ANOTHER QUESTION ABOUT SNAKES

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Paul Alioshin

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Apr 18, 1991, 6:17:18 PM4/18/91
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I actually have to things:

Since the weather got warmer my corn snake
is alway on the cold part of the aquarium. I have
have the tank heated on low (90), and the other
half is has nothing. Anyway, I cannot get the heated
side any lower cause I am using a heating pad, but 90
should be fine for a baby corn. Problem is, he is
alway on the other side of the cage which is in the
70s. Any ideas?

Also,

If anyone lives in the South Bay (Sunnyvalue type area) in
California and is good at nursing very sick snakes back to good
health, there is a sick baby red-tail boa that really needs attention.
I went into Monett's Pet Store in Sunnyvalue and saw this poor snake.
I was told that the snake probably hasn't eaten since it was born adn
the manager said that he wont'
bring a vet out. If anyone is interested please check it out.

Thanks

Lisa

Peter P Donohue

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Apr 19, 1991, 11:28:47 AM4/19/91
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In article <23...@unix.SRI.COM>, alio...@unix.SRI.COM (Paul Alioshin) writes...

>I actually have to things:
>
>Since the weather got warmer my corn snake
>is alway on the cold part of the aquarium. I have
>have the tank heated on low (90), and the other
>half is has nothing. Anyway, I cannot get the heated
>side any lower cause I am using a heating pad, but 90
>should be fine for a baby corn. Problem is, he is
>alway on the other side of the cage which is in the
>70s. Any ideas?

Corn snakes are indigenous to the southern U.S. / Northern Mexico.
They are used to weather that matches these regions. The 70 degrees
end is more appropriate for the snake than 90 degrees. the snake will
survive at that temperature, but will probably prefer it a bit cooler.
I have two corns and they seem quite happy with room temperature
(about 65-70 degrees). I tried a heating pad, but took it out
when I couldn't get it to go below 95 degrees, which is (in my
opinion) too hot for a North American snake. I think that the 65
to 70 degree range is a bit cool, though. I'd like to get it into
the 70's.

Pete
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Peter P. Donohue - University at Buffalo, Graduate School of Management
bitnet: V105MAHS@UBVMS . "Education is a journey
internet: V105...@UBVMS.CC.BUFFALO.EDU . not a destination..."

Gary J. Sullivan

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Apr 19, 1991, 11:43:13 PM4/19/91
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In article <71...@eerie.acsu.Buffalo.EDU> v105...@ubvmsa.cc.buffalo.edu writes:
>In article <23...@unix.SRI.COM>, alio...@unix.SRI.COM (Paul Alioshin) writes...
>>have the tank heated on low (90), and the other
>>half is has nothing. Anyway, I cannot get the heated
>>side any lower cause I am using a heating pad, but 90
>>should be fine for a baby corn. Problem is, he is

> I have two corns and they seem quite happy with room temperature


>(about 65-70 degrees). I tried a heating pad, but took it out
>when I couldn't get it to go below 95 degrees, which is (in my

Hey folks, both of you should run out and get a rheostat, that will
allow you to control the heat pad. They sell them in lots of places.
The best kind for you is the kind that plugs into the wall and then
you plug your heat pad into it. I got my favorite ones at a lighting
store. You can get them mail-order (sold under the name Electro-Kennel
control) from R.C.Steele, Inc. 1-800-272-0234, 1989 Transit Way, Brockport
NJ, for 17.95. (but those aren't as good as the one I found at the lighting
store for about 22.00.) They're good for heat pads and hot rocks and heat
tape and such (I've got one on each).

90 degrees does sound too hot for corns, but 65-70 sounds too low.
I give mine a range of 75-85-90. It's important to give it a range
of temperatures to choose from, and to let the temp vary some
depending on the time of day and such--the temp shouldn't be too
monotonous.
--

Gary Sullivan
(sull...@seas.ucla.edu or sull...@icsl.ucla.edu)

Gary J. Sullivan

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Apr 20, 1991, 12:46:13 AM4/20/91
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I am not the person selling this, but since I saw some questions on the net
regarding the price of food animals for snakes, I thought some folks might
be interested. Contact the person below for information, not me. I don't
even know the guy. (I downloaded this from HERP-NET)

S c o t t D . M c C u r l e y
R.D. #1, Box 1081
Mohnton, PA 19540
(215) 775-7298

Frozen Mice (cost per mouse)

Pinks (for fuzzy mice-add $.02 per fuzzy to pink price)
1-9 10-24 25-49 50-99 100-up
$ .48 $ .44 $ .42 $ .40 $ .34

Small to Medium sizes
1-9 10-24 25-49 50-99 100-up
$ .56 $ .54 $ .52 $ .50 $ .45

HUGE Adults (retired breeders)
1-9 10-24 25-49 50-99 100-up
$ .70 $ .69 $ .67 $ .65 $ .59
Multiples of 500--$ .57

Frozen Rats (cost per rat)

Pinks (for fuzzy rats-add $ .05 per fuzzy to pink price)
1-9 10-24 25-49 50-99 100-up
$ .50 $ .46 $ .44 $ .42 $ .38

Small to medium sizes
1-9 10-24 25-49 50-99 100-up
$ 1.15 $ 1.10 $ 1.05 $ 1.00 $ .90
Multiples of 300--$ .87

Large (range from 1/2 to 3/4 lbs. each)
1-4 5-9 10-19 20-up
$ 2.00 $ 1.95 $ 1.90 $ 1.80
Multiples of 60--$ 1.75

Rabbits

Size and prices subject to availablity and quantity
desired. Call or write for more information. Rabbits may
be purchased live or frozen.

Prices quoted above are subject to change without notice.

These animals can be delivered to southeastern PA (Reading, Allentown,
and Philadelphia areas.) I will consider shipping some large orders
thru "Air Frieght," if desired. A minimum of order of $ 80.00 is
required on all orders to be delivered. There is a minimum fee of
$ 2.00 for all deliveries. An extra fee may be added at time of
delivery to cover gas expenditures. Orders will be filled as soon as
possible (usually 10-14 days.) All orders picked up in Mohnton must be
paid in cash or money order. Orders large enough to fill a box can be
sent to most areas of PA, NJ, and DE by UPS for $ 2.00 to $ 8.00.
These orders might include a box charge of $ 5.00 (inquire).

A 15% discount will be subtracted to all orders exceeding $ 400.00. If
possible I will delay your order for a few weeks so that a group of
orders may total over $ 400.00. In this case, the discount will apply
to all orders of the group. In order to help you with this discount,
please order well in advance of your need for the rodents.

One dollar may be subtracted from each order of one hundred pink mice
recieved between March 1 and March 15, 1991.

Trades for snakes will be accepted in some instances.

Write or call for my 1991 snake hatchling and surplus list.

Gary J. Sullivan

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Apr 20, 1991, 12:48:08 AM4/20/91
to
Dowloaded from HERP-NET. I am not the person selling these animals, don't
contact me about them. Contact the guy listed below.

S c o t t D . M c C u r l e y

10 Tudor Court
RD #1, Box 1081


Mohnton, PA 19540
(215) 775-7298

POTENTIAL OFFSPRING FOR 1991
(all snakes are hatchlings unless otherwise noted)

Burmese Pythons (Python molurus bivitattus)
normal ..................................................... $ 85.00

California kingsnakes (Lampropeltis getulus californiae)
normal-(brown and yellow) striped phase ...................... 20.00
banded or abberant phases ............................ 22.50
normal-Desert phase (banded-black and white) incredible!...... 45.00
heterozygous-(brown and yellow) striped phase ................ 30.00
banded or abberant phases ............................ 32.50
albino-striped phase ......................................... 40.00
banded or abberant phases ............................ 45.00

Prairie Kingsnakes (Lampropeltis calligaster calligaster)
albino (my female has retained her juvenile red coloring) .... 75.00

Red Rat or Corn snakes (Elaphe guttata guttata)
red albino (amelanistic) ..................................... 25.00
red albino-heterozygous for snow ............................. 35.00
snow ......................................................... 55.00

PROVEN BREEDERS
(available in late Spring and early summer)

California kingsnakes (Lampropeltis getulus californiae)
normal-striped male (brown and yellow) ..................... $ 85.00
normal-striped male (dark brown and yellow w/ brown ventral) . 85.00
normal-striped female (coloring same as above) ............... 85.00
normal-banded female (brown and yellow) ...................... 85.00
heterozygous-banded male (brown and yellow) ................. 100.00
albino-striped female ....................................... 150.00

Burmese Pythons (Python molurus bivitattus)
Breeding group-2 males and 2 females from 10 to 14 feet . BEST OFFER

**** TERMS ****


These animals will be healthy and flawless (unless otherwise mentioned)
upon delivery or receipt. All snakes will be correctly sexed (if
desired.) I will witness the feeding of all these animals at least
twice before they are sold and, therefore, I will guarantee their
health (when kept under reasonable conditions) for seven days after
purchase. Also, some species can be sold in unrelated pairs
(inquire). I am always looking to trade for "neat stuff."

If you would like to reserve a specific hatchling a deposit of 20% will
be required. This may be paid with a personal check. If the
"reserved" hatchling is not produced this deposit will be refunded in
full or used as credit toward the purchase of another animal. This is
your choice. However, if the hatchling is produced and it is no longer
desired the deposit will be forfeited.

Quantity discounts will be available on the pythons beginning in June
and on all other hatchlings beginning September 15. If a snake is
desired that is not on my list, please contact me. I occasionally
broker snakes for other breeders and chances are that I could find the
snake you desire.

All orders must be paid in advance with either a money order, bank
certified check or cash. If a personal check is presented as payment,
a grace period of fifteen days must elapse until the check clears
before any animal will be sent, delivered or available for pick-up.
Orders under $ 200.00 may require a $ 5.00 box charge. All animals
will be sent "Air Freight" and if possible US Air will be used.

Mara Ulis

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Apr 25, 1991, 2:24:13 PM4/25/91
to
In article <24...@lee.SEAS.UCLA.EDU> sull...@edison.seas.ucla.edu (Gary J. Sullivan) writes:
>I am not the person selling this, but since I saw some questions on the net
>regarding the price of food animals for snakes, I thought some folks might
>be interested. Contact the person below for information, not me. I don't
>even know the guy. (I downloaded this from HERP-NET)
>
> Frozen Mice (cost per mouse)

Stuff deleted
>
> Rabbits


>
>
>Write or call for my 1991 snake hatchling and surplus list.
>--
>
> Gary Sullivan
> (sull...@seas.ucla.edu or sull...@icsl.ucla.edu)

HOW DISGUSTING!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

--
^-^ ^-^ ^-^ ^-^ ^-^ ^-^ ^-^ ^-^ ^-^ ^-^ ^-^ ^-^ ^-^ ^-^ ^-^ ^-^ ^-^ ^-^ ^-^ ^-^
"They cannot speak. We can. Those who are /\ /\
articulate must be the voices of those who 0 0
are voiceless." =^=

Fishhead

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Apr 26, 1991, 2:45:21 AM4/26/91
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In article <1991Apr25.1...@unislc.uucp> m...@unislc.UUCP (Mara Ulis,B2E10,5345) writes:
>In article <24...@lee.SEAS.UCLA.EDU> sull...@edison.seas.ucla.edu (Gary J. Sullivan) writes:
>>[ad for mice and rabbits for sale as snake food deleted]
>
>HOW DISGUSTING!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
What, can't handle the real world?

bu...@cavlry.enet.dec.com

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Apr 26, 1991, 9:54:03 AM4/26/91
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>From: m...@unislc.uucp (Mara Ulis)
>
>HOW DISGUSTING!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Oh, c'mon...it's a very natural thing.

Buck, snake owner

Debbie Forest

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Apr 26, 1991, 11:05:42 AM4/26/91
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In article <1991Apr25.1...@unislc.uucp> m...@unislc.UUCP (Mara Ulis,B2E10,5345) writes:
>In article <24...@lee.SEAS.UCLA.EDU> sull...@edison.seas.ucla.edu (Gary J. Sullivan) writes:
[article on snake food (frozen mice and rats) for sale[

>HOW DISGUSTING!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

another reason to vote YES for creating rec.pets.cats. get the sweet
inocent cat people away from the nasty mouse-killer snake people. ;-)
geez.... cats never eat mice!!! they do? well, ok, but not FROZEN ones.
:-)

STella

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Apr 27, 1991, 2:31:34 PM4/27/91
to
>In article <1991Apr25.1...@unislc.uucp> m...@unislc.UUCP (Mara Ulis,B2E10,5345) writes:
>>In article <24...@lee.SEAS.UCLA.EDU> sull...@edison.seas.ucla.edu (Gary J. Sullivan) writes:
>[article on snake food (frozen mice and rats) for sale[
>
In article <11...@uwm.edu> deb...@csd4.csd.uwm.edu (Debbie Forest) writes:
>>HOW DISGUSTING!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Debbie, it's hard enough to interest a snake that's interested in live
food in microwaved mouse. You want 'em to eat rice cakes?

Cats are strongly carnivorous -- unless you're a world-class
nutritionist, you cannot maintain a cat on a vegetarian diet (I'm
firmly convinced the only such cat I knew would NOT have survived
without my assistance (I smuggled it meat, and released mice in its
house)).

Many SNAKES are exclusively carnivorous. (Should that be _all_ snakes
are? I can think of no non-carnivorous snakes....)

>another reason to vote YES for creating rec.pets.cats. get the sweet
>inocent cat people away from the nasty mouse-killer snake people. ;-)
>geez.... cats never eat mice!!! they do? well, ok, but not FROZEN ones.
>:-)

Mara, I am a cat people, but if you think I'm sweet and innocent, try
again. I find a mouse in my space, I'll pick it up by its tail, drop
it into a jar, assemble the cats in the bathroom (this requires only
holding the jar under their noses till they join the parade), and pour
the mouse into the bathtub. They play "lions and christians", and
I've never had much of a mouse problem.

Debbie, is it the visual image of a crate of frozen rats? If that's
what's bugging you, well, I understand that -- all those stiff little
mousies nose-to-tail, freezerburn on their delicate ears -- I'd rather
not see such things. But then, when I had part-custody of Monty
(Burmese), we fed live food. I suspect the ratties and mousies would
have prefered being lightly and humanely killed and quick-frozen, but
Monty's preference was the deciding vote. If I have a snake again,
sometime, I'll check into rec.pets.snakes, and ask how one convinces a
stubborn snake dead food's OK. (Do you have to poke the ratties and
mousies with a fork before you nuke 'em? But how DO you persuade a
snake that something that doesn't move, and isn't quite the right
temp, IS food? Does anyone ever accidentally traumatize their snake
by nuking the ratlet too warm? Whatever. These aren't serious
questions right now, because all I have, pet-wise, is one husband (who
does not eat rodents at all), and five cats, none of whom fancy frozen
mice, all of whom are willing to handle the "lightly killed" part
themselves.)

STe...@xanadu.com 1016 E. El Camino Real, #302, Sunnyvale, CA 94087
(thelema.uucp seems to work for some, thelema.com has no business working)

Debbie Forest

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Apr 30, 1991, 8:30:57 PM4/30/91
to
In article <1991Apr27....@thelema.uucp> STe...@thelema.uucp (STella) writes:
>>In article <1991Apr25.1...@unislc.uucp> m...@unislc.UUCP (Mara Ulis,B2E10,5345) writes:
>>>In article <24...@lee.SEAS.UCLA.EDU> sull...@edison.seas.ucla.edu (Gary J. Sullivan) writes:
>>[article on snake food (frozen mice and rats) for sale[
>>
>In article <11...@uwm.edu> deb...@csd4.csd.uwm.edu (Debbie Forest) writes:
>>>HOW DISGUSTING!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
>
>Debbie, it's hard enough to interest a snake that's interested in live
>food in microwaved mouse. You want 'em to eat rice cakes?

WHOA STELLA!!!!!
_i_ did NOT say it was disgusting. PLEASE be careful who you're
attrributing what to. MARA said it was disgusting. _i_ responded to her
article, basically saying she should get in touch with the real world. i
do NOT appreciated being belittled for saying her remarks are naive.

>>another reason to vote YES for creating rec.pets.cats. get the sweet
>>inocent cat people away from the nasty mouse-killer snake people. ;-)
>>geez.... cats never eat mice!!! they do? well, ok, but not FROZEN ones.
>>:-)

THIS was my response to mara. it was intended to be drippingly sarcastic.

>Mara, I am a cat people, but if you think I'm sweet and innocent, try
>again.

>Debbie, is it the visual image of a crate of frozen rats? If that's


>what's bugging you, well, I understand that -- all those stiff little

snakes gotta eat. doesn't bother ME. bothers mara apparently. again, get
your quotes straight!
the only way that _i_ think frozen mice is gross is that if i were a snake,
as you say, i'm sure i'd prefer the fresh variety. but frozen is certainly
more convenient for the feeder.

Eric A Schwartz

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May 1, 1991, 2:08:25 AM5/1/91
to
In article <1991Apr27....@thelema.uucp> STe...@thelema.uucp (STella) writes:
>>In article <1991Apr25.1...@unislc.uucp> m...@unislc.UUCP (Mara Ulis,B2E10,5345) writes:
>>>In article <24...@lee.SEAS.UCLA.EDU> sull...@edison.seas.ucla.edu (Gary J. Sullivan) writes:
>>[article on snake food (frozen mice and rats) for sale[
>>
>In article <11...@uwm.edu> deb...@csd4.csd.uwm.edu (Debbie Forest) writes:
>
>Many SNAKES are exclusively carnivorous. (Should that be _all_ snakes
>are? I can think of no non-carnivorous snakes....)
>
There is one type that eats only egges, but that's possibly carnivorous.
All snakes are predators, except that one.

Eric A. Schwartz
email to: ot...@rpi.edu

bu...@cavlry.enet.dec.com

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May 1, 1991, 9:32:30 AM5/1/91
to
Time for rec.pets.cats methinks!

Jennifer Thompson

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May 1, 1991, 1:42:23 PM5/1/91
to
In article <1991Apr27....@thelema.uucp> STe...@thelema.uucp (STella) writes:
>
>Debbie, it's hard enough to interest a snake that's interested in live
>food in microwaved mouse. You want 'em to eat rice cakes?

(stuff deleted)


>
>without my assistance (I smuggled it meat, and released mice in its
>house)).

(more stuff deleted)



>
>Mara, I am a cat people, but if you think I'm sweet and innocent, try
>again. I find a mouse in my space, I'll pick it up by its tail, drop
>it into a jar, assemble the cats in the bathroom (this requires only
>holding the jar under their noses till they join the parade), and pour
>the mouse into the bathtub. They play "lions and christians", and
>I've never had much of a mouse problem.

(and yet MORE gross stuff deleted)


>
>what's bugging you, well, I understand that -- all those stiff little
>mousies nose-to-tail, freezerburn on their delicate ears -- I'd rather
>not see such things. But then, when I had part-custody of Monty
>(Burmese), we fed live food. I suspect the ratties and mousies would

(and still more gross, callous remarks deleted)

>stubborn snake dead food's OK. (Do you have to poke the ratties and
>mousies with a fork before you nuke 'em? But how DO you persuade a

(blah, blah, blah)

>temp, IS food? Does anyone ever accidentally traumatize their snake
>by nuking the ratlet too warm? Whatever. These aren't serious
>questions right now, because all I have, pet-wise, is one husband (who
>does not eat rodents at all), and five cats, none of whom fancy frozen
>mice, all of whom are willing to handle the "lightly killed" part
>themselves.)
>
>STe...@xanadu.com 1016 E. El Camino Real, #302, Sunnyvale, CA 94087

I found this article truly offensive. I actually started to feel sick
reading it. I understand that some people like to keep snakes as pets,
and that snakes must eat live food, but must we discuss it here, where
a lot of the people care about and have mice, rats and rabbits as pets?
Also, I think that a lot of the graphic details that were given here re:
nuking animals, freezing them, etc. were unecessary to get the point
across. Sounds like the poster wanted to get a rise out of some of us.
Well, it worked.

Maybe there should be a separate newsgroup for reptile owners. That way
they can feel free to discuss different techniques of feeding little
mice to their snakes, how much a box of 20 frozen bunnies is going for,
etc. without upsetting other people who have rodents as pets.

Just my $.02.

Jennifer

--
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
uunet!hammer!jlt
j...@hammer.idsila.com

Roger Noe

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May 2, 1991, 4:09:02 AM5/2/91
to
In article <5...@hammer.UUCP> j...@hammer.UUCP (Jennifer Thompson) writes:
>In article <1991Apr27....@thelema.uucp> STe...@thelema.uucp (STella) writes:
>>...I am a cat people, but if you think I'm sweet and innocent, try

>>again. I find a mouse in my space, I'll pick it up by its tail, drop
>>it into a jar, assemble the cats in the bathroom (this requires only
>>holding the jar under their noses till they join the parade), and pour
>>the mouse into the bathtub. They play "lions and christians", and
>>I've never had much of a mouse problem.
>
>(and yet MORE gross stuff deleted)

Jennifer, this is not gross, this is HILARIOUS! Everytime I re-read it
I get to laughing so hard I can't even see and my face hurts! I've
mentioned this wonderful notion to the pride for which I am the appointed
can opener with the opposable thumbs and received in response 6 pointed
ears in favor, none against. We can't wait to start playing the exciting
home game version in our own bathroom Coliseum!

>I found this article truly offensive. I actually started to feel sick
>reading it. I understand that some people like to keep snakes as pets,
>and that snakes must eat live food, but must we discuss it here, where
>a lot of the people care about and have mice, rats and rabbits as pets?

Hey, law of the jungle. Eat or be eaten. (Or both, but this is rec.pets,
not alt.sex. ;-) Cats and snakes are higher up the food chain than your
precious rodents. How can anyone keep VERMIN as pets? Their primary
purpose in nature (says the one with both eyes in the front of his head)
is to provide food and sometimes entertainment for higher animals. There
are few things more satisfying than watching a nice, plump rabbit being
chased by an efficient, highly evolved hunter kitty. That look those
rabbits get on their faces - I like to think it's a primitive kind of
realization that their entire pitiful lives of munching grass have led
only to this moment of sheer terror and that they will shortly be cat
food - is so rewarding. And then the helpless squeals of alarm they emit
as claws rake them is enough to make me want to run after them myself!
But most of all, that unforgettable moment when those razor-sharp teeth,
"mandibles of death" as Calvin and Hobbes would say, sink into that flesh
and the warm blood starts coursing over the majestic feline's lips...before
the vanquished vermin's heart has the opportunity to beat one more time,
those teeth slip in between vertebrae and slice ever so cleanly through
the spinal cord, immediately making the prey an EX-rabbit. (As if the
lesser being even had any real USE for a central nervous system - what
folly!) Now THAT is nature at its best. It's a statement of superiority,
a way of saying "I am CAT, you are DINNER." The ensuing scene, of chewing
open the belly of the former animal, and savoring its internal organs,
is also pleasurable, but in a much more relaxing way.

Now I've done it, I'm hungry. I wonder what I can find on the lawn
at 2:30 a.m. ...

>Maybe there should be a separate newsgroup for reptile owners. That way
>they can feel free to discuss different techniques of feeding little
>mice to their snakes, how much a box of 20 frozen bunnies is going for,
>etc. without upsetting other people who have rodents as pets.

How about splitting up the newsgroup this way: rec.pets.predators and
rec.pets.prey? You can run to rec.pets.prey, but you can't hide!
--
"Cruel, but composed and bland/Dumb, inscrutable and grand/
So Tiberius might have sat/Had Tiberius been a cat." (Matthew Arnold)

Roger Noe roge...@uiuc.edu
Department of Computer Science n...@cs.uiuc.edu
University of Illinois 40:06:39 N. 88:13:41 W.
Urbana, IL 61801 USA

Teri

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May 2, 1991, 6:18:06 PM5/2/91
to
in a previous article j...@hammer.UUCP (jennifer thompson) writes:

>I found this article truly offensive. I actually started to feel sick
>reading it. I understand that some people like to keep snakes as pets,
>and that snakes must eat live food, but must we discuss it here, where
>a lot of the people care about and have mice, rats and rabbits as pets?
>Also, I think that a lot of the graphic details that were given here re:
>nuking animals, freezing them, etc. were unecessary to get the point
>across. Sounds like the poster wanted to get a rise out of some of us.
>Well, it worked.

Jennifer,
If you started to feel sick, why did you continue to read this article?
I have a number of reptiles as pets, one of them a mouse-eating boa! I also
have two mice, not food for him. I have used them for breeding mice for the
boa, but they are pets, yet i have no qualms about feeding their "kids" to the
snake. That is why I have them. Once he is bigger he will eat bunnies, etc.
But that is another story.
The questions about freezing, etc. were valid questions. They, I am sure,
were not designed to "get a rise" out of you. I found them humorous, and
thought provoking, in their own way.
Your comment about creating a new news group is valid, but I do not know
who to contact. Maybe you, and your weak stomach, can find out and do some-
thing about it. Untill then, don't read things when you find them offensive.
And please don't complain when us "reptile-people" have questions about feeding
our pets.

Plus, have you ever read a pet food label.......Those poor cute cows......
(who may have been killed less humanely than those frozen mice!!)

Teri (who until she gets her own account uses her boyfriend's)
(and who loves her rodents as much as she loves her reptiles, but who
also knows what a FOOD CHAIN is)

Tony Buckland

unread,
May 3, 1991, 1:53:49 PM5/3/91
to
In article <91122.18...@psuvm.psu.edu> SM...@psuvm.psu.edu (Teri) writes:
>If you started to feel sick, why did you continue to read this article?

There seem to be at least three big schools of thought, represented
by readers who: (1) realize they don't like reading something, and
stop reading it, usually without complaining to anyone else; (2)
realize they don't like reading something, and then finish reading
it in a rising storm of indignation so that they can complain at
large; or (3) hear that someone has dared to write something they
wouldn't like reading, and take care not read it themselves, but
join in a general clamor to prevent the offending author from
ever again publishing anything they wouldn't like to read.

S. Mudgett aka little gator

unread,
May 2, 1991, 3:52:40 AM5/2/91
to
In article <1991Apr27....@thelema.uucp> STe...@thelema.uucp
(STella) writes:
>
> Mara, I am a cat people, but if you think I'm sweet and innocent, try
> again. I find a mouse in my space, I'll pick it up by its tail, drop
> it into a jar, assemble the cats in the bathroom (this requires only
> holding the jar under their noses till they join the parade), and pour
> the mouse into the bathtub. They play "lions and christians", and
> I've never had much of a mouse problem.

why bother? the cats can catch a live mouse far faster than i can, so i just
let them. when it's dead, i may steal it and throw it out, but
that's about it.

>
> STe...@xanadu.com 1016 E. El Camino Real, #302, Sunnyvale, CA 94087
> (thelema.uucp seems to work for some, thelema.com has no business working)

--
-- little gator aka S. Mudgett email: s...@harvee.uucp
-- friend of a gator is a friend of mine

Mara Ulis

unread,
May 3, 1991, 12:52:58 PM5/3/91
to
>
WHOA STELLA AND DEBBIE!!!!!

>_i_ did NOT say it was disgusting. PLEASE be careful who you're
>attrributing what to. MARA said it was disgusting. _i_ responded to her
>article, basically saying she should get in touch with the real world. i
>do NOT appreciated being belittled for saying her remarks are naive.

I also don't appreciate being considered naive because I found a sales
pitch for dead animals disgusting in a group that is supposedly to
discuss pets.

>>>another reason to vote YES for creating rec.pets.cats. get the sweet
>>>inocent cat people away from the nasty mouse-killer snake people. ;-)
>>>geez.... cats never eat mice!!! they do? well, ok, but not FROZEN ones.
>>>:-)

By the way, I care about all animals including mice and rats and snakes
and I realize some animals are carnivores which means they eat other
animals. That doesn't change the feelings I had when I saw the
pages of different assortments of dead animals I could purchase at a
variety of discounted rates. This just doesn't seem like the
appropriate place for such an article. How about alt.forsale?

>THIS was my response to mara. it was intended to be drippingly sarcastic.

Debbie, G-d forbid you might have to take what you dish out!


>
>>Mara, I am a cat people, but if you think I'm sweet and innocent, try
>>again.

Stella, believe me I would never accuse YOU of such a thing (especially
after reading your response)!
>
I wonder where each of you would draw the line on disgusting. Would it
be a boxful of frozen cats, dogs, people? We all have a right to our
opinions. I respect yours and would expect the same from others with-
out being flamed!

Mara


--

"They cannot speak. We can. Those who are /\ /\
articulate must be the voices of those who 0 0
are voiceless." =^=

Richard Morgan 0

Debbie Forest

unread,
May 6, 1991, 11:30:05 AM5/6/91
to
In article <1991May3.1...@unislc.uucp> m...@unislc.UUCP (Mara Ulis,B2E10,5345) writes:
>>MARA said it was disgusting. _i_ responded to her
>>article, [...]

>>do NOT appreciated being belittled for saying her remarks are naive.
>
>I also don't appreciate being considered naive because I found a sales
>pitch for dead animals disgusting in a group that is supposedly to
>discuss pets.

i'm sorry mara. i do think it's naive. that's not such a terrible insult
really, and certainly nothing compared to what stella said about your
remarks (attributed incorrectly to me.)
meat is dead animals. snakes eat dead animals. so do cats. chances are
very high that you do too. there certainly have been lots of articles in
here discussing cat food, i don't see that discussing snake food is much
different. and i don't think that cute little mousies (which some people
have for pets) are much different that cute little chickies, lambies,
fishies or cowies that they make the cat food out of.
i also don't happen to see that eating dead cows is much different than
eating dogs or cats or people - which is why i'm a vegetarian. but my dogs
are not vegetarian. and when they eat their dog food or chew on a rawhide
i don't delude myself about the source of those food items. they came from
cute little lambies and cowies.
i think it's entirely appropriate to discuss pet food in a newsgroup for
pets. if an animal some people consider pets is considered food for someone
else's pets, that's too bad. but as long as people are fairly tasteful
about it, and avoid all kinds of graphic descriptions imho it's ok.

>animals. That doesn't change the feelings I had when I saw the
>pages of different assortments of dead animals I could purchase at a
>variety of discounted rates. This just doesn't seem like the
>appropriate place for such an article. How about alt.forsale?

i think rec.pets is exactly the right place to discuss pet food.

>I wonder where each of you would draw the line on disgusting. Would it
>be a boxful of frozen cats, dogs, people? We all have a right to our
>opinions. I respect yours and would expect the same from others with-
>out being flamed!

actually it so happens that i find killing animals for food to be
disgusting. but i am realistic enough to agree that people do it, and so
do many other animals. if someone is going to keep a carnivorous pet, they
have to accept that particular disgusting facet. in a newsgroup for
carnivorous pets, that talk is appropriate.

Frank MALONEY

unread,
May 3, 1991, 1:51:15 PM5/3/91
to
In article <5...@hammer.UUCP> j...@hammer.UUCP (Jennifer Thompson) writes:
[deletions]

>
>Maybe there should be a separate newsgroup for reptile owners. That way
>they can feel free to discuss different techniques of feeding little
>mice to their snakes, how much a box of 20 frozen bunnies is going for,
>etc. without upsetting other people who have rodents as pets.
>
I completely sympathize with. Nature is terribly offensive
and gross. Why can't everyone play nice and the world would
a better place?

Sorry, but the idea of apartheid for snake-fanciers is vastly
more offensive to me than the posting you're objecting to. I
like guppies and goldfish, too, but when arawana owners get
together to talk about feeding their babies my babies I roll
with the punches and mind my own business.

I suggest that you like me just not read the snake postings.
I don't because I don't fancy them as pets (not because of
any basic antipathy towards them).

It's pretty easy to avoid reality as I'm sure you know.

--
Frank Richard Aloysius Jude Maloney
"This is the shadow of the vast madrone."
Yvor Winters
For a good time see uunet!microsoft!frankm

Jennifer Thompson

unread,
May 8, 1991, 2:50:35 PM5/8/91
to
In article <72...@microsoft.UUCP> fra...@microsoft.UUCP (Vortex Bibliognost) writes:
>
>It's pretty easy to avoid reality as I'm sure you know.
>
>--
>Frank Richard Aloysius Jude Maloney
> "This is the shadow of the vast madrone."
> Yvor Winters

Thanks a lot for the flame, Frank, but you're about a week late. I have
already apologized to the net for inaccurately pointing my finger at the
snake owners. If you would have paid attention to my posting, you would
have known that it is not the ordinary discussions about feeding snakes
that pissed me off. It was the ONE particular article that had a lot of
unecessary cruel remarks that got to me. I do not avoid reality, and
I'm sick of being flamed for sharing my opinion, which I am perfectly
entitled to do. Like I said, I have already apologized, and do not
appreciate this whole stupid thing being brought up again. So, if you
want to flame someone about the article they posted, why don't you keep
up to date with your news reading, and flame while the discussion is
still active?

Frank MALONEY

unread,
May 13, 1991, 1:05:42 AM5/13/91
to
In article <5...@hammer.UUCP> j...@hammer.UUCP (Jennifer Thompson) writes:
>
[deletion]

>Thanks a lot for the flame, Frank, but you're about a week late. I have
>already apologized to the net for inaccurately pointing my finger at the
>snake owners. If you would have paid attention to my posting, you would
>have known that it is not the ordinary discussions about feeding snakes
>that pissed me off. It was the ONE particular article that had a lot of
>unecessary cruel remarks that got to me. I do not avoid reality, and
>I'm sick of being flamed for sharing my opinion, which I am perfectly
>entitled to do. Like I said, I have already apologized, and do not
>appreciate this whole stupid thing being brought up again. So, if you
>want to flame someone about the article they posted, why don't you keep
>up to date with your news reading, and flame while the discussion is
>still active?
>

You're perfectly welcome, Jennifer. Anytime you make an
asshole out of yourself, I'll be happy to point it out to
you and I'm only can hope I can expect the same friendly
service from you when I do likewise.

As for the timing, you once again speak out your cloud of
unknowing. Microsoft's newsmachine has been horribly slow of
late. Incoming articles 5-10 days late, outgoing articles
sitting in the spooler another 5-10 days. You're lucky the
whole nasty business didn't reemerge in July! Just this
weekend (I am at home right now and thus marvelously mellow)
suddenly the whole feed went into turbo drive and my postings
were being posted by the spooler within an hour of my
writing them. This is real luxury.

But getting back to your classically ill-considered posting
and the reaction thereunto. Get a clue, as the kids down the
hall at work love to say. Getting dumped on by strangers in
public in one of the special joys of usenet. Sometimes you
don't even deserve. Not in this case, of course, but
sometimes.

And, yes, I knew exactly whom and what you thought you were
responding to. You were wrong, that's all. It happens. To me
on a daily basis. I have opinions, too, Jennifer, and like
you I have to share them, right or wrong. I doubt that
either of us will change.

ObPets: We have a new cat in our menage. He hid in the
basement for four weeks before he calmed down. I'll post
them story later as it may be instructive on how not to
introduce a new cat to a household. At one point we only
knew that he was still around because our renter's pizza
disappeared overnight. He suddenly emerged last weekend. We
had a delightful nap on the big old daveno this afternoon to
recover from the rigors of Mother's Day. He's black, fluffy,
with huge yellow eyes, and an even larger need to be loved,
as it turns out.


--
Frank Richard Aloysius Jude Maloney
"This is the shadow of the vast madrone."
Yvor Winters

STella

unread,
May 14, 1991, 4:27:01 PM5/14/91
to
In article <5...@hammer.UUCP> j...@hammer.UUCP (Jennifer Thompson) writes:
>In article <72...@microsoft.UUCP> fra...@microsoft.UUCP (Vortex Bibliognost) writes:
>>It's pretty easy to avoid reality as I'm sure you know.

Thanks, FRAJM!

>Thanks a lot for the flame, Frank, but you're about a week late. I have

It's never too late, really. And I don't think, somehow, that he was
flaming you just for your cluenessness re snakes. You don't like a
topic, don't READ it. You don't like my posts, putting me in your
kill file would keep you from ever having to see one again.

> It was the ONE particular article that had a lot of
>unecessary cruel remarks that got to me.

Excuse me. As long as I am writing my posts, and not hiring YOU as a
ghostwriter, _I_ get to decide how cruel it is necessary to be. Not
you, dearie.

> I do not avoid reality, and
>I'm sick of being flamed for sharing my opinion, which I am perfectly
>entitled to do.

Oh, that IS good, in context.... If you tell me (as you have, in
essence) that I am disgusting and unnecessarily cruel, that is the
sharing of an opinion. If I suggest that you might be happier in
another newsgroup, in which those who consider rats and mice vermin do
NOT post, that is a flame, right? Well, I think there are folks who
could tell you that I flame rather more effectively than that, when
I'm actually flaming (In fact, I might be taking a class later this
summer on "verbal vivisection". When a friend, reading something I
had laying around the house, expressed skepticism about the existence
of verbal SM, I was able to demonstrate the technique with only the
delay necessary to set him up for the lash. But my fans know I'll
discuss that in asb, if I post about it at all.)

Obpets: In a week or so, we'll be pulling the stitches from our
most-recently-spayed ex-queen. I know about the necessary technique,
but the cat in question is NOT accustomed to being laid on her back
and fiddled with. We're flipping her over and petting her belly now
and then, tugging (with a clean glove, or washed hands) on her sutures
just a bit, and otherwise getting her used to the idea before it's
time to do it for real. And I learned some cats back that if you're
pulling the stitches on a panicky cat, it's a good idea to put a wad
of toilet paper over her crotch so you don't get a geyser of catpiss
up your nose. But if anyone has found a good way of doing this with
minimum distress to the cat, I would like it. I have the basic
technique, but need refinements that would make it as easy for the cat
as it is for me -- something that would distract the cat while I do it
would be great (and yes, I've already thought of one that would work,
but I'm not trying to upset ALL the mouse-folks. If I upset Jennifer,
I figure that's what she's looking for, and I got no problem with her
having a gross-out orgasm if she chooses.)

And before you bother flaming, the place where I have the cats done
offered to teach me how to pull stitches, had I not already been
confident of my ability. It's NOT the case that I won't bother
transporting cats to the vet, but that my vet knows I'm competent to
recognize the signs of infection, and that there's no need to clutter
his day or mine unless there's a problem. (And since Rhiannon was
back up on the curtain-rod less than a week after surgery, I know
there is no problem. She's back to her normal obnoxious self.)

And so am I.

Jennifer, putting /STella@thelema/ in your kill file will keep you
from ever seeing one of my posts again. If you don't like the real
world, build one you like better. Else, get OVER it, girl!

STe...@xanadu.com 1016 E. El Camino Real, #302, Sunnyvale, CA 94087

Gary J. Sullivan

unread,
May 23, 1991, 4:29:57 AM5/23/91
to
> STe...@thelema.uucp (STella) writes:
>
>time to do it for real. And I learned some cats back that if you're
>pulling the stitches on a panicky cat, it's a good idea to put a wad
>of toilet paper over her crotch so you don't get a geyser of catpiss
>up your nose. But if anyone has found a good way of doing this with
>minimum distress to the cat, I would like it. I have the basic

A good way of getting a cat to piss up your nose? Gee STella, you're
kinda kinky! Are you busy this weekend?

STella

unread,
May 23, 1991, 1:41:36 PM5/23/91
to
In article <28...@lee.SEAS.UCLA.EDU> sull...@edison.seas.ucla.edu (Gary J. Sullivan) writes:

>> STe...@thelema.uucp (STella) writes:
>>pulling the stitches on a panicky cat, it's a good idea to put a wad
>>of toilet paper over her crotch so you don't get a geyser of catpiss
>>up your nose. But if anyone has found a good way of doing this with
>>minimum distress to the cat, I would like it. I have the basic
>
> A good way of getting a cat to piss up your nose? Gee STella, you're
> kinda kinky! Are you busy this weekend?

Sorry, yeah. But I'll be in LA for a day in July....

Anyway, to answer my own question, what I ended up doing was to, for
several days before stitch-pulling time, pin the cat on her back, and
rub my fingers on either side of her incision, tug just a little on
the thread, and give her a goodie. By the time it was time to do it
for real, she wasn't panicky at being flopped on her back and handled,
and when I had a third pair of hands I trusted visiting, we
immobilized, clipped, pulled and fussed, with no complaint from
Rhiannon. (No geyser, either.)

On another thread, rough cleaning, I'm open to suggestions. Kit'n
Hook, who was my youngest feline till we got Rhiannon, seems to think
that expressing his affections to people is best done by squicking
them -- he comes over for affection, and if I don't put down my book
fast enough or pet him intensely enough, he starts licking, and
sucking, and licking, and licking, and while, in certain contexts (see
alt.sex.bondage for more info) I quite enjoy being tickled,
stimulated, and otherwise driven crazy) I simply cannot DEAL with
being abraded by a cat. After about two minutes, that tongue gets
excruciating, in a way that even this fan of excruciation cannot
easily enjoy.

Partly it's my own damn fault. At first, when he started squicking, I
would attempt to distract him by fussing him -- positive
reinforcement, however, tends to increase the frequency of the
reinforced behavior. Sigh. I don't want to push him away and holler
at him, because he's such a TIMID cat, but I can't always see him
coming in time to distract him, or pull the blanket up over my skin
(if I cover everything but my eyes/nose/hand, and attempt to read,
he'll either abrade the back of my hand or stick his cute little face
between me and the book and attempt to remove all the skin from my
nose.

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