EU Mandarins: "All small electronics must use USB C to charge!"

[RichA]

https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-58665809

[David Taylor]

On 23/09/2021 15:56, RichA wrote:
> https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-58665809
>

Makes a lot of sense. Even Apple are USB-C now.

--
Cheers,
David
Web: http://www.satsignal.eu

[nospam]

In article <sii5t9$6j6$1...@dont-email.me>, David Taylor

<david-...@blueyonder.co.uk.invalid> wrote:

> > https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-58665809
> >
>
> Makes a lot of sense.

it never makes sense for a government to mandate how private companies
should design their products, other than for safety, which is not what
this is about.

it's also a proposal. it may not happen.

it wasn't that long ago they wanted to mandate micro-usb, which would
have been a disaster.

in a few years, another connector will replace usb-c. then what?

> Even Apple are USB-C now.

what do you mean 'even apple' ?? apple was *first* to use usb-c, nearly
seven years ago. the rest of the industry has been very slow to adopt
it.

however, apple does not use usb-c on all of their products because it
does not make sense to do so, including all iphones, ipad, ipod touch
airpods standard, pro & max, magic mouse, trackpad & keyboard, apple tv
remote, apple watch dock, and probably a few more i've forgotten.

changing connectors would be highly disruptive and incur substantial
amounts of waste.

[newshound]

On 23/09/2021 16:39, nospam wrote:
> In article <sii5t9$6j6$1...@dont-email.me>, David Taylor
> <david-...@blueyonder.co.uk.invalid> wrote:
>
>>> https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-58665809
>>>
>>
>> Makes a lot of sense.
>
> it never makes sense for a government to mandate how private companies
> should design their products, other than for safety, which is not what
> this is about.

While I generally agree with that principle, it comes about from a wish
to reduce waste (a good idea) with the unintended consequence of making
life much easier for consumers as well as allowing manufacturers to sell
stuff cheaper with no charger. Electronics companies *could* have got
together and agreed standards to make chargers more interchangeable, but
they didn't.

>
> it's also a proposal. it may not happen.
>
> it wasn't that long ago they wanted to mandate micro-usb, which would
> have been a disaster.

While it isn't the greatest connector, disaster is a bit strong. I guess
50% of my stuff is micro usb, with about equal quantities of mini and -C
at the moment.

>
> in a few years, another connector will replace usb-c. then what?

Probably, but it's a pretty good connector (and conveniently reversible).

[nospam]

In article <2dudnasyCPUlM9H8...@brightview.co.uk>,

newshound <news...@stevejqr.plus.com> wrote:

> >> Makes a lot of sense.
> >
> > it never makes sense for a government to mandate how private companies
> > should design their products, other than for safety, which is not what
> > this is about.
>
> While I generally agree with that principle, it comes about from a wish
> to reduce waste (a good idea)

reducing waste is a good idea. the problem is that a mandate will do
the opposite because people will need to replace their existing cables
for absolutely no reason, other than a new law was passed.

> with the unintended consequence of making
> life much easier for consumers as well as allowing manufacturers to sell
> stuff cheaper with no charger.

the chargers have always been fully interchangeable.

> Electronics companies *could* have got
> together and agreed standards to make chargers more interchangeable, but
> they didn't.

the chargers aren't the problem. it's the ports on the *devices* that
are at issue.

also, usb-c was approved *after* apple switched to lightning. it wasn't
an option at that time.

> > it's also a proposal. it may not happen.
> >
> > it wasn't that long ago they wanted to mandate micro-usb, which would
> > have been a disaster.
>
> While it isn't the greatest connector, disaster is a bit strong. I guess
> 50% of my stuff is micro usb, with about equal quantities of mini and -C
> at the moment.

if micro-usb was legally mandated, then everything would still be
micro-usb and usb-c would be very rare. that would be bad.

it's never a good idea for a government to mandate how a product should
be designed, other than for safety regulations, which is not what this
is about.

> > in a few years, another connector will replace usb-c. then what?
>
> Probably, but it's a pretty good connector (and conveniently reversible).

you can thank apple for that, who was on the usb-c design committee.

usb-c still has issues. one of the biggest problems is excessive torque
can damage the device rather than the cable, usually by breaking the
tab inside the port or the connector itself, resulting in an expensive
repair.

apple's lightning cables are designed to shear and avoid damage to the
device. pull out the broken tab from inside the port, replace the cable
for $5-10 and all is well.

[Carlos E. R.]

On 23/09/2021 17.19, David Taylor wrote:
> On 23/09/2021 15:56, RichA wrote:
>> https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-58665809
>>
>
> Makes a lot of sense.  Even Apple are USB-C now.
>

It is wonderful. About time.

--
Cheers,
Carlos E.R.

[RichA]

On Thursday, 23 September 2021 at 11:19:09 UTC-4, David Taylor wrote:
> On 23/09/2021 15:56, RichA wrote:
> > https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-58665809
> >
>
> Makes a lot of sense. Even Apple are USB-C now.

From the mind of the EU Politburo

[nospam]

In article <svbv1ix...@minas-tirith.valinor>, Carlos E. R.

<robin_...@es.invalid> wrote:

> > Makes a lot of sense.  Even Apple are USB-C now.
> >
>
> It is wonderful. About time.

apple was *first* to support usb-c.

just not on phones, for very good reasons.

[Carlos E. R.]

I'm not saying anything about Apple, in any direction.

--
Cheers,
Carlos E.R.

[Mountain Magpie]

On Thu, 23 Sep 2021 07:56:14 -0700 (PDT), RichA posted:-

> https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-58665809

Keeps these useless public servants partially employed?

[geoff]

Being .... ?

geoff

[Whisky-dave]

On Thursday, 23 September 2021 at 16:19:09 UTC+1, David Taylor wrote:
> On 23/09/2021 15:56, RichA wrote:
> > https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-58665809
> >
>
> Makes a lot of sense. Even Apple are USB-C now.

Make a bit of sense but as it;s government and the EU
it won't make any long term sense.

The day will come when USB-C can;t suplpy enough power to charge a phone in 5mins
which may well happen as batter technology changes over time.

I remmeber when speed standards for communication were up to 9600 baud.
Imaging having to stick to that over a RS232 25 way D-connector.

Let polititions stick to what they are best at which is inreasing their own pay
while just working a few hours/days per week for it.

[Magani]

On Friday, 24 September 2021 at 10:22:59 pm UTC+10, Whisky-dave wrote:
> On Thursday, 23 September 2021 at 16:19:09 UTC+1, David Taylor wrote:
> > On 23/09/2021 15:56, RichA wrote:
> > > https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-58665809
> > >
> >
> > Makes a lot of sense. Even Apple are USB-C now.
> Make a bit of sense but as it;s government and the EU
> it won't make any long term sense.
>
> The day will come when USB-C can;t suplpy enough power to charge a phone in 5mins
> which may well happen as batter technology changes over time.
>
> I remmeber when speed standards for communication were up to 9600 baud.
> Imaging having to stick to that over a RS232 25 way D-connector.

Somewhere in the bottom of a pile of IT 'spares' (= junk) in the shed, I seem to remember seeing my first Hayes 1200baud modem with flashing lights. I thought it magic at the time.
I guess we should watch out that this doesn't turn into a "...shoebox in middle t'road."
:-))
Cheers,
Magani

[geoff]

On 25/09/2021 12:22 am, Whisky-dave wrote:
> On Thursday, 23 September 2021 at 16:19:09 UTC+1, David Taylor wrote:
>> On 23/09/2021 15:56, RichA wrote:
>>> https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-58665809
>>>
>>
>> Makes a lot of sense. Even Apple are USB-C now.
>
> Make a bit of sense but as it;s government and the EU
> it won't make any long term sense.
>
> The day will come when USB-C can;t suplpy enough power to charge a phone in 5mins
> which may well happen as batter technology changes over time.
>
> I remmeber when speed standards for communication were up to 9600 baud.
> Imaging having to stick to that over a RS232 25 way D-connector.

That was nothing to do with any government or regional pact decree.
That was an industry-derived standard.

geoff

[Keith]

Call me a dinosaur but my first link to a computer was via a Teltype ASR33
at 10cps (GPO 300 baud modem) writing programs in Basic for designing processing
units in oil refineries. A TTY ASR33 is used as the consol for the valve
computer at Bletchly Park. 4K of 9bit 3 character (19 bit) words max for
a program - bloatware not yet invented.

Hello Geoff,

[newshound]

On 25/09/2021 10:42, Keith wrote:
> Call me a dinosaur but my first link to a computer was via a Teltype
> ASR33 at 10cps (GPO 300 baud modem) writing programs in Basic for
> designing processing units in oil refineries. A TTY ASR33 is used as the
> consol for the valve computer at Bletchly Park. 4K of 9bit 3 character
> (19 bit) words max for a program - bloatware not yet invented.
>

+1, only in my case connecting to a PDP-8e. With the toggle switches for
loading the RIM loader. Later it was upgraded with twin 8 inch floppies.
Then a Silent 700, and eventually a VDU!

[geoff]

On 25/09/2021 9:42 pm, Keith wrote:
> Call me a dinosaur but my first link to a computer was via a Teltype
> ASR33 at 10cps (GPO 300 baud modem) writing programs in Basic for
> designing processing units in oil refineries. A TTY ASR33 is used as the
> consol for the valve computer at Bletchly Park. 4K of 9bit 3 character
> (19 bit) words max for a program - bloatware not yet invented.
>

OK beat 50-baud Creed and Olivetti electro-mechanical teleprinters
(telex-machines)with old-style typewriter type mechanisms.

The along came the TE400 with a height-of-technology 9-pin dot-matrix
print head.

geoff

[Mountain Magpie]

On Sun, 26 Sep 2021 14:11:38 +1300, geoff posted:-

I remember when Olivetti came out with an adding machine, with a pull
handle, but a revolutionary keyboard, only the numbers 1 to 0 and not
in columns. People would look at it in amazement. I still see banks
using Olivetti equipment as well - Westpac uses their small printers in
the teller's cage to print a voucher.

[nospam]

In article <eL2dnYcYFZ5s4tP8...@giganews.com>, geoff

<ge...@nospamgeoffwood.org> wrote:

> > I remmeber when speed standards for communication were up to 9600 baud.
> > Imaging having to stick to that over a RS232 25 way D-connector.
>
> That was nothing to do with any government or regional pact decree.
> That was an industry-derived standard.

not a very good one, with substantial variances in voltage, pinouts and
handshaking.

[nospam]

In article <u5OdnT2ejeAyx9D8...@giganews.com>, geoff

<ge...@nospamgeoffwood.org> wrote:

> >>> Makes a lot of sense.  Even Apple are USB-C now.
> >>>
> >>
> >> It is wonderful. About time.
> >
> > apple was *first* to support usb-c.
> >
> > just not on phones, for very good reasons.
> >
>
>
> Being .... ?

changing connectors is disruptive. it will instantly annoy more than a
billion people and cause *substantial* waste, for no benefit.

lightning was created because usb-c did not exist at the time and
micro-usb was not capable of providing the specs apple needed. plus,
the micro-usb connector is horrible, one of the worst connectors ever
designed.

lightning is thinner and shorter than usb-c, which is extremely
important on a highly space-constrained device.

one of the biggest advantages is that the lightning plug designed to
shear if the cable is subjected to excessive torque, thereby avoiding
damage the device, usb-c is not.

excessive torque with usb-c can (and often does) cause damage to the
connector in the device, which almost always means replacing the entire
device and that can be hundreds or thousands of dollars. people don't
like when that happens. it's not anything that would be covered under
warranty either, since it's user damage and not a manufacturing defect.

with lightning, the tab on the cable will snap (it's a requirement for
any cable), leaving a broken piece in the phone. remove it, replace the
cable for $5-10 and problem solved. the user can probably remove the
tab on their own with a toothpick.

another issue is the huge third party ecosystem of lightning devices
that will suddenly become useless. worse, it will cause significant
financial hardship for companies who will be stuck with products that
can't be used by those buying new iphones.

[geoff]

Kept the world going for decades, with relatively few complications - in
the professional arena at least.

geoff

[Carlos E. R.]

On 26/09/2021 16.46, nospam wrote:
> In article <u5OdnT2ejeAyx9D8...@giganews.com>, geoff
> <ge...@nospamgeoffwood.org> wrote:
>
>>>>> Makes a lot of sense.  Even Apple are USB-C now.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> It is wonderful. About time.
>>>
>>> apple was *first* to support usb-c.
>>>
>>> just not on phones, for very good reasons.
>>>
>>
>>
>> Being .... ?
>
> changing connectors is disruptive. it will instantly annoy more than a
> billion people and cause *substantial* waste, for no benefit.

But there will be no change on existing devices, only new devices are
affected, thus no issue.

Anyway, your problems with the EU rule are irrelevant, it will happen,
so better take it in good spirits - or not, maybe those in the USA will
not be affected :-P

--
Cheers,
Carlos E.R.

[Carlos E. R.]

Still going on :-)


--
Cheers,
Carlos E.R.

[nospam]

In article <qYmdnQ_Hi_NIcs38...@giganews.com>, geoff

<ge...@nospamgeoffwood.org> wrote:

> >>> I remmeber when speed standards for communication were up to 9600 baud.
> >>> Imaging having to stick to that over a RS232 25 way D-connector.
> >>
> >> That was nothing to do with any government or regional pact decree.
> >> That was an industry-derived standard.
> >
> > not a very good one, with substantial variances in voltage, pinouts and
> > handshaking.
> >
>
> Kept the world going for decades, with relatively few complications - in
> the professional arena at least.

actually, there were numerous complications.

in addition to what's listed above above, add dce/dte, null-modem
cables, gender changers, bit rate and data/start/parity bits.

since the signaling voltage varied from +/-3 to 15v, some devices would
not work with other devices.

there were even breakout boxes to debug it:

<https://through-the-interface.typepad.com/.a/6a00d83452464869e201b7c952
823d970b-pi>

even the connector wasn't standardized. companies soon realized only a
few pins were needed, so they used db-9 instead of db-25, resulting in
adapters, or they used a custom non-standard adapter.

<https://www.l-com.com/Content/Images/Product/Large/DGL259FF-IBM_500x500
_View1.jpg>

it was anything *but* standard.

[nospam]

In article <7vb72ix...@minas-tirith.valinor>, Carlos E. R.

<robin_...@es.invalid> wrote:

> >
> > changing connectors is disruptive. it will instantly annoy more than a
> > billion people and cause *substantial* waste, for no benefit.
>
> But there will be no change on existing devices, only new devices are
> affected, thus no issue.

there is very much an issue because people will need to replace their
existing cables, docks, accessories when they upgrade to a new phone

most people hand down their old phones to their kids or other family
members, so they still need to keep the old stuff around.

> Anyway, your problems with the EU rule are irrelevant, it will happen,
> so better take it in good spirits - or not, maybe those in the USA will
> not be affected :-P

it's currently a proposal and will likely change before it's finalized.

keep in mind they want to mandate using a connector that is nearly ten
years old.

[nospam]

In article <s2c72ix...@minas-tirith.valinor>, Carlos E. R.

<robin_...@es.invalid> wrote:

> >>>> I remmeber when speed standards for communication were up to 9600 baud.
> >>>> Imaging having to stick to that over a RS232 25 way D-connector.
> >>>
> >>> That was nothing to do with any government or regional pact decree.
> >>> That was an industry-derived standard.
> >>
> >> not a very good one, with substantial variances in voltage, pinouts and
> >> handshaking.
> >>
> >
> > Kept the world going for decades, with relatively few complications - in
> > the professional arena at least.
>
> Still going on :-)

no it isn't, other than for legacy devices, which area extremely rare.

[Carlos E. R.]

nospam is wrong of course™.

Cisco routers, for example. Or IoT gadgets. Or the Raspberry Pi.

Google "where is rs232 used today?" and you will see examples.

--
Cheers,
Carlos E.R.

[Carlos E. R.]

It was a standard, just that some failed to implement the standard
correctly.

--
Cheers,
Carlos E.R.

[Carlos E. R.]

On 27/09/2021 02.33, nospam wrote:

> In article <7vb72ix...@minas-tirith.valinor>, Carlos E. R.
> <robin_...@es.invalid> wrote:
>
>>>
>>> changing connectors is disruptive. it will instantly annoy more than a
>>> billion people and cause *substantial* waste, for no benefit.
>>
>> But there will be no change on existing devices, only new devices are
>> affected, thus no issue.
>
> there is very much an issue because people will need to replace their
> existing cables, docks, accessories when they upgrade to a new phone

Tsk, tsk, same cables and accessories for me.

>
> most people hand down their old phones to their kids or other family
> members, so they still need to keep the old stuff around.

Not an issue for us.

>
>> Anyway, your problems with the EU rule are irrelevant, it will happen,
>> so better take it in good spirits - or not, maybe those in the USA will
>> not be affected :-P
>
> it's currently a proposal and will likely change before it's finalized.

Not substantially.

>
> keep in mind they want to mandate using a connector that is nearly ten
> years old.

[nospam]

In article <2gm72ix...@minas-tirith.valinor>, Carlos E. R.

<robin_...@es.invalid> wrote:

> >>>>>> I remmeber when speed standards for communication were up to 9600 baud.
> >>>>>> Imaging having to stick to that over a RS232 25 way D-connector.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> That was nothing to do with any government or regional pact decree.
> >>>>> That was an industry-derived standard.
> >>>>
> >>>> not a very good one, with substantial variances in voltage, pinouts and
> >>>> handshaking.
> >>>>
> >>>
> >>> Kept the world going for decades, with relatively few complications - in
> >>> the professional arena at least.
> >>
> >> Still going on :-)
> >
> > no it isn't, other than for legacy devices, which area extremely rare.


>

> Cisco routers,

some networking equipment does have a console serial port, but that's
one of the rare exceptions. it's also legacy and not normally needed.
the web ui or ssh is more than sufficient in nearly every case.

> for example. Or IoT gadgets.

such as which ones?

i've yet to see an iot device that has an rs232 port. they normally use
wifi, bluetooth and/or usb, depending on the device.

> Or the Raspberry Pi.

the raspberry pi does *not* have rs-232. what are you smoking?

depending on which pi, there is usb, ethernet, wifi and/or bluetooth.

the pi zero has *only* usb, although it does support some usb-ethernet
adapters without drivers.

it's possible to use one or more pins on the gpi expansion port for
serial communication, but that is not an rs-232 port.

[nospam]

In article <lim72ix...@minas-tirith.valinor>, Carlos E. R.

<robin_...@es.invalid> wrote:

> > it was anything *but* standard.
> >
>
> It was a standard, just that some failed to implement the standard
> correctly.

not a very good standard since there was a substantial amount of
variance in how it could be implemented.

[nospam]

In article <imm72ix...@minas-tirith.valinor>, Carlos E. R.

<robin_...@es.invalid> wrote:

> >>> changing connectors is disruptive. it will instantly annoy more than a
> >>> billion people and cause *substantial* waste, for no benefit.
> >>
> >> But there will be no change on existing devices, only new devices are
> >> affected, thus no issue.
> >
> > there is very much an issue because people will need to replace their
> > existing cables, docks, accessories when they upgrade to a new phone
>
> Tsk, tsk, same cables and accessories for me.

that's wonderful, but there are more than a billion people who have
lightning devices (not just iphones) and will be adversely affected,
generating a significant amount of waste when forced to replace their
cables and accessories after buying a new device.

> > most people hand down their old phones to their kids or other family
> > members, so they still need to keep the old stuff around.
>
> Not an issue for us.

see above.

> >> Anyway, your problems with the EU rule are irrelevant, it will happen,
> >> so better take it in good spirits - or not, maybe those in the USA will
> >> not be affected :-P
> >
> > it's currently a proposal and will likely change before it's finalized.
>
> Not substantially.

that remains to be seen.

the micro-usb mandate ended up allowing an adapter.

> > keep in mind they want to mandate using a connector that is nearly ten
> > years old.
>
>
> :-P

this is one of the most significant problems with it.

[geoff]

On 27/09/2021 1:33 pm, nospam wrote:
> In article <qYmdnQ_Hi_NIcs38...@giganews.com>, geoff
> <ge...@nospamgeoffwood.org> wrote:
>
>>>>> I remmeber when speed standards for communication were up to 9600 baud.
>>>>> Imaging having to stick to that over a RS232 25 way D-connector.
>>>>
>>>> That was nothing to do with any government or regional pact decree.
>>>> That was an industry-derived standard.
>>>
>>> not a very good one, with substantial variances in voltage, pinouts and
>>> handshaking.
>>>
>>
>> Kept the world going for decades, with relatively few complications - in
>> the professional arena at least.
>
> actually, there were numerous complications.
>
> in addition to what's listed above above, add dce/dte, null-modem
> cables, gender changers,

No 'complications there.

bit rate and data/start/parity bits.

Nothing to do with the *connector*.

>
> since the signaling voltage varied from +/-3 to 15v, some devices would
> not work with other devices.

Any compliant device should work with voltages within that range. Don't
blame the standard, or the connector (!), for non-compliant devices.

>
> there were even breakout boxes to debug it:

I have one on by desk here right now. A IDS Model 60. Used more for
making sure the signals were actually present, but also able to split
and configure alternative scenarios.

> <https://through-the-interface.typepad.com/.a/6a00d83452464869e201b7c952
> 823d970b-pi>
>
> even the connector wasn't standardized. companies soon realized only a
> few pins were needed, so they used db-9 instead of db-25, resulting in
> adapters, or they used a custom non-standard adapter.

Two different connectors (DB-25 and DB-9) for different levels and types
of use.

And various adaptors likewise. For specific purposes, usually not
industry-standard professional data-communications devices.

> <https://www.l-com.com/Content/Images/Product/Large/DGL259FF-IBM_500x500
> _View1.jpg>
>
> it was anything *but* standard.

Very standard. But not one unique connector for all uses, which would be
stupid.

I'd call it more 'versatile'. Only the pins required for a device needed
be present or used. Not counting non-RS-232/EIA uses.

You also seem to have trouble differentiating between the connector and
it's uses.

geoff

[geoff]

It was pretty much all there was at the time. So got used for all sorts
of things.

geoff

[geoff]

On 27/09/2021 3:56 pm, nospam wrote:

How many different standard DB-25 and DB-9 plugs/sockets can you describe ?

geoff

[geoff]

On 27/09/2021 3:56 pm, nospam wrote:

20 seconds on google will tell you otherwise - even 4-port ones. There
are not many things that haven't been added to RP, or Arduino.

geoff

[Carlos E. R.]

On 27/09/2021 04.56, nospam wrote:
> In article <2gm72ix...@minas-tirith.valinor>, Carlos E. R.
> <robin_...@es.invalid> wrote:
>
>>>>>>>> I remmeber when speed standards for communication were up to 9600 baud.
>>>>>>>> Imaging having to stick to that over a RS232 25 way D-connector.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> That was nothing to do with any government or regional pact decree.
>>>>>>> That was an industry-derived standard.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> not a very good one, with substantial variances in voltage, pinouts and
>>>>>> handshaking.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Kept the world going for decades, with relatively few complications - in
>>>>> the professional arena at least.
>>>>
>>>> Still going on :-)
>>>
>>> no it isn't, other than for legacy devices, which area extremely rare.
>
>
>>
>> Cisco routers,
>
> some networking equipment does have a console serial port, but that's
> one of the rare exceptions. it's also legacy and not normally needed.
> the web ui or ssh is more than sufficient in nearly every case.

Depends on what you have to do on the machine. In certain circumstances,
it is the only available method.

>
>> for example. Or IoT gadgets.
>
> such as which ones?

Ask google, it said so.

>
> i've yet to see an iot device that has an rs232 port. they normally use
> wifi, bluetooth and/or usb, depending on the device.
>
>> Or the Raspberry Pi.
>
> the raspberry pi does *not* have rs-232. what are you smoking?

Complain to google :-p


--
Cheers,
Carlos E.R.

[Whisky-dave]

and the 'industry' was allowed to change it's standard.

Leave this sort of thing to a government and it'll be politically controlled
and may take a decade before things change, a bit like trade deals.
That was my point.

>
> geoff

[Whisky-dave]

Really there was 9, 15, 25 and 37 way and a 50 way which I never got to use.
Then was it crossed or straight was DCD used , then there was busy ackw
and x-on x-off and many other pins that I've luckily mostly forgot about.
all just for 8 bit communication, of course have a standard 25 pins when you only really needed pins 2,3, & gnd
did seem a bit wasteful expense wise.
I just don't think govenments should have much say in these sort of areas.

[nospam]

In article <AI-dnXIl7-2Jrsz8...@giganews.com>, geoff

<ge...@nospamgeoffwood.org> wrote:

> >>> not a very good one, with substantial variances in voltage, pinouts and
> >>> handshaking.
> >>
> >> Kept the world going for decades, with relatively few complications - in
> >> the professional arena at least.
> >
> > actually, there were numerous complications.
> >
> > in addition to what's listed above above, add dce/dte, null-modem
> > cables, gender changers,
>
> No 'complications there.

that's definitely complications.

the mere existence of a null-modem cable is a design failure.

> bit rate and data/start/parity bits.
>
> Nothing to do with the *connector*.

technically true, however, that was also a significant issue in getting
devices to communicate.

keep in mind that the european commission is *also* mandating usb-pd in
addition to the usb-c connector, including for devices that don't yet
exist and even if usb-pd is not appropriate.

> > since the signaling voltage varied from +/-3 to 15v, some devices would
> > not work with other devices.
>
> Any compliant device should work with voltages within that range. Don't
> blame the standard, or the connector (!), for non-compliant devices.

they were compliant.

the problem is that there was such a wide variance that there was no
guarantee two devices could communicate.

> > there were even breakout boxes to debug it:
>
> I have one on by desk here right now. A IDS Model 60. Used more for
> making sure the signals were actually present, but also able to split
> and configure alternative scenarios.
>
> > <https://through-the-interface.typepad.com/.a/6a00d83452464869e201b7c952
> > 823d970b-pi>
> >
> > even the connector wasn't standardized. companies soon realized only a
> > few pins were needed, so they used db-9 instead of db-25, resulting in
> > adapters, or they used a custom non-standard adapter.
>
> Two different connectors (DB-25 and DB-9) for different levels and types
> of use.

plus a plethora of other connectors, with the necessary adapter cables:

<https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/6117IJUMRwL._AC_SL1500_.jpg>
<https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/41hy0k+NJlL._AC_.jpg>
<https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/41eGJ9W7siL._AC_.jpg>
<https://static.garmincdn.com/en/products/010-10141-00/g/cf-lg.jpg>

another problem is that db-25 was used for *other* purposes, such as a
parallel port or scsi port. db-9 was also sometimes used for non-serial
purposes.

and then there were the weird variants, such as db-13w3:
<https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/f/f0/13W3_Stecker.
jpg/800px-13W3_Stecker.jpg>

> And various adaptors likewise. For specific purposes, usually not
> industry-standard professional data-communications devices.
>
>
> > <https://www.l-com.com/Content/Images/Product/Large/DGL259FF-IBM_500x500
> > _View1.jpg>
> >
> > it was anything *but* standard.
>
> Very standard. But not one unique connector for all uses, which would be
> stupid.

the proposed usb-c mandate wants to require one unique connector
(usb-c) for all uses on many consumer devices, including cameras and
headphones.

as you say, that's stupid.

> I'd call it more 'versatile'. Only the pins required for a device needed
> be present or used. Not counting non-RS-232/EIA uses.

it's poorly defined. if everything is optional, it's not a standard.

> You also seem to have trouble differentiating between the connector and
> it's uses.

nope.

[nospam]

In article <QZydnZh2io3jo8z8...@giganews.com>, geoff

<ge...@nospamgeoffwood.org> wrote:

> It was pretty much all there was at the time.

true, and primitive.

> So got used for all sorts
> of things.

which ended up becoming a problem.

[nospam]

In article <QZydnZt2io1bo8z8...@giganews.com>, geoff

<ge...@nospamgeoffwood.org> wrote:

> >>> it was anything *but* standard.
> >>>
> >>
> >> It was a standard, just that some failed to implement the standard
> >> correctly.
> >
> > not a very good standard since there was a substantial amount of
> > variance in how it could be implemented.
> >
>
> How many different standard DB-25 and DB-9 plugs/sockets can you describe ?

there were more than just those two, plus how it was wired varied, plus
other issues.

[nospam]

In article <bvmdndVVgJ9j3cz8...@giganews.com>, geoff

<ge...@nospamgeoffwood.org> wrote:

> >> Or the Raspberry Pi.
> >
> > the raspberry pi does *not* have rs-232. what are you smoking?
> >
> > depending on which pi, there is usb, ethernet, wifi and/or bluetooth.
> >
> > the pi zero has *only* usb, although it does support some usb-ethernet
> > adapters without drivers.
> >
> > it's possible to use one or more pins on the gpi expansion port for
> > serial communication, but that is not an rs-232 port.
> >
>
>
> 20 seconds on google will tell you otherwise - even 4-port ones.

you don't understand the difference between having a port and adding a
port.

the claim was that raspberry pi has rs-232. it does not.

rs-232 can be *added* to a pi, as can many other things.

it is *not* a standard included port.

rs-232 can also be *added* to many other things, including laptops and
even smartphones. that doesn't mean they have rs-232 ports either.

> There
> are not many things that haven't been added to RP, or Arduino.

added to means it doesn't have it already.

[nospam]

In article <6pi82ix...@minas-tirith.valinor>, Carlos E. R.

<robin_...@es.invalid> wrote:

> >>>>
> >>>> Still going on :-)
> >>>
> >>> no it isn't, other than for legacy devices, which area extremely rare.
> >
> >
> >>
> >> Cisco routers,
> >
> > some networking equipment does have a console serial port, but that's
> > one of the rare exceptions. it's also legacy and not normally needed.
> > the web ui or ssh is more than sufficient in nearly every case.
>
> Depends on what you have to do on the machine. In certain circumstances,
> it is the only available method.

that scenario is *extremely* rare.

> >> for example. Or IoT gadgets.
> >
> > such as which ones?
>
> Ask google, it said so.

in other words, you made it up.

> > i've yet to see an iot device that has an rs232 port. they normally use
> > wifi, bluetooth and/or usb, depending on the device.
> >
> >> Or the Raspberry Pi.
> >
> > the raspberry pi does *not* have rs-232. what are you smoking?
>
> Complain to google :-p

in other words, you made that up too.

[nospam]

In article <0ecb3288-b1b7-4e48...@googlegroups.com>,

Whisky-dave <whisk...@gmail.com> wrote:

> Really there was 9, 15, 25 and 37 way and a 50 way which I never got to
> use.
> Then was it crossed or straight was DCD used , then there was busy ackw
> and x-on x-off and many other pins that I've luckily mostly forgot about.
> all just for 8 bit communication, of course have a standard 25 pins when you
> only really needed pins 2,3, & gnd

yep. it was a huge mess.

> did seem a bit wasteful expense wise.

also true.

> I just don't think govenments should have much say in these sort of areas.

they shouldn't.

they have enough trouble trying to solve actual problems. no need to
invent ones that aren't even an issue.

let the market decide. given that iphones are among the best selling
phones in the world, it's obviously not in any way a problem.

[Carlos E. R.]

GSM came about from Governments joining, deciding and pushing it (in the
EU), and it has been very successful, taking over the world mobile phone
systems. Previous to the USA changing to it, providers used incompatible
systems.

Changing and improving it has been no problem.

--
Cheers,
Carlos E.R.

[Bill W]

On Sep 27, 2021, Carlos E. R. wrote
(in article <4eq82ix...@minas-tirith.valinor>):

Do you know what year it is?

[Alan Browne]

On 2021-09-26 23:56, geoff wrote:

>
>
> 20 seconds on google will tell you otherwise - even 4-port ones.  There
> are not many things that haven't been added to RP, or Arduino.

You can add dozens of interfaces to RP or Arduino, but they don't come
"with" them. Further, the serial ports on the RP and Arduino are
different voltages (from each other) and neither is directly RS-232
compliant.


--
"...there are many humorous things in this world; among them the white
man's notion that he is less savage than the other savages."
-Samuel Clemens

[Alan Browne]

Learn the difference between what you can add to a pi and what it has
out of the box.

The pi does have serial data level ports at 0 to 3.3V. But that is not,
at all, RS-232. A RS-232 receiver might read from the Pi. But sending
RS-232 from a device directly to the UART input on the Pi could result
in damage to the Pi.

[nospam]

In article <79p4J.17544$IO1....@fx19.iad>, Alan Browne

<bitb...@blackhole.com> wrote:

> >
> > 20 seconds on google will tell you otherwise - even 4-port ones.  There
> > are not many things that haven't been added to RP, or Arduino.
>
> You can add dozens of interfaces to RP or Arduino, but they don't come
> "with" them. Further, the serial ports on the RP and Arduino are
> different voltages (from each other) and neither is directly RS-232
> compliant.

exactly.

[geoff]

On 28/09/2021 8:46 am, Alan Browne wrote:
> On 2021-09-27 06:25, Carlos E. R. wrote:
>> On 27/09/2021 04.56, nospam wrote:
>
>>> the raspberry pi does *not* have rs-232. what are you smoking?
>>
>> Complain to google :-p
>
> Learn the difference between what you can add to a pi and what it has
> out of the box.
>
> The pi does have serial data level ports at 0 to 3.3V.  But that is not,
> at all, RS-232.  A RS-232 receiver might read from the Pi.  But sending
> RS-232 from a device directly to the UART input on the Pi could result
> in damage to the Pi.
>
>

Nobody suggested 'native'.

geoff

[nospam]

In article <erSdncwoQM_ips_8...@giganews.com>, geoff

<ge...@nospamgeoffwood.org> wrote:

> >
> >>> the raspberry pi does *not* have rs-232. what are you smoking?
> >>
> >> Complain to google :-p
> >
> > Learn the difference between what you can add to a pi and what it has
> > out of the box.
> >
> > The pi does have serial data level ports at 0 to 3.3V.  But that is not,
> > at all, RS-232.  A RS-232 receiver might read from the Pi.  But sending
> > RS-232 from a device directly to the UART input on the Pi could result
> > in damage to the Pi.
> >
> >
>
> Nobody suggested 'native'.

carlos did.

[geoff]

On 28/09/2021 1:35 am, Whisky-dave wrote:

>>
>> geoff
> Really there was 9, 15, 25 and 37 way and a 50 way which I never got to use.

You found 9, 15, 25, 37, and 50 difficult to differentiate between ?

> Then was it crossed or straight was DCD used , then there was busy ackw
> and x-on x-off and many other pins that I've luckily mostly forgot about.
> all just for 8 bit communication, of course have a standard 25 pins when you only really needed pins 2,3, & gnd
> did seem a bit wasteful expense wise.

That's not the connector - that is one particular use and protocol
being put through it.

> I just don't think govenments should have much say in these sort of areas.

Agreed.

geoff

[Carlos E. R.]

Yes.

--
Cheers,
Carlos E.R.

[Carlos E. R.]

On 27/09/2021 16.18, nospam wrote:
> In article <6pi82ix...@minas-tirith.valinor>, Carlos E. R.
> <robin_...@es.invalid> wrote:
>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Still going on :-)
>>>>>
>>>>> no it isn't, other than for legacy devices, which area extremely rare.
>>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>> Cisco routers,
>>>
>>> some networking equipment does have a console serial port, but that's
>>> one of the rare exceptions. it's also legacy and not normally needed.
>>> the web ui or ssh is more than sufficient in nearly every case.
>>
>> Depends on what you have to do on the machine. In certain circumstances,
>> it is the only available method.
>
> that scenario is *extremely* rare.

Maybe, maybe not. In the Cisco training I had, the first initialization
of the router had be done always using the serial port.

If you read docs on flashing normal routers with alternative firmware,
several of them you have to access via a serial port, after opening it
up to expose the pins; in some cases the pins do not exist, you have to
actually solder the cables or solder a connector. Just 3 pins are
needed. You need that because those routers are not intended to be
flashed by their owners and do not expose a function on their normal
management interface.

I have a friend working with security hardware, and often his routine
includes connecting to the machines via serial ports. One of his grudges
is that modern laptops don't have it, but he needs it. Has to use an USB
to serial port converter.

My own desktop machine has both a serial port and a parallel port in the
board. Bought recently. It is used for kernel debugging.

>>>> for example. Or IoT gadgets.
>>>
>>> such as which ones?
>>
>> Ask google, it said so.
>
> in other words, you made it up.

No, I did not made it up. I knew of it, so I googled for confirmation.
Contrary to you, I don't know it all.


--
Cheers,
Carlos E.R.

[nospam]

In article <1q0a2ix...@minas-tirith.valinor>, Carlos E. R.

<robin_...@es.invalid> wrote:

> >>>>
> >>>> Cisco routers,
> >>>
> >>> some networking equipment does have a console serial port, but that's
> >>> one of the rare exceptions. it's also legacy and not normally needed.
> >>> the web ui or ssh is more than sufficient in nearly every case.
> >>
> >> Depends on what you have to do on the machine. In certain circumstances,
> >> it is the only available method.
> >
> > that scenario is *extremely* rare.
>
> Maybe, maybe not. In the Cisco training I had, the first initialization
> of the router had be done always using the serial port.

old ones did. i have an old cisco switch that requires using the serial
console to do a factory reset. otherwise, everything else can be done
via ssh or web. it's highly annoying.

that does not apply to recent equipment, from cisco and others.

> If you read docs on flashing normal routers with alternative firmware,
> several of them you have to access via a serial port, after opening it
> up to expose the pins; in some cases the pins do not exist, you have to
> actually solder the cables or solder a connector. Just 3 pins are
> needed. You need that because those routers are not intended to be
> flashed by their owners and do not expose a function on their normal
> management interface.

very few routers need a jtag to flash alternate firmware which is not
rs-232 anyway.

in nearly every case, alternate firmware can be installed via the web
ui or possibly tftp. i've been flashing routers for *years*.

> I have a friend working with security hardware, and often his routine
> includes connecting to the machines via serial ports. One of his grudges
> is that modern laptops don't have it, but he needs it. Has to use an USB
> to serial port converter.

not all security hardware does. whatever your friend has is another
rare exception.

if rs-232 was common, it would be included on recent laptops. it's not,
so it isn't.

> My own desktop machine has both a serial port and a parallel port in the
> board. Bought recently. It is used for kernel debugging.

there is no need for a serial port for kernel debugging.

> >>>> for example. Or IoT gadgets.
> >>>
> >>> such as which ones?
> >>
> >> Ask google, it said so.
> >
> > in other words, you made it up.
>
> No, I did not made it up. I knew of it, so I googled for confirmation.
> Contrary to you, I don't know it all.

either cite iot gadgets that have an rs232 port or admit you made it up.

iot devices, such as thermostats, lightbulbs, smart switches. water
leak sensors, air quality monitors, temp/humidity sensors, smoke
alarms, door locks, garage door openers, intrusion alarms, voice
assistants and many others all communicate *wirelessly*, via wifi,
bluetooth, zigbee and/or matter/thread.

they do *not* use rs-232.

[Whisky-dave]

On Monday, 27 September 2021 at 22:50:28 UTC+1, geoff wrote:
> On 28/09/2021 1:35 am, Whisky-dave wrote:
>
> >>
> >> geoff
> > Really there was 9, 15, 25 and 37 way and a 50 way which I never got to use.
> You found 9, 15, 25, 37, and 50 difficult to differentiate between ?

Not me persoanlly as I almost grew up with them.

But when someone asked me for a RS232 lead...
But tell me why most terminals needed a 25 pin lead when all they really needed was pins 2 , 3 and 7, a few devices
needed 8 and 20 sometimes crossed sometimes not.
Even in the early days of ethernet we had crossed leads and straight leads, then I think it was the an iBook
was the first computer that it didn;t matter as it auto dectected which wire transmitted and which recived.
Now few have to think whether they need a X or S lead , most now use wireless anyway.
Working in an electronics and computer lab we had so many adapters , gender changers, we also had SCSI,
while HP seemed to like IEEE standard, there were parellel printers, serial printers.Then we had
IBM AT to connect keyboards and mice with a DIN type connector similar to audio hi-Fi ,
Apple used a mini-DIN then PC went PS/2, then Apple went USB , then PCs went USB
and everything is mostly USB now, but we have USB A, B square, C, mini, micro....
There's also a range of mains connectors mayb ethe worlkd should settle on one of those.
We have UK Euro US and many other odd ones, and perhaps all cars should use the same tyre size.
Maybe electric cars should all have the same charging port, forget about any new fast charge options
that are in the pipeline.

> > Then was it crossed or straight was DCD used , then there was busy ackw
> > and x-on x-off and many other pins that I've luckily mostly forgot about.
> > all just for 8 bit communication, of course have a standard 25 pins when you only really needed pins 2,3, & gnd
> > did seem a bit wasteful expense wise.
> That's not the connector - that is one particular use and protocol
> being put through it.

Yes so now we have the USB 'protocol' but still have differnt connectors.
Same with HDMI .

> > I just don't think govenments should have much say in these sort of areas.
> Agreed.

Well perhaps if I believed anyone in govenment has a clue about technology I might trust them,
but from leaving CD, laptops , paperwork in cabs and public transport, sending out emails
to everyone on their list exposing translators and the like to terrorists, personlly I;d rather the best innovators
set standards for the future.
>
> geoff

[Alan Browne]

Yes, people did, esp. Carlos several posts up.

[Alan Browne]

RS-232 was so loosely defined that it often worked if one didn't even
meet the loose definition. Thus, at some point, connecting one
"correctly" implemented RS-232 port to another resulted in crickets, at
least in one direction. Been there, fried that chicken many times, and
kludged around it quite often too.