bird poop a problem?
Keith & Wendy Slonecker
As some of you know, I have
had a problem with bacterial
infection problems this spring
and last fall and have lost 5
large koi in the last 5 weeks.
No fish losses in over a week
now, and they are looking
somewhat better, a little more
active and are eating a little.
Still mostly hanging at the
bottom of the pond when
I'm around, although i see them
through the window up and cruising
the pond when Im not there.
Water temp is only up to 57 at most,
and hovers around 54 degrees most
of the time. We live in Oregon.
I just saw a hunk of stuff that I
was watching float over to the
skimmer and when it got close,
suddenly it dropped to the bottom
of the pond. It was bird poop.
My question is whether it is possible
that some nasty bacteria or whatever
else can be a problem in a pond
when there are so many birds hanging
around and pooping in the waterfall or
pond itself?
Any opinions?
Also, is it possible that the colder
than usual temps are the reason for
the lethargy and hanging around the
bottom when Im around? I think the
fish are feeling better, and the water
quality parameters are all perfect. No
new ulcers or spots just very shy fish
instead of the ravenous eaters we have
had the past 2 years of ponding.
thanks for any help.
wendy in Oregon
jan
Bird poop carries a lot of germs. With the cooler temps your fishes'
immune systems are not fully on-line. This is a good time to have, at the
the very least, .1% salt in the water and start feeding Romet B. IMO
You can't stop the birds from pooping in the pond, but you can improve your
fishes chance of not getting sick by good water quality, a little salt and
high quality feed. ~ jan
Keith & Wendy Slonecker
started dying of what was clearly some kind of bacterial problem, I upped
the salt to from .18 where it is usually, to .25 and added Melafix for 5
days. I also took some advice I had heard on this website and cut up
(slivers) some Cipro tablets, inserting a sliver in a cooked shrimp which
they love. That way I could tell which fish were getting medicated. Seemed
to work well.
It sure does hurt to lose big fish. They are truly my buddies and it pains
me terribly to see them die. We spent a lot of time and money researching
our pond and filter systems so we could insure that we would have healthy,
happy fish. Unfortunately, I am learning that in spite of our best efforts,
sometimes the elements conspire and there are fish losses.
Thanks for your good advice. I always enjoy your posts.
wendy in Oregon
jan
Well you were on it, so that's half battle, good idea on the shrimp
medicated cocktail. ;o)
One comment, regarding salt that you might have seen in another post, I've
always dropped mine as low as possible with water changes once the temps
are up. At the KHA wet-lab the vet, who has taken on teaching all us
layfolks, Sandy Yosha, concurred that in a healthy pond there was no need
to have a low salt dose in the pond. That, in fact, in the long run it is
detrimental and makes one have to go even higher to get rid of the crud.
~ jan
K30a
Well, is wasn't bird poop in the pond, it was the whole bird!
Today one of the larger butterfly koi was dragging around a dead bird. It
probably fell in the pond and drowned while bathing. The concern was that the
dead bird had gotten lodged in the koi's throat. But as soon as koi kibble was
tossed on the pond, the koi dropped the bird and snarfed up kibble.
The bird's body sank to the bottom of the pond where, I hope, the two turtles,
will take care of it.
Healthwise, I'm hoping that is the end of the story.
I think I'll drape a couple more birdy branches around the pond.
k30a
how to cure green water
http://hometown.aol.com/k30a/myhomepage/writing.html
herons eating your fish? fancy a turtle? need to bag a bullfrog?
http://hometown.aol.com/k30a/myhomepage/garden.html
dr-...@wi.rr.com.takethisoff
low levels of salt in their ponds for hundreds if not thousands of years.
forget what it may or may not do to the cooties, I really dont believe low
levels of salt kills any of the cooties anyway nor that cooties become
"resistant".
concentrate on what low levels of salt does to keep the fish healthy by
stimulating a good slime coat, provide essential chloride ions, plus easing
osmotic pressure. the slime coat fish produce is loaded with antibodies
AND anti-microbial proteins. salt in the water aids in healing dings and
scrapes.
A healthy pond is a short lived phenomena. One bird doing a good dump in a
smaller pond, one sick fish, one dead frog or fish, a big temperature drop,
the electricity goes off, the leaves rotting on the bottom, anything that
stresses the fish like predators and that "healthy" pond is gone.
And on the other side are those recommending 0.3% salt in ponds which
stresses the biofilter (or kills the veggie filter) and causes the fish to
blow off ammonia, chews up the fins and rips up the gills if left in too
long.
from a post by Brett, who breeds koi
"Salt, refering to sodium chloride, has been used to relieve stress in
freshwater fish for a very long time. I've been in the fish biz for 25
years and it was obviously a very old practice when I started.
Salt helps to relieve osmoregulatory stress in freshwater fish among other
things. It is toxic to many parasites, bacteria, and viruses. In
addition, the "salt" calcium chloride is regularly used in fish hatcheries
as a water conditioner to raise the hardness of very soft waters. Other
"salts" commonly used in fisheries work includes potassium chloride,
calcium sulfate, copper sulfate, aluminum sulfate, ammonium nitrate, and a
host of others. Salt is a very old, very well documented, very commonly
used substance in the management of fish farms, hatcheries,
aquaria, and other fishy places."
and from Rod who has searched the topic (and is a chemist)
Well, here's some articles on salt in freshwater aquaculture:
http://edis.ifas.ufl.edu/scripts/htmlgen.exe?DOCUMENT_VM007
http://www.koivet.com/salt.htm
http://home.pacbell.net/normeck/H2oQual.html#SALINITY
http://puregold.aquaria.net/disease/treatment/trtmnt.htm#salt
http://ag.ansc.purdue.edu/aquanic/publicat/usda_rac/efs/ncrac/ncrac105.pdf
INgrid
jan
>I really have to disagree. Most koi and goldfish breeders have been using
>low levels of salt in their ponds for hundreds if not thousands of years.
This was mentioned, and why they feel many of the cooties are taking higher
& higher doses to get rid of. Not sure if you're familiar with the vet
Sandy Yosha, but this lady has studied and treated fish all her life. I was
really impressed with her knowledge and her wonderful down to earth
personality. Great fun.
>concentrate on what low levels of salt does to keep the fish healthy by
>stimulating a good slime coat, provide essential chloride ions, plus easing
>osmotic pressure. the slime coat fish produce is loaded with antibodies
>AND anti-microbial proteins. salt in the water aids in healing dings and
>scrapes.
Yes, all true, but not necessary once the immune system and warmer water
temperatures are in full swing. As far as osmotic pressure, etc. this can
be achieve with but a handful of salt, which many natural sources already
contain.
>from a post by Brett, who breeds koi
Well Brett was one of the advisors to the KHA program and didn't discredit
what Sandy had to say. I do think we can safely say what's good for the
commerical part of koi keeping isn't always good for the backyard
ponder/gardener. This is true with many hobbies beside koi. ~ jan
dr-...@wi.rr.com.takethisoff
However, I havent seen any primary research articles that have shown parasites that
WERE NOT salt resistant are NOW salt resistant. for example, gyrodactylus is only
killed by seawater concentrations of salt.
http://www.bellona.no/imaker?sub=1&id=12780
So saying that gyros used to be salt resistant is not proof.
the assumption that because salt USED to cure infestations of various parasites and
doesnt now does not in and of itself prove 1. a cause and effect or 2. that the cause
of disease resistance is the use of salt. remember that salt has been used for
hundreds of years. if these parasites were ever salt sensitive they would have been
selected for resistance by the use of salt over a long period of time, not just
because we put a little salt in our ponds.
The assumption is that because some fish being treated by some people are not
responding to the use of salt as the treatment it is because the parasites are salt
resistant. This is not an experiment, this is not proof.
http://puregold.aquaria.net/lectures/Lec01-02w/pseudoscience.htm
read Brett (our Brett?) discussion with others on salt here
http://www.cyberfins.com/rawdata/medicine/001219.drug%20resistance%20retained.shtml
http://www.cyberfins.com/rawdata/purplecult/pp3/010105.p.p%20doesn't%20kill.shtml
He could be correct about fish grown in saltier water have already aquired the
resistant types of parasites .. before they ever get into our ponds.
Lets take the case of antibiotic resistance. The assumption is that one must take
antibiotics long enough to kill all the bacteria or bacteria become resistant. At
concentrations of antibiotics that dont kill the host, it will not kill all the
bacteria. The host MUST have a functional immune system to take care of the residual
live and/or weakened bacteria. Those with no immune system (like the bubble boy
born without key parts of the immune system AND those with aquired immune
deficiencies) die from infection even when given antibiotics.
It is true that once the temperature reaches 55oF for 10 days the immune system is
going to be up and running... and so is spawning. At every stage of the year there
are going to be stresses that lower the immune system and put the fish at risk.
http://agpublications.tamu.edu/pubs/efish/474fs.pdf Ruth Francis-Floyd
But hey, everyone gets to put their money down and take their choice. Ingrid
Tom La Bron
Ruth Francis-Floyd is a good recommendation, but she is doing studies for
AQUACULTURE and when I contacted her department, I was told that Ruth's
research and remedies were officially for aquaculture facilities and that
there is no correlation to pond cultures, where the stocking density is in
the arena of one fish per 100 gallons is implied or suggested. Most
aquaculture facilities are dealing with one half kilo of fish per gallon of
water.
So to say that Ruth Francis-Floyd is saying that your salt concentration of
prophalayctic concentrates are for ponds is what should be followed is
neither accurate nor true. I mentioned this once before, and it is still
valid. She has done no, I repeat, no research that is valid for backyard
pond culture, so to use her research and recommendations for aquaculture for
backyard ponders is not accurate or appropriate.
Tom L.L.
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