Disposing Of Selenium Toner--Concerns And Questions
Jerry
Given that selenium toner is very toxic, I feel a bit odd throwing it
down the drain. Is there some way of neutralizing it or making it
less toxic to just throw down an utitity sink?
Or am I just being paranoid--it's just as easily eliminated from the
wastewater as any other photochemical or waste product....?
Jerry Cargill
j...@enteract.com
brookmartin
what to do or where to bring it. With a little care KRST will go a long
ways. I store my spent Se toner in gallon jugs that the distilled water
comes in and bring it to the hazmat center once a year.
Brook
Dan Smith
It is easy to dump the old used toner into a plastic jug with the top
protected so your pets & kids don't get into it. Let the water evaporate &
then re-use the jug for more selenium. It will take years for enough crud to
build up so you have to dump it... then take it to a 'toxic waste disposal
site' and they will get rid of it for you.
dan smith
John
>Given that selenium toner is very toxic, I feel a bit odd throwing it
>down the drain. Is there some way of neutralizing it or making it
>less toxic to just throw down an utitity sink?
>
>Or am I just being paranoid--it's just as easily eliminated from the
>wastewater as any other photochemical or waste product....?
Simple. If you have exhausted the toner, there is not selenium left in it
anyway. Also note that selenium in small quantities is not toxic. If you have
used Head-&-Shoulders shampoo, you have covered your head with a selenium
solution.
Regards
John S. Douglas Photographer & Webmaster
Formulas, Facts and Info on the Photographic Process
http://www.darkroompro.com
Francis A. Miniter
fluid, bleach, laundry detergent.
Francis A. Miniter
Thor Lancelot Simon
Jerry <j...@enteract.com.nospam> wrote:
>Hello,
>
>Given that selenium toner is very toxic, I feel a bit odd throwing it
Actually, selenium toner is not all that toxic.
--
Thor Lancelot Simon t...@rek.tjls.com
But as he knew no bad language, he had called him all the names of common
objects that he could think of, and had screamed: "You lamp! You towel! You
plate!" and so on. --Sigmund Freud
Tom Phillips
Thor Lancelot Simon wrote:
> In article <3dead3e5...@news.enteract.com>,
> Jerry <j...@enteract.com.nospam> wrote:
> >Hello,
> >
> >Given that selenium toner is very toxic, I feel a bit odd throwing it
>
> Actually, selenium toner is not all that toxic.
Actually, it is considered toxic both for people and aquatic environments. Which
is *why* it's recommended you don't put your hands in toner but instead use
gloves or tongs. Allowable discharge rates regulated by states and local
sanitation districts are quite small. If you don't believe me, call your own
state agency enforcing water quality standards and ask 'em.
Dan Quinn
"Given that selenium ... is very toxic..." Down the drain? I think
that might be taking it's toxicity lightly. Consider the minute amount
of mercury in the old fever thermometer. They are no more. Soaps with
Selenium is one reason the fishing is'nt so good. At home they are safe
but in the enviornment they oxidise and may become soluable. Some years
ago a wildlife refuge in California was destroyed by selenium.
Untill recently I was sold on selenium. Now, NELSON'S GOLD TONER is on
top of my list. All speak well of it and it is very economical. Dan
Lloyd Erlick
>Untill recently I was sold on selenium. Now, NELSON'S GOLD TONER is on
>top of my list. All speak well of it and it is very economical. Dan
dec402 from Lloyd Erlick,
I think you are implying that Nelson's has no oder, among other things. No
ammonia sounds very good to my aging mucous membranes.
Can you describe the visual effect of Nelson on a warm-tone FB print? My color
perception is inaccurate to say the least, and I have found that selenium toner
produces a nice result on Ilford warmtone FB. Gold appeals to me, too, but a
description of the final look of the print would be nice...
regards,
--le
-------------------------------------
Lloyd Erlick,
357 Richmond Street West,
Toronto M5V 1X3 Canada.
---
voice 416-596-8751
ll...@the-wire.com
http://www.heylloyd.com
-------------------------------------
Chris Ellinger
wrote:
>Can you describe the visual effect of Nelson on a warm-tone FB print? My color
>perception is inaccurate to say the least, and I have found that selenium toner
>produces a nice result on Ilford warmtone FB. Gold appeals to me, too, but a
>description of the final look of the print would be nice...
My experience with Ilford MGWTFB is that full toning produces a yellow
gold tone. Following with selenium produces a more red gold. Partial
toning, with Nelson's only, produces slightly reddish blacks.
Chris Ellinger
Ann Arbor, MI
USA
Tom Phillips
John wrote:
> On Mon, 02 Dec 2002 03:34:10 GMT, j...@enteract.com.nospam (Jerry) wrote:
>
> >Given that selenium toner is very toxic, I feel a bit odd throwing it
> >down the drain. Is there some way of neutralizing it or making it
> >less toxic to just throw down an utitity sink?
> >
> >Or am I just being paranoid--it's just as easily eliminated from the
> >wastewater as any other photochemical or waste product....?
>
> Simple. If you have exhausted the toner, there is not selenium left in it
> anyway. Also note that selenium in small quantities is not toxic. If you have
> used Head-&-Shoulders shampoo, you have covered your head with a selenium
> solution.
I think there'd always be some selenium left, unless you want to tone until you're
sure the toner is 100% exhausted, or there's a test for determining that besides
noting prints no longer tone. One can say in small quantities most substances have
limited toxicity; it's the cummulative quantities that most apply in environmental
disposal situtations. That includes human exposure as well. And this is why
allowable discharage rates are small for selenium, which is not as easily handled by
sanitation systems as say, spent developers and fixers. I'd check with the local
sanitation district rather than advocating blindly pouring selenium waste down the
drain.
BTW, most commercial soap products contain a lot of things besides soap, which
cummulatively are not necessarily harmless. They are absorbed into the body directly
through the skin and so is selenium, though I doubt a shampoo has anywhere near the
same concentration of selenium that a toning bath does. Fortunately, I've never had
dandruff :)
Tony Wingo
>
> I think there'd always be some selenium left, unless you want to tone until you're
> sure the toner is 100% exhausted, or there's a test for determining that besides
> noting prints no longer tone. One can say in small quantities most substances have
> limited toxicity; it's the cummulative quantities that most apply in environmental
> disposal situtations. That includes human exposure as well. And this is why
> allowable discharage rates are small for selenium, which is not as easily handled by
> sanitation systems as say, spent developers and fixers. I'd check with the local
> sanitation district rather than advocating blindly pouring selenium waste down the
> drain.
>
> BTW, most commercial soap products contain a lot of things besides soap, which
> cummulatively are not necessarily harmless. They are absorbed into the body directly
> through the skin and so is selenium, though I doubt a shampoo has anywhere near the
> same concentration of selenium that a toning bath does. Fortunately, I've never had
> dandruff :)
With the exception of Selenium Dioxide (which is not used in any
photographic process) Selenium and Selenium compounds are not absorbed
through the skin in significant quantity, which is why Selenium
Sulfide is approved for use in dandruff shampoos. Selenium and it's
compounds can be toxic if the powder is inhaled or if it is injested
(I ran across a report of someone who died after drinking Gun Bluing,
which is Selenium based). Even though toxicity via skin absorbtion is
not an issue, there have been reports of rashes and swelling resulting
from skin contact, so it is advisable to use tongs and/or gloves when
toning.
The primary environmental consequences of Selenium pollution have to
do with reproductive effects and malformation in birds. Since it does
accumulate in the environment I would echo the advise to check with
your local sanitation district about disposal.
Dan Quinn
"I think you are implying that Nelson's has no oder, among other
things. No ammonia sounds very good to my aging mucous membranes."
I think it was very well of you to underscore with STINK, the oder
which is resignedly tolerated in the darkroom. Having, some years ago,
done just that and for years, it took some time to realise there was a
real alternative. Some on this ng poo-poo the smell and tolerate it.
All things being equall or BETTER, no smell won hands down.
Mr. Ellinger is the only one I know of who regularly uses Nelson's
Gold Toner. On this or another thread he spoke of the oder being less
than that of selenium or sepia. Treatment for one hour at room tempera-
ture is reported to work and, I'd add, likely with zero oder.
Nelson's Gold Toner is usually worked at a 20 degree lower tempera-
ture than hypo-alum. A persulfate is used in it's compounding. A power-
full oxidiser, it convirts any sulfites to sulfate. In effect the main
body of the toner is nothing more than sodium thiosulfate. The ammonia
or potassium portion of the persulfate play no part. Apart from that a
pinch of silver, a dash of gold and it's ready to go.
Toning takes place due to the slow oxidation of the solution which
is more rapid when warm. I think a shallow bath would favor a more rap-
id toning.
The above is, I believe, a correct partial explanation. Ph plays a
roll. Alum toners appear to work at a lower ph.
I'll not go into hypo-alum toners. I have given them some thought.
"Can you describe the visual effect of Nelson on a warm-tone FB print?
Steve Anchell speaks of "a hint of warmth to rich sepia browns". Dan
Adelphia
give it a bit of depth. If I tone it excessively, on most FB papers I've
used, I can actually drive the color toward purple.
I've never used gold tone, because of the warmer tone (i.e., red side of the
spectrum) which does just the opposite visually, and that's not the effect
I'm after.
Point is: using gold tone in lieu of selenium may impart different visual
effects, regardless of disposal considerations.
Jim Stewart
VA
"Chris Ellinger" <elli...@umich.edu> wrote in message
news:abasuusf6pm0au9c0...@4ax.com...
Gregory W Blank
different (more like several,..many) Gold toning formula. Using the "one"
to get the look you desire, is just a part of "photo knowledge" Really the
color Gold imparts is a result of the other ingredients in conjunction
with the gold.
It all chemistry!!
Some Gold toners produce warm and some very cold. Much more so, "colder"
than Selenium
toned prints. Selenium is nice because you can readily get deep blacks
which are somewhat cold
and a hint of rose in the highlights which tends to visually stimulate the
viewer.
Sort of a split toned result which I find appealing.
In article <A7oI9.132$VA5.1...@news1.news.adelphia.net>, "Adelphia"
<anonym...@excite.com> wrote:
> I use selenium purely to create a 'cold' tone to the print, which appears to
> give it a bit of depth. If I tone it excessively, on most FB papers I've
> used, I can actually drive the color toward purple.
>
> I've never used gold tone, because of the warmer tone (i.e., red side of the
> spectrum) which does just the opposite visually, and that's not the effect
> I'm after.
>
> Point is: using gold tone in lieu of selenium may impart different visual
> effects, regardless of disposal considerations.
>
> Jim Stewart
> VA
--
Photographic website @
http://members.bellatlantic.net/~gblank
Thor Lancelot Simon
>give it a bit of depth. If I tone it excessively, on most FB papers I've
>used, I can actually drive the color toward purple.
>
>I've never used gold tone, because of the warmer tone (i.e., red side of the
>spectrum) which does just the opposite visually, and that's not the effect
>I'm after.
Normal gold toner doesn't do that; it's just the Nelson's stuff that does.
Ordinary gold toner creates a pretty even bluish tone to the whole print --
really more "blue" than most toners that produce a "cold" tone, but still
slight -- and causes a 10-15% increase in density of all tones, not just
the shadows as partial selenium toning can do.
It's also quite expensive, and the toner solution doesn't last long once
mixed. I gold tone some amount of my work but generally only night or snow
scenes where a slightly obvious blue tone is not objectionable. What I do
is save up the washed, dried prints for a few months, then mix up a gallon
of gold toner and shuffle them all through it in a tray with vigorous
agitation. Works pretty well, but due to the tone shift it (like sulfiding
toners or Nelson's) isn't really a good general-purpose solution for all
prints, for me at least.
I've never cared for the particular tone change given by the Nelson's toner;
I don't use it for that reason and for two others: first, the expense, when
if I want brown tones other more commonplace toners will do. Second, I am
deeply suspicious of any "magic" photographic chemical or process that's
being wildly hyped in the magazines, in this newsgroup, in the local public
darkroom, or wherever at any particular moment and generally find that by
avoiding those chemicals I save myself a lot of time, money, and hassle
while continuing to produce good, archival work that I'm still quite happy
with.
Thor Lancelot Simon
Thor Lancelot Simon <t...@rek.tjls.com> wrote:
>the shadows as partial selenium toning can do.
>
>It's also quite expensive, and the toner solution doesn't last long once
>mixed. I gold tone some amount of my work but generally only night or snow
>scenes where a slightly obvious blue tone is not objectionable. What I do
>is save up the washed, dried prints for a few months, then mix up a gallon
>of gold toner and shuffle them all through it in a tray with vigorous
>agitation. Works pretty well, but due to the tone shift it (like sulfiding
>toners or Nelson's) isn't really a good general-purpose solution for all
>prints, for me at least.
One thing I forgot to mention: you want to *soak* the prints for a while
in plain water at 70F before shuffling them through the toning bath. Once
dried, the emulsion hardens somewhat and a soak of at least 15 or 20
minutes is helpful in obtaining even results from any further processing
steps.