Slide Film Developing Kit Question
Christopher K. Oei
what I need, where to get it, or how much it might cost.
Also, would anyone comment on the quality of do-it-yourself vs. photolabs
for slide film developing?
Thanks in advance,
Chris
Mark Goldberg
>.... would anyone comment on the quality of do-it-yourself vs. photolabs
>for slide film [E-6] developing?
I did E-6 a few years ago, but stopped due to my gradual shift to negative
only-shooting.
E-6 is one of those processes you can do without a home darkroom. You
need a kitchen for the actual chemical work, plus a closet or windowless
room where you can have total darkness for loading the film from cassette
into the developing tank.
I was fairly pleased with the results of E-6 as well as the C-41 developing
I did. In some ways, E-6 was easier than doing my own black & white
because I got a positive image without the hassle of printmaking.
I don't remember much about the cost. When I did it, I preferred the
Unicolor chemistry because it came as vials of liquid as opposed to
powder. That's easier to mix. Results were fairly repeaable. too.
An advantage of home processing was fast turnaround, the ability to
push process if needed, and the choice of not mounting images that didn't
turn out well. I settled on snap-together plastic slide mounts because
I hated the hassle of the heat-sealed ones (ironing, etc.).
Temperature control is obviously more critical than B&W developing.
I have heard that it's easier today. I learned a few tricks - like
allowing the tank and undeveloped film to come to come to thermal equilibrium
first. To maintain the temperature, I placed my developing tank (Peterson)
in a water bath. Most of the work was done in my kitchen sink.
E-6 chemistry, like most color solutions, has a limited shelf life.
So I mixed up the chemistry when I had a bunch of rolls to do.
Where I live, non of the one-hour labs do E-6. So if I got back into
slides via the Ektachrome route, chances are I'd do E-6 again.
=========David Taylor Research Center (a US Navy lab) - Annapolis, MD=========
/|/| /||)|/ /~_/\| |\|)[~|)/~_ | Everyone's entitled to MY opinion.
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========Imagination is more important than knowledge. - Albert Einstein=======
Klaus B. Biggers
>In rec.photo, ckog...@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (Christopher K. Oei) writes:
>>.... would anyone comment on the quality of do-it-yourself vs. photolabs
>>for slide film [E-6] developing?
>
>need a kitchen for the actual chemical work, plus a closet or windowless
>room where you can have total darkness for loading the film from cassette
>into the developing tank.
Be careful in the kitchen. The enclosed information in the E-6 kits I've
used specifically state *NOT* to use these chemicals where food is prepared
and to wear eye protection and rubber gloves. I'm not sure why they are
concerned about ingestion of the chemicals but the warning is very explicit.
Anyone know what chemical they are worried about and what the effects and
dangers are?
>I was fairly pleased with the results of E-6 as well as the C-41 developing
>I did. In some ways, E-6 was easier than doing my own black & white
>because I got a positive image without the hassle of printmaking.
Agreed. Its very easy and reliable.
>I don't remember much about the cost. When I did it, I preferred the
>Unicolor chemistry because it came as vials of liquid as opposed to
>powder. That's easier to mix. Results were fairly repeaable. too.
You can get a kit which will process 6 - 36 exposure rolls for about
$15 at most photo stores. All the kits I've seen recently have the
chemicals in foil packets making the mixing very convenient. Some kits also
come in double the volume or a 12 - 36 exposure capacity at less than twice
the price but they are simply two of each of the packets, so you can either
mix double the volume, or mix two separate batches if you don't have or
won't have 12 rolls by the time the chemicals expire. You'll also need
the double capacity if you want to use multiple roll tanks. This greatly
simplifies the process since you don't have to go through all the rig-a-ma-roll
as often.
>Temperature control is obviously more critical than B&W developing.
>I have heard that it's easier today. I learned a few tricks - like
>allowing the tank and undeveloped film to come to come to thermal equilibrium
>first. To maintain the temperature, I placed my developing tank (Peterson)
>in a water bath. Most of the work was done in my kitchen sink.
I would recommend going through the motions once without film just so you
see what type of temperature control you can get while doing all the
pouring and mixing. Some kits also allow low temperature processing so you
can operate at room temperature and avoid the whole temperature
maintenance hassle.
Again, I would exercise caution using the kitchen sink if you prepare
food in your kitchen. I use the bathroom instead. Read the precautions on the
label before you start.
-klaus kl...@ced.utah.edu
_______________________________________________________________________________
Alan K Biocca
freshness. Proper controls result in excellent quality.
>>E-6 is one of those processes you can do without a home darkroom. You
>>need a kitchen for the actual chemical work, plus a closet or windowless
>>room where you can have total darkness for loading the film from cassette
>>into the developing tank.
Actually, all you need is a largish dark-bag to load the tank in.
>Be careful in the kitchen. The enclosed information in the E-6 kits I've
>used specifically state *NOT* to use these chemicals where food is prepared
>and to wear eye protection and rubber gloves. I'm not sure why they are
>concerned about ingestion of the chemicals but the warning is very explicit.
>Anyone know what chemical they are worried about and what the effects and
>dangers are?
I'm sure the chemicals used include some that are quite dangerous. Better
to use a bathroom. Set an ice chest on the counter and fill with water adjusted
for the 100 plus or minus 1/4 degree f temperature bath. Spilled drops of
chemistry are immediately diluted and temperatures are easily maintained.
Start out with the whole setup 10 degrees too hot and watch the temperature
drift. Watch it and figure out how much it will drift during the first
developer. Figure your starting temperature half that much higher than the
specified (100 or 100.4 F) temp. When the bath reaches that temp -- GO!
>You can get a kit which will process 6 - 36 exposure rolls for about
>$15 at most photo stores.
It is cheaper to have 35mm ektachrome developed and mounted than you can
do it yourself, especially when you include the mounts. Actually, mounting
turns out the be the major hassle -- developing six reels of 136-36 isn't
very difficult, and then you have 200+ mounts to do!
One thing to watch when selecting chemistry -- watch the chemistry requirements
of your tank. Many of the plastic tanks won't do two reels in 500 ml. The
metal tanks will, and in a water bath they maintain temperature well. I prefer
to use the plastic tanks myself and have gone to a water bath with tank rotator.
That way the tank only has to be half full. This allows, in many cases, the
chemistry to be used once and tossed, which helps the consistency as well.
>>Temperature control is obviously more critical than B&W developing.
Temperature is everything. A few degrees low produces very muddy slides.
Alan K Biocca
Klaus B. Biggers
>It is cheaper to have 35mm ektachrome developed and mounted than you can
>do it yourself, especially when you include the mounts. Actually, mounting
>turns out the be the major hassle -- developing six reels of 136-36 isn't
>very difficult, and then you have 200+ mounts to do!
True... if you are going to mount them all. I mount maybe 10% of my slides.
That on top of the advantages of fast turn around time and push processing
can make it a more reasonable comparison. Also, you can buy the chemicals
mail order at a much lower cost. I think in the long run you may come out
cheaper doing it yourself.. but you'll never recover the cost of your
time.. :)
-klaus kl...@ced.utah.edu
_______________________________________________________________________________
Victor Tavernini
If you live by a good professional laboratory that does it's own in-house
E-6, I'd say let them do it.
The trick to good quality E-6 is to use fresh chemicals and to keep
all of them at the required constant temperature (normally 100 degrees).
Unless you do alot of work, the requirement of using fresh chemicals
negates any financial advantage. Also you must buy something like
a Jobo to keep the temps steady (unless you love to fiddle with pots
of boiling water or are ingenious with fish tank equipment) and this
will run you around $300.
If you don't live near a good lab, and don't want to wait weeks for your
slides to return, then by all means go for it.
Doing E-6 is boring, instead buy yourself an enlarger and play with
Cibachrome. There is a greater opportunity for savings, and you have
artistic control over the resultant prints.
Victor Tavernini
Racal-Datacom, Inc.
Andy Wai
>
>The trick to good quality E-6 is to use fresh chemicals and to keep
>all of them at the required constant temperature (normally 100 degrees).
Speaking of chemistry freshness, how keepable are those liquid concentrate
E-6 kits? Is it possible to make up small volumes of working solution as
you need them? Or does the whole thing have to be diluted all at once?
Also, is there difference between the three step processes and the full
6 step E-6, in terms of the final results? Thanks.
Andy Wai
Mario Wolczko
over 100 rolls over a 3 year period. Bear in mind this was in the UK,
so prices and products may not be the same; also, I'm sure things have
improved in the intervening 8 years or so.
The big advantage of DIY was cost: by buying bulk film and processing
and mounting it myself I worked out the cost was about 1/3 of
commercial rates. Doing about 30 rolls paid for the basic equipment
(changing bag [didn't have a darkroom], bulk loader and cassettes,
tank+reel, thermometer, water heater, squeegee, etc). Once I was sure
it was worth doing, and reliable, I got a bigger tank (5 rolls at a
time), and slide cutter (much recommended).
Another advantage is that if you're careful you can get consistently
good quality -- few labs will care about your films as much as you do.
I always got cleaner slides with fewer scratches than commercial labs.
The downside is that it's not very exciting, and can be quite hard
work. As other posters have said, temperature control is very
important. Both kits I used needed control to within 1deg C. This is
not too bad for small quantities of liquid, but can be trickier with
larger amounts (remember you have to be heating one up while agitating
the previous -- you never have enough hands). I guess it's a lot
easier if you get one of those gadgets that agitates and maintains
time + temperature -- but the more equipment you get the less you'll
save.
That said, I never had a single film come out badly due to time or
temperature mistakes. I did have a couple go slightly off-colour due
to stale chemicals -- they don't keep very well. You probably have to
be shooting something like an average of 8 rolls every couple of
months (~1/week) to make it economical.
One last thing: the first kit I used was a 7-bath kit. This was a
nightmare to organise compared to the second, 4-bath kit. Unless you
have a friend helping, I'd steer clear of the more complex kits.
Mario Wolczko
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Jack Campin
> One last thing: the first kit I used was a 7-bath kit. This was a
> nightmare to organise compared to the second, 4-bath kit. Unless you
> have a friend helping, I'd steer clear of the more complex kits.
I recently read an assertion in a magazine (Ron Spillman, who usually
knows what he's talking about, In AP, I think) that the three-bath kits
can't produce the same Dmax as the six-bath process because of the
combination of bleach and fix into one solution.
Is this true? If it is, I'm not getting everything I could out of Velvia;
but I haven't seen it (don't have a densitometer). The only difference
I've noticed between my work and the lab's is that I don't get drying marks.
Does anyone know of a good guide to E6 processes? (exactly what goes on
chemically, how to hack them for different results,... ?) Do the different
processes have different archival characteristics?
--
-- Jack Campin Computing Science Department, Glasgow University, 17 Lilybank
Gardens, Glasgow G12 8QQ, Scotland 041 339 8855 x6854 work 041 556 1878 home
JANET: ja...@dcs.glasgow.ac.uk BANG!net: via mcsun and ukc FAX: 041 330 4913
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Michelle Stone
>Thanks in advance,
>Chris
Another benefit of doing your own E6 developing is that you can purchase
your film in bulk. That saves a bunch of money. To get the drums, chemicals,
a light tight changing bag, and a bulk film loader I figured would run
me about $200. I used to do it and really had a lot of fun with it.
Michelle
Alan K Biocca
>Another benefit of doing your own E6 developing is that you can purchase
>your film in bulk. That saves a bunch of money. To get the drums, chemicals,
>a light tight changing bag, and a bulk film loader I figured would run
>me about $200. I used to do it and really had a lot of fun with it.
I have had no trouble sending bulk-loaded ektachrome to be commercially
processed. This achieves most of the savings, but it is difficult to get your
canisters returned. Usually they return nothing unless you ask, and then
they return someone else's canister's that are often incomplete.
I always mark the canister with the specific film type (like Ektachrome
Professional 5036) and also mark the developing envelop with special
instructions:
Process E6, Film is Ektachrome Professional 5036.
I've had perhaps 80 rolls done this way without complaint or problems through
fox, qualex, kodalux labs.
Alan K Biocca
Jeff Hintzman
In article <micki.694819964@valid>, mi...@napalm.valid.com (Michelle
Stone) writes:
|> In <1992Jan3.1...@ux1.cso.uiuc.edu> ckog...@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu
(Christopher K. Oei) writes:
|>
|> >I'm thinking of doing my own E-6 developing. Unfortunately, I don't know
|> >what I need, where to get it, or how much it might cost.
|>
> your film in bulk. That saves a bunch of money. To get the drums,
chemicals,
> a light tight changing bag, and a bulk film loader I figured would run
> me about $200. I used to do it and really had a lot of fun with it.
>
Can someone comment on the importance of temperature in processing
E-6 or C-41 films? I've pretty comfortable with developing my own
B&W film, but for color I've always been scared off by the requirement
that everything needed to be at the right temperture +/- 1/4 degree or
something. Is it as easy as putting everything in a water bath or
is there more to it?
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Jeff Hintzman hint...@hplabs.hpl.hp.com
Hewlett-Packard CTR&D, Palo Alto, CA telnet: 857-7616
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Russell Williams
>Can someone comment on the importance of temperature in processing
>E-6 or C-41 films?
It's very important but not too hard. I used to do the 13-step, 55 minute
E4 process in a sink or shower stall. Just put everything in a water bath
(e.g. a plastic washtub). Rather than trying to drift by the correct
temperature, I just maintained the correct temperature to +/- 1/2 degree
by continuously dribbling water from the faucet into the water bath.
The bath has to be at a slightly higher temperature than the target to
keep the chemicals at correct temperature, but the thermal inertia of
bottles and chemicals gives time to adjust the incoming water temp
whenever the bath starts to drift. I never had trashed any film.
Andy Wai
>In article <1992Jan07.2...@hplabs.hpl.hp.com> hint...@hpljah.hpl.hp.com writes:
>>Can someone comment on the importance of temperature in processing
>>E-6 or C-41 films?
>
>It's very important but not too hard. I used to do the 13-step, 55 minute
>E4 process in a sink or shower stall. Just put everything in a water bath
>(e.g. a plastic washtub). Rather than trying to drift by the correct
>temperature, I just maintained the correct temperature to +/- 1/2 degree
According to the data I have, E4 runs at 29.5C with the most stringent
step, the first developer, within +-.25C. Standard E6 runs at 38C and
with the first developer within +-.3C. Assume a room temperature of 20
degree, you're going to lose heat almost twice as fast with E6 as with
E4. It would probably require massive mental effort to hold the water-
bath at 38C manually over the twenty somewhat minutes while keeping track
of all the chemical baths and at the same time maintaining a consistent
agitation schedule.
Anyway, quite a few people have reported satisfactory results from home
E6 processing, but has anybody actually run control strips through their
process? I'm just wondering how easy or difficult would it be to process
consistently to within standard tolerance?
Andy Wai
P.S. Hey, haven't heard from donl mathis since the new year, is he
still around?
Ron Speirs
>|> I'm thinking of doing my own E-6 developing. Unfortunately, I don't know
>|> what I need, where to get it, or how much it might cost.
>|> Also, would anyone comment on the quality of do-it-yourself vs. photolabs
>|> for slide film developing?
>|> Thanks in advance,
>|> Chris
>
>If you live by a good professional laboratory that does it's own in-house
>E-6, I'd say let them do it.
>The trick to good quality E-6 is to use fresh chemicals and to keep
>all of them at the required constant temperature (normally 100 degrees).
>
>Unless you do alot of work, the requirement of using fresh chemicals
>negates any financial advantage. Also you must buy something like
>a Jobo to keep the temps steady (unless you love to fiddle with pots
>of boiling water or are ingenious with fish tank equipment) and this
>will run you around $300.
The key to economy in E-6 processing is: don't mix up batches larger
than you can expect to use in about a month. I use a pint (2-roll) or a
quart (4-roll) batch. DON'T mix up the whole gallon if that's the size
kit you have. Temperature control isn't that hard or expensive either.
My waterbath is a Tupperware Bread Keeper (like a dishpan, but with
vertical sides). I use an evaporative cooler water pump, running on
reduced voltage from a variac to keep the water moving gently. These
are available at hardware stores in the spring for about $8. My
temperature control is two coffee-cup immersion heaters, switchable to
full power or half power thru a diode. Of course this is plugged into
a GFCI (Ground Fault Circuit Interrupter) outlet to avoid shock hazard.
>
>If you don't live near a good lab, and don't want to wait weeks for your
>slides to return, then by all means go for it.
>
>Doing E-6 is boring, instead buy yourself an enlarger and play with
>Cibachrome. There is a greater opportunity for savings, and you have
>artistic control over the resultant prints.
>
Yes, doing E-6 is boring, but I can tolerate the boredom better than the
wait, the running around and the worry that the lab will do a good job
on my slides. Actually, it's a great convenience to be able to process
my slides anytime - nights, weekends - at a very low cost. And yes,
cost is a big consideration. After some experimentation a few years ago,
I settled on a hybrid process: some steps I buy, some I home-brew.
I buy the First and Color Developers in the 5-gallon replenisher sizes,
Kodak Rapid Fixer in the 5-gallon size (don't use the hardener). Everything
else in home-brew. I estimate my cost/roll at less than 50 cents. Add to
that the 75 cents for mounts and compare to the $6 cost at a lab!
Some of the posters have inquired about what goes on in the E-6 process.
The following information is a composite of various articles which I have
read:
THE E-6 PROCESS FOR COLOR TRANSPARENCIES
Almost all of the color transparency (slide) film available today is processed
in the E-6 process, with the exception of Kodak Kodachrome film. Kodachrome
uses a very complicated process which cannot be done in the amateur darkroom.
Films compatible with the E-6 process are Ektachrome, Fujichrome, Agfachrome,
Scotchchrome and almost any other color film ending in "-chrome". Many
companies produce processing kits for E-6, and they may differ in the name
and number of the steps, but they all do essentially the same thing.
Modern color films all have multiple layers, and each layer responds to a
different color of light and dyes of different colors are formed in each layer.
The thing that makes the E-6 films (and the C-41 color negative films) so easy
to process is that only one developing agent is needed for all the layers.
There are "partial dye molecules" in each layer, and the color developing agent
combines with these in each layer to form the yellow, magenta and cyan dyes
which form the image. As a contrast, in the Kodachrome process, the film goes
through a separate developer for each layer, and the complete dyes are
deposited ON the film during each developer.
Here is a summary of what happens in each step of the process:
FIRST DEVELOPER
This is essentially a black-and-white developer. The exposed silver
halide (silver chloride & silver bromide) particles are reduced to metallic
silver. If you were to look at the film after this step, you would see a
black-and-white negative image. Time and temperature of this step are critical
because it determines the density of the transparency.
WASHES
These washes remove all of the first developer from the film so no
further development of the negative image can take place.
REVERSAL
In the predecessors of process E-6, this step was done by exposing the
film to light. In E-6, it is done chemically. A fogging agent acts upon the
undeveloped silver halide particles to render them developable. (Remember,
these are the particles which weren't exposed to light in the camera, and which
weren't developed in the First Developer).
COLOR DEVELOPER
This developer acts upon the particles which were rendered developable
by the Reversal step. As these silver halide particles are reduced to silver,
the complex molecule of the color developing agent reacts with the partial-dye
molecules forming dye clouds IN THE VICINITY OF THE DEVELOPING SILVER
PARTICLES. So the dyes are formed in each layer (yellow, magenta & cyan) most
densely in the areas which weren't exposed to light, and least densely in the
areas which were exposed to light in the camera. After this step, the dye
image is completely formed.
WASHES, STOP BATH, CONDITIONER
These steps vary depending upon the manufacturer of the process, but
all serve to get the color developer washed out of the film. If any color
developer were left in the film, it would form a stain in the bleach.
BLEACH
After the dyes are formed in the Color Developer, the silver in the
film has done its job and is of no further use. All of the original silver
halide in the film has been reduced to metallic silver, either in the First
Developer or in the Color Developer. The Bleach step re-oxidizes all of the
silver into silver bromide.
FIXER
This is essentially a black-and-white fixer. It combines with the
silver bromide particles and renders them soluble so that they can be washed
out of the film. Now all that remains is the dye image.
WASHES
All of the silver bromide and fixer are washed out of the film in this
step. Thorough washing is important for long-term stability.
STABILIZER
This final step contains a wetting agent so water spots don't form on
the film as it dries. It also contains formaldehyde which stabilizes the dyes.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ron Speirs, Evans & Sutherland Computer Corp., Salt Lake City, Utah
Geoff Allen
>P.S. Hey, haven't heard from donl mathis since the new year, is he
> still around?
Yeah, he's around. He got sick over Christmas, and is still fighting it
off. I've gotten a couple of e-mail messages from him, so as soon as
someone posts something to get him going I'm sure we'll hear from him
again.
--
Geoff Allen \ Driggs, Idaho -- cultural hub of the west!
uunet!pmafire!geoff \
ge...@pmafire.inel.gov \ (Tom Harper in rec.skiing)