Zone system and Ilford DELTA 400
Gordon MacDonald
I'm trying to use the zone system with 35mm DELTA 400 film.
I read AA's book "The Negative," where AA talks about n-1
development for 35mm portrait photography. Now, either I'm
missing something in the book, or I'm just plain stupid.
How do I figure out how long I should develop DELTA400
in D76(1-1) for n-1 development?
Any help on this would be appreciated!
Thanks,
Gordon Macdonald
University of Victoria
Pete Bergstrom
>Perhaps this is a basic question.....
>I'm trying to use the zone system with 35mm DELTA 400 film.
>I read AA's book "The Negative," where AA talks about n-1
>development for 35mm portrait photography. Now, either I'm
>missing something in the book, or I'm just plain stupid.
>How do I figure out how long I should develop DELTA400
>in D76(1-1) for n-1 development?
I'd suggest you go back and reread "The Negative" in the sections
where he talks about developing exposure and development metrics for
various films. It's not a trivial process to go through - for example,
you'll need a transmission densitometer.
Pete
Gordon MacDonald
Yes thanks, but i had hoped someone had already figured out the numbers
for some standard films......
Gordon
Michel Moreaux
| I'd suggest you go back and reread "The Negative" in the sections
| where he talks about developing exposure and development metrics for
| various films. It's not a trivial process to go through - for example,
| you'll need a transmission densitometer.
Therefore, it is faaaarrrr better to use the Tone System that has been
described in View Camera magazine. I use Tone System with 4"x5" and it is
perfect. I also made the calibration with 120 roll-films and the calibration
is very accurate too. I strongly recommend the Tone System because it does
NOT require a densitometer in order to calibrate the system. Moreover,
determining the exposition is easier and more accurate than with Zone System.
_michel
--
----------------------
Michel Moreaux, Ecole Polytechnique Federale de Lausanne
phone: ++ (21) 693.46.72 Laboratoire d'Informatique Technique
e-mail: mor...@litsun.epfl.ch EL-Ecublens, CH-1015 Lausanne
Inge Johnsson
>
> Therefore, it is faaaarrrr better to use the Tone System that has been
> described in View Camera magazine. I use Tone System with 4"x5" and it is
> perfect. I also made the calibration with 120 roll-films and the calibration
> is very accurate too. I strongly recommend the Tone System because it does
> NOT require a densitometer in order to calibrate the system. Moreover,
> determining the exposition is easier and more accurate than with Zone System.
>
> _michel
> --
I haven't heard of this "Tone System". Can you give a brief overview of the
basic ideas for this method?
Regards,
Inge
Inge Johnsson
>
> Yes thanks, but i had hoped someone had already figured out the numbers
> for some standard films......
>
> Gordon
>
>
Gordon,
For many B&W films a 30% increase as compared to normal development results
in N+1 development, and a 30% decrease in N-1 development.
You can get away without a densitometer too. Using a "Kodak Projection Print Scale"
as reference is accurate enough for most of us. Use a light table or bright window
for the comparison procedures that are described below.
To determine your exposure index make a series of grey card, or similar, exposures in
half stops ranging from 6 stops underexposure to 2 stops underexposure, leaving every
third frame blank. Develop according to manufacturer recommendations and use the "48
second" wedge of your "Kodak Projection Print Scale" as the Zone I reference, when put
on top of the blank frames (=filmbase+fog+0.1). Determine what exposure best matches
the scale/blank frame combination and adjust your film speed accordingly. I.e. if
the reference matches the 3 stops underexposed frame, instead of the 4 stops
underexposure which is where you want your Zone I, you should use half the
manufacturers recommended film speed.
To determine you normal development make a couple of grey card, or similar, exposures
two stops above what the meter recommends, i.e. two stops overexposure. Repeat this
procedure on 5 rolls (or half rolls if you are capable of cutting it in half in
complete darkness). Also, expose a blank frame before and after the two stops
overexposed frames. Develop the five rolls according to: 1) Manufacturer's
recommendation, 2) 15% longer time, 3) 30% longer time, 4) 15% shorter time and
5) 30% shorter time. Use the "8 second" wedge of your "Kodak Projection Print Scale"
as the Zone VII reference if you're using a condenser enlarger, the "4 second" one
if you have a diffuser enlarger, and determine what roll best matches the wedge (on
top of the blank frame). I think the "8 second" wedge corresponds to a density of
0.85 above fog, and the "4 second" to a density of 1.3 above fog. So now you should
have your normal development time, the one you used for the roll that best matched
the reference. If no roll came real close to the reference you'd have to iterate the
procedure a couple of more times, using other development times.
Then to determine your N+1 and N-1 development times you could expose a series of grey
card, or similar, exposures in half stops ranging from 0 stops overexposure to 3, or
maybe 4, stops overexposure on a number of rolls. Develop the rolls using different
deviations from you normal development (for instance +20%, +30%, -20%, -30% etc.),
and compare these rolls to the roll that had normal development. On what roll does
the three stop overexposure correspond in tone to the two stop overexposure on the
normal developed film? That should be your N-1 development! On what roll does
the two stop overexposure correspond in tone to the three stop overexposure on the
normal developed film? That should be your N+1 development!
These procedures are not extremely accurate but, I think, accurate enough for most
needs. I think I it in one of those Kodak photography books.
Regards,
Inge
Guillermo Penate
PB+>I read AA's book "The Negative," where AA talks about n-1
PB+>development for 35mm portrait photography. Now, either I'm
PB+>missing something in the book, or I'm just plain stupid.
PB+>How do I figure out how long I should develop DELTA400
PB+>in D76(1-1) for n-1 development?
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
PB+I'd suggest you go back and reread "The Negative" in the sections
PB+where he talks about developing exposure and development metrics for
PB+various films. It's not a trivial process to go through - for example,
PB+you'll need a transmission densitometer.
Pete is right "it isn't a trivial process". Now, if you do not want to
go thru it, I would say that 0.7 of your normal development time is a
good starting point.
Guillermo Penate
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* 1st 1.11 #2045 *
Michel Moreaux
| various films. It's not a trivial process to go through - for example,
Good reason to use Tone System instead of Zone System! I adapted Tone System
for medium format and it works great. Moreover, Tone System does NOT require
a densitometer.
_michel
--
----------------------
Michel Moreaux, Ecole Polytechnique Federale de Lausanne
phone: ++ (21) 693.46.72 Laboratoire d'Informatique Technique
e-mail: mor...@litsun.epfl.ch IN-Ecublens, CH-1015 Lausanne
Jerry Tam
>>How do I figure out how long I should develop DELTA400
>>in D76(1-1) for n-1 development?
> berg...@src.honeywell.com (Pete Bergstrom) replied:
> I'd suggest you go back and reread "The Negative" in the sections...
> ...
i don't think Pete was trying to be rude when he suggested that you should
do the tests.
The reason is that what "N" or "N-1" development is based on
your judgement. Zone system only make sense if you calibrate your entire
process -- type of enlarger you are using, how you rate your film,
type of paper, even the water you use with your D76 will make a different.
So if another person tell you to use X minutes at Y temp., it is probably
meaningless.
Jerry
Roger Paulson
And also not really conducive to roll-film, where you must develop the
entire roll of X number of shots with the same development. (i.e. you must
force all of the shots with the single development in mind, where with
sheet film, each exposure and development can be tailored)
---
* WinQwk 2.0b#1326 * If it's stupid and works, then it ain't stupid
Michel Moreaux
| And also not really conducive to roll-film, where you must develop the
| entire roll of X number of shots with the same development. (i.e. you must
| force all of the shots with the single development in mind, where with
| sheet film, each exposure and development can be tailored)
Good reason to try Tone System ...
Robert Claeson
: The reason is that what "N" or "N-1" development is based on
: your judgement. Zone system only make sense if you calibrate your entire
: process -- type of enlarger you are using, how you rate your film,
: type of paper, even the water you use with your D76 will make a different.
: So if another person tell you to use X minutes at Y temp., it is probably
: meaningless.
Yup. Like when Kodak tells me to develop TMX for 12 minutes in D-76 1+1
at 20C to get a contrast index of 0.56. I get something closer to 1.0.
I have to develop for several minutes less to get 0.56.
--
Robert Claeson Temporary email: r...@iva.se
Zone V
Photographer, writer and computer consultant (or, buy three, pay for one).