Darkroom sump pumps
Barry Sherman
I've posted a couple of queries about how to deal with the
low ceiling in the basement where we're going to build our new
darkroom. Now another problem.
We have the classic situation where we can look overhead and see
the main sewer line going out to the sewer in the middle of
the street. Obviously, gravity is not going to offer much
assistance in draining the sink when the sewer line is 5 higher
than the sink.
Because basements are largely unheard of here in San Jose, CA, I
fully expect that plumbers will be ignorant of how such problems
are handled elsewhere.
I've seen postings from time to time in which people have described
building a holding tank and putting an automatic sump pump in it
to pump the effluent from the sink up to the sewer pipe.
Could someone who's done this please post details? I wonder
about:
* Preventing other stuff flowing through the sewer pipe from
running down the hose/pipe to the sump pump. Or is this even
a problem? Or are one-way valves employed? I've thought about
kind of an inverted J trap so that the effluent being pumped
by the sump pump would enter the sewer pipe from above rather
than from below. ???
* Noise and vibrtion. How loud are sump pumps? Will it be
really irritating? Or should we, perhaps, go with a really
big holding tank (say a couple hundred gallons) and manually
switch the sump pump on when we finish the darkroom session?
(Raises the question of whether sump pumps will be damaged
by being run when the holding tank is dry?)
Is there much vibration?
I'd appreciate hearing design/implementation details from people
who've done this.
Thanks!
Barry
--
Barry Sherman, Amdahl Corp. | Art does not reproduce what we see.
b...@oes.amdahl.com | It makes us see. -- Paul Klee
My opinions, not Amdahl's |
Barry P. Flashman
Barry Sherman wrote:
>
> I've posted a couple of queries about how to deal with the
> low ceiling in the basement where we're going to build our new
> darkroom. Now another problem.
I have been using an ABS laundry tray pump which is mounted directly to
my sink and then to the DWV system through a check valve. I have not
seen this recently in the market place; W.W. Grainger Co. offers a
number of laundry tray pumps that use a sealed plastic sump to collect
the effluent; the pumps are controlled by a float switch. Noise and
vibration are relative. These units sell around $200 +/-.
Richard J. Fateman
In article <EnEsM...@ccc.amdahl.com>,
Barry Sherman <b...@oes.amdahl.com> wrote:
If you have enough of a drop so that your waste water
will fill a container about 2-3 feet deep, then you
can drop a submersible self-starting sump pump into it
and pump your waste through a small hose to a nearby laundry sink.
Vibration is negligible. You may not even hear it.
Cost, $35-60. Not very elegant, permanent or even foolproof.
You might also want to dump the pail if you have a long
wait between uses. Who wants a load of stinky water rotting
your little plastic pump. Also you have to make sure you
are not giving it too much water to pump. (How much depends
on how much height you have to add + pump capacity)
(I think I have a "Little Giant" brand. But usually I
just empty the pail, and wash prints in the sink in the kitchen.
--
Richard J. Fateman
fat...@cs.berkeley.edu http://http.cs.berkeley.edu/~fateman/
Darkhats
One model of the "Little Giant" pump is advertised as chemical-resistant.
You might want to see if you can find a phone # for them and call them about
it.
John G. Walter
I currently don't have this problem in my current lab, but I am
contemplating a move to an building that will not have floor drains.
Rather than spend big money for a plumber to come out and drill through the
floor and run new lines (I've done this in the past and believe me it is
expensive), I am thinking about doing EXACTLY what you are talking about.
the two major manufacturer's of chemical resistant pumps are "Little Giant"
and "March Pump Co." They both manufacture small fully submersible models
that are impervious to photographic solutions. I use many non-submersible
models of these pumps in recalculating roles in my processing machines.
As I see it, there are two problems. The first would not be a problem in
your case in working to drain a sink, since the drain height is sufficient
to accommodate a large tank. One of my processors is only inches from the
floor. I think I will have to build a platform to raise the entire machine
(nearly a ton) at least another foot to allow a shallow tank with some
capacity.
The other problem is how to signal the pump to activate. Since most of
these pumps are magnetic driven, they cannot be allowed to run dry. I
still need to do some exploring for float type switches to sense the nearly
full holding tank.
BTW.....both of these manufacturers can provide engineering data that will
tell you what capacity is needed. The primary concern is "lift distance"
Both of these pumps are available from industrial suppliers such as
Grainger.
Barry Sherman <b...@oes.amdahl.com> wrote in article
<EnEsM...@ccc.amdahl.com>...
> I've posted a couple of queries about how to deal with the
> low ceiling in the basement where we're going to build our new
> darkroom. Now another problem.
>
Richard Graff
In article <EnEsM...@ccc.amdahl.com>, Barry Sherman wrote:
> I've seen postings from time to time in which people have described
> building a holding tank and putting an automatic sump pump in it
> to pump the effluent from the sink up to the sewer pipe.
>
> Could someone who's done this please post details? I wonder
> about:
>
> * Preventing other stuff flowing through the sewer pipe from
> running down the hose/pipe to the sump pump. Or is this even
> a problem?
Use a "J" fitting to keep sewer gasses out of the room and a one way valve at the
output of the pump to fliud from backwashing.
> * Noise and vibrtion. How loud are sump pumps? Will it be
> really irritating? Or should we, perhaps, go with a really
> big holding tank (say a couple hundred gallons) and manually
> switch the sump pump on when we finish the darkroom session?
I've only used a sump/pump system in darkrooms with a concrete floor, vibrations
was not much of a problem, however just in case I always would shut of the water
flow in the sink before a critical exposure.
Second, make sure it is plugged into a different circuit than your enlarger.
These pumps have a very high initial currant draw and your enlarger will
noticably dim, a killer during an exposure <G>.
> I'd appreciate hearing design/implementation details from people
> who've done this.
As I've said, my current and last darkroom use(d) a sump pump. I have an
'off-the-shelf" product made by Flo-Tek, they are available at Home Depot, for
less that $200.00 if memory serves me right.
It is a sealed housing or sump that includes the sump and pump. The pump comes
with a float valve so that the pump turns on and off when necessary. I can't
remember if the one way valve was included or not, if not I would purchase one
anyway.
I PVC plumbed mine up to the attic across about 30 feet and down to a drain pipe
I could get to. My house is a single story and the darkroom is in the garage in
an HVAC'd room, so I didn't go up more than 8-9 feet or so.
DColucci
I have been following this thread closely but am not getting a clear answer
that I understand. I know too little about plumbing...
I have a basement where the waste pipes are 6 feet off the ground and I have
been told I too need to have pump to get waste water out and into the waste
lines..
My washing machine is in the basement and does have a waste pipe connnection..
Question : what is my cheapest option to effectively rid water out of a
darkroom sink and into the waste lines. I have an old sink thats about 2+ feet
deep. Can I just get a small pump, dump it into the sink, and run the line
into the same waste line as the washer ??? help
Can I do what this guy said, fat...@peoplesparc.cs.berkeley.edu:: <<<<<<"If
you have enough of a drop so that your waste water will fill a container about
2-3 feet deep, then you can drop a submersible self-starting sump pump into it
and pump your waste through a small hose to a nearby laundry sink. Vibration
is negligible. You may not even hear it. Cost, $35-60. Not very elegant,
permanent or even foolproof. You might also want to dump the pail if you have
a long wait between uses. Who wants a load of stinky water rotting your little
plastic pump. Also you have to make sure you are not giving it too much water
to pump. (How much depends on how much height you have to add + pump capacity)
(I think I have a "Little Giant" brand. But usually I just empty the pail, and
wash prints in the sink in the kitchen. -- ">>>
thanks in advance
Visit my Antique & Classic Camera WebSite
http://members.aol.com/dcolucci/index.html
I am a collector of pre 1900 wood & brass cameras, as well as other antique
cameras.
bergstro
"John G. Walter" <jgwa...@erols.com> writes:
> The other problem is how to signal the pump to activate. Since most of
> these pumps are magnetic driven, they cannot be allowed to run dry. I
> still need to do some exploring for float type switches to sense the nearly
> full holding tank.
Don't forget marine supply stores in your search. They have both bilge
pumps and the float switches to control them.
Pete
John G. Walter
The problem here though, is that it needs to be impervious to the
chemicals. Forget about using ANY metal other than stainless, and it
probably should be 316L stainless.
bergstro <berg...@htc.honeywell.com> wrote in article
<uk9bju...@mn65-gendibal.htc.honeywell.com>...
Mark Gunion
Hi Barry,
I've always had to use a sump & pump set up. The drain pipe from my
darkroom sink drops straight down into an 18 gal Rubbermaid container in
which sits a Flotec fully submersible pump with a mercury float switch. I
chose this impeller type pump so that there is no pump head to be damaged
if run dry, although I suppose the motor might eventually overheat. The
pump output goes through a Flotec one-way valve into a garden hose. In my
original darkroom, the garden hose ran directly into a washing machine
drain pipe about 20 ft away. In my current set up, it hooks onto 1/2 inch
copper piping which runs under some doors into an adjacent bathroom; there
a length of flexible plastic tubing attached to the end of the copper line
can be extended into the bathroom sink drain as needed (down to the level
of the trap, thus avoiding any photo solutions in the sink bowl). Total
cost roughly $100-120.
This system has worked pretty well. I wouldn't consider going without the
automatic float switch; the sump would have overflowed a gazillion times
by now if I'd had to remember to run the pump manually. Plus, I could
never go do something else while my prints washed. Beware that, if the
electricity goes off, you need to shut down the water flow; this includes
not just the obvious whole-house black-out, but the insidious working
loose of the pump plug from the wall socket due to gremlins (or cats, in
my case); I check mine every session, being the obsessive that I am. Also,
you have to be sure that the float switch will not bind against the
outflow hose, or the drain line, or the electric supply cord, else it may
never reach the on (or off) position. I try not to get the sump water too
hot (over 120F); the pump instructions specify a working range of 32-70F,
but so far I have had no problems. The noise is not at all bad, and is
only intermittent anyway. The pump leaves about 6 in water standing in
the sump; this has not been a problem, although if I'm not going to use it
for a while I usually add enough bleach to prevent microbial growth.
Overall it's been a very workable solution for me. If you have
questions, best to email me directly.
Good luck!!
Mark G.
mwgu...@ucdavis.edu
CaptJetSki
Hi Barry,
Ive had a chemical pump in my basement for 22 years. here's what to consider
1. check valve at sewer to prevent sewer draining to darkroom
2. my sink empties into a 20+/- gallon tank to which the pump is attached and a
automatic bilge switch for a boat is used to activate the pump
3. include a method to drain the tank and or to bypass the pump. so if there is
a problem the wated is not going all over the floor.
4. you want a little bit of noise. A> it tells you that the pump is working.
B>it tells you that the switch is working IF you can hear the pump come on and
shut off you know all is worling. If you dont hear the pump shut off you know
that there is a problem.
5. Use a chemical pump available from Graingers. almost the same as a
replentishment pump on a processor.
Hope I helped
I fout need mor info
Tom Beitz
CaptJ...@aol.com
Photovision Inc
http://members.tripod.com/~Photovision98/index.htm
Richard Graff
In article <19980129152...@ladder02.news.aol.com>, DColucci wrote:
> I have a basement where the waste pipes are 6 feet off the ground and I have
> been told I too need to have pump to get waste water out and into the waste
> lines..
>
> My washing machine is in the basement and does have a waste pipe connnection..
>
> Question : what is my cheapest option to effectively rid water out of a
> darkroom sink and into the waste lines. I have an old sink thats about 2+ feet
> deep. Can I just get a small pump, dump it into the sink, and run the line
> into the same waste line as the washer ??? help
>
You have a couple of things to keep in mind with this, typically washing machine
pumps do not have the flow rate and volume than a sump pump will have. If your
washing machine setup is typical, then you have a "J" fitting hanging in a
slightly larger PVC tube that has a "P" trap. Its probable that this pipe will
not be able to handle the flow of the "Sump" pump with out backwashing.
What you could do, is hard pipe two PVC tees into this pipe with pressure relief
fitting at the top. The pressure relief fitting will close when one of the pumps
is working to ensure the waste goes into the drain, but allow air into the system
when the pumps turn off to ensure the waste continues thru the "P" trap. You
will have to install one way vavles on bot the outputs of you washing machine and
sump pump as well.
I have done this in a past house and can assure you it will work. If your still
not clear about what I'm talking about, e-mail me your fax number and I'll fax a
diagram.
-Rick
Using Virtual Access
http://www.vamail.com
LJ Powell
>We have the classic situation where we can look overhead and see
>the main sewer line going out to the sewer in the middle of
>the street. Obviously, gravity is not going to offer much
>assistance in draining the sink when the sewer line is 5 higher
>than the sink.
//snip//
>I've seen postings from time to time in which people have described
>building a holding tank and putting an automatic sump pump in it
>to pump the effluent from the sink up to the sewer pipe.
//snip//
>* Preventing other stuff flowing through the sewer pipe from
> running down the hose/pipe to the sump pump. Or is this even
> a problem?
You bet this could be a problem. The solution is a check valve that
only allows flow in one direction.
>* Noise and vibrtion. How loud are sump pumps? Will it be
> really irritating?
The one that I have is so quiet that I can barely hear it.
> Or should we, perhaps, go with a really
> big holding tank (say a couple hundred gallons) and manually
> switch the sump pump on when we finish the darkroom session?
Up to you. Of course, you have to remember. Also, with a manually
controlled system you have to periodically check that the tank isn't
filling too much.
> (Raises the question of whether sump pumps will be damaged
> by being run when the holding tank is dry?)
Probably.
> Is there much vibration?
No
In my one person darkroom, I use a 5 gal plastic pail as a reservoir,
and an ordinary commercial sump pump. Initially, the pump drained
into laundry tubs with their own pan pump, but when I had some
plumbing work done last year, I had the plumber pipe it directly to
the main drain through a check valve.
I choose to do my washing at the laundry tub. As a result, I
typically get less that a pail full of effluent in each darkroom
session.
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Louie Powell, APSA
<LJPo...@spam.ix.netcom.com>
(address modified to minimize spam - to reply, remove "spam")
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Dr. Edward H. Scissons
There are also commercially available pumps that are designed to pump
sewage uphill. They typically cut in or turn on when there is liquid and
stop when there is no liquid. Often they are used in houses where the
septic tank or sewer line is uphill and the domestic ones even grind up the
sewage as it passes through.
*********************************************************
Ed Scissons
Ph.. (306) 653-2305
Fx. (306) 934-3959
eMail p...@sk.sympatico.ca
Jean-David Beyer
LJ Powell wrote (in part):
> >We have the classic situation where we can look overhead and see
> >the main sewer line going out to the sewer in the middle of
> >the street. Obviously, gravity is not going to offer much
> >assistance in draining the sink when the sewer line is 5 higher
> >than the sink.
> //snip//
> >I've seen postings from time to time in which people have described
> >building a holding tank and putting an automatic sump pump in it
> >to pump the effluent from the sink up to the sewer pipe.
> //snip//
> >* Preventing other stuff flowing through the sewer pipe from
> > running down the hose/pipe to the sump pump. Or is this even
> > a problem?
>
> You bet this could be a problem. The solution is a check valve that
> only allows flow in one direction.
You may wish to check your plumbing code. In many situations, a vacuum
breaker is required (although a typical sump pump installation may
include one implicitly) to keep sewage water from getting into the water
supply. A check valve is not guaranteed to be absolutely leak-proof in
the reverse direction. There are ghastly stories of water from hospital
slop sinks getting into the water supply through no fault of the
hospital, but by someone putting a booster pump in the water supply of
the building across the street without a vacuum breaker there. You should
really know what you are doing if you do not get a pump specifically
designed for the job.--
Jean-David Beyer
Shrewsbury, New Jersey
William Laut
Something else to thing about during the planning stage: Assuming that
you are doing the plumbing yourself and that you've never done this sort
before, make certain that the sump pump's tap into the sewer line feeds
into the _top_ of the line. ID, that the "Tee" fitting where you'll
attach the pump's (and check valve) is pointing upwards, so that no other
waste in the line would try to flow against the check valve.
Bill
LJ Powell (LJPo...@spamix.netcom.com) wrote:
:
: >We have the classic situation where we can look overhead and see
: >the main sewer line going out to the sewer in the middle of
: >the street. Obviously, gravity is not going to offer much
: >assistance in draining the sink when the sewer line is 5 higher
: >than the sink.
: //snip//
: >I've seen postings from time to time in which people have described
: >building a holding tank and putting an automatic sump pump in it
: >to pump the effluent from the sink up to the sewer pipe.
: //snip//
: >* Preventing other stuff flowing through the sewer pipe from
: > running down the hose/pipe to the sump pump. Or is this even
: > a problem?
:
: You bet this could be a problem. The solution is a check valve that
: only allows flow in one direction.
:
: >* Noise and vibrtion. How loud are sump pumps? Will it be
:
P02djs
Has anyone ever tried one of those small pumps that are used with air
conditioning systems? They are fairly small. Used to pump either the water
collected by the dehumidifer or the humidifier when there isn't a drain nearby.
They work on a float switch and take the water down to less than a 1/8". I
don't know if they have a large enough size to accomodate the volumn of water
that goes through the darkroom, but I've never checked in to it. I also don't
know if they would handle the chemicals. But, hey, nothing ventured, nothing
gained.
Howard Bingham
In article <19980129152...@ladder02.news.aol.com>,
dcol...@aol.com (DColucci) wrote:
> I have been following this thread closely but am not getting a clear answer
> that I understand. I know too little about plumbing...
>
> I have a basement where the waste pipes are 6 feet off the ground and I have
> been told I too need to have pump to get waste water out and into the waste
> lines..
--
My Color Film processing darkroom used to be located in a second basement
of the office building that I am in & the sewer line was located 8 ft.
above floor level.. Our solution to getting waste water to the sewer line
was to have two 5 gallon plastic chemical tanks on the floor (The second
tank was for emergency use, as we had a color film processor that was
running close to 12 hours a day, with a water flow rate of at least 2 gal.
per minute.. There was a pvc pipe connecting the two tanks at a level
above that which would be normal for the regular sump pump to normally
operate.)..
We used Dayton Stainless Steel submersable sump pumps, which are sold by
W. W. Grainger Co. (Also can be obtained trough commercial plumbing supply
companies.).. For home use, two sumps may be over kill, as we were
processing E-4 & E-6 films in a cine processor.. The pumps were more than
adequate to handle both corrosive photograpohic chemicals & water, and
were connected to the sewer pipe by an 1 1/2" ID galvanized pipe, with a
saddle connection on top of the sewer line.. A backflow valve & cutoff are
required for both maintenance purposes & to eliminate the possibility of
back flow from sewerage the the regular pipe.. (Galvanized pipe was used
only due to city building code at the time, and today, heavy duty PVC
would be ideal.)..
I don't have the price book handy, but I beleive that these pumps sold for
about $ 185.00 a piece, 20 yrs. ago..
--
>
> My washing machine is in the basement and does have a waste pipe connnection..
>
> Question : what is my cheapest option to effectively rid water out of a
> darkroom sink and into the waste lines. I have an old sink thats about
2+ > > feet deep.
--
This may depend upon your cities plumbing code.. Photographic chemicals
can cause problems if mixed with other chemical compunds found in laundry
detergent.. If there was a seperate pump/connection, you could probably
connect to the sewer line at the same place, but that again, may be
regulated by city building/construction codes.)..
--
> Can I just get a small pump, dump it into the sink, and run the line
> into the same waste line as the washer ??? help
>
> Can I do what this guy said, fat...@peoplesparc.cs.berkeley.edu::
<<<<<<"If
> you have enough of a drop so that your waste water will fill a container about
> 2-3 feet deep, then you can drop a submersible self-starting sump pump into it
> and pump your waste through a small hose to a nearby laundry sink. Vibration
> is negligible. You may not even hear it. Cost, $35-60. Not very elegant,
> permanent or even foolproof. You might also want to dump the pail if you have
> a long wait between uses. Who wants a load of stinky water rotting your little
> plastic pump. Also you have to make sure you are not giving it too much water
> to pump. (How much depends on how much height you have to add + pump capacity)
> (I think I have a "Little Giant" brand. But usually I just empty the
pail, and
> wash prints in the sink in the kitchen. -- ">>>
>
> thanks in advance
>
> Visit my Antique & Classic Camera WebSite
> http://members.aol.com/dcolucci/index.html
>
> I am a collector of pre 1900 wood & brass cameras, as well as other antique
> cameras.
--
Howard Bingham
--
(Opinions stated, are personal & are not those of my employer.)
D. Howard Bingham, Color Lab Mgr., Baylor College of Medicine
One Baylor Plaza, Suite 303-A, Houston, Texas, 77030 USA
Phone (voice): 713-798-4681, (Fax): 713-798-6853
Visit our web site at URL: http://www.bcm.tmc.edu/miave/