Prints from unprocessed film?
Greg Miller
recently a customer that was at some sort of imaging trade show said
that he saw displayed a system that would create prints from the
latent image on unprocessed film. Does this ring a bell with anyone
or was my customer mistaking his dreams from the night before with
reality?
Greg Miller
Tom Phillips
Greg Miller wrote:
Other than some technology having the ability to detect and image the
undeveloped ionic changes in the exposed crystals, I'd say the latter.
But who knows...
Robert L.vervoordt
wrote:
This sounds like the "dry" process, recently announced for quick
printing from conventional film. The film is really developed, but
not processed any further. It is then scanned for the individual
layers and this information is used to make digital phot type prints
in an inkjet or other suitable printer. Since the film is not
bleached, fixed or stabilised, it is essentially destroyed by the
process, and no negative is available for blowups or reprints. I seem
to remember that the developer is a rapid silver forming (conventional
b&w), there is no color dye formed, and that is the end of that, for
all intents and purposes.
No free lunch or beer here, I fear. ;-{
Ken Hart
"Greg Miller" <filmr...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:55bfe96e.02110...@posting.google.com...
Copied below is a press release that I found at imaging-resource.com. I read
somewhere that test marketing has been done and well received by the public
(who apparently doesn't realize that having a negative stored away could
someday be important!-- my opinion).
Hope this answers your question.
--
Ken Hart
kwhart@aec,nu
COLOGNE, Germany--(BUSINESS WIRE)--Sept. 24, 2002--Photokina, Gretag Imaging
AG and Applied Science Fiction(TM), Inc. (ASF(TM)) announce today plans to
pursue market testing of the modular Digital PIC(TM) dry film-processing
solution.
This modular solution will be demonstrated for the first time in the ASF
stand at Photokina. Gretag Imaging is one of the world's premier suppliers
of photofinishing and imaging equipment. Applied Science Fiction is the
inventor of the Digital PIC cutting-edge digital dry film processing system,
in addition to being the leader of automatic photo restoration applications
including the award-winning Digital ICE(TM) and Digital ICE3(TM) family of
technologies.
Gretag Imaging and ASF will cooperate on the design of modular Digital PIC
photofinishing solutions aimed at the retail marketplace. In addition to the
Photokina working-system, ASF and Gretag will implement field tests at
leading European retailers' sites in Germany during the fourth quarter of
2002 and the first quarter of 2003.
The core of the Digital PIC photofinishing systems is a Digital PIC "input
station" where the consumer inserts their 35mm film for processing. In
minutes, the "input station" automatically extracts the film from its
cartridge, begins developing the film, and dispenses a receipt with a unique
roll identification code. The customer then uses the code to log-on to a
viewing station from which the processed images can be viewed, edited, and
selected for printing. A wide variety of Gretag output devices can be
connected to the system to provide both electronic and hardcopy output,
including silver halide, ink jet, and dye-sublimation printers. This
solution allows customers to develop their film, and provides workstations
for multiple users to simultaneously edit and print images quickly. With
this modular Digital PIC system, retailers can expand their current
photofinishing services or introduce on-site photo processing where they
were previously unable to due to space limitations, environmental
restrictions, low volume locations or overall cost of ownership.
"The adaptability of our Digital PIC technology offers Gretag an opportunity
to further strengthen their leadership position in the photofinishing
landscape," said Dan Sullivan, president and CEO of Applied Science Fiction.
"Integrating Digital PIC with Gretag's viewing stations and output devices
demonstrates tremendous value to the retailer. The small footprint, fast
film processing, environmental friendliness, and multiple output options
expand the ability for retailers to leverage photofinishing to increase
profitability."
"The ease in which we can connect the Digital PIC input station to existing
and planned Gretag kiosks and output devices enables considerable
flexibility," said Patrick Jung, Gretag Imaging CEO. "We are testing with
ASF the use of Digital PIC as an input station to our digital photo station
kiosk systems. These systems in turn are already capable of sending image
files for printing on Gretag Master Flex D1008 Digital Minilabs, Netprinter
Digital Printers, and high-speed dry printers using Polaroid Corporation's
Opal technology, dye-sub, and inkjet technologies. For some retailers, the
Digital PIC input station would be a logical incremental investment to
complement services already offered through Gretag products. For others who
have not yet transitioned to digital, we can tailor a complete digital
solution to a particular retailer's requirements."
Expected commercial availability of the system, if successful in test
markets, is targeted for 2003.
Digital PIC Process
ASF's Digital PIC technology develops 35mm film directly into a
high-resolution RGB digital format in one quick step. Micro-amounts of a
proprietary developing agent are applied to a roll of exposed but
undeveloped film as it is fed through the processor's image-capture engine.
The environmentally friendly Digital PIC process requires no water,
generates no hazardous effluents, and makes complete silver recovery
possible. Next, the Digital PIC system makes a digital record of each image.
Once the image data is captured, color data and exposure settings are
established on a pixel-by-pixel basis for each element of every image.
Complete 24-exposure roll development is accomplished in approximately seven
minutes after the film is fed into the image-capture engine.
Digital PIC creates a unique DigiPIX(TM) digital negative CD. The DigiPIX CD
offers consumers tremendous flexibility for communicating with images. The
CD includes an index-print file plus high-, medium- and low-resolution image
files that provide the consumer a convenient avenue to share their images in
many ways. Digital PIC allows for consistent image quality, and is Internet
and Broadband ready. Configurations for Digital PIC technology include photo
kiosks, microlabs, back office workstations, back labs, and quick print
stations.
About Gretag, The Imaging Company
The Gretag Imaging Group, which is headquartered in Regensdorf, Switzerland,
is one of the world's premier suppliers of photofinishing and imaging
equipment and systems. The Group's products and services range from minilabs
and central labs equipment, to Internet applications. Facilities are located
in Switzerland, Italy, the United States, and Canada, with sales and service
organizations located throughout the world. Gretag is listed on the Swiss
Exchange (GIGN), and employs approximately 1,300 employees worldwide. More
information can be found on Gretag's Web site at www.gretag.com.
About ASF
Applied Science Fiction develops proprietary technologies for the imaging
industry that link traditional photography with the digital age. ASF
licenses its branded technologies through Original Equipment Manufacturers
(OEMs) that provide products for the professional and consumer imaging
markets. ASF also directly distributes Adobe® Photoshop® compatible plug-ins
for automatic image correction and enhancement. More information can be
found on ASF's Web site at www.asf.com.
All trade names, trademarks and registered trademarks are the property of
their respective owners.
Richard Knoppow
"Ken Hart" <kwh...@aec.nu> wrote in message
news:aq3lno$27t$1...@news.chatlink.com...
I doesn't sound like the original film survives this
process, only the scan produced. Do you know if that's the
case? If so, its going to disappoint a lot of people.
--
---
Richard Knoppow
Los Angeles, CA, USA
dick...@ix.netcom.com
Tom Phillips
Ken Hart wrote:
> I read somewhere that test marketing has been done and well received by the
> public
> (who apparently doesn't realize that having a negative stored away could
> someday be important!-- my opinion).
Well, when they make "complete silver recovery" sound like it's going to save
the world from toxic waste and the average snapshootist has no idea pixels in
the long term aren't worth the 1's and 0's they're copied from...
It's unlikely the companies marketing this technology are going to actually
inform otherwise photo-ignorant consumers that the cost of a roll of film means
that film is worth keeping.
Ken Burns
"Richard Knoppow" <dick...@ix.netcom.com> wrote in message
news:aq48td$31b$1...@slb0.atl.mindspring.net...
> Long press release snipped...
> I doesn't sound like the original film survives this
> process, only the scan produced. Do you know if that's the
> case?
That's correct, Richard. I, myself, can't figure out what is gained in the
end with this process. It seems to me that the few minutes time that this
process gains is far outweighed by the loss of the original negs.
KB
Craig Schroeder
wrote:
I believe the market they're going after is in the self-service kiosk
area. No employees (on-sight) needed and the snapshooter walks away
with only the prints they desire and a digital file. Doesn't interest
me but I can see that there is likely some consumer interest to be
teased with it.
Ken Hart
"Ken Burns" <kenb...@twave.net> wrote in message
news:usbentb...@corp.supernews.com...
seconds that the customer waits at the counter for their food. To the
average consumer, the "few minutes time" is exactly what is gained. Some of
us who strangely enjoy spooling a roll of film onto a reel, making sure that
all the chemicals are at the right temp...etc, find having the negatives a
very important part of the creative process.
--
Ken Hart
kwhart@aec,nu
Robert L. Vervoordt
wrote:
>
The three layers are scanned by depth controlled lasers, an omission
in the press release, and are rendered developable in full. This
means that subsequent color development will result in a reversal dye
image in color and a BW negative image coexisting in the same frame.
Now, that's a mess to sort out.
It didn't have to be that way. If the negatives were just fixed out,
or developed with a hot gel monobath, the remaining silver could be
rehalogenated by any known method, after scanning to be redeveloped
chromogenically and finished to provide negatives, too. Then again,
the film could have been developed in a color monobath in the first
place and there would be a real color negative from the get-go.
This, of course would take more time and cost more. Implicit in
offering this service, would be that negatives were really a
worthwhile thing and call into question the whole rationale of the
unnecesarily destructive process being touted in the first place.
They call this "digital", don't they? Maybe if they could call the
"rescued" negatives "digital" also, they could charge even more and
laugh a lot more on the way to the bank.
(C) 2002 - Robert L. Vervoordt
That's just in case one of them is lurking and wants to steal the
method, above.
Oops! they already call it "digital".:
>ASF's Digital PIC technology develops 35mm film directly into a
>high-resolution RGB digital format in one quick step.
Now, I wonder how one would "develop" film to a "digital" format? Do
they remove steps in the tonal range?
>Micro-amounts of a
>proprietary developing agent are applied to a roll of exposed but
>undeveloped film as it is fed through the processor's image-capture engine.
>The environmentally friendly Digital PIC process requires no water,
>generates no hazardous effluents, and makes complete silver recovery
>possible.
The claims seem not to be new or dramatic. The wording is, though.
>Next, the Digital PIC system makes a digital record of each image.
>Once the image data is captured, color data and exposure settings are
>established on a pixel-by-pixel basis for each element of every image.
>Complete 24-exposure roll development is accomplished in approximately seven
>minutes after the film is fed into the image-capture engine.
Here the press release leaves out the details about the destructive
selective depth scanning of the rrest of the image. It adds
gobbledygook about data and pixels, seemingly in an effort to confuse
things. The telling detail is in the last sentence where the process
is described as taking seven (7) minutes.
Richard, doesn't this seem close to conventional rapid access time?
Add in some kind of high speed scanner, and wouldn't it be possible to
do the same thing without destroying the negative?
The only problem with doing it the way it has been done before is that
there is no way to make it proprietary and charge a lot.
>Digital PIC creates a unique DigiPIX(TM) digital negative CD. The DigiPIX CD
>offers consumers tremendous flexibility for communicating with images. The
>CD includes an index-print file plus high-, medium- and low-resolution image
>files that provide the consumer a convenient avenue to share their images in
>many ways.
What is this, another form of proprietary file format? Looks to be
unnecessary as well.
Thanks to Ken Hart for the press release.
Comments. any one?
Lee Carmichael Jr
similar to what is being talked about here. It is exposed in an imagesetter
The one I am familar with is called the Oasis by ECRM. Kodak sells the
processor also and the same assumtion as above applies. The film and the
processor all work on heat. The film comes out dry and developed and is a
negative. It takes about a minute. It is a pretty expensive process but
last I heard it had the EPA's blessing. (?) The only thing weird about it
is the film is sorta bluegreen not gray.
lee\c
"AC/DCdude17" <Je...@prontoREMOVETHISmail.com> wrote in message
news:3DC6243E...@prontoREMOVETHISmail.com...
> X-No-Archive: Yes
>
> Complete silver recovery at the expense of destroyed negatives and only
> can do black and white.
> Talk about pointless!
>
> You use film if you want to keep the negatives. Something like this is
> what digital cameras are for.
Tony Spadaro
(save for those who make inkjet contact printing negatives) and I'm not sure
it's anything people like me (using computers and inkjets) would want
either - a lot depends on the quality of the scan. I can always re-scan my
stuff (at least until the emulsion dies) but there is no second shot with
the ASF method. On the other hand there really is no second chance in any
film processing (okay, there are in some cases, but in general - no) so for
the casual shooter and family snapper this is going to be a no-change
situation. One of the things I've learned from my lab is that an awful lot
of people put the prints from each roll into an album then throw out the
envelope from the lab along with the negatives. They have had people bring
in prints to have re-printed they only picked up a few days before -
"Negatives - I don't think so. The garbage went out on Tuesday."
--
http://chapelhillnoir.com
and partial home of
The Camera-ist's Manifesto
The Links are at
http://home.nc.rr.com/tspadaro/links.html
"Richard Knoppow" <dick...@ix.netcom.com> wrote in message
news:aq48td$31b$1...@slb0.atl.mindspring.net...
>
Robert L. Vervoordt
<Je...@prontoREMOVETHISmail.com> wrote:
>X-No-Archive: Yes
>
>Complete silver recovery at the expense of destroyed negatives and only
>can do black and white.
>Talk about pointless!
No, it does color. From the earlier description, as I recall, The
scanning lasers record each layer of the emulsion by selective focus
and build three records: RGB. They use these to print in color after
that. That's the unique part.
Otherwise, it does seem pretty pointless.
>
>You use film if you want to keep the negatives. Something like this is
>what digital cameras are for.
>
>
>Greg Miller wrote:
>
Richard Knoppow
"Tom Phillips" <nosp...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:3DC5AC9A...@aol.com...
>
>
> Ken Hart wrote:
>
> > I read somewhere that test marketing has been done and
well received by the
> > public
> > (who apparently doesn't realize that having a negative
stored away could
> > someday be important!-- my opinion).
>
> Well, when they make "complete silver recovery" sound like
it's going to save
> the world from toxic waste and the average snapshootist
has no idea pixels in
> the long term aren't worth the 1's and 0's they're copied
from...
>
> It's unlikely the companies marketing this technology are
going to actually
> inform otherwise photo-ignorant consumers that the cost of
a roll of film means
> that film is worth keeping.
>
>
The odd thing is that all the silver can be reclaimed from
normal color processes. There is no silver left in the
emulsion, its all removed by the blix and in large volume
operation, where it pays, is recovered.
The "fiction" part of this company's name seems well
chosen.
Tony Spadaro
The idea is to use few little in the way of chemicals and produce high
quality digital scans - high quality enough for the average snaps shooter
minimum. I have no idea whether the goal is met at this point, but their
original product, ICE, probably has saved me 250 to 500 hours in retouch
time over the last 3 years, and the ROC (restoration of colour) is equally
amazing. I haven't tried GEM or SHO (in fact I don't even know what SHO is)
but expect that they work at least as well as advertised.
As I said above -- you and I are not the target market for this. It's
the thousands who toss the negatives out when they sort the prints who would
be the expected users of the process. By going directly to scans that also
means the lab can produce digital prints without any further time scanning
the film -- meaning no photo chemicals at all in the printing stage.
--
http://chapelhillnoir.com
and partial home of
The Camera-ist's Manifesto
The Links are at
http://home.nc.rr.com/tspadaro/links.html
"Richard Knoppow" <dick...@ix.netcom.com> wrote in message
news:aqfus7$t1t$2...@slb2.atl.mindspring.net...