Advice for a cheap MF system, Bronica or Kiev
fivefourteen
I want to get a MF camera for basic lighting work and "point and shoot"
fun. Nothing expensive. I am leaning more to 6x6 since 6x4.5 is too
close to 35mm. Is that a correct assessment?
I have never owned a MF camera so I was wondering the reliability and
availability of parts and systems for the Bronica S2, SqA, SqAi etc.
and the Kiev 88 or so. Are the bronica lenses interchangeable? Are
they still in business? Are they good systems to test lighting systems,
flash syncs etc.
I own an 8x10 camera but I want something small to "point and shoot"
and cheap.
Thanks,
Ann
G- Blank
"fivefourteen" <artys...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> Hi All,
>
> I want to get a MF camera for basic lighting work and "point and shoot"
> fun. Nothing expensive. I am leaning more to 6x6 since 6x4.5 is too
> close to 35mm. Is that a correct assessment?
The main thing is 6x6 is croppable to Vert or Horz.
Its was used a lot by magazines for that reason. If the film is sharp
and the image will be uncropped then yes it represents a much larger
foot print than 6.45 With SQ the relative size of the cameras is about
the same so 6x6 can be hand held.
> I have never owned a MF camera so I was wondering the reliability and
> availability of parts and systems for the Bronica S2, SqA, SqAi etc.
> and the Kiev 88 or so. Are the bronica lenses interchangeable? Are
> they still in business? Are they good systems to test lighting systems,
> flash syncs etc.
There are probably people that service the cameras although Bronica
is now out of business.
>
> I own an 8x10 camera but I want something small to "point and shoot"
> and cheap.
Define "cheap".
> Thanks,
>
> Ann
--
"To announce that there must be no criticism of the President,
or that we are to stand by the President, right or wrong,
is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable
to the American public."--Theodore Roosevelt, May 7, 1918
greg_____photo(dot)com
Nick Zentena
Then I'd lean towards the 645. 6x6 is pretty square -) Even squarer then
8x10. I'd only go 6x6 if you really want the square. The 645 once you add
the metering finder and maybe a grip is already a big package. The 6x6 is
that much bigger. I wouldn't call even the 645 small. OTOH if you can live
with just the waist level finder and no grip it's actually not that big.
Bronica ETRSI:
Leaf shutter on all lenses.
Backs and finders can be changed.
TTL flash with the flash module.
Fairly cheap today on the used market.
Bronica SQ-AI:
Same thing except 6x6 and a bit more money.
It's also heavier.
I see no reason to go with the older systems. They aren't that much cheaper.
They are of course older.
Tamron the company that made Bronica cameras is still kicking but they've
stopped new production of all MF cameras. OTOH things are so cheap now you
could buy two of everything used and still pay less then buying one would
have cost you new.
Nick
--
---------------------------------------
"Digital the new ice fishing"
---------------------------------------
rafe b
"fivefourteen" <artys...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1136565573.1...@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> Hi All,
>
> I want to get a MF camera for basic lighting work and "point and shoot"
> fun. Nothing expensive. I am leaning more to 6x6 since 6x4.5 is too
> close to 35mm. Is that a correct assessment?
It's a 3x increase in film area. That's worth something.
> I have never owned a MF camera so I was wondering the reliability and
> availability of parts and systems for the Bronica S2, SqA, SqAi etc.
> and the Kiev 88 or so. Are the bronica lenses interchangeable? Are
> they still in business? Are they good systems to test lighting systems,
> flash syncs etc.
>
> I own an 8x10 camera but I want something small to "point and shoot"
> and cheap.
Why not consider used Pentax or Mamiya. They're
still around, and accessories are plentiful on the used
market or new, for that matter.
I picked up a used Pentax 67, with normal lens and
TTL prsim in nice condition, for $430 on eBay.
A beautiful wide angle lens for this camera will set
you back another $400 or so (used, of course.)
I'm thinking 55 mm or 45 mm f/4.
rafe b
www.terrapinphoto.com
Dave the Guy
on an "upgrade" from my yashica mat124 and it's a tossup between rb/z
67 and the pentax.
By the way, for the original poster, a TLR is lots of fun and a bit
less intimidating looking to other people than a mamoth SLR and lens.
It does have obvious drawbacks, like non-TTL metering (if it even has a
meter), parallax at closer distances, and non-interchangeable lenses
(with the exception of a few mamiya models).
Mike King
one for $800, too much? 500CM, two backs, prism, old style compendium,
nifty 'blad case with rails that bodies will mount on to, and a copy of
Ernst Wilde's excellent book, The Hasselblad Way. Much more reliable than
some others I could name. And will keep running long after the electronic
cameras Bronica Mamiya 645 etc. are dead due to no parts or the companies
Bronica again have folder their tents. Since then I added an adapter to use
my 52mm Nikon filters another back, a Polaroid back and some close-up
mutars.
If you must buy Russian, buy a Kiev 66 not an 88, you won;t get the
interchangeable backs but the camera is much easier to work on and the build
quality is better.
Other MF?
RB-67, mechanical, not electronic, see everything I said about 'blad, note
tho' that RB's are heavy. Studio workhorses look out for bodies and 180's
that are worn out, other lenses not so used safer to buy unseen.
Rapid Omega, not a system but there are 3 readily available lenses. Great
film transport, good for aerials.
Mamiya C TLR's I own three bodies, four viewfinders and four lenses, gave
about $500-$600 have used it for 12 years (one body is now jammed, will
probably end up a donor for the other C-220 someday.
Yashica and Yashicamat. The 124G is the one everyone wants but I used to
have a Yashica A and a Yashica C, they use a red window film advance, very
easy and the A even required separate cocking. Had a very nice iris and
nice bokeh. Manual film advance and shutter cocking means simple and easy
to work on.
The only Bronica worth having is the S2-A, film advance problems that
plagued the C, S, and S2 were eliminated, everything since is electronic. I
never liked mine much but tastes vary.
Kowa 6, my favorite is the 6MM, did not care for the Six or the Super near
so much, but the Super has interchangeable backs including Polaroid. Lens
selection is pretty good.
--
darkroommike
"fivefourteen" <artys...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1136565573.1...@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
rafe b
"Dave the Guy" <hairles...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1136570922.4...@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com...
> How do you feel about the mirror slap vibration? I'm trying to decide
> on an "upgrade" from my yashica mat124 and it's a tossup between rb/z
> 67 and the pentax.
It's not a problem, but if the camera's on a tripod and I remember it, I use
mirror lockup.
I often forget to do the MLU thing, and yet the images are no worse for it.
I started with Pentax and Mamiya 645.
rafe b
www.terrapinphoto.com
Noons
> How do you feel about the mirror slap vibration? I'm trying to decide
> on an "upgrade" from my yashica mat124 and it's a tossup between rb/z
> 67 and the pentax.
The rb/z67 needs a special cable release to do mlu properly.
Otr at the very least a dedicated cable release. Nothing major, but
something to keep in mind. Don't know about the pentax, but I do recall
that older (cheaper?) models didn't have one?
IMHO, mlu is essential - even in something as big as a rb67 - for any
shutter speeds below 1/60.
--
Cheers
Nuno Souto
in sunny Sydney, Australia
wizo...@yahoo.com.au.nospam
Matt Clara
news:43bed332$0$15782$5a62...@per-qv1-newsreader-01.iinet.net.au...
> Dave the Guy apparently said,on my timestamp of 7/01/2006 5:08 AM:
> > How do you feel about the mirror slap vibration? I'm trying to decide
> > on an "upgrade" from my yashica mat124 and it's a tossup between rb/z
> > 67 and the pentax.
>
> The rb/z67 needs a special cable release to do mlu properly.
> Otr at the very least a dedicated cable release. Nothing major, but
> something to keep in mind. Don't know about the pentax, but I do recall
> that older (cheaper?) models didn't have one?
> IMHO, mlu is essential - even in something as big as a rb67 - for any
> shutter speeds below 1/60.
>
They don't "need" it, you just hook your regular cable release up to the mlu
switch and trip the mirror first the usual way (with the usual shutter
release), and then release the shutter with the cable release. It's not at
all difficult, and those divided cables go for $60, as I recall.
--
Regards,
Matt Clara
www.mattclara.com
Noons
>
> I own an 8x10 camera but I want something small to "point and shoot"
> and cheap.
From previous comments here and in a few other places, Kievs seem
not to be as good value as they used to be. Simply because on epay
nowadays medium format gear is in some cases cheaper than 35mm!
I've set myself up with a rb67 for less than it'd have cost me to
gear up with say a Nikon F5. Hey, a rb67 is "small" compared
to 8X10! :)
This to say: consider sticking with models that are still supported
and from well known brands. Like a Mamiya 645 or even an old
Hasselblad. Careful with the Hassies though: the lenses are still
very expensive. I'd give the M645 or a 1000S a try. Pentax also
made some very good 645 models.
Bronicas are very good but with the cameras not being made
anymore you may eventually have a maintenance problem in your
hands. Although I suspect someone may well step in and do it as
a hobby or sideshow.
A TLR is also an option if you don't want any complexity, just
simple P&S. If you find a Yashicamat124G, it even has metering
IIRC. They go on ebay for around $250 when in good nick.
Very light cameras if weight is a concern. If you find one, have
it checked out for light leakage between the lenses: if it has
been abused this could be a problem.
Same goes for any cameras with removable backs: most likely the
light seals would have gone. Many folks sell their gear on epay
for a song because of this problem, unaware that it is dirt easy
to fix. Take advantage and do the fixing yourself?
As for the diff between 645 and 6x6: hey, there's a lot more
difference between those two and anything else than between them.
So quit worrying and go for the one that gets you better value.
That's as far as I'll weigh in on the "square vs everything else"
argument...
Noons
>>
>>The rb/z67 needs a special cable release to do mlu properly.
>>Otr at the very least a dedicated cable release. Nothing major, but
>>something to keep in mind. Don't know about the pentax, but I do recall
>>that older (cheaper?) models didn't have one?
>>IMHO, mlu is essential - even in something as big as a rb67 - for any
>>shutter speeds below 1/60.
>>
>
>
> They don't "need" it, you just hook your regular cable release up to the mlu
> switch and trip the mirror first the usual way (with the usual shutter
> release), and then release the shutter with the cable release. It's not at
> all difficult, and those divided cables go for $60, as I recall.
>
Isn't that what I said? "at the very least a dedicated cable release"...
UC
Etaoin Shurdlu
news:1136565573.1...@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
>
> I want to get a MF camera for basic lighting work and "point and shoot"
> fun. Nothing expensive.
HOLGA!
uraniumc...@yahoo.com
uraniumc...@yahoo.com
hassy_user
these days, with the exception of certain rangefinders. You can get a
basic Hasselblad setup for $500.
UC
Matt Clara
I think I get ya, you're just saying it's not exactly like other cameras,
but it seems you're implying it's a pain in the neck, when it really isn't
(granted, you did say "probably nothing major"). But I'm also confused by
your use of the word "dedicated". After all, it doesn't need a dedicated
cable release, it can use the same one you use on your Rollei, or Nikon F3,
or large format camera; further, you can in fact utilize mirror lockup on
the RB without a cable release at all, though the only reason to do so would
be the fact that you forgot/lost/broke your cable release. I've forgotten
mine more than once!
Joseph Burke
lenses are super sharp and auto exposure thats dead on. I use both
Hasselblad 500 series and RolleiFlex Tlr's (3,5 Planar F) and for 6x6 on the
go I prefer the RolleiFlex as it gives up nothing to the Hasselblad in
sharpness but maybe a little in contrast which can be positive in my
opinion. Sure the Hasselblad is more versatile but I can easily adapt to the
only one lens issue with the Rollei--I actually have several Rollei TLR's
plus several Tele models (135 mm Zeiss Sonnar). I have a first class user
with Zeiss Planar 3,5, fully serviced by Harry Fleenor and a Maxwell Split
Image focus screen installed and the camera adjusted for it--It doesn't get
any better!! $700
Joseph Burke
"fivefourteen" <artys...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1136565573.1...@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
Stacey
> Hi All,
>
> I want to get a MF camera for basic lighting work and "point and shoot"
> fun. Nothing expensive. I am leaning more to 6x6 since 6x4.5 is too
> close to 35mm. Is that a correct assessment?
No.
>
> I have never owned a MF camera so I was wondering the reliability and
> availability of parts and systems for the Bronica S2, SqA, SqAi etc.
> and the Kiev 88 or so.
Do NOT, I repeat do NOT buy a K88. Been there and those are THE most
unreliable camera ever made. The Kiev 60 isn't awful but it too can have
it's share of issues. The glass is OK but much of it isn't that great. Old
designs with poor QC but there are a few exceptions like the 180mm sonnar,
the 30mm fisheye, the 55mm shift arsat etc.
All that said, get the old M645 mamiya. It's as cheap as a Kiew is now and
is a GREAT system. Reliable, good glass and just works like it should.
--
Stacey
Mike King
more. This is pretty much and apples vs. oraanges thing.
--
darkroommike
"Noons" <wizo...@yahoo.com.au> wrote in message
news:43bed70f$0$15767$5a62...@per-qv1-newsreader-01.iinet.net.au...
John
>All that said, get the old M645 mamiya. It's as cheap as a Kiew is now and
>is a GREAT system. Reliable, good glass and just works like it should.
LOL ! Mamiya 645 and reliable in the same paragraph ! Much better off
with a P67 or an RB. Now there is reliability !
JD
Randall Ainsworth
fivefourteen <artys...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> I want to get a MF camera for basic lighting work and "point and shoot"
> fun. Nothing expensive. I am leaning more to 6x6 since 6x4.5 is too
> close to 35mm. Is that a correct assessment?
>
> I have never owned a MF camera so I was wondering the reliability and
> availability of parts and systems for the Bronica S2, SqA, SqAi etc.
> and the Kiev 88 or so. Are the bronica lenses interchangeable? Are
> they still in business? Are they good systems to test lighting systems,
> flash syncs etc.
Well, you couldn't make two crappier choices...
Roy Mock
"fivefourteen" <artys...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1136565573.1...@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
If a small and P&S are your prime objectives, I wonder if one of those MF
rangefinder cameras may be fit-for-purpose e.g. Fuji or the like.
Cheers.
Noons
>
> I think I get ya, you're just saying it's not exactly like other cameras,
> but it seems you're implying it's a pain in the neck, when it really isn't
> (granted, you did say "probably nothing major"). But I'm also confused by
> your use of the word "dedicated". After all, it doesn't need a dedicated
> cable release, it can use the same one you use on your Rollei, or Nikon F3,
> or large format camera; further, you can in fact utilize mirror lockup on
> the RB without a cable release at all, though the only reason to do so would
> be the fact that you forgot/lost/broke your cable release. I've forgotten
> mine more than once!
My apologies: poor choice of words on my part. I meant "dedicated"
as in: "must use at least" a single cable release to get the
mirror-up. Nothing major but a RPITA if you forget the cable:
as you well point out.
I prefer the dual cable release for one reason only: can have it
constantly on and use mirror-up all the time with a "double-click".
Got mine for a song on epay so it didn't hurt much.
How do you mirror-up without any cable at all? That little dial on
the lens is fiddly unless you have a rock solid tripod, no?
Mind you: between the mamiya and the pentax, I pick the rb67 for
less shake. The lens shutter causes a lot less vibration and the
body is so heavy it tends to absorb most of the shakes anyways.
Only had problems with less than 1/60 although a lot of people
say anything less than 1/125 is deadly on the rb67.
Of course: IMHO, YMMV, no animals harmed testing these ideas, etcetc.
Matt Clara
Yeah, well you can tell I was bored to even feel the need to bring it up...
;-)
As for mirror lockup without a cable, the mlu knob is indeed a bit fiddly,
but if you get it up out of its detent and rotate it a little bit forward,
it will rest there without tripping the shutter, then there's less fiddling
involved, all you have to do is gently rotate the knob a millimeter or two
to release the shutter. It works in a pinch, though it's not prefered over
a cable release, of course. Using mirror lockup, I've never had a problem
with sharpness and my RB, but then I'm not overly critical. I did blow this
one up to 30 x 30 inches--it's hanging on my livingroom wall--and the
flowers and blades of grass in the foreground are very sharp, though it
kinda goes down hill from there. At a normal viewing distance, it looks
great: http://www.mattclara.com/connemara.html
Gordon Moat
> . . . . . . . . I did blow this
> one up to 30 x 30 inches--it's hanging on my livingroom wall--and the
> flowers and blades of grass in the foreground are very sharp, though it
> kinda goes down hill from there. At a normal viewing distance, it looks
> great: http://www.mattclara.com/connemara.html
>
Hello Matt,
Nice shot. I like the one after that "Hiroshi Tanimoto" too. Nice work.
Ciao!
Gordon Moat
A G Studio
<http://www.allgstudio.com>
gta
> Hi All,
>
> I want to get a MF camera for basic lighting work and "point and shoot"
> fun. Nothing expensive. I am leaning more to 6x6 since 6x4.5 is too
> close to 35mm. Is that a correct assessment?
>
> I have never owned a MF camera so I was wondering the reliability and
> availability of parts and systems for the Bronica S2, SqA, SqAi etc.
> and the Kiev 88 or so. Are the bronica lenses interchangeable? Are
> they still in business? Are they good systems to test lighting systems,
> flash syncs etc.
>
> I own an 8x10 camera but I want something small to "point and shoot"
> and cheap.
>
>
> Ann
>
http://www.mamiya.com/compare.asp?id=4&id2=129&id3=1110
Mamiya goes over the basic differences between each format.
I have personally used the following cameras.
Mamiya C220 TLR 6X6 inexpensive to get into, has about four lenses,
leaf shutter lenses, Not a point and shoot. 12 frames per roll of 12o film.
Hasablad C500 SLR 6X6 leaf shutter lens older bodies and lenes are
inexpensive. Newer bodies with motor drive are holding there prices. 12
frames per roll of 120
Bronica ETRSI 645 body leaf shutter lenes. Bronica has stopped making
medium format cameras in 2005, so the prices have dropped a lot. By law
Bronica has to supply parts and repair for seven years. 15 frames per
roll of 120
Pentax 645N Auto focus, auto exposure with three metering modes. Focal
Plane shutter. A very long list of lenes from 35mm thru 400mm autofocus
16 frames per roll of 120 The only drawbacks to this camera are 1/60
of a second flash sync and you cannot remove the backs in the middle of
a roll of film. I still use this camera which is about the size of a
Nikon F4 camera and has a built in motor drive. I can use it slow in
the studio or fast in the field like a 35mm. This is a great camera.
UC
Da's white!!!!!
Matt Clara
news:43C16B61...@attglobal.net...
> Matt Clara wrote:
>> . . . . . . . . I did blow this
>> one up to 30 x 30 inches--it's hanging on my livingroom wall--and the
>> flowers and blades of grass in the foreground are very sharp, though it
>> kinda goes down hill from there. At a normal viewing distance, it looks
>> great: http://www.mattclara.com/connemara.html
>>
>
>
> Hello Matt,
>
> Nice shot. I like the one after that "Hiroshi Tanimoto" too. Nice work.
>
Thanks Gordon, means a lot coming from you. The photo of Hiroshi is the
only other photo of mine hanging in my livingroom. He makes tasty and
unique sushi, too. Kind of a japanese/european fusion.
John
wrote:
>Mind you: between the mamiya and the pentax, I pick the rb67 for
>less shake. The lens shutter causes a lot less vibration and the
>body is so heavy it tends to absorb most of the shakes anyways.
>Only had problems with less than 1/60 although a lot of people
>say anything less than 1/125 is deadly on the rb67.
Also note that the mirror in the RB is a very thin lightweight unit.
I've never ntoiced any vibration in mine.
JD
fivefourteen
Thanks for the advice, I don't want to spend alot of money, say $300
for a basic system. I saw some pentax 645 or mamiya 645 for that price
on Ebay. I imagine they are about the same quality, splitting hairs. I
have not used them but have used the p67 and the mommy rb,6 and 7 and
they are nice little beasts.
I don't want to chunk down $1000 bucks for a decent digital slr, even
then I still find the quality somewhat ok, I like the look of film
better anyways.
Often times, I find interesting subjects but don't have my 8x10 and its
time for me to get back to MF. At least I can wear those MF like a cool
necklace :).
Thanks all and keep shooting.
Ann
fivefourteen wrote:
> Hi All,
>
> I want to get a MF camera for basic lighting work and "point and shoot"
> fun. Nothing expensive. I am leaning more to 6x6 since 6x4.5 is too
> close to 35mm. Is that a correct assessment?
>
> I have never owned a MF camera so I was wondering the reliability and
> availability of parts and systems for the Bronica S2, SqA, SqAi etc.
> and the Kiev 88 or so. Are the bronica lenses interchangeable? Are
> they still in business? Are they good systems to test lighting systems,
> flash syncs etc.
>
seog
news:1136570922.4...@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com...
> How do you feel about the mirror slap vibration? I'm trying to decide
> on an "upgrade" from my yashica mat124 and it's a tossup between rb/z
> 67 and the pentax.
>
I just got a Bronica GS-1 system. Amazingly light, small & quiet and these
days, cheap. You can get a unique rotary prism so you can do waist level
shooting horizontal or vertical.
6x6 is 645 cropped with the added bonus of having 3 formats (66 V&H, 645)
without turning the camera.
Noons
> but if you get it up out of its detent and rotate it a little bit forward,
> it will rest there without tripping the shutter, then there's less fiddling
> involved, all you have to do is gently rotate the knob a millimeter or two
> to release the shutter. It works in a pinch, though it's not prefered over
Ah yes, see what you mean. Thanks, good to know this.
I've always sort of lifted and twiddled it without noticing it's
possible to
do this!
> one up to 30 x 30 inches--it's hanging on my livingroom wall--and the
> flowers and blades of grass in the foreground are very sharp, though it
> kinda goes down hill from there. At a normal viewing distance, it looks
> great: http://www.mattclara.com/connemara.html
Nice photos! Fighting a small problem with 6x7 slides and negatives
on the 4990 scanner: haven't got the latest vuescan tweaked yet.
Will put something up as I figure WTH I'm doing wrong.
Dying to get the xmas-present a3 printer busy!
Patrick L
"fivefourteen" <artys...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1136565573.1...@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
>
> I want to get a MF camera for basic lighting work and "point and shoot"
> fun. Nothing expensive. I am leaning more to 6x6 since 6x4.5 is too
> close to 35mm. Is that a correct assessment?
No.
For "point and shoot" fun, the Fuji GA645 Zi is about as close to MF P&S
as you will ever get.
They go for about $800 used. Autofocus, to boot. Great street MF
camera, and it is small, inconspicous.
Leaf shutter great for fill flash, and built in flash, which never gets red
eye, from my experience, is fine for snaps, eliminating the need for a big
bulky flash unit, unless you want better versatility with flash, of course,
then get a Vivitar or something. Also, the viewfinder has a vertical
orientation. The metering, though not TTL, is excellent, I find. Lens,
though not fast, is very sharp, 55mm - 90mm zoom range, which is about
35 - 50 on a 35mm camera. It will also imprint shooting data on frames,
but I haven't figured out how to configure the camera to do this. Other
SLR-like features, AEL, Exposure bracketing are possible, and film loads
from the back, llike a 35mm camera, and, in fact, it looks like a 35mm
point and shoot, though a little bigger than the average one.
Patrick
Drew Saunders
"Patrick L" <lovinth...@tickle.com> wrote:
> Fuji GA645 Zi ... It will also imprint shooting data on frames,
> but I haven't figured out how to configure the camera to do this.
I ended up buying a manual from Fujifilm so that I could figure this
out, and it was worth it. The info for ordering a manual is:
http://www.fujifilm.com/JSP/fuji/epartners/ServiceSupportContactForm.jsp?
catid=531303&prodcat=233830
Drew
--
Drew W. Saunders
dru (at) stanford (dot) eee dee you