B&H and Adorama Closed!
carrigman
visit to B&H to buy a Canon lens. Off I went one morning only to find the
store closed for the week. No word of explanation. No matter, there was
always Adorama. So I hightailed it down to West 18th Street only to find
myself, together with a bunch of other bemused photographers, staring at
shuttered windows and a notice saying they too were closed for the week!
All to do with a Jewish holiday, I understand. Surely they have enough
non-Jewish employees to cater for the rest of us? I didn't see any other
major New York stores closed for religious reasons and I think it is
outrageous for these two firms to treat its customers like this.
John,
Ireland
Mark˛
All you needed to do was go to B&H's web-site...where a sign would be shown,
warning about their holiday schedule, which includes lengthy religious
observances during October.
Joseph Meehan
Just check their web page before you go.
--
Joseph Meehan
Dia duit
[BnH]
Try looking for a local delicacy during the month of Ramadhan and I can say
to you .. good luck :D
=bob=
"carrigman" <carr...@deathtospammershotmail.com> wrote in message
news:djd79c$gin$1...@reader01.news.esat.net...
Mark˛
> I'm just back from a trip to New York City where high on my agenda
> was a visit to B&H to buy a Canon lens. Off I went one morning only
> to find the store closed for the week. No word of explanation.
> I didn't see any
> other major New York stores closed for religious reasons and I think
> it is outrageous for these two firms to treat its customers like this.
>
> John,
> Ireland
"Outrageous to treat their customers like..." what??? What have they done
to you except to expose your poor planning? One visit to B&H's website and
you'd have seen their huge sign noting their closed days this month. B&H
and Adorama have the best reputations in the industry. What is outrageous
is your disregard of their right to honor their religious beliefs through
the conduct their own business.
EF in FLA
>
LOL I suppose there are NO OTHER camera stores in NYC.
ef
carrigman
> "Outrageous to treat their customers like..." what??? What have they done
> to you except to expose your poor planning? One visit to B&H's website
> and you'd have seen their huge sign noting their closed days this month.
> B&H and Adorama have the best reputations in the industry. What is
> outrageous is your disregard of their right to honor their religious
> beliefs through the conduct their own business.
The closure of these stores during the normal business week is not something
one expects and so the need to check their websites was not that obvious.
All other major stores in NYC seemed to be operating as normal. And surely
many of them are Jewish owned?
Anyhow, I'll know better next time.
John
carrigman
stock, as far as I know.
John
"EF in FLA" <e...@fla.com> wrote in message
news:Vgq6f.208159$p_1....@tornado.tampabay.rr.com...
(PeteCresswell)
>I think it is
>outrageous for these two firms to treat its customers like this.
When's the last time anybody found stores open on Christmas Day in a
predominately Christian area? I've seen it, but my thought has always been
that somebody should get a life and just close the place for that day.
--
PeteCresswell
Charles
<carr...@deathtospammershotmail.com> wrote:
> All to do with a Jewish holiday, I understand. Surely they have enough
> non-Jewish employees to cater for the rest of us? I didn't see any other
> major New York stores closed for religious reasons and I think it is
> outrageous for these two firms to treat its customers like this.
The other major stores in New York are open because most Jews are not
of that Orthodox persuasion like most of those employed at B&H and
Adorama. And no, they don't have enough employees who are not of that
Orthodox persuasion to keep the stores open. That is the way it is, no
point in being outraged. Those stores have operated this way for many
years and are able to stay in business despite their long closings.
--
Charles
Joseph Meehan
...
>
> The closure of these stores during the normal business week is not
> something one expects and so the need to check their websites was not
> that obvious.
From years of dealing with businesses all over the US, I would say it IS
something that is obvious to me. I guess we all have to learn sometime, and
hopefully you will accept this as a learning opportunity and not an insult
or poor service. It is not at all uncommon in cities having large ethnic
communities of any kind that serve the public.
>
> All other major stores in NYC seemed to be operating as normal. And
> surely many of them are Jewish owned?
>
> Anyhow, I'll know better next time.
>
> John
--
Joseph Meehan
Dia duit
carrigman
"Charles" <for...@mac.com> wrote in message>
The other major stores in New York are open because most Jews are not
> of that Orthodox persuasion like most of those employed at B&H and
> Adorama. And no, they don't have enough employees who are not of that
> Orthodox persuasion to keep the stores open. That is the way it is, no
> point in being outraged. Those stores have operated this way for many
> years and are able to stay in business despite their long closings.
>
> --
> Charles
Thanks for the explanation, Charles.
John.
n...@nowhere.com
wrote:
>You know, it wasn't that many years ago in this country that virtually
>all businesses were closed on Sunday. I can remember a time when the
>only places open for business on Sundays were SOME grocery stores and
>SOME gas stations. EVERYTHING else was closed.
Yup, and things have changed. These businesses have opened for
business on Sundays, or not, or have passed from the scene. The
same with B&H. I wanted to order a flash and lens from B&H but
was unable to because of their holidays. I purchased them from a
competitor. This will either adversely affect B&H or not. Depending
on the numbers of people who do the same. Free country and all
that. I suppose people of the Jewish faith are a little aggravated
when Christian businesses close down for a week or more during the
Christmas holidays. These posts about B&H and Adorama have
illustrated why I wish religious beliefs were mandated by law to be
*PRIVATE*. No public expression of religion allowed. Expression
of "religion" has caused more pain, death, and suffering than all
other causes in the history of mankind.
carrigman
"Rita Ä Berkowitz" <ritaberk2O04 @aol.com> wrote >
> Look at it this way, John, they saved you the aggravation of having to
> declare any property when you got back to Dublin.
> Rita
Very true, Rita. I was worried about getting the lens through Customs&
Excise. What if my bags were checked and the lens discovered? I'd have to
pay a hefty tax on it. I arrived back in Ireland at 6am local time this
morning and guess what.....there was no Customs check! I could have brought
in a raft of stuff and walked straight through. Which makes the stores
closures all the more annoying. Grrrr.
John
Steve Kramer
carrigman wrote:
>
> I'm just back from a trip to New York City where high on my agenda was a
> visit to B&H to buy a Canon lens. Off I went one morning only to find the
> store closed for the week. No word of explanation. No matter, there was
> always Adorama. So I hightailed it down to West 18th Street only to find
> myself, together with a bunch of other bemused photographers, staring at
> shuttered windows and a notice saying they too were closed for the week!
>
> All to do with a Jewish holiday, I understand.
Rosh Hashana (New Year' Day) and Yom Kippur (the Day of Atonement) are
the two most serious of all the Jewish holy days, especially Yom Kippur
which is the only sad holiday during the entire year. These are followed
by Sukkos, the happy festival of the new harvest. As B&H is owned by
very religious Hassidic Jews, and most of their staff are also Hassidic
Jews, they close for their holy days.
> Surely they have enough
> non-Jewish employees to cater for the rest of us?
Actually..... they don't.
> I didn't see any other
> major New York stores closed for religious reasons
Quite a few shops in New York actually close EVERY Sunday! Can you
imagine! EVERY SINGLE SUNDAY! Makes it very difficult for customers who
work Mon-Saturday!
> and I think it is
> outrageous for these two firms to treat its customers like this.
I think you will find that most Vietnamese markets close for several
days at the end of Jan/begining of February for Tet. The Chinese shops
close for Chinese New Year (roughly same as Tet although often a day or
two different.) Almost all of Japan shuts down for a week for 'Obon'
during the summer months. For what it's worth, you can shop at B&H on
Christmas Day if you came, or Easter Sunday. And had you looked at their
calendar on their web page, they list all of their schedule for the
month of October and you would have saved yourself a trip.
Steve Kramer
"PhotoEnvisions" Freelance Photography
Chiang Mai, Thailand
http://www.photoenvisions.com
--
"The voyage of discovery lies not in seeking new horizons, but in seeing
with new eyes." - Marcel Proust
W (winhag)
Adorama have booths there.
THIS@cox.net Bill in Alexandria
If New York City is, what, only 25% Jewish, you'd think a big
company like B&H would have enough trustworthy and competent staff to serve
its broader customer base.
On the other hand, B&H is not alone. My son tells me that the A&P
grocery store across the river in Hoboken closes on Saturday noon before
Easter, and doesn't open again until Monday morning. You'd think that the
only large grocery store in the little trendy town would want to better
serve its customer base.
Since I like B&H, I would be VERY disappointed if I made an effort to
go there only to find it closed--for me, sometimes it's years between visits
to NYC.
Bill
"carrigman" <carr...@deathtospammershotmail.com> wrote in message
news:djd79c$gin$1...@reader01.news.esat.net...
Jeremy
news:a3ekl1p0o999ugvfa...@4ax.com...
>
> Yup, and things have changed. These businesses have opened for
> business on Sundays, or not, or have passed from the scene. The
> same with B&H. I wanted to order a flash and lens from B&H but
> was unable to because of their holidays. I purchased them from a
> competitor. This will either adversely affect B&H or not. Depending
> on the numbers of people who do the same.
Oh, puleeze! Get off your friggin' soapbox. Where is it written that any
business must remain open 24/7 just to accommodate YOU?
Scott Gardner
I'm not a religious person myself, but I have a strong belief in the
right of both businesses and consumers to operate as they see fit. If
a business only wants to open its doors on alternate Tuesdays, then
that's their right. Whether the market will support such a practice
is another matter, but that's besides the point.
Likewise, if I only buy from stores that are open on Sundays, have
green walls, and have door chimes that play "Ode to Joy", that's my
perogative as well. If that limits my choices, well, that's MY
problem, not the store owners'.
Since you're against public expression of religion, would you extend
that to outlawing religious clothing, hairstyles, and jewelry? I'm
just curious how far you're wanting to go with this.
--
Scott Gardner
"My veal cutlet tried to beat the shit out of my cup of coffee... the coffee just wasn't strong enough to defend himself. (Tom Waits)
robie
do stores that you frequent close for christmas? does that bother you?
private businesses are free to hold whichever hours they please....
I believe the websites and publications of these stores advertise their
holiday closings every year
jean
"carrigman" <carr...@deathtospammershotmail.com> a écrit dans le message
de news:djdf00$it4$1...@reader01.news.esat.net...
With your sense of rightness, I suppose you would have paid the taxes due
voluntarily if you had purchased a lens ?
Jean
Skip M
news:djd79c$gin$1...@reader01.news.esat.net...
>
> non-Jewish employees to cater for the rest of us? I didn't see any other
> major New York stores closed for religious reasons and I think it is
> outrageous for these two firms to treat its customers like this.
>
> John,
> Ireland
>
you've decided to go to Macy's. Much to your dismay, they are so
inconsiderate as to be closed, and on December 25th, too!
--
Skip Middleton
http://www.shadowcatcherimagery.com
THIS@cox.net Bill in Alexandria
"John A. Stovall" <johnas...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:1rikl199au0h77p60...@4ax.com...
> On Sat, 22 Oct 2005 10:00:16 -0400, "Bill in Alexandria"
> <BMcGovernWITHOUT TH...@cox.net> wrote:
>
>>I am sympathetic to John's disappointment.
>>
>> If New York City is, what, only 25% Jewish, you'd think a big
>>company like B&H would have enough trustworthy and competent staff to
>>serve
>>its broader customer base.
>
> A business can do what it want's to as far as hours and days of
> operation.
>
> I'm sure B&H will fail without your trade.
> *********************************************************
>
> "It looked like the sort of book described in library
> catalogues as "slightly foxed", although it would be
> more honest to admit that it looked as though it had
> been badgered, wolved and possibly beared as well."
>
> _Light Fantastic_
> Terry Pratchett
Cynicor
> On Sat, 22 Oct 2005 12:20:15 +0100, "carrigman"
> <carr...@deathtospammershotmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>>I'm just back from a trip to New York City where high on my agenda was a
>>visit to B&H to buy a Canon lens. Off I went one morning only to find the
>>store closed for the week. No word of explanation. No matter, there was
>>always Adorama. So I hightailed it down to West 18th Street only to find
>>myself, together with a bunch of other bemused photographers, staring at
>>shuttered windows and a notice saying they too were closed for the week!
>>
>>non-Jewish employees to cater for the rest of us? I didn't see any other
>>major New York stores closed for religious reasons and I think it is
>>outrageous for these two firms to treat its customers like this.
>
>
> for religious reasons. It shows a quality lacking in the world of
> commerce today.
>
> I think the 6K I've spent with them this year will make up for your
> not doing business with them.
When I was there a week or two ago, they handed out a slip to everyone
as they exited, listing which days they'd be closed in October. True,
that only helps frequent visitors, but they did make an effort.
As I first looked at the slip, I wondered if they could keep the place
open with non-Jewish help, but I agree wholeheartedly. B&H is showing
that at least for one store, it's not about the money. (And if you've
ever been to B&H, you know that it's not just about the money.)
Don Wiss
>The other major stores in New York are open because most Jews are not
>of that Orthodox persuasion like most of those employed at B&H and
>Adorama. And no, they don't have enough employees who are not of that
>Orthodox persuasion to keep the stores open.
Actually in the Orthodox community there is a bit of disagreement about not
working for the entire Sukkos period. All agree that they can't work at the
beginning and end, but some feel it is okay to work in the middle. So in
the middle days many take a middle position. They don't go into work, but
they will do work at home. And then some do go into work on the middle
days.
Don <www.donwiss.com> (e-mail link at home page bottom).
Robert R Kircher, Jr.
news:djd79c$gin$1...@reader01.news.esat.net...
> visit to B&H to buy a Canon lens. Off I went one morning only to find the
> store closed for the week. No word of explanation. No matter, there was
> always Adorama. So I hightailed it down to West 18th Street only to find
> myself, together with a bunch of other bemused photographers, staring at
> shuttered windows and a notice saying they too were closed for the week!
>
> All to do with a Jewish holiday, I understand. Surely they have enough
> non-Jewish employees to cater for the rest of us? I didn't see any other
> major New York stores closed for religious reasons and I think it is
> outrageous for these two firms to treat its customers like this.
>
I think many people could do with a remedial course in religious culture,
respect, and tolerance.
--
Rob
"A disturbing new study finds that studies are disturbing"
Bill Funk
@aol.com> wrote:
>(PeteCresswell) wrote:
>
>> When's the last time anybody found stores open on Christmas Day in a
>> predominately Christian area? I've seen it, but my thought has
>> always been that somebody should get a life and just close the place
>> for that day.
>
>What's Christmas? It's just another busy shopping day for most. It's sad
>to say Christmas caved into the almighty dollar.
>
>
>
>
>
>Rita
Here in Phoenix, Christmas is definitely NOT a busy shopping day; most
stores are closed.
Now, the day *AFTER* Christmas...
--
Bill Funk
Replace "g" with "a"
funktionality.blogspot.com
Steven Wandy
> All to do with a Jewish holiday, I understand. Surely they have enough
> non-Jewish employees to cater for the rest of us?
It has nothing to do with the amount of non-Jewish employees. If the owner
is Jewish,
he is not supposed to conduct business (interpret this as make money) on
some of the
more important holidays (Rosh Hashanah, Yom Kippur, First and last days of
Succoth, First days of Passover) and Sabbath (Saturday) regardless of if he
has non-Jewish
help. They are still making money for him.
Stephen M. Dunn
$The other major stores in New York are open because most Jews are not
$of that Orthodox persuasion like most of those employed at B&H and
$Adorama. And no, they don't have enough employees who are not of that
$Orthodox persuasion to keep the stores open.
Actually, there's more (or less, depending on your point of view) to
it than that.
Different Jews have different views of what the rules are (just
as in other religions; I once dated a girl who claimed to be Catholic
but didn't feel that the Catholic prohibition of premarital sex applied
to her). Those towards the more Orthodox end of the scale, of course,
won't work on the Sabbath and on holidays. And if they're far enough
towards that end of the scale, they're also forbidden to cause work to
be done, even if they're not doing the work themselves. Some ultra-
Orthodox Jews won't even turn on a light or an appliance on the
Sabbath, for instance. And that extends to causing employees to
do work for them. Even if you have plenty of non-Jewish (or Jewish
but not Orthodox or observant) staff who could work without violating
their personal religious views, your store still has to be closed.
--
Stephen M. Dunn <ste...@stevedunn.ca>
>>>----------------> http://www.stevedunn.ca/ <----------------<<<
------------------------------------------------------------------
Say hi to my cat -- http://www.stevedunn.ca/photos/toby/
Rich
<BMcGovernWITHOUT TH...@cox.net> wrote:
>I am sympathetic to John's disappointment.
>
> If New York City is, what, only 25% Jewish, you'd think a big
>company like B&H would have enough trustworthy and competent staff to serve
>its broader customer base.
Are you kidding? They probably think that section of the staff would
simply drive up in a group of U-Hauls and cart away the entire stock.
Which has happened with some places, specifically, a car stereo store
in Toronto.
-Rich
THIS@cox.net Bill in Alexandria
Very interesting--okay I'll take back some of my comments above on
other employees who might be "trustworthy and competent"!
Thanks for shedding some light on this for me.
Bill
"Stephen M. Dunn" <ste...@stevedunn.ca> wrote in message
news:IoruM...@stevedunn.ca...
none
> All to do with a Jewish holiday, I understand. Surely they have enough
> major New York stores closed for religious reasons and I think it is
> outrageous for these two firms to treat its customers like this.
B&H has lost some of my money because of their frequent closings.
However, it is a privately owned buisness, which can be operated however
its owners like, as long as they do not break the law.
Personally, I would be more concerned about their hiring practices,
which seem like they might be discriminatory on the basis of both
ethnicity and religion. I have not met every B&H employee, but it does
seem like all of their employees are Hasidic Jews.
-Mike
Neil Harrington
"Gary Edstrom" <geds...@pacbell.net> wrote in message
news:4m9kl1pi93jnbsm1m...@4ax.com...
> On Sat, 22 Oct 2005 12:20:15 +0100, "carrigman"
>
>>All to do with a Jewish holiday, I understand. Surely they have enough
>>non-Jewish employees to cater for the rest of us? I didn't see any other
>>major New York stores closed for religious reasons and I think it is
>>outrageous for these two firms to treat its customers like this.
>>
>>Ireland
>
> So, are you saying that other businesses should have enough
> Non-Christian employees so that they can stay open on Christmas Day?
> What about the Thanksgiving, New Years, Labor Day, July 4th, and
> Memorial Day holidays? Are you upset that many businesses close on
> those holidays?
Those are all national holidays. People know when the national holidays are
and on a few of them, expect at least some businesses to be closed or be
open only for shorter hours. Also, each of those holidays is ONE DAY and
therefore does not pose much of an inconvenience, compared to a religious
holiday that lasts several days or a week.
>
> You know, it wasn't that many years ago in this country that virtually
> all businesses were closed on Sunday. I can remember a time when the
> only places open for business on Sundays were SOME grocery stores and
> SOME gas stations. EVERYTHING else was closed.
In some cases as required by law. In my state you still can't buy beer, wine
or booze on a Sunday, except in a restaurant (which is pretty silly, but
there you are).
>
> A visit to B&H's web site ahead of time would have told you of their
> closure. Do you have some reason that businesses should be allowed to
> observe Christian holidays but not Jewish holidays?
For the most part, no "Christian holidays" (plural) are observed except the
NATIONAL holiday of Christmas. That's just one day and really has nothing to
do with the Christian religion anyway, popular associations and myth
notwithstanding. A few states do observe Good Friday as a state holiday, but
most businesses stay open then anyway. I don't know of any other "Christian
holidays" that are actual recognized holidays in the sense of workers
getting the day off or businesses shutting down, and certainly not any that
last several days or a week.
Anyway, this is not a question of whether "businesses should be ALLOWED to
observe [etc.]" (emphasis added). Businesses can do as they please, for
whatever reason they like, within the constraints of the law. I don't know
of any laws *requiring* stores to stay open on certain days.
The fact is, stores closing for the Jewish holidays do often make it
inconvenient for customers. I just bought a Minolta A200, received it before
last weekend, found a defect with the external flash sync and have to ship
it back to the store--which like most camera stores in the NY/NJ area is
Jewish owned and observes those holidays. So when I called customer service
on Monday, they were closed. I had to wait until Thursday to reach them for
an RA number. In this case the advice given several times to the OP in this
thread to "check the web site" is irrelevant; it was the web site from which
I ordered, and the Jewish holidays did not enter into the matter at all
until *after* I had received the camera. Not a big problem for me as I have
lots of cameras and can do without the A200 replacement for a few extra
days, though I did plan on using that particular camera on a particular day
trip soon.
Neil
Neil Harrington
"jean" <try...@find.it> wrote in message
news:iTr6f.12888$ns3.1...@news20.bellglobal.com...
Just as you do and all of us do, Jean. We just love to pay taxes on stuff,
and often arrange our purchases so that we can pay as much tax as possible.
Paying taxes is not only a joy and a privilege but an unalienable right, a
constitutional right, which is why we have it in our Bill of Rights.
Oh, wait . . .
Neil
Frank ess
It's a very complex task to ensure no UPS, USPS, FedEx, et al.,
employees are carting their merch around on holidays...
--
Frank ess
none
> This seems like a classic childish foot-stomping-hold-my-breath tantrum
> to me. I can't for the life of me think of a piece of equipment that
> you would need that damn fast?
In additition to the cost of the good, there is the opportunity cost of
not using the good. Another shop may have the same item for $5 more than
B&H, but I will recieve the item a week earlier and enjoy its use for an
extra week. That may be worth more than $5 to me.
It's not a matter of foot-stomping, but rather economics and personal
choice. Obviously, you are not going to wait an extra year so that you
can get an item for $5 less. But would you wait an extra hour, an extra
day, or an extra week? Different people will make different choices.
> Unless, of course, you are some
> important multi-million dollar production company, but good planning on
> *your* part would have eliminated this problem since you would have
> ordered it a day in advance.
I'm not sure what you mean by this -- in this case, B&H will be closed
for a bit over a week. However, it does also depend on your personal
schedule. If Friday evening is the most convinent time for you to pick
up the item, and the store is closed on Friday evenings, then you will
probably go somewhere else, even if it is slightly more expensive.
> You haven't been out much? Go to some of the predominantly black
> neighborhoods and you'll never see an American working in any of the
> Asian shops. Give the petty discrimination crap a rest.
It depends on the person. Some people will discriminate while others
will not. For example, J&R is owned by a Jewish family, yet there are
many gentiles employed there. Furthermore, I don't understand why you
think racism (if it exists, which is admittedly not proven in this case)
should be considered "petty."
-Mike
Neil Harrington
>
> Different Jews have different views of what the rules are (just
> as in other religions; I once dated a girl who claimed to be Catholic
> but didn't feel that the Catholic prohibition of premarital sex applied
> to her). Those towards the more Orthodox end of the scale, of course,
> won't work on the Sabbath and on holidays. And if they're far enough
> towards that end of the scale, they're also forbidden to cause work to
> be done, even if they're not doing the work themselves. Some ultra-
> Orthodox Jews won't even turn on a light or an appliance on the
> Sabbath, for instance. And that extends to causing employees to
> do work for them. Even if you have plenty of non-Jewish (or Jewish
> but not Orthodox or observant) staff who could work without violating
> their personal religious views, your store still has to be closed.
If I remember correctly, "shabbos goy" was what a Jewish employer called a
gentile employee hired to work on the Sabbath so the employer (and Jewish
employees) would not have to. As you say, the prohibition against such work
is viewed differently by different Jews.
A Jewish friend of mine told me that very observant Jews would not even
carry pocket change for parking meters or public telephones on the Sabbath,
the idea being that even the use of those devices was considered a manner of
conducting business.
Other prohibitions are viewed differently in some other religions (or sects)
also. At one time I worked with a number of Mennonites from Pennsylvania,
who have strict rules about a number of things, including the color of their
automobiles, which rules evidently varied from church to church. Some
churches required cars owned by their congregation members to be painted
black. I worked with one such fellow; his car was painted black all right,
but was loaded with chrome, had whitewall tires and a very classy interior
with all the trimmings, not to mention a big hemi V-8 under the hood, so it
was anything but *severe* in, say, the way that an Amish buggy is severe.
But he told me that some other churches insisted on much more restraint, and
required even the bumpers to be painted black.
Neil
Neil Harrington
>>visit to B&H to buy a Canon lens. Off I went one morning only to find the
>>store closed for the week. No word of explanation. No matter, there was
>>always Adorama. So I hightailed it down to West 18th Street only to find
>>myself, together with a bunch of other bemused photographers, staring at
>>shuttered windows and a notice saying they too were closed for the week!
>>
>>non-Jewish employees to cater for the rest of us? I didn't see any other
>>major New York stores closed for religious reasons and I think it is
>>outrageous for these two firms to treat its customers like this.
>
> for religious reasons. It shows a quality lacking in the world of
> commerce today.
>
> I think the 6K I've spent with them this year will make up for your
> not doing business with them.
Why, would you have reduced your purchases by the amount of the OP's if
they'd been open for him?
Anyway, his complaint was about their treatment of customers, not their loss
because he couldn't buy from them.
Neil
none
> If Freedom means anything it should mean an employer can hire who ever
> he want's and the market will decide if he made the correct choice.
There are some people (libertarians) who believe that the only important
freedom is the right to do what you want with your private property.
Most people seem to disagree with this, which is why we have minimum
wage laws, worker's compensation laws, and anti-discrimination laws.
Personally, I do not believe that libertarianism can be justified. In
any case, hiring discrimination is against the law, so it is a
reasonable concern, even if you disagree with the law's intentions.
-Mike
Neil Harrington
"Robert R Kircher, Jr." <rrki...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:742dnRJxuo-...@giganews.com...
And also, a wet duck never flies at night.
Neil
Neil Harrington
"(PeteCresswell)" <x...@y.Invalid> wrote in message
news:jeokl1letko9tv0dt...@4ax.com...
> Per carrigman:
>>I think it is
>>outrageous for these two firms to treat its customers like this.
>
> predominately Christian area?
Last Christmas.
> I've seen it, but my thought has always been
> that somebody should get a life and just close the place for that day.
Because it's Christmas?
Hey, if you ever own a store you can "get a life and close the place for
that day," for whatever delirious joy that brings you.
Neil
Neil Harrington
"Rita Ä Berkowitz" <ritaberk2O04 @aol.com> wrote in message
news:11lket2...@news.supernews.com...
> (PeteCresswell) wrote:
>
>> When's the last time anybody found stores open on Christmas Day in a
>> always been that somebody should get a life and just close the place
>> for that day.
>
> to say Christmas caved into the almighty dollar.
But that's GOOD. It's good for business and good for the economy.
Also, it's very traditional in a pre-Christianity sort of way, which is good
in itself. When you say "Christmas caved" it sounds as though you think it
stood for something it never really stood for. It's the good old pagan
celebration of the winter solstice, the origins of the Yule tree, exchanging
gifts, the colors red and green, etc., loosely adapted to a Christian
culture but really having no foundation in Christianity itself.
Neil
Jeremy
news:YBr6f.7385$v_5.6682@dukeread07...
>I am sympathetic to John's disappointment.
>
> If New York City is, what, only 25% Jewish, you'd think a big
> company like B&H would have enough trustworthy and competent staff to
> serve its broader customer base.
>
> grocery store across the river in Hoboken closes on Saturday noon before
> Easter, and doesn't open again until Monday morning. You'd think that the
> only large grocery store in the little trendy town would want to better
> serve its customer base.
>
> Since I like B&H, I would be VERY disappointed if I made an effort
> to go there only to find it closed--for me, sometimes it's years between
> visits to NYC.
>
> Bill
>
> "carrigman" <carr...@deathtospammershotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:djd79c$gin$1...@reader01.news.esat.net...
>> I'm just back from a trip to New York City where high on my agenda was a
>> visit to B&H to buy a Canon lens. Off I went one morning only to find the
>> store closed for the week. No word of explanation. No matter, there was
>> always Adorama. So I hightailed it down to West 18th Street only to find
>> myself, together with a bunch of other bemused photographers, staring at
>> shuttered windows and a notice saying they too were closed for the week!
>>
>> All to do with a Jewish holiday, I understand. Surely they have enough
>> non-Jewish employees to cater for the rest of us? I didn't see any other
>>
Here in Pennsylvania, only 60 miles from Philadelphia, in Lancaster County,
the Amish and Mennonite business owners never do business on Sundays, and
they close even on such religious holidays as Good Friday and Ascension
Thursday! I admit to having been somewhat startled about the Ascension
Thursday closings, but that is their right, and they owe no one anything in
the way of compensation. For a customer to go about complaining on the
Internet--to a potential worldwide audience--is not only inappropriate, but
it is a display of contempt for the religious traditions of others.
I have never heard a Jew complain about Christians that close their
businesses on Sundays. And I have never heard a Gentile complain that Jews
keep their businesses open on Sundays, either. Really, who cares about
petty stuff like that.
What I do remember is back in the days of the Blue Laws, when I was growing
up in New Jersey, when stores were prohibited from selling certain types of
merchandise on Sundays. You could buy cameras, film and accessories on
Sundays, but not clothing. Our local department store had to rope off the
apparel sections on Sundays, and they turned the lights off in those areas
of the store.
Thankfully we have progressed to where the State is completely neutral in
these matters (But, last time I looked, taverns in Pennsylvania could not
open for business on Sundays unless they also served food. And even today,
one cannot buy a new car in Philadelphia on Sundays, because the dealers are
prohibited from opening. And this when the City of Philadelphia is about to
license slot machines at various locations within the next several months!)
Jeremy
"½ Confused" <some...@someplace.somenet> wrote in message
news:9r2ll15hgpoaroiq8...@4ax.com...
> On Sat, 22 Oct 2005 10:00:16 -0400
> "Bill in Alexandria" <BMcGovernWITHOUT TH...@cox.net> wrote:
>
>> I am sympathetic to John's disappointment.
>>
>> If New York City is, what, only 25% Jewish, you'd think a big
>> company like B&H would have enough trustworthy and competent staff to
>> serve
>> its broader customer base.
>
> Bulderdash! A staff that has a generous vacation policy IS usually
> trustworthy, competent, and loyal. Good for the company, good for the
> customers, and good for the longevity of the business.
>
> Jeff (not a confusing issue)
Although that is true, the real bone of contention is that control freaks
like the OP have no standing when it comes to dictating to privately-owned
business when they must be open and when they may close.
Sort of makes me want to tell him to go f*** himself!
none
> Yes, this is called shopping around and buying merchandise around your
> criteria. That being said, you don't blame a merchant for your poor
> planning and lack of will to do some research.
It is not a matter of assigning fault or blame. A transaction only
occurs if the buyer and seller can meet each other's needs. I do not
plan every purchase a week in advance -- maybe others can and do, but
that's just not the way I am.
B&H was, in some cases, less able to meet my needs than other sellers,
so the other sellers recieved my money. I am not "blaming" B&H, just
choosing to spend my money elsewhere.
> Good planning and communication will
> eliminate these problems and heartaches.
Once again -- there is no "heartache." I am just saying that B&H lost my
money (in some cases) because they were not open when I wanted to make a
purchase.
> If Friday evening is the most convinent time for you to pick
>> up the item, and the store is closed on Friday evenings, then you will
>> probably go somewhere else, even if it is slightly more expensive.
> Again, lack of proper planning and scheduling on *YOUR* part is the crux of
> your problem not B&H's.
Why would you schedule your entire life around B&H? Should I take a
different job so I can shop at B&H on Thursday evening? Or refuse to see
my girlfriend so I can go there on Sunday? B&H is only a seller -- one
of many who offer very similar pricing. If they are open, I'll
go there. If not, I'll simply go elsewhere.
> Mike, the race card has been played so many times by so many different
> people that, yes, it's petty.
I think it's possible that racial issues are raised a lot because there
is a lot a racism and racial tension.
> The problem is when there is *REAL*
> discrimination being inflicted it goes unchallenged because of the
> pettiness of the fools that overplayed the race card prior.
So you can only mention a problem if it is of cataclysmic importance? I
don't think you have to ignore the little problems in order to address
the big problems.
-Mike
Mark˛
I don't know about that...
-When applying for a job there, I suspect many potential employees balk at
being informed that they will be "out of work" for nearly the entire month
of October. Most people would have a hard time dealing with the financial
remifications of this non-work schedule.
Mark˛
Bull.
Should churches have to hire atheists if one applies?
-Or other people not of their faith?
Of course not.
Doug Robbins
"carrigman" <carr...@deathtospammershotmail.com> wrote in message
news:djdbm0$hrk$1...@reader01.news.esat.net...
> "Mark²" <>
>> "Outrageous to treat their customers like..." what??? What have they
>> done to you except to expose your poor planning? One visit to B&H's
>> website and you'd have seen their huge sign noting their closed days this
>> month. B&H and Adorama have the best reputations in the industry. What
>> is outrageous is your disregard of their right to honor their religious
>> beliefs through the conduct their own business.
>
> The closure of these stores during the normal business week is not
> something one expects and so the need to check their websites was not that
> obvious.
>
> All other major stores in NYC seemed to be operating as normal. And surely
> many of them are Jewish owned?
>
> Anyhow, I'll know better next time.
>
> John
>
>
>
>
>
>
Mark˛
> On Sat, 22 Oct 2005 11:55:19 GMT, Gary Edstrom <geds...@pacbell.net>
> wrote:
>
>> You know, it wasn't that many years ago in this country that
>> virtually all businesses were closed on Sunday. I can remember a
>> grocery stores and SOME gas stations. EVERYTHING else was closed.
>
> business on Sundays, or not, or have passed from the scene. The
> same with B&H. I wanted to order a flash and lens from B&H but
> was unable to because of their holidays. I purchased them from a
> competitor. This will either adversely affect B&H or not.
They have always done this...
and...
...they are *THE* biggest photo/video store on planet Earth.
-Seems to me they have pretty good business practices.
Steve Wolfe
> company like B&H would have enough trustworthy and competent staff to
> serve its broader customer base.
>
> grocery store across the river in Hoboken closes on Saturday noon before
> Easter, and doesn't open again until Monday morning. You'd think that the
> only large grocery store in the little trendy town would want to better
> serve its customer base.
It's a free market. If they're treating their customers that badly,
someone else can waltz right in and take a portion of their business. If
that hasn't happened, then either nobody has seen the opportunity, or their
customers really don't mind that much.
steve
Neil Harrington
"Jeremy" <jer...@nospam.com> wrote in message
news:CFw6f.2161$HW5.2011@trnddc04...
[ . . . ]
>
> I have never heard a Jew complain about Christians that close their
> businesses on Sundays.
Ever heard of Christians closing their businesses for several days or a week
at a time, for religious reasons?
> And I have never heard a Gentile complain that Jews keep their businesses
> open on Sundays, either.
???
Why would anyone complain that the store he wants to do business with is
OPEN?
> Really, who cares about petty stuff like that.
The OP apparently wanted to buy stuff at one of the big camera stores while
he was in New York for the day, and then had to go back to Ireland. In the
same circumstances I'd be pissed myself, and probably you would too. It
wasn't a national holiday or anything like that, and who (other than a Jew)
knows or cares when the Jewish holidays are?
Sear...@mail.con2.com
Steven Wandy wrote:
> > All to do with a Jewish holiday, I understand. Surely they have enough
> > non-Jewish employees to cater for the rest of us?
>
> is Jewish,
> he is not supposed to conduct business (interpret this as make money) on
> some of the
> more important holidays (Rosh Hashanah, Yom Kippur, First and last days of
> Succoth, First days of Passover) and Sabbath (Saturday) regardless of if he
> has non-Jewish
> help. They are still making money for him.
Crap...
The last time I went to the Phot Expo, there were two guys advertising
for B&H. They weren't selling anything, but they were *working*(which
is supposed to be against orthodox beliefs).
Darren Harris
Staten Island, New York.
Mark˛
"Orthodox belliefs" vary greatly.
Sear...@mail.con2.com
I know...
I was replying to what was said by "Steven Wandy".
clu...@lycos.com
>All to do with a Jewish holiday, I understand. Surely they have enough
>non-Jewish employees to cater for the rest of us? I didn't see any other
>major New York stores closed for religious reasons and I think it is
>outrageous for these two firms to treat its customers like this.
I'm sure they are willing to NOT have you as a customer.
Wes
ASAAR
>> Succoth, First days of Passover) and Sabbath (Saturday) regardless of
>> if he has non-Jewish
>> help. They are still making money for him.
>
>
> Crap...
>
> The last time I went to the Phot Expo, there were two guys advertising
> for B&H. They weren't selling anything, but they were *working*(which
> is supposed to be against orthodox beliefs).
They may not have been directly hired by B&H. There may have been
an ad agency involved, so they'd be working for the agency, not for
B&H. I occasionally hear B&H ads on the radio. I suppose I'll now
be inclined to notice on which days of the week they appear. B&H
does advertise in magazines, and it would be unreasonable to think
they'd consider prohibiting newstands from selling magazines
containing their ads on Saturdays and religious holidays. :)
ASAAR
> Personally, I would be more concerned about their hiring practices,
> which seem like they might be discriminatory on the basis of both
> ethnicity and religion. I have not met every B&H employee, but it does
> seem like all of their employees are Hasidic Jews.
That's the problem with stereotypes and profiles. They allow one
to make jump to conclusions that are flat-out wrong. Of course I
may be doing the same, as I assume that the very nice black employee
that helped me a couple of months ago wasn't a Hasidic Jew. I think
there are also one or two oriental employees, and a number of others
that don't wear traditional Hasidic garb.
David Dyer-Bennet
> I'm just back from a trip to New York City where high on my agenda was a
> visit to B&H to buy a Canon lens. Off I went one morning only to find the
> store closed for the week. No word of explanation. No matter, there was
> always Adorama. So I hightailed it down to West 18th Street only to find
> myself, together with a bunch of other bemused photographers, staring at
> shuttered windows and a notice saying they too were closed for the week!
>
> All to do with a Jewish holiday, I understand. Surely they have enough
> non-Jewish employees to cater for the rest of us? I didn't see any other
> major New York stores closed for religious reasons and I think it is
> outrageous for these two firms to treat its customers like this.
I ran into that one year, phone order not in person (it was
pre-internet). I had let the time slip so far that I had to buy my
N90 from Beach Camera (back when they were the third good mail order
store). I just wrote it off to my own poor planning (because I did
know that B&H was run by orthodox Jews and tended to close for Jewish
holidays; for that matter, at least then they closed early Friday and
weren't open Saturday, either, but they were open Sunday).
It's inconvenient sometimes, since even roughly when those holidays
occur isn't deeply embedded into my consciousness and they manage to
take me by surprise now and then. I don't know why, but I end up
feeling *happy* that they take this approach. That's really weird,
since I'm basically opposed to religion in all its forms.
--
David Dyer-Bennet, <mailto:dd...@dd-b.net>, <http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/>
RKBA: <http://noguns-nomoney.com/> <http://www.dd-b.net/carry/>
Pics: <http://dd-b.lighthunters.net/> <http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/SnapshotAlbum/>
Dragaera/Steven Brust: <http://dragaera.info/>
Rich
The reason that businesses started opening on Sundays about
20 years ago was because of complaints that it was religion-based
and it was interferring with other people's lives.
Who do you think did most of the complaining? It wasn't the
Catholics. Now, most people don't care, because of busy lifestyles.
-Rich
Rich
wrote:
Mostly because it doesn't happen in key buying seasons. Many stores
lose business because some open on Boxing Day and even Christmas.
People will shop all the time, if given the chance because of
convenience.
-Rich
Peter Irwin
> John A. Stovall wrote:
>> If Freedom means anything it should mean an employer can hire who ever
>> he want's and the market will decide if he made the correct choice.
>
> any case, hiring discrimination is against the law, so it is a
> reasonable concern, even if you disagree with the law's intentions.
I think it quite likely that the bias is not on
the employers' side at all. If a business is well known
to keep Jewish holidays, then a large number people who
take Jewish holidays seriously will have a strong motivation
to work there. Thus the pool of applicants may be heavily
biased towards observant Jews, and so no hiring bias is
necessary in order to have a large number of observant Jews
working there.
Peter.
--
pir...@ktb.net
Annika1980
>to make jump to conclusions that are flat-out wrong.
That reminds me of the elderly Jewish man who was struck by a cab in
NYC. A cop nearby saw the hit and run and attempted to comfort the old
man as he lay in the street. While waiting on the ambulance to arrive,
the cop tried engaging the old man in conversation so he wouldn't pass
out.
The cop asked, "So tell me, what business are you in, sir?"
The old man replied, "I own a jewelry business across the street."
Seeing the old man's pain, the police officer then took off his own
jacket and placed it under the old man's head.
"Are you comfortable?" the cop asked.
"Eh, it's a living," the old man replied.
Nikon User
"Neil Harrington" <n...@home.today> wrote:
> > I have never heard a Jew complain about Christians that close their
> > businesses on Sundays.
>
> Ever heard of Christians closing their businesses for several days or
> a week at a time, for religious reasons?
Several days, yes; a week, no.
But normally, businesses owned by observant Jews are closed for the two
days of Rosh Hashannah and the day of Yom Kippur, but are open during
the week in between. If a business closes for the entire period, it's
still only a week and a half, not for most of the month as some people
here have said.
And if they do close for that entire ten-day period, what is the big
deal?
This is not like "blue laws" where the *government* *forces* the
businesses to close.
ASAAR
> "Are you comfortable?" the cop asked.
It just happened that that line was at the bottom of my
newsreader's window. But before I scrolled down for the rest, I
*knew* what the next line would be, thanks to an uncle with a near
limitless supply of those oldies. I think he said "Eh, I make a
living.", as he'd turn his two hands palms up, tilt his head and
shrug his shoulders just the right way. <g>
(PeteCresswell)
>"shabbos goy"
A guy straight from the shetel was staying with a relative in New York City.
"How many Jews do you have in New York?"
"Two million"
"Oy!"
"How many gentiles do you have in New York?
"Ten Million"
"Ten *Million*"????
"Yes, ten million".
"But what *for*?"
--
PeteCresswell
Sear...@mail.con2.com
Crap...
Newsstands sell magazines for their own benefit. They don't work or
B&H. And it is irrelevant whose ads are in the mags.
As for what I saw at the Photo Expo. I'm pretty sure that one of those
guys works(or worked) in the section upstairs where they sell used
equipment.
But it makes no difference, because orthodox "law" doesn't allow for
*anyone* to work on your behalf directly or indirectly.
And it's a moot point anyway because they were handing out B&H flyers
at the B&H booth. That was no ad agency.
Don Wiss
>But normally, businesses owned by observant Jews are closed for the two
>days of Rosh Hashannah and the day of Yom Kippur, but are open during
>the week in between. If a business closes for the entire period, it's
>still only a week and a half, not for most of the month as some people
>here have said.
All businesses are open for the week in between Rosh Hashannah and the day
of Yom Kippur. The holiday that is going on now is Sukkos, which all
observe the first and last days, and most, but not all, don't work on the
days in between.
Don <www.donwiss.com> (e-mail link at home page bottom).
ASAAR
>> They may not have been directly hired by B&H. There may have been
>> an ad agency involved, so they'd be working for the agency, not for
>> B&H. I occasionally hear B&H ads on the radio. I suppose I'll now
>> be inclined to notice on which days of the week they appear. B&H
>> does advertise in magazines, and it would be unreasonable to think
>> they'd consider prohibiting newstands from selling magazines
>> containing their ads on Saturdays and religious holidays. :)
>
> Crap...
There's a lot of that around lately, usually somewhere in your
vicinity.
> Newsstands sell magazines for their own benefit. They don't work
> or B&H. And it is irrelevant whose ads are in the mags.
So what else is new? If you're trying to prove that you're
clueless you're doing an excellent job.
Darrell
"Bill in Alexandria" <BMcGovernWITHOUT TH...@cox.net> wrote in message
news:YBr6f.7385$v_5.6682@dukeread07...
>I am sympathetic to John's disappointment.
>
> company like B&H would have enough trustworthy and competent staff to
> serve its broader customer base.
>
their religion they aren't allowed to work nor cause others to work. As
observant Orthodox they can't hire Shabbat Goys.
Neil Harrington
"(PeteCresswell)" <x...@y.Invalid> wrote in message
news:i21ml11gavthoo6bq...@4ax.com...
:-)
Neil Harrington
"Nikon User" <nikon...@cox.net> wrote in message
news:nikon-user-76281...@news.west.cox.net...
> In article <iOqdnb8AGLt...@comcast.com>,
> "Neil Harrington" <n...@home.today> wrote:
>
>> > I have never heard a Jew complain about Christians that close their
>> > businesses on Sundays.
>>
>> Ever heard of Christians closing their businesses for several days or
>> a week at a time, for religious reasons?
>
> Several days, yes; a week, no.
What sort of business would close for several days?
I am not religious and had to look this up on Google: The holiest week for
Christians, particularly Catholics, is called <ahem> Holy Week. It's the
last week of Lent and includes some holy days that I never heard of before
(and I was born and raised Catholic). The only one of those days that's
actually observed as a holiday, anywhere, as far as I know, is Good Friday.
I live in one of the few states that observes Good Friday as a state holiday
(lots of Catholics here). I don't know of a single *business* that closes on
Good Friday, though there may be some for all I know, but state employees
and perhaps municipal workers get the day off or comp time.
>
> But normally, businesses owned by observant Jews are closed for the two
> days of Rosh Hashannah and the day of Yom Kippur, but are open during
> the week in between. If a business closes for the entire period, it's
> still only a week and a half, not for most of the month as some people
> here have said.
>
> And if they do close for that entire ten-day period, what is the big
> deal?
Other than inconveniencing customers, you mean?
>
> This is not like "blue laws" where the *government* *forces* the
> businesses to close.
Right. But there aren't any blue laws that force businesses to close for
several days or a week or more, so that's not a very helpful comparison.
Sheldon
"carrigman" <carr...@deathtospammershotmail.com> wrote in message
news:djd79c$gin$1...@reader01.news.esat.net...
> I'm just back from a trip to New York City where high on my agenda was a
> visit to B&H to buy a Canon lens. Off I went one morning only to find the
> store closed for the week. No word of explanation. No matter, there was
> always Adorama. So I hightailed it down to West 18th Street only to find
> myself, together with a bunch of other bemused photographers, staring at
> shuttered windows and a notice saying they too were closed for the week!
>
> All to do with a Jewish holiday, I understand. Surely they have enough
> non-Jewish employees to cater for the rest of us? I didn't see any other
> major New York stores closed for religious reasons and I think it is
> outrageous for these two firms to treat its customers like this.
>
> Ireland
I have to say I understand where John is coming from. I don't think "most"
people would expect a business to be closed for a week for a religious
holiday. That said, I respect their beliefs and their right to close in
honor of those beliefs.
Common, you've never been to a Chinese restaurant on Christmas?
The problem is that we've gotten so used to businesses that stay open 24/7
we can't believe it when one actually closes -- for any reason.
Live and learn. :-)
Neil Harrington
"John A. Stovall" <johnas...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:tn9ll113m9i2lq8pf...@4ax.com...
> On Sat, 22 Oct 2005 15:16:06 -0400, "Neil Harrington" <n...@home.today>
> wrote:
>
>>
>>"John A. Stovall" <johnas...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
>>news:lvikl1hfirdr0ue7u...@4ax.com...
>>> On Sat, 22 Oct 2005 12:20:15 +0100, "carrigman"
>>> <carr...@deathtospammershotmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>>I'm just back from a trip to New York City where high on my agenda was a
>>>>visit to B&H to buy a Canon lens. Off I went one morning only to find
>>>>the
>>>>store closed for the week. No word of explanation. No matter, there was
>>>>always Adorama. So I hightailed it down to West 18th Street only to find
>>>>myself, together with a bunch of other bemused photographers, staring at
>>>>shuttered windows and a notice saying they too were closed for the week!
>>>>
>>>>All to do with a Jewish holiday, I understand. Surely they have enough
>>>>non-Jewish employees to cater for the rest of us? I didn't see any other
>>>>major New York stores closed for religious reasons and I think it is
>>>>outrageous for these two firms to treat its customers like this.
>>>
>>> for religious reasons. It shows a quality lacking in the world of
>>> commerce today.
>>>
>>> I think the 6K I've spent with them this year will make up for your
>>> not doing business with them.
>>
>>Why, would you have reduced your purchases by the amount of the OP's if
>>they'd been open for him?
>>
>>Anyway, his complaint was about their treatment of customers, not their
>>loss
>>because he couldn't buy from them.
>
> If you don't like they way your are treated as customer take your
> trade somewhere else. Nobody makes you do business with them at the
> point of a gun but governments.
>
> I have no problems with the way B&H runs it's business and if they
> want to close all of October or what ever fine with me.
Fine with me too. I don't do business with B&H, so they can close all year
and I'm okay with it.
>
> Why do some many people out there think they deserve special
> treatment? It strikes me they are just a bunch of self centered
> whiners.
The OP wasn't expecting "special treatment." He simply made the point that
closing for several days or a week or whatever, for holidays that most
people aren't aware of and don't expect, creates inconvenience for customers
and/or those who would be customers. This annoyed him.
Since the stores in question (in fact, *all* the camera stores in NYC that
advertise nationally as far as I know) follow more or less the same practice
for the same religious reasons, this is kind of a unique situation. The
stores are doing what their proprietors believe their religion requires, and
so cannot be reasonably blamed for it. At the same time, it does create
inconvenience for customers, which I believe most of the stores' managements
are aware of and apologize for. That's really all they can do in the
circumstances.
Neil
ASAAR
>> All to do with a Jewish holiday, I understand. Surely they have enough
>> non-Jewish employees to cater for the rest of us? I didn't see any other
>> major New York stores closed for religious reasons and I think it is
>> outrageous for these two firms to treat its customers like this.
>>
>> John,
>> Ireland
> I have to say I understand where John is coming from. I don't think
> "most" people would expect a business to be closed for a week for a
> religious holiday. That said, I respect their beliefs and their right to
> close in honor of those beliefs.
Most people being unaware of those Jewish holidays can easily be
surprised by the businesses being closed for a week when they first
hear of it. But I don't think you really understand where John is
coming from, because most people (including you, it appears) would
not consider it "outrageous for these two firms to treat its
customers like this". I can understand someone being annoyed upon
finding that their time was wasted. But for John to be outraged
long after he realized that the stores were closed for religious
reasons shows that he doesn't respect their beliefs, and feels that
his convenience takes precedence over their religious beliefs. That
he was twice bit (B&H *and* Adorama) shows that there might be
something to the concept of karma after all.
Paul H.
"carrigman" <carr...@deathtospammershotmail.com> wrote in message
news:djd79c$gin$1...@reader01.news.esat.net...
> non-Jewish employees to cater for the rest of us?
Sure, religious freedom and private ownership of business are real bitches,
ain't they, boyo? Open up your own business, Carrigman, an' take St.
Paddy's day off to spite 'em. We'll all be behind you, lad.
Randy Berbaum
inventory? I have worked in various wholesale/retail locations with big
inventorys that do close for a week each year for an intense inventory. In
such a case the store would be closed and making purchases would still be
impossible. So is it only the fact that the closure was because of a
religious reason or because they were closed when you wanted to make a
purchase?
I am a night owl and frequently have the problem that when I am wishing to
go shopping, all the stores are closed due to it being 2am. Should I moan
and groan that these stores are incorrect or insensitive because they
close at night, or just put up with it. If I own a store I have the right
to set the hours and holidays as I see fit. I know of one manufacturer
here that closes for two weeks each year so that all the employees can
take a vacation at once. It may be that some of their customers or
suppliers have a problem with this policy but the manufacturer has the
right. It makes no difference why a place is closed when we wish to make a
purchase, only that it is. I would hope that there would be a way for a
retail outlet to notify potential customers well in advance of a closure
(holiday, inventory, whim, etc) so that regular customers would know to
plan accordingly.
As a regular customer of B&H I got a notice on the shipping list of a
purchase that the store would be closed nearly 2 weeks prior. And I did
see a notice posted on the web site about a week before. So I was not
suprized. I sympathize with the customer who didn't realize that a
closure was happening, and appeared at the store only to find it closed.
But to become irate because the store was closed for a religious reason as
opposed to some other cause just makes no sense to me.
JMHO
Randy
==========
Randy Berbaum
Champaign, IL
Nikon User
"Neil Harrington" <n...@home.today> wrote:
> > Several days, yes; a week, no.
>
> What sort of business would close for several days?
I know of a number of businesses that close completely from Dec 25
through Jan 1.
> > And if they do close for that entire ten-day period, what is the
> > big deal?
>
> Other than inconveniencing customers, you mean?
Well, they do let the public know that they'll be closed for the period,
so people can plan to buy from them before or after, or find a
competitor that's open.
> > This is not like "blue laws" where the *government* *forces* the
> > businesses to close.
>
> Right. But there aren't any blue laws that force businesses to close
> for several days or a week or more, so that's not a very helpful
> comparison.
Well, some people in this thread have been making the comparison, so I
decided to address it in the same message, and cut down the clutter by
one message. <g>
Tony
employees open the place on Christmas while we're at it.
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"carrigman" <carr...@deathtospammershotmail.com> wrote in message
news:djd79c$gin$1...@reader01.news.esat.net...
> I'm just back from a trip to New York City where high on my agenda was a
> visit to B&H to buy a Canon lens. Off I went one morning only to find the
> store closed for the week. No word of explanation. No matter, there was
> always Adorama. So I hightailed it down to West 18th Street only to find
> myself, together with a bunch of other bemused photographers, staring at
> shuttered windows and a notice saying they too were closed for the week!
>
> All to do with a Jewish holiday, I understand. Surely they have enough
clu...@lycos.com
>(PeteCresswell) wrote:
>
>> When's the last time anybody found stores open on Christmas Day in a
>> predominately Christian area? I've seen it, but my thought has
>> always been that somebody should get a life and just close the place
>> for that day.
>
>What's Christmas? It's just another busy shopping day for most. It's sad
>to say Christmas caved into the almighty dollar.
>Rita
I think you exaggerate. Christmas eve for sure but not Christmas day
unless you run a grocery store ;)
Wes
--
Reply to:
Whiskey Echo Sierra Sierra AT Alpha Charlie Echo Golf Romeo Oscar Paul dot Charlie Charlie
Lycos address is a spam trap.
Charlie Self
Sheldon wrote:
> I have to say I understand where John is coming from. I don't think "most"
> people would expect a business to be closed for a week for a religious
> holiday. That said, I respect their beliefs and their right to close in
> honor of those beliefs.
>
> Common, you've never been to a Chinese restaurant on Christmas?
>
> The problem is that we've gotten so used to businesses that stay open 24/7
> we can't believe it when one actually closes -- for any reason.
>
> Live and learn. :-)
I'm not religious, but I try to respect other people's religious needs
and the roads they take because of those needs.
I sent an order in to B&H last week, and will patiently wait until they
can ship it when they get back in.
Another point to be made here is patience: we all seem to want what we
want when we want it. If we have to wait a week, we scream, holler,
fall down and flail our heels on the ground.
It's a symptom known as spoiled.
clu...@lycos.com
>B&H has lost some of my money because of their frequent closings.
>However, it is a privately owned buisness, which can be operated however
>its owners like, as long as they do not break the law.
>
>Personally, I would be more concerned about their hiring practices,
>which seem like they might be discriminatory on the basis of both
>ethnicity and religion. I have not met every B&H employee, but it does
>seem like all of their employees are Hasidic Jews.
>
>-Mike
Gee, imagine that. The amish roof metal guy down the road seems to
only have amish working for him. He has the best prices around all
you got to do is show up when daylight is shining. Don't expect to
call to check inventory.
Now the accounting manager working for a publicly traded company where
I used to work that only had Catholics working in his department
bothered me a bunch. Fwiw, the company president, another Catholic,
didn't seem to have a litmus test as he hired for ability and what he
could pay.
I suspect that b&h is willing to and has hired gentiles. I am also
sure they have hired hasidic jews since one tends to hire out of a
pool vouched for by the people of your social circle. I bet the
hasidic jews tend to stay longer than gentiles that find the work
hours strange at best.
Many of my brothers jobs as an electrician come from leads obtained
from members of his church. Was that discrimination or discrimination?
Wes
ps
For those that don't get english:
Discrimination
1. The act of discriminating.
2. The ability or power to see or make fine distinctions;
discernment.
3. Treatment or consideration based on class or category rather
than individual merit; partiality or prejudice: racial discrimination;
discrimination against foreigners.
SMS
> Obviously you have not been to any moslem countries :)
> Try looking for a local delicacy during the month of Ramadhan and I can say
> to you .. good luck :D
Or to Israel, where during Passover, there are long lines at the
Arab-owned bakeries. They bring the bread out to your car, in order to
prevent double-parking, so traffic doesn't become even worse.
SMS
> Per carrigman:
>
>>I think it is
>>outrageous for these two firms to treat its customers like this.
>
>
> predominately Christian area? I've seen it, but my thought has always been
> that somebody should get a life and just close the place for that day.
Not stores, but Chinese restaurants are very busy on Christmas day, with
non-Christian customers. It's almost a Jewish tradition to eat Chinese
food on Christmas day.
SMS
> On Sat, 22 Oct 2005 09:09:13 -0400, Charles <for...@mac.com> wrote:
>
>
>>The other major stores in New York are open because most Jews are not
>>of that Orthodox persuasion like most of those employed at B&H and
>>Adorama. And no, they don't have enough employees who are not of that
>>Orthodox persuasion to keep the stores open.
>
>
> Actually in the Orthodox community there is a bit of disagreement about not
> working for the entire Sukkos period. All agree that they can't work at the
> beginning and end, but some feel it is okay to work in the middle. So in
> the middle days many take a middle position. They don't go into work, but
> they will do work at home. And then some do go into work on the middle
> days.
Hell, they can't even agree if legumes are okay on Passover!