Advice sorely needed
reb
stuff. I got a Dell computer about 4 months ago. It has 128 mb memory, a
40 gb drive, and two cd drives (one to write on and one to read on). A
little background first.
My wife and I have slides from the time we were married (almost 48
years), and old black and white pictures from our folks, dating back to the
1920's. My wife wanted to get pictures made of selected slides to make up
nice photo albums for enjoyment and family history. Well, she took some
slides to the drug store to have pictures made, and found the cost to be
prohibitive since she has at least a thousand selected. A friend suggested
we get a scanner and good printer and make our own. After reading all I
could find about scanners in computer magazines, I selected an Epson 1240
with an adapter for slides, and an Epson 875 printer. Don't know if that
was a good selection or not, but it is what I have.
I thought this scanning and printing would be a snap, but I quickly
learned that there is a whole lot to know, and that I knew nothing at all.
I scanned a few slides using 100 as the resolution. I learned to crop them,
adjust the color, contrast and brightness. I saved them as JPG files, which
I have recently read in here is wrong. Anyway, they looked pretty good on
the screen, but when I printed them, they were way too small. So I went
back on each of the JPG files and resized the pictures. They look terrible
on the screen, but print some larger, but don't look very good. I knew I
was doing something wrong, and went to the library for books on Adobe
PhotoDeluxe. The only one they had was one of the "Dummies" books. I don't
like the way it is written, but it is better than nothing (at least the
"dummies" title is appropriate).
I don't quite understand the concept of resolution, ppi, and dpi; and I
know that I don't understand layers. But I changed my slide scanning to 300
which seemed to improve things. I want to print pictures about 4 X 6 and a
few at 5 X 7, but they still don't look good.
So I am looking for a little advice please.
1. What resolution should I use for scanning slides and what for black and
white pictures?
2. I would like a recommendation on a good easily understood book geared
to a completely new person with this scanning and printing stuff.
3. Adobe Photoshop 5-LE also came with the scanner, but I have not
installed it. Would I be better to use the Photoshop instead of the
PhotoDeluxe?
I know I am going to have to rescan all the slides and photos that I have
done so far (over 100) and I want to do it right this time. So, any advice
and any hints that you professionals would be willing to pass on concerning
scanning and printing both the color slides and the black and white photos
would be sincerely appreciated.
Sorry this is so long and I hope that I am not asking too much, but I
really do need help. Thank you in advance for any advice you care to give.
Sincerely, Bob
Frank
all of your questions.
Frank
www.photo-info.com
"reb" <cactu...@mindspring.com> wrote in message
news:9a1r2b$8q9$1...@nntp9.atl.mindspring.net...
R. Knol
picture resolution for this is 300 pixels per inch (ppi). For this picture
you need 1200 x 1800 pixels.
A slide is 24 mm x 36 mm which is 0.94 x 1.42 inch. This means 0.94 inch
should be 1200 pixels, that is 1277 pixels per inch. Rounded to 1200 ppi.
So you should scan the slides at a resolution of 1200 ppi, which the highest
resolution for your scanner.
I talked about an end resolution of 300 ppi, this is not the printer
resolution, but the image resolution. One image pixel is several printer
dots, because the printer has a cartridge with a few colours. So every image
pixel is made up of a few printer dots, dependent on the number of colors in
your cartridge. You can print at 1440 dots per inch (dpi) to get a nice end
result.
To enlarge the scanned slide to 4 x 6 inch, you can use PhotoDeluxe which is
perfect for normal work. There is an option to resize the image while
keeping the filesize intact. This way the total number of pixels will be
same before and after the sizing. If the number of pixels per inch (ppi)
changes, the image size also changes.
Now the fileformat. The best format to use is the PhotoDeluxe format or a
TIFF-format. Jpeg throws information away to squeeze the file. This is a
nice format for websites, but not for photo editing. Every time you save the
file, information is thrown away.
To resume:
Scan at 1200 ppi (the maximum resolution)
Save it in PhotoDeluxe or TIFF format
Rezise it, while keeping the filesize (number of pixels) the same
Print it at 1440 dots per inch (or send it to www.printroom.com to get real
photo's)
Hope this helps you a bit
Roel
"reb" <cactu...@mindspring.com> schreef in bericht
news:9a1r2b$8q9$1...@nntp9.atl.mindspring.net...
R. Knol
To resume:
Roel
Mark(un-MASK)Forsyth
> I really am a newbie (a 67 year old newbie) at this scanning and printing
>stuff. I got a Dell computer about 4 months ago. It has 128 mb memory, a
>40 gb drive, and two cd drives (one to write on and one to read on). A
>little background first.
>
Well for a start, you know a LOT more than the majority of us probably
did when we started this digital imaging lark. ie. You got a decent
bucket o' bolts there with a fair bit of memory and disk...:-) Good score.
A bit of my background. About 35 years ago at school a few friends'
and I badgered a co-operative teacher into starting a camera club.
That way we could get the school to subsidise film, paper and chemicals
AND they'd teach us how to use 'em..:-) The teacher concerned was not
just interested in photographic prints but in ALL types of printing.
The upshot is that four of us STILL run, as a sometimes breaking even,
hobby a small backyardd printing house doing high quality, small runs.
When digital imaging started to creep in the learning curve was STEEP.
It started with a flatbed scanner, then a Nikon Coolscan crept in and
stayed, then Epson came out with 'photo quality printers' then
someone came out with an RGB interface (serial...ho-hum..sloooow)
interface for one of our better printers at the time, then came the
need to ........AAAAARRRRRRGGGGGGHHHHH Join a digital imaging / camera
club and pick as many brains as possible....:-) There's just TOO
much to learn and everything can be done at least 3 ways depending.....
>
> So I am looking for a little advice please.
> 1. What resolution should I use for scanning slides and what for black and
>white pictures?
In general scan slides or flatbed stuff at the highest OPTICAL resolution
available and save it untouched as a tiff.
> 2. I would like a recommendation on a good easily understood book geared
>to a completely new person with this scanning and printing stuff.
THe only good book at this level that I've come across, and there MUST be
others, is Grokking the GIMP by Carey Bunks (I think andd hope). Of
course it's not geared toward photoshop or any of its variants but it
does contain a lot of pretty handy info, althoiugh it's more tilted
towards manipulation (digital darkroom work) than scanning. Scanning
gets barely a mention so you'll need something to cover that as
well.
> 3. Adobe Photoshop 5-LE also came with the scanner, but I have not
>installed it. Would I be better to use the Photoshop instead of the
>PhotoDeluxe?
I'm not a photoshop user but from what I read and hear I'd go with LE rather
than PhotoDeluxe.
>
> I know I am going to have to rescan all the slides and photos that I have
>done so far (over 100) and I want to do it right this time. So, any advice
>and any hints that you professionals would be willing to pass on concerning
>scanning and printing both the color slides and the black and white photos
>would be sincerely appreciated.
I really think that the best way is to join a local club, that way you
get face to face contact with a heap of knowledge...:-) That's just
my 2cents (Oz and therefore worthless..:-) ) worth but it's how I
coped without wasting too much paper and ink...:-)
> Sorry this is so long and I hope that I am not asking too much, but I
>really do need help. Thank you in advance for any advice you care to give.
Welcome to our hobby. It can be very frustrating and time consuming and
satisfying. make sure that the chair in front of the computer is comfortable
otherwise you'll end up with what my father used to call a 'gentlemans problem'.
Ooroo
Mark F...
> Sincerely, Bob
>
>
--
Mark F...
unMASK for e-mail
slrguy
dedicated slide/negative scanner that could provide at least 2400 dpi
resolution. This is the route that I took when I recently scanned approx.
1500 old family photos. Since you already have the Epson 1240, you will need
to scan those slides at it's max optical resolution (1200 dpi for the 1240 I
think). This is the minimum for good looking 4x6 prints. Since 35mm slides
are roughly 1" x 1.5" and the rule of thumb for printing photos is to print
at 300 dpi, it follows that a 1200 dpi scan will provide a 4x6 print if
printed at 300 dpi (1200/300=4 and 1800/300=6). If you want larger prints
than 4x6 at 300 dpi you would need to scan at a higher resolution (hence the
need for dedicated slide/neg scanners). Dedicated slide scanners generally
provide a higher image quality as well. You could also get the full version
of Photoshop (a bit expensive) and a plugin like Genuine Fractals that would
allow the resizing of images to say 8x10 from a 1200 dpi scan with very
little image degradation.
I would also recommend you save your files as "Tiff". Whereas jpg is a
lossy type format (permanently removes pixels or data from the image) the
tiff is a lossless format and preserves all the data in the original image.
Tiff will create a larger file size but you can always make a jpg from a
tiff. Scanning slides is very time consuming and I would think you would
want the best result possible for future manipulation. That 40gb drive of
yours should provide plenty of space or you could put them on a CD if you
had a CD burner.
The Epson 875 should provide very good photo quality prints.
Go to www.scantips.com for a good overview of scanning.
"reb" <cactu...@mindspring.com> wrote in message
news:9a1r2b$8q9$1...@nntp9.atl.mindspring.net...
Q
well (long-term, as a way of preserving the images for all time) or for more
casual purposes (creating a large photo album, but for archiving it would
need to be done again later)?
Personally if it were either of these options I wouldn't scan a slide or
35mm negative at anything less than 2700 dpi, to capture the film grain. If
you scan at a super-hi res you can always print a small photo from it,
whereas a lo-res scan will always be limited. There's nothing nicer than
opening a tack-sharp, richly detailed, historic photo at 8x10, 600 dpi and
seeing all the scratches and everything that's a part of it.
The good thing about this is that someone in the future will have it at a
resolution that they could work with it. Printers 20 years from now will be
able to do amazing things. The originals may still be around, but just in
case, a superb scan is the next best thing.
Just my opinion, however!
Q
reb <cactu...@mindspring.com> wrote in message
news:9a1r2b$8q9$1...@nntp9.atl.mindspring.net...
Bob Dietz
Since your post is so long, I've interspersed my answers and advice into
the quoted text. I'm a 48 year old hobbiest, who has played with various
graphics applications on various computers for the last 14 years.
reb wrote:
> I really am a newbie (a 67 year old newbie) at this scanning and printing
> stuff. I got a Dell computer about 4 months ago. It has 128 mb memory, a
> 40 gb drive, and two cd drives (one to write on and one to read on). A
> little background first.
For what you are doing you will be much happier if you have more memory -
like 256 megs. Memory is very cheap at the momemt.
> My wife and I have slides from the time we were married (almost 48
> years), and old black and white pictures from our folks, dating back to the
> 1920's. My wife wanted to get pictures made of selected slides to make up
> nice photo albums for enjoyment and family history. Well, she took some
> slides to the drug store to have pictures made, and found the cost to be
> prohibitive since she has at least a thousand selected. A friend suggested
> we get a scanner and good printer and make our own. After reading all I
> could find about scanners in computer magazines, I selected an Epson 1240
> with an adapter for slides, and an Epson 875 printer. Don't know if that
> was a good selection or not, but it is what I have.
Other than the limited size of it's output, you should find the printer
to be adequate. (Unless you're really fussy, you'll probably be amazed
at how good it is.) I've never scanned slides, but would guess that
you'll find the scanner to be tolerable for the slides.
You'll find it's perfect for the black and whites.
> I thought this scanning and printing would be a snap, but I quickly
> learned that there is a whole lot to know, and that I knew nothing at all.
> I scanned a few slides using 100 as the resolution. I learned to crop them,
> adjust the color, contrast and brightness. I saved them as JPG files, which
> I have recently read in here is wrong. Anyway, they looked pretty good on
> the screen, but when I printed them, they were way too small. So I went
> back on each of the JPG files and resized the pictures. They look terrible
> on the screen, but print some larger, but don't look very good. I knew I
> was doing something wrong, and went to the library for books on Adobe
> PhotoDeluxe. The only one they had was one of the "Dummies" books. I don't
> like the way it is written, but it is better than nothing (at least the
> "dummies" title is appropriate).
My sister refuses to read anything that calls her a "dummy."
> I don't quite understand the concept of resolution, ppi, and dpi; and I
> know that I don't understand layers. But I changed my slide scanning to 300
> which seemed to improve things. I want to print pictures about 4 X 6 and a
> few at 5 X 7, but they still don't look good.
The term resolution, means different things in different contexts.
Old style, printing press people talk about "lines of resolution" and mean
how many fine, little black lines they can squeeze into an inch of white
paper before the ink starts to munge together and the seperate lines
become an indistinguishable blob. Newer printing press people talk about
"lines of resolution" and ussually mean a number used in a postscript
file. Digital Camera people ussually mean the total number of pixels
(Picture elements) in a digital image and describe it either in terms
of xxxx by yyyy (640x480, 1024x800 ...) or mega-pixels - a marketing
term which roughly corresponds to multplying the two numbers and
dividing by a thousand.
I suggest you ignore the term "resolution" when ever possible.
PPI and DPI are the important concepts to understand. Before
we get into that though, you should understand that where your
scanning software is using the term "resolution" you should be
thinking "PPI"
PPI means Pixels per Inch. Get out a loupe or a good magnifing glass
and look at your computer monitor. See how the picture is made up
of little square (actually rectangular) dots in a grid. Each one of those
dots is a Pixel. Each one of those pixels can be any of more than
16,000,000 colors. How many pixels are being squeezed onto the
surface of your monitor is adjustable. To find out what you current
setting is do the following.
1. Click the "START" button with your mouse.
2. Select "Settings" and then "Control Panel"
3. Double click on "Display"
4. Select the "Settings" tab.
5. In the lower right of the dialog you'll see the label
"Screen area" and a slider. If you move the slider
to the right more pixels are squeezed onto the display.
Below the slider you'll see the current number of pixels
6. While you are in this dialog, make sure Colors is set to
either "True Color (32 bit)" or "True Color (24 bit)".
Depending on the graphics card in your computer you
may not see "True Color (32 bit)". That doesn't matter
much except to play games.
Now that you know how many pixels wide and high your monitor is set
to, you could measure with a ruler and calculate the number of PPI
along its width and the number of PPI along its height.
Now lets talk about DPI. Your printer is rated at 1440x720 DPI.
DPI stands for "Dots per Inch" If you do a little math you'll find
that for a 6x4 photo thats 8640 by 2880 dots. Wow, thats a lot
more dots than the pixels makes up your computer screen!
But those dots can only be one of 6 colors and the pixels on
your screen can be one of more than 16,000,000 colors.
To attempt to represent most of those 16,000,000 colors with just
six colors of ink the computer/printer uses groups of dots to represent
just one pixel. It's kind of like impressionist art.
You don't need 8640 by 2880 pixels to make a decent looking 6x4 photo
on your printer. But you do need more pixels than will fit on your screen.
A good rule of thumb is that you will need at least 150 PPI for an
acceptable photo and you'll probably get a better photo at 240 PPI.
If you have more than 240 PPI it won't make the print look any worst,
but it won't make it look any better either and will take considerably
longer to print.
> So I am looking for a little advice please.
> 1. What resolution should I use for scanning slides and what for black and
> white pictures?
Depends on the maximum size you want to print them at. I don't know
the dimensions of a slide - lets just say it is 1.15 inchs by 1 inches.
If you want to print at 6 x 4 inches and you want the best quality with
your printer then you'll need ( width of output / width of slide ) x 240 PPI
or 6 / 1.15 x 240 = 1252. Alternately (height of output / height of slide) x 240 PPI
or 4 / 1 x 240 = 960. Since 1252 is the large than 960, use 1252.
Your choices in the scanner software are probably 1200 or 1800 and
1800 is really overkill so use 1200.
> 2. I would like a recommendation on a good easily understood book geared
> to a completely new person with this scanning and printing stuff.
You're probably better off looking for tutorials on the web. Use the
www.google.com search engine. Do searches like
tutorial photoshop "black and white photo" restore
tutorial paintshop "color photo" enhance
(Note how I've enclosed "black and white photo" in quotes so that the
whole phrase has to be found.)
> 3. Adobe Photoshop 5-LE also came with the scanner, but I have not
> installed it. Would I be better to use the Photoshop instead of the
> PhotoDeluxe?
Photoshop 5 LE is much better than PhotoDeluxe. But Photoshop 5 LE
has a major flaw in that it only allows you to undo just the very last
thing you've done. You won't be sorry if you get either PhotoShop Elements
or PaintShop Pro 7.0. I prefer Paintshop but you your Photoshop 5 LE
qualifies you for a discount on Elements. Both of these programs have
multiple level undo. You can download a thirty day free trial of each from
the web. Be warned though the PaintShop is 28 megs and Elements is 52 megs
so this will take a long, long time unless you have Cable or DSL internet.
> I know I am going to have to rescan all the slides and photos that I have
> done so far (over 100) and I want to do it right this time. So, any advice
> and any hints that you professionals would be willing to pass on concerning
> scanning and printing both the color slides and the black and white photos
> would be sincerely appreciated.
> Sorry this is so long and I hope that I am not asking too much, but I
> really do need help. Thank you in advance for any advice you care to give.
> Sincerely, Bob
Hope this helps.
Big Bob
You've gotten lots of advice, and it may take a while to absorb (it always
does where resolution is involved), but in the meantime the simplest
effective way is for you to:
Install the Photoshop LE, it is vastly better than Photodeluxe. Expect to
take a while to learn your way around it.
Scan the slides at the highest optical resolution for your printer, which is
1200 dpi. You can scan directly into Photoshop by using File...import...and
selecting your scanner. Don't use any "scaling" the scanner driver may
offer. The image will transfer directly to Photoshop.
Click on "image...size", make sure the 'resample' box is unchecked, and in
the height or width box type in (in inches) how wide or high you want the
photo to print; the other dimension and resolution will change accordingly.
DO NOT worry about it being 300 dpi, that's more than you need, just leave
it as it is. You should easily be able to go to 5x7" if that's what you
need. Click OK.
Save the image as a .tif file. Leave the image open in Photoshop.
Click Image...adjust...brightness/contrast and make any needed adjustments
if it's too dark or light. Don't save it.
At this point, you can print it, though you will get one image per page.
Make sure you select the right paper...I would suggest Epson photo quality
inkjet paper or Epson heavyweight matte paper until you figure everything
out. Click print...click the printer properties button, choose
custom...advanced (button), select the right paper, 1440 dpi, ICM, error
diffusion dithering (if available), OK, and print.
The prints should look similar to what you see on your monitor. If they're
way off, set your contrast to maximum and lower the brightness somewhat
until they look similar, and use this setting when you're scanning and
adjusting the other photos.
There are many ways to streamline this...multiple photos on a page, saving
the printer settings, and many more adjustments, but at least you should be
able to get a good photo by doing the above.
Big Bob
"reb" <cactu...@mindspring.com> wrote in message
news:9a1r2b$8q9$1...@nntp9.atl.mindspring.net...
macro121
almost certain to be in varying conditions -- scratches, dust, etc. --
you'd save yourself a tremendous amount of time and effort if you get a
dedicated film scanner with ICE technology. Read this for details and
examples:
http://www.steves-digicams.com/2001_reviews/nikon_coolscan4000.html
You can even buy an auto slide feeder to make your life that much easier:
just pop in a slide, wait for the scan, then save as TIFF and move on to
the next one. The only disadvantage is the price, but if the Nikon 4000 is
too expensive, Nikon and Minolta have entry-level models that have multiple
feeders and the time-saving ICE technology that start well under $1000.
The time saved in wrestling with Photoshop will be well worth the
investment.
"reb" <cactu...@mindspring.com> wrote in
<9a1r2b$8q9$1...@nntp9.atl.mindspring.net>:
John Carter
wrote:
> My wife and I have slides from the time we were married (almost 48
>years), and old black and white pictures from our folks, dating back to the
>1920's.
Key word here is "slides". You need a film/slide scanner with
sufficient resolution to properly scan the small originals. When
scanning prints, you will typically print at a size close to the
original, so a 300dpi scanner and a 300 dpi printer can reproduce the
200dpi resolution of the print. A slide has very high resolution, but
the image is so small that a page scanner cannot extract the level of
image information needed for a print.
There is a fairly new film/slide scanner from Pacific Image, the
1800U. It uses a USB connection and has 1800 dpi (dots per inch)
resolution (about 4.2megapixels for the 24x36mm slide area). This is
only 2/3 of the Nikon film/slide scanner's 2700 lpi resolution, but
the price is a LOT less than the Nikon: the 1800U is only $190 at
CompUSA. I haven't tried it, but the specs look good.
David Chien
> with an adapter for slides, and an Epson 875 printer. Don't know if that
> was a good selection or not, but it is what I have.
A $300 Minolta Scan Dual dedicated slide scanner would have been the far better
choice. Slide scanners get far better detail and color range than flatbed
scanners at the consumer level.
VueScan or SilverFast may improve your scans to some degree above and beyond
what you already have with the scanner software.
> 1. What resolution should I use for scanning slides and what for black and
> white pictures?
Depends totally upon desired output size and detail level.
eg. 200-600dpi is 'sufficient' for most prints of any size.
Let's say you want a 300dpi 4x6" photo print. Do the math:
300dpi * 4 x 300dpi * 6 = 1200x1800 image to be scanned in.
Similarly at 600dpi for a 4x6" print, that's 600*4" x 600* 6" = 2400 x 3600
image.
Of course, if you want a bigger print, let's say 8x10" at 300dpi quality, then
it's
300dpi * 8 x 300dpi * 10 = 2400 x 3000 size image to be scanned in (something
most slide scanners can easily do).
You should do some tests with one slide to see at what dpi is sufficient for
you. Some people can't see the fine points at 200dpi, others require 600+dpi in
order to get the level of detail and quality on 4x6" prints that they desire.
In any case, if in doubt, just scan for a 2000x3000+ image and you can always
resize smaller later. (However that poor flatbed scanner will poop out in terms
of resolving capabilities well before you get up to that level of resolution,
and you may find that scanning higher than, let's say 600dpi (which is the
physical limitation of the dual 600dpi CCD sensor layout, which is used to fake
a true 1200dpi CCD sensor array and it's nice to know customers aren't getting
what the box says) won't get you any more detail than is possible with the
flatbed scanner.
Switching over to a slide scanner will get you even more detail; as will doing
commercial drum scans at even greater costs.
You need to know this because if there is an important slide or two that has so
much detail that just doesn't seem to want to be scanned in by the flatbed,
you'll know to turn to commercial scanning or a slide scanner to get those
details off the slides.
> 2. I would like a recommendation on a good easily understood book geared
> to a completely new person with this scanning and printing stuff.
Can't think of one. Guess I'll have to write one ;)
Anyways, usual workflow for scanning slides on a flatbed.
1. Clean slides. Dust = touchup time = bad scans. Professional photo shops
have the liquid cleaners and dust blowers you should use.
2. Preview scan. Adjust scans for the proper gray scale balance and contrast
range.
Don't want the highlights to blow out and possess no details; nor too dark so
the shadows go to pot. Balanced is the word here. Adjust settings as needed.
The histogram is your friend and Photoshop will let you see the range of
colors covered. Don't want the histogram to be too compressed, nor so wide it
is chopped off.
3. Final scan at desired output resolution.
4. Touchup of dust and markings on slide in Photoshop.
5. Adjustment of contrast and colors as needed.
6. Save as high quality JPEG or TIFF.
Depending on how clean you want each image to be, how much touchup work needs to
be done, etc, expect up to an hour per slide at high resoluiton (ie. 2000x3000+
image sizes) to complete the editing.
-----
A high-resolution digicam like the Nikon 990 fitted with a slide copier
attachment may provide sufficient resolution and image quality to make
everything go much faster. SImple snap a photo, insert next slide, and
continue.
Again, depends on how good is good enough for your needs.
> 3. Adobe Photoshop 5-LE also came with the scanner, but I have not
> installed it. Would I be better to use the Photoshop instead of the
> PhotoDeluxe?
Yes. The Full version is even better, but you may not need it at all.
d =)
William Lawrence
You've gotten a lot of good advice in the replies so far. If you wish to do a
little browsing, I have a site about image editing of old photos. It's aimed at
old prints primarily, but once the photos are in the computer there are many
similar issues. The URL is:
http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~wflawrence/index.htm
Cheers!
Bill
reb
a good deal of time and thought to
enter all that information. I really do appreciate it.
There is so much information and advice that I have not yet absorbed, but
I have saved the notes, and will study them and I hope will be able to
understand them.
Again, thanks - I am certain that this will be helpful.
Sincerely, Bob
Q
reb <cactu...@mindspring.com> wrote in message
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