Koi "dirtier" than goldfish?
Daniel L. Randall
I've been reading this group and cruising some web sites, and have
read a few times that koi put a greater strain on filtration than goldfish,
inch for inch. I will accept this, but it doesn't seem to make much sense to
me since they are so closely related as to be able to interbreed. (Or is it
analogous to a thoroughbred vs. a donkey? I understand thoroughbreds
generally needs better food and more of it than common donkeys and the
like.) Is this true, then, that a 6" koi creates more waste than a 6"
goldfish? Or are they just referring to the fact that koi can get up to 2'
long and goldfish don't?
If this is true, then what is the reason? I am planning on a
5'x6'x2.5' (just over 500 gal.) indoor pond when our house is built, and I am
now having doubts as to whether I should have koi or goldfish. One source
says it will hold 7-8" inches of koi, and another says 56". Frankly, if the
former is correct, then I'd rather keep goldfish and be able to have a few
fish rather than only one koi.
Also, in case anyone needs to know, I am currently planning on a pump which
sucks 600 gph throught a sponge and 2" pvc, puts it through a filter, and then
back across the top of the water from 2" pvc.
Please only post responses to this group.
Thanks,
Dan
Daniel L. Randall
donna / stephie
In article <572cf2$u...@decius.ultra.net>,
Dan - No, I don't think koi are "dirtier" than goldfish, pound for pound.
However, as you observe, koi do grow to 2 feet in length or more, and a 2 foot
koi is NOT the same as two 1 foot long fish. Mass is significantly greater,
and therefore waste would be greater.
In addition, it can be difficult to grow water plants when you have koi - they
do like to dig and nibble; therefore they would lose whatever natural
filtration the plants provide, which can be considerable. Note that I said
difficult to grow plants, not impossible!
However, having said all that, things are not necessary lost. I currently have
a 1200 gallon pond (including filter) that supports easily a dozen koi 18" or
larger, and an exploding population of goldfish. My set-up is this: the koi
are in the pond itself; the goldfish are kept in my biofilter, which also
houses my hyacinths, umbrella plant, cattails, parrots feather, elephants ear,
and whatever else I can get to grow at the moment.
Anyway, after all that, I don't think you would be limited to only 1 koi vs a
few goldfish. The choice is yours.
donna
Tucson Koi Society
http:/www.azstarnet.com/~scaruso/tks/tks.htm
dia...@aol.com
Hi Daniel. I think 6" koi would probably produce more waste than 6"
goldfish. I know young koi put more strain on a filtration system than
older bonsai (intentionally stunted) koi of the same size, even when none
are being fed. Their capacity for growth is so tremendous, perhaps their
metabolisms are just higher. My pond is 5'x10' (exclusive of wide planting
shelves) and I'm in the process of replacing my koi with goldfish which I
feel will be healthier and happier in a pond of this size. It can be a
heartbreaking process, though, saying goodby to a koi, so if I were you,
I'd start with and stick with goldfish until I had a bigger pond. Also, I
think a sponge filter like you describe would leave a lot of large waste
in the pond where your fish can get at it. It might be better to draw it
into an easily drained settling area before it goes through the foam.
Would you be using air to power your filter? (I'm curious, as I'm
currently trying to design an air pump powered filtration system for my
pond.) A good place to find basic info on filter design (you've probably
found it already) is www.koiusa.com. They also have some great books for
sale. Good luck! --Diana
P.S. Anybody know of a dealer who sells comets that look like sanke koi?
Paul Lu
Diana:
> P.S. Anybody know of a dealer who sells comets that look like sanke koi?
I've had good luck picking from the feeder tank
several very good qulity Sarassa/Comet that has
nice round red spot on their head.
However, it's hard to get good black color.
Even the pet stores don't get to get Sanke
often, not to mention good ones.
Good luck.
Paul
Dan and Kristen
>I think a sponge filter like you describe would leave a lot of large waste
>in the pond where your fish can get at it. It might be better to draw it
>into an easily drained settling area before it goes through the foam.
I am planning on sloping the floor to a central area where the sponge will be.
I thought that would be enough with a weekly vacuum of that area. The sponge
part is not necessarily a set part of the plan like the main filtration is. I
would be willing to consider other ways of drawing water. I didn't consider a
separate settling tank because although I made provisions for two "wells",
one is to house the filter/pump and the other is to be a sink with hot and
cold water for ease of maintenance. I figured this would be alright since
permanent setups I've seen in stores were set up this way. But let me see, I
may be able to easily change the design to include a small settling tank.
>Would you be using air to power your filter? (I'm curious, as I'm
>currently trying to design an air pump powered filtration system for my
>pond.)
I was planning on finding a cannister-type electric filter/pump pumping
400-500 gph. (The only one I've found so far is by Eheim). I wanted to place
it in a sink-like well which would catch any water coming from a leak in the
hose or pump. Near the water line would be an overflow hole to return the
leaked water to the pond, so that a break in the line wouldn't empty the pond,
fill the house. Problem is, that might submerge the pump and destroy it or
electrocute the fish if it were placed too low, or if I got a submersible
pump, I would be required to keep the well constantly filled with water.
Any further thoughts, anyone?
>Sanke comets?
Never seen them. The closest I've seen is what I consider a bad-quality
shubunkin; i.e. no blue and purple, etc., just white, black, and red.
Kristen
Daniel Hershman
Koi are inch for inch much more massive- it is body mass that accounts
for the waste products. Also, Koi are real gluttons and are very good
at begging from their owners.
It sounds like your pond is really too small for koi. They need lots
of room.. I'd stick with goldfish. A combination of comets and
shubunkins is very nice.
Paul Unland
Dan;
Humm...if you plan on keeping koi, I think you may wish to looks at some
other filter options...a BBF1 should do a fine job for a pond that size.
Koi seem to really need GREAT not just good water quality.
You will also need a test kit to monitor water quality...
Just go surfin to see some fine examples others have done
search "ponds", "koi"...
good luck...
paul
In article <572cf2$u...@decius.ultra.net>, dran...@nh.ultranet.com (Daniel L.
Kellie Sisson Snider
> I've been reading this group and cruising some web sites, and have> read a few times that koi put a greater strain on filtration than
goldfish,> inch for inch. I will accept this, but it doesn't seem to
> make much sense to> me since they are so closely related as to be able
> to interbreed.
They have a common ancestor. Koi root more, and are very curious. They
keep the pond scum stirred up. Plus they get bigger, and therefore eat
and poop more.
(Or is it> analogous to a thoroughbred vs. a donkey? I understand
thoroughbreds> generally needs better food and more of it than common
donkeys and the> like.)
They are like the horse & donkey in that the offspring are sterile. As
far as horses, the same goes for all domesticated animals, really. The
more highly bred the animal is, the more fragile it really is. The
interbred animals are actually healthier and hardier in most cases, they
just don't suit the bizarre fancies of humans!
> Is this true, then, that a 6" koi creates more waste than a 6"
> goldfish?
I think it's just that they root more, and generally make more of a mess
in that way.
> Or are they just referring to the fact that koi can get up > to 2'>
> long and goldfish don't?
Goldfish can grow to 12", and koi *can* grow to be over three or 3-1/2
feet long and weigh as much as 60 pounds. That makes a big difference
in waste produced! Some koi have been recorded to live for over 200
years. (Family records have traced some that long in Japan, and one
person I know says he has heard of one with a 500 year history, although
I find that hard to believe!)
> If this is true, then what is the reason? I am planning on a
> 5'x6'x2.5' (just over 500 gal.) indoor pond when our house is built,
> and I am now having doubts as to whether I should have koi or >
> goldfish. One source> says it will hold 7-8" inches of koi, and
> another says 56". Frankly, if the> former is correct, then I'd rather
> keep goldfish and be able to have a few> fish rather than only one
> koi.
I would recommend goldfish, BUT you can have koi if you have an
adequate filtration system. Since your pond will be indoors you can get
many fancy varieties. The fantails can be quite lovely when they are
full grown, and they are fairly hardy. They can be easily tamed to eat
from your hand, and they will come when they see you.
> Also, in case anyone needs to know, I am currently planning on a pump which> sucks 600 gph throught a sponge and 2" pvc, puts it through a
filter, and then> back across the top of the water from 2" pvc.
Sounds good. What will the filter contain? You could do this with a
live vegetation filter if you have enough light in the room. Get as big
as 1000 gallon per hour pump. You can always turn it down if you don't
have enough power. Sometimes after pumping through the filtration media
you get less power than the pump is supposed to put out. I have bought
two pumps for my 800 gallon pond, which are too small for my tastes, and
now am asking for a big one for Christmas. I'm going to put the small
one in a new pond I'm building in the spring.
--
Kellie
My Karma Ran Over My Dogma. It was a catastrophe!
Now my Dogma's Dead and my Karma's out of Alignment!
Kellie Sisson Snider
> > P.S. Anybody know of a dealer who sells comets that look like sanke koi?
>
> I've had good luck picking from the feeder tank
> several very good qulity Sarassa/Comet that has
> nice round red spot on their head.
The comet with the round dot on the head is called a Tancho or
hinumaru, single tail. Sanko (or sanshoko) means three colors, or
calico. So a sanko comet would be a shubunkin. If it has five colors
it is called a goshiki. I've seen them at WalMart, PetSmart and other
pet stores.
> However, it's hard to get good black color.
Good black color can be gotten by breeding a dark orange fish with a
moor. You just have to be selective with the spawn.
> Even the pet stores don't get to get Sanke often, not to mention good
> ones.
The ones in the stores I've mentioned will not be the best quality,
although once in a while you can find a pretty good fish that
accidentally got sent to the stores. Sometimes you can find a pretty
fish that is probably not show quality, but for your pond, that isn't
an issue. For good ones go to a breeder or club.