Flattening 8x10 B&W
John
rolled up. Is there a procedure by which I can flatten them?
Thanks...
Gregory Blank
Are they fiberbase or resin coated?
--
LF Website @ http://members.verizon.net/~gregoryblank
"To announce that there must be no criticism of the President,
or that we are to stand by the President, right or wrong,
is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable
to the American public."--Theodore Roosevelt, May 7, 1918
pgg
John
> In article <427D4160...@att.net>, John <jo...@att.net> wrote:
>
> > I inherited some old 8x10 B&W photos a couple of which were
> > rolled up. Is there a procedure by which I can flatten them?
> >
> > Thanks...
>
> Are they fiberbase or resin coated?
Not sure... they range from 40 to 70 years old...
John
Jean-David Beyer
> I inherited some old 8x10 B&W photos a couple of which were rolled up.
> Is there a procedure by which I can flatten them?
>
wash them, and perhaps fix them again in a fresh bath first, and dry face
down on screens in a room that is not too dry. Then flatten them in a dry
mount press. For best results, dry mount them.
If you just try to unroll them, you will probably crack the surface and
destroy them.
I never tried steaming them, but perhaps placing them in a very humid room
for some hours (overnight) would help them relax. I would not hold them over
a teakettle.
--
.~. Jean-David Beyer Registered Linux User 85642.
/V\ PGP-Key: 9A2FC99A Registered Machine 241939.
/( )\ Shrewsbury, New Jersey http://counter.li.org
^^-^^ 21:25:00 up 13 days, 15:03, 5 users, load average: 4.26, 4.17, 4.10
David Nebenzahl
> I inherited some old 8x10 B&W photos a couple of which were
> rolled up. Is there a procedure by which I can flatten them?
I would say to soak them in water for a while, then dry them as you'd dry any
print (fiber-based, which I think it's safe to say they are).
Carefully. Water won't hurt them at all, but you're going to have to hold them
down in the tray somehow while they soak.
--
It's a good guess that one of two things is going to happen in the
coming days and weeks: Either Bolton goes down—-or we start learning
a lot of unpleasant things about Sen. George Voinovich.
- _Slate_, 4/19/05 (http://slate.msn.com/id/2117028/)
dan.c...@att.net
Search this NG for, observations . Mr. Erlick posted a site
on that thread which goes into detail. The subjects are important
papers, books, etc. I think the methods can also be applied
to "some old 8x10 B&W photos". Dan
Richard Knoppow
photofinishers and some professional photographers may have been heat
dried at too high a temperature or for too long. This changes the
structure of the gelatin emulsion and the gelatin paper sizing under
the emulsion. The result is that they curl very strongly from having
shrunk and become very brittle. If prints like this are unrolled the
surface will crack or craze. I have found very little specfic advise
about conserving these photos. Its possible they would respond to
soaking but at least one source, I think the Kodak book on conserving
photos (Publication No. F-40) recommends against this.
I suggest contacting a conservator at the Getty Museum in Los
Angeles to see if you can get any advice before doing anything. If the
photos are not really valuable you might try soaking them in water for
several minutes and see if they begin to uncurl. Once the gelatin has
swelled the prints should flatten out. If this is successful they
should be dried slowly, preferably using a photo blotter with a sheet
of non-absorbent materal over the emulsion side. This keeps the
emulsion from drying out too quickly, that is, the print dries from the
support side. Drying under some weight should keep the print flat.
I have encountered prints which were dried with a high gloss surface
on a heated drum drier which were so brittle that the emulsion fell
apart in chips when the paper was flexed. There is probably a better
treatment for really brittle prints like this but I've never seen it
specified. A good photo conservator should be able to help but it may
take some effort to contact one who is really knowledgible. The Getty
and the Library of Congress are good places to start.
--
Richard Knoppow
dick...@ix.netcom.com
Nicholas O. Lindan
> I inherited some old 8x10 B&W photos a couple of which were
> rolled up. Is there a procedure by which I can flatten them?
Take Richard Knoppow's advice and make sure the print won't get
damaged by uncurling. I am not quite sure how to view a curled
up print, so unrolling with a bit of damage may be preferable
to a perfectly preserved, though invisible, photograph.
Some papers were more given to cracking than others. Velour
Black by Dupont was really bad in this respect.
Try flexing an unimportant corner - if it seems flexible then I
would uncurl the print and scan it / make a copy negative.
If the curl is gentle then lightly wetting the back of the print
and placing the print to dry between blotters under a tall stack
of books can often work. In my youth I put the print in a white
pages phone book and stacked a few bricks on the book. Inks may
have changed and may now transfer to the photo, so do a test on
a scrap photo first.
I have had great success with soaking the print in Pakosol
print flattener and then drying it. Print flattener solutions
appear to be mixtures of assorted glycols. Edwal's, IIRC,
doesn't work for beans ...
Dried out, brittle, gelatin, being a protein, may respond to
hair creme-rinse or hand lotion. Beer also works. This may
make the print pliable enough that it can be unrolled safely
and copied. I make no claims here - this may be the _worst_
thing one can do - so proceed at your own risk. But
great discoveries are always made with bold strokes and
heroic measures.
--
Nicholas O. Lindan, Cleveland, Ohio
Consulting Engineer: Electronics; Informatics; Photonics.
To reply, remove spaces: n o lindan at ix . netcom . com
psst.. want to buy an f-stop timer? nolindan.com/da/fstop/
John
> specified. A good photo conservator should be able to help but it may
> take some effort to contact one who is really knowledgible. The Getty
> and the Library of Congress are good places to start.
Thanks for the suggestions Richard...
John
Thanks for all the suggestions. I think, however, I'll skip the hand lotion
and beer ideas... :-)
Nicholas O. Lindan
> Nick wrote
> > John wrote
> > > How to flatten old prints?
> > [rational suggestions] devolving into "hand lotion & beer"
> I think, however, I'll skip the hand lotion and beer ideas... :-)
Wuss.
at @the-wire.dotcom Lloyd Erlick
may905 from Lloyd Erlick,
That citation was:
---------
http://aic.stanford.edu/jaic/articles/jaic31-02-003_4.html
journal of the American Institute for conservation
JAIC 1992, Volume 31, Number 2, Article 3 (pp. 175 to
197)
OBSERVATIONS ON THE DRYING OF PAPER: FIVE DRYING
METHODS AND THE DRYING PROCESS
JANE E. SUGARMAN, & TIMOTHY J. VITALE
-------------
However, I think it may be a bit of overkill for the problem at hand.
Another poster suggested normal darkroom technique, which was to wet
the prints and re-fix, and wash as for newly made prints. Normal
drying on screens or by hanging, and flatten when dry in a mounting
press.
I'd be inclined to wet them in distilled water, just because I'm that
way. And if they are relatively small prints like 8x10s, I probably
would flatten them under weight (glass sheets, etc.) after they were
dry. (Actually, if I were doing it, I'd flatten them that way even if
they were 20x24s, because I am geared for it ...).
All after testing on a single representative print that was the least
valuable of the lot.
regards,
--le
________________________________
Lloyd Erlick Portraits, Toronto.
voice: 416-686-0326
email: port...@heylloyd.com
net: www.heylloyd.com
________________________________
--
Richard Knoppow
"Nicholas O. Lindan" <s...@sig.com> wrote in message
news:YcNfe.110$LO1...@newsread2.news.atl.earthlink.net...
If you use too much hand lotion you tend to drop the beer.
--
---
Richard Knoppow
Los Angeles, CA, USA
dick...@ix.netcom.com
Richard Knoppow
"Lloyd Erlick" <Lloyd at @the-wire. dot com> wrote in
message news:8o8v7195ra6ltugr8...@4ax.com...
Photographic prints are a complex structure. "Fiber" base
prints are coated on special paper which has a sizing of
hard gelatin. This sizing may consist of several layers of
hard gelatin at one layer of which contains a reflective
substance, in fiber paper usually Barium Sulfate (Baryta).
The gelatin emulsion is coated on top of this substrate.
Most papers also have a coating of hard gelatin over the
emulsion to resist abrasion. The reason that paper curls is
that the emulsion and substrates shrink at a different rate
than the paper backing. The shrinkage depends on the
moisture content of the gelatin. When the paper is subjected
to high heat during drying so much moisture is driven out
that the gelatin becomes very shrunken causing strong
curling. Many commercially made prints were dryed on heated
drum dryers, often at high heat to increase production rate.
In addition some prints were subjected to mechanical
deformation in so called print straightening machines. These
machines draw the print over a straight edge to stretch the
gelatin layers mechanically. After many years of storage,
especially at low humidity, the gelatin layers may become
very brittle. Adding moisture may at least partially repair
this but it also may cause some damaged gelatin to come off
the paper base.
I don't see any advantage to refixing. Any residual
silver in the prints will long ago have changed to a form
which is no longer made soluble by fixing. If the prints do
not show staining there is no residual silver in them
anyway. The hardener in the fixing bath is also probably not
desirable as strongly curled prints indicate the gelatin is
already badly shrunken and hardening it will just make it
more resistant to swelling again.
Seriously damaged prints really require expert attention.
There are conservators who specialize in this area.
If rewetting is tried the prints should be dried slowly
and in a condition where the support dries faster than the
emulsion to minimise the differential shrinkage. This is
generally good practice for fiber prints.
Note that flattening prints in a dry mount press also
requires differential drying. Prints flattened this way
should be placed in the press with the emulsion side against
a sheet of release paper. This effectively shrinks the
support more than the emulsion, which is what is wanted.
The use of humectants, like Glycerol, may reduce the
shrinkage of the emulsion but is not recommended for
archival prints because the contained moisture tends to
encourage the growth of mold.
Jean-David Beyer
> I don't see any advantage to refixing. Any residual
> silver in the prints will long ago have changed to a form
> which is no longer made soluble by fixing. If the prints do
> not show staining there is no residual silver in them
> anyway. The hardener in the fixing bath is also probably not
> desirable as strongly curled prints indicate the gelatin is
> already badly shrunken and hardening it will just make it
> more resistant to swelling again.
The only reason I suggested refixing (not re-hardening) was to remove
residual silver in the prints since apparently may prints were fixed in
overworked fixer when some photofinishers did not emphasize archival
processing. If the prints were kept dark, would the halide and thiosulphate
complexes change into unfixable stuff? I know when I first started printing,
I used exhausted rapid fix, and the prints looked fine for a few days, but
then the whites turned purple. Now old poorly fixed (or poorly washed, or
both) prints I have seen (some of which I made myself) had the highlights
turn slightly sepia after a few years (10 or so), which I did not like.
Luckily, I processed negatives pretty well from the beginning, so I could
always reprint.
I never had double weight prints curl much; I tried single weight paper long
ago to save money on the theory that it did not matter if I was going to dry
mount them anyway. Well, it did matter. There was always just one whisker of
dust that got between the paper and the mount board, and with SW paper, it
always showed.
--
.~. Jean-David Beyer Registered Linux User 85642.
/V\ PGP-Key: 9A2FC99A Registered Machine 241939.
/( )\ Shrewsbury, New Jersey http://counter.li.org
^^-^^ 21:00:00 up 16 days, 14:38, 4 users, load average: 4.47, 4.25, 4.10