Dagor lens questions.......
William Franko
What is the differences between the following lenses?
Dagor..............
Gold Dagor.........
Golden Dagor............
Gold Band Dagor............
Gold Dot Dagor..............
American Dagor............
thanks...............
bill...................
Lance Bledsoe
William Franko <aa...@cleveland.Freenet.Edu> wrote:
>
> What is the differences between the following lenses?
>
> Dagor..............
>
> Gold Dagor.........
>
> Golden Dagor............
>
> Gold Band Dagor............
>
> Gold Dot Dagor..............
>
> American Dagor............
If I recall there is a writeup about this in the latest View Camera
magazine...
Lance
--
Lance Bledsoe, President
Avalon Enterprises, Inc. / Bledsoe Photographic, Inc.
9004 Jolly Hollow Drive, Austin, TX 78750 USA, Phone: 512-257-2900
Email: l...@Eden.com URL: http://www.Eden.com/~lwb
DColucci
Chris Perez
The Berlin based Co. spawned an American Co. called C.P. Goerz. The
original Goerz Co. was bought my Schnieder in the late '20's or so.
They remained the same company for only a short time. The owner of
Burke and James steamered to Germany in the very early '30s and bought
Goerz lock/stock/barrel! All manufacturing/patents/existing glass/
inventory was then shipped to the US.
It was around that time that B&James developed the first commercially
available coated lenses. These were their Dagors.
Now, as for which "gold" <fillintheblank> came from whom, refer to the
manufacturer. It will either be Goerz Berlin (even though US made after
1930 or thereabouts) or C.P. Goerz who was the originally liscenced
US operation.
Please note, the C.P. Goerz lenses are of spotty manufacture after about
1960. They were severely under funded, unlike the Berlin Goerz operation
funded from Burke and James vast resources. All B&J Dagor up to the
bitter end are of fine quality.
There is a story in the recent _View Camera_ related by Lynn Jones(?) about
how in the '70's he found a stock of glass originally figured in Germany
(before the US buyout). He coated them, mounted 'um, and sold 'um. They
are most likely equal to anything currently made (ya, I know about coverage).
- Chris
Richard Knoppow
>In <4fqtoh$1...@ixnews7.ix.netcom.com> dick...@ix.netcom.com (Richard
>Knoppow) writes:
>>
>>aa...@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (William Franko) wrote:
>>
>>
>>> What is the differences between the following lenses?
>>
>>> Dagor..............
>>
>>> Gold Dagor.........
>>
>>> Golden Dagor............
>>
>>> Gold Band Dagor............
>>
>>> Gold Dot Dagor..............
>>
>>> American Dagor............
>>
>>
>>
>>> thanks...............
>>
>>> bill...................
>>
>>Hi Bill, Dagors were originally made by the C.P.Goerz company in
>>Germany. In 1926 Goerz was absorbed into the Zeiss-Ikon combine but
>>the U.S. division continued as an independent company as The
>>C.P.Goerz American Optical Co. Their advertising always made a great
>>point of their being an American company. Zeiss continued to make
>>Dagors and they were in the Zeiss catalogue at least up to the middle
>>thirties. These are known as "Berlin Dagors" and carry the
>>Zeiss-Goerz name. A lens marked Goerz Berlin will be pre-merger.
>>U.S. made lenses are marked "C.P. Goerz Am.Op.Co." Older ones will
>>usually also be marked Series III. Goerz American began marketing
>>"Golden Dagors" in the early fifties. As far as I can find out the
>>only difference is that these lenses were coated. This is probably
>>the same as the "Gold Band" dagor since the rim of the front element
>>is gold colored. "Gold Dot" Dagors were made after the acquisition of
>>Goerz by Schneider. As far as I have been able to find out there was
>>never any change in the glass types used in these lenses so the
>>performance should be the same except for the effect of coating on
>>coated lenses. Finding history on Goerz products seems to be
>>difficult, perhaps some follower of this group is really knowledgeable
>>and will take the time to post something here.
>>---
>>Richard Knoppow
>>Los Angeles, Ca.
>>dick...@ix.netcom.com
>>
>-----------Comment: Gold Dot Dagors existed way before the acquisition
>of Am Opt Co. by Schneider!
>Bob Gurfinkel.
Hi Bob, I don't doubt you are right. Do you know if there is any
substantial difference in this lens from earlier ones? I have been
told that there was never any change in the design or glass types etc.
over the life of the lens but I wonder if there was ever an attempt to
reduce the zonal spherical by using newer glass types???
---
Richard Knoppow
Los Angeles, Ca.
dick...@ix.netcom.com
DE Mitchell
Shutterbug to the effect that they could build dagor formula lenses. The ad
said something to the effect that the individual was a former Goerz employee.
Anyone on the list have any know of this person? Could shed light on these
questions but also might provide a coated lens in a modern shutter.
Dan
dmit...@puc.edu
John Sparks
>Re: Goerz Dagor -
>The Berlin based Co. spawned an American Co. called C.P. Goerz. The
>original Goerz Co. was bought my Schnieder in the late '20's or so.
I think you mean Zeiss. Zeiss bought German based Goerz in the 20's.
Schneider bought American Optical Co. Goerz in the 70's. I was confused
by your article (and the article in View Camera), were there two different
US companies making Goerz lenses in the US at the same time? Anyone know?
John Sparks
Richard Knoppow
>John Sparks
I think there is confusion about time period. The original C.P. Gperz
company was German and had an American branch. In the late 1920's
Goerz was purchased by Ziess and became part of the Ziess-Ikon
combine. For some reason the American branch remained independent.
This company was bought out by Schnieder sometime around 1970. For a
time after the Ziess buyout Ziess continued to make some Goerz lenses
and the Dagor appears in Ziess catalouges and advertizing. I don't
know what kind, if any, agreement there was between Goerz American and
Ziess but Goerz American always stressed their being a U.S. company in
their advertizing ( I suspect this was a result of the very strong
anti-German feelings in this country durring and following WW-I) and
in the 1950's often had a footnote in their magazine ads warning
readers to beware of "new" Berlin Dagors "they haven't been made for
30 years".
I am trying to learn more about the history of the American branch
and how it came to be independent of Ziess and will post here when I
find out anything.
Chris Perez
>Chris Perez (ch...@swmerc.rain.com) wrote:
>>Re: Goerz Dagor -
>>The Berlin based Co. spawned an American Co. called C.P. Goerz. The
>>original Goerz Co. was bought my Schnieder in the late '20's or so.
>I think you mean Zeiss. Zeiss bought German based Goerz in the 20's.
>Schneider bought American Optical Co. Goerz in the 70's. I was confused
>by your article (and the article in View Camera), were there two different
>US companies making Goerz lenses in the US at the same time? Anyone know?
Right you are. I posted an appology to my original mistake. It was Zeiss.
Second, yes, there were two different Dagor manufacturers. Goerz in
Berlin (later by B&J in Chicago) and CP Goerz in various parts of the
east coast.
- Chris
Davidlindq
Perez (ch...@swmerc.rain.com):
>I was confused by your article (and the article in View Camera).
I'm glad I'm not the only one who found the article in View Camera
confusing.
First of all while Burke and James may have made (perhaps assembled would
be
a better word) Dagors, I have both 1965 and 1969 B&J catalogues which
show they sold the products of the Goerz Optical/ C.P. Goerz American
Optical Company. There's been quite a bit posted recently about Dagors.
Maybe some of what I add here will be helpful.
The best history I have is Bob Schwalberg's lengthy article "Dagor, the
lens
that's 78 years young", published in the January 1972 issue of Popular
Photography. Incidentally Dr. Kingslake cites this work in his 1989 book A
History of the Photographic Lens. I'm quoting and paraphrasing some of it
which applies to more recent history and to some of the previous stuff
posted.
Schwalberg states that the C.P. Goerz Am. Optical Company became "...the
Goerz Optical Company, Inc., a division of the Kollmorgen Corporation
whose
headquarters are in Pittsburg, Pa." Unfortunately he does not give a date
for
this. Further he says "The Inwood, Long Island, factory has recently moved
to... Mineola N.Y..." (Which is also on Long Island)..."and lenses are now
being manufactured in this new plant as well as in Northampton, Mass.,
where
all lens grinding and polishing is now concentrated." Further he says "
'Gold
Dot' Dagors, which replaced the 'Golden Dagors' with polished brass front
rings in 1963, are mounted and assembled in Mineola." (But see below). He
mentions also Goerz's planned introduction of a new series of Dagors in
which
the third element in each group would be separated by an air space. Sounds
like a Plasmat/Symmar. As far as I know this never made it to market.
With respect to whether changes have been made to the Dagor over the
years,
quoting again from Schwalberg, "...von Hoegh's first design has been
modified
and improved many times, principally by using new glasses as they arrived
upon the optical scene."
Also with respect to changes in the Dagor, is this quote from a letter to
the
editor in March 1986 Shutterbug Ads, written by Edward Bolsetzian of
Chichester, N.Y. "The best Dagors were made after 1963 when Goerz
perfected a
device to centralize the elements within two seconds of arc. This is
equivalent to five feet in 100 miles. How do I know this? I built the
device
and also filled in as a lens fitter from time to time."
By September 1973 Goerz was owned by Schneider Corporation of America.
This is based on a letter I got from them dated Sept. 18, 1973 regarding
the
availablity (rather the unavailability) at that time of the 8 1/4 inch
Gold Dot Dagor. I never did get one.
Finally a caveat. Histories are never final. People who work with the
history
of technologies are especially faced with the problems of a lack of
written
records (and perhaps worse the fact that written records don't always
reflect
what really happened), a shortage of independent sources and having to
rely
on anecdotal information. As I like to quote, you can't rely on the
principle "It must be true or they wouldn't be allowed to print (or post!)
it." For example, as well written and authoritative as Schwalberg's
history is, there is a discrepancy in his 1963 date for the introduction
of the name
"Gold Dot". I have a price list from Goerz dated 10/10/67 which uses
"Golden
Dagor" (I also have a price list dated 8/1/70 which says "Gold Dot").
Further
confounding things is a brochure I have, undated but received by me about
1969, which uses the term "Golden Dagor" but the illustration (which is in
black and white) looks like a Gold Dot Dagor!
I bought a 6 inch Gold Dot Dagor new in 1969, that little sucker is
sharrrrrrrrrrrrrp!
What I want to know is did anyone out there ever buy a Goerz Imperial
Magnar II 6" enlarging lens at $2600 in 1970?
Hope this has been useful.
David Lindquist
David...@aol.com
Leonard Caplan
>
>Now, as for which "gold" <fillintheblank> came from whom, refer to the
>manufacturer. It will either be Goerz Berlin (even though US made after
>1930 or thereabouts) or C.P. Goerz who was the originally liscenced
>US operation.
I have never seen nor heard of a Berlin Dagor with a gold dot or gold
ring designation....and doubt they exist.
>
>Please note, the C.P. Goerz lenses are of spotty manufacture after about
>1960. They were severely under funded, unlike the Berlin Goerz operation
Again, I question where you get your information. Right up until the
time that Schneider, who bought the line, since they didn't have a
process lens and wanted the Artars, quit making them, the quality of the
Dagors was superb. The last batches that were made for Schneider by
Kern, were every bit as spectacular as any of the post "Berlin" ones.
The only marginal Dagors that were made were the Berlin ones, which were
manufactured before Goerz started using Modern type glass, They were
made with "dirty" glass, and were cemented with Canadien Balsam, which
makes them prone to element seperation.
Len
--
****************************************
From by Len Caplan of London Imports Ltd.
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and distributer of James Lager's books
"Leica...An Illustrated History" Vol I & II
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****************************************
John Bercovitz
8 1/4" f/6.8 I have. Is there a listing of when they (in this case
a C.P. Goerz - Am. Opt. Co.) were made by serial number? Mine's
approximately S/N 175,000.
Thanks,
John B
William Franko
I have a Sweet,Wallach catalog #39 (turn of the century ?
that shows Dagors with serial numbers 225xxx.
I have the following that I am trying to date:
8 1/4" f/6.8 Goerz DA Series 3 No 3 No 130xxx
300mm f/6.8 C.P. Goerz Berlin No 325xxx
9 1/2" f/6.8 Goerz Dagor No 753xxx
12" f/6.8 Goerz Dagor No 753xxx
14" f/7.7 Goerz Dagor No 754xxx
I have a flyer from the mid 50's from Goerz Opt Co
in Long Island, NY that lists serial numbers
783xxx , 784xxx , and 785xxx for Golden Dagor,
Golden Wide Angle and Red Dot Artar.............
Anyone care to fill in dates and Serial numbers
for American Gold Dots, Schneider Gold Dots,and
Kern Gold Dots???.................
bill...................