vinegar to lower ph ?
ann
How do I go about using vinegar to lower my ph? It is currently about 8.5 -
9. The fish don't really mind, but I think my lilies will take off better
if it is lower, and besides the bacteria I bought says the water should be
below 8. I'm assuming that I need to dilute the vinegar in a bucket of pond
water before I put it in. What say you all?
MarciaC913
when i use vinegar for my 800 gallon pond i
mix 8 ounces of vinegar to a gallon of pond water
Gary and Cathy Luce
I add some baking soda to my vinegar and pond water mix to add a little
buffering effect and sodium to the water. Lowers the pH and seems to
help soothe stress in the fish.
Gary
Zone 8 Pond God of East Texas
Ken Arnold
Baking soda and vinegar? thats how a "water" Fire Extinguisher works.
a nifty chem reaction and instant fizz/pressure from the gas it
produces.
would also make a big mess if done in qty.,and a possible heart attack
if not expecting it to happen.
Also baking soda will raise PH,not lower it...
mixing baking soda and vin. is like turning the heater and air
conditioner
on at the same time......basicly a useless waste.
Try PH down or a very small qty. of muriatic acid;
1/2 oz. acid per gal. (plastic pail) of water and slowly add that to
pond.
**Whenever lowering/raising PH only go .2 +/- per day till desired PH
is reached.**
--
Ken Arnold,
KenCo Fish & Supplies Pond and Aquarium fish,
Imported & domestic Koi,Goldfish,Orandas etc.
Lilies and all your Pond/Aquarium plant needs
http://www.kencofish.com mailto:ke...@kencofish.com
ann
Yes, I've always read that you have to be careful to go only .2+/- per day.
But, how do I know whether I've overdone it before I test it. How soon
should I test it to see if it is enough. I figure this as 135 oz. does this
sound right? We're talking 270 gals. How strong is muriatic acid?
Ken Arnold
ann wrote:
>
> Yes, I've always read that you have to be careful to go only .2+/- per day.
> But, how do I know whether I've overdone it before I test it. How soon
> should I test it to see if it is enough. I figure this as 135 oz. does this
> sound right? We're talking 270 gals. How strong is muriatic acid?
>
NO !!!!!!
1/2 oz acid mixed w/ 1 gal. of water..then add "that diluted acid mix"
to the pond.
gonna take maybe 4+ ozs. acid total to lower it .2
it depends on pond size as to how much you will need for total acid.
Roark7
Ken Arnold wrote:
> NO !!!!!!
> 1/2 oz acid mixed w/ 1 gal. of water..then add "that diluted acid mix"
>to the pond.
> gonna take maybe 4+ ozs. acid total to lower it .2
> it depends on pond size as to how much you will need for total acid.
Heheheh..... Gee Ken... I haven't see you getthat emphatic since... well...
never! :)
Further to what Ken has said, keep in mind there are no less than three
commercial muriatic acid strengths out there. There is a 8.7% "spa grade" for
hot tubs and small kiddie pools. There is a 22% "residential grade" (max legal
strength in some areas), and a heavy-duty "pool grade" at 30-31%. I'm not sure
which strength Ken was referring to, but it can't hurt to cut the initial dose
by a factor of two to four just to be on the safe side. Measure the resulting
pH change after a few hours and proceed from there. Be prepared for a bit of a
rebound after 24 hours.
On another note, before I ever add any acid, I also do a carbonate hardness
test (KH) to make sure adding acid won't crash the pond. If you are under
70-80 ppm carbonate, don't add any acid... or if you do, go *VERY* slowly and
have a box of baking soda handy. Koi do best in the 100 to 120 ppm carbonate
range. Personally, I don't monitor pH at all anymore. I just add/delete
carbonate to stay in the 100-120 ppm range and, local water being what it is,
my pH stays rock-steady at 8.2ish.
Roark
Ventura, Ca.
Gary and Cathy Luce
Sorry I wasn't more specific. Much more vinegar than baking soda.
Otherwise it will indeed raise the pH. Adding too much acid all at once
does lower the pH but it also destroys the buffering capacity of the
water. And yes, it does fizzzzzzzz.
Gary
Ken Arnold wrote:
>
> Gary and Cathy Luce wrote:
> >
> > I add some baking soda to my vinegar and pond water mix to add a little
> > buffering effect and sodium to the water. Lowers the pH and seems to
> > help soothe stress in the fish.
> >
> > Gary
> > Zone 8 Pond God of East Texas
> >
> > MarciaC913 wrote:
> > >
> > > when i use vinegar for my 800 gallon pond i
> > > mix 8 ounces of vinegar to a gallon of pond water
>
>
> Baking soda and vinegar? thats how a "water" Fire Extinguisher works.
> a nifty chem reaction and instant fizz/pressure from the gas it
> produces.
> would also make a big mess if done in qty.,and a possible heart attack
> if not expecting it to happen.
>
> Also baking soda will raise PH,not lower it...
>
> mixing baking soda and vin. is like turning the heater and air
> conditioner
> on at the same time......basicly a useless waste.
>
> Try PH down or a very small qty. of muriatic acid;
> 1/2 oz. acid per gal. (plastic pail) of water and slowly add that to
> pond.
>
> **Whenever lowering/raising PH only go .2 +/- per day till desired PH
> is reached.**
>
> --
RJ Smith
>
> Ken Arnold wrote:
> >
> > Gary and Cathy Luce wrote:
> > >
> > > I add some baking soda to my vinegar and pond water mix to add a little
> > > buffering effect and sodium to the water. Lowers the pH and seems to
> > > help soothe stress in the fish.
> > >
> > Baking soda and vinegar? thats how a "water" Fire Extinguisher works.
> > a nifty chem reaction and instant fizz/pressure from the gas it
> > produces.
> >
> > Also baking soda will raise PH,not lower it...
> >
> > mixing baking soda and vin. is like turning the heater and air
> > conditioner
> > on at the same time......basicly a useless waste.
OK, I think it all depends upon what the pH is, and where you want it to
go. I'm not sure I'd want to add vinegar to my pond, but it's probably
better than some other choices (muriatic acid, aka hydrochloric acid,
would add additional chloride to the water, and, being a strong acid, you
might easily go to a much lower pH than you wanted). At least vinegar is a
weak, organic acid, and the danger of making the pH too low is low (wow,
that's lots of lows).
Let me suggest another route to lowering pH. DISCLAIMER: I ain't never
done this in a fish pond, so proceed at your own risk and don't e-mail me
yer dead fish!
Carbon dioxide (CO2) reacts with water to form carbonic acid - a weak
acid, and the stuff that makes your Coke fizzy. Also the stuff produced by
the reaction of vinegar and baking soda, hence the lowering of pH reported
in the above post. So it's may not be a useless waste, just a roundabout
way of making CO2 plus some additional sodium acetate to boot.
So here's what you do: get some dry ice from your local dry ice store -
check the yellow pages. Sometimes the local power company stocks it in
case of electrical failures so you can protect you freezer's contents. Dry
ice is frozen CO2. Toss it in the pond and you'll get lots of fizzies plus
a lowering of the pH (and maybe some fishcicles if they get too curious
and too close). I would think putting it near a circulating pump would be
good for better mixing.
Anyway, I know this will lower the pH. The chemical industry uses CO2 for
this purpose when they don't want to handle mineral acids or increase salt
content - they usually use liquid CO2 in pressure tanks, but it's the same
idea. The municipal water treatment systems out West, where manganese
level is a problem, does something similar - they up the pH with lime to
precipitate the manganese, then burn natural gas and air under water
producing CO2 (and water) to lower the pH back down to within drinking
water limits. Guess you could always stick your oxyacetylene torch in the
pond! Might thaw out your fishcicles!
Some tongue-in-cheek above, but I think it's basically a sound idea.
Anybody out there actually tried this?
Bob
brett rowley
In article <cboatbob-060...@black-2.vf.pond.com>,
cboa...@pond.com (RJ Smith) wrote:
If a pond full of plants, it should work great. Probly kill all the fish.
Best thing is to know the buffering capacity of the water prior to trying to
change the pH. The total hardness is a good measure of this. Hard water
will require more and/or stronger acid to lower the pH than soft water.
Before pouring a coupla bottles of acid (or chunking in a few blocks of
dry ice) into a pond full of fish, check out how much acid it takes to
change the pH a given amount in a bucket full of pond water. In medium to
hard water, muriatic acid is fine. As far as adding chlorides to the water,
its basically the same thing as adding salt, the chlorides added from the
acid would be relatively low. Then calculate the amount of acid you need to
get that change in the pond. Then only try 1/2, adding it slowly (mixed
with water) and stopping frequently to check the pH in the pond. Fish don't
like pH changes of more than 1/2 unit per day.
Many ponds will have a source of buffering material in the form of oyster
shells, crushed limestone, or other calcium carbonate source. Some ponds
are naturally rich in buffers such as calcium (relatively hard), and many
are not (relatively soft).
Vinegar mihgt work OK in soft water, but is too weak to use in harder water.
Soft water should be buffered prior to any additions of acid. In most
cases, the buffering itself will bring the pH into a desirable range.
CO2 is poisonous to fish.
Brett
Roark7
RJ Smith wrote:
>So here's what you do: get some dry ice from your local dry ice store -
>check the yellow pages. Sometimes the local power company stocks it in
>case of electrical failures so you can protect you freezer's contents. Dry
>ice is frozen CO2. Toss it in the pond and you'll get lots of fizzies plus
>a lowering of the pH (and maybe some fishcicles if they get too curious
>and too close). I would think putting it near a circulating pump would be
>good for better mixing.
Ummmm.... maybe not such a great idea, RJ. If we didn't need to worry about
having fish, this would be a winner. The problem is, my pond looks better
*with* fish. :) :) :)
Seriously however. Carbonic acid is what we use to humanely *kill* fish. We
stick 'em in a baggie with diluted club soda and then put them in the freezer.
They go down quietly, this way. Sad... but true.
As far as acidification goes, in water which has any carbonate activity (koi
ponds are usually 100-120 ppm), all that CO2 gas isn't going to drop the pH
much at all. The carbonate exchange will tend to pull the pH away from the
acidic end of the scale until the carbonates are consumed. This much gas
*will* tox the fish.
So.... I like the creative chemical thinking... but the actual application
would likely be a major mess.
FWIW, the chloride problem you associate with adding HCl to a pond is
non-existant as far as koi are concerned. Keep in mind that koi *like* a
chloride-rich environment and we actually go out of our way to supply it. Many
folks run 0.05 to 0.1% sodium chloride in their ponds routinely. During the
spring when disease problems tend to show-up, this number goes to 0.3% or even
0.6%. Thats a lot of salt. I haven't done the math for equivalent formula
weights, but it would take many, many gallons of HCl to get the chloride number
anywhere near 0.1%.
Roark
Ventura, Ca.
RJ Smith
In article <6ir94i$p...@sjx-ixn8.ix.netcom.com>, brett rowley
<bre...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
Long, non-data based suggestion on using CO2 to lower [H deleted.
> Best thing is to know the buffering capacity of the water prior to trying to
> change the pH. The total hardness is a good measure of this. Hard water
> will require more and/or stronger acid to lower the pH than soft water.
>
> Before pouring a coupla bottles of acid (or chunking in a few blocks of
> dry ice) into a pond full of fish, check out how much acid it takes to
> change the pH a given amount in a bucket full of pond water.
Of course, a great idea. Always do the experiment on the small scale first.
>
>
> CO2 is poisonous to fish.
Just curious about how much and in what form (is it poisonous)? My
understanding is that the oceans are the world's largest CO2 sink. Fish
must have some level of tolerence.
B
RJ Smith
In article <199805070339...@ladder03.news.aol.com>,
roa...@aol.com (Roark7) wrote:
> Ummmm.... maybe not such a great idea, RJ. If we didn't need to worry about
> having fish, this would be a winner. The problem is, my pond looks better
> *with* fish. :) :) :)
Don't recall saying it was a *great* idea, just an idea. :)
>
> Seriously however. Carbonic acid is what we use to humanely *kill* fish. We
> stick 'em in a baggie with diluted club soda and then put them in the
freezer.
> They go down quietly, this way. Sad... but true.
Is the CO2 or the temperature (or both) that does the job?
>
> As far as acidification goes, in water which has any carbonate activity (koi
> ponds are usually 100-120 ppm), all that CO2 gas isn't going to drop the pH
> much at all.
What's the typical pH of a pond with that carbonate level? Would it even
need adjusting?
>
> So.... I like the creative chemical thinking... but the actual application
> would likely be a major mess.
>
> FWIW, the chloride problem you associate with adding HCl to a pond is
> non-existant as far as koi are concerned. Keep in mind that koi *like* a
> chloride-rich environment and we actually go out of our way to supply it.
Ther're so many chlorine-phobes in the world I forget sometimes it's an
essential nutrient.
Thanks for the chemistry lesson. Never did like inorganic much.
B
Roark7
RJSmith wrote:
>roa...@aol.com (Roark7) wrote:
>> Ummmm.... maybe not such a great idea, RJ. If we didn't need to worry
>about
>> having fish, this would be a winner. The problem is, my pond looks better
>> *with* fish. :) :) :)
>
>Don't recall saying it was a *great* idea, just an idea. :)
Hehehhe... True.
>> Seriously however. Carbonic acid is what we use to humanely *kill* fish.
>We
>> stick 'em in a baggie with diluted club soda and then put them in the
>freezer.
>> They go down quietly, this way. Sad... but true.
>
>Is the CO2 or the temperature (or both) that does the job?
Both. The CO2 pulls them into a nice, stoned state (hypoxia) and as the
temperature drops, they simply turn off.
>> As far as acidification goes, in water which has any carbonate activity
>(koi
>> ponds are usually 100-120 ppm), all that CO2 gas isn't going to drop the pH
>> much at all.
>What's the typical pH of a pond with that carbonate level? Would it even
>need adjusting?
Mine stays in the low 8's and is steady as a rock.With the aeration I've got,
there isn't much CO2 to pull the pH down at all. From what I've seen, most
ponds in the low 7's are generally either carbonate-deficient or could use some
supplemental aeration... but this is an observation, not a rule. At some point
it might make an interesting experiment to try and produce a carbonate-vs-pH
map. Hmmmm... :) :) :)
>> So.... I like the creative chemical thinking... but the actual application
>> would likely be a major mess.
>> FWIW, the chloride problem you associate with adding HCl to a pond is
>> non-existant as far as koi are concerned. Keep in mind that koi *like* a
>> chloride-rich environment and we actually go out of our way to supply it.
>Ther're so many chlorine-phobes in the world I forget sometimes it's an
>essential nutrient.
I think you actually meant chloride. And yep... lots of processes need it.
>Thanks for the chemistry lesson. Never did like inorganic much.
Lesson? LMAO!!!! But thanks for the compliment anyway (blush). There are a
couple of folks running around here who make my garden-variety (pond-variety?)
of chemistry look pretty darned sad. I'm not an organic chemistry fan either.
If it weren't for playing with internal combustion engineering, exotic fuels,
and the like, I'd be *totally* clueless.
Roark
Ventura, Ca.
brett rowley
In article <cboatbob-070...@black-3.vf.pond.com>,
cboa...@pond.com (RJ Smith) wrote:
CO2 begins to be toxic to fish around 15-20 ppm. Toxicity is very
dependent on other water quality parameters. If the DO is low, CO2 is much
more toxic than if DO is near to saturation.
Yes, the oceans adsorb much CO2, but it is rapidly consumed by
phytoplankton. My bet is you would be hard pressed to find more than a
trace of CO2 in ocean water.
Different fish can tolerate differing amounts of CO2.
Once, I saw over 1000 acres of catfish ponds with such high CO2
concentrations in the mornings that the fish (catfish) were moribund. By
noon, they were ready to eat again. The problem arose in conjunction with
an unusual algae bloom. At night, so much CO2 was produced and oxygen
consumed by the phytoplankton that it nearly killed the fish each morning.
By the time the sun had been up awhile, the DO would rise to above
saturation and CO2 would disappear completely.
Fixed the problem by adding a huge amount of hydrated lime (strong base) to
the ponds. This drove the CO2 out of the water and changed the pH enough to
make the environment hostile to the offending algae.
CO2 is dissolved in the water as carbonic acid. Hence the pH change
associated with its presence.
I've seen ponds in E. Texas where the CO2 would acidify the water to a pH of
4 in the mornings, yet by mid afternoon the pH would go to 11. Very soft
water. Adding crushed limestone at the rate of 4 tons per acre fixed the
problem (good buffer).
Brett
Jan Jordan
>On 08 May 1998 02:42:05 GMT, roa...@aol.com (Roark7) wrote:
>>Is the CO2 or the temperature (or both) that does the job?
>
>Both. The CO2 pulls them into a nice, stoned state (hypoxia) and as the
>temperature drops, they simply turn off.
>
Or as one person said, "They go to sleep and when they wake up...
they're dead."
~Keep 'em Wet!~ and alive preferably
jan/3-Cities WA
Zone 7
Remove Z to e-mail
RJ Smith
In article <199805080242...@ladder03.news.aol.com>,
roa...@aol.com (Roark7) wrote:
> >Ther're so many chlorine-phobes in the world I forget sometimes it's an
> >essential nutrient.
>
> I think you actually meant chloride. And yep... lots of processes need it.
Well, I actually did mean chlorine in general, since there is a group of
people who seem to think anything with any kind of Cl in it must be bad.
In my business I actually do worry about chloride ions, because under heat
and pressure chloride is really mean to many grades of stainless steel. Of
couse, there ain't no fish in my reactors!
>
> >Thanks for the chemistry lesson. Never did like inorganic much.
>
> Lesson? LMAO!!!! But thanks for the compliment anyway (blush). There are a
> couple of folks running around here who make my garden-variety (pond-variety?)
> of chemistry look pretty darned sad. I'm not an organic chemistry fan
either.
> If it weren't for playing with internal combustion engineering, exotic fuels,
> and the like, I'd be *totally* clueless.
If I do any sort of chemistry well, it's organic. Takes all kinds, they
say (but we can debate about PChem'ers). ;)
>
Bob
RJ Smith
In article <6ituql$d...@dfw-ixnews9.ix.netcom.com>, brett rowley
<bre...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
> CO2 begins to be toxic to fish around 15-20 ppm. Toxicity is very
> dependent on other water quality parameters. If the DO is low, CO2 is much
> more toxic than if DO is near to saturation.
>
> Yes, the oceans adsorb much CO2, but it is rapidly consumed by
> phytoplankton. My bet is you would be hard pressed to find more than a
> trace of CO2 in ocean water.
>
Wonder what the carbonate/bicarbonate levels are?
>
> Fixed the problem by adding a huge amount of hydrated lime (strong base) to
> the ponds. This drove the CO2 out of the water and changed the pH enough to
> make the environment hostile to the offending algae.
>
> CO2 is dissolved in the water as carbonic acid. Hence the pH change
> associated with its presence.
>
Do I recall correctly that hydrated lime is Ca(OH)2 (as oppposed to CaO
from burning limestone). Either would react with CO2 to produce CaCO3
which is almost completely insoluble and would precipitate (hence the
reduction in dissolved CO2 level). If there were an excess of CO2 (or
H2CO3 - carbonic acid) then the CaCO3 would redissolve as the bicarbonate
CaHCO2(?) - IF I recall me freshman chem correctly - it's been a LONG time
:)).
Bob
ann
RJ Smith wrote in message ...
Man, I didn't mean to start anything with all the chemistry. I just wanted
to know how much vinegar to use in my pond so I could add some liquid
bacteria to help all the tap water I have had to add to my ponds this
spring. I didn't know we had such experts on this group. I have
appreciated all the help I received, I just decided to add a little bit of
the stuff, test it, and then add the bacteria, AFTER I get the pumps and
waterfall to work right (more about that in another post). Isn't it amazing
how some of these threads develop a life of their own. Got to go now, my
right arm is going numb again.
Hopefully, I'll have some pictures soon.
bye
Ann