Times Cryptic clues

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Tim Chow

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May 10, 2016, 2:04:55 PM5/10/16
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My colleagues and I have been doing some old jumbo cryptic crosswords from
The Times and a few clues have stumped us even after we have seen the answer.
I was wondering if someone could explain the following to us. Thanks!

Antagonism evident in time? ENMITY

Place that's dry and clean: York, perhaps DUST BOWL

Tories are keeping banker in fold CONCERTINA

Tim+

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May 10, 2016, 2:56:38 PM5/10/16
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Tim Chow <tchow...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> My colleagues and I have been doing some old jumbo cryptic crosswords from
> The Times and a few clues have stumped us even after we have seen the answer.
> I was wondering if someone could explain the following to us. Thanks!
>
> Antagonism evident in time? ENMITY

Stumped

>
> Place that's dry and clean: York, perhaps DUST BOWL
>

Clean = "dust", York = "bowl" (to bowl someone out with a Yorker).

> Tories are keeping banker in fold CONCERTINA
>

Is there an "a" missing from the clue? "Keeping banker in A fold" works.

Con = "Tories", cert (as in certainty) = "banker" (a sure thing, something
that can be banked on), then ina.

Tim


--
Trolls and troll feeders go in my killfile

Sparafucile

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May 10, 2016, 3:07:57 PM5/10/16
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I have found that the easiest way to understand Times Jumbo Cryptics is
to partake of copious amounts of mind-altering substances. You won't
necessarily gain an insight into the workings of the clues but you
won't really care.

--
Pari siamo!... io la lingua, egli ha il pugnale

Madrigal Gurneyhalt

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May 10, 2016, 4:24:21 PM5/10/16
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On Tue, 10 May 2016 11:04:54 -0700, Tim Chow wrote:

>
> Antagonism evident in time? ENMITY

Edited by idiots, I suspect this is meant to be an anagram of 'in tyme'
which is ye olde worlde spelling, of course. Rubbish indicator if so but I
can't see any other even vaguely logical interpretation.


>
> Place that's dry and clean: York, perhaps DUST BOWL
clean = dust
york, perhaps = bowl, ie. deliver a yorker in cricket
>
> Tories are keeping banker in fold CONCERTINA

tories = con
are = a (it's in all the best dictionaries though I've never actually seen
it used in real life)
banker = cert
in = in

Tim+

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May 10, 2016, 4:42:09 PM5/10/16
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Madrigal Gurneyhalt <Madrigal_...@live.com> wrote:

> tories = con
> are = a (it's in all the best dictionaries though I've never actually seen
> it used in real life)

Doh! Shoulda seen that one.

Tim


--
Trolls AND TROLL FEEDERS all go in my kill file

David Akenhead

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May 10, 2016, 5:10:26 PM5/10/16
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On Tuesday, May 10, 2016 at 5:54:21 PM UTC-2:30, Madrigal Gurneyhalt wrote:
> On Tue, 10 May 2016 11:04:54 -0700, Tim Chow wrote:
>
> >
> > Antagonism evident in time? ENMITY
>
> Edited by idiots

Wrong again! Cryptic association

Time is the enemy! I thought you knew that!

Tim+

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May 10, 2016, 5:43:28 PM5/10/16
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You've lost me. How do you get from "time is the enemy" to "enmity"?

David Akenhead

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May 10, 2016, 6:21:18 PM5/10/16
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Time in cryptic parlance is "the enemy"

"Antagonism" is a definition of "enmity" employing "time"

Madrigal Gurneyhalt

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May 10, 2016, 6:51:28 PM5/10/16
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Can't say that it comes in my top 10 time associations, I'm afraid. It's a
poor clue nevertheless. If time is my enemy then the enmity is mine not
time's, time being an abstraction incapable of enmity or any other
emotion. So enmity is not 'evident in time' at all. I think I'm sticking
to my initial assessment of the editing.

David Akenhead

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May 10, 2016, 9:26:39 PM5/10/16
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Would others agree with you? I have my doubts.

rthe...@hotmail.com

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May 11, 2016, 6:47:41 AM5/11/16
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On Wednesday, May 11, 2016 at 2:26:39 AM UTC+1, David Akenhead wrote:
>
> Would others agree with you? I have my doubts.

I agree with him.

David Akenhead

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May 11, 2016, 10:47:30 AM5/11/16
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I concede! Time is showing its age!

Tim Chow

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May 11, 2016, 1:23:58 PM5/11/16
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Thanks for your answers! But I'm afraid I don't understand "banker = cert."
Can you please elaborate?

Tim+

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May 11, 2016, 2:16:15 PM5/11/16
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Dictionaries are useful. ;-)

From Chambers:

bankˈer noun
A person who keeps a bank
A person employed in banking business
A betting card game
A certainty, something that can be banked on or betted on
A result forecast the same in all the entries on a coupon as being a
certainty (football pools)

[Chambers Dictionary (iOS) © Chambers Harrap Publishers Ltd.]

Madrigal Gurneyhalt

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May 12, 2016, 2:30:29 PM5/12/16
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On Wed, 11 May 2016 18:12:41 +0000, Tim+ wrote:

> Tim Chow <tchow...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>> On Tuesday, May 10, 2016 at 4:24:21 PM UTC-4, Madrigal Gurneyhalt
>> wrote:
>>> On Tue, 10 May 2016 11:04:54 -0700, Tim Chow wrote:
>>>> Tories are keeping banker in fold CONCERTINA
>>>
>>> tories = con are = a (it's in all the best dictionaries though I've
>>> never actually seen it used in real life)
>>> banker = cert in = in
>>
>> Thanks for your answers! But I'm afraid I don't understand "banker =
>> cert."
>> Can you please elaborate?
>>
>>
> Dictionaries are useful. ;-)

They are but it might be it may be 'cert' that needs clarifying! ;o)

cert, abbreviation of certainty, as in "I've put five pounds on a dead
cert in the 3.30 at Kempton"

David Akenhead

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May 22, 2016, 7:38:44 PM5/22/16
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On Thursday, May 12, 2016 at 4:00:29 PM UTC-2:30, Madrigal Gurneyhalt wrote:

Madrigal, how are you with this indirect I've just come across from Jumbo book 13? I don't like these much.

Wine container sent back unopened (7)

RETSINA

Ed Enstrom

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May 22, 2016, 11:59:43 PM5/22/16
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Why do you call it "indirect"? I would call it a reversed beheadment.

Ed

Madrigal Gurneyhalt

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May 23, 2016, 6:48:51 AM5/23/16
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On Sun, 22 May 2016 23:59:44 -0400, Ed Enstrom wrote:

> Why do you call it "indirect"? I would call it a reversed beheadment.
>

As would I (only I'd call it a beheading). Reverse [c]ANISTER seems fine
to me.

Tim Chow

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May 23, 2016, 11:31:33 AM5/23/16
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Thanks to all who answered my previous queries! I guess I'll continue to use
this thread for further queries about Times Jumbo clues.

The latest one that has us bewildered is:

Big tie's vital -- should it be pinned? (4-5) SEMI-FINAL

Duke

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May 23, 2016, 11:45:56 AM5/23/16
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I think this is SEMINAL ("vital") "pinning" IF ("should it be").

On a side note, the UK usage of "tie" for "upcoming match" ("I'm looking forward to the cup tie between Stoke and Everton") doesn't appear in the US.

David Akenhead

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May 23, 2016, 4:25:26 PM5/23/16
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Yup! What was I thinking! I wasn't - it was in the wee small hours, and I'd been overworking... no excuse

Steve Ball

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May 24, 2016, 7:22:37 AM5/24/16
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Ed Enstrom <nos...@optonline.net> wrote:
> Why do you call it "indirect"? I would call it a reversed beheadment.

It's indirect in the sense that you first must turn "container" into
CANISTER before beheading and reversing it.

> Ed
>
> On 5/22/2016 7:38 PM, David Akenhead wrote:
>> On Thursday, May 12, 2016 at 4:00:29 PM UTC-2:30, Madrigal Gurneyhalt wrote:
>>
>> Madrigal, how are you with this indirect I've just come across from
>> Jumbo book 13? I don't like these much.
>>
>> Wine container sent back unopened (7)
>>
>> RETSINA
--
Steve = : ^ )

--- news://freenews.netfront.net/ - complaints: ne...@netfront.net ---

Tim+

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May 24, 2016, 8:50:09 AM5/24/16
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Steve Ball <prett...@eveythi.ng> wrote:
> Ed Enstrom <nos...@optonline.net> wrote:
>> Why do you call it "indirect"? I would call it a reversed beheadment.
>
> It's indirect in the sense that you first must turn "container" into
> CANISTER before beheading and reversing it.

Turning one word into another is the norm of course for crosswords. I think
it's the degree of manipulation that determines a clue's "indirectness".
Simple reversal, sticking another word in the middle, beheading, de-tailing
are all par for the course.

Using an anagram of the clued word would be a step too far for most folk I
think. (A common Wee Stinker ploy).

David Akenhead

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May 24, 2016, 8:55:29 AM5/24/16
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That was what I was getting at, but 'canister' for 'container' would make no sense of the definition; and Madrigal, has a point too. It seems some indirects are permissible, of which there are multiple examples, but things like indirect anagrams are by and large verboten. I wonder what Ximenes (Derrick Macnutt to the uninitiated) would have said about this? I know he wasn't keen on the subject of indirects, too!

Steve = : ^ )

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May 24, 2016, 7:27:19 PM5/24/16
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On Tuesday, May 24, 2016 at 10:50:09 PM UTC+10, Tim+ wrote:
> Steve Ball <prett...@eveythi.ng> wrote:
> > Ed Enstrom <nos...@optonline.net> wrote:
> >> Why do you call it "indirect"? I would call it a reversed beheadment.
> >
> > It's indirect in the sense that you first must turn "container" into
> > CANISTER before beheading and reversing it.
>
> Turning one word into another is the norm of course for crosswords. I think
> it's the degree of manipulation that determines a clue's "indirectness".

Correct. And a two-step process – i.e. convert one word into another, then use that word as fodder for some process – is called 'indirect'.

> Simple reversal, sticking another word in the middle, beheading, de-tailing
> are all par for the course.

> Using an anagram of the clued word would be a step too far for most folk I
> think. (A common Wee Stinker ploy).

Yes, indirect anagrams are generally frowned on. Indirect reversals, etc. less so, but they're still indirect.

Tense about meal's final course (8) is indirect. Stressed about meal's final course (8) isn't.

David Akenhead

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May 28, 2016, 6:35:06 AM5/28/16
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Anyone help me with this one?

Hamlet character's empty oratory doing for sick traveller (7)

VOYAGER

I got the def. and I got the OY bit but the rest? some sort of substitution?

David Akenhead

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May 28, 2016, 6:43:50 AM5/28/16
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and here's another for good measure ...

Shocking way of treating dogs repelled police vet (7)

Apart from vet, haven't a clue!

INSPECT

Tim+

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May 28, 2016, 7:04:24 AM5/28/16
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Character from a hamlet = villager. Substitute "ill" with oy.

Madrigal Gurneyhalt

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May 28, 2016, 7:05:01 AM5/28/16
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On Sat, 28 May 2016 03:35:05 -0700, David Akenhead wrote:

> Hamlet character's empty oratory doing for sick traveller (7)
>
> VOYAGER

VILLAGER with OY replacing ILL

Tim+

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May 28, 2016, 7:06:10 AM5/28/16
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PSNI = police service of Northern Ireland. ECT = shocking treatment

Madrigal Gurneyhalt

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May 28, 2016, 7:11:31 AM5/28/16
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On Sat, 28 May 2016 03:43:49 -0700, David Akenhead wrote:

> Shocking way of treating dogs repelled police vet (7)

shocking way of treating = ECT (electro convulsive therapy)
dogs = follows
police = PSNI (Police Service of Northern Ireland)
repelled = reversed

Tim Chow

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Jul 26, 2016, 7:47:08 PM7/26/16
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On Tuesday, May 10, 2016 at 2:04:55 PM UTC-4, I wrote:
> My colleagues and I have been doing some old jumbo cryptic crosswords from
> The Times and a few clues have stumped us even after we have seen the answer.
> I was wondering if someone could explain the following to us. Thanks!

Here are a couple more we just encountered:

Find out about doctor breaking law RUMBLE

(doctor = MB and law = RULE, but how is RUMBLE = find out about?)

Pride of multinational tourists LIONS

(pride = lions but...multinational tourists?)

---
Tim Chow

Duke

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Jul 26, 2016, 9:25:38 PM7/26/16
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> Find out about doctor breaking law RUMBLE
>
> (doctor = MB and law = RULE, but how is RUMBLE = find out about?)

That's just a British expression. "I rumbled to it" = "I found out about it."


Luciano Ward

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Jul 26, 2016, 10:35:33 PM7/26/16
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> Pride of multinational tourists LIONS
>
> (pride = lions but...multinational tourists?)
>
> ---
> Tim Chow

Reference to British and Irish Lions, rugby union team comprising players from (potentially) Scotland, Wales, Ireland and England.

Collins has:

Tourist: a person travelling abroad as a member of a sports team that is playing a series of usually international matches

musika

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Jul 27, 2016, 5:07:57 AM7/27/16
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I don't think you can "rumble to" anything.
"I rumbled their plan."
"They were rumbled as they made their escape."


--
Ray
UK

Duke

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Jul 27, 2016, 5:29:48 PM7/27/16
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Me: That's just a British expression. "I rumbled to it" = "I found out about it."

> Ray: I don't think you can "rumble to" anything.
"I rumbled their plan."
"They were rumbled as they made their escape."

--
Ray
UK

You're right. My mistake.
Duke
USA

Madrigal Gurneyhalt

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Jul 28, 2016, 10:38:26 AM7/28/16
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On Wed, 27 Jul 2016 14:29:47 -0700, Duke wrote:

> Me: That's just a British expression. "I rumbled to it" = "I found out
> about it."
>
>> Ray: I don't think you can "rumble to" anything.
> "I rumbled their plan."
> "They were rumbled as they made their escape."

Um .. er .. he's right, you're not (it would be "I rumbled it" or "I have
it rumbled"). How is this supposed to add to the discussion?

Tim Chow

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Aug 25, 2017, 11:44:06 AM8/25/17
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On Tuesday, May 10, 2016 at 2:04:55 PM UTC-4, I wrote:
> My colleagues and I have been doing some old jumbo cryptic crosswords from
> The Times and a few clues have stumped us even after we have seen the answer.
> I was wondering if someone could explain the following to us. Thanks!

Been a while since we've been totally stumped but we just ran into this one:

Grandfather if neglected may protest GO SLOW

---
Tim Chow

Luciano Ward

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Aug 25, 2017, 5:53:02 PM8/25/17
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Grandfather if neglected may / protest

Grandfather (clock) might go slow if neglected; also to go slow means to participate in a specific form of industrial action or protest.

Luciano

Steve = : ^ )

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Aug 25, 2017, 11:05:14 PM8/25/17
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On Saturday, August 26, 2017 at 7:53:02 AM UTC+10, Luciano Ward wrote:

> Grandfather if neglected may / protest
>
> Grandfather (clock) might go slow if neglected; also to go slow means to participate in a specific form of industrial action or protest.

No doubt that's the intent, but I believe a grandfather clock has only two speeds: (1) one tick per second and (2) stopped.

Tim Chow

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Aug 27, 2017, 1:20:48 PM8/27/17
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On Friday, August 25, 2017 at 5:53:02 PM UTC-4, Luciano Ward wrote:
> Grandfather (clock) might go slow if neglected; also to go slow means to
> participate in a specific form of industrial action or protest.

Grandfather *clock*! Didn't think of that. Thanks!

---
Tim Chow

Madrigal Gurneyhalt

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Aug 30, 2017, 8:49:57 AM8/30/17
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On Fri, 25 Aug 2017 14:53:01 -0700, Luciano Ward wrote:

>
> Grandfather if neglected may / protest
>
> Grandfather (clock) might go slow if neglected; also to go slow means to
> participate in a specific form of industrial action or protest.
>

If so, I'm completely underwhelmed, and not just because I think 'may' an
inferior choice in this context! Don't think that's fair at all!

Tim Chow

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Nov 2, 2017, 1:42:23 PM11/2/17
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On Tuesday, May 10, 2016 at 2:04:55 PM UTC-4, Tim Chow wrote:
> My colleagues and I have been doing some old jumbo cryptic crosswords from
> The Times and a few clues have stumped us even after we have seen the answer.
> I was wondering if someone could explain the following to us. Thanks!

Looking good in set pieces? TELEGENIC

"Looking good" is the straight definition, but we don't understand the rest.

---
Tim Chow

Duke

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Nov 2, 2017, 2:44:49 PM11/2/17
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I bet "set pieces" means "pieces seen on a television set."

Madrigal Gurneyhalt

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Nov 2, 2017, 5:52:42 PM11/2/17
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On Thu, 02 Nov 2017 11:44:48 -0700, Duke wrote:

> I bet "set pieces" means "pieces seen on a television set."

Yup, a cryptic definition carried out with the usual grace and elegance of
the Times setters (which is to say without grace and elegance at all)!

Tim Chow

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Nov 2, 2017, 6:49:29 PM11/2/17
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On Thursday, November 2, 2017 at 2:44:49 PM UTC-4, Duke wrote:
> I bet "set pieces" means "pieces seen on a television set."

I'm afraid I still don't understand. Suppose you are right. How
does that give TELEGENIC?

---
Tim Chow

David A

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Nov 2, 2017, 9:50:09 PM11/2/17
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I regard this as below par too, and certainly NOT one of mine!

Madrigal Gurneyhalt

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Nov 3, 2017, 9:25:06 AM11/3/17
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It's a cryptic definition, ie. a definition only clue in which part of the
definition is obscured by a pun or other piece of wordplay. The straight
definition is ...

having an appearance or manner that is appealing on television

... so the cryptic definition disguises 'on television' behind 'in set
pieces' leaving it to the solver to recognise the pun and reconstruct the
definition.

As I said, this is a poor example of the technique which is in any case
somewhat controversial, to the extent that it is forbidden in American
cryptics. The classic example from the past is ...

A wicked thing (6)

.... though that would be considered somewhat unsophisticated by modern
standards. Other examples would be ....

Event for which one is late (7)

The growth of the fairy tale (9)

A letter for Socrates (5)

Give them a go and see if the penny drops, on which note ....

A fall in realised assets (3,5,5)

Tim Chow

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Nov 30, 2017, 9:23:18 PM11/30/17
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On Tuesday, May 10, 2016 at 2:04:55 PM UTC-4, Tim Chow wrote:
> My colleagues and I have been doing some old jumbo cryptic crosswords from
> The Times and a few clues have stumped us even after we have seen the answer.
> I was wondering if someone could explain the following to us. Thanks!

Here's our latest head-scratcher:

Old item presented by an orchestra: ALSO

We got that "an orchestra" = "A LSO (London Symphony Orchestra)" but what
about "Old item"?

---
Tim Chow

Madrigal Gurneyhalt

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Dec 1, 2017, 7:04:51 AM12/1/17
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The 'old' is presumably an indication of archaism but this usage is still
valid. It refers to an additional item that may have been overlooked or
forgotten principally. So, for example, "I haven't printed the agenda yet
because I understand there are some alsos of which I've yet to be
notified." It can also refer to a person, especially apposite in view of
the recent #metoo publicity, "I'm an also"!

Incidentally, 'also' is listed under 'item' in the Chambers Crossword
Dictionary although strangely the meaning is not included in the Chambers
Dictionary.

Luciano Ward

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Dec 1, 2017, 10:39:25 AM12/1/17
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My Chambers has 'item' as an (archaic) adverb, meaning 'also' (online Latin dictionaries confirm this meaning of 'item').

Luciano

Rob

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Dec 1, 2017, 11:08:27 AM12/1/17
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On Friday, 1 December 2017 15:39:25 UTC, Luciano Ward wrote:

> My Chambers has 'item' as an (archaic) adverb, meaning 'also' (online Latin dictionaries confirm this meaning of 'item').
>
> Luciano

Yes, it's (old-fashioned) "item" meaning (modern) "also", not the other way round.

Collins dictionary doesn't even call it archaic, just lists it as sense 6: "(adj) likewise; also".

Tim Chow

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Dec 1, 2021, 6:17:03 PM12/1/21
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It's been a while since I've posted to this thread...

On Tuesday, May 10, 2016 at 2:04:55 PM UTC-4, Tim Chow wrote:
> My colleagues and I have been doing some old jumbo cryptic crosswords from
> The Times and a few clues have stumped us even after we have seen the answer.
> I was wondering if someone could explain the following to us. Thanks!

King's enemy active, bringing soldiers round him, properly following order
OLIVER CROMWELL

Do penance for previously holy female renowned for mischief
EXPIATE

Duke

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Dec 2, 2021, 1:10:38 PM12/2/21
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On Wednesday, December 1, 2021 at 3:17:03 PM UTC-8, Tim Chow wrote:
> It's been a while since I've posted to this thread...
> On Tuesday, May 10, 2016 at 2:04:55 PM UTC-4, Tim Chow wrote:
> > My colleagues and I have been doing some old jumbo cryptic crosswords from
> > The Times and a few clues have stumped us even after we have seen the answer.
> > I was wondering if someone could explain the following to us. Thanks!
> King's enemy active, bringing soldiers round him, properly following order
> OLIVER CROMWELL
>
"Active" is LIVE, the "soldiers" are OR, a British convention denoting "other ranks" (I guess corresponding roughly to American "enlisted personnel"). Then WELL ("properly") follows OM, the British "Order of Merit," one of those awards that gives you a medal and letters after your name. Cromwell is defined as "King's enemy."


> Do penance for previously holy female renowned for mischief
> EXPIATE

"holy" clues PI, apparently short for "pious." ATE (two syllables) is "an ancient Greek goddess personifying the fatal blindness or recklessness that produces crime and the divine punishment that follows it" (from dictionary.com). And of course "previously" gives us EX, and the definition is "do penance for."

Tim Chow

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Dec 2, 2021, 6:05:00 PM12/2/21
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On Thursday, December 2, 2021 at 1:10:38 PM UTC-5, Duke wrote:
> On Wednesday, December 1, 2021 at 3:17:03 PM UTC-8, Tim Chow wrote:
> > King's enemy active, bringing soldiers round him, properly following order
> > OLIVER CROMWELL
> >
> "Active" is LIVE, the "soldiers" are OR, a British convention denoting "other ranks" (I guess corresponding roughly to American "enlisted personnel"). Then WELL ("properly") follows OM, the British "Order of Merit," one of those awards that gives you a medal and letters after your name. Cromwell is defined as "King's enemy."

Thanks for this! But where do the letters CR come from?

---
Tim Chow

Luciano Ward

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Dec 2, 2021, 6:45:33 PM12/2/21
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I believe it's an abbreviation for 'Charles Rex' or 'Carolus Rex', referring to King Charles I ('him'), who came to a bad end under said enemy.

David A

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Dec 8, 2021, 6:54:05 PM12/8/21
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Good call, Luciano!
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