Hasselblad 501CM versus Mamiya RZ67
Jerry Gardner
primary purposes: studio portraiture and landscape photography. I've
looked at many different brands and models, and have my choices
narrowed down to two: Hasselblad 501CM and Mamiya RZ67 Pro-II.
Since I'll be using whatever I buy strictly on a tripod,
handholdability (is that really a word?) is not important to me.
Neither is weight when I'm in the field--I have other hobbies where I
haul far heavier and bulkier things around with me.
The Hasselblad appeals to me because it appears to be milled from a
solid piece of aluminum and everything fits tight and snug. The
Mamiya seems a little looser. I've also heard, but have not been able
to confirm, that the RZ67ProII uses plastic gears in the film advance
and focusing mechanisms that are easy to strip. Any comments on the
durability of either will be appreciated.
I really like the 6x7 format and the rotating back on the RZ67. I
could probably get used to the 6x6 format, however. The only real
concern I have is finding a 6x7 slide projector as most of my work
has been on slides (35mm).
My concern with the Hasselblad is price of lenses and accessories. My
god, they're astronomical! I've come to the conclusion that
Hasselblad operates in the same manner as a drug dealer: sell you the
initial stuff cheap (501CM kit) to get you hooked, and then charge
outrageous prices for everything else. Someone once joked on a
newsgroup that he sold his Nikon equipment to pay for a Hasselbad
lenscap. Unfortunately, this isn't far from the truth!
The Mamiya is also pretty expensive--if you buy it in the US. For
some reason, MAC seems to charge almost twice as much in the US
compared prices in the rest of the world. Buying Mamiya overseas is
actually quite reasonable, especially lens prices.
So the bottom line, for me, is build quality and durability. The
Hasselblad seems to be better in this regard than the Mamiya. What
I'm looking for here is hearing real-world experiences from people
who have used the RZ67. Is it well-built and durable? Can I expect to
get years of use out of it, or will I be needing repairs on a regular
basis?
Any other comments will be welcomed and appreciated.
--
Jerry Gardner | Bill Clinton has all the steely resolve
w6...@hotmail.com.com | of a kamakaze pilot on his 37th mission.
David Grabowski
wrote:
I havn't used the RZ and have been considering the 501 CM for
replacement of my Mamiya TLRs. However I did skip over the RZ to buy a
used RB 67 Pro S ( could have bought either but I wanted the
mechanical operation with no electronics) and if you are looking into
a new camera you might consider the RB 67Pro SD, that's the current
model. The RB is built a bit more robust than the RZ and is heavier
yet but is also all mechanical. If you go with the KL series lenses
for it you have the latest coatings which are supposed to be the same
as the RZ in taking quality. Either way, and to include the Hassy,
there is plenty out in the used market when you want to add items to
the basics if new sticker shock is of concern.
Incidentally I've totally confused myself presently after going to a
large photo show in Boston over the weekend, we looked at all the
latest model smaller medium format cameras that have hand holding
possibilities and came away really liking the Bronica SQ- B, but it
broke right in front of our eyes. For 645s we liked Mamiya and already
know we like the Pentax but that format would put us into camera
flipping for veritcals ( 90% of what we shoot), so we will keep the
TLRs as our wedding shooters for a while yet and the RB for all our
formals and portraiture either way.
As to projecting 6x7, I don't know what to say there, maybe something
used or from overseas,in the states you are looking at multi thousands
of dollars for new. I will say 6x7s look mighty fine on a light box or
table though and with a viewing loupe you would think you are back on
location. 6x7 also scans wonderfully and with todays technology,
prints from slides are more viable than in the past. 6x7 is a natural
in terms of horizontal composition for scenics and also for
portraiture. If you use vignetting masks or filters in your
portraiture you don't have to guess how the crop will go in relation
to your mask ( one big selling point of the RB for me over a square
camera). In the studio if you intend to print rectangles my advice is
to shoot rectangles. If you see square readilly, go with the Hassy.
The main reason we use 6x6 is that's the way it s been for us in
weddings and location work, we are used to it. Kind of the shoot it
now crop later theory, but after shooting the 6x7 for a season in
family portraiture we are thinking of moving to something different.
The Mamiyas aren't getting any newer and parts less readilly
available, the 501 I would assume to be always repairable and very
reliable ( I question Bronica as of right now). Again , I think if you
want rectangles buy a rectangular shooting camera, there is a learning
curve to shooting square and cropping your images, some people never
get used to it. FWIW, the rotating back is a dream com true, I sure
wish they did that inn some 645.
David Grabowki
annqlee
Both systems are fine performers. The biggest difference is the format size
and price.
If you find yourself composing more rectangular, I would recommend the RZ.
Both systems
are not that heavy considering tripod. The rotating back is a good point for
the RZ.
I don't know the durability of the RZ, but I know that the Pentax 67 is more
durable than the Hassy.
This is for abuse and misuse over hundreds or thousands of people.
You should really consider the Pentax 67 even for studio if you are going to
get the LS lenses to
sync at your heart's desire. The Pentax does not have interchangeable
backs/polaroid
but again they don't ridiculously charge for 120/220 backs. The lenses are
cheaper and great performers.
If you are going to buy new and know some photo students, mamiya, hassy, and
bronica have
student discounts at roughly 30 to 40 % off street prices. Sorry, I already
used up mine.
See you in the field,
Ann
---
http://carcassi.eng.uci.edu/intropictures.htm
Unless your clients are very obsessed to viewing projection, I would not let
that interfere with your
decisions. Besides, you can build one pretty cheap. If I could build one for
8x10, you could too.
"Jerry Gardner" <w6...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:8FEBE668Aw...@10.1.1.2...
Jerry Gardner
>Incidentally I've totally confused myself presently after going to a
>large photo show in Boston over the weekend, we looked at all the
>latest model smaller medium format cameras that have hand holding
>possibilities and came away really liking the Bronica SQ- B, but it
>broke right in front of our eyes.
David,
How did the SQ-B break?
--
Jerry Gardner | Bill Clinton has all the steely resolve of
email: w6...@hotmail.com | a kamikaze pilot on his 37th mission.
David Grabowski
wrote:
>David Grabowski said:
>>Incidentally I've totally confused myself presently after going to a
>>large photo show in Boston over the weekend, we looked at all the
>>latest model smaller medium format cameras that have hand holding
>>possibilities and came away really liking the Bronica SQ- B, but it
>>broke right in front of our eyes.
>
>David,
>
>How did the SQ-B break?
Well we looked at it and decided to look around other booths and then
it dawned on me we didn't try it with the eye level viewer ( prism
finder) , so we went back to the Bronica booth. I asked the guy to see
the SQ-B a second time and to change it over to the other viewer and
that I wanted to see the inside with the back off, asked about metal
gearing and so on. He did all this , put it together and I took a look
around the area with the viewer changed over , handed it to my wife
who did the same and handed it back to me. I looked though it again,
focused on various people and things and fired the shutter but
nothing happened, tried again , nothing happened and explained to the
rep that there seemed to be a problem. He took the components apart,
pushed some pins, moved some levers up front and tried the shutter
exclaiming hmm. Probed around for probably five minutes trying to get
the body itself to respond , said if the battery were dead it should
default to a manual 1/500, but still no fire. Then said sorry guys and
he would figure it out and we walked away.
So, nothing broke off but it didn't work any longer either. One thing
I want to move to is a reliable camera with very easy defaults, I
won't ban the SQ-B from my thinking yet, but let's just say I didn't
like how this went down.
The Pentax 645N by the way, seems very well built, I wish it had more
available leaf shutter lenses. THe Mamiya 645E wasn't so bad, very
good deal for the show pricing too, but I like a back rather than
inserts, though I could live with inserts for weddings. We really like
the SQ-B best for handling and viewing over the rest. Good
interchangeability, prism and waist level finder , backs in 6x6 and
645. Very small for a 6x6 and it has leaf shutter lenses but they
aren't worth much if you can't fire them !
David Grabowski
>
>--
>Jerry Gardner | Bill Clinton has all the steely resolve of
>email: w6...@hotmail.com | a kamikaze pilot on his 37th mission.
Op's
annqlee wrote:
> Jerry,
>
> Both systems are fine performers. The biggest difference is the format size
> and price.
> If you find yourself composing more rectangular, I would recommend the RZ.
> Both systems
> are not that heavy considering tripod. The rotating back is a good point for
> the RZ.
>
> I don't know the durability of the RZ, but I know that the Pentax 67 is more
> durable than the Hassy.
The main problem I have with the RZ is keeping the electrical pins clean so they
connect all the camera up (prism, back , lens & winder). Have not had any
mechanical problems except wear and tear over 18 years of having the RZ system.
I like to use the RZ - the backs also are easier to load than the hasselblad.
For me the RZ system was cheaper although the Hasselblad allows 20% extra
economy in film. The closer focusing of the RZ has its advantages.
The RB - its forgetting to advance the film after each shot with the double
action - the earlier RB lenses were not that brilliant either.
Still use the Hasselblad but find the SQ format creates problems, I think
composition within the frame as you tend to use the frame to advantage - people
think rectangular and that rectangular trannies are more acceptable that SQ.
You can have just as many problems with either the RZ or HBlad. They will both
wear out and have to be serviced.
rm
John Halliwell
<w6...@hotmail.com> writes
>I'm considering the purchase of a medium format camera for two
>primary purposes: studio portraiture and landscape photography. I've
>looked at many different brands and models, and have my choices
>narrowed down to two: Hasselblad 501CM and Mamiya RZ67 Pro-II.
I've also been considering the same choices (except perhaps a used
Hassey that can take an AE finder). I currently have a Mamiya 645 Pro
and am looking for a bigger format (a Hassey may replace it, an RZ would
be in addition I think). Also the Pentax 67II impresses me greatly
(mainly the handling I think).
For me handholdability is more important (not so much the RZ). My
concerns on the Hassey include the very high price, but also the
shooting/loading routine. I've read various comments that suggest the
camera and the back have to be in the same part of the 'wind-on' cycle
to work properly. Do Hassey backs have a dark slide storage slot?
I want to be able to shoot portraits with a WLF amongst other things,
and don't mind the square format. If I shot square, I'd want to print
square (can't visualise the shot after cropping). At the moment I'm
using a C330f & 80mm lens but would prefer SLR viewing. I may just save
lots of money and look for more lenses for the C330.
I guess the Bronica SQAi is another option, but for the money I'd prefer
to throw it at a Hassey. I did have a look at an RZ67 Pro II, it felt
OK, but perhaps didn't feel like I expected (can't put my finger on it).
Is the difference between the 6x6 and 6x7 formats that much anyway? 6x6
is square, 6x7 sounds 'almost square', is there a noticeable difference?
--
John
Preston, Lancs, UK.
Photos at http://www.photopia.demon.co.uk
David Grabowski
John,
I shoot 6x6 and 6x7 and almost always crop my 6x6s to rectangular
images. This is a bit of a waste unless you consider the use, weddings
are easy to shoot and then crop later as long as you leave the space
to do it in.
As to the difference , yes it is noticable if you crop at all and it
is very noticable in slides or in scanning. There is a bit more info
there, especially if you crop for a standard print size, the
difference can make or break a digital image in terms of stored file
size in megs with lesser scanners, say a 13- 15 meg file saved vs
25megs.You say you will print square but how long before you decide
you want a particular image in a rectangle? Sometimes they really do
look better rectangular and you don't know till you crop, which is an
argument for either view I suppose.
One word for you to ponder, don't judge the RZ or RB for hand holding
until you put a grip or bracket on it, I thought my RB awkward for
hand holding until I did this and then wondered what all the fuss was
about with hand holding these monsters . THey go well with a standard
or wide lens and waist level finder , I wouldn't do this with the
45deg. prism and a long lens though, that's tripod material for sure.
The Bronicas are nice handling, the SQ series feel real nice in my
hands at least and a bracket would top it right off, I really liked
the SQ-B personally but I don't really need TTL, others may find the
Ai a must have ( the SQ-B is a stipped version). Things to think about
with Bronica: if you use the C330 now you must like leaf shutter
lenses for outdoor portraits, the Bronica has this. If you like square
, the Bronica has this. If you want to move to removeable backs , the
Bronica has this. If you ewant at some pojnt in time to move to 645 ,
just change backs with Bronica. The Bronica SQ series are a dream to
hand hold, well ballanced , not heavy. You can buy a new Bronica for
the price of a used Hassy almost feature for feature but will it work
as long ( the one I looked at didn't let us finish the demo).
David Grabowski
Rick Schiller
the on/up position? On the ETRS it has to be to fire the camera without a
loaded film back on it. Unless there is a film back with advanceable film in
it, the body will not fire unless the double exposure is on. And, yes, the
factory rep should know this, but just maybe he or she didn't.
Rick
In article <3a11b7c0....@newshost.capecod.net>, nim...@capecod.net
says...
>
>On Tue, 14 Nov 2000 20:21:43 GMT, w6...@hotmail.com (Jerry Gardner)
>wrote:
>
>>David Grabowski said:
>>>Incidentally I've totally confused myself presently after going to a
>>>large photo show in Boston over the weekend, we looked at all the
>>>latest model smaller medium format cameras that have hand holding
>>>possibilities and came away really liking the Bronica SQ- B, but it
>>>broke right in front of our eyes.
>>
>>--
>>Jerry Gardner | Bill Clinton has all the steely resolve of
>>email: w6...@hotmail.com | a kamikaze pilot on his 37th mission.
>
David Grabowski
wrote:
>I wonder if the Bronica was really broken. Was the double exposure lever in
>the on/up position? On the ETRS it has to be to fire the camera without a
>loaded film back on it. Unless there is a film back with advanceable film in
>it, the body will not fire unless the double exposure is on. And, yes, the
>factory rep should know this, but just maybe he or she didn't.
>
>Rick
There was another person interested in seeing the camera that knew
about this feature and mentioned that , the rep said he knew this as
well. I don't know what went wrong, I lost interest at that point
since the rep was obviously getting to where he would be setting it
aside ( he had other people to tend to and this was drawing
attention). Like you, my wife thinks is was a function not set right
but I tell most people it broke !
I like the Bronica line, they have many features that interest me for
what we do but don't want a problematic system either. The RB Pro S
has that same feature you mention though its in the back since thats
where you wind the frame forward from, so we are used to little
idiosyncrasies. Things like flipping little levers and forgetting to
return them later or shutter lock outs can be a pain in the butt if
you don't know about them, this is all well and good. What I don't
want is something that takes repair because you didn't fallow a
sequense , or idiosyncrasies that truly lead to a non operational
camera.
David Grabowski
Zeljko Kardum
>
> I'm considering the purchase of a medium format camera for two
> primary purposes: studio portraiture and landscape photography. I've
> looked at many different brands and models, and have my choices
> narrowed down to two: Hasselblad 501CM and Mamiya RZ67 Pro-II.
>
> Since I'll be using whatever I buy strictly on a tripod,
> handholdability (is that really a word?) is not important to me.
> Neither is weight when I'm in the field--I have other hobbies where I
> haul far heavier and bulkier things around with me.
Both cameras are professional cameras and build quality is fine.
Both cameras will tear off and need regular service if you use it
extensively.
I have and prefer Hasselblad cause it's more simple and easier to use (I
do care about handholdability).
It's just a matter of individual taste.
Picture quality is the same (or almost the same). For practical purposes
(business) there is no difference.
However slides have little bit different look. I would not say that
Zeiss lenses are better than Mamiya, but they are definitely different.
Kind regards
Zeljko
Q.G. de Bakker
> [...]
> For me handholdability is more important (not so much the RZ). My
> concerns on the Hassey include the very high price, but also the
> shooting/loading routine. I've read various comments that suggest the
> camera and the back have to be in the same part of the 'wind-on' cycle
> to work properly. Do Hassey backs have a dark slide storage slot? [...]
All detachable filmbacks have to "match" the camera when they are replaced.
If the film in the back has been exposed, but not yet transported before
taking the back off camera, you'll have to make sure not to expose the frame
again. If onthe other hand the film in the back has been transported before
the back was taken off, and you put it on a camera that has not been reset
after the last exposure, resetting the camera will wind the film one extra
frame, wasting film. This is not peculiar to Hasselblad.
The latest "generation" of Hasselblad backs do indeed have a dark slide
storage facility.
Robert Monaghan
larger in the limiting dimension for enlargements vs 6x6 or
6x4.5cm; unfortunately, most of the cameras are a good bit more than 25%
larger in 6x7 except maybe mamiya 7 rf or folders/oldies?...
see mamiya's why size counts images at
http://www.mamiya.com/Section1/03.Why/sizes.html
the 6x7 has a bigger impact as a slide on buyers than 6x4.5 or 6x6cm, and
a number of 4x5" types report being happy with compromising down to 6x7cm
for cost/weight/portability and speed reasons etc.
HTH bobm
--
* Robert Monaghan POB752182 Dallas Tx 75275-2182 rmon...@post.cis.smu.edu *
* Third Party 35mm Lenses: http://www.smu.edu/~rmonagha/third/index.html *
* Medium Format Cameras: http://www.smu.edu/~rmonagha/mf/index.html megasite*
Eugene A. Pallat
not rent both for a few days and try them out? After a while you might
notice one or the other is easier to use or have more features you like.
That's enought of a reason to choose one or another.
Since you alse said that you'll be using a tripod, you would be very hard
pressed to find a difference in quality between them.
--
Gene Pallat
Orion Data Systems
Orion Forensics
Solicitations to me must be pre-approved in writing
by me after soliciitor pays $1,000 US per incident.
Solicitations sent to me are proof you accept this
notice and will send a certified check forthwith.
Steve Gombosi
Jerry Gardner <w6...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>My concern with the Hasselblad is price of lenses and accessories. My
Buy used. There's tons of used gear out there - you can use any 500-series
lenses or accessories made in the last 43 years. Hasselblad USA
will service pretty much all of it, as will independent Hasselblad
repair folks.
Either that or buy through one of the international (Hong Kong, Cayman
Islands, etc) dealers that ship to the US.
>god, they're astronomical!
Of course they are. That's how they got to the moon ;-).
>I've come to the conclusion that
>Hasselblad operates in the same manner as a drug dealer: sell you the
>initial stuff cheap (501CM kit) to get you hooked, and then charge
>outrageous prices for everything else. Someone once joked on a
>newsgroup that he sold his Nikon equipment to pay for a Hasselbad
>lenscap. Unfortunately, this isn't far from the truth!
>The Mamiya is also pretty expensive--if you buy it in the US. For
>some reason, MAC seems to charge almost twice as much in the US
>compared prices in the rest of the world. Buying Mamiya overseas is
>actually quite reasonable, especially lens prices.
Yes, but IIRC MAC won't service items purchased overseas...even
if you're willing to pay them to do it.
Steve
Steve Gombosi
Q.G. de Bakker <q...@worldonline.nl> wrote:
>John Halliwell wrote:
<snip>
>> Do Hassey backs have a dark slide storage slot? [...]
<snip>
>The latest "generation" of Hasselblad backs do indeed have a dark slide
>storage facility.
And Lindahl makes one for the older backs. It's only $20.
I've got 3 - they work quite well.
http://www.lslindahl.com/New99Prod.htm
Steve
Cary F. Yelin
from the relatively inexpensive 6001 through to the amazing 6008, I
think you are really missing a bet. Particularly for studio work, the
electric drive should prove a real bonus. Also, they have available a
4.5 X 6 back that allows the format to be switched from horizontal to
vertical without removing the camera from a tripod, almost like a
revolving back. The lenses are pricey, but overall this camera system
is a better buy than the Hasselblad and much more convenient to use or
carry around than the weighty, bulky Mamiya 67.
Jerry Gardner
Cary,
Aren't the Rollie lenses even more expensive than Hasselblad? I've also heard
that there isn't much of a used or rental market for Rollie lenses. I live in
the SF Bay Area and the big rental places don't seem to rent any Rollie gear.
As I mentioned in a prior post, weight and bulk are not important to me. A 7-
8 pound camera like a Mamiya 67 is pretty small and light compared to some of
the other stuff I drag around.
--
Jerry Gardner | Bill Clinton has all the steely resolve of
email: w6...@hotmail.com | a kamikaze pilot on his 37th mission.
Roy L. Jacobs
crop it to 6x4.5. The RZ is a heavy camera to tote around, although the
Pentax 67 is no lightweight. for studio work the Pentax 67 is not a good
choice and either of the others is a better fit. Rent them and see which you
like.
"Jerry Gardner" <w6...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:8FEBE668Aw...@10.1.1.2...
Q.G. de Bakker
> For landscape I would choose the Pentax 67 over the Hassy, especially if
you
> crop it to 6x4.5. The RZ is a heavy camera to tote around, although the
> Pentax 67 is no lightweight. for studio work the Pentax 67 is not a good
> choice and either of the others is a better fit. Rent them and see which
you
> like.
If you're going to crop to 6x4.5 there are better options than using a 6x7
camera, either Mamiya or Pentax. How about one of the many available 6x4.5
cameras?