Anyone recognise this heraldry?
Edgar De Blieck
Any expertise would be welcomed.
EDEB.
PS It's certainly puzzling me, so I hope the rec.puzzlers won't object to the cross post.
Adrian Bailey
news:c4a2k2$38p$1...@titan.btinternet.com...
> I've put a picture of heraldry I'm interested in finding out about at
http://www.herald.netfirms.com.
>
> Any expertise would be welcomed.
My first impression is that it's the arms of Kassa/Kosice (Slovakia). Do you
have any information about the artwork?
Adrian
Adrian Bailey
news:sp0ac.408$ky4...@news-binary.blueyonder.co.uk...
I may be barking up the wrong tree, but I've realised (better late than
never) that Kosice's arms (and those of several other places in the region)
are based on the arms of the House of Arpad, which ruled Hungary from the
10th to the 13th Century. The red and white stripes are still incorporated
in the Hungarian coat of arms.
Adrian
Edgar De Blieck
> you
> > have any information about the artwork?
OK - It is a late fifteenth Century portrait in the Flemish style by the so called Master of the Life of the Virgin. (Art Gallery
Munich has the original).
EDEB
Derek Howard
The shield and a similar crest appear in the "Gelre" armorial of
Ruyers King of Arms (dated to around 1370-1395 and preserved here in
Brussels in the Bibliothèque Royale) where they were then attributed
to Her Jan v. Mehersten (Jean de Mersch): Arms : Barry of six Argent
and Gules. Crest : A stags head langued Gules.
See <http://www.heraldique-europeenne.org/Armoriaux/Gelre/F29r.htm>
I have not yet checked my printed copy of the roll to see whether the
stags neck is also barry but if not it may still be a candidate for
the right family.
I presume that they must have been held by a descendant of his in the
period 1465-1480 when the Master of the Life of the Virgin was active
around Cologne.
Mersch is in Luxembourg (the castle is used as the town hall) and not
impossibly far from Cologne. A photo of the castle is at
<http://www.luxalbum.com/communes/mersch/mersch/Mersch2.jpg> but I
cannot make out the arms over the gate. However,help could be at hand
as the castle is also the base for the Luxembourg Society of Genealogy
and Heraldry <http://www.genealogie.lu/> who should be worth
contacting.
Is it possible to identify the collar worn by the sitter?
Derek Howard
James Dempster
>"Edgar De Blieck" <Debl...@btopenworld.com> wrote in message news:<c4ag8p$bgf$1...@hercules.btinternet.com>...
>> > > My first impression is that it's the arms of Kassa/Kosice (Slovakia). Do
>> you
>> > > have any information about the artwork?
>>
>>
>> OK - It is a late fifteenth Century portrait in the Flemish style by the so called Master of the Life of the Virgin. (Art Gallery
>> Munich has the original).
>>
>> EDEB
>
>The shield and a similar crest appear in the "Gelre" armorial of
>Ruyers King of Arms (dated to around 1370-1395 and preserved here in
>Brussels in the Bibliothèque Royale) where they were then attributed
>to Her Jan v. Mehersten (Jean de Mersch): Arms : Barry of six Argent
>and Gules. Crest : A stags head langued Gules.
>See <http://www.heraldique-europeenne.org/Armoriaux/Gelre/F29r.htm>
>I have not yet checked my printed copy of the roll to see whether the
>stags neck is also barry but if not it may still be a candidate for
>the right family.
I've just checked my Gelre and the stag's neck is barry.
James
James Dempster (remove nospam to reply by email)
You know you've had a good night
when you wake up
and someone's outlining you in chalk.
Klaas Padberg Evenboer
This coat of arms belongs to the noble Cologne family Schwartz genannt
Hirsch (named Deer).
In my opinion it could be Johann Schwartz, 'Buergermeister' of Cologne or
his elder brother Everhardt, 'Stadtrentmeister'. They both lived at the end
of the 15th Century. The family was extinct around 1590. (A. Fahne:
Geschichte der Koelnischen, Juelichschen und Bergischen Geschlechter. Publ.
Cologne, J.M. Heberle 1848, page 396-397).
Their coat of arms can also be found in the Koelhoffsche Chronik / Koelner
Chronik, an early print of 1499, and in the Redinghoven Armorial
(Redinghoven's Wappenbuch), dated ca. 1440, now in the State Library in
Munnich on fol. 316a - 8 and 18.
The Master of the Life of the Virgin (Meister des Marienlebens) was active
in Cologne in the period 1463-1480.
Dear Edgar,
Hope this will solve it.
Kind regards,
Klaas Padberg Evenboer
"Edgar De Blieck" <Debl...@btopenworld.com> schreef in bericht
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Edgar De Blieck
"Klaas Padberg Evenboer" <academi...@planet.nl> wrote in message news:c4ob65$1sa$1...@reader08.wxs.nl...
> "Die Swartze die me noempt vam Hirtz"
> This coat of arms belongs to the noble Cologne family Schwartz genannt
> Hirsch (named Deer).
>
> In my opinion it could be Johann Schwartz, 'Buergermeister' of Cologne or
> his elder brother Everhardt, 'Stadtrentmeister'. They both lived at the end
> of the 15th Century. The family was extinct around 1590. (A. Fahne:
> Geschichte der Koelnischen, Juelichschen und Bergischen Geschlechter. Publ.
> Cologne, J.M. Heberle 1848, page 396-397).
>
> Their coat of arms can also be found in the Koelhoffsche Chronik / Koelner
> Chronik, an early print of 1499, and in the Redinghoven Armorial
> (Redinghoven's Wappenbuch), dated ca. 1440, now in the State Library in
> Munnich on fol. 316a - 8 and 18.
>
> The Master of the Life of the Virgin (Meister des Marienlebens) was active
> in Cologne in the period 1463-1480.
>
> Dear Edgar,
>
> Hope this will solve it.
>
> Kind regards,
> Klaas Padberg Evenboer
Thanks a lot Klaas. That seems pretty convincing to me.
EDEB.
Klaas Padberg Evenboer
the name used in J. Th. de Raadt, Sceaux Armories des Pays Bas et des
Pays Avoisinants, Brussels, Oscar Schepens 1899, Vol. II, pp.85.
Johann vamme Hirtze, chevalier (Ritter), citzen of Cologne, 1345
Johann vamme Hirtze, 'koirbusschof' of St. Serverin in Cologne, 1368
A. Fahne states that they were called Schwartz (lat. niger), and later were
named Hirsch/Hirtz.
I did check the reply of Derek Howard. He is fully correct in stating that
the arms of Jean de Mersch/Johann von Mersch is identical with that of
the above mentioned family.
To make it more confusing he is listed in the Armorial Gelre as a vasal of
the
Archbishop of Cologne and next to other nobles of the city of Cologne like
Troyen, Palast, Raitz von Frentz, Birklyn, Cleyngedanck gen. Mommersloch,
Spiegel, Hardevuyst, Stave, Overstolz / Lyskirchen, Juden, Roitstock
How can two different families, living in the same territory have an
identical
coat of arms?
So I checked it once again:
'her jan van mehertzen' must be 'her jan vamme hertzen' or in modernday
German: Herr Johann vom Hirtze.
This is not only a mistake made by Paul Adam-Even in his 1961 published
L'armorial universel du Heraut Gelre. It's also seen in the Armorial
Bellenville:
h jan van mehrtsem, translated by Leon Jequier as Jean van Mersch. But
actually Jean van Mersch has a complete different coat of arms: un fasce de
six pieces, de 1er chargee a dextre d'une merlette.
We have to see if this mistake is also been made in the new facsimile of
Armorial Bellenville, that will come out this month.
http://www.editions-du-gui.fr
Regards,
Klaas Padberg Evenboer
"Edgar De Blieck" <Debl...@btopenworld.com> schreef in bericht
news:c4oj98$qkj$1...@titan.btinternet.com...
Derek Howard
> On 30 Mar 2004 00:30:09 -0800, dho...@skynet.be (Derek Howard) wrote:
>
> >"Edgar De Blieck" <Debl...@btopenworld.com> wrote in message news:<c4ag8p$bgf$1...@hercules.btinternet.com>...
> >> > > My first impression is that it's the arms of Kassa/Kosice (Slovakia). Do
> you
> >> > > have any information about the artwork?
> >>
> >>
> >> OK - It is a late fifteenth Century portrait in the Flemish style by the so called Master of the Life of the Virgin. (Art Gallery
> >> Munich has the original).
> >>
> >> EDEB
> >
> >The shield and a similar crest appear in the "Gelre" armorial of
> >Ruyers King of Arms (dated to around 1370-1395 and preserved here in
> >Brussels in the Bibliothèque Royale) where they were then attributed
> >to Her Jan v. Mehersten (Jean de Mersch): Arms : Barry of six Argent
> >and Gules. Crest : A stags head langued Gules.
> >See <http://www.heraldique-europeenne.org/Armoriaux/Gelre/F29r.htm>
> >I have not yet checked my printed copy of the roll to see whether the
> >stags neck is also barry but if not it may still be a candidate for
> >the right family.
>
> I've just checked my Gelre and the stag's neck is barry.
>
> James
Thanks. I have had a good look in Gelre and note that there are in
fact two references to the arms and crest that are both identical to
those illustrated in the painting. There is also a cross reference to
De Raadt's "Sceaux armoriée des Pays-Bas et des pays avoisinants
(Belgique, Royaume de Pays-Bas, Luxembourg, Allemagne, France)", vol
3, page 472 where I find, under a series of entries for Mersch, that
Her Jan van Mehertsce, cross referenced back to Gelre) aka the ref to
Jean de Mersh above, is described as "homme de l'évéque de Cologne".
It would appear that the family from Mersch in Luxembourg also had
direct ties to the Bishop of Cologne.
Given that their shield and crest are identical to the representation
under question at <http://www.herald.netfirms.com>, I cannot be as
cetain as Klaas that it represents the Schwartz family. Were the two
perhaps related? Would it be possible perhaps to have a scan of the
appropriate illustration in the "Geschichte der Koelnischen,
Juelichschen und Bergischen Geschlechter" and "Koelhoffsche Chronik /
Koelner Chronik", and/or Redinghoven Armorial?
Derek Howard
Klaas Padberg Evenboer
I will send you some scans of the arms.
Today I also prepared my research concerning this family for the
Heraldicum Disputationes, an heraldic magazine printed in Belgium
for the flemish and dutch readers. It will appear in May this year.
De Raadt has an entry for Jan van Mehertscen referring to Gelre.
Also stating that he is a vasal of the Arcbishop of Cologne.
On the other hand he does not give a seal for this person or his
family. Just because the real Mersch coat of arms is totally different.
Kind regards,
Klaas Padberg Evenboer
Edgar De Blieck
Klaas Padberg Evenboer
If you give me your address I will send you my article that will
appear in Heraldicum Disputationes, Jaargang 9, Nr. 2,
Publ. Homunculus, Wijnegem, Belgium.
The editor in chief is really pleased with the article. I probably
will translate it in German to be put in the 'Herold Magazine'
of which I am a member.
Kind regards,
Klaas Padberg Evenboer
"Edgar De Blieck" <Debl...@btopenworld.com> schreef in bericht
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Klaas Padberg Evenboer
I did some more research and just found the answer:
The coat of arms of the Mersh family is different in colour. It's gold and
blue. And their helm is topped with horns of a goat/ibex.
Source:
Otto Gruber: Wappen des Mittelrheinisch-Moselländischen Adels.
Printed in Landeskundliche Vierteljahrsblätter 1962-1965 and 1967,
Part 1, Trier. pp. 152, 153: Johan von Mersch, 1404.
Kind regards,
Klaas Padberg Evenboer
> 3, page 472 where I find, under a series of entries for Mersch, that