Agfa Atomal Formula?
Keith Tapscott
Agfa Atomal film developer formula, (Calbe A-49 perhaps?)
I was wondering if someone could translate this into English.
http://xoomer.virglio.it/morebacc/7formule.htm
Keith Tapscott
"Keith Tapscott" <keith`s_...@home.com> wrote in message
news:42f4bcea$1...@mk-nntp-2.news.uk.tiscali.com...
> There is a film developer formula, which appears that it may be the
> original Agfa Atomal film developer formula, (Calbe A-49 perhaps?)
> I was wondering if someone could translate this into English.
>
>
http://xoomer.virgilio.it/morebacc/7formule.htm
Keith Tapscott
There are some interesting formulae on this site, including one which
appears to be designed for Kodak T-Max films and another claiming to be
Tetenal Emofin 2-Bath developer and many others too.
The Atomal developer formula I beleive, was designed to optimise emulsion
speed yield. Since then of course, we have Microphen from Ilford.
"nailer" <unli...@due2spam.on.net> wrote in message
news:4m0cf1lgi0g66h866...@4ax.com...
> Calgon 1
> N-hydroxyethyl-o-aminophenol 6
> Pyrocatechin 10
> Hydroquinone 4
> Sodium sulfite anh 100
> sodium carbonate anh 25
> potassium bromide 1
> water to 1 l
>
>
>
>
> On Sat, 6 Aug 2005 14:52:43 +0100, "Keith Tapscott"
> <keith`s_...@home.com> wrote:
>
> *
> *"Keith Tapscott" <keith`s_...@home.com> wrote in message
> *news:42f4bcea$1...@mk-nntp-2.news.uk.tiscali.com...
> *> There is a film developer formula, which appears that it may be the
> *> original Agfa Atomal film developer formula, (Calbe A-49 perhaps?)
> *> I was wondering if someone could translate this into English.
> *> http://xoomer.virglio.it/morebacc/7formule.htm (Error)!
> *>
> *>
> *http://xoomer.virgilio.it/morebacc/7formule.htm
> *
>
Richard Knoppow
interesting article in a German magazine:
http://www.phototec.de/sw_magazin/wissen_main.php3?wissen_id=5
My German is very limited so I used Babblefish to translate it. The
result takes quite a bit of interpreting but the general meaning can be
understood.
This article gives formulas for several developers. According to it
Atomal is as detailed by Nailer but Atomal FF is a Phenidone and
Hydroquinone developer, formula not given. I think that
N-hydroxyethyl-o-aminophenol may also be an ingredient in Rodinal
Special. If I understand the function of the o- aminophenol correctly
it is used as a silver solvent rather than as an active developer.
Windisch uses 0-phenylenediamine in a similar way in an
extra-fine-grain developer where Metol is the main developing agent.
o-phenylenediamine also is not an active reducing agent but is an
effective solvent of silver halide.
Richard Knoppow
dick...@ix.netcom.com
Richard Knoppow
somehow missed trying it in the past.
From the article I posted the link to Promicrol seems to be
another developer using Promicrol N-Hydroxyethyl-o-aminophenol. Of
course, it is a proprietary formula so one must be careful about
assuming the accuracy of the formula. In any case its given as:
Promicrol (maybe)
N-Hydroxyethyl-o-aminophenol 6.0 grams
Glycin
1.2 grams
Sodium Sulfite, dessicated 100.0 grams
Sodium Carbonate, anhydrous 11.5 grams
Calgon
1.7 grams
Water to make 1.0
liter
Richard Knoppow
dick...@ix.netcom.com
Keith Tapscott
indeed the same as used in both original Agfa Atomal and M&B Promicrol and
kindly translated by nailer. The information that I have found, is that
Atomal was first introduced by Agfa in the 1930`s.(The Focal Encyclopaedia
of Photography.)
Richards description of the components for the later Atomal FF is
interesting and different from my own findings. Agfa Atomal FF seems to be a
developer of the Kodak Microdol and Ilford Perceptol type and the components
being Metol and a PPD derivative. I have an Agfa technical publication,
(Technical Data P-16-C) which gives a recommended exposure index and
developing times for use with Atomal FF for Agfa, Fuji, Ilford and Kodak B&W
films, eg: APX 100 is E.I. 50 and APX 400 is E.I. 160, PAN F Plus is E.I.
20, Delta 100 is E.I. 40 and HP5 Plus is E.I. 200, T-MAX 100 and 400 are
E.I. 50 and 250 respectively and Neopan 400 and 1600 are E.I. 160 and 250
respectively etc. For APX 100 in Atomal, the E.I. is 160 and AP 400 is E.I.
500.
Agfa Atomal and Atomal FF are two different developers, I believe that both
of these are now discontinued. The formula as written for Atomal, is an
interesting one and if genuine, is worth publishing for historic reasons,
authenticating it, may be difficult.
"nailer" <unli...@due2spam.on.net> wrote in message
news:n5eef1pcmo73qgh2u...@4ax.com...
> Atomal FF was large scale product for tanks or machines (regenerated).
>
> Atomal and A49 are the same. Atomal from Agfa in Leverkusen, A49 from
> ORWO nee Agfa in Wolfen. [ORiginal WOlfen].
>
>
> On 7 Aug 2005 22:41:45 -0700, "Richard Knoppow"
> <dick...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
>
> * In looking up N-hydroxyethyl-o-aminophenol I ran across an
> *interesting article in a German magazine:
> *http://www.phototec.de/sw_magazin/wissen_main.php3?wissen_id=5
> * My German is very limited so I used Babblefish to translate it. The
> *result takes quite a bit of interpreting but the general meaning can be
> *understood.
> * This article gives formulas for several developers. According to it
> *Atomal is as detailed by Nailer but Atomal FF is a Phenidone and
> *Hydroquinone developer, formula not given. I think that
> *N-hydroxyethyl-o-aminophenol may also be an ingredient in Rodinal
> *Special. If I understand the function of the o- aminophenol correctly
> *it is used as a silver solvent rather than as an active developer.
> *Windisch uses 0-phenylenediamine in a similar way in an
> *extra-fine-grain developer where Metol is the main developing agent.
> *o-phenylenediamine also is not an active reducing agent but is an
> *effective solvent of silver halide.
> *
> *Richard Knoppow
> *dick...@ix.netcom.com
>
Keith Tapscott
The component that Richard mentions and kindly translated by nailer, is
indeed the same one as used in the M&B Promicrol formula. The information
that I have for Agfa Atomal, was that it was introduced by Agfa in the
1930`s (Focal Encyclopedia of Photography).
The description that I have of Atomal FF, is that it`s a developer of the
extra fine-grain type, similar to Kodak Microdol and Ilford Perceptol, but
contains both Metol and a PPD derivative.In Agfa Technical Publication
P-16-C, there are a list of recommended exposure indices and developing
times for Agfa, Fuji, Ilford and Kodak films when processing with Atomal FF,
for example, APX 100 is E.I. 50 and APX 400 is E.I. 160, Kodak T-MAX 100 and
T-MAX 400 are E.I. 50 and 250 respectively.
For Agfa Atomal, APX 100 is E.I. 160 and AP 400 is E.I. 500, so you see that
Atomal and Atomal FF are entirely different developers.
If the formula for Atomal is genuine, then it is worth publishing for
historical reference, authenticating it, may be difficult without knowing
where the information came from.
"nailer" <unli...@due2spam.on.net> wrote in message
Alexander Selzer
> Agfa Atomal and Atomal FF are two different developers, I believe that both
> of these are now discontinued.
Atomal FF is still available. Atomal was discontinued some years ago.
Alex
--
Alexander Selzer
http://www.grosskabinett.de/
Richard Knoppow
> Atomal used to be my developer of choice (very fine
> grain)in 60-70ies.
> when films were not as good as the current crop. Not very
> durable.
>
Do you think this is still a useful developer? I wonder if
it would have problems with dichroic fog on modern films.
--
---
Richard Knoppow
Los Angeles, CA, USA
dick...@ix.netcom.com
Richard Knoppow
> Atomal used to be my developer of choice (very fine
> grain)in 60-70ies.
> when films were not as good as the current crop. Not very
> durable.
>
>
> *The Atomal developer formula I beleive, was designed to
> optimise emulsion
> *speed yield. Since then of course, we have Microphen from
> Ilford.
> *
> ----------------------------------------
Some additional material. N-Hydroxyethyl-o-aminophenol
may be related to the substances in three patents assigned
to Agfa/Ansco in 1930. They are:
USP 1,758,892
USP 1,799,568
USP 1,853,455
The latter has some sample formulas in it.
I appear to be wrong about this not being an active
developing agent.
Keith Tapscott
"Richard Knoppow" <dick...@ix.netcom.com> wrote in message
news:GHQJe.2844$Wi6...@newsread2.news.pas.earthlink.net...
>
> "nailer" <unli...@due2spam.on.net> wrote in message
> news:i6def1lomoghqoa2b...@4ax.com...
>> Atomal used to be my developer of choice (very fine grain)in 60-70ies.
>> when films were not as good as the current crop. Not very durable.
>>
> Do you think this is still a useful developer? I wonder if it would have
> problems with dichroic fog on modern films.
Probably not, the formula is complicated to the point of being rather silly,
the developing agent is mentioned on page 434 of The Focal Encyclopedia of
Photography in a short paragraph, which I shall write for you:
(In 1935, Agfa introduced the Atomal developer which utilized
hydroxyethyl-o-aminophenol and lately this compound together with glycin,
has formed the basis of Promicrol, patented by John and Field.)
Maybe this developing agent is unique to Agfa, as it does not seem to be
readily available with any of the photo-chemical suppliers that I have
checked with.
Personally, I don`t see what advantage, if any that it has over standard MQ
or PQ formulations. I have noted the formula for personal curiosity more
than anything, whether it is the authentic formula for Atomal, may never be
clarified.
Matthew McGrattan
wrote:
>----------------------------------------
>* I appear to be wrong about this not being an active
>*developing agent.
>
>
>if it complies with Kendal's formula, then it will work as a
>developing agent. Some amino derivatives have that dissolving power as
>well. It does both.
>Many derivatives of p-phenylenediamine were used in very fine
>developers, when films were not so good. It minimised a grain at a
>cost of resolution, as opposite to say Rodinal.
>Windish, Perceptol, Atomal all belonged to that group. The effect was
>quite distinct. It was beneficial with thicker, grainer older type
>efilms. IMHO shape of the characteristic curve, latitude are equaly
>important, or even more. I think that getting maximum details rather
>than smaller grain per se, should be an ultimate task. There is no use
>of very fine film with very short curve (latitude). ORWO NP15 was very
>fine grain, but too contrasty, usually with blocked blacks and white.
I've used Calbe A49 (also branded as Adox ATM49 I think) quite a bit
recently and it's excellent.
I've had particularly good results with it on fastish films like Fuji
Neopan 400, but have also had good results with films like Classic Pan
200.
The tonality is really nice and the grain is nice too -- not strong
grain but the grain that is there has a nice texture.
Matt
Andrew Price
<matthew....@bnc.ox.ac.uk> wrote:
>I've used Calbe A49 (also branded as Adox ATM49 I think) quite a bit
>recently and it's excellent.
>
>I've had particularly good results with it on fastish films like Fuji
>Neopan 400, but have also had good results with films like Classic Pan
>200.
Agreed - I've also found A49/Classic 200 to be a good combination.
lykodes
different developers. Atomal is the fine one.
The exact formula for Agfa Atomal is the following:
Package A:
Oxyethyl-ortho-aminophenol 6g
Pyrocatechin 10g
Hydroquinone 4g
Package B:
Sodiumsulfite sicc. 100g
Sodiumcarbonate sicc. 25g
Potassiumbromide 1g
Sodiummetaphosphate 1g
Dissolve in 750 ml of water of 50° Celsius. Cold Water to make 1
litre.
This formula was published after world war II by an investigation
comission of the allied forces that also published other Agfa formulas
like Rodinal. Later published in No. 3019 "Amateur Photographer" 1946.
In my attempt to mix this formula I asked at Agfa if the formula was
right. I was told that AGFA cannot confirm this formula (of course it's
the companie's secret). But they confirmed that the Ingredients are
right. I expect this formula to be right.
The problem is the main developing agent oxyethyl-ortho-aminophenol.
Agfa reported me, that in the past they ordered this derivate at Merck,
a German pharmaceutic company. In fact, I don't know where to get this
agent. Maybe it can be replaced by some Color Developer like Kodak CD2.
I think Atomal was one of the finest BW developers ever formulated with
a beautiful gadation and some subtle staining effect providing full
film speed and substantial fine grain. If someone knows where to order
the right developer agent I would be happy to be informed.
Greetings from Germany,
Wolfgang Grote
Andrew Price
wrote:
[---]
>I think Atomal was one of the finest BW developers ever formulated with
>a beautiful gadation and some subtle staining effect providing full
>film speed and substantial fine grain. If someone knows where to order
>the right developer agent I would be happy to be informed.
A-49, manufactured by Calbe, is reported to be more-or-less identical
to the old Atomal.
lykodes
N-N-diethyl-1,4-phenylendiammoniumsulfate = Kodak CD1 and
Hyroquinone
The formulation of Atomal is totally different, maybe the results are
comparible.
The old Promicrol formula, which uses similar derivates like Atomal
could also give similar results
(http://www.digitaltruth.com/techdata/promicrol.php), but the problem
again is the availability of the main developing agent.
Greetings,
Wolfgang Grote