Re: Epson R1800 Continuous Ink System
Paul Furman
Arthur Entlich wrote:
> Gordon MacPherson wrote:
>
>> Have just acquired a R1800 - great prints with Epson inks. I Had a
>> bad experience with E-compatible ink for the Photo Stylus 870. Am I
>> wise to stay away from similar inks for the R1800 - prices are SO
>> attractive!
> You might want to consider the R1800 substitute inks from Media Street
> inks and Image Specialists. Reports have been good for color matching
> and clog resistance. I can't comment of fade resistance, however, and
> your mileage may vary.
I'm interested in this topic because I'd like a continuous ink system, I
DO want the best quality and longevity but it just seems silly changing
carts so often, and many times it will run out of ink in the middle of a
print which may sometimes show a line when it attempts to recover.
Does anyone have experience with this system below?
Media Street Continuous Ink System and Set of 7 4oz Bulk Ink Bottles,
for the Epson R1800 Inkjet Printer.
$239.95 at adorama.com
measekite
Paul Furman wrote:
> Replying from a similar thread... see below
>
> Arthur Entlich wrote:
> > Gordon MacPherson wrote:
> >
> >> Have just acquired a R1800 - great prints with Epson inks. I Had a
> >> bad experience with E-compatible ink for the Photo Stylus 870. Am I
> >> wise to stay away from similar inks for the R1800 - prices are SO
> >> attractive!
>
> > You might want to consider the R1800 substitute inks from Media Street
> > inks and Image Specialists. Reports have been good for color matching
> > and clog resistance. I can't comment of fade resistance, however, and
> > your mileage may vary.
>
>
> I'm interested in this topic because I'd like a continuous ink system,
> I DO want the best quality and longevity but it just seems silly
> changing carts so often, and many times it will run out of ink in the
> middle of a print which may sometimes show a line when it attempts to
> recover.
>
> Does anyone have experience with this system below?
If that is the case you should buy another epson that has larger
cartridges. I think that the 3800 or 4800 is one of those machines.
But the very best is the Canon 5000 pigmented ink printer. It is
designed for professionals.
frederick
>
>
> If that is the case you should buy another epson that has larger
> cartridges. I think that the 3800 or 4800 is one of those machines.
> But the very best is the Canon 5000 pigmented ink printer. It is
> designed for professionals.
>>
IMHO the HP Z2100 and 3100 are in a class well above the ipF5000.
frederick
AFAIK none of the 3rd party _pigment_ inks have gloss levels as good as
OEM. Some third party are dye based - surely negating one of the
reasons for owning the R1800 - print longevity.
Also, unless the 3rd party supplier offers good ICC profiles for the
papers that you want to use, then purchasing custom profiles or
equipment to make your own might be needed to meet your quality
expectations.
IMO, selling the R1800 and buying a 3800 would be a better solution -
saving about 35% on ink cost. Purchase price includes about >$500 worth
of ink at R1800 prices.
Epson charge $9.00 for R1800 (identical PX-G cartridges) in Japan. Much
less than US prices, less than half of price in Europe. I bet that they
don't have a "problem" with 3rd party and CIS in Japan. Ask them why
the big difference. They won't answer me - but perhaps if enough people
ask...
Paul Furman
> Paul Furman wrote:
>
>> Continuous Ink System and Set of 7 4oz Bulk Ink Bottles,
>> for the Epson R1800 Inkjet Printer.
>> $239.95 at adorama.com
>
>
> Paul et al
>
> You might like "inkjetart.com" better. They have great information
> and support.
Thanks! ...but when I dig around the links there for continuous ink
systems, I end up here: http://www.inkalike.com/cis/
Which suggests they don't sell the system any more (?) and I don't see
the Epson R1800 listed as a model they support.
Am I just not digging deep enough or missing something?
tomm42
On Jan 29, 7:42 pm, frederick <l...@sea.com> wrote:
> measekite wrote:
>
> > If that is the case you should buy another epson that has larger
> > cartridges. I think that the 3800 or 4800 is one of those machines.
> > But the very best is the Canon 5000 pigmented ink printer. It is
> > designed for professionals.As are Epson and HP pigment ink printers.
> IMHO the HP Z2100 and 3100 are in a class well above the ipF5000.
Why do you say that have ipf5000, has been a super printer right out
of the box. The HPs I don't believe are available in the US yet. The
HP B9180 has had a lot of teething problems.
Just think it is fantasic to have a choice of printers from Canon,
Epson and HP that are as good, if not better than chemical prints (way
past the life of chemical prints). Have an old Epson 9000 that using
was a chore, the Canon works very well.
Tom
measekite
directly compare to the Canon IPF5000. I do not know about the Z2100 as
I have not read any reviews but the results of Luminous tests of the
IPF5000 for 6 months say they are very close.
Competition
An obvious question to ask is – what's the direct competition to the
Z3100 / 24"? At the moment, only the Epson 7800, though there are
rumours of a 24" 12 ink Canon iPF6000 some time in the first half of the
year. The Epson has been a benchmark for some time, but in terms of
features it now comes second to the HP due to the latter's self
profiling capability, Gloss Enhancer, and particularly not having to
swap black inks on the HP when changing media types.
Since I've been printing heavily with the 17" Canon iPF5000 for the past
six months, a question that's bound to be asked is – how do they
compare, and given than the Canon is 2.5X less expensive, is it a better
deal?
As far as print quality goes, the Canon and the HP are very close. I
wouldn't choose one over the other on this basis alone. Of course the
iPF5000 is a 17" printer, while the Z3100 is a 24". This makes a huge
difference in the size of print that one can make, though it doesn't
sound like that much when comparing numbers alone. The fact that the HP
has the built-in profiling spectrophotometer means that one would have
to spend another $1,250 or more to equal it in capability, though even
then not in convenience.
Yes, the Canon has a paper cassette, but its use is limited in terms of
the types of papers that can be sheet fed from it, so that's not as big
a differentiator as one might at first imagine. Size is a factor, with
the iPF5000 being quite large and heavy, but still able to be table
mounted. The Z3100 is definitely designed to be floor standing on its
provided pedestal.
Finally, for those printing on glossy and semi-gloss papers the Gloss
Enhancer in the HP printer is a big plus when compared against the Canon
offering. And, let's not even talk about documentation and ease of use.
The HP is streets ahead of the Canon in this regard.
________________________________________________________
The Bottom Line
If you've gotten this far in the review you'll have gathered that I'm
mightily impressed with the HP Z3100. The company appears to have really
sweated the details and produced what can only be called an absolutely
brilliant printer. Truly state of the art.
And while the price may appear to be higher than the competition, when
you factor in the built-in profiling spectrophotometer, 40GB hard drive
and web server, along with 12 inks, 4 simultaneous blacks, and a Gloss
Enhancer, the value for the money is clearly there. And in any event, as
anyone doing production or large format printing well knows, the cost of
the printer itself is ultimately found to be small compared to the
eventual cost of the paper and ink which it uses over time.
________________________________________________________
Pricing
The Z3100 has a U.S. MSLP of $4,095 for the 24" model (the one I tested)
and $6,295 for the 44" model. The less expensive 8 ink Z2100 has a U.S.
MSLP of $3,395 for the 24" model, and $5,595 for the 44" model.
As for my opinion regarding purchasing an 8 ink Z2100 over the 12 ink
Z3100 – well, I can't see the point of the Z2100. The wider gamut,
enhanced monochrome, and gloss differential cartridge, all seem to me to
be well worth the modest incremental cost of the 3100 series.
Here is the link to the full test from the Luminous Landscape on the
Canon IPF 5000
http://luminous-landscape.com/reviews/printers/canon-5000-terms.shtml
tomm42
On Jan 30, 11:11 am, measekite <inkysti...@oem.com> wrote:
> This is an excerpt from the Luminous Landscape on the Z3100. It does not
> directly compare to the Canon IPF5000. I do not know about the Z2100 as
> I have not read any reviews but the results of Luminous tests of the
> IPF5000 for 6 months say they are very close.
>
> Competition
>
> An obvious question to ask is - what's the direct competition to the
> Z3100 / 24"? At the moment, only the Epson 7800, though there are
> rumours of a 24" 12 ink Canon iPF6000 some time in the first half of the
> year. The Epson has been a benchmark for some time, but in terms of
> features it now comes second to the HP due to the latter's self
> profiling capability, Gloss Enhancer, and particularly not having to
> swap black inks on the HP when changing media types.
>
> Since I've been printing heavily with the 17" Canon iPF5000 for the past
> six months, a question that's bound to be asked is - how do they
> Z3100 - well, I can't see the point of the Z2100. The wider gamut,
> enhanced monochrome, and gloss differential cartridge, all seem to me to
> be well worth the modest incremental cost of the 3100 series.
>
> Here is the link to the full test from the Luminous Landscape on the
> Canon IPF 5000
>
> http://luminous-landscape.com/reviews/printers/canon-5000-terms.shtml
>
> frederick wrote:
> > measekite wrote:
>
> >> If that is the case you should buy another epson that has larger
> >> cartridges. I think that the 3800 or 4800 is one of those machines.
> >> But the very best is the Canon 5000 pigmented ink printer. It is
> >> designed for professionals.
>
> > As are Epson and HP pigment ink printers.
> > IMHO the HP Z2100 and 3100 are in a class well above the ipF5000.
I agree the Z3100 doesn't really compare to the ipf5000. The 5000 is
now $1495 (have seen it as low as $1295) in the US, big difference
between that price and $4K. The self profiling of the Z3100 certainly
ups the bar for this type of printer. My other experience with large
format printing was the Epson 9000, even with Epson inks it took a
couple of days to get a good print starting off. The Canon did gave me
a decent Photo Disc image on the first print, I was even using Ilford
paper. The gloss on Ilford Smooth Gloss is not dramatic but not bad,
with no bronzing (without an Ilford profile). This is very
encouraging, as a lot of the problem with the 9000 was the lack of
longevity of the inks, to print photos you needed an alternate ink
set. This of course presents a lot of problems.
The OP's original question about a bulk ink system for the Epson
R1800. Yes Media Street is a reputable firm and will back you with
good tech support. But you have a printer with an excellent set of
inks, changing inks means, not being able to effectively use the Epson
driver, and wasting a lot of paper trying for decent color. If Media
Street sells profiles (www.mediastreet.com) for their inks on their
papers that is your best bet. Otherwise you need to calibrate your
printer and driver to these new inks.
Tom
frederick
> This is an excerpt from the Luminous Landscape on the Z3100. It does not
> directly compare to the Canon IPF5000. I do not know about the Z2100 as
> I have not read any reviews but the results of Luminous tests of the
> IPF5000 for 6 months say they are very close.
>
If they are "mightily impressed" with a non Canon product, and merely
impressed with the Canon product, then...
frederick
monitoring nozzles and standard scalable print-head technology. Part of
the price difference is size. The other part is the built in
spectrophotometer for making profiles(sure - you can buy one separately
at a price, but having it integrated from a hardware and software POV
would be kind of nice).
Yes, the B9180 delayed launch and subsequent teething problems and
sometimes poor support have been a nightmare. That's where Canon and
Epson can leave HP behind - a $100 billion t/o company stuffing that up
so thoroughly smacks of arrogance, complacency, and all round poor
management.
It will be interesting to see what Epson do. Unsubstantiated rumour is
that they will stick with 8 colour K3 - not add colours. The plumbing
changes implemented in the R3800 seem to be effective - but a stopgap
measure. If they "fix" that properly, then I assume they have a 10
channel piezo head - one more channel than inks in existing K3 inkset.
That leaves room for glop.
Tony Polson
I'm not sure that it is fair to accuse LL of *bias*. However, the
"reviews" posted on that site are certainly anything but objective.
Some people like the simpering style of LL reviews, which never really
get down to discussing trifling details, such as performance. The
articles skate around the subject without ever actually saying
anything that is useful in the real world of photography. I find them
an intensely irritating waste of my time.
soinie
wrote:
Has anyone tried the Lyson Continuous Ink System? I have an1800 also
and would like to find a continuous ink system that gives as good or
better results as the OEM inks, but since I'm doing a lot of printing,
I wouldn't mind saving a bit of cash.
Tony Polson
I would also be interested to know. I am using the Epson R2400 with
Epson inks, and the costs are very high. Plus there is the hassle of
changing inks, which would need to be done rather less often with a
continuous flow system.
tomm42
LL has been very exacting in their descriptions of both the Canon
ipf5000 and the Epson 4800. I have learned very important info with
the Canon manual being next to useless I am glad I read the LL review.
Good comparisons to the Epson, they actually gave data on ink usage,
cost, color gamut, joys and frustrations. The review gave me all the
information I needed to know before buying.
I would suggest looking at the Canon ipf5000, the Epson 3800 or 4800
before going to bulk inks. The disadvantage of bulk ink is that you
need some way to linearize and profile papers. A good MacBeth system
costs $1500, after having used (reasonably effectively) a scanner
based profiling system the results pale in comparison to results of a
MacBeth system. There are places selling the Canon for $1295 and the
Epson 3800 for about the same. The Canon is well covered with stock
profiles from paper manufacturers. Epson has a huge choice of papers
for their machines. All these printers will be less expensive to run
and faster than desk top units.
Tom
tomm42
measekite
I find them well thought out and interesting. They are helpful. If
anything, they have had an affinity toward Epson Printers and Canon
cameras. They are directed toward very serious amateurs and
professional photographers and not most of the types that frequent this
ng. And they do not cater to many of the penny pinching kids and old
farts who frequently post here as well as the commercial plants.
measekite
I hear that the Lyson branded ink is not too bad but the price is
relatively high.
Tony Polson
wrote:
>Tony Polson wrote:
>> I'm not sure that it is fair to accuse LL of *bias*. However, the
>> "reviews" posted on that site are certainly anything but objective.
>>
>> Some people like the simpering style of LL reviews, which never really
>> get down to discussing trifling details, such as performance. The
>> articles skate around the subject without ever actually saying
>> anything that is useful in the real world of photography. I find them
>> an intensely irritating waste of my time.
>>
>>
>
>I find them well thought out and interesting. They are helpful.
As I said, some people like LL's simpering style.
>If anything, they have had an affinity toward Epson Printers and Canon
>cameras. They are directed toward very serious amateurs and
>professional photographers and not most of the types that frequent this
>ng. And they do not cater to many of the penny pinching kids and old
>farts who frequently post here as well as the commercial plants.
Sounds like you need to terminate your interest in this newsgroup. Do
it quickly, before the terrible people who post here hasten your
journey to a prematurely early grave.
And please take your snobbery with you. ;-)
Paul Furman
> measekite <inkys...@oem.com> wrote:
>
.......
>
> Sounds like you need to terminate your interest in this newsgroup.
Sorry, he's a bit of a kook from the cross-posted printer news group,
don't pay him too much mind.
Tony Polson
wrote:
>Tony Polson wrote:
That explains a lot.
People who like Ludicrous Landscape do seem to fit
a certain stereotype.
;-)
Paul Furman
> I've had the Media Street Niagra V on my Epson R1800 for a bit over a month now.
> Colors match Epson's inks exactly, IMO. Can't speak for longevity of prints. I
> had one small installation issue - no cyan - and emailed their support for help.
> I got a reply in less than an hour; the fix was an easy one, and I've had no
> problems since.
>
> One thing that's kind of neat: when you turn the printer on the first time after
> one of the ink levels shows low, it'll show refilled. I get a kick out of how
> fast a cartridge "empties" while the reservior hardly drops at all. The amount
> of printing I've done would have used about 10 cartrieges, but the level in the
> reservoirs is still above 1/2.
Thanks David. Let us know if you have any other issues. I guess
longevity is the question here.
PS I added back the cross-posting as I'm only following this thread in
rec.photo.equipment.35mm, I would have missed your message if it were
posted in another of the groups... where I hope people will continue to
benefit & contribute.
Paul Furman
Do they have something for the R1800? When I bought it I couldn't find
anyone supporting CIS on an R1800, now I'm only aware of the Media
Street system. Lyson lists only cartridges for the R1800 AFAIK.
> I hear that the Lyson branded ink is not too bad but the price is
> relatively high.
Better than Media Street? I'd imagine the ink costs will go way down
anyways, I would want to go with the better system if I went CIS.
frederick
There are some user experience with R1800 / Lyson inks / cis here:
http://www.photo-i.co.uk/BB/viewtopic.php?t=1343&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0
The photo-i forums may be a good place to search for info. The owner of
Efillink (posting as "Luk" at Photo-i) might have some reasonable direct
general information and tips on use of CIS on this printer.
soinie
wrote:
>>> Has anyone tried the Lyson Continuous Ink System? I have an1800 also
>>> and would like to find a continuous ink system that gives as good or
>>> better results as the OEM inks, but since I'm doing a lot of printing,
>>> I wouldn't mind saving a bit of cash.
>
>Do they have something for the R1800? When I bought it I couldn't find
>anyone supporting CIS on an R1800, now I'm only aware of the Media
>Street system. Lyson lists only cartridges for the R1800 AFAIK.
>
It may have recently been added:
http://www.nazdar.com/Lyson/New%20LysonContinuousInkSystemsforEpsonR800%20andR1800.htm
measekite
Lyson is a brand and has the advantages of a brand.
Andrew Haley
> I would suggest looking at the Canon ipf5000, the Epson 3800 or 4800
> before going to bulk inks. The disadvantage of bulk ink is that you
> need some way to linearize and profile papers. A good MacBeth system
> costs $1500, after having used (reasonably effectively) a scanner
> based profiling system the results pale in comparison to results of a
> MacBeth system.
This is true. I always use custom profiles for all my prints: nothing
comes close.
I've tried OEM inks on large-format Epsons, and in my experience there
are two downsides to be aware of. Firstly, gloss blacks aren't as
good: although they are very dense, the surface finish is rather matt,
so it doesn't look good next to the colours. Only Epson has the
micor-encapsulated glossy pigment black. Also, Epson inks perform
remarkably well on fairly low-grade inkjet paper (Epson Singleweight
Matte, for example) whereas the OEM inks I've tried need more
expensively coated paper to perform well.
Andrew.
Greg "_"
Andrew Haley <andr...@littlepinkcloud.invalid> wrote:
You should have done a Google on the term OEM....your using it
incorrectly.
OEM means Original Equipment Manufacturer.
That means Epson inks are the OEM inks.
--
"As democracy is perfected, the office represents, more and more closely,
the inner soul of the people. We move toward a lofty ideal. On some great
and glorious day the plain folks of the land will reach their heart's desire
at last, and the White House will be adorned by a downright moron."
- H. L. Mencken, in the Baltimore Sun, July 26, 1920.
Reality-Is finding that perfect picture
and never looking back.
Paul J Gans
>I find them well thought out and interesting. They are helpful. If
>anything, they have had an affinity toward Epson Printers and Canon
>cameras. They are directed toward very serious amateurs and
>professional photographers and not most of the types that frequent this
>ng. And they do not cater to many of the penny pinching kids and old
>farts who frequently post here as well as the commercial plants.
As an old fart who posts here I rather resent that.
But you will learn as you age.
--
--- Paul J. Gans
Paul Furman
> In [comp.periphs.printers] measekite <inkys...@oem.com> wrote:
....
>
> As an old fart who posts here I rather resent that.
>
> But you will learn as you age.
Apologies again, ignore this poster, he's a kook from the printer group,
sorry.
Tony Polson
wrote:
Paul,
Why do you feel obliged to apologise for this guy? Twice?
Tony
Paul Furman
>Paul Furman wrote:
>>Paul J Gans wrote:
>>
>>>In [comp.periphs.printers] measekite <inkys...@oem.com> wrote:
>>
>>....
>>
>>>As an old fart who posts here I rather resent that.
>>>
>>>But you will learn as you age.
>>
>>Apologies again, ignore this poster, he's a kook from the printer group,
>>sorry.
>
> Paul,
>
> Why do you feel obliged to apologise for this guy? Twice?
Oh just because I cross-posted him into these groups. This is his
favorite topic & I knew he'd be a pest. Actually he was pretty well
behaved, relatively. And to make sure noone here nibbles his troll lines.
Tony Polson
wrote:
>Tony Polson wrote:
Thank you for that, Paul.
Andrew Haley
> In article <12s3j9l...@news.supernews.com>,
> Andrew Haley <andr...@littlepinkcloud.invalid> wrote:
>> tomm42 <tmo...@wildblue.net> wrote:
>>
>> > I would suggest looking at the Canon ipf5000, the Epson 3800 or 4800
>> > before going to bulk inks. The disadvantage of bulk ink is that you
>> > need some way to linearize and profile papers. A good MacBeth system
>> > costs $1500, after having used (reasonably effectively) a scanner
>> > based profiling system the results pale in comparison to results of a
>> > MacBeth system.
>>
>> This is true. I always use custom profiles for all my prints: nothing
>> comes close.
>>
>> I've tried OEM inks on large-format Epsons, and in my experience there
>> are two downsides to be aware of. Firstly, gloss blacks aren't as
>> good: although they are very dense, the surface finish is rather matt,
>> so it doesn't look good next to the colours. Only Epson has the
>> micor-encapsulated glossy pigment black. Also, Epson inks perform
>> remarkably well on fairly low-grade inkjet paper (Epson Singleweight
>> Matte, for example) whereas the OEM inks I've tried need more
>> expensively coated paper to perform well.
> You should have done a Google on the term OEM....your using it
> incorrectly.
> OEM means Original Equipment Manufacturer.
> That means Epson inks are the OEM inks.
Oh, yes. Brain fade, I guess.
Thanks,
Andrew.
Greg "_"
Andrew Haley <andr...@littlepinkcloud.invalid> wrote:
We all have them :) Stay cool.
Joseph Miller
ink machine was famous for clogs and refill problems, but this CIS
system has performed flawlessly for years. Sometimes I don't use the
printer for weeks, but I simply turn it on, it goes through its usual
startup ritual, and then prints away with no problems. I haven't had a
clog in years. Of course I realize this isn't the R1800, but if the CIS
for that is any near as good as this one, it should be very good. I've
been thinking of getting an R1800, but really don't want to go back to
changing cartridges again, so I'm very interested to hear results from
the Mediastreet CIS with it.
Joe