Kittens as snake food: Illegal?
Mike Herman
: In <seedman....@vincent2.iastate.edu> see...@iastate.edu (Varanus salvadorii) writes:
:
: >I don't feed kittens to my snakes, but I will not condemn anyone who does.
:
: I would. Also, I'd be tempted to report anyone who did it to the SPCA.
:
what can they do?
snakes are (at least in some citys) completely legal as pets.
I mean the sell rats and rabbits and G pigs, and hamsters as
SNAKE FOOD here, its pretty obvious that a store with 100 snakes
and 10 rabbits is selling them for. I mean those stores operate
in the open, have permits, get inspected so I *assume* its
legal. Unless there is some
sort of law agaisnt feeding your pet what it can eat, I doubt
that the can do anything.
: >I feel that snake food is a better alternative to dying of exposure, drowning,
: >gassing, or leathal injection and then having the meat go to waste.
:
: Considering how snakes kill their food, I'd rather have a kitten die in ANY
: of the ways you've just mentioned.
:
I have a snake and have observed it kill (NOT kittens)
it seems pretty quick for the most part, after all if it
takes too long the prey can fight back.
(I am not a biolgest so do not take this as serious)
of course the owner can kill the animal via various means, some
the same as the humane society if they wish.
: >Call me cruel, call me insensitive, but that's the way it is.
:
: How about "sick bastard"?
:
have you ever kept or handled a nice tame snake?
or are you one of those poeple with a phobia and have never
gotten within 10 feet of one?
:
: So, are you being serious, or are you simply sparking off a flame war for your
: own amusement?
he is serious.
I live in rural texas, and I would not mind free kittens.
and I would have no trouble getting them, and I doubt its
illegal, after all there are not even leash laws here.
Or spaying laws.
HOWEVER since my snakes are too small for them, It is out of
the question.
The important thing is not to lie, tell the dude why you want them.
I am not saying its a good idea to do this, but I see no reason why
people should jump on us reptile owners for feeding our animals.
After all if they didnt have canned dog and cat food, you would need too
feed them, guess what, probably live mice, rats, or sheep or.......
Invent some sort of canned snake food, that will solve the problem
: --
: | Mason L. Bliss | What diabolical chicken stepped on your |
: | ma...@cis.umassd.edu | forehead and sat on your chin? |
--
JC
mi...@wixer.bga.com
other address: cd...@cleveland.freenet.edu
Rich Young
>In article <Dec.22.19.29...@pilot.njin.net> c...@pilot.njin.net (Sean Casey) writes:
>>From: c...@pilot.njin.net (Sean Casey)
>>Subject: Kittens as snake food: Illegal?
>>Date: 23 Dec 93 00:29:07 GMT
>
>>I know of someone who's done this, and it sounds like a good idea,
>>solving two problems at once. Do you know of any legal barriers to
>>this? I know that using rabbits is legal at least. Would deceiving
>>someone giving away free kittens be illegal? Does that constitute a
>>contract?
>
>>(And please, no "this is sick" stuff. Move morality posts to the
>>ethics groups. This is a serious post.)
>
>>Sean
>
>I don't post often but you are indeed a sick individual if you would use
>kittens as snake food. Find something else to feed your snake.....and don't
>lie to people giving away kittens hoping to find them good homes.
Couldn't stand it, could you? He specifically ASKED for no "this is
sick" stuff.
The reality is that, if one is to keep carnivorous animals, those
animals must be fed, and a kitten is as good a meal as any. HOWEVER,
it does seem that a contract has been made with the giver of the
free kittens, and that such a deceit would constitute breach of
contract. A verbal contract is as binding as a written one...look
at what happened to Kim Basinger when she tried to get out of a
verbal contract to star in a movie: it cost her something like
eight million dollars.
Anyway, it's probably technically illegal to mislead the kitten
donor in such a way, and it certainly seems unethical.
-Rich Young
(The views expressed herein do not reflect those of Eastman Kodak Company Inc.)
steven.j.fenster
> [...] I said "Feeding ANY live animal to
>another animal is disgusting." This would normally imply that the act of
>feeding live prey to something is disgusting, NOT that the animal that eats
>the live prey is disgusting.
So no one should feed snakes that only eat live prey? Judging from some of your
other statements, snakes eating live prey on their own is not palatable to you
either. It seems fine with you to have a predator rip a prey's neck or abdomen
open to kill it before eating it, but not to eat it live. Not much difference
there really. A few minutes perhaps.
If someone fed a dead kitten to a snake, would that be acceptable to you? If
not, is it acceptable to feed (non-live) animal products to cats and many other
animals?
>How does your owning three chinchillas, a guinea pig, and a rabbit make my
>opinion myopic?
As someone who has animals used as snake food by others, I can accept this, as
long as pets aren't used. You, on the other hand, as an apparent cat lover,
have a problem with feeding them to snakes, even if they're not pets. I feel
that you're being myopic because you're not looking past emotional attachments
and other perceptions.
>>And most importantly, would you call the ASPCA on someone that
>>refuses to feed live food to a snake and has the snake die because of it?
>
>I don't think I would... But, I don't foresee this happening somewhere where
>I'd see it any time soon.
So you would call the ASPCA on someone feeding an unwanted cat that might be
otherwise be euthanised or die from neglect to a snake (do you expect to see
THIS soon?), but it would not bother you to let a snake die from neglect?
Perhaps you're being a hypocrite.
I'm curious as to what the ASPCA's position on this is anyway.
Steve
Mike Herman
: In <CInn8...@cbfsb.cb.att.com> sfen...@cbnewsf.cb.att.com (steven.j.fenster) writes:
:
: >>Feeding ANY live animal to another animal is disgusting.
:
: >I see. So animals such as snakes should not exist because they are disgusting.
:
: Read what I wrote before you flame. I said "Feeding ANY live animal to
: another animal is disgusting." This would normally imply that the act of
: feeding live prey to something is disgusting, NOT that the animal that eats
: the live prey is disgusting.
:
:
: Nope. That's still different. There's a bit of a difference between something
: that kills its prey, and something that devours it while it's still living.
excuse me?
my snakes do not eat it while it is still living, they kill it well
and good. Granted some snakes might be in a hurry, but I am do not
quite understand where you got this idea.
:
:
: As I remember, cats don't eat their prey live.
how much do you want too bet?
they may not eat it live, but cats just LOVE to play with
certain animals and... well I will not go into the gross details
suffice to say that they sometimes leave a still twitching
present for you at times.
but they sure as hell are not the must humane creatures on earth.
: >And most importantly, would you call the ASPCA on someone that
: >refuses to feed live food to a snake and has the snake die because of it?
:
: I don't think I would... But, I don't foresee this happening somewhere where
: I'd see it any time soon.
I have heard of more than a few instances where snakes were underfed
It is nothing more than abuse if you ask me, of course I have yet
to hear of someone getting busted for that.
Florida has a problem with this, people let thier snakes go cause they
cant take care of them, and they can live in fla.
:
Karen M. Bourque
Trying to change them to satisfy our own morals and beliefs on how they
should act is a travesty. We should know by now that when we mess with
the natural balance we inevitably screw it up, in some cases beyond repair.
Snakes in the wild eat animals. Dogs, cats, birds - they all eat other
animals. Just because they happen to be living in your house doesn't mean
they shouldn't be allowed to do what comes naturally to them and follow
their instincts!! What would happen to the rodent or insect or even wild
rabbit population if all their natural carnivore predators were not
allowed to eat them?? Heck, how about deer?? Famine city! That's much
more cruel than a quick (or pretty quick) death...
I am an animal lover - I have a dog, a cat, a rabbit, a frog and a variety
of fish - all are wonderful animals. I am also a pseudo-vegetarian. BUT
I believe that if you are truly an animal lover, you'll let the animals BE
what they were meant to be. (Dogs are slightly different since we've
domesticated them so much).
I don't like picturing a snake eating a kitten - so I won't picture it
anymore. I think that we have to intervene when we see humans abusing
animals, wild or tame, not when we see animals doing their thing with
other animals.
I've said my piece - don't bother flaming me, I'm going on vacation and
all this will be history by the time I get back.
Karen
amy lynn young-leith
>This whole thread kind of reminds me of the Animal Rights echo over on Fidonet,
>where there are more hunting-rights advocates than anything else. It's realy
>kind of disappointing.
>
>The idea of feeding a kitten to a snake is disgusting. And before you jump into
>a bunch of pointless blathering about mice and rats: that is also disgusting.
>Feeding ANY live animal to another animal is disgusting.
>| Mason L. Bliss | What diabolical chicken stepped on your |
>| ma...@cis.umassd.edu | forehead and sat on your chin? |
But it happens in the wild all the time. And the only reason we don't
do it, or something close to it, is because most of us don't have the room to
keep cattle, but rather we visit Kroger now and then.
If a person takes in an animal as a pet who requires live animals in
order to be healthy, then the owner takes the responsability of
providing that. I have known a few snake owners who were animal
lovers in general, but many snakes apparently WON'T eat dead animals.
And most aren't real keen on veggies, either. There isn't much
choice.
amy
--
aly...@kiwi.ucs.indiana.edu Occupation: Lifetime Student
*****************************************************************************
*This post was made on personal time and has nothing to do whatsoever with *
* the attitudes or opinions of Indiana University. *
*****************************************************************************
amy lynn young-leith
>Read what I wrote before you flame. I said "Feeding ANY live animal to
>another animal is disgusting." This would normally imply that the act of
>feeding live prey to something is disgusting, NOT that the animal that eats
>the live prey is disgusting.
Ok folks, keep this tidbit above in mind for future reference...
>Nope. That's still different. There's a bit of a difference between something
>that kills its prey, and something that devours it while it's still living.
I've seen my cat (rest her soul) eat a mouse that was still alive.
Her eating it killed it, but she started to eat it while it was alive.
Her method of digesting the animal killed it, just as a snake's method
will as well.
>As I remember, cats don't eat their prey live.
See above. This is because cats tend to rip and tear their prey,
which in the process kills them. Snakes instead swallow it whole.
>I keep two. And a parakeet, who ALSO doesn't eat his prey live.
But damn they make the biggest mess out of their seeds! I actually
heard a good solution for this in the newspaper... wrap a strip of
cloth around the cage at the same level where the seed is kept. But I
disgress...
>Why? Am I no longer allowed to have an opinion?
Oh, you're allowed to have it, but it sounds really stupid when it's
hypcritical and otherwise full of logical holes.
>>ASPCA on someone feeding mice to a snake? Or goldfish to a pirhana? Or grubs
>>to a lizard?
>That's reaching a bit far, isn't it?
No, it's NOT! And it's because you clearly stated above that feeding
live prey to another animal is disgusting. All the above instances
are the same! You're only upset because apparently a goldfish does't
have as cute a face as a kitten does. My goldfish take offense at
that and if they ever get legs, you better watch it.
If you feel that kittens-snake is wrong then unless you care to do
some creative rationalizing then goldfish-pirhana, grubs-lizard and
mouse-snack should be equally odious.
Paul J Hollander
>
>
>another animal is disgusting." This would normally imply that the act of
>feeding live prey to something is disgusting, NOT that the animal that eats
>the live prey is disgusting.
>
>
>that kills its prey, and something that devours it while it's still living.
>
The way I read this, the objection is to the snake or whatever eating a food
animal while it is still alive, swallowing it still kicking and screaming
(pardon the graphic imagery). It is ok if either the snake or human kills
the food animal *before* it is swallowed. As a long time snake owner, I can
live with this attitude.
Paul Hollander phol...@iastate.edu
Behold the tortoise: he makes no progress unless he sticks his neck out.
--
Paul Hollander phol...@iastate.edu
Behold the tortoise: he makes no progress unless he sticks his neck out.
Brad Laraway
so here's my two cents.
I think feeding a snake or large lizard/monitors live
kittens is pretty bad. I'm also going to be quite hippocratic
and say I don't see any reason they shouldn't feed them rats,
mice and rabbits. My reasoning for this is people raise mice
rats, rabbits and such for feed. I know of no one who raises
cats, dogs, or other house pets for feed animals. Yes I know
there are alot of rabbit owners here, but feed rabbits and
pet rabbits to me are different.
Some one said about snakes are the only animal that eats
its pray alive. Look at that freshly opened oyster and tell me
what you see. It sure in hell aint dead, if it were you'ld know
it and so would the whole resturant. PEE UUU what is that smell.
Also alot of snakes either pioson or constrict thier pray before
dining.
If any one want's to flame me I could careless but flame
me at my email address I think the 20-30 flames and follow ups
are enough. But there I am being a hippocrat again. :0 :)
Hope you all have a safe New Year.
Brad
blar...@encore.com
Emil Volcheck
> I think feeding a snake or large lizard/monitors live
>kittens is pretty bad. I'm also going to be quite hippocratic
>and say I don't see any reason they shouldn't feed them rats,
>mice and rabbits. My reasoning for this is people raise mice
>rats, rabbits and such for feed. I know of no one who raises
>cats, dogs, or other house pets for feed animals. Yes I know
>there are alot of rabbit owners here, but feed rabbits and
>pet rabbits to me are different.
>
> blar...@encore.com
Sorry Brad. I know it would ease your conscience but there really is no
difference between "feed" rabbits and "pet" rabbits except for an arbitrary
label put on them by people. I've known lots of rabbits and the ones that
belong to a breed traditionally used as meat (for people or snakes) have just
as much intelligence and personality as the "pet" breeds like mini-lop or
Netherland Dwarf. Yes, they are prey animals but at least in the wild they
have the chance to get away. I think I'll put in a plug for rats too. In my
experience they are just as intelligent as a dog and make very affectionate
pets. You shouldn't judge an animals worth by some arbitrary label put on them.
--
Nessa
>mice and rabbits. My reasoning for this is people raise mice
>rats, rabbits and such for feed. I know of no one who raises
>cats, dogs, or other house pets for feed animals. Yes I know
>there are alot of rabbit owners here, but feed rabbits and
>pet rabbits to me are different.
But you can be sure that the cats that were being discussed were NOT
RAISED for PET purposes. They simply were allowed to happen by IDIOT
owners who couldn't be bothered to spay their animals and don't want
to live with the results themselves.
So would you try to make the same arguement that ferrets and rats that
are used in labs are different than those used as pets? Guess what?
You would be wrong! Marshall Farms is one of the largest lab suppliers
of ferrets and the only difference between lab and pet ferrets is
the lab ferrets get sent to labs and the pet ferrets get sent to pets. ;)
The distinction you are drawing ONLY EXISTS IN YOUR MIND!
> Some one said about snakes are the only animal that eats
>its pray alive. Look at that freshly opened oyster and tell me
>what you see. It sure in hell aint dead, if it were you'ld know
>it and so would the whole resturant. PEE UUU what is that smell.
Alot of people who squirt oysters with lemon before eating them do so
only because lemon is an irritant and causes the oyster to twich.
The acid effect of the lemon is painful but it lets them (the people)
see that the oyster is alive and kicking. I guess I would like it better
if the oysters SCREAMED while they were being squirted and sliding down
peoples gullets. :) Heh, Heh. Can you imagine the looks on people's
faces if their food screamed in agony and fear? Heeee Heeee! :)
--
Brian & 'Nessa (watched over by) Priscilla & Herman (carpet sharks)
"Maybe it's a gift, a special talent that I, alone, possess!" --Wembley
"Maybe it's a curse, a special weirdness that only you are stuck with!" --Red
Mike Herman
rabbits are one of the rattlesnakes main prey
along with many other snakes.
: --
Operator Console #2
> Nope. That's still different. There's a bit of a difference between something
> that kills its prey, and something that devours it while it's still living.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
I will confess to a limited knowledge base. However as a longtime snake
enthusiest, I feel compelled to point out that snakes prefer their food
quite dead. They may prefer to do the honors themselves, but the prey is
killed before it is consumed.
As far as feeding kittens to snakes, I've seen many a stray kitten/cat go
through hell and high water for lack of a home. If they can be spared the
suffering by being put down, what difference does it make how they go.
( inhumane methods notwithstanding ). I personally wouldn't do it for
the simple fact that kittens sound so pitiful when their dying.
( asbestos suit on ).
Kevin
BTW. No I didn't, it was hit by a car.
Mason Bliss
>I have a snake and have observed it kill (NOT kittens)
>it seems pretty quick for the most part, after all if it
>takes too long the prey can fight back.
But the prey can't have the option of running, like they would out in the
real world...
>have you ever kept or handled a nice tame snake?
>or are you one of those poeple with a phobia and have never
>gotten within 10 feet of one?
I have friends with snakes, and I've handled them. I've had them wrapped
around my neck, so you can't really say I have a phobia of any sort. I
simply find the feeding of live prey to them to be disgusting.
>After all if they didnt have canned dog and cat food, you would need too
>feed them, guess what, probably live mice, rats, or sheep or.......
I certainly wouldn't give them live animals to eat.
>Invent some sort of canned snake food, that will solve the problem
Yes.
Mason Bliss
>> [...] I said "Feeding ANY live animal to
>>another animal is disgusting." This would normally imply that the act of
>>feeding live prey to something is disgusting, NOT that the animal that eats
>>the live prey is disgusting.
>other statements, snakes eating live prey on their own is not palatable to you
Please re-read the text you quoted, above.
>Not much difference there really. A few minutes perhaps.
A few minuters is unacceptably long. Think about this: you're talking about
feeding a defenseless baby animal to a snake! Doesn't that somehow seem
slightly wrong to you?
>If someone fed a dead kitten to a snake, would that be acceptable to you?
While not something I'd want to watch, that would be far more acceptable to me.
>have a problem with feeding them to snakes, even if they're not pets. I feel
>that you're being myopic because you're not looking past emotional attachments
>and other perceptions.
Perhaps.
>THIS soon?), but it would not bother you to let a snake die from neglect?
I would bother me.
>Perhaps you're being a hypocrite.
Perhaps I'm not a big fan of snakes.
>I'm curious as to what the ASPCA's position on this is anyway.
Ditto.
Mason Bliss
>The way I read this, the objection is to the snake or whatever eating a food
>animal while it is still alive, swallowing it still kicking and screaming
>(pardon the graphic imagery). It is ok if either the snake or human kills
>the food animal *before* it is swallowed. As a long time snake owner, I can
>live with this attitude.
That's exactly it. I can't see how an animal CAN'T suffer when a snake eats
it live. Its last moments of life would be filled with fear and pain. I don't
care HOW quick it happens - it still happens that way.
Mason Bliss
>Trying to change them to satisfy our own morals and beliefs on how they
>should act is a travesty.
The main argument here (IMO) is that it's wrong to feed living animals
to each other. Do you go out and get mice for your cat to play with and then
kill? No. (Well, hopefully not, anyway.)
>Snakes in the wild eat animals. Dogs, cats, birds - they all eat other
>animals.
The difference here is that dogs, cats, and birds aren't given live prey
to eat. Other solutions have been found.
>(Dogs are slightly different since we've domesticated them so much).
?
>I've said my piece - don't bother flaming me, I'm going on vacation and
>all this will be history by the time I get back.
--
Susan M. Kennedy
>: >I feel that snake food is a better alternative to dying of exposure, drowning,
>: >gassing, or leathal injection and then having the meat go to waste.
>:
>: Considering how snakes kill their food, I'd rather have a kitten die in ANY
>: of the ways you've just mentioned.
>:
>I have a snake and have observed it kill (NOT kittens)
>it seems pretty quick for the most part, after all if it
>takes too long the prey can fight back.
>(I am not a biolgest so do not take this as serious)
>of course the owner can kill the animal via various means, some
>the same as the humane society if they wish.
I know this isn't the correct follow up sequence(I should have followed Mike
directly) But Mike, have you ever observed a cat kill its prey? Talk about long
drawn out torture! I have cats, dogs, rabbits, and turtles and I believe that if
you are going to have pets you should respect their natural behavior. I
probrably would not feel comfortable about feeding kittens to snakes, but I
would agree that its probably a better way to die than starving, or dying of the
many illnesses that unwanted and neglected cats and kittens suffer, or by being
tortured to death by a cat!
Susan
Sean Eric Fagan
>I
>simply find the feeding of live prey to them to be disgusting.
It's a part of life. (Not that I'd feed kittens to a snake; I will not
feed any animal that's been raised as a pet to any animal.)
>>Invent some sort of canned snake food, that will solve the problem
>Yes.
No, it won't, because many snakes (and other reptiles) simply WILL NOT EAT
pre-killed food. *Period*. I'm lucky: I've got my three snakes, my
monitor, and my tegu all eating prekilled animals. But it took time with
one of the snakes and with the tegu, and I did it mainly because it's
cheaper and easier for me to get frozen rats, mice, and pinks than it
is to keep live ones, or buy live ones every week or so.
But my leopard gecko will not eat pre-killed animals; she has to have live
food. This includes crickets and kingworms right now, but could also include
pinky mice from time to time.
I see no problem with it. The animals are carnivores, predators, and need
to eat other animals.
Again, though, I don't like the thought of feeding kittens to snakes. Mostly
because most kittens are pets, not food animals.
KUDZU
litter) fed to (I think) a python of some sort. It was a very big snake.
Anyway, we were both drunk and she said "Wanna see something cool?"...I, of
course, nodded. She got up, went upstairs, and later came down with the
cutest black ball of fur, which I discovered was a leeeeetle baby kitten.
Before I really realized what was going on, she pulled the sort of chicken-wire
cover off the snake's cage and dumped the kitten in. The cat tried to get out,
maybe sensing what was going to happen. Katie had to flick the snake a
couple times "to wake her up", and after some inspecting on the snake's part,
it struck and coiled around the kitty. I didn't really watch anymore and the
harsh high-pitched meowing (which stopped all too soon) was getting to me.
But, after some prompting from her ("You just GOTTA watch THIS!") I turned my
eyes back to the snake-pen just for the eating part. I have to admit, it WAS
kinda cool to watch, but as I watched the snake gobble that cat whole, I kept
hearing the Pringles commercial announcer "You can't eat JUST ONE!"
In retrospect, I can't see why anyone would find the natural act of feeding
anything but beautiful...
-Kudzu
--
##*##*##*##*##*##*##*##*## Satan is GOOD ##*##*##*##*##*##*##*##*##*##
#chr...@cie-2.uoregon.edu# Satan is OUR PAL # Per ardua ad astra #
##*##*##*##*##*##*##*##*## Satan drives a PLOW ##*##*##*##*##*##*##*##*##*##
Satan says "MEOW!"
Mason Bliss
> I've seen a kitten (a very small one, maybe a runt from the owner's cat's
>litter) fed to (I think) a python of some sort. It was a very big snake.
> Anyway, we were both drunk and she said "Wanna see something cool?"...I, of
>course, nodded. She got up, went upstairs, and later came down with the
>cutest black ball of fur, which I discovered was a leeeeetle baby kitten.
>Before I really realized what was going on, she pulled the sort of chicken-wire
>cover off the snake's cage and dumped the kitten in. The cat tried to get out,
>maybe sensing what was going to happen. Katie had to flick the snake a
>couple times "to wake her up", and after some inspecting on the snake's part,
>it struck and coiled around the kitty. I didn't really watch anymore and the
>harsh high-pitched meowing (which stopped all too soon) was getting to me.
>But, after some prompting from her ("You just GOTTA watch THIS!") I turned my
>eyes back to the snake-pen just for the eating part. I have to admit, it WAS
>kinda cool to watch, but as I watched the snake gobble that cat whole, I kept
>hearing the Pringles commercial announcer "You can't eat JUST ONE!"
> In retrospect, I can't see why anyone would find the natural act of feeding
>anything but beautiful...
Gee, you're cool.
Well, folks, this pretty much sums it up for me.
KUDZU
: Gee, you're cool.
: Well, folks, this pretty much sums it up for me.
Seeing a snake eating a kitten didn't make me feel cool...Realizing that
there was nothing dirty or disgusting in animals eating each other did. I
remember someone saying that the whole problem of feeding snakes live animals
would be cured if they just sold snake food in a can. That flesh has to come
from somewhere, folks...Why have it processed into some nice solid chunk of
nutrition just because you can't stomache watching nature at work. I think I
speak for all the snakes out there...
Varanus salvadorii
rec.pets, not rec.pets.herp.
In <CIt23...@umassd.edu> ma...@cis.umassd.edu (Mason Bliss) writes:
>I certainly wouldn't give them live animals to eat.
Mason, Mason, Mason... we need to have a reality check here. Some
cats or dogs will eat vegetable matter, but they won't live a happy healthy
life on it. You do want your cat/dog to lead a happy, healthy life don't
you?
Well, face facts then. The animal matter, as some labels call it, in most
cat or dog food was once alive, and didn't die a humane death! For that
matter, the burger you ate at McDonald's last night was once a living,
breathing cow that had it's throat cut so you could pay $2 for a warm burger.
Visit a slaughter house sometime. It will change the way you think about
eating meat. If you are realistic about it, you'll think like me (Heaven
Forbid!) If you are a idealist, like you seem, you'll fight to change the
method of killing. The other two options are: you'll black out and forget
the whole incident, or you'll become a vegetarian animal rights activist and
set all your pets free where they will die from starvation.
Maybe you are a vegetarian. That's your choice to make for yourself. You can
make the choice for your pets too, but would that be moral? To force your
feelings on your pet, let alone the rest of us and our animal companions?
Think about it for a while, and get back to us.
BTW... I do not now, nor will I in the forseeable future, feed cats to my
snakes. I just won't let people shove THEIR morality down MY throat
as I stand in back mouth open in disbelief.
Tailchaser
>
> Seeing a snake eating a kitten didn't make me feel cool...Realizing that
>there was nothing dirty or disgusting in animals eating each other did. I
>remember someone saying that the whole problem of feeding snakes live animals
>would be cured if they just sold snake food in a can. That flesh has to come
>from somewhere, folks...Why have it processed into some nice solid chunk of
>nutrition just because you can't stomache watching nature at work. I think I
>speak for all the snakes out there...
I haven't had much personal tastelessness with snakes. Even my brother's
rattler won't eat the mouse he put in the cage... damn thing's been there a
month and nests on the other side of the aquarium...
Jim Davis <jad...@tntech.edu>
MOV AH, 4C
INT 21
KUDZU
: I haven't had much personal tastelessness with snakes. Even my brother's
: rattler won't eat the mouse he put in the cage... damn thing's been there a
: month and nests on the other side of the aquarium...
I don't know much about snakes but I do know that they don't eat often...
I believe the snake I wrote about hadn't eaten for a couple weeks and Katie,
the owner said that it can go a month or more (?) without chow.
Geoff Miller
In article <2ft81d$8...@pith.uoregon.edu> chr...@cie-2.uoregon.edu (KUDZU)
writes:
> I don't know much about snakes but [...]
Neither do I, but I know what I like.
Geoff
--
-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-
Geoff Miller + + + + + + + + Mountain View
geo...@netcom.com + DoD #0996 + California
-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-
Jazmyn Concolor
>In <CIpzK...@news.iastate.edu> phol...@iastate.edu (Paul J Hollander) writes:
>
>>The way I read this, the objection is to the snake or whatever eating a food
>>animal while it is still alive, swallowing it still kicking and screaming
>>(pardon the graphic imagery). It is ok if either the snake or human kills
>>the food animal *before* it is swallowed. As a long time snake owner, I can
>>live with this attitude.
>
>That's exactly it. I can't see how an animal CAN'T suffer when a snake eats
>it live. Its last moments of life would be filled with fear and pain. I don't
>care HOW quick it happens - it still happens that way.
Snakes eat their prey head first, thus sufficating it quickly. Cats play
with their food till it dies from fear, shock or blood loss. Snakes seem
much more humane..
Jazmyn Concolor
>In <2fnk1m$g...@slab.mtholyoke.edu> kbou...@mtholyoke.edu (Karen M. Bourque) writes:
>
>>Trying to change them to satisfy our own morals and beliefs on how they
>>should act is a travesty.
>
>The main argument here (IMO) is that it's wrong to feed living animals
>to each other. Do you go out and get mice for your cat to play with and then
>kill? No. (Well, hopefully not, anyway.)
>
>>Snakes in the wild eat animals. Dogs, cats, birds - they all eat other
>>animals.
>
>The difference here is that dogs, cats, and birds aren't given live prey
>to eat. Other solutions have been found.
Funny..My parents cats eat rats, mice, gophers and small rabbits. But they
are 'barn' cats, not pampered house cats. The 'house cat' gets Science Diet
and wouldn't know what to do with a mouse if you stuck one in his mouth and
said 'lunchtime'..
michael moncur
- There are people who believe that it's okay to feed "non-pet"
animals to another animal.
- There are also people who believe that it's NOT okay.
- Each person has his own definition of what's a "pet" and what's
a "non-pet".
- There are people who don't eat meat.
- There are people who do.
- There are people who think that everyone else should share
their moral viewpoint.
- There are people who are offended by that suggestion.
Seeing that people have far too many differing opinions to ever
reach a settlement, I've taken the liberty of interviewing several
"non-people".
My pet cat, Linda, 9 months, is offended by the thought but says
that it doesn't really bother her so long as she doesn't know the kittens.
I don't own a snake, but I was able to reach one on the phone; she
doesn't understand all the fuss and says "We're perfectly happy with
rats".
Perdita, Greta, and Elsie, my pet rats, are offended by the above
suggestion and more in favor of the kitten idea, with Linda as their
first suggestion.
My pet mouse refused to be awakened for comment.
Let's call the whole thing off.
--
~` michael moncur, BC, OEADM - m...@xmission.com - m...@world.std.com ~`
"Inform all the troops that communications have completely broken down."
-- Ashleigh Brilliant
robert gruen
> That's exactly it. I can't see how an animal CAN'T suffer when a snake eats
> it live. Its last moments of life would be filled with fear and pain. I don't
> care HOW quick it happens - it still happens that way.
Don't you think that the last moments of life of most animals in the wild are
filled with fear and pain (even lots of people these days). Besides most
snakes kill the animal first (at least mine do and I can guarantee that my
caiman does). How do you think the cow at the slaughter house feels right
before they kill him? What do you think your cat would do to a mouse in the
wild. When I lived at home my mom's cat would roam the yard occasionally and
we would pick up decapitated birds and mice from time to time. Maybe we should
ban people from letting their cats out in the yard...
*sheesh*
--
Bob
John William Kuthe
KUDZU <chr...@cie-2.uoregon.edu> wrote:
>Mason Bliss (ma...@cis.umassd.edu) wrote:
>
>: Gee, you're cool.
>
>: Well, folks, this pretty much sums it up for me.
>
> Seeing a snake eating a kitten didn't make me feel cool...Realizing that
>there was nothing dirty or disgusting in animals eating each other did. I
Yeah, this guy sounds like one of those types that gets upset when a film
crew goes to Africa and films a cheetah chasing down and nabbing an antelope,
and is all pissed off because the film crew *could* have saved the poor
antelope. Yeah, right, and they shoulda saved that poor choad you ate
last night, too!
I used to have a boa, and watching it eat was great. The adrenaline rush you
get just as the snake strikes is pretty powerful, and there's no way I
ever found to avoid it, no matter how you prepared yourself for the strike.
And the way those little rat eyes opo out whilst the squeezing commences
is pretty cool. And the blood that oozes from the mouth of the prey is just
gravy for the snake!
Never got to feed my snake a kitten, though. Sounds like a great idea,
though. I'd thought of it, just my snake wasn't quite big enough.
I *did* get to buy a gerbil once from a department store from a clerk who
didn't want to sell it to me when she heard what I was going to do with it.
Bitch actually refused to box up the little rodent for me, so I went up
to see the store manager, and while waving a $10 in his face, conplained
how this pet dept. clerk's ethics were getting in the way of my snake's
lunch! I was pissed, too! He said that he'd take care of it, and to go back
down to pets and try again. When I got back to the pet dept, the clerk
was still on the phone with the boss man, judging from her submissive
attitude on the phone. I stood there until she got off the phone, and she
then turned to me and said, "Ma I help you?" and I said, "Yes, I'd like
to buy a gerbil." We went over to the gerbil cages, and I pointed out
one and said, "I'd like *that* one." She boxed it up, I paid her, and
she was very quiet the whole time. I said, "Thank you" and left.
The snake snapped up that piece of rodent, too! Just wish the clerk could've
watched! Hee hee!
--
John Kuthe, aka jw...@cec.wustl.edu, St. Louis, MO.
First Job of Government: Protect people from govermment.
Second Job of Government: Protect people each other
It must *never* be the job of government to protect people from themselves.
#insert <stddisclaimer.h> (stolen without permission from someone)
Mason Bliss
> Snakes eat their prey head first, thus sufficating it quickly. Cats play
>with their food till it dies from fear, shock or blood loss. Snakes seem
>much more humane..
My main objection is still that a person has to go out and decide to get
something living, and then place it in a confined place where it has no
chance of escape, where it will end up dead, shortly. That seems unbelievably
cruel to me.
Look back at that posting from christ@wherever for a graphic, real-life
description of what we're talking about, and tell me it's a nice, humane way
for a baby cat to die.
Mason Bliss
>Mason, Mason, Mason... we need to have a reality check here.
Okay. Let's do it!
>Some cats or dogs will eat vegetable matter, but they won't live a happy
>healthy life on it.
<jaw drops> Are you serious?
>You do want your cat/dog to lead a happy, healthy life don't you?
Why, of course! <genuine, sincere nod>
>Well, face facts then. The animal matter, as some labels call it, in most
>cat or dog food was once alive, and didn't die a humane death!
Hm... Haven't we gone over this part in our little discussion already?
>For that
>matter, the burger you ate at McDonald's last night was once a living,
>breathing cow that had it's throat cut so you could pay $2 for a warm burger.
No... I don't believe it! You mean it's not processed soybean?!?
>Visit a slaughter house sometime. It will change the way you think about
>eating meat.
Does having friends who raise, kill, and eat livestock count?
[...]
>the whole incident, or you'll become a vegetarian animal rights activist and
>set all your pets free where they will die from starvation.
There's a sound, logical jump.
>Maybe you are a vegetarian.
Nah... I was a couple years ago, but I decided that as long as I maintain
the proper respect for the animal and value its sacrafice, then it's okay
to eat meat.
>That's your choice to make for yourself.
Why, thank you kindly.
>You can make the choice for your pets too, but would that be moral?
Why, no, it wouldn't, Varanus. Your point? I don't remember ever saying that
I feed my cats greens...
>BTW... I do not now, nor will I in the forseeable future, feed cats to my
>snakes.
That's good, Varanus! I'm glad to hear it.
>I just won't let people shove THEIR morality down MY throat
>as I stand in back mouth open in disbelief.
Fair enough.
Sean Johnson
Anyone interested in joining the AMERICAN RABBIT BREEDERS ASSOCIATION
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Kevin D. Quitt
I was originally of the opinion that there was nothing wrong with
feeding cats or dogs to snakes given that they are not obtained
fraudulently. Pets are pets, some are food. OTOH, my wife points out
that of all the species, only two chose us: cats and dogs. All the
others have been domesticated primarily for food purposes, some for
burdens.
This makes the status of cats and dogs different from the others:
they're not just pets, they're companion animals. As such, I believe
they deserve special treatment, and should be immune from being food.
My wife is horrified that this is 'merely' an intellectual choice, and
not a visceral one (like her). I wouldn't get hot and bothered about
someone feeding kittens to a snake, but I would recommend against it,
and would not do it myself.
--
#include <standard.disclaimer>
_
Kevin D Quitt 91351-4454 96.37% of all statistics are made up
vineland expatriate
>
>fraudulently. Pets are pets, some are food. OTOH, my wife points out
>that of all the species, only two chose us: cats and dogs. All the
I'm sorry, but this puzzles me. Cats and dogs "chose us?" Having had cats,
dogs and snakes at various times, I was blissfully unaware that cats and dogs
had been domesticated at their request. Can someone elaborate on that for me
please?
Kevin Kretz
> of all the species, only two chose us: cats and dogs.
The only thing my girlfriend's roommate's cat chooses to do is piss
on my sweater. Well, _chose_ to to. Because I _chose_ to kick the shit out
of it and it ran away, hopefully to die somewhere.
Anyone who owns a big snake and is too squeamish/guilty to feed it any
kind of cat, give me a call. I'll throw it in - after I beat its head around
so the snake can smell the blood.
Bon appetit,
Kevin
Adam Beneschan
>In article <kdqCIv...@netcom.com> k...@netcom.com (Kevin D. Quitt) writes:
>>
>>fraudulently. Pets are pets, some are food. OTOH, my wife points out
>>that of all the species, only two chose us: cats and dogs. All the
> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>I'm sorry, but this puzzles me. Cats and dogs "chose us?" Having had cats,
>dogs and snakes at various times, I was blissfully unaware that cats and dogs
>had been domesticated at their request. Can someone elaborate on that for me
>please?
I don't recall the details, but I read about this some years ago in
one of the news magazines---I believe it was _U.S. News and World
Report_. The article was about the theory put forth by some
researchers, that for certain animals, domestication wasn't just
something we humans decided to do, but was instead sought out, or
offered in some sense, by the animals. The theory is that the animals
somehow knew, instinctively, that the species would not survive unless
they made friends with the humans, so they started hanging around the
humans' homes. Like I said, I'm not sure of the details, and it
probably isn't literally true just the way I said this, but the gist
of the theory is that the four-legged animals, rather than the humans,
made the first move. (I was also under the impression that the theory
applied to animals besides just dogs and cats, but I could be wrong.)
Besides, I don't think you could force cats to be domesticated unless
they felt like it, and even then, they'd try to convince us that it
was all the cats' idea in the first place. :-)
-- Adam
Michael Landman
|> Mason Bliss (idiot) (ma...@cis.umassd.edu) wrote:
|>
|> : Gee, you're cool.
|>
|> : Well, folks, this pretty much sums it up for me.
|>
[reply by Kudzu follows...]
|> Seeing a snake eating a kitten didn't make me feel cool...Realizing that
|> there was nothing dirty or disgusting in animals eating each other did. I
|> remember someone saying that the whole problem of feeding snakes live animals
|> would be cured if they just sold snake food in a can. That flesh has to come
|> from somewhere, folks...Why have it processed into some nice solid chunk of
|> nutrition just because you can't stomache watching nature at work. I think I
|> speak for all the snakes out there...
|>
|> -Kudzu
|> --
Kudzu, don't feel like you have to apologize to this dork who
is obviously a cat lover. If all he can say is 'gee, you're cool' to an
article which describes kitty death, he should *not* be in alt.tastless.
I bet he wasn't around for the flame war between our group and
rec.pets.cats. He would have had to say 'gee, you're cool' 30 times a day.
Mason, take your kitty and go to another newsgroup. Pray that kitty never
comes near me or my car. (Not that I've ever really killed one before,
[sorry, not a true diehard], but Mason's kitty would tempt me.)
--
*********************************
* My opinions, not Cabletron's. *
*Stupid People Shouldn't Breathe*
* lan...@ctron.com *
*********************************
Michael Landman
[Caps screaming intentional..]
THEN UNSUBSCRIBE FROM ALT.TASTELESS!
I remember when this newgroup used to be alt.tasteless. Now
it seems to be alt.sometimes.tastless.unless.we.talk.about.little.kitties.
which.is.kind.of.a.sensitive.point.with.some.readers.so.please.tone.down.
the.posts.thank.you.very.much
alt.tastless is *exactly* where these types of posts go, so
people who don't find this stuff offensive can discuss and enjoy it with
out pissing off you little momma's boys.
alt.i'm.late.for.my.church.choir/.kitty.worship.meeting is
the newsgroup you should be in if these types of posts *offend* you!
Leave!
p.s. I'm not even *for* the idea of feeding cats and dogs to snakes,
just against the idea about people complaining about it in a newgroup
such as alt.tasteless
Christopher Aedo
>
>...of all the species, only two chose us: cats and dogs...
That's an interesting thought your wife brings up, but it's pretty
unqualified and unlikely. Cats and dogs did not choose to become
domesticated and live in our homes, they were _trained_ to be like
that.
It is comletely conceivable that rather than cats and dogs, our
ancestors decided they liked rats and goats. After decades of specialized
and selective breeding and lots and lots of training, each animal
could well take the place of the cat and dog. Hell, what about pigs?
Are there just a few "special" pigs that have the desire to be house
pets, companions to man and woman? Heh, they even had a friendly pet
pig on Green Acers.
Ahh, I think your theory is pretty weak.
With regard to kittens and such as food, I think it's great. My uncle
on his farm just takes the cute little kittys, puts 'em in a burlap
sack, and holds 'em under water in the kiddie pool until they stop
bubbling. If he had a snake or 6, he could feed the snakes well rather
than just offing the cats like that.
That's just my opinion. I am right though. It's a fact. I always am.
-Christopher Aedo (u56...@uicvm.uic.edu)
KUDZU
: Kudzu, don't feel like you have to apologize to this dork who
: is obviously a cat lover. If all he can say is 'gee, you're cool' to an
: article which describes kitty death, he should *not* be in alt.tastless.
Ho ho ho...My bad! I took the liberty of cross-posting the Kittens as snake
food: Illegal? thread from rec.pets and rec.pets.herp (with herpes?) as I
thought someone in alt.tasteless would get a kick out of my Disappearing
Kitty Trick description.
Besides I think the newsgroups are so similar, hardly anyone would notice...
Jo Miller
lan...@ccmailpc.ctron.com writes:
>{another do-as-I-say-not-as-I-do defense of tastelessness}
I like cats. I also like snakes, and I've watched with interest the
critters that go down the gullets of each. (Owls are even better, but
let's stick to snakes and cats.) Feeding time at the Boston Museum of
Science meant dumping out a large box of frozen white mice into a sink of
warm running water to thaw. Scores of tiny bodies, frozen in various
positions but all floating on their backs, making lazy circles around the
water--they looked like they ought to be wearing sunglasses and sipping
iced tea. When thawed, the soggy rodents were thrown to the snakes (and
owls) who gobbled them down like popcorn shrimp.
Cats--well, personally I find their eating habits more entertaining, as
they don't merely swallow something whole and then lie there digesting
for days. I've watched one of my cats bite the head of a mole stupid
enough to rear up and screech at her rather than running like hell. I've
seen them trot proudly across the yard with snakes in their mouths
(looking like Victorian mustaches) to spit the perforated corpses at my
feet. Chipmunks and mice remain mostly intact with their necks broken,
but birds get turned inside out before being deposited on the living room
rug for me to step into barefoot. Even better are the animals that make
a brief trip to the cat's stomach and back: a pile of regurgitated rat,
tail and all, or a horrible alien-looking thing at the end of a rope of
hurl that turns out, upon closer inspection, to be an enormous cicada.
(I do wish my cat would break the habit of jumping up onto my desk next
to the computer to lick her ass after taking a shit, which is what she's
doing now.)
Jo
Laura Johnson
: offered in some sense, by the animals. The theory is that the animals
: somehow knew, instinctively, that the species would not survive unless
: they made friends with the humans, so they started hanging around the
: humans' homes. Like I said, I'm not sure of the details, and it
This isn't so hard to picture. I don't know about "somehow knew...the
species would not survive", but here's my idea of (say) cats becoming
domesticated.
1. wild cat sees human garbage, comes near homes to get garbage
2. this strategy is so successful that garbage (rather than prey) becomes
primary food source for cats in area
3. friendly cats get garbage + handouts; unfriendly cats get shot on sight
4. friendly cats survive and multiply; unfriendly tendencies are
eliminated (ok, reduced)
5. after many generations, local cat population is friendly, cute, and
living on handouts!
In this scenario, I wouldn't exactly say humans domesticated the cats. It
is more like cats choosing to become domestic.
--
Laura Johnson (lau...@fc.hp.com)
Learning Products Engineer
Hewlett Packard NSMD
Fort Collins, Colorado
Paul J Hollander
>In <jazmynCI...@netcom.com> jaz...@netcom.com (Jazmyn Concolor) writes:
>
>> Snakes eat their prey head first, thus sufficating it quickly. Cats play
>>with their food till it dies from fear, shock or blood loss. Snakes seem
>>much more humane..
>
>My main objection is still that a person has to go out and decide to get
>something living, and then place it in a confined place where it has no
>chance of escape, where it will end up dead, shortly. That seems unbelievably
>cruel to me.
>
>Look back at that posting from christ@wherever for a graphic, real-life
>description of what we're talking about, and tell me it's a nice, humane way
>for a baby cat to die.
I did look back. You are confusing the act of constriction, which killed the
kitten, with the act of swallowing, which came after the kitten was dead. You
have already said that eating the kitten is OK if it is killed before it is
swallowed. That is what was described.
In one of the stupider episodes of my youth, a friend put a strangle hold on
me, and I passed out. IMHO, a rather pleasant way to go, as great calmness
followed the initial panic. Probably far more pleasant than starvation or
illness. But I don't know of any nice humane ways to die if one has strength
to fight it. IMHO, there are only ways that are more humane than other ways.
And dieing of old age is not necessarily the most humane way to go. Not that
most animals have that option.
Paul Hollander phol...@iastate.edu
Behold the tortoise: he makes no progress unless he sticks his neck out.
--
michael moncur
> [Caps screaming intentional..]
> THEN UNSUBSCRIBE FROM ALT.TASTELESS!
It should be pointed out that most of the posts to alt.tasteless
are probably unintentional; this thread contains the unlikely
newsgroup header of
Newsgroups: rec.pets,rec.pets.herp,alt.tasteless.
Apparently sometime during this lovely debate someone decided that
it was tasteless and should be crossposted appropriately.
I've set the followups for this post to just the two pets
newsgroups, and I suggest that others do the same. In fact I suggest
that everyone ignore this post and everything else in the thread
completely, and let's go back to discussing pets in rec.pets and
tasteless things in alt.tasteless, and everyone can be happy.
michael "Lucky nobody's crossposted to rec.pets.cats yet" moncur
--
~` michael moncur, BC, OEADM - m...@xmission.com - m...@world.std.com ~`
"'Tis an ill wind that blows no minds." -- Malaclypse the Younger
Sean Eric Fagan
>OTOH, my wife points out
>that of all the species, only two chose us: cats and dogs.
Wrong. So did rats, crickets, and cockroaches. Others as well, I'm sure,
but those are the ones I can think of off the top of my head, and all three
are not uncommonly considered pets.
amy lynn young-leith
>My main objection is still that a person has to go out and decide to get
>something living, and then place it in a confined place where it has no
>chance of escape, where it will end up dead, shortly. That seems unbelievably
>cruel to me.
The decision is really made when the person obtains the pet that
requires live food. After that, if you remain committed to the care
of that pet, there is no other decisions.
>Look back at that posting from christ@wherever for a graphic, real-life
>description of what we're talking about, and tell me it's a nice, humane way
>for a baby cat to die.
Is it humane for cats and other animals to be hit by cars on the road?
Do you drive or ride in any type of moving vehicle?
Is it humane for animals to be killed and eaten when humans aren't
around? Are you out in the forest writing up coyotes for killing
squirrels?
And I will ask again WHY it's not, in your view, equally cruel to feed
live rodents such as mice and rats to snakes, OR for cats to play with
these same rodents until they die?
amy
--
aly...@kiwi.ucs.indiana.edu Occupation: Lifetime Student
*****************************************************************************
*This post was made on personal time and has nothing to do whatsoever with *
* the attitudes or opinions of Indiana University. *
*****************************************************************************
amy lynn young-leith
>there was nothing dirty or disgusting in animals eating each other did. I
>remember someone saying that the whole problem of feeding snakes live animals
>would be cured if they just sold snake food in a can. That flesh has to come
>from somewhere, folks...Why have it processed into some nice solid chunk of
>nutrition just because you can't stomache watching nature at work.
For the same reason that people gobble up McDonalds four times a week,
and buy ten pounds of hamburger every payday but then scream that
feeding kittens to snakes is horrible... because if you've never seen
it and cannot visualize it, it doesn't affect you as much.
Most people have seen a kitten and a snake, and have strong emotional
attachments to the former and revulsion for the latter.
Every person I've known who has visited a slaughterhouse has gone
vegetarian for at LEAST some amount of time, and/or gotten physically
ill the next time they saw/smelled/tasted meat.
Humans somehow feel they are morally removed from the fact that
animals die for their nutrituion simply because they don't operate the
machine that drives a bolt through the cow's forehead, thus killing
it. They feel that somehow it's "different" for humans.
Animals eating animals is much more "natural" than human (animals)
eating animals because the former do so for their only sustinence.
Humans eat also for social reasons, and ignore vegetarian
alternatives.
By the way folks, I'm a meat eater. Because I think it's natural to
be a meat eater, but I do not agree with the way in which animals are
farmed and try to put my money in the appropriate place.
My husband grew up on a farm. He told me that some of their cows were
pets. He and I discovered a HUGE discrepency in our views in this
area because I, personally, would die myself before I would _kill_ and
eat someone (and yes, animals who I call "pets" are a someone) I cared
for. The thought of having a "pet" one day and then eating them the
next made me physically ill when we were discussing this.
The thought of eating a kitten makes me sick. The thought of feeding
a live ANYTHING to a snake bothers me, so I don't keep snakes. Now
whether it's "more humane" for a kitten to be euthenized in a shelter
or fed to a snake is some bizaar subjective judgement that I don't
think is really worth making.
But what gets me is the HYPOCRISY of some of the people here, who are
screaming that it's sick to do this to one type of animal, but
apparently fine to do to another!
Is it more humane to be given a shot and slowly lose consciousness, or
to be constricted and lose consciousness? I don't know, but they are,
in the very least, really really close.
amy
ps. excuse' moi for the rambling, I just sorta got on a roll....
amy lynn young-leith
wrote:
>No... I don't believe it! You mean it's not processed soybean?!?
Well, if you have a McLean...
>Does having friends who raise, kill, and eat livestock count?
No, I'm afraid it's not. There is nothing, and I mean NOTHING which
can really compare to having to visit a slaughterhouse. No stories,
however long and graphic, or even videotape. You miss the utterly
sickening feel in the air, and the stench of blood and other various
entrails that will give you nightmares for months.
>Nah... I was a couple years ago, but I decided that as long as I maintain
>the proper respect for the animal and value its sacrafice, then it's okay
>to eat meat.
Oh, ok. A "Thank you m'am and pass the beef" makes up for the last
three minutes of a cows life where they were bleeding to death from a
gash all across their neck, which I would imagine hurts pretty damn
bad.
I have to say it, I'm sorry, but you are a fucking hypocrite and you
make me sick.
amy
amy lynn young-leith
>The main argument here (IMO) is that it's wrong to feed living animals
>to each other. Do you go out and get mice for your cat to play with and then
>kill? No. (Well, hopefully not, anyway.)
So it's okay to allow, as long as you do not actively provide? In
other words, letting the cat use a mouse as a tetherball in the back
hard is okay because, even though this isn't necessary to the cat's
survival, whereas it IS for a snake, you didn't give them mouse to
them in the first place.
>The difference here is that dogs, cats, and birds aren't given live prey
>to eat. Other solutions have been found.
BUT THEY ALL WERE ALIVE AT ONE TIME OR ANOTHER? So is it okay to kill
the kitten/mouse/rat and THEN give it to the snake?
Would it then be "alright" by you to allow your snake out for a romp
in the backyard, and if he happened upon one of the woodland creatures
that lived there, you would have no problems with his meal then?
Jazmyn Concolor
My SOs rat, Silvyn and my mice, Microsoft, Lotus, Novella, Indigo and
(unnamed) all agree that kittens are fine as snake food. My SOs cat, Sable
was too busy clawing the screen door to shreads to be reached for comment, but
would probably opt for puppies instead of kittens.
Jose Marques
>feeding cats or dogs to snakes given that they are not obtained
>fraudulently. Pets are pets, some are food. OTOH, my wife points out
>that of all the species, only two chose us: cats and dogs. All the
>others have been domesticated primarily for food purposes, some for
>burdens.
>
>This makes the status of cats and dogs different from the others:
>they're not just pets, they're companion animals. As such, I believe
to domesticate them. Why reward stupidity? After all we already
vote for it.
>they deserve special treatment, and should be immune from being food.
as food animals first. There was a bit in the Guardian newspaper a few
weeks back about canibalism in some remote parts of china during the
culturural revolution. Not only did they kill their enemies but they eat
them too! The victims were butchered in the street and groups of
'gourmets' discussed which parts were the best. I believe that the
heart and liver were most valued. One bit I found most amusing was a
description of a jilted girlfriend who killed he ex-boyfriends father
and eat his heart. How about that for revenge.
>
>My wife is horrified that this is 'merely' an intellectual choice, and
>not a visceral one (like her). I wouldn't get hot and bothered about
>someone feeding kittens to a snake, but I would recommend against it,
>and would not do it myself.
>--
>#include <standard.disclaimer>
> _
>Kevin D Quitt 91351-4454 96.37% of all statistics are made up
Jose Marques, VM & VSE Systems Programmer
%INCLUDE STDSCLMR
robert gruen
>> wild. When I lived at home my mom's cat would roam the yard occasionally and
>> we would pick up decapitated birds and mice from time to time.
To which Mason responds:
> But I'm going to bet ya that you didn't take your cat and put it in a
> box or tank, and then drop in a mouse... See the difference?
To which I say:
Oh...yes I do see the difference. Now lets examine these differences
through a quick question & answer game.
Q. Snakes are kept in cages because...?
A. A snake will not come running for dinner when its name is called. This
can make it difficult to find a snake that doesn't want to be found if it
has been roaming the house freely for several hours. The fact that snakes
are also not generally potty trained doesn't help either.
Q. Cats are not kept in cages because...?
A. They will generally respond to a few verbal commands from their owner
(ie. come and eat). They can generally be trained to use the litter box.
Q. If cats did not listen to their master at all and could not be trained to
use the box, would they be kept in cages?
A. Sometimes.
Q. Would it be easier to feed a cat like this in a cage?
A. Seems likely.
Q. What would cats eats if there was no canned cat food?
A. Probably small live/dead mice, birds and other prey.
Q. Where does the meat that is in cat & dog food come from?
A. Duh. Do I really have to answer this one?
Snakes are not domestic animals like cats and dogs and thus one should not
expect to treat/feed a snake like a cat or dog. From your what you have said
I can only assume that you belive NO ONE should be allowed to keep these
animals as pets because YOU don't like the way they NEED to eat. Why impose
your morals on others? Just don't own one yourself. Is it wrong to own fish
because the fish is kept confined to a small tank when it could be out swimming
in a lake?
See the difference?
--
Bob
Jovanka F Kink
take no pleasure in the death of any animal, but at the same time I realize
that, if I keep predators as pets, I have the responsibility of providing them
with appropriate prey. The alternative is not to keep predatory animals, and
for those of us who love them, it would make life that much less enjoyable and
meaningful.
I take it you have no objection to feeding *dead* animals to another
animal? Guess what -- the contents of that dog or cat food can was once a live
animal too. But it's okay as long as you don't have to see it, right?
Sorry to sound so ticked-off, but that's the reaction your kind of reply
is evoking for me. My feeling on the kitten question is, yes, to be up-front
with the person you're getting the kittens from, and not to be upset if they're
not willing to give you the kittens if they know they will become snake food.
I'd feel bad thinking that I got kittens from someone who genuinely believed
they would go to a good home; however if the person knew, and had no problem
with it, I probably wouldn't feel bad about feeding unwanted kittens to my
snakes. It is, indeed, a quick death, and better than many of the
alternatives.
--Raksha
Jovanka F Kink
also has its last moments filled with pain and fear. And those last moments
generally last a lot longer than death by constriction or envenomation.
--Raksha
MajorBBS: The Magic Forest
IL>|> Mason Bliss (idiot) (ma...@cis.umassd.edu) wrote:
IL>|>
IL>|> : Gee, you're cool.
IL>|>
IL>|> : Well, folks, this pretty much sums it up for me.
IL>|>
IL> [reply by Kudzu follows...]
IL>|> Seeing a snake eating a kitten didn't make me feel cool...Realizing tha
IL>|> there was nothing dirty or disgusting in animals eating each other did. I
IL>|> remember someone saying that the whole problem of feeding snakes live
IL>animals
IL>|> would be cured if they just sold snake food in a can. That flesh has to
IL>come
AL>|> from somewhere, folks...Why have it processed into some nice solid chunk
IL>|> nutrition just because you can't stomache watching nature at work. I thi
IL>I
IL>|> speak for all the snakes out there...
IL>|>
IL>|> -Kudzu
IL>|> --
IL> Kudzu, don't feel like you have to apologize to this dork who
IL>is obviously a cat lover. If all he can say is 'gee, you're cool' to an
IL>article which describes kitty death, he should *not* be in alt.tastless.
IL> I bet he wasn't around for the flame war between our group and
IL>rec.pets.cats. He would have had to say 'gee, you're cool' 30 times a day.
IL>Mason, take your kitty and go to another newsgroup. Pray that kitty never
BL>comes near me or my car. (Not that I've ever really killed one before,
IL>--
IL>*********************************
IL>* My opinions, not Cabletron's. *
IL>*Stupid People Shouldn't Breathe*
IL>* lan...@ctron.com *
IL>*********************************
Then Tell me ......why are you around still sucking up air??????
Vlad Lasky
>on his farm just takes the cute little kittys, puts 'em in a burlap
>sack, and holds 'em under water in the kiddie pool until they stop
>bubbling. If he had a snake or 6, he could feed the snakes well rather
>than just offing the cats like that.
>
mowing the lawn? Or tying them to a tree by their tails with a stick of
dynamite up their arses?
Them was the days.
Cheryl
Michael Landman <lan...@ctron.com> wrote:
> [Caps screaming intentional..]
>
> THEN UNSUBSCRIBE FROM ALT.TASTELESS!
>
> alt.tastless is *exactly* where these types of posts go, so
>people who don't find this stuff offensive can discuss and enjoy it with
>out pissing off you little momma's boys.
Look, buddy, I wouldn't subscribe to alt.tasteless if you paid me, and
neither would a lot of people reading rec.pets. If you bozos from
alt.tasteless would quit cross-posting crap over here then we wouldn't
have to read it. Read *these* caps: QUIT CROSS-POSTING TO REC.PETS AND
REC.PETS.HERPS! Or quit your bellyaching about alt.tasteless. We're not
reading your stupid newsgroup, you're cross-posting in ours, so don't
come over here yelling like a dumbass about us reading alt.tasteless!
Get it now?
Jennifer E. Swofford
> In <1993Dec26.2...@wixer.bga.com> mi...@wixer.bga.com (Mike Herman) writes:
>
> >I have a snake and have observed it kill (NOT kittens)
> >it seems pretty quick for the most part, after all if it
> >takes too long the prey can fight back.
>
> But the prey can't have the option of running, like they would out in the
> real world...
Neither does my dinner. :) Of course, with an argument like that,
you're probably a vegetarian. (Nothing against vegetarians!)
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Jennifer E. Swofford ____ Carnegie Mellon University
js...@andrew.cmu.edu ____ ____ / o\ Mellon College of Science
igu...@cmu.edu /\ / \ / \ / ___/ Pittsburgh, PA
\ \/ /\ \/ /\ \/ /
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Jennifer E. Swofford
>
> I know this isn't the correct follow up sequence(I should have followed Mike
> directly) But Mike, have you ever observed a cat kill its prey? Talk about long
> drawn out torture! I have cats, dogs, rabbits, and turtles and I believe that if
> you are going to have pets you should respect their natural behavior. I
> probrably would not feel comfortable about feeding kittens to snakes, but I
> would agree that its probably a better way to die than starving, or dying of the
> many illnesses that unwanted and neglected cats and kittens suffer, or by being
> tortured to death by a cat!
>
> Susan
Speaking of being tortured to death: I recently ordered my "Trials of
Life" videotape series. The first tape features the Orca whale
feeding on seals. They rushed the shore that the seals were sitting
on, dragged them out to sea, still alive, and then actually "played"
with them: tossed them through the air with their mouths and flipped
them through the air with their tails. It was most disturbing. I
actually cried, but in retrospect, and with the rational reasoning I
used when I ordered the series, I know that that's just the way it is.
God created it that way, if you believe in that sort of thing.
Anyways, I wasn't even trying to prove a point or anything, I just
thought I'd tell you about my video. :)
Christopher Aedo
>
>Look, buddy, I wouldn't subscribe to alt.tasteless if you paid me, and
>neither would a lot of people reading rec.pets. If you bozos from
>alt.tasteless would quit cross-posting crap over here then we wouldn't
>have to read it. Read *these* caps: QUIT CROSS-POSTING TO REC.PETS AND
>REC.PETS.HERPS! Or quit your bellyaching about alt.tasteless. We're not
>reading your stupid newsgroup, you're cross-posting in ours, so don't
>come over here yelling like a dumbass about us reading alt.tasteless!
>Get it now?
>
illustrious alt.tasteless regular who originally cross-posted to
your *cute* little groups... With this in mind, the person who YOU
bitched at was a little out of line in his whine, but you were even
more out of line. It is utterly insipid to imply that *ANYONE* on
a.t would even *CONSIDER* intentionally cross-posting to *ANY* rec.pets
newsgroup.
Now please, lift your skirt, and summon your great-dane. I think you
need a little relaxing.
-Christopher Aedo
(if you step on a cat correctly, it will make a *POP* sound)
Jennifer E. Swofford
> In article <kdqCIv...@netcom.com>, k...@netcom.com (Kevin D. Quitt) says:
> >
> >...of all the species, only two chose us: cats and dogs...
>
> That's an interesting thought your wife brings up, but it's pretty
> unqualified and unlikely. Cats and dogs did not choose to become
> domesticated and live in our homes, they were _trained_ to be like
> that.
>
> It is comletely conceivable that rather than cats and dogs, our
> ancestors decided they liked rats and goats. After decades of specialized
> and selective breeding and lots and lots of training, each animal
> could well take the place of the cat and dog. Hell, what about pigs?
> Are there just a few "special" pigs that have the desire to be house
> pets, companions to man and woman? Heh, they even had a friendly pet
> pig on Green Acers.
Yes, but we did not chose rats and goats. In our society, at least,
I think that even those on alt.tasteless will agree that cats and dogs
can indeed be placed into the "pet" category. (Webster's defines "pet"
as being a domesticated animal kept for pleasure rather than utility.)
There are certainly wild cats and dogs around, but I would guess that
the domesticated ones greatly outnumber them and that if our society
as a whole would take a vote, they'd opt to have them all be pets, and
not wild. Anyway, I can understand the wife's argument, because
although we do keep rats, bunnies, mice, herps (I'm a herp person, but
what the heck) as pets, they are not truly domesticated to the extent
that cats and dogs are. In our society, they have "evolved" to
companion status.
But, do they know that? Do they feel any more cheated when used as
food than, say, a cow or a pig? I doubt it. Will those who use as food
animals that are "supposed" to be used as pets burn in hell any sooner
than those who use cows or pigs? (If you believe in that sort of
thing.)
Notice, I wrote "'used' as pets": we as a society have chosen what
animals to use for what over the years. Some are *used* as pets, some
are *used* as food, some are *used* to pull the carriages, etc. Some,
we allow to roam free in what is left of "the wild". So, who decided
all of this so long ago, and does he have an email address, phone or
fax number so we can ask his opinion on this kitten question?
Anyways, I hold my same opinion: kittens should not be used as
reptile food because we as the herp community do not need yet another
mark against us. We're trying to get our practice accepted by the
masses, which is not done by creating such controversies.
Kevin Kretz
You dorks are crossposting here, too. Just like your informative
post. If you have such a hardon about it, why not mail the alleged
crossposter instead of doing the same thing you bitch about him doing?
ObPets: My favorite thing about my dog was the way he would eat
cats.
Chad Robinson
~ In article <2fvdvg...@ctron-news.ctron.com>,
~ Michael Landman <lan...@ctron.com> wrote:
~ Look, buddy, I wouldn't subscribe to alt.tasteless if you paid me, and
~ neither would a lot of people reading rec.pets. If you bozos from
~ alt.tasteless would quit cross-posting crap over here then we wouldn't
~ have to read it. Read *these* caps: QUIT CROSS-POSTING TO REC.PETS AND
~ REC.PETS.HERPS! Or quit your bellyaching about alt.tasteless. We're not
^^^^^
Why would you want a disgusting disease as a pet? Maybe you SHOULD
subscribe to alt.tasteless.
Takes all kinds, I guess.
Zoweee
rab...@u.washington.edu
>
>I was originally of the opinion that there was nothing wrong with
>feeding cats or dogs to snakes given that they are not obtained
>fraudulently. Pets are pets, some are food. OTOH, my wife points out
>others have been domesticated primarily for food purposes, some for
>burdens.
>
>This makes the status of cats and dogs different from the others:
>they're not just pets, they're companion animals. As such, I believe
I don't agree that "they chose us". Rather, We (the proverbial we of our
prehistoric past) fed pups and kits of canis and felis species, they grew
up accustomed to us, and we bred them for our use (herding, protection,
pest control...) Some people call pot bellied pigs pets; I just call them
small hams. The Koreans (no slurs intended) might call my dog Roo a
delightful meal indeed. Hindus might call a cockroach sacred, whereas we
call them a disgusting pest, and some Polynesians feel that they are a
critical ingredient in a feast. It's all purely cultural, and culture has
a way of putting obscure values on all sorts of things.
Personally, I raise rabbits, chickens, turkeys, sheep and a few pheasants
along with my herps. I refer to all of them as my pets,and they are all
tame and recognize me, let me pet them, etc, but my wife and I eat rabbit
about once a week (try them stewed in beer and garlic!), and just had one
of our turkeys, Russ, on New Year's Day. Values are an intangeble thing-
and they are completely unrecognized throughout most of the animal kingdom.
As for dogs and cats being immune to becoming feed, ask the coyotes that
killed and ate (mostly) my sister's cats six weeks ago what they think of
it.
Happy New Year to all-
Rabbits
(BTW- I am dropping the cross-post to alt.tasteless- I believe it is
unnecessary and could only mean problems to herpers and animal enthusiasts)
rab...@u.washington.edu
Kevin Kretz <kr...@eden.rutgers.edu> wrote:
>In article <kdqCIv...@netcom.com>, k...@netcom.com (Kevin D. Quitt) writes:
>> of all the species, only two chose us: cats and dogs.
>
>
>on my sweater. Well, _chose_ to to. Because I _chose_ to kick the shit out
>of it and it ran away, hopefully to die somewhere.
>
> Anyone who owns a big snake and is too squeamish/guilty to feed it any
>kind of cat, give me a call. I'll throw it in - after I beat its head around
>so the snake can smell the blood.
>
> Bon appetit,
> Kevin
This is just what we don't need. Let's cut it short and avoid any more
bad press, folks.
Rabbits.
Anthony A. Datri
>domesticated and live in our homes, they were _trained_ to be like that.
Actually, they were genetically engineered. Neither is a natural species.
--
======================================================================8--<
Operator Console #2
>We took our two male rabbits to be neutered Thursday. I picked them up
>that afternoon and took them home. Sparky (french lop) is fine, but
>Nolan (dwarf) was still numb in his hind. I took him back to the vet
>today and was told that his 3rd vertabrae (sp?) from the rear has been
>fractured. He is paralyzed from that point down.
>He's confused but alert. The only issue is quality of life. Until I can
>determine if he's going to have a happy life, I can't bring myself to
>have him put to sleep.
>
more stuff deleted.....
>I need advice from people who have handled this in the past, or have any
>ideas as to what to do.
>
>Please help.... we're alone on this one....
>
>Clif Deanhardt
>
>
I borrowed this post (Sorry Clif) to show you what makes an animal unacceptable
as food. The rabbit ( common snake food ) referred to in this post is 1000
times more worthy of life than any kitten. You see, having the love of a good
family is what makes an animal a pet, not just the fact that it is a cat/dog/bird
etc. If you have a bunch of kittens sitting in a box, they are just as much anim-
als as a box of rabbits,mice, rats.... It's when an animal is taken in and cared
for like the one above that it becomes worthy of a "higher status."
Just another (barely) .02 cents
kevin
Summary:
Keywords:
Thomas Joseph Donohue
>
>The thought of eating a kitten makes me sick...
Actually, I've heard they're quite tasty, especially when they're broiled
and basted.
>The thought of feeding a live ANYTHING to a snake bothers me, so I don't
>keep snakes.
My sister used to have a ball python several years ago, and we'd feed it
gerbils and mice, which really was fun to watch. You really don't know
how interesting, intelligent and fascinating snakes really are, unless
you spend lots of time with them. Try it, overcome your weakness.
While on a predator/prey note, my friend Scott from high school has a cat,
Molly. Molly is cool as shit. She must weigh almost 25 lbs, and all of
it's muscle... I mean, she is one big cat. She also has 6 claws on each
paw, so she's well equipped, too. Scott & I would watch her out in the yard,
hunting birds. She'd do the typical cat thing: crouch, concentrate, wiggle,
pounce, and swipe. Except Molly, with her 6 claws per paw, wouln't just
stun, wound or kill, but she would literally tear the bird in half! It was
quite a show. Has anybody else ever watched cats kill? Got any stories?
[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[II]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]
The worms crawl in and the worms crawl out,||Tom "Bored in Berlin" Donohue
The ones that go in are lean and thin, ||dono...@w250zrz.zrz.tu-berlin.de
The ones that crawl out are fat and stout, ||These statements and viewpoints
Your eyes fall in and your teeth fall out, ||are my own; they do not represent
Your brains come tumbling down your snout. ||those of anyone else, living,
Be merry, my friends, be merry.--The Pogues||dead, or slowly dying in pain.
[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[II]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]
Nessa
>In <jazmynCI...@netcom.com> jaz...@netcom.com (Jazmyn Concolor) writes:
>> Snakes eat their prey head first, thus sufficating it quickly. Cats play
>>with their food till it dies from fear, shock or blood loss. Snakes seem
>>much more humane..
Cats play with their food in a calculated manner so as NOT to kill it until
the last moment. Anyone who doubts this should go a watch a mother bring
half dead, terrified rodents to the kittens for them to play with.
Snakes are cold blooded and methodical and animal dies in an inexhorable
fashion. However They do NOT play with their food. I would say that the
consisten manner in which they feed actually makes them more humane than
we are. Definitely moreso than cats. After all snakes do not eat unless
they are actually hungry.
>My main objection is still that a person has to go out and decide to get
>something living, and then place it in a confined place where it has no
>chance of escape, where it will end up dead, shortly. That seems unbelievably
>cruel to me.
Hmmm... Sounds like a really good description of a stock yard at a slaughter
house. Oh, you meant the snakes cage? Looks like all of you will have to
stop eating meat. Have you seen the "Faces of Death" where they show the
rabbit slaughter house? I was shocked to see Humans cleaning rabbits that
weren't dead yet. They do the same to chickens too. Something about blood
letting and making the meat better or something like that.
This doesn't sound very humane to me.
More to chew on...
--
Brian & 'Nessa (watched over by) Priscilla & Herman (carpet sharks)
"Maybe it's a gift, a special talent that I, alone, possess!" --Wembley
"Maybe it's a curse, a special weirdness that only you are stuck with!" --Red
Nessa
[lots of irrelevant stuff delted]
>IL>*********************************
>IL>* My opinions, not Cabletron's. *
>IL>*Stupid People Shouldn't Breathe*
>IL>* lan...@ctron.com *
>IL>*********************************
> Then Tell me ......why are you around still sucking up air??????
You just wasted two whole screens of bandwidth sending the entire previous message, when you could have deleted most of it, and you are still breathing.
Why are you complaining?
You should be happy that this guys sig is just his opinion
and not a natural law! :)
Oh yeah...
IMHO, YMMV, STDDSCLAP...
Nessa
>I was originally of the opinion that there was nothing wrong with
>feeding cats or dogs to snakes given that they are not obtained
>fraudulently. Pets are pets, some are food. OTOH, my wife points out
>that of all the species, only two chose us: cats and dogs. All the
>others have been domesticated primarily for food purposes, some for
>burdens.
I know that this is not related to cats as food but...
Ferrets are domesticated animals as well.
There is a good deal of evidence to support the claim that ferrets have been
domesticated longer than cats.
The fact that ferrets can't survive in the wild, while cats can, would seem
to add validity to this claim. Interestingly enough dogs, which I am willing
to accept have been domesticated longer than ferrets or cats, also have genetic
weak links that are becoming very evident. They still are a more hardy
species. I suspect the gene pool for canines is deeper than the respective
gene pools for cats and especially ferrets.
Any one have any considered opinions?
Back to the issue at hand...
>This makes the status of cats and dogs different from the others:
>they're not just pets, they're companion animals. As such, I believe
>they deserve special treatment, and should be immune from being food.
Only the companion animals deserve special treatment. After all what is
special about being killed in a cold loveless environment like a shelter?
What real difference is there? The only one exists in our minds.
Dead is DEAD.
>My wife is horrified that this is 'merely' an intellectual choice, and
>not a visceral one (like her). I wouldn't get hot and bothered about
>someone feeding kittens to a snake, but I would recommend against it,
>and would not do it myself.
This comment is not directed at anyone in particular just a genreal observation.
Wouldn't it be nice if people where this "visceral" about things that really
mattered? Like children dying around the world. Womens rights. The rights
of minority groups?
I mean most of us feel for these people but how many of us waste tons of
bandwidth and time trying to defend these people? Hmm.....
Kevin D. Quitt
>I don't agree that "they chose us".
Dogs weren't domesticated until they became camp followers. They were
encouraged to join camps because dogs will eat human feces, then leave
the immediate area to drop their own feces. This was a sanitation plus
for those groups that allowed and encouraged the dogs to hang around.
Cats provided a similar service by eliminating rodents and (poisonous)
herps in the area of the camp. Obviously, cat and dog groups we
separate geographically.
What other animals (not counting intestinal fauna, or mitochondria)
have a symbiotic relationship with us that is the cause of their
domestication, rather than the result of it?
Walker Aumann
>My sister used to have a ball python several years ago, and we'd feed it
>gerbils and mice, which really was fun to watch. You really don't know
>how interesting, intelligent and fascinating snakes really are, unless
>you spend lots of time with them. Try it, overcome your weakness.
Interesting and fascinating, yes. Intelligent, no. Or at least not very
perceptive. I've watched my corn snake take several tries at eating a
mouse before finding the head. He thought he had it made when he got one
of the front legs - took him about five minutes to give up on that idea.
Kevin D. Quitt
>In article <kdqCIv...@netcom.com> k...@netcom.com (Kevin D. Quitt) writes:
>>OTOH, my wife points out
>>that of all the species, only two chose us: cats and dogs.
>
>but those are the ones I can think of off the top of my head, and all three
>are not uncommonly considered pets.
sef wrote me about this in a letter. I pointed out that the fact that
an animal is a pet, or that people breed the animal does not make it
domesticated, and suggested he use a dictionary to look up the meaning
of domesticated. He got so incensed by this that he has told me he
never wants to hear from me again, that all further attempts would
bounce, and that the third bounce would also go to my postmaster.
(sigh. Kids - what are ya gonna do with them?)
Jurpo (Urpo Kotipalo)
: quite a show. Has anybody else ever watched cats kill? Got any stories?
heh, we had once a cat that would hunt for rabbits... she was
a real cool cat. at first we were curious why wouldn't she eat
her cat food, but then one day, i found some half dozen half eaten
both adult and baby rabbits behind one of our barns...
--
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Urpo Kotipalo, LuTK/MAT There was a pause, and then Fran roared: /
Nig...@phoenix.oulu.fi 'Who wants another drink? I mean, besides /
Nig...@rieska.oulu.fi me?' -I. Asimov: Foundation and Empire <
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Sean Eric Fagan
>sef wrote me about this in a letter. I pointed out that the fact that
>an animal is a pet, or that people breed the animal does not make it
>domesticated, and suggested he use a dictionary to look up the meaning
>of domesticated. He got so incensed by this that he has told me he
>never wants to hear from me again, that all further attempts would
>bounce, and that the third bounce would also go to my postmaster.
>(sigh. Kids - what are ya gonna do with them?)
No, come on, tell the whole truth.
Here are some basic facts for the ignorant out there (this includes
the above-quoted idiot):
First, a definition for "domesticate":
1do-mes-ti-cate \de-'mes-ti-,ka^-t\ vt -cat-ed; -cat-ing
(ca. 1639)
1: to bring into domestic use: ADOPT
2: to adapt (an animal or plant) to life in intimate association with
and to the advantage of man
3: to fit for domestic life
4: to bring to the level of ordinary people: FAMILIARIZE
-- do-mes-ti-ca-tion \-,mes-ti-'ka^--shen\ n
2do-mes-ti-cate \-ket, -,ka^-t\ n
(1951)
:a domesticated animal or plant
Now, about rats, cockroaches, and crickets: rats have been adapting to
live, *intimately*, with humans for many thousands of years, far longer,
most likely, than either dogs or cats. The selective breeding was not
done by humans, for the most part, but by the rats themselves. However,
rats are also bred *soley* to be pets. These pet rats are bred from rats
that had already adapted to living with humans (rattus rattus). So,
rats qualify as domesticated under all four definitions above. As for
the original question, which kdq is too stupid to think about, rats chose
to live like this *despite* being killed for it! It is more beneficial
for rats to live in human towns and cities than to live in the wild.
Now for cockroaches: largely the same thing: there are some species of
cockroaches that are *only* found in human habitats. Without humans, these
species just would not exist. Again, being treated as pests by large segments,
they are routinely killed, yet continue to "choose" to live among us. In
addition, like rats, they have also been bred as pets (people taking the
attitude that if you can't beat 'em, turn 'em into pretty pets). Variations
of cockroaches that would otherwise not exist have been bred, and, I'm told,
there are even a few "shows" for these in various parts of the world (I know
of one that was in the U.S. a couple of years ago, heard of others, mostly in
Europe). Again, they fit all four definitions, although the fourth is a
bit of a stretch.
Crickets have long been regarded as pets in Japanese society. For good luck.
And, since wild crickets are pretty boring looking, there have been crickets
bred for certain traits (sound and looks) for at least a couple of hundred
years. Again: all four definitions meet.
Now, kdq kept saying I was wrong. He is an idiot who is not willing to
do a little research to back up his point. I am sick and tired of dealing
with idiots who are so certain they're right they can't be bothered to do a
little checking. So, any mail he sends will be bounced back, and after three
such attempts, will be copied to his postmaster, as well. I do not want to
hear from the fool ever again.
But it's so much better for him to not tell the whole truth, isn't it?
amy lynn young-leith
Thomas Joseph Donohue <dono...@w250zrz.zrz.tu-berlin.de> wrote:
>My sister used to have a ball python several years ago, and we'd feed it
>gerbils and mice, which really was fun to watch. You really don't know
>how interesting, intelligent and fascinating snakes really are, unless
>you spend lots of time with them. Try it, overcome your weakness.
I have nothing against snakes and enjoy playing with the ones owned by
friends, I just don't care to keep them. Good lord, if I kept one of
every animal I'd be thrown out of my apartment in a flash, I'm sure.
amy
--
aly...@kiwi.ucs.indiana.edu Occupation: Lifetime Student
*****************************************************************************
*This post was made on personal time and has nothing to do whatsoever with *
* the attitudes or opinions of Indiana University. *
*****************************************************************************
amy lynn young-leith
Nessa <nes...@sage.cc.purdue.edu> wrote:
[...]
>Hmmm... Sounds like a really good description of a stock yard at a slaughter
>house. Oh, you meant the snakes cage? Looks like all of you will have to
>stop eating meat. Have you seen the "Faces of Death" where they show the
>rabbit slaughter house? I was shocked to see Humans cleaning rabbits that
>weren't dead yet. They do the same to chickens too. Something about blood
>letting and making the meat better or something like that.
>This doesn't sound very humane to me.
On a slightly related note, I would like to start a conversation about
something, which for obvious reasons I've left out alt.tasteless.
But HOW can someone knowingly cause such torture to another living
creature, be it "animal" or human (we are animals as well, but people
frequently refuse to admit this)?
Just READING the above made me feel... I can't explain it. The
thought of someone doing this knowingly just brings on the most intense feeling
of dark *evil*. I can remember the first time I felt this... my
grandfather and I had gone fishing, and he was skinning catfish alive.
I was only about 9 but I went nuts. I've not respected him since that
day, unfortunately (this along with other fun reasons).
At the risk of being called a fruit loop, I fully believe it's a
metaphysical thing. When someone's hurt, I feel something. I can't
explain what it is, but even if I don't "know" someone's in trouble
I'll feel it. I guess the same goes with animals, and the thought of
doing that brings on the related remembrances of feelings.
I ask this on a pets group because I imagine we might have different
views on animals and their place in society. But do you have to be an
animal lover to acknowledge that knowingly causing pain has to be, in
the very least, very very bad for the karma? =-)
rab...@u.washington.edu
Now, kids, both of you, please stop this inane bickering about who's
right and who's wrong and please refrain from calling each other names.
Don't you think both of you can be right on this, seriously? I mean,
it's a values issue, just like premarital sex, nuclear warfare and social
services.
Thankyou- let's try to be civil, or we're going to get just as bad a
reputation as alt.tasteless....
kathleen richards
when you need it? (Please sef, don't send me anymore copies - I am being
sarcastic here. Thank you.)
Enough already ...
____
kathleen richards email: ki...@ucrengr.ucr.edu
"It must be quite frightening for people to have to breathe air
they can't see!" -R.H. 1993
Roger D. McMillian
>Ferrets are domesticated animals as well.
>There is a good deal of evidence to support the claim that ferrets have been
>domesticated longer than cats.
:) I Just wish we could convince the powers that be in Michigan,
Massechusetts, California, Hawaii, and assorted municipalities in the US
that this is the case...
>
>The fact that ferrets can't survive in the wild, while cats can, would seem
>to add validity to this claim. Interestingly enough dogs, which I am willing
>to accept have been domesticated longer than ferrets or cats, also have genetic
>weak links that are becoming very evident. They still are a more hardy
>species. I suspect the gene pool for canines is deeper than the respective
>gene pools for cats and especially ferrets.
>
:) Funny thing about dogs and cats: Both have several distinct "breeds"
within their respective species. Each can be easily differentiated from
the other by specific physical characteristics. Ferrets, on the other
hand, do not yet have a recognized "breed" within the species that
"breeds true" each time. Depending on whom you talk to, there are between
30 and 70 different recognized color variations in ferrets ranging from
Black Sable to Albino. While some have managed to repeat a generation or
two of one color pattern (say, Cinnamon for example) There are few who
can trace the geneology of their ferrets back to when ferrets first came
into this country. As far as gene pools in dogs, you may be right in
most cases, One exception that comes to mind is the CHOW . They were
nearly EATEN to extinction in China & vicinity after WW II and might be
extinct if US Servicemen hadn't brought the first 10 back to the states.
Most of the Chows in the US today owe their existence to these 10
progenitors.( Ther has been some bolstering of their gene pool
periodically by some surviving Chows in their country of origin, but It's
still a fairly shallow gene pool.
>Any one have any considered opinions? > >Back to the issue at hand...
>
>>This makes the status of cats and dogs different from the others:
>>they're not just pets, they're companion animals. As such, I believe
>>they deserve special treatment, and should be immune from being food.
Companion Animals... That's what PETA members call pets. (Not that it's
wrong, but it seems to be their catch phrase)
>
>Only the companion animals deserve special treatment. After all what is
>special about being killed in a cold loveless environment like a shelter?
:) Not ALL shelters are cold and loveless. The GCFA shelter (and indeed
most of the ferret shelters in the US & Canada) is operated solely by
volunteers, many of which drive 30 or more miles to put in 4-6 hours a
day. The ferrets get lots of love, handling and any medical attention
they need. Since the new management took over in April of 93, not one
ferret has had to die unless they were already in so much pain that it
was the only merciful thing to do to end their pain.
>
>What real difference is there? The only one exists in our minds. >Dead is
DEAD.
>
>>My wife is horrified that this is 'merely' an intellectual choice, and
>>not a visceral one (like her). I wouldn't get hot and bothered about
>>someone feeding kittens to a snake, but I would recommend against it,
>>and would not do it myself.
>
>This comment is not directed at anyone in particular just a genreal
observation.
>
>Wouldn't it be nice if people where this "visceral" about things that really
>mattered? Like children dying around the world. Womens rights. The rights
>of minority groups?
>
>I mean most of us feel for these people but how many of us waste tons of
>bandwidth and time trying to defend these people? Hmm.....
>--
>Brian & 'Nessa (watched over by) Priscilla & Herman (carpet sharks)
>"Maybe it's a gift, a special talent that I, alone, possess!" --Wembley
>"Maybe it's a curse, a special weirdness that only you are stuck with!" --Red
Roger McMillian, Director
Greater Chicago Ferret Assn.
& CB, Meg, Tribble, Heidi, Sneakers, Magic, Phoenyx & Maggie (furries)
Kevin D. Quitt
We had a pair of cats (brothers) who loved to hunt squirrel. One
would hide in the bushes at the top of one end of a high brick wall,
and the other would chase the squirrel so that its only escape was
along that same wall. The squirrels would be so busy running and
checking behind themselves that they never saw the second cat.
Lobo
>In article <2fvdvg...@ctron-news.ctron.com>,
>Michael Landman <lan...@ctron.com> wrote:
>
>> [Caps screaming intentional..]
>>
>> THEN UNSUBSCRIBE FROM ALT.TASTELESS!
>>
>> alt.tastless is *exactly* where these types of posts go, so
>>people who don't find this stuff offensive can discuss and enjoy it with
>>out pissing off you little momma's boys.
>
>Look, buddy, I wouldn't subscribe to alt.tasteless if you paid me, and
>come over here yelling like a dumbass about us reading alt.tasteless!
>Get it now?
>
awwww....aint she cute? Just how far up her ass do you think this person's
undies are?!?!?! Hehehehehe Perchance if ya yanked em out, they might
have a nice brown or maybe even green streak to show off??
Steven Bjork
[crud deleted]
*flame mode on*
Hey, I'm a CANNIBAL, and I'm dang well gonna
get my meal TODAY!!!
*flame mode off*
In the American culture (where the posts in this thread
seem to come from), using a cat as food would be basis
for a jail sentence.
Dimwits that think they can feed anything to anything should
think carefully about how *you'd* feel if I could cannibalize
*you*.
../Steven
Holly Park Library
OK, here's "An Immodest Proposal, 1994-Style"
"Eliminate trapping, close fur ranches, and recycle unwanted pets
by using the fur from unwanted strays to make stuff to sell to the
fur trade! No spotted-owl-type job-loss controversy--simply transfer
skills over to the domestic-fur side! This plan will engender added
and needed revenue for humane groups and clear the sidewalks of those
folks who show up every few months with boxes of give-away kittens!"
the above appeared in a 3:00 a.m. fever dream and I decided it showed
up because of all the SAKF articles, so obviously it was fated to be posted
here (sort of on the same principle moms use when they tell a crying
child to "Stop crying or I'll give you something to really cry about!")
(in other words there's enough in this proposal to upset lotsa folks--
and some serious issues--and, like a bad penny, this fever dream had to be
passed on so it wouldn't bother me anymore. . .)
Seriously, this is a terrific group and one of the best and mostly free
of the bickering I've seen elsewhere & I hope that continues. . .
Kate Pappas and Emmett Kelly Point-3 h...@spl.lib.wa.us
Jon Jeckell, Mankato State University, MN
>
> : quite a show. Has anybody else ever watched cats kill? Got any stories?
>
> heh, we had once a cat that would hunt for rabbits... she was
> a real cool cat. at first we were curious why wouldn't she eat
> her cat food, but then one day, i found some half dozen half eaten
> both adult and baby rabbits behind one of our barns...
No shit. My grandpa had a cat out at his farm that turned mildly wild before
we caught it and brought it back to ours and retamed it. It was a MEAN SOB
too. The day we went to get it, we saw it chase down a rabbit that was bigger
than it was, kill it (with LOTS of fur flying around), and drag it back to one
of the old, abandoned farm buildings to lunch on the thing. We were amazed.
Then it tore the hell out of us as we tryed to take it home. That's gratitude
for ya. Anyway, the cat got to like us after a while, and everyone in the
family admired its ferocity and determination. Our dogs (a HUGE black lab for
one) was scared to mess with it--it held its ground no matter what it faced.
Here's an example of just how tough it was. We had a guy that used to trap
in our woods, and the cat got caught in one of his traps. He considered
putting it out of its misery, but couldn't and let it go. The right front
paw (the one that got caught) was sorta amputated, so it only had 3 legs.
Less than two weeks later, it got caught again! This time it was the rear paw
on the same side, with the same results. We thought the thing was done
for--nope. Every morning we'd see that damned cat bouncing across the yard on
two legs (both left legs--one front, one rear)--it was simply amazing to watch.
It lived for 3 more years like that. I'm really curious what finally did it in
too.
\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\|//////////////////////////////////////
\Jon Jeckell |"I had misgivings like everyone else, but I thought /
\Mankato State | [the appearance of the SDF-1] just might be a good thing /
>XO, Skull Sqn | for the human race after all when I saw how it scared the <
/VT-102 :) | hell outta the politicians."--Remark attributed to Lt (jg)\
/Roy Fokker Fan | Roy Fokker, _Robotech_ \
//////////////////////////////////////|\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\
Julie Rhodes
aly>I ask this on a pets group because I imagine we might have different
aly>views on animals and their place in society. But do you have to be an
aly>animal lover to acknowledge that knowingly causing pain has to be, in
aly>the very least, very very bad for the karma? =-)
No, you don't have to be an animal lover. I'm not very fond of
children, but I would never allow one to be abused if I could stop it.
You just have to be a truly intelligent human being--and that includes
the quality of self-awareness, which leads to the awareness that as
you have the ability to feel happiness and pain, so do other living
beings.
Those people who insist that other creatures, whether human or not, do
not "feel pain like we do" are either lying to themselves for their
own selfish reasons, or else they are simply stupid and unable to
conceive of anything outside their "Twenny beers on a Friday night
let's get the guns and go kill somethin'" philosophy.
No offense meant to those who like beer. Like any other legal
recreational drug, it can be used in a harmless manner.
...CatTag: The idea of calm exists in a sitting cat.
Mason Bliss
>for ya. Anyway, the cat got to like us after a while, and everyone in the
>family admired its ferocity and determination. Our dogs (a HUGE black lab for
>one) was scared to mess with it--it held its ground no matter what it faced.
We have a cat like that. He's old now, but in his prime he was truly awesome
to behold. We had a dog (mutt) that loved chasing cats, and when we got Bear
(the cat) Jim (the dog) decided to go after him and have a little fun. Well,
he started after Bear, but came up short when Bear didn't run. Not only did
Bear not run, but heattacked Jim - he swiped at his face, opening him up. Jim
had a healthy respect for Bear ever after...
About a week after we got Bear I remember playing with him in our hall. He
started at one end, and ran at me, claws beared. I got out of his way...
Bear's also been known to run off the neighborhood dogs, INCLUDING our
neighbor's big wolf-hybrid (Missy). He's a cussed cat...
--
| Mason L. Bliss | What diabolical chicken stepped on your |
| ma...@cis.umassd.edu | forehead and sat on your chin? |
Phineas
the window of our backyard right underneath the hummingbird feeder.
The little thing was a beautiful iridescent blue and had a lax little
'tongue' dropping out of it's long beak that looked like a piece of
dentalfloss which stuck to the sill. I thought it was just injured
at first, it had died recently, maybe by smacking into the window
and breaking it's little neck. I considered burying the little
bird body but instead got my cat and put him up on the sill. When
he noticed what was there he took a great interest in it and took
the bird body in its mouth. As I was walking away I looked back
and my kitty was rending the bird's head from it's body. I felt
kind of grossed out but reflected that if I had buried it it would
have been eaten anyway by worms, insects, microbes and such, I just
wouldn't have to see it. I guess that's why we bury bodies anyway.
--Phineas
Brett Lymn (master of the siren)
In article <nessie.7...@sage.cc.purdue.edu> nes...@sage.cc.purdue.edu (Nessa) writes:
(note the followup-to)
Nessa> Wouldn't it be nice if people where this "visceral" about
Nessa> things that really mattered?
Yeah, right on.
Nessa> Like children dying around the
Nessa> world.
Here is the problem about people being visceral, one man's meat is
another man's poison. Have you noticed the places where children die
in huge numbers are also the places where there is a huge birth rate
(sort of figures doesn't it?). Now what happens is that someone goes
in and says "gee all these kids dying is a Bad Thing, let's fix it".
So they do. They do not address the huge birth rate. So where you
used to have a stable population you suddenly get an enormous
population explosion which causes *big* problems. Don't believe me?
Just have a look at the modern history of Egypt.
Nessa> Womens rights.
This one starts in the home. You need to convince a lot of women
first.
Nessa> The rights of minority groups?
I thought there already were plenty of visceral peoples for this
one...
Nessa> I mean most of us feel for these people but how many of us
Nessa> waste tons of bandwidth and time trying to defend these people?
Nessa> Hmm.....
Possibly something about defending the indefensible but then again
this IS usenet!
--
Brett Lymn
Urban Fredriksson
> Depending on whom you talk to, there are between
>30 and 70 different recognized color variations in ferrets ranging from
>Black Sable to Albino.
In some parts of the world. In Sweden, we recognize only five.
Some people here have suggested there are different breeds,
one beeing "albino hunting ferrets", the other the "brown
pet ferret".
--
Urban Fredriksson u...@icl.se Knowledge is power: Read!
Sail Steve
Heidi Evans
domesticated longer than the housecat. They probably aren't very edible,
either, being so skinny.
Even if you were joking, you should be careful. People are stupid. People
will take you seriously and believe what you say.
HME
Jazmyn Concolor
wasn't good enough to compete with minks, sables, ermines, etc. and the meat
wasn't terribly popular due to the strong, gamey taste.
Any animal is edible though..Just some taste better then others and what
people eat varies from state to state or country to country. We might turn up
our noses in California at the thought of eatting 'possums, but I know people
in certain parts of the east and south who think its gourmet food..:) A friend
in Texas says that they eat gators and snakes where she lives..Also racoons and
other 'varmits'..
>
> HME
Elizabeth Watt
Ferrets are NOT wild animals, they have been domesticated, just
like cats and dogs, for thousands of years as rodent control.
In England they were used for hunting rabbits (now illegal, I
believe). In other areas they helped rid granaries of rodents.
There is a wild animal, called the Black Footed Ferret, but it
is not related to domestic ferrets. Ferrets are wonderful pets
and should be treated as such.
Ash (K.A. Rice)
ar...@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Elizabeth Watt) writes:
I like ferrets too.
Domestic ferrets and black-footed ferrets are closely related:
order family genus subgenus species
Domestic : Carnivora Mustelidae Mustela Putorious putorious
Black footed : Carnivora Mustelidae Mustela Putorious nigripes
Domestic ferrets are not reproductively isolated from wild European
polecats. When wild, they are called polecats, and when domesticated
they are called ferrets; they are a single species. The claim that
ferrets are not wild animals is a semantic distinction rather than
a biological one.
The classification is from Walker's _Mammals of the World_, 3rd edition.
Peace,
Ash
--
| Ash | K.A.Rice | a...@mcz.harvard.edu | ri...@husc.harvard.edu |
| an2...@anon.penet.fi | au...@world.std.com |
Brian Millham
>Domestic ferrets are not reproductively isolated from wild European
>polecats. When wild, they are called polecats, and when domesticated
>they are called ferrets; they are a single species. The claim that
>ferrets are not wild animals is a semantic distinction rather than
>a biological one.
Wolfs and dogs can also inter-breed. So are you saying that the difference
between dogs and wolfs is semantic?
There are physical differences between the domestic ferret and the polecat.
I'll have to try and dig up the info that was posted to the net about this
around a year ago (or whoever posted it, a repost looks like it is in
order)
One difference that I remember: Ferrets have very poor eyesight. Polecats
have good eyesight.
>The classification is from Walker's _Mammals of the World_, 3rd
edition.
Other animals have been re-classified when the info was discovered
to be wrong, haven't they? Books aren't always right.
Brian Millham
b...@dr.att.com
owned by 4 ferrets, 2 cats, 13 fish, and 4 RC cars!
Urban Fredriksson
>Domestic ferrets are not reproductively isolated from wild European
>polecats. When wild, they are called polecats, and when domesticated
>they are called ferrets; they are a single species.
So according to your opinion, wolves and dogs belong to the same
species?
--
Urban Fredriksson u...@icl.se