Ferret Kits FOR SALE Pittsburgh, PA
Tom & Ellen
I have seven week old ferret kits in all colors for sale. $90 each. They
are neutered and descented and come with a one year health guarantee.
E-mail me or call (724) 539-0549 for details. Thanks. TOM
Ariel W.
They're too darn young to be nuetered, descented and sold off. It's so
sad. I thought the smaller breeders were better than the big farms.
Ariel and her fesnyng
Tom & Ellen <sco...@sgi.net> wrote in article
<01bd9e72$d3f5bec0$478ba6d1@scooter>...
Pooh
Ariel,
Hi, sad to say as all of the small breeders aren't any better. There are all
kinds of BYB (back yard breeders) ... there is a difference from the BYB and
the Hobby breeder and then you have the Farms such as Path Valley and
Marshall's.
Cheers
Robin & her band of merry mischief makers
Tom & Ellen
The breeder I represent produces 400-500 healthy loving ferrets a week.
They breed for temperament and have a facility that is sparkling clean.
They have an on site dedicated vet staff. I have sold over 100 baby ferrets
in the last two months without a single complaint. I follow up a majority
of my sales and always stand behind my breeder. But I guess you guys just
know a whole lot more than they do even if you do not have a DVM. Thanks.
TOM POPE, Pope's Amazing Pets
Pooh <po...@ix.netcom.com> wrote in article
<358FFCF8...@ix.netcom.com>...
Pooh
Hi,
Well I got an email saying that you are selling Path Valley Farms ferrets and
they are only 2 steps above Marshalls that they don't sell for testing and that
anyone can go and purchase kits from there.
Seven weeks is too young to be selling ferrets, and way to young to have them
spayed/neutered and descented ..... imo.
Cheers
Robin & her band of merry mischief makers
Stephen Schmiedeler
Tom & Ellen wrote:
>
> The breeder I represent produces 400-500 healthy loving ferrets a week.
> They breed for temperament and have a facility that is sparkling clean.
> They have an on site dedicated vet staff. I have sold over 100 baby ferrets
> in the last two months without a single complaint. I follow up a majority
> of my sales and always stand behind my breeder. But I guess you guys just
> know a whole lot more than they do even if you do not have a DVM. Thanks.
> TOM POPE, Pope's Amazing Pets
>
Many of the people that use and read this news group believe that a baby
ferret is too young to be nuetered and descented. I am one of those.
Many also believe that descenting in most cases is not necessary. Mine
were fixed (and descented, my mistake) when they were about 8 months.
This gives the ferrets more time to grow and mature and time for their
bodies to start producing hormones that may (note may, not will) help
them live a longer healthier life. Male ferrets tend to have their
growth stunted if fixed at a very young age. I also think it would be
easier, and therefore safer, to operate on a full grown ferret rather
than one only about six weeks old. And I believe that a young, but
almost full grown ferret (ie. six to nine months old) has a better
chance to survive an operation than a very young one of only a few
weeks. With enough evidence, I may be convinced differnately on the
last point. But my feelings remain very strong on what I have stated
and you will probably not change my mind that it is ok to fix a ferret
so young even if a vet says its ok. (I still remember TV commercials
that had a doctor state that smoking was good for you. Sponsored by the
tobbacco companies of course. Can you say conflict of interest boys and
girls? :) And, although vets, or any other kind of specialists, usually
know more about a particular subject than me, that does not mean that
they can not be wrong or make mistakes. Especailly when there is
disagreement among themselves.)
Unfortunately, you are almost in a no win situation. If you sold
ferrets that were not fixed somebody would probably respond how
irresponsible you are for selling ferrets that will either breed,
sending more ferrets to ferret shelters; or, die (females) when they go
in heat because they are not breed.
I'm afraid you will not get very much support, especially with the
"tone" of your response; and you will probably get a lot of hostile
responses.
I do not envy you. But I would like to think I would not have put
myself in your situation in the first place.
Stephen
Elle
Tom & Ellen <sco...@sgi.net> wrote in article
<01bd9fcc$bc863a20$558ba6d1@scooter>...
> The breeder I represent produces 400-500 healthy loving ferrets a week.
And what breeder would that be,Tom? (just curious)
Caitlyn Martin
On Wed, 24 Jun 1998 18:03:31 -0400, Pooh <po...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
>Hi,
>
>Well I got an email saying that you are selling Path Valley Farms ferrets and
>they are only 2 steps above Marshalls that they don't sell for testing and that
>anyone can go and purchase kits from there.
Hi, Robin.
Fact is, Marshall Farms and Path Valley Farms are ferret mills (and
yes I've been doing research), and they supply most domestic ferrets
to pet stores. The are for-profit businesses guided by the almighty
dollar above all else.
It's also a fact that anyone can puchase any legal pet, including
ferrets,at any pet store, and this isn't likely to change. There's
never going to be a ferret ownership test. <sigh> We'll always have
abused animals. Pet stores are for-profit too, and will sell to
anyone who has enough money.
Unless we take animal ownership out of the free enterprise system,
none of this will change. If that's so, then we have two options: we
can work to change the laws regarding the sale of domestic animals.
This will take time and a lot of education of our legislators, and
isn't likely to happen any time soon. The second option is to educate
ferret owners so that they can do the best for their pets. Isn't that
at least part of what this newsgroup is about? I know I've learned a
lot in the last three months.
(I even used to think ferrets were rodents, I'm ashamed to admit.
That was then, and this is now.)
>
>Seven weeks is too young to be selling ferrets, and way to young to have them
>spayed/neutered and descented ..... imo.
It seems to be a commonly held opinion, but current practice seems to
be to sell them off that young. My experience with Adric tells me you
are probably right. But... if that's going to be the predominant
practice, then shouldn't we try and educate people in the care of
young kits, at least until the practice is changed?
Does attacking the breeder and the pet store owner do any good? Will
it change anything?
Take care,
Caity
(who is doing the best she can for Adric, now almost 9 weeks old)
Caitlyn Martin
ca...@interpath.com
http://www.angelfire.com/nc/caitmartin
Pooh
Hi,
No, they are ferret farms as I was informed ... yes I still consider them mills
although for the sake of not arguing the point .... i call them farms. Yes they do,
but while Marshall's will not sell to the general public, Path Valley will.
I was by far advocating purchasing any ferrets from any ferret "Mill/Farm". I will
never advocate it. I will not however tell someone else that they are wrong for
doing so ...... for it is up to them to make the decision for themselves.
> Fact is, Marshall Farms and Path Valley Farms are ferret mills (and
> yes I've been doing research), and they supply most domestic ferrets
> to pet stores. The are for-profit businesses guided by the almighty
> dollar above all else.
Sorry, but that is a load of crap. There are many pet stores that no longer sell
anything but fish and small animals such as mice, rats, hamsters and gerbils. How
do you think they've come to do this? Just wake up one day and say, "Hey, i'm not
going to sell the other pets any longer"? I don't think so.
I have stated before and I will state once again ..... we as the consumers have a
say as to what is being sold in our pet stores. If there is not a demand for these
pets they aren't going to supply them.
> It's also a fact that anyone can puchase any legal pet, including
> ferrets,at any pet store, and this isn't likely to change. There's
> never going to be a ferret ownership test. <sigh>
Not with this type of attitude no nothing will change. There are many of us that
fight for the abused animals ..... who will get that abused animal taken away from
their abusive owners.
There are many of us that push that pet store to educate folks on the animals they
are supplying.
How do you think women got the right to vote ..... or how slavery was abolished?
No, they didn't happen over night ... but eventually they did happen.
> We'll always have abused animals. Pet stores are for-profit too, and will sell to
> anyone who has enough money.
You're wrong .... it will change. But it won't if you think it's gotta happen one
way and if it doesn't happen that way it won't happen at all. No the world isn't
perfect and yes there will be that animal abuser that will get through ... but with
animal lovers sticking together ..... it will happen allot less and be reported a
hell of allot quicker.
If PETA has their way no animals will be under ownership and we will lose allot of
animals because these animals can't survive on their own. They are the ones that
are killing animals needlessly. How bout them Minks they thought they'd set free
and left babies free who couldn't survive without their mothers .... how bout those
feral colonies of cats they are killing off here and there?
So we really don't want to discuss taken animal ownership out of the free enterprise
system.
> Unless we take animal ownership out of the free enterprise system,
> none of this will change.
No, I disagree, we don't have 2 options ...... we can do both of them, not one or
the other.
> If that's so, then we have two options: we
> can work to change the laws regarding the sale of domestic animals.
>
And this is being done today by many of us out there .... and no it's not going to
happen over night .... anyone with half a brain should be able to recognize that.
> This will take time and a lot of education of our legislators, and
> isn't likely to happen any time soon. The second option is to educate
> ferret owners so that they can do the best for their pets. Isn't that
> at least part of what this newsgroup is about? I know I've learned a
> lot in the last three months.
Sorry, I never thought as a ferret as a rodent.
> (I even used to think ferrets were rodents, I'm ashamed to admit.
> That was then, and this is now.)
> >
> >Seven weeks is too young to be selling ferrets, and way to young to have them
> >spayed/neutered and descented ..... imo.
That is only because the practice is accepted. Again .... supply and demand.
> It seems to be a commonly held opinion, but current practice seems to be to sell
> them off that young. My experience with Adric tells me you are probably right.
Yes, but we still need to put our feet down and say ...... STOP. We need to stop
purchasing the ferrets this young and flood Marshall's and Path Valley with letters
stating that the ferrets are being spayed/neutered and descented too early.
How do you prepare someone that purchases one kit from the pet store, that was too
young to be away from it's mother and continually cries because it is too young to
be away from it's mom.
> But... if that's going to be the predominant
> practice, then shouldn't we try and educate people in the care of
> young kits, at least until the practice is changed?
I have yet to attack yet. I speak my mind, and i'm not going to change simply
because someone doesn't feel that it isn't going to change things.
I not only speak up here .... I have letters written to Path Valley and Marshall's
...... along with that i also have written my state officials .... ON many different
animal issues. Including this one.
> Does attacking the breeder and the pet store owner do any good? Will it change
> anything?
>
> Take care,
> Caity
> (who is doing the best she can for Adric, now almost 9 weeks old)
>
> Caitlyn Martin
> ca...@interpath.com
> http://www.angelfire.com/nc/caitmartin
If you do not wish to do anything ..... that is your proragitive .... there are
quite a few that feel that it will acheive anything .... but some pet stores have
gotten the point.
I on the other hand will preach to folks that they shouldn't support Ferret Farms or
puppy/kitty mills .... You do what you choose and I will do what i choose.
Marion E. Wyatt
On Wed, 24 Jun 1998 18:03:31 -0400, po...@ix.netcom.com said:
> Well I got an email saying that you are selling Path Valley Farms ferrets and
> they are only 2 steps above Marshalls that they don't sell for testing and that
> anyone can go and purchase kits from there.
>
> spayed/neutered and descented ..... imo.
>
> Robin & her band of merry mischief makers
7 weeks is perfectly old enough to sell.... depending on the number of
kits in the litter. The more kits the longer it takes them to grow
large enough. But I DO agree that that is WAY TO YOUNG to
spay/neuter/descent them. At 7weeks old they just old enough to have
had their first markings more than a couple weeks. At 7 weeks a ferret
is 1/4 grown and growing FAST :) I have some 7week old fuzzies for
sale now in southern Kentucky, and I always make sure they are eating
good and big enough to go to a new home. Sometimes I hold back a few
that are smaller that I don't think are ready, and let them grow some
more.
> > > >
> > > > Tom & Ellen <sco...@sgi.net> wrote in article
> > > > <01bd9e72$d3f5bec0$478ba6d1@scooter>...
> > > > > I have seven week old ferret kits in all colors for sale. $90 each.
> > They
> > > > > are neutered and descented and come with a one year health guarantee.
> > > > > E-mail me or call (724) 539-0549 for details. Thanks. TOM
> > > > >
> > > > > sco...@sgi.net
--
AmiScorp
Pooh
Hi,
To you maybe but to many of us its not.
Good for you I know I wouldn't buy one from you at 7 weeks of age.
David & Barbra
OK, my 2 cents worth. What makes anyone think that ferret breeders of
any sort are not in it for the profit. One person in a home who breeds
his ferrets to sell isn't in it for the humanitarian reasons. I have
seen just as much abuse in this case as what happens in pet stores. I
have worked with Path Valley Farms , and they are a VERY concerned
breeder...much different from Marshall Farms.
BTW, there is absolutely no proof that neutering and descenting baby
ferrets at a young age affects them at all. This is just opinion held
by individuals and so far has no substantiation in the veternarian
community.
Pick and choose your pets carefully, and do not support abusive
breeders of any sort and you will impact the breeder community to
improve their methods. I think too often it easy to cast spears at the
"Big Guy" industry generically, but some of them are good. No matter
what, I agree the only effective way to make changes is to educate the
pet owner , and their buying habits after that education will drive more
changes then all the caterwauling in the world. How many of us bought
our pets from pet stores that support this "evil industry", and how many
bought them from BYB (Back Yard breeders) with absolutely terrible
conditions because they were cheap....the percentages might be
enlightening. We have pets we adore, we take care of them and love
them, and the world is full of atrocities. But keep in mind, while we
complain about the pet industry and their abuses, there are children out
there starving to death and dying, possibly right around the corner from
you and we can do something about that easily.... but do we? It is
often way too easy to point a finger and blame the others, while
offering nothing to change the situations we abhore but our words.
Caitlyn Martin wrote:
>
> On Wed, 24 Jun 1998 18:03:31 -0400, Pooh <po...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
>
> >Hi,
> >
> >Well I got an email saying that you are selling Path Valley Farms ferrets and
> >they are only 2 steps above Marshalls that they don't sell for testing and that
> >anyone can go and purchase kits from there.
>
> Hi, Robin.
>
> Fact is, Marshall Farms and Path Valley Farms are ferret mills (and
> yes I've been doing research), and they supply most domestic ferrets
> to pet stores. The are for-profit businesses guided by the almighty
> dollar above all else.
>
> It's also a fact that anyone can puchase any legal pet, including
> ferrets,at any pet store, and this isn't likely to change. There's
> never going to be a ferret ownership test. <sigh> We'll always have
> abused animals. Pet stores are for-profit too, and will sell to
> anyone who has enough money.
>
> Unless we take animal ownership out of the free enterprise system,
> none of this will change. If that's so, then we have two options: we
> can work to change the laws regarding the sale of domestic animals.
> This will take time and a lot of education of our legislators, and
> isn't likely to happen any time soon. The second option is to educate
> ferret owners so that they can do the best for their pets. Isn't that
> at least part of what this newsgroup is about? I know I've learned a
> lot in the last three months.
>
> (I even used to think ferrets were rodents, I'm ashamed to admit.
> That was then, and this is now.)
> >
> >Seven weeks is too young to be selling ferrets, and way to young to have them
> >spayed/neutered and descented ..... imo.
>
> It seems to be a commonly held opinion, but current practice seems to
> be to sell them off that young. My experience with Adric tells me you
> are probably right. But... if that's going to be the predominant
> practice, then shouldn't we try and educate people in the care of
> young kits, at least until the practice is changed?
>
Elle
Marion E. Wyatt <amis...@NOSPAM.kih.net> wrote in article
<359321CF.MD-0...@NOSPAM.kih.net>...
>
> 7 weeks is perfectly old enough to sell.... depending on the number of
> kits in the litter. The more kits the longer it takes them to grow
> large enough. But I DO agree that that is WAY TO YOUNG to
> spay/neuter/descent them. At 7weeks old they just old enough to have
> had their first markings more than a couple weeks. At 7 weeks a ferret
> is 1/4 grown and growing FAST :) I have some 7week old fuzzies for
> sale now in southern Kentucky, and I always make sure they are eating
> good and big enough to go to a new home. Sometimes I hold back a few
> that are smaller that I don't think are ready, and let them grow some
> more.
I share the opinion that 7 weeks is way too young to place baby ferrets.
At 7 weeks, most of my kits are still nursing from mom, those that aren't
are eating a soft "baby mush" that I make for them. I feel that kits sold
at 7 weeks must have been "force weaned".
I am entitled to my opinion, just as you are entitled to yours. I think,
however, that you'll find that most of the folks on this NG feel that 7
weeks is way too young.
Pooh
Well if you know anything about the hobby breeder most are not in it for the money
they are in it for the sake of the animal (so to speak) or breed.
Cheers
Robin & her band of merry mischief makers
ferret...@my-dejanews.com
Yes, most hobby breeders pay their expenses primarily "out-of-pocket", the
cost of raising ferrets with consideration and care is not cheap, and a
responsible breeder could never get as much selling ferrets as they spend on
the ferrets care. Also, a responsible breeder will limit the number of kits
they raise in a year, usually do not breed any one female more than once in a
year, and many are waiting until the kits are 10 or even 14 weeks old before
placing them in new homes. I say "adopting out" their babies, rather than
selling them, because most caring breeders consider it more of an adoption
process than a sale, the ferret must be going to a good home, and the price
does not even begin to cover the cost of raising that ferret (financially or
emotionally) so it is not a profit-making-venture. The Only good reason to
breed ferrets is to "improve the breed" by breeding quality, healthy, well
socialized and loved pets. Some hobby breeders also consider it a service to
the ferret community, by making well-raised ferrets available to people as an
alternative to the "factory" ferrets (mass-produced.) There are bad breeders
out there, and you can usually tell who they are, unlike at a pet store you
can go out and see where the ferrets were raised, if you don't like how the
ferrets were cared for, don't buy them. There are also a few "good" breeders
who manage to make a small profit raising their ferrets, just be sure they
are not making a profit at the animals expense, by feeding cheaper food,
skimping on preventive medical care, or by breeding more babies than they can
properly care for (they need/should get attention daily, the adults too,
exercise out of the cage to play, etc.) Most hobby breeders treat their
ferrets as pets first-and-foremost, not as breeding machines. These are the
differences between backyard breeders or ferret mills and responsible,
ethical breeders.
In article <35939242...@ix.netcom.com>,
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/ Now offering spam-free web-based newsreading
Matthew aka Krazy Kritter
I totally agree. Being breeder can be a good thing. There are good breeders,
and besides there are some people that will never adopt a ferret from a
shelter or rescue. Better to get a ferret from a good breeder than a "ferret
mill."
Matthew
Jurgen Martin
> BTW, there is absolutely no proof that neutering and descenting baby
ferrets at a young age affects them at all. This is just opinion held by
individuals and so far has no substantiation in the veternarian
>community.
Well, It's kinda funny thats all.. All the ferrets I have sold are HUGE!!
Most all the ferrets I have sold went to homes that had at least a Path
Valley ferret or a Marshall Ferret.. I couldn't believe what I was
seeing,.!! My ferrets are literitlery 2-3 times the size of those ferrets..
NON of my ferrets have ever had any sort pof desiese.. And all grow so darn
big compared to the others.. My females are the size of their males.!!
So.... I feel neutering and sapying at such a young age sure does do
something to the poor kit..
Sara Roy/ Jurgen Martin
http://www.global-trades.com
Jurgen Martin
I have seven week old ferret kits in all colors for sale. $90 each.They are
neutered and descented and come with a one year health guarantee. E-mail me
or call (724) 539-0549 for details. Thanks. TOM
The breeder I represent produces 400-500 healthy loving ferrets a week. They
breed for temperament and have a facility that is sparkling clean. They have
an on site dedicated vet staff. I have sold over 100 baby ferrets in the
last two months without a single complaint. I follow up a majority of my
sales and always stand behind my breeder. But I guess you guys just know a
whole lot more than they do even if you do not have a DVM. Thanks. TOM POPE,
Pope's Amazing Pets
This is why give Hobby breeders like myself bad names.!! I produce about 40
kits a year ( they all sell) BUT not once have I sold a 7 week old kit nor
have I sold a kit that has been neutered or spayed before it was 6 months
old.. I NEVER decent my kits, and they grow to be 4-6 lb. males and 2-3.5
lb. females.. My vet won't even spay a 5 - 8 week old female kit.. He
doesn't know how anyone really can do it and get EVERYTHING that is supposed
to come out out.!! 7 week old female ferret are VERY tiny.!! BTW, your
selling them for way to cheap too.!! $90.00 is not much money and anyone
could get that and buy their first baby ferret and know nothing,!!! If that
breeder is producing 500 kits a week, thats nuts.!! How many ferrets does he
have.?? He would need at least 100 females all giving birth a week.!! Also
what do you mean by "But I guess you guys just know a whole lot more than
they do even if you do not have a DVM" I sure in the hell have a good DMV
who looks after all my ferrets.. From day 1 until they are sold.!! WE don't
have to be DMV to know whats best for our animals.!! I think it's curl to
fix ANY animal before it reaches sexual maturity.!!
Just my 2 cents
Sara Roy/ Jurgen Martin
http://www.global-trades.com
Ferret, Dog, Cat Products + Web Services
Jurgen Martin
>> 7 weeks is perfectly old enough to sell.... depending on the number of
kits in the litter. The more kits the longer it takes them to grow
>> large enough. But I DO agree that that is WAY TO YOUNG to
>> spay/neuter/descent them. At 7weeks old they just old enough to have had
their first markings more than a couple weeks. At 7 weeks a ferret is 1/4
grown and growing FAST :) I have some 7week old fuzzies for sale now in
southern Kentucky, and I always make sure they are eating good and big
enough to go to a new home. Sometimes I hold back a few that are smaller
that I don't think are ready, and let them grow some more.
I share the opinion that 7 weeks is way too young to place baby ferrets.At 7
weeks, most of my kits are still nursing from mom, those that aren'tare
eating a soft "baby mush" that I make for them. I feel that kits soldat 7
weeks must have been "force weaned".
I agree.. 7 weeks my kits are starting to move away from mom and learn that
the bowl they pushed to the side is their food.. BUT I put mushy food into
the cage when the kits are turn 3 weeks old.. I know they have teeth then
and mom doesn't always want them nursing, so the mush I thought would be a
good idea.. My kits go to their new homes at around 8 - 12 weeks depending
on the kit...
Jurgen Martin
Pooh you are so right.!!!!
Each of my kits sell for $150.00... After having the kit here and getting
it's shots and feeding it.. And depending on how long they stay with us, we
might have to have it sapyed/neutered.. Unless you are a farm/mill you
really can't make money at breeding ferrets.. I do this because I LOVE
ferrets and I want good ferrets to get out into the ferret world.
Sara Roy/ Jurgen Martin
http://www.global-trades.com
>Well if you know anything about the hobby breeder most are not in it for
the money
>they are in it for the sake of the animal (so to speak) or breed.
>
>Cheers
>Robin & her band of merry mischief makers
>
>David & Barbra wrote:
>
>> OK, my 2 cents worth. What makes anyone think that ferret breeders of
>> any sort are not in it for the profit. One person in a home who breeds
>> his ferrets to sell isn't in it for the humanitarian reasons. I have
>> seen just as much abuse in this case as what happens in pet stores. I
>> have worked with Path Valley Farms , and they are a VERY concerned
>> breeder...much different from Marshall Farms.
>> BTW, there is absolutely no proof that neutering and descenting baby
>> ferrets at a young age affects them at all. This is just opinion held
>> by individuals and so far has no substantiation in the veternarian
>> community.
Ariel W.
> BTW, there is absolutely no proof that neutering and descenting baby
> ferrets at a young age affects them at all. This is just opinion held
> by individuals and so far has no substantiation in the veternarian
> community.
Pardon me? There are several sources that say nuetering a kit *is* bad
for them. Let's take the ovaries out of a 5 year old human girl and see if
she develops normally. No. You can't remove sources of hormones and
developmental information from a baby ferret and not see a negative impact
on the adult animal.
Ariel and her fesnyng
William A. Killian
On 26 Jun 1998, Marion E. Wyatt wrote:
> 7 weeks is perfectly old enough to sell.... depending on the number of
> kits in the litter. The more kits the longer it takes them to grow
> large enough.
Not in our opinion. NOTE: Opinion!
We do not wean our kits until the jills tell us to. Seriously. They let
us know. It is almost never sooner than 9 weeks. We prefer 10 to 12
weeks before placement.
Every breeder has to make the decision for themselves.
bill and diane killian
zen and the art of ferrets
mailto:kil...@zenferret.com mailto:kil...@mnsinc.com
http://www.zenferret.com/
William A. Killian
On Fri, 26 Jun 1998, David & Barbra wrote:
> OK, my 2 cents worth. What makes anyone think that ferret breeders of
> any sort are not in it for the profit. One person in a home who breeds
> his ferrets to sell isn't in it for the humanitarian reasons.
I resent that strongly! As for profit. We lose some $10,000 a year on
breeding and rescuing ferrets. There is absolutely no profit in breeding
ferrets on a small scale.
> BTW, there is absolutely no proof that neutering and descenting baby
> ferrets at a young age affects them at all. This is just opinion held
> by individuals and so far has no substantiation in the veternarian
> community.
It is more than obvious than early altering inhibits complete growth of
ferrets. Absolutely. Vets will agree. The early altering prevents the
normal loading of hormones. Boys altered early end up looking like
girls. Girls and boys both have skimpier uscle mass, weaker bone
structure, smaller size in general. If you dispute that then Path Valley
has some pretty scawny ferrets and should change all of their breeding
lines - as a licensed show judge I see thousands of ferrets in a year.
It is not hard at all to spot the vast majority of early alters.
For a ranch, Path Valley is as good as they get. But thats about it. We
do not think them evil but we do acknowledge differences in ranches and
hobby breeders. There are bad ranches and bad "hobby" breeders that are
often called "back yard breeders".
Xoticsr us
>You can't remove sources of hormones and
>developmental information from a baby ferret and not see a negative impact
>on the adult animal.
There is a lot of anecdotal evidence supporting your claim, but not any
scientific evidence (that I am aware of, at this time).
While there is a lot of evidence that it stunts their growth, I have not seen
or heard of any creditable evidence indicating that it actually effects
lifespan or future health concerns. (Granted, there are many other health and
well being concerns regarding the "ferret mills")
I too would love to see this practice discontinued, but unless tremendous
pressure is brought to bear, on the breeders that make it standard practice,
nothing will ever be done about it. To change their process now would
drastically increase the necessary selling price, thus drastically decreasing
their sales. Not many businesses would be willing to risk extinction, in this
manner. We can certainly try to accomplish this, however I sincerely doubt the
efficacy of such an effort anytime soon.
Best regards,
Shawn
Shawn and Debra Pearson
Pearson's Exotics
Woodbridge VA
There are no stupid questions, only unasked ones.
We can all make a contribution to this world by providing
considerate answers to each-others questions.
Mark Richardson
Jurgen Martin wrote in message ...
>Pooh you are so right.!!!!
>Each of my kits sell for $150.00...
I'm shocked at the price's that ferts change hands for in the US. Over here
in England you've been ripped off if you're paying much more than 5 pounds,
what's that around 8 dollars?
I assume the difference is because neutering is uncommon over here and so
many people breed rather than use a neutered hob or jill jab to get their
ferts out of season.
One point rather more on topic....
We all know that operating on small animals is a risky business due to the
difference between a working anaesthetic dose and a fatal one, so to operate
on a sub 7 week old kit is surely even more risky.
Does anyone know what the mortality rate is on these ops?
Obviously their vets do loads of these ops, but even so it must be quite
high.
Mark Richardson
markric...@nospam.ta
(replace nospam.ta with iee.org to email)
ferr...@my-dejanews.com
In article <Pine.BSD.3.90.980626...@user2.mnsinc.com>,
"William A. Killian" <kil...@user2.mnsinc.com> wrote:
>
> On 26 Jun 1998, Marion E. Wyatt wrote:
>
> > 7 weeks is perfectly old enough to sell.... depending on the number of
> > kits in the litter. The more kits the longer it takes them to grow
> > large enough.
>
> Not in our opinion. NOTE: Opinion!
>
> We do not wean our kits until the jills tell us to. Seriously. They let
> us know. It is almost never sooner than 9 weeks. We prefer 10 to 12
> weeks before placement.
>
> Every breeder has to make the decision for themselves.
>
> zen and the art of ferrets
> mailto:kil...@zenferret.com mailto:kil...@mnsinc.com
> http://www.zenferret.com/
>
>
Yep thats my experence as well jill weans the babies somewhere around 10
weeks normaly. So why take them away sooner? why not let nature run its
course? Why neuter so early? The only answer I can see is the almighty
dollar. There may be another reason and I just dont see it. ferretman
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/rg_mkgrp.xp Create Your Own Free Member Forum
ferret...@my-dejanews.com
It must be a whole lot more expensive to breed ferrets in the U.S. then, just
feeding the babies Alone costs alot. A lot of breeders (good or bad) quit
breeding if they cannot get At Least $50-65 each, although there are some
REALLY bad "breeders" who spend almost nothing on taking care of the ferrets,
feed them the cheapest stuff possible and give No other care at all, and sell
the babies for $20-40 each, but these babies may be ill, and their growth may
be stunted by poor nutrition so young. Good breeders spent an incredible
amount of money on their ferrets, even just the basic care (good food,
preventive medical care, etc.) can be expensive, so charging even $150 for a
baby may not cover their expenses, for breeders who do more than the minimum
for their ferrets, that price may not even put a dent in the breeders
expenses. Also, if people aren't willing to pay a certain amount (determined
by breeders in a given area) then that person is considered less likely
(although not always) to be a committed ferret parent. If someone was selling
ferrets for $8 in the paper in the U.S., I shudder to think of the people who
might buy those babies. I have been to a livestock auction, where ferrets
occasionally are put up for auction, and sell for around $10-20, these
animals are in very poor shape, one jill was in heat, near death (she
probably later died of aplastic anemia, since the new owner, who got her for
$10 likely would not pay a vet anything to help save her.) I was not at That
auction, but a friend of mine was, that is where I got the report from, but
an auction I did attend had a ferret there, a Marshall ferret, which I bid
on, but he was sold to a guy who was friends with the auctioneer, without
acknowledging my bid, so I bought the little guy from the guy who bought him,
the guy was just planning on taking the ferret to Another auction to sell him
again. Price is often used by breeders as a screening device, and to at least
have the new owner make a financial committment to the ferret. But the price
often includes so much more than the ferret, it includes vaccinations,
sometimes neutering is included in the price, which, depending on the
location, can be expensive also. Some "breeders" are criticized for selling
their ferrets Too cheap. The care a ferret receives by the breeder often
determines the price, and from "good" breeders at least, often does Not
include any profit at all. Unfortunatley, just because someone pays a high
price for an animal, does not guarantee that they will take good care of that
animal (ferret or otherwise), and it does not guarantee they won't abandon it
later, but often when people get a ferret (dog, cat, whatever) very cheap (or
free), more of those animals May be abandoned or neglected later, because the
owner does not have an investment in that pet. I, for one, would take the
same care of a ferret whether it was $5 or $500, but not everyone will (in
the general public), also an owner who has an investment in a ferret may be
more willing to seek vet care to keep him/her healthy. I wish this were the
only determining factor in ferrets finding suitable, permanent homes, because
one problem could be more easily solved, but some people are just
irresponsible no matter what. I wonder if there would be ferret breeders in
the U.S. if ferrets were only "worth", say $10? I know there may be backyard
breeders, giving ferrets the minimum of care possible, often keeping them in
terrible conditions, but would there be any "good" breeders? And would they
spend as much raising their ferrets? I would definitely be interested in
seeing the opinions of ferret breeders in this newsgroup about this
question... but also, do you feel it would be worth it to sell ferrets for
practically nothing? Do you think you could still find suitable homes for all
your babies? And would you breed less babies to have to find homes for? I do
know one thing, it would no longer be profittable for the ferret mills, does
anyone think they would find a way to stay in business if there was so little
money changing hands for ferrets? Would pet owners spend as much on pampering
their pets? (A hammock for a ferret would end up costing more than the ferret
itself.) I would like to think that, without ferret mills, that breeders
could be VERY selective about the homes their babies got, since there would
be "more demand" for breeder-raised ferrets if there were no ferret mills.
Well, I've ranted on about possibilities, about an issue that may never
develop. I just know that, as long as ferrets cost so much to raise (in the
U.S.) and there are people spending money on acquiring a ferret, that
breeders will charge accordingly (to offset some of their expenses, and to
make the owner have a financial committment to the ferret.) I am also
currious, what kind of care do you think ferrets in Europe, the majority, get
as compared to U.S. ferrets? I would like to think that an animal would be
cared for well regardless of what the owner paid to acquire the animal, maybe
it is just Americans that abandon animals so willingly (again, not All, but
way too many.)
In article <6n2dum$ls4$1...@soap.news.pipex.net>,
ferret...@my-dejanews.com
I may be criticized for saying this, but a ferret "specialist" vet stated to
me that she has "contacts" in one of the large ferret mills (which I will
leave unnamed to avoid criticism for targetting one place) and the reported
mortality rate of early neuter and descenting was around 20% (which may be
higher in other ferret mills, I doubt the percentages would be lower,
although it is possible), this was largely due to anesthetic in such tiny
babies, but occasionally other things occur, hemorraging, etc. And sometimes
not all the reproduction tissue is removed, because the babies are too tiny,
I have read several articles about this being more of a problem with Canadian
imported kits sold to American pet stores. Descenting is also done improperly
and/or incompletely by some ferret mills, most often noted in Canadian
imports, and as we all (probably) know, anal gland/descenting is not even
necessary. Also, early anal gland removal has led to prolapse in some of the
kits, but also forcing them to eat dry food (exclusively) at too young an age
(often when they reach the pet stores) can lead to prolapse. There used to be
many more problems reported about these early neuter and descent surgeries,
either some of the problems have been corrected, or they are just not being
reported as much because they are considered "acceptable" risks with early
surgeries, or maybe it is just that I have not been hearing the complaints,
but people are still making them?
Mark Richardson
ferret...@my-dejanews.com wrote in message
<6n33eq$1mq$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>...
>It must be a whole lot more expensive to breed ferrets in the U.S. then,
just
>feeding the babies Alone costs alot.
Most ferret breeder aren't selling for profit, and couldn't if they wanted
to. Quite simply supply and demand means that people *cannot* charge high
prices.
>Price is often used by breeders as a screening device, and to at least
>have the new owner make a financial committment to the ferret.
There has been some debate among UK ferret people about higher prices
meaning less abandonments and ill treatment. I suspect that it wouldn't
make much difference, you see ill treated and abandoned pedigree dogs
costing many hundreds of pounds. Sadly people who mistreat animals are
likely to do so however much they paid. :o(
> But the price often includes so much more than the ferret, it includes
vaccinations,
>sometimes neutering is included in the price, which, depending on the
>location, can be expensive also.
True, you never see ferrets sold neutered over here, as I said in my last
post neutering isn't all that common.
>but also, do you feel it would be worth it to sell ferrets for
>practically nothing? Do you think you could still find suitable homes for
all
>your babies? And would you breed less babies to have to find homes for? I
do
>know one thing, it would no longer be profittable for the ferret mills,
does
>anyone think they would find a way to stay in business if there was so
little
>money changing hands for ferrets?
AFAIK there are no ferret mills in the UK. Not economically viable - see
above.
>Would pet owners spend as much on pampering
>their pets? (A hammock for a ferret would end up costing more than the
ferret
>itself.)
Ferret toys and hammocks etc aren't all that common, that's probably due to
the poor image of ferrets over here. Also ferrets purely as pets aren't as
common, most ferrets are used as hunting animals also. (Not mine though)
> I am also currious, what kind of care do you think ferrets in Europe, the
majority, get
>as compared to U.S. ferrets? I would like to think that an animal would be
>cared for well regardless of what the owner paid to acquire the animal,
maybe
>it is just Americans that abandon animals so willingly (again, not All, but
>way too many.)
Ferret care is quite variable I think, as I said most ferrets are also
working animals and probably get basic (though not necessarily poor care).
Ferret specific products are still a relatively new thing over here, for
example the first ferret food - James Wellbeloved's Ferret Complete has only
been available for a couple of years. Ferret toys are still not too easy to
find in your local pet store.
BTW do people really buy those ferret clothes? If so, why?
Jurgen Martin
>It must be a whole lot more expensive to breed ferrets in the U.S. then,
just feeding the babies Alone costs alot. A lot of breeders (good or bad)
quit breeding if they cannot get At Least $50-65 each, although there are
some REALLY bad "breeders" who spend almost nothing on taking care of the
Well, I'm glad I don't fall into this caregory.. ALL my ferrets eat Totally
Ferret from the day they can munch it down.. Well, they are getting it
through their mother too..
and sell the babies for $20-40 each, but these babies may be ill, and their
growth may be stunted by poor nutrition so young. Good breeders spent an
incredible amount of money on their ferrets, even just the basic care (good
food, preventive medical care, etc.) can be expensive, so charging even $150
for a baby may not cover their expenses, for breeders who do more than the
minimum for their ferrets, that price may not even put a dent in the
breeders expenses.
You are soo right.!!! I charge $150.00 for a kit, BUT That kit has 2
distemper shots before it leaves me + a full check-up.. They are not
neutered/spayed, I like for them to be able to gorw to full sexual maturity.
Usually runs me about $500.00 a visit.! Depending on the problem and how
many ferrets I bring in.. If people only really knew how much money a
breeder spends on their ferrets.. I just bought 715 lbs of Totally Ferret..
Now that puts a whole in your pocket book.. BUT to me they are worth it.!! I
get rewarded by the kisses I get and all the dooks and war dancing.. Also I
get to watch these special animals grow up and become great pets..
Jurgen Martin
>On Fri, 26 Jun 1998, David & Barbra wrote:
>> OK, my 2 cents worth. What makes anyone think that ferret breeders of
any sort are not in it for the profit. One person in a home who breeds his
ferrets to sell isn't in it for the humanitarian reasons.
Bill Killian Wrote:
>I resent that strongly! As for profit. We lose some $10,000 a year on
breeding and rescuing ferrets. There is absolutely no profit in breeding
ferrets on a small scale.
That is sooo true.!! We also loose WAY more money than we make.. So that
means we never make money off of this..
Eric
Everybody,
I really don't think you are accomplishing anything by having an age
controversy argument in the NG. People are going to sell what they are
going to sell when they want to sell. A little banter about it isn't going
to change the fact. I'm not saying I agree with it, but I don't see
anything coming out of this. The person you initially meant to point this
out to, probably isn't reading these.
Amanda
Pooh
You don't have to understand the point.
If by letting folks know the difference between, Ferret Mills/Farms, BYB's, &
hobby breeders and if even one person comprehends and gets their ferret from
that Reputable Hobby breeder instead of a BYB or a Ferret Farm than something
was accomplished. ;0)
Cheers
Robin & her band of merry mischief makers
Marion E. Wyatt
On Fri, 26 Jun 1998 23:49:38 -0400 (EDT), kil...@user2.mnsinc.com said:
> On 26 Jun 1998, Marion E. Wyatt wrote:
>
> > 7 weeks is perfectly old enough to sell.... depending on the number of
> > kits in the litter. The more kits the longer it takes them to grow
> > large enough.
>
> Not in our opinion. NOTE: Opinion!
Uhm... did I say you weren't entitled to an opinion? What I said above
is simply my opinion. Nothing more, nothing less. I am not here to
start a war or anything else as silly as that, like some people.
> We do not wean our kits until the jills tell us to. Seriously. They let
> us know. It is almost never sooner than 9 weeks. We prefer 10 to 12
> weeks before placement.
>
> Every breeder has to make the decision for themselves.
Yeppers. The breeder and the mother ferret :) I don't know how fast
your kits grow, but by the time mine are 9 weeks old they are as large
as their mother, and the boys are sometimes larger than that by then.
:)
--
AmiScorp
Jurgen Martin
>> We do not wean our kits until the jills tell us to. Seriously. They let
>> us know. It is almost never sooner than 9 weeks. We prefer 10 to 2
weeks before placement.
>> Every breeder has to make the decision for themselves.
>>Yeppers. The breeder and the mother ferret :) I don't know how fast
>your kits grow, but by the time mine are 9 weeks old they are as large as
their mother, and the boys are sometimes larger than that by then.
I have to agree with Ami here.. When my kits are 9 weeks old they are WAY to
big to be nursing from mama.! Last time I let the mother ferret wean her
kits herself, she ended up loosing a nipple, it was chewed off.!!! I put
mushy food in the cage when the kits are 3 weeks old.. They have teeth
then..Usually by the time they are 9 weeks old they are eating mushy food
all the time and eating hard food too..
jas
On 26 Jun 1998, Ariel W. wrote:
> > BTW, there is absolutely no proof that neutering and descenting baby
> > ferrets at a young age affects them at all. This is just opinion held
> > by individuals and so far has no substantiation in the veternarian
> > community.
>
>
> Pardon me? There are several sources that say nuetering a kit *is* bad
> for them. Let's take the ovaries out of a 5 year old human girl and see if
> she develops normally. No. You can't remove sources of hormones and
> developmental information from a baby ferret and not see a negative impact
> on the adult animal.
>
> Ariel and her fesnyng
>
>
Quote your sources please!
-jas
***************************************************************************
"Kittens are cute, but they wouldn't be so cute if they were bigger
than you. Then they could eat you." -Deep Thoughts
jas
Once when I worked in a pet store a guy came in to find out if he could
buy a ferret. When he found that ours where neutered he then went on to
explain that he wanted to buy unaltered ferrets for breeding and wanted to
know where he could get some a.s.a.p. After talking to him for a while, I
realized that he just wanted to do it for a quick buck because seeing that
pet stores where selling them for $100+ gave him the belief that he could
become rich off of them. He didn't know anything about ferrets, and
obviously didn't give a rat's butt about the welfare of the animals that
he was going to breed. He suddenly had a change of heart when he found out
that "yes, ferrets can bite." He then left the store in search for a fancy
small dog to breed instead (we never sold puppies or kittens).
There are wonderful breeders out there, but there are too many morons who
just do it for the money.
On Fri, 26 Jun 1998, David & Barbra wrote:
> OK, my 2 cents worth. What makes anyone think that ferret breeders of
> any sort are not in it for the profit. One person in a home who breeds
> his ferrets to sell isn't in it for the humanitarian reasons. I have
> seen just as much abuse in this case as what happens in pet stores. I
> have worked with Path Valley Farms , and they are a VERY concerned
> breeder...much different from Marshall Farms.
> BTW, there is absolutely no proof that neutering and descenting baby
> ferrets at a young age affects them at all. This is just opinion held
> by individuals and so far has no substantiation in the veternarian
> community.
jas
On Fri, 26 Jun 1998, Pooh wrote:
> Well if you know anything about the hobby breeder most are not in it for the money
> they are in it for the sake of the animal (so to speak) or breed.
Yes, hobby breeders care about their animals, but they wouldn't be hobby
breeders if they didn't. We're talking about sleazy cheap backyard
breeders who do not care for their animals right because they just want
money not because they love ferrets. I've met too many of those.
>
> Cheers
> Robin & her band of merry mischief makers
>
jas
On Fri, 26 Jun 1998, Jurgen Martin wrote:
> > BTW, there is absolutely no proof that neutering and descenting baby
> ferrets at a young age affects them at all. This is just opinion held by
> individuals and so far has no substantiation in the veternarian
> >community.
>
> Well, It's kinda funny thats all.. All the ferrets I have sold are HUGE!!
> Most all the ferrets I have sold went to homes that had at least a Path
> Valley ferret or a Marshall Ferret.. I couldn't believe what I was
> seeing,.!! My ferrets are literitlery 2-3 times the size of those ferrets..
> NON of my ferrets have ever had any sort pof desiese.. And all grow so darn
> big compared to the others.. My females are the size of their males.!!
> So.... I feel neutering and sapying at such a young age sure does do
> something to the poor kit..
>
> Sara Roy/ Jurgen Martin
> http://www.global-trades.com
>
>
>
>
>
Are you so sure its neutering or is it that the ferret mills are doing
something else wrong (bad diet for pregnant jill or kits, stress, etc)?
My sister's ferret (rescue ferret) was neutered at a very young age though
he was not descented and he is ENORMOUS and very healthy at the spry age
of eight.
Personally, I do agree that it's wrong to descent because I've found that
it's useless in keeping down the odor and does the ferret no justice
esthetically or healthwise. My sister's Charlie doesn't smell worse
than the other two she had before that were descented. The only time he
ever sprayed was when the dog came into the room the first week we brought
him home.
jas
I agree that responsible breeders do not make much, but the word to use
hear is RESPONSIBLE. There are jerks out there that will not spend
a dime on their ferrets, because all they want is money and don't really
give a rat's butt about the animals themselves. I've met such people. They
do exist though fortunately they are not as prodiminant in the ferret
community as they are in the dog or cat community, because to buy an
unaltered ferret they must go through a breeder, and usually the best of
breeders carefully screen the people they sell to. Personally, I believe
that no unaltered dog, cat or ferret should ever be sold in a pet store if
they are going to be sold at one at all.
jas
On Fri, 26 Jun 1998, Jurgen Martin wrote:
> Pooh you are so right.!!!!
> Each of my kits sell for $150.00... After having the kit here and getting
> it's shots and feeding it.. And depending on how long they stay with us, we
> might have to have it sapyed/neutered.. Unless you are a farm/mill you
> really can't make money at breeding ferrets.. I do this because I LOVE
> ferrets and I want good ferrets to get out into the ferret world.
You can if you don't care about your animals and don't raise them right.
There are people out there too cheap to properly care for their animals
because they are so hung up on making a profit. Usually their animals are
malnourished and unvetted. Fortunately, these creeps are a little tougher
to find in the ferret community since they have a more difficult time
getting access to an unaltered ferret than a dog or cat, but they DO
exist.
>
> Sara Roy/ Jurgen Martin
> http://www.global-trades.com
>
>
jas
On Sat, 27 Jun 1998, Mark Richardson wrote:
> Jurgen Martin wrote in message ...
> >Pooh you are so right.!!!!
> >Each of my kits sell for $150.00...
>
> I'm shocked at the price's that ferts change hands for in the US. Over here
> in England you've been ripped off if you're paying much more than 5 pounds,
> what's that around 8 dollars?
> I assume the difference is because neutering is uncommon over here and so
> many people breed rather than use a neutered hob or jill jab to get their
> ferts out of season.
>
> One point rather more on topic....
> We all know that operating on small animals is a risky business due to the
> difference between a working anaesthetic dose and a fatal one, so to operate
> on a sub 7 week old kit is surely even more risky.
> Does anyone know what the mortality rate is on these ops?
> Obviously their vets do loads of these ops, but even so it must be quite
> high.
>
> Mark Richardson
> markric...@nospam.ta
> (replace nospam.ta with iee.org to email)
>
>
>
>
Actually, it is about the same as a dog or cat. You are way more likely
to have a jill die of being in prolonged heat than spaying. Of course one
should only use experienced vets. One of our ferrets was killed by a
stupid vet a few years back who gave him an active distemper vaccine when
it's pretty common knowledge that only an inactive vaccine should be used.
Needless to say, out here in the U.S. now it is much easier to find a good
ferret vet due to the gaining popularity of the animal.
I also know that vets tend to use a very mild gas sedative on smaller
animals that knocks them out but won't kill them. This gas (forget the
name) was used on my sugar glider when I had him snipped and he came out
of it splendidly.
jas
That's horrible!!! I would like to see someone investigate and prove it,
because it could change the practices of how these little guys are kept if
it is true.
On Sat, 27 Jun 1998 ferret...@my-dejanews.com wrote:
> I may be criticized for saying this, but a ferret "specialist" vet stated to
> me that she has "contacts" in one of the large ferret mills (which I will
> leave unnamed to avoid criticism for targetting one place) and the reported
> mortality rate of early neuter and descenting was around 20% (which may be
> higher in other ferret mills, I doubt the percentages would be lower,
> although it is possible), this was largely due to anesthetic in such tiny
> babies, but occasionally other things occur, hemorraging, etc. And sometimes
> not all the reproduction tissue is removed, because the babies are too tiny,
> I have read several articles about this being more of a problem with Canadian
> imported kits sold to American pet stores. Descenting is also done improperly
> and/or incompletely by some ferret mills, most often noted in Canadian
> imports, and as we all (probably) know, anal gland/descenting is not even
> necessary. Also, early anal gland removal has led to prolapse in some of the
> kits, but also forcing them to eat dry food (exclusively) at too young an age
> (often when they reach the pet stores) can lead to prolapse. There used to be
> many more problems reported about these early neuter and descent surgeries,
> either some of the problems have been corrected, or they are just not being
> reported as much because they are considered "acceptable" risks with early
> surgeries, or maybe it is just that I have not been hearing the complaints,
> but people are still making them?
>
> In article <6n2dum$ls4$1...@soap.news.pipex.net>,
> "Mark Richardson" <markric...@no.spam.ta> wrote:
>
> > One point rather more on topic....
> > We all know that operating on small animals is a risky business due to the
> > difference between a working anaesthetic dose and a fatal one, so to operate
> > on a sub 7 week old kit is surely even more risky.
> > Does anyone know what the mortality rate is on these ops?
> > Obviously their vets do loads of these ops, but even so it must be quite
> > high.
> >
> > Mark Richardson
> > markric...@nospam.ta
> > (replace nospam.ta with iee.org to email)
> >
> >
>
>
> -----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
> http://www.dejanews.com/rg_mkgrp.xp Create Your Own Free Member Forum
>
>
Pooh
Hi
No we weren't .... it started as a Marshall's/Path Valley ... and neither are hobby
breeders.
Cheers
Robin & her band of merry mischief makers
Pooh
I have 3 MF ferrets that are scrawn balls, and one that was spayed after she came
into heat .... she has much more muscle tone and looks way healthier than the
other 3 MF ferrets.
I have 2 MF male ferrets and the one is very long and lean, actually looks skinny
and Nut Boy is actually has some meat on his bones but ... he has been thinning
out ..... So i can't really say as far as the Males go because I don't have one
that isn't. I can speak for the females that i have though.
Cheers
Robin & her band of merry mischief makers
jas wrote:
> On Fri, 26 Jun 1998, Jurgen Martin wrote:
>
> > > BTW, there is absolutely no proof that neutering and descenting baby
> > ferrets at a young age affects them at all. This is just opinion held by
> > individuals and so far has no substantiation in the veternarian
> > >community.
> >
> > Well, It's kinda funny thats all.. All the ferrets I have sold are HUGE!!
> > Most all the ferrets I have sold went to homes that had at least a Path
> > Valley ferret or a Marshall Ferret.. I couldn't believe what I was
> > seeing,.!! My ferrets are literitlery 2-3 times the size of those ferrets..
> > NON of my ferrets have ever had any sort pof desiese.. And all grow so darn
> > big compared to the others.. My females are the size of their males.!!
> > So.... I feel neutering and sapying at such a young age sure does do
> > something to the poor kit..
> >
> > Sara Roy/ Jurgen Martin
> > http://www.global-trades.com
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
> Are you so sure its neutering or is it that the ferret mills are doing
> something else wrong (bad diet for pregnant jill or kits, stress, etc)?
> My sister's ferret (rescue ferret) was neutered at a very young age though
> he was not descented and he is ENORMOUS and very healthy at the spry age
> of eight.
>
> Personally, I do agree that it's wrong to descent because I've found that
> it's useless in keeping down the odor and does the ferret no justice
> esthetically or healthwise. My sister's Charlie doesn't smell worse
> than the other two she had before that were descented. The only time he
> ever sprayed was when the dog came into the room the first week we brought
> him home.
>
Marks Mail
jas wrote in message ...
>On Sat, 27 Jun 1998, Mark Richardson wrote:
>> Does anyone know what the mortality rate is on these ops?
>> Obviously their vets do loads of these ops, but even so it must be quite
>> high.
>>
>> Mark Richardson
>Actually, it is about the same as a dog or cat.
>-jas
>
I'd have thought that unlikely, quite simply if a one pound animal gets an
extra milligram of anaesthetic it is much more significant than the same
extra dose given to a ten pound animal.
i.e. the line between a safe dose and a fatal dose is much smaller and
therefore the risk greater.
BTW jas, don't forget to snip irrelavent parts of the post you are replying
to ;o)
Pooh
How can that be? Marshall's is one of the largest provider of ferrets and they
are all spayed and neutered before they go out to the general public. (yes
accidents happen that sometimes they may not go out that way)
Do the Puppy and kitty mills send out their kittens and puppies spayed/neutered?
> Actually, it is about the same as a dog or cat. You are way more likely
> to have a jill die of being in prolonged heat than spaying.
Cheers
Robin & her band of merry mischief makers
Avatar
Jurgen Martin (jur...@direct.ca) wrote:
:
: Well, It's kinda funny thats all.. All the ferrets I have sold are HUGE!!
: Most all the ferrets I have sold went to homes that had at least a Path
: Valley ferret or a Marshall Ferret.. I couldn't believe what I was
: seeing,.!! My ferrets are literitlery 2-3 times the size of those ferrets..
: NON of my ferrets have ever had any sort pof desiese.. And all grow so darn
: big compared to the others.. My females are the size of their males.!!
: So.... I feel neutering and sapying at such a young age sure does do
: something to the poor kit..
Out of my four fur kids, by and far the largest *and* most active of my
lot is Percival who is also my *only* Marshal Farms fert. My females are
both small and Loki, who is passed on, was never a big boy by any stretch.
All but Percival came from smaller breeders who did not fix at a very
young age and the like, yet the size of my kids and their dispositions
does not jibe with a lot of the complaints and issues people seem to
constantly bring against Marshall Farms...
Avatar
Xoticsr us
>I agree that responsible breeders do not make much, but the word to use
>hear is RESPONSIBLE.
LOL!!!
I would love to meet just one. I have been losing thousands of dollars every
year. I love ferrets, so I continue, but it sure would be nice to find out
that there is a way to actually make money as a small responsible breeder.
Xoticsr us
>How can that be? Marshall's is one of the largest provider of ferrets and
>they
>are all spayed and neutered before they go out to the general public. (yes
>accidents happen that sometimes they may not go out that way)
>
>Do the Puppy and kitty mills send out their kittens and puppies
>spayed/neutered?
>
>> Actually, it is about the same as a dog or cat. You are way more likely
>> to have a jill die of being in prolonged heat than spaying.
>
>
Is it that common for a cat or dog to die from anemia related to being in
season . Is this something new, or are we having another misunderstanding.:-)
Jurgen Martin
>You can if you don't care about your animals and don't raise them right.
>There are people out there too cheap to properly care for their animals
>because they are so hung up on making a profit. Usually their animals are
>malnourished and unvetted. Fortunately, these creeps are a little tougher
>to find in the ferret community since they have a more difficult time
>getting access to an unaltered ferret than a dog or cat, but they DO
>exist.
Just to let you know, all my ferret eat well and they are all eating Totally
Ferret. :-)
Sara Roy/ Jurgen Martin
http://www.glonbal-trades.com
Pooh
Shawn Hi,
I'll clarify my point ....
How can it be said that the death rate due to spay/neuters be the same as that of
a cat or a dog?
You don't have to have a dog or cat spayed due to aplastic anemia, if you aren't
breeding a ferret it is a must. All of Marshall's ferrets go out spayed/neutered
and descented (yadda yadda see other post) ... kitty and puppy mills don't send
their animals out spayed/neutered. So now, how can you compare the 3? That is
what i was asking.
(the original question was that to the death rate of ferrets that are being
spayed/neutered too earlier)
So, I'm not sure if this clears things up or not. Sorry if it doesn't.
> Robin,
>
> Is it that common for a cat or dog to die from anemia related to being in season
> . Is this something new, or are we having another misunderstanding.:-)
>
> Shawn
>
> Shawn and Debra Pearson
> Pearson's Exotics
> Woodbridge VA
> There are no stupid questions, only unasked ones.
> We can all make a contribution to this world by providing
> considerate answers to each-others questions.
Cheers,
Robin & her band of merry mischief makers
jas
On Tue, 30 Jun 1998, Marks Mail wrote:
>
> jas wrote in message ...
> >On Sat, 27 Jun 1998, Mark Richardson wrote:
> >> Does anyone know what the mortality rate is on these ops?
> >> Obviously their vets do loads of these ops, but even so it must be quite
> >> high.
> >>
> >> Mark Richardson
>
> >Actually, it is about the same as a dog or cat.
> >-jas
> >
>
> I'd have thought that unlikely, quite simply if a one pound animal gets an
> extra milligram of anaesthetic it is much more significant than the same
> extra dose given to a ten pound animal.
> i.e. the line between a safe dose and a fatal dose is much smaller and
> therefore the risk greater.
>
> BTW jas, don't forget to snip irrelavent parts of the post you are replying
> to ;o)
>
> Mark Richardson
> markric...@nospam.ta
> (replace nospam.ta with iee.org to email)
>
>
>
>
Vets use different anesthetics (sp?) on small animals as they do on larger
ones. While dogs and cats are given anestesia via the blood, smaller
critters receive it via a mild gas from which they wake up from as soon as
the gas is turned off. My sugar glider received the second, plus many
people have rats, mice, and rabbits neutered and spayed too. So far I've
seen no male animal that has suffered any ill effects from neutering. As
far as the females go, I haven't seen any problems with jills, rabbits, or
female cats, but it seems that bitches (female dogs) that I've seen have
had more urinary problems after being spayed. I think it is something that
should be investigated more in all animals, because if it is not
beneficial to certain animals (such as female ferrets and rabbits which
can die early if not altered) there should be alternatives such as having
the animal's tubes tied (yes, I've heard vets will do it for dogs).
jas
On Mon, 29 Jun 1998, Pooh wrote:
> I have 3 MF ferrets that are scrawn balls, and one that was spayed after she came
> into heat .... she has much more muscle tone and looks way healthier than the
> other 3 MF ferrets.
>
> I have 2 MF male ferrets and the one is very long and lean, actually looks skinny
> and Nut Boy is actually has some meat on his bones but ... he has been thinning
> out ..... So i can't really say as far as the Males go because I don't have one
> that isn't. I can speak for the females that i have though.
>
> Cheers
> Robin & her band of merry mischief makers
I'd personally like to see more research done on the proper age of spaying
a ferret. I think it is better to let the animal grow and develop some
before doing it. Most people wait with dogs and cats until the animal is
half grown or sexually mature, but my worry is that unless pet stores
suddenly stop selling ferrets the wrong kind of people will buy unaltered
ferrets. Such people will either try to become sleazy backyard breeders or
will be too cheap to spay their jills. Neither of which is very beneficial
to the animal or the reputation of the animal. What can we do about this?
Education only goes so far when there are many people out there that don't
even care.
jas
On 30 Jun 1998, Xoticsr us wrote:
> >How can that be? Marshall's is one of the largest provider of ferrets and
> >they
> >are all spayed and neutered before they go out to the general public. (yes
> >accidents happen that sometimes they may not go out that way)
> >
> >Do the Puppy and kitty mills send out their kittens and puppies
> >spayed/neutered?
> >
> >> Actually, it is about the same as a dog or cat. You are way more likely
> >> to have a jill die of being in prolonged heat than spaying.
> >
> >
> Robin,
>
> Is it that common for a cat or dog to die from anemia related to being in
> season . Is this something new, or are we having another misunderstanding.:-)
>
> Shawn
I meant that the rate of mortality in spaying a ferret is about the same
as a dog or cat. Most animals do fine, but you should never subject a
sickly, very young or weak animal to an operation. The debate here is how
young is too young for ferrets? While working in a pet store, I'd notice
that our Path Valley ferrets where TINY. Now I don't think an operation on
a small animal is bad per say (my sugar glider has been altered and is
tinier than most kits) if the vet is experienced, but if an animal is not
developed enough it can be dangerous. I think it is crucial that ferrets
should be neutered before being sold in a pet store, but perhaps pet
stores should not sell ferrets so young. Unfortunately, pet stores rely on
the cute factor of selling animals and people that may want to buy a baby
ferret on impulse may not feel the same if they saw the animal full grown.
Anyhow, any good ferret book and ferret vet will tell you that you MUST
get you jills spayed before they go into heat unless you are a) going to
breed them b) would be willing to take them to the vet each time for a
hormone shot to take them out of heat. Dogs and cats do not have this
problem, because they are totally different animals. I think it is always
best to get a jill spayed unless you are experienced with recognizing when
a female goes into heat. With some it's harder to tell than others and
you could easily end up with a very sick or dead ferret.
>
>
> Shawn and Debra Pearson
> Pearson's Exotics
> Woodbridge VA
> There are no stupid questions, only unasked ones.
> We can all make a contribution to this world by providing
> considerate answers to each-others questions.
>
>
>
Sam and Karen Smith
jas wrote:
> On Mon, 29 Jun 1998, Pooh wrote:
>
> > I have 3 MF ferrets that are scrawn balls, and one that was spayed after she came
> > into heat .... she has much more muscle tone and looks way healthier than the
> > other 3 MF ferrets.
> >
> > I have 2 MF male ferrets and the one is very long and lean, actually looks skinny
> > and Nut Boy is actually has some meat on his bones but ... he has been thinning
> > out ..... So i can't really say as far as the Males go because I don't have one
> > that isn't. I can speak for the females that i have though.
> >
> > Cheers
> > Robin & her band of merry mischief makers
>
> I'd personally like to see more research done on the proper age of spaying
> a ferret. I think it is better to let the animal grow and develop some
> before doing it. Most people wait with dogs and cats until the animal is
> half grown or sexually mature, but my worry is that unless pet stores
> suddenly stop selling ferrets the wrong kind of people will buy unaltered
> ferrets. Such people will either try to become sleazy backyard breeders or
> will be too cheap to spay their jills. Neither of which is very beneficial
> to the animal or the reputation of the animal. What can we do about this?
> Education only goes so far when there are many people out there that don't
> even care.
>
> -jas
>
This is exactly why shelters in my area are spaying and neutering kittens and puppies
at eight weeks old. They are afraid that people will not do it even if they offer for
free at a later date. The vets I have talked to say that the risk is high that they
will anesthetic problems with an animal so young and that they shouldn't be fixed until
their hormones have a chance to do their thing. But the risk that animals will never be
fixed and therefore cause more unwanted pets out weights the risk to the indivual
animal. One vet told me that they were "only" strays and if someone wanted to adopt
them and they didn't make it through the surgery then most of the time they would just
take another one. Sad.
Sam and Karen Smith
Pooh wrote:
> x-no-archive: yes
>
> Sorry I don't agree with it for whatever reason. Your shelter actually needs a contract
> stating that if they take the animal that "they must" have the animal spayed or neutered
> before the animal reaches a certain age ... all the shelters in my area do this.
>
> When you adopt the animal you get a card and sign a contract stating this and the card must
> be completed by your vet. If the person doesn't have this done they relinquish the rights
> to the animal back to the shelter. Now whether they really inforce this or not i haven't
> the foggiest ... I always picked older cats that were already spayed/neutered.
>
They told me that this was tried and failed. They said that really didn't have the man power to
follow up on all the animals they adopt out. I think the situation is terrible but there
doesn't seem to be another solution. I have tried to help but honestly they don't seem to want
help form "an outsider". I offered to groom and dip the dogs for free so more could find home
and some other stuff too. After I told them that I would never donate money to a shelter that
put a time limit on a dogs life but would be happy to donate food, toys, etc. I never heard
from them again. I do talk to my vet about it though, from time to time. He refuses to do
surgery on the little one's but there are planty of vets here that don't care one way or the
other as long as they get paid. Like I said, it's a very bad situation.
Karen
> > This is exactly why shelters in my area are spaying and neutering kittens and puppies at
> > eight weeks old. They are afraid that people will not do it even if they offer for free
> > at a later date. The vets I have talked to say that the risk is high that they will
> > anesthetic problems with an animal so young and that they shouldn't be fixed until their
> > hormones have a chance to do their thing. But the risk that animals will never be fixed
> > and therefore cause more unwanted pets out weights the risk to the indivual animal. One
> > vet told me that they were "only" strays and if someone wanted to adopt them and they
> > didn't make it through the surgery then most of the time they would just take another
> > one. Sad.
>
> --
> Cheers
> Robin & her band of merry mischief makers
> http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Estates/7945
Brian Henderson
Pooh <po...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
>Sorry I don't agree with it for whatever reason. Your shelter actually needs a contract
>stating that if they take the animal that "they must" have the animal spayed or neutered
>before the animal reaches a certain age ... all the shelters in my area do this.
Which is all well and good, but the facts are that only a certain
percentage of people who swear up and down that they will have their
animals altered actually do. In this area, when you get the animal
out of the shelter, you have to pay for the alteration up front, and
over 30% of the people never have the surgery done, even though
they've already PAID for it!
Brian Henderson
Sam and Karen Smith <ani...@sccoast.net> wrote:
>They told me that this was tried and failed. They said that really didn't have the man power to
>follow up on all the animals they adopt out. I think the situation is terrible but there
>doesn't seem to be another solution. I have tried to help but honestly they don't seem to want
>help form "an outsider". I offered to groom and dip the dogs for free so more could find home
>and some other stuff too. After I told them that I would never donate money to a shelter that
>put a time limit on a dogs life but would be happy to donate food, toys, etc. I never heard
>from them again. I do talk to my vet about it though, from time to time. He refuses to do
>surgery on the little one's but there are planty of vets here that don't care one way or the
>other as long as they get paid. Like I said, it's a very bad situation.
True, but I'd love to see the licensing requirements be so vastly
expensive for unaltered animals that everyone would be fighting to get
their animals spayed and neutered. If it cost an altered animal $8 a
year, and an unaltered animal $300 a year, you'd better believe that
people are going to get it done.
And anyone who doesn't have their animals registered is subject to a
$1000 fine. Per animal.
Sam and Karen Smith
Brian Henderson wrote:
Great idea. Once again the man power would be hard to come by to inforce it but still I think a lot
of people would get a license. Right now in this county, you don't have to have a license at all.
Karen
Brian Henderson
Pooh <po...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
>This is fine and dandy for the average Joe and doesn't mean much to the puppy and kitty mills ....
>but you do something like that and you're putting the folks that care about a breed or species and
>only produce one or 2 litters per year and wait til the animal is fully developed to breed it ....
>that will put them out of business. For the hobby breeder is lucky to make any money .... they
>normally put out more than they make.
I'm not a big fan of hobby breeders in the first place. As far as I
am concerned, just because you own two animals that can breed, does
not mean that you should breed them. Very few pure hobby breeders
have the money or the knowledge to really understand what they are
doing.
Let me say that by 'hobby breeder', I include people who really do
want to produce the best animals they can, but are really in it to
make some money on the deal. I can't tell you how many times I run
into the people who, because they want to buy something, decide to
crank out another litter of puppies.
>Which leaves the puppy/kitty mills to produce even more animals.
No, the puppy mills would be out of business too, they certainly
couldn't survive under those requirements any more than anyone else.
Janon19
kind of license for keeping unaltered animals, with the express purpose of
breeding...and then put a limit on the number of litters allowed to be
produced? this would allow those breeders who were serious about prolonging
their lines a way to do it, while discouraging irresponsible breeders because
it wouldn't be profitable if you could only have a couple litters a year or
whatever? it might improve the quality of the animals being bred, as well...if
you can only produce so many, you'll be encouraged to produce the best animals
possible, instead of as many animals as possible. these are just thoughts from
a *very* inexperienced animal lover :)
jen
Xoticsr us
breeders as well. It is much easier to handle more ferrets, once you already
care for some. It is also important to note that a requirement like that would
be nigh on impossible to enforce. Even now, the animal control folks can't
even keep up with just the pet shops. Without citizens reporting abuses, they
would miss 90% of the problems.
Your thoughts were certainly nice, however a bit impractical. Keep trying
though. I don't have an answer yet either. If we keep trying, maybe we will
hit on something that could work.
Shawn
Annie Styer
jas wrote in message ...
>
>> > BTW, there is absolutely no proof that neutering and descenting
baby
>> > ferrets at a young age affects them at all. This is just opinion held
>> > by individuals and so far has no substantiation in the veternarian
>> > community.
>> >>
>> for them. Let's take the ovaries out of a 5 year old human girl and see
if
>> she develops normally. No. You can't remove sources of hormones and
>> developmental information from a baby ferret and not see a negative
impact
>> on the adult animal.
>>
>> Ariel and her fesnyng
I happen to agree with Ariel. I have been told by a vet and seen first hand
that early altering does affect the ferret. Usually the ferrets don't grow
quite as large and there is a change in the muscle composition. Also
apparently there may be an increased chance of certain types of diseases.
Ann
STUDENT
coat as winter approaches. ferrets do not get their full colour until around
two years of age. this could be why some or no change is detected. i have 3
female ferrets, none have been desexed. their winter coat is magnificent. one
of my ferrets is white in summer with grey hairs down her back and tail. In
winter it turns real thick, shiny whitr and creamy white. i know i will have
to desex her one day, but at the prospect of her loosing her natural coat, as
it dosen't return quite the same, i don't want to. she is 1yr and 9 months old
and so hasn't got her full coat. this is her second winter.
i haven't heard of muscle retardation or hormonal problems.
we have seen around 6 vets, all of whom know little, if not nothing about
ferrets. i would not take the advice of a vet about this kind of topic unless
he is an expert on ferrets.
jen. j.gre...@student.canberra.edu.au
essande...@gmail.com
> I have seven week old ferret kits in all colors for sale. $90 each. They
> are neutered and descented and come with a one year health guarantee.
> E-mail me or call (724) 539-0549 for details. Thanks. TOM
>
> sco...@sgi.net
I was wondering if u still have any ferret kits available, I am looking possibly for about 6-7 kits, please email me back and let me know if u have any available please, my email address is EsSande...@gmail.com
totallyf...@gmail.com
barbara...@gmail.com
august...@gmail.com
country...@gmail.com
Nzreli...@icloud.com
Thank you,
Nancy
