Ilford fixing Vs Kodak fixing

1 view
Skip to first unread message

Gary

unread,
Jan 4, 1999, 3:00:00 AM1/4/99
to
Ilford recommends fixing for 1 minute. Kodak recommends 10 minutes!

I use the two bath system with Kodak fixer.

Why the big differrence? Is there a technical explanation?

Thank You

Richard Knoppow

unread,
Jan 4, 1999, 3:00:00 AM1/4/99
to
gj...@mediaone.net (Gary) wrote:

These recommendations are for different kinds of fixer and apply to
fiber based paper.
Ilford's recommendations are for rapid fixer (Ammonium Thiosulfate)
diluted as for film. The idea behing this is to accomplish the fixing
as quickly as possible to keep the fixer from being absorbed into the
fibers of the paper support. Once fixer is absorbed to the fibers it
becomes much harder to wash out.
Kodak's recommended times are for standard (Sodium Thiosulfate)
fixer along with a generous fudge factor to insure complete fixing
even with partially ehausted fixer and when fixing several prints at
once. It is really too long. Most paper emulsions will fix out in two
minutes with _fresh_ conventional fixer, they really do not need a
total time of more than four minutes where a two bath fixer is used
and the baths kept reasonably fresh.
Ilford bases its procedure on research that showed that total fixing
time should be kept to a maximum of two minutes, and preferably one
minute for efficient washing.
This also assumes it is desirable to wash out _all_ of the hypo. It
turns out this is probably not necessary or even desirable since a
very small trace of hypo actually stabilizes the image silver. I can't
tell for certain whether Ilford took this into account when designing
their fix-wash system but my suspicion is that they did not.
Unfortunalely, there do not seem to be any Ilford reps monitoring this
news group any more.
Nonetheless, the Ilford fixing and washing process using film
strength rapid fixer (with no hardener) is very effective in reducing
washing times and assuring that the paper will be reasonably
hypo-free.
Some papers will not fix out in the one minute period so Ilford has
extended it to two minutes. You can also do this with Kodak Rapid
Fixer by leaving out the hardener and mixing to the dilution
recommended for film.
Fixer of any sort has a very limited capacity before it starts
leaving insoluable reaction products in the emulsion. These will
eventually attack the image. So, its very important to use the two
bath system where the second bath is always fresh enough to convert
any insoluable stuff left by the first bath into soluable compounds
which will wash out. A single bath fixer will fix no more than ten
8x10 sheets if the results are to be archival. This is consederably
extended by using the two bath method.
Wash aid may help with some of these products but its use is not a
substitute for fresh fixing baths.
---
Richard Knoppow
Los Angeles, Ca.
dick...@ix.netcom.com

Dana H. Myers K6JQ

unread,
Jan 4, 1999, 3:00:00 AM1/4/99
to
In article <36912c55....@news.ne.mediaone.net>,

gj...@mediaone.net (Gary) wrote:
> Ilford recommends fixing for 1 minute. Kodak recommends 10 minutes!
>
> I use the two bath system with Kodak fixer.
>
> Why the big differrence? Is there a technical explanation?

I believe Ilford suggests fixing *prints* in *film strength* fixer
for one minute. Kodak suggests fixing *prints* in *print strength*
fixer for as much as ten minutes (depending on the paper). Fixer
for film is normally much stronger than fixer for prints.

--
Dana K6JQ
Da...@Source.Net

-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own

Paul2earth

unread,
Jan 4, 1999, 3:00:00 AM1/4/99
to
I've recently started using Ilford's Rapid Fixer w/o hardener for prints that
I'm going to tone. After toning, I've been soaking them in a hardening
solution per the directions provided by the toner manufacturer (Kodak). I'm
questioning the necessity of this step noting that Ilford recommends adding a
hardener only if the prints are being processed at elevated temperatures. Can
anyone comment on the necessity or benifits of hardening prints? Thanks.
Paul Taylor
Big World Photography
Mercer Island, WA

lemonade

unread,
Jan 4, 1999, 3:00:00 AM1/4/99
to
In article <36913d41....@nntp.ix.netcom.com>, dick...@ix.netcom.com
wrote:

> Ilford bases its procedure on research that showed that total fixing
> time should be kept to a maximum of two minutes, and preferably one
> minute for efficient washing.

As you know, when Ilford first introduced this procedure, they recommended
a 30 second fix for their Galerie paper. At the time they didn't say
anything about anything different for any other FB paper. What's the
verdict on how prints fixed this way will hold up? And, any particular
papers any worse than any others?

Would you recommend two 30 sec baths for the Ilford procedure nowadays?

And, is there a way to test that you have left just the right amount of
either ammonium or sodium thiosulfate after washing?

--
Due to the intolerable volume of spam these days, I no longer supply a
valid email address.

Gary

unread,
Jan 5, 1999, 3:00:00 AM1/5/99
to
I did not realize this! Kodak fixer is a hardener fixer. So if I use
this with the Ilford paper I should probably fix for about 2 - 4
minutes. I quess that I have been underfixing my Ilford paper in Kodak
fixer ( 1- 2 min).

With rapid fixer Kodak recommends 5:00 min.

Thanks for the info.

On Mon, 04 Jan 1999 22:29:26 GMT, dick...@ix.netcom.com (Richard
Knoppow) wrote:

>gj...@mediaone.net (Gary) wrote:
>
>>Ilford recommends fixing for 1 minute. Kodak recommends 10 minutes!
>>
>>I use the two bath system with Kodak fixer.
>>
>>Why the big differrence? Is there a technical explanation?
>>

>>Thank You
> These recommendations are for different kinds of fixer and apply to
>fiber based paper.
>Ilford's recommendations are for rapid fixer (Ammonium Thiosulfate)
>diluted as for film. The idea behing this is to accomplish the fixing
>as quickly as possible to keep the fixer from being absorbed into the
>fibers of the paper support. Once fixer is absorbed to the fibers it
>becomes much harder to wash out.
> Kodak's recommended times are for standard (Sodium Thiosulfate)
>fixer along with a generous fudge factor to insure complete fixing
>even with partially ehausted fixer and when fixing several prints at
>once. It is really too long. Most paper emulsions will fix out in two
>minutes with _fresh_ conventional fixer, they really do not need a
>total time of more than four minutes where a two bath fixer is used
>and the baths kept reasonably fresh.

> Ilford bases its procedure on research that showed that total fixing
>time should be kept to a maximum of two minutes, and preferably one
>minute for efficient washing.

John Hicks

unread,
Jan 5, 1999, 3:00:00 AM1/5/99
to
On Mon, 04 Jan 1999 21:04:44 GMT, gj...@mediaone.net (Gary) wrote:

>Ilford recommends fixing for 1 minute. Kodak recommends 10 minutes!

Here's the difference; Ilford recommends fixing for one minute in
_film-strength_ rapid fixer w/o hardener. Film strength is an ammonium
thiosulfate rapid fixer mixed 1:3.
Kodak's recommendation is for an ordinary fixer or rapid fixer mixed
paper strength which, if memory serves, is 1:7.
The theory is that prolonged fixing allows the formation within the
paper base of complexes that are extremely difficult to wash out.
Since a strong rapid fixer will fix the emulsion in less than 30
seconds, if a short fixing time is used then there isn't enough time
for those complexes to form.
Important points include the use of _fresh_ fixer, not fixing longer
than one minute (more is not better) and being sure that the paper
you're using will work with this method.

---
John Hicks
John's Camera Shop

John Hicks

unread,
Jan 5, 1999, 3:00:00 AM1/5/99
to
On Mon, 04 Jan 1999 23:59:17 -0500, le...@lime.org (lemonade) wrote:

>As you know, when Ilford first introduced this procedure, they recommended
>a 30 second fix for their Galerie paper. At the time they didn't say
>anything about anything different for any other FB paper.

Barry Sinclair of Ilford said that although 30 seconds in fresh
fixer would be sufficient for most papers, there was some concern that
many photographers would be using fixer that wasn't quite fresh
enough, therefore the recommendation was changed to one minute.

> What's the
>verdict on how prints fixed this way will hold up? And, any particular
>papers any worse than any others?

Well, the procedure hasn't been in use long enough to have a track
record, but testing has shown that most papers are sufficiently fixed
and wash sufficiently clean. I have some 15-year-old RC prints that
were done with the quick-fix method and they're ok...but they're RC,
which is a different matter.
I don't use the Ilford quickie wash recommendation anyway though.

>Would you recommend two 30 sec baths for the Ilford procedure nowadays?

Sure, provided total time doesn't exceed one minute.


>
>And, is there a way to test that you have left just the right amount of
>either ammonium or sodium thiosulfate after washing?

Not that I know of; perhaps one of our chemistry wizards could
address this question.

John Hicks

unread,
Jan 5, 1999, 3:00:00 AM1/5/99
to
I found some info; see Mysteries of the Vortex in the Nov/Dec
1996 _Photo Techniques_ for more on the Ilford quick-fixing procedure
and print washing.

geo...@accesshub.net

unread,
Jan 5, 1999, 3:00:00 AM1/5/99
to
In article <19990104182608...@ng36.aol.com>,
paul2...@aol.comQremoveQ (Paul2earth) wrote:

>I've recently started using Ilford's Rapid Fixer w/o hardener for prints that
>I'm going to tone. After toning, I've been soaking them in a hardening
>solution per the directions provided by the toner manufacturer (Kodak). I'm
>questioning the necessity of this step noting that Ilford recommends adding a
>hardener only if the prints are being processed at elevated temperatures.

I never use hardener with film or paper. I tone various papers, fiber & RC
incl. Forte, Kodak, Agfa, Ilford in Selenium, Sepia, Viradon with no
problems.

George Struk - Natural Light Black & White Photography
http://www.accesshub.net/naturalight

--
PLEASE REMOVE XYZ TO E-MAIL REPLY
Why do we have to resort to this?

TCNE...@ysub.ysu.edu

unread,
Jan 6, 1999, 3:00:00 AM1/6/99
to
In article <36913d41....@nntp.ix.netcom.com>

dick...@ix.netcom.com (Richard Knoppow) writes:

>gj...@mediaone.net (Gary) wrote:
>
>>Ilford recommends fixing for 1 minute. Kodak recommends 10 minutes!
>>
>>I use the two bath system with Kodak fixer.
>>
>>Why the big differrence? Is there a technical explanation?
>>

This is a very interesting discussion as I had a problem with short
fixing times using both regular fixer from Ilford and Kodak Rapid fix. I
found with either product, if the fix was 4 minutes I got white ragged
spots on the prints in random areas. Fixing for 10 minutes solved the
problem. Temperature differences seemed to have no effect one way or
the other. So now I fix for 10 minutes wether rapid fix or regular. I
have hypo clear and wash for 20 minutes in a patterson washer. The
paper I use is Ilford Multigrade 4 processed with either Ilford paper
dev or Kodak Dektol.

-Fred



Reply all
Reply to author
Forward
0 new messages