Fixing and Hardening?
DaveHodge
I have been using Kodak Rapid Fix with the hardener omitted; then after toning,
the prints are immersed in a hardening bath. Since I am making about 50-50%
toned and untoned prints, this means draining trays of fixer into storage
bottles, since I don't have room in my sink for 2, 20x24 trays of fixer.
Has anyone approached this problem by fixing everying in Rapid Fix without the
hardener, then hardening the prints at the end? This would enable be to have
only one tray of fixer mixed up.
I realize it would add an extra step to processing untoned prints.
A related question: How fragile are prints processed without a hardener?
All suggestions appreciated. Best regards to all--
Ray C.
Dave,
Prints that have not been hardened are fairly fragile.
By having too many prints in the tray at one time,
I've managed to scratch a couple in the past. If you
are very careful you can minimize this but, the possibility
of damage is always present.
Also, it probably depends on what paper and surface type
you use. I generally use Kodak Polymax RC in N and F
finishes.
Regards
Ray Ciurej
Michael A. Covington
emulsions are intrinsically harder than Ilford emulsions and require longer
fixing times in the Ilford fixer, but definitely do not require hardening.
Paul Friedman
upon how you process (including washing stage), unhardened prints can be
scratched rather easily. Except on the rare occasions when I am batch
processing a bunch a prints from the same negative, I do not use a
hardening fixer or a later hardening bath -- but, in this case, I don't have
a huge number of prints being processed at one time. My print washer keeps
the prints from touching each other, so I just need to be particularly
careful while handling.
"DaveHodge" <dave...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20010526111938...@ng-fo1.aol.com...
ChrisPlatt
TIA,
Chris
Priscilla
DaveHodge wrote:
> I have been using Kodafix for prints not to be toned. For prints to be toned,
> I have been using Kodak Rapid Fix with the hardener omitted; then after toning,
> the prints are immersed in a hardening bath.
Great Question! I have been wondering if I should be hardening my prints after
toning. I had always thought that the hardener provided protection only while the
prints were wet, and that once dried, all prints were equally vulnerable to
scratches and other types of damage due to handling. BUT, it seems like my Thio-U
toned prints are awfully fragile, even when dry. I tone carefully, and wash one
print at a time in a tray, doing fill and dump, fill and dump, so the print does
not get damaged that way. But, when spotting a finished print, I have to be sooo
careful not to scratch it. I never had this problem before. I am using Ilford
Multigrade IV warmtone fiber paper, both glassy, and mat. I am also contact
printing, leaving a black border, which of course, shows crud like crazy.
Also, I am getting a few dull fingerprints and odd smudge marks on some of the
prints...sort of like a sludging effect...just dulls the gloss a bit. Even on matt
paper (where the crud looks lighter, and even a bit shiny). I can't figure out the
source...I'm thinking maybe finger oil during processing? It looks like a very fine
precipitate on the surface of the print. And, of course, it won't polish out or
wash off.
When processing finished work, I do switch back to real thumbs and fingers, since I
trust that I can wash my hands better than I can wash tongs. Works for me. I use
gloves in the toner, and handle only by the extreme corners.
My best hypothesis is that the sodium hydroxide is too strong in my toner recipe,
and that there is some kind of dissolution of silver, forming even a collodiol
silver, that redeposits as crud on susceptible areas of the print (which have a
different condition due to some contamination). Just a guess. I even wash the
doorknobs in the house, the light switches, and eat lowfat foods out of a bowl,
(like a dog), when printing. I mean, I am careful in the extreme. You have to be a
little bit nuts to do this, right??
Richard, where are you? Please help!
Priscilla
Sam G
Ilford chemistry--Multigrade developer and fixer-- and have not seen any
real problem with scratches when handling the prints somewhat carefully (but
I wash 4-6 prints at a time in a large tray with running water with
occasionally manually repositioning the prints to keep them equally washed).
I also use Thiouracil toning often with high NaOH concentration to achieve a
cooler tone. Once again, I do not see a lot of scratches on my prints.
Maybe you should try the Ilford chemistry--easy to use in a liquid format. I
use the most dilute concentrations (1:9 for fix and 1:14 for dev.) and have
had no real problems as you describe.
Sam
Richard Knoppow
The choice of using a hardener or not depends entirely on whether
you suffer emulsion damage. The pupose of the hardener in the fixing
bath is to shrink the emusion, which will have become swelled and
softened by the developer and stop bath. Once the paper is dry the
emulsion wil shrink back anyway. However, getting rid of the swelling
before washing tends to prevent frilling and reticulation during
washing and while drying.
Alum hardener (postassium aliminum sulfate), which is commonly used
in fixing baths tends to bind thiosulfate over a narrow range of pH.
Actually this pH is at the edge of the range over which the hardener
is active.
This binding tends to slow down washing. However, if the emulsion is
treated in a sulfite bath after fixing the binding of the alum is
broken and it has no effect on wahing rate. An alkaline bath does the
same thing but also undoes the hardening. A buffered sulfite wash aid
like Kodak Hypo Clearing Agent breaks the bond but does not soften the
gelatin.
For RC papers the use of a wash aid is unnecessary since the wash
rate, even with alum, is so fast that the use of a wash aid would
result in excessive washing with consequent loss of image stability.
Where toning is to be done eliminating the hardener will somtimes
improve the toning. The difference is probably not due to the
hardening of the emulsion (the toner will often undo this anyway) but
may be due to the emulsion pH or redidual hardener. To adjuts the pH
use the wash aid.
Ilford fixers have no hardener. This may make no difference in most
cases but, some papes and films have rather soft emulsions and need
the hardening step to prevent frilling or tearing.
The use of a wash aid even with non-hardening fixers is recommended
especially for fiber based paper. The sulfite acts as an ion exchanger
for the thiosulfate ions and results in washing times about on fifth
of those without the wash aid. This is quite apart from the effect of
pH adjustment.
For RC prints to be toned the results may be better without the
hardener. Otherwise it probably makes little difference. Most RC
papers have relatively hard emulsions from hardeners added during
manufacture.
---
Richard Knoppow
Los Angeles, Ca.
dick...@ix.netcom.com
JIB
will get bleached out. I was wondering if this is true and if so about
how long would it take for this to happen.
Thanks
John
Richard Knoppow
A long time. The most suseptible are warm toned prints in film
strength rapid fixer. I think it would take at least half an hour for
the fixer to start dissolving the image.
I thought that Richard Henry had tested this but can not find it in
his book. In any case, its not a real problem.
However, rapid fixer with citric acid added is a useful reducer for
removing dichric fog.
Thomas Wollstein
> I was recently told that if I leave prints in the fixer too long that
> will get bleached out. I was wondering if this is true and if so about
> how long would it take for this to happen.
That depends on the fixer. AFAIK, sodium thiosulphate fixers and alkaline
fixers will not bleach even when used for too long a time. Ammonium thiosulphate
fixers, however, can bleach. I don't think a precise time can be given, after
which the bleaching action becomes apparent. But there are further aspects:
a) As the fixer contains more and more silver after more and more fixed sheets,
the clearing time will increase. It would thus seem natural to extend fixing
time. However, beyond a certain limit, this will not help. Fixing will remain
incomplete. (Richard Knoppow re-posted a very informative article by Mike
Gudzinowicz. Search for Gudzinowicz. The subject line is "Two Fixer Questions".)
b) Long fixing allows the hypo to penetrate into the paper fibres, or to seep
into the edges of RC materials. While it's practically impossible to remove it
in the latter case, extended washing may help in the first case, but it takes
lots of water and time.
Therefore, quick fixing, two-bath, if possible, is the way to go if you want
to be safe, and save time and water.
Regards,
Thomas Wollstein
John
A very, very long time. The only bleaching that I've observed is when i
toss a hypo-soaked test print in the trash. The next day you will usually see a
warm-toned image which is the result of the grains being etched and perhaps a
little sulfiding.
Regards,
John S. Douglas Photographer
http://www.photographers-darkroom.com
===============================
Tim Brown
>
> >I was recently told that if I leave prints in the fixer too long that
> >will get bleached out. I was wondering if this is true and if so about
> >how long would it take for this to happen.
> >
> >Thanks
> >John
It's possible. I found out the hard way using Agfa MCP RC paper and
Sprint Rapid Fixer at film strength and no hardener. Prints left in
the bath 5 minutes are noticably lighter. 15 minutes and the image
disappears! I went back to paper strength fixer and fix prints 1-2
minutes in each of the two fix baths.
Tim Brown