Selenium toning with multigrade fibre papers?
Knate10397
FB MG to be basically non-existant in kodaks rapid selenium. I find that
the Oriental New Seagull VC Plus (or however that name goes!) works very
well. I am currently printing a show on this paper and toning in selenium
and gold and the change after the selenium is quite marked and nice.
of course... who knows how much longer this paper is available, so....
I guess its time to do some more experimentation....
Nathan Sanborn
Christof Bircher
Kodak in 1:3, 1:6, 1:10 and 1:20 dilutions with Ilford Multigrade FB
paper, but I only got a small increase in contrast (darkening of the
blacks), but no color change.
Is this normal for Multigrade FB (I read somewhere that vc papers don't
work with selenium toner...)?
Can anyone make a suggestion which paper I should use to get a
dark-brown or reddish toning (I can only get Ilford, Agfa and Kodak papers
here in Switzerland)?
Thanks in advance
Chris
Mark Gunion
conditions typically employed. The paper requires more vigorous conditions.
I use 1:40 or 1:20 Kodak Selenium toner (diluted in water, treating
well-washed prints), 85-95F, with continuous agitation (shuffling) for
20m. Under these conditions you will see quite a nice toning. Obviously,
it is the higher temperature and constant agitation that matter; I suspect
the temperature is the more important. 95F water is not hot, just warm,
and will not harm the paper.
Oriental VC fiber base does not require as warm a temperature (80-85F is
fine), and with continuous agitation tones to maximum effect in about
5-7m.
Don't know why they're different, but they are.
Mark Gunion
mwgu...@ucdavis.edu
Edward M. Lukacs
:
: Can anyone make a suggestion which paper I should use to get a
: here in Switzerland)?
:
: Thanks in advance
:
: Chris
:
You might try Agfa's Viradon toner, which appears to be a Potassium
Polysulfide/Selenosulfide toner. It WILL tone just about any paper
if you wait long enough.
Though it is not suggested in the instructions, AGFA'S Viradon toner
can be used as a bleach/redevelop toner. All that you need do is
bleach the print in any standard Potassium Ferricyanide/Potassium Bromide
bleach, then redevelop in Viradon. The silver conversion will be
complete. The color, especially on very cold-toned papers, is a deep
chocolate brown.
I hope this helps you.
Ed Lukacs
Dave Cattell
This is probably heresy in such exalted company. BUT I want to
have a go at toning/colouring Ilford MG IV RC glossy paper.
Any hints and tips out there. I've never tried toning or colouring
prints at all before. It will probably be a case of picking up
what the local shop has and giving it a go to begin with.
I'm doing this to create copies of some old B&W photos. One looks
sepia toned, the other is coloured (sepia?, pink and blue).
What I've done so far is to make bracketed copies onto TMAX100
and I'm currently picking the best exposure/negative and printing
combinations.
I may not be taking the optimum route but cost (I need 12 10x8s)
and stuff I've already got are real constraints, although I'm prepared
to buy toner/colouring chemicals.
Any advice appreciated,
Dave Cattell
Dave Cattell
Email: catt...@prl.philips.co.uk
Tel: +44 (0) 1293 815274 Fax: +44 (0) 1293 815500
Not opinions my employers would acknowledge.
Joseph Davidchik
catt...@prl.philips.co.uk (Dave Cattell) wrote:
Do you think Selenium will give you the type of image change that you
want? For the most part
selenium just deepens the black in you image, then if left longer turns
you image into I believe a
purple cast ( I dunno, never toned that long to see).
Also, would selenium have any effect on RC paper? For the most part I use
Ilford Fiberbase paper and use
selenium to make them archival (so they last longer).
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Joseph Davidchik PGP pub key upon request
(davi...@oro.net)
In a conversation, talking of nothing
We were drinking sweet wine
Comforting our one and only
In our sterile business
we have become jealous
satisfied in our desolation
wrapped in our vivid dreams
- Blindfold, CURVE
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
LEO DANIEL LAMBERT
>I'd like to tone my prints with selenium toner. I used the toner from
>Kodak in 1:3, 1:6, 1:10 and 1:20 dilutions with Ilford Multigrade FB
>paper, but I only got a small increase in contrast (darkening of the
>blacks), but no color change.
>
>Is this normal for Multigrade FB (I read somewhere that vc papers don't
>work with selenium toner...)?
>
>dark-brown or reddish toning (I can only get Ilford, Agfa and Kodak papers
>here in Switzerland)?
>
>Thanks in advance
>
>Chris
>
You could add potassium carbonate to your toner. This tends to get
the toned image ***sligthly*** more brown.
OTOH, the only way I found to really change the colour of the
print was to bleach it in a rehalogenating bleach, REDEVELOP it and then
tone it.
You could experiment with different bleaches. They tend to modify
the nature of the silver halides and I think this is what makes the
toner work.
One (homemade) bleach I use is:
HCl about 10 cc
Ammonium dichromate about 5 grams
Sodium chloride about 5 grams
Water to make 1 liter
I say ***about*** because I don't have my formula with me right now.
However, I know the proprotions are not critical.
Be sure NOT to use sulfuric acid because it would transform your
silver into soluble halides and you would lose your image.
You will also note that I use chloride salts and not bromide.
If I remember it well, chloride papers tend to be warmer than
bromide ones and selenium works better on them.
In essence, what you do with this bleach and redevelop method
is making a chloride paper.
good luck
Leo
Mel Proudfoot
I don't think you are going to make life very easy for yourself. Why? because
of the difficulty in toning Ilford MG IV - re: the last post, I have used
AGFA Viradon to tone it, and got quite good results. Its the selenium that I have
had no joy with! But I will try increasing the time/temp/agitation and see how that
works.
To colour B&W I, and I have just started doing this, so am no expert. But I have
used a Patterson colour print re-touching kit. This kit contains the primary colours
in translucent dyes. You mix the colour, from the primaries, then dilute, they apply
with a 000 brush. Building up the colour slowly.
This works fine in experiments so far. Have not done any toned prints yet. Also,
your glossy paper may give some problems, because the dye has nothing, or not as
much, to key too.
I have not tried this, but the instructions state that glossy papers are harder to
do!
I also say some coluring oils, when recently in the states, but unfortunately did
not buy any. Maybe you could ask Silverprint what, if anything, they have.
phone 0171-620-0844.
good luck
Mel
Chesapeake Bay Foundation
: This is probably heresy in such exalted company. BUT I want to
: have a go at toning/colouring Ilford MG IV RC glossy paper.
: Any hints and tips out there. I've never tried toning or colouring
: prints at all before. It will probably be a case of picking up
: what the local shop has and giving it a go to begin with.
well, if this is heresy then I've been commiting it for quite some time.
I use MG IV (pearl finish) and normally tone with Kodak Sepia toner.
Expose your paper about an extra 10% is my only suggestion. Try varying
the times in the bleach to see what effects that has and determine your
own personal like. I don't think that you'll have much success with hand
coloring glossy paper - it's just not made for that. Let me know if you
have any specific questions. Oh yeah, if you want to look at
http://www2.ari.net/home/cbf/hmpi.html you can get an idea of what I'm
doing.
george
Dave Hollows
>I'd like to tone my prints with selenium toner. I used the toner from
>Kodak in 1:3, 1:6, 1:10 and 1:20 dilutions with Ilford Multigrade FB
>paper, but I only got a small increase in contrast (darkening of the
>blacks), but no color change.
>Is this normal for Multigrade FB (I read somewhere that vc papers don't
>work with selenium toner...)?
>Can anyone make a suggestion which paper I should use to get a
>dark-brown or reddish toning (I can only get Ilford, Agfa and Kodak papers
>here in Switzerland)?
>Thanks in advance
>Chris
Chris
I have found that at 1:20 gives me the best blacks with Multigrade FB<
but, like you, no colour change.
With Agfa Record Rapid and the same dilution I get a browny/purple
tone the density depending on how long I leave it in the solution. A
slight danger however id that the emulsion may break up if left to
long in the solution.I have never used Kodak paper with selenium
toner.
Hopes this helps.
-- Cheers
Dave Hollows
Manchester UK
Philip Branche
>This is probably heresy in such exalted company. BUT I want to
>have a go at toning/colouring Ilford MG IV RC glossy paper.
>Any hints and tips out there. I've never tried toning or colouring
>prints at all before. It will probably be a case of picking up
>what the local shop has and giving it a go to begin with.
>I'm doing this to create copies of some old B&W photos. One looks
>sepia toned, the other is coloured (sepia?, pink and blue).
>What I've done so far is to make bracketed copies onto TMAX100
>and I'm currently picking the best exposure/negative and printing
>combinations.
>I may not be taking the optimum route but cost (I need 12 10x8s)
>and stuff I've already got are real constraints, although I'm prepared
>to buy toner/colouring chemicals.
>Any advice appreciated,
>Dave Cattell
> Dave Cattell
>Email: catt...@prl.philips.co.uk
>Tel: +44 (0) 1293 815274 Fax: +44 (0) 1293 815500
>Not opinions my employers would acknowledge.
I have succeeded in just the process you describe - toning RC for
color change ... in my case I was using AGFA MCP 310RC but I'm about
to use Ilford MG IV in the same way. Processing for me was standard,
(I use AGFA NEUTOL WA developer and Ilford Multigrade Fixer.) I mix
Selenium Toner with Heico PermaWash Solution about 1:10-15, but
experiment. I tone by visual inspection and also observe the changes
in shadow detail.
The big secret to accomplishing tone change is using a non-hardening
fixer and guarding against over-fixing. You will never achieve tone
change on a print that's been over-fixed. I find in addition the
enrichment of shadow detail to be absolutely thrilling and am very
happy with the process. Can't wait to try it with Ilford MG IV !
Juan F. Sanz Cervera
LEO DANIEL LAMBERT <H2...@MUSIC.ULAVAL.CA> wrote:
>In article <49uoue$k...@aragorn.unibe.ch> bir...@ioc.unibe.ch (Christof
Bircher) writes:
>>Kodak in 1:3, 1:6, 1:10 and 1:20 dilutions with Ilford Multigrade FB
>>paper, but I only got a small increase in contrast (darkening of the
>>blacks), but no color change.
>>
>>Is this normal for Multigrade FB (I read somewhere that vc papers don't
>>work with selenium toner...)?
>>
>>Can anyone make a suggestion which paper I should use to get a
>>dark-brown or reddish toning (I can only get Ilford, Agfa and Kodak papers
>>here in Switzerland)?
>>
>>Thanks in advance
>>
>>Chris
>>
>You could add potassium carbonate to your toner. This tends to get
>the toned image ***sligthly*** more brown.
>
>OTOH, the only way I found to really change the colour of the
>print was to bleach it in a rehalogenating bleach, REDEVELOP it and then
>tone it.
>
>You could experiment with different bleaches. They tend to modify
>the nature of the silver halides and I think this is what makes the
>toner work.
>
>One (homemade) bleach I use is:
>
> HCl about 10 cc
> Ammonium dichromate about 5 grams
> Sodium chloride about 5 grams
> Water to make 1 liter
>
>
>I say ***about*** because I don't have my formula with me right now.
>However, I know the proprotions are not critical.
>Be sure NOT to use sulfuric acid because it would transform your
>silver into soluble halides and you would lose your image.
>
>You will also note that I use chloride salts and not bromide.
>If I remember it well, chloride papers tend to be warmer than
>bromide ones and selenium works better on them.
>In essence, what you do with this bleach and redevelop method
>is making a chloride paper.
>
>good luck
>
I recently tried this method (I had seen it described in a book whose title I
don't remember at the moment) to tone Ilford MGFB paper, and it works fine. It
is somewhat of a hassle to bleach, wash, redevelop and tone, but the results
are extremely rewarding IMHO, and I would recommend it to those who like
experimenting in the darkroom.
Even following this method (the formula above should work well) you have to
tone with a fairly concentrated solution of Selenium Toner (1:10 to 1:5). The
result is a beautiful, rich, deep brown tone with strong density in the shadow
areas, but good tone separation.
If you try this method, make sure that you wash your print well enough after
the bleaching (i.e. until there is no residual yellow color from the
dichromate). Dichromate is a known carcinogen; it should be handled with care
(gloves!) and disposed of according to local regulations (it is a heavy-metal
hazardous waste).
Regards,
- Juan F. Sanz Cervera
Dave Hollows
>This is probably heresy in such exalted company. BUT I want to
>have a go at toning/colouring Ilford MG IV RC glossy paper.
>Any hints and tips out there. I've never tried toning or colouring
>prints at all before. It will probably be a case of picking up
>what the local shop has and giving it a go to begin with.
>I'm doing this to create copies of some old B&W photos. One looks
>sepia toned, the other is coloured (sepia?, pink and blue).
>What I've done so far is to make bracketed copies onto TMAX100
>and I'm currently picking the best exposure/negative and printing
>combinations.
>I may not be taking the optimum route but cost (I need 12 10x8s)
>and stuff I've already got are real constraints, although I'm prepared
>to buy toner/colouring chemicals.
>Any advice appreciated,
>Dave Cattell
> Dave Cattell
>Email: catt...@prl.philips.co.uk
>Tel: +44 (0) 1293 815274 Fax: +44 (0) 1293 815500
>Not opinions my employers would acknowledge.
Dave
I don't want to teach my grandmother to suck eggs but it sounds as if
you have the negative and print side sorted ok.
The toning is a different matter, for cheapness without any archival
permanence try Tesco's food colouring. Very dilute. You can play
around to your hearts content for very little cost.
For more permanent results any commercial sepia toner is fine. They
all have a different effect but work OK. For best results mix your
own. This will be in any good photo chemistry book. If stuck give me a
call and I'll send the recipe.
Hope this helps.