Siamese vs. Burmese vs. Tonkinese
Roger Gonzalez
in June. At first, I was looking at Siamese, because all of my cats
hitherto have been at least half Siamese, and I like their personality
(except for the fascination with wanton destruction.) However, it
appears that the Siamese cats of old are very difficult to find, and the
cats being bred for these days are long, thin, tubular, pointy-faced
things. They do have the personality I like, but boy, do they look
wierd.
So, I'm now mainly interested in Burmese and Tonkinese. I've heard that
both of them have the fun, mischievous spirits of the Siamese, except
that they aren't as standoffish. In my cat book, it describes the Tonk
as having the best traits of Burmese and Siamese. (Plus they look more
like I remember the old apple-head Siamese.) Can anyone tell me what I
can expect to pay for a Tonk kitten? I'm looking at $250 for a Siamese,
and $400 for a Burmese. These prices are pretty steep for me, but I
think its worth it for a cat with purrsonality. Incidently, Ocicats are
around $350, but I don't know anything about them except that they look
gorgeous. I'm mainly in this for a lively, hyperintelligent cat with
lots of personality, and looks aren't too important. Any suggestions?
Thanks,
Roger
--
UUCP: ..!uunet!unhd!rg | USPS: Marine Systems Engineering Laboratory
BITNET: r_gonzalez at unhh | University of New Hampshire
PHONE: (603) 862-4600 | Marine Programs Building
FAX: (603) 862-4399 | Durham, NH 03824-3525
Morgan Hall;685-2249;61-156;;shazam
>I am looking for a feline friend to share the apartment I'm moving into
>in June. At first, I was looking at Siamese, because all of my cats
>hitherto have been at least half Siamese, and I like their personality
>(except for the fascination with wanton destruction.) However, it
>appears that the Siamese cats of old are very difficult to find, and the
>cats being bred for these days are long, thin, tubular, pointy-faced
>things. They do have the personality I like, but boy, do they look
>wierd.
>
>So, I'm now mainly interested in Burmese and Tonkinese. I've heard that
>both of them have the fun, mischievous spirits of the Siamese, except
>that they aren't as standoffish. In my cat book, it describes the Tonk
>as having the best traits of Burmese and Siamese. (Plus they look more
>like I remember the old apple-head Siamese.) Can anyone tell me what I
>can expect to pay for a Tonk kitten? I'm looking at $250 for a Siamese,
>and $400 for a Burmese. These prices are pretty steep for me, but I
>think its worth it for a cat with purrsonality. Incidently, Ocicats are
>around $350, but I don't know anything about them except that they look
>gorgeous. I'm mainly in this for a lively, hyperintelligent cat with
>lots of personality, and looks aren't too important. Any suggestions?
>
>Thanks,
>Roger
Roger -- I'm posting this rather than repying vi e-mail because it may
be of general interest.
A group of breeders has recently formed a "Traditional Siameese
Breeders Association" to propigate the old-style "apple-head"
Siameese. If you'd like, I could try to get you a contact.
If you want "a lively, hyperintelligent cat with lots of personality"
you might want to consider the Egyptian Mau or an Abyssinian also
(Yep, they're the ones I raise, and the reason I raise them). If
lively is your criteria, the Maus make Abys look as sluggish as Persians.
Abys are no slouches when it comes to activity -- they tend to be the
instigators. When I investigate a suspicious crash, there is usually
one or two Maus in the middle of the mess with an Aby off to one side
looking innocent. By observing them without their knowledge, it looks
like the Aby is the ringleader -- she comes up with the devilment,
starts the process, and at the sound of the crash, absents herself
from the scene of the crime. The Maus aren't deterred by the crash,
and are left in the middle of the evidence.
Burmeese are being pushed to extremes by breeders. If you like the
shape of the cat, fine. If it bothers you (it does me) you might
prefer the Tonks. They are basically a less extreme Burm with a
mixture of American Shorthair (and possible Exotic Shorthair blood).
If you want something "different" ( the neighbors might ask "Is that
thing really a cat?") you might look into the rex cats -- either the
Cornish Rex (think of a long-legged spider) or the Devon Rex (ET phone
home...). The cornish is almost hyperactive, both are very affectionate
and intellegent and the feel of their fur is incredible. The rex coat
doesn't have the longer "guard hairs" of normal fur. The undercoat of
extremely fine hair rolls up into little waves and is deliciously soft.
Both are natural mutations that have been propigated by breeders, both
are rather rare.
Occicats are a hybrid breed -- the result of crossing Abys and old-style
Siameese. The breeder was trying to get a Aby-pointed siameese and got
some spotted cats in the second generation. Occicats are still legally
outcrossed to Abys, but the stud books are due to be closed soon. Occicats
are valued for their spots, but a large porportion of the offspring are
non-spotted (AOV or any other variety in CFA parlance). The AOV kittens
are often available at a very reasonable price.
If you want a pedigreed cat, I'd suggest going to several shows. You can
check out the breeds and the breeders under some pressure. Discount about
90% of the gossip, but note who does the gossiping -- I've noticed that
these are the people who bear watching out for.
Please, also, decide if you REALLY want a pedigreed cat. Local Humane
Societies and animal shelters are full of cats and kittens that need a
home -- they are doomed if not adopted. The cost is much less, and
most back-alley bred kittens are descended from long lines of survivors.
Also, you could be saving a life.
Feel free to write or call if you need more specific advice.
E-mail mor...@orca.WV.TEK.COM
Morgan Hall
Tariqat Cattery
Abbysinians and Egyptian Maus
5353 S.W. Kruse Rd.
Wilsonville, OR 97070
(503) 682-2373
Dick Dunn
> I am looking for a feline friend to share the apartment I'm moving into
. . .
> So, I'm now mainly interested in Burmese and Tonkinese. I've heard that
> both of them have the fun, mischievous spirits of the Siamese, except
Burmese aren't generally standoffish, but they can lead a lump-like
existence if they feel like it. They've got very short coats, so they're
good at heat-sensing and settling in to warm spots for extended periods.
If you're looking for active/mischievous/playful, consider Abyssinian or
Ocicat. Abys do everything to the max...they're always on the go unless
they're sound asleep. Ocis are similarly active. In fact, the Ocicat is
primarily a Siamese/Abyssinian cross. Ocis tend to be larger (because of
the recent cross-breeding).
> $400 for a Burmese...
That seems awfully high, unless you're looking for top show quality, which
it doesn't sound like you are.
> ...Incidently, Ocicats are
> around $350,...
That's also way too high. In particular, you ought to be able to get an
un-spotted Oci (which is normal for Oci x Aby [still allowed] and common in
second generation as well) for a lot less.
Sounds like you should check around more to get a better idea of prices.
Visit various breeders.
--
Dick Dunn r...@ico.isc.com uucp: {ncar,nbires}!ico!rcd (303)449-2870
...CAUTION: I get mean when the capsaicin level in my blood gets low.
Roger Gonzalez
Can you recommend any Mau breeders in the northeast? They are beautiful
animals, but a few looks through the ads in Cat Fancy didn't list anyone
in new england. Nor were there apple-head siamese breeders around here.
I've just never been too fond of people shipping cats by air mail. Not
only do you then not get to meet the kitten's parents, but I have
reservations about anyone who treat their fur-persons like flat-out
merchandise.
-Roger
Orca Starbuck
>in June. At first, I was looking at Siamese, because all of my cats
>hitherto have been at least half Siamese, and I like their personality
>(except for the fascination with wanton destruction.) However, it
>appears that the Siamese cats of old are very difficult to find, and the
>cats being bred for these days are long, thin, tubular, pointy-faced
>things. They do have the personality I like, but boy, do they look
>wierd.
I've recently been looking for a pet "Siamese" for a friend who likes
the "old style Siamese". I've talked to lots of Siamese, Tonkinese,
and Aby people in the area recently, and I believe the Tonkinese is
just what you are looking for.
First of all, seems that Siamese/Tonkinese are quite different
(personality wise) from Abys/Ocicats. Both types are very active and
very intelligent. But the distinguishing feature of the Siamese
personality seems to be how demanding the cats are of attention and
affection, and how emotionally dependent they are on their owners.
For example, I was at a cat show this weekend benched next to a
Siamese/Oriental Shorthair breeder, and her lovely Ebony OSH male
INSISTED on spending a large part of the show literally wrapped around
her neck purring, rubbing his head against hers, licking her ear,
meowing into her ear with his Siamese voice, etc.
In short, if you love Siamese for their personality, Siamese (or
a related breed) is what you've got to get.
Now what is it with these Tonkinese? Tonks are a Siamese/Burmese
cross, and the breeders have tried to keep the breed right in the
middle in every way -- except that they seem to prefer a Siamese to a
Burmese personality. So basically you are getting an old-style
Siamese, except for the colors. The show Tonkinese are "mink" colors,
which are pointed like the Siamese but with slightly darker body
color, and aqua colored eyes (instead of blue). But "mink" does not
breed true. A "mink" cat must have 1 Siamese and 1 Burmese color
gene, so when two Tonks are bred, the kittens can have Siamese,
Burmese, or Tonkinese colors. The Siamese-color Tonkinese is pretty
much identical to an old-style Siamese.
>Can anyone tell me what I
>can expect to pay for a Tonk kitten? I'm looking at $250 for a Siamese,
>and $400 for a Burmese. These prices are pretty steep for me, but I
>think its worth it for a cat with purrsonality.
Pet Tonks seem always to be $350 (sometimes $300) -- and I've talked
to most every breeder in this area. I also talked to some of the
"Traditional Siamese" people (and met some at the cat show). Their
cats run $450 - $500. Why? Because they don't sell any for show.
(They also didn't impress me favorably as breeders. I wouldn't
recommend them to you.)
If you're interested in Tonks, I recommend you call Eileen Fusci at
(603)465-7167. She is in New Hampshire, she's active in the breed
association (so she'd be happy to recommend another breeder if that's
necessary), and the last time I talked to her she had some seal points
and some blue points.
Good luck!
-- Orca
Orca Starbuck
>I've just never been too fond of people shipping cats by air mail. Not
>only do you then not get to meet the kitten's parents, but I have
>reservations about anyone who treat their fur-persons like flat-out
>merchandise.
Although it's nice to meet the breeder and the kitten's parents, just
because the cat gets shipped to you doesn't mean there's anything
wrong with the breeder's attitude! Both my cats were shipped to me,
and both breeders are extremely attached to their cats (to the point
of keeping lots of them rather than selling them to people they have
the slightest reservations about). They call me to see how the cats
are doing, ask for pictures, silly cat stories, etc etc.
By the way, the Tonk breeder I mentioned in my previous posting
(Eileen Fusci) won't even think about selling you a kitten until
you've visited her at her cattery. She likes to see first hand how
you interact with the cats, for example. You'd like her. :-)
-- Orca
Jean Marie Diaz
From: rg@uunet!unhd (Roger Gonzalez )
Date: 30 Apr 90 13:36:24 GMT
Can you recommend any Mau breeders in the northeast?
Elmer and Tobe Goldman in Framingham MA have an silver Egyptian Mau
female that took Best Cat in CFF last year. Don't know how much
breeding they do, but you might want to see if you can get in touch with
them. (If Directory Assistance can't help, email me and I'll send you
their address and phone number. I don't have it handy....)
Something I've noticed is that most of the breeders I'm familiar with
advertise in Cats Magazine, and not in Cat Fancy (if, of course, they
advertise at all). I'm not sure why, but you might check there as well.
(I also like the fact that Cats Magazine sorts cattery ads by zip code,
so it's easy to locate folks in your area.)
AMBAR
Morgan Hall;685-2249;61-156;;shazam
> Can you recommend any Mau breeders in the northeast?
For anyone who's interested in cats, breeders, or the cat fancy in general,
most associations put out a yearbook -- chock full of pictures, information,
breeder's ads and the like. Many breeders who won't advertise elswhere
will list their cattery in the yearbook (and be more receptive to the
person who found them there).
I'm most familiar with the CFA yearbook -- the last issue had a very
detailed writeup on the genetics of the Egyptian Mau. I haven't gone
through this year's issue yet. Cost? About $25 -- it's a coffee-table
size, full color book, and a great reference if you want to show someone
what a particular breed or color of cat looks like.
To get a copy you order from the CFA national office --
Cat Fanciers Association
1309 Allaire Ave.
Ocean, NJ 07712
(201) 531-2390
I'm not sure whether they have copies from previous years or not.
Morgan Hall
Tariqat Cattery Abyssinians & Egyptian Maus
se...@techsup.uucp
another possibility which no one has mentioned thus far in
your quest for a cat is a plush-coated balinese.
to refresh memories, the balinese started out as a long haired siamese
and was refined into a separate breed. the ideal balinese has a
long, silky coat (quite unlike that of the persian), and oriental
body type, although it is not as severe as that which is currently in
vogue for the siamese. (this is probably due to the fact that the cats were
being bred for coat rather than body type back when the move towards
the extreme body type in siamese started gaining momentum. for all
i know, the body type may be aiming toward the siamese extreme now).
in any case, the long-hair gene doesn't appear in all kittens. balinese
cats who do not have it have what is called a "plush" coat, which is
like a siamese coat only much softer and silkier. these kittens cannot
be shown as balinese (or so i understand, i'm not a breeder) and generally
sell for very reasonable prices (in the neighborhood of $100 or so, from
what i've seen in the area).
a friend of mine has a chocolate point plush balinese female who is
one of the most enchanting cats i have ever met. she possesses all
of the curiosity, troublemaking capacity, and self-possession of the
siamese, with a sweetness of disposition and voice which makes it difficult
to scold her even when she is at her worst. (believe me, she talks --
a lot!) the other balinese cats, both ideal and plush coated, i have
met are very similar in personality.
if you are looking for an independent, playful, oriental type cat
of less extreme body type, you might want to look at the balinese.
valerie see
....texbell!techsup!qat!valsee
....se...@techsup.lonestar.org
Dick Dunn
> r...@unhd.unh.edu.UUCP (Roger Gonzalez ) writes:
> >I've just never been too fond of people shipping cats by air mail. Not
> >only do you then not get to meet the kitten's parents, but I have
> >reservations about anyone who treat their fur-persons like flat-out
> >merchandise.
Roger's concerns are valid, but there are ways to meet them. You find, in
the world of "show cats" that reputations go a long way, and once you're
really established, you get requests from all over the place, much farther
than it's possible for either party to travel for a face-to-face encounter.
(We sent a cat to Japan last year. 6000 miles would be a long trip for a
quick visit!) Keep in mind that responsible breeders have similar concerns
to purchasers...we want to know that the cat is going to a good home with
people who know about cats, and who will deal with us fairly in terms of
agreements about showing, breeding (or not), neuter/spay, etc.
> Although it's nice to meet the breeder and the kitten's parents, just
> because the cat gets shipped to you doesn't mean there's anything
> wrong with the breeder's attitude!...
The most common ways to resolve this gigantic "who are you, anyway?" are
(a) mutual acquaintances of breeder and new owner, and (b) cat shows as an
"excuse" to get out and visit people in other areas.
Also, if you're purchasing a cat this way, you probably care a lot about
what the cat looks like and how it behaves, so you'll have been talking on
the phone to the breeder, and the breeder will probably have sent pictures
and descriptions, etc. If you find a breeder who acts like a mail-order
house, look elsewhere.
Shipping cats by air *isn't* entirely trivial, and there *is* a lot of care
taken in the shipping process, once you've found airlines that do it right.
It less resembles "airmail" than sending an "unaccompanied minor" on a
flight. There are lots of restrictions relating to weather (can't ship if
it's too hot or too cold), flight connections (can't have long layovers if
it's not a nonstop flight), picking up the cat (must have arrangements in
advance to be sure cat gets picked up soon after arrival), carrier in which
the cat is shipped, etc., etc. Plus, it's not cheap. I doubt that anyone
(breeder or purchaser) really likes doing it this way, but sometimes it's
the only practical thing to do.
--
Dick Dunn r...@ico.isc.com uucp: {ncar,nbires}!ico!rcd (303)449-2870
...Lately it occurs to me what a long, strange trip it's been.
John Humphrys
on American Eskimo (Spitz). I read a summary of the dog in
a reference book and it seems that it would be a good family dog
that would be comfortable living outdoors.
I would like to know how easily they train and whether the weather
in the Boston area is too mild for such a rugged dog. Any comments
on disposition would also be appreciated.
e
Kelvin Hui
Alby is hyperactive, Yoby a little timid. When the two dogs play, Alby always
end up on the top. She is definitely the alpha dog coz' she will bark
Yoby away from her food and water.
Well just to illustrate there're big difference in personality even for
the same litter so you have to spend some time with the puppy in order to
decide if that's what you want. Also the appearance is very much
different. Though they looked almost the same as puppy, Alby grew into
a longer and slender dog, with much coarse hair while Yoby retain the
softer hair.
Both dogs like to be with people (definitely not good as watch dogs),
especially children. Alby will "demand" attention from every member of
the family when we come home after a day, sort of like a greeting. If
we don't pat her she will be more restless and look disappointed. After
the greeting she will continue with what she is doing.
Alby is very very intelligent and affectionate, but also can be very stubborn.
She has a mind of her own and requires extra effort to train her. But if she
likes what we try to train her to do she'll pick up the command in no time.
She loves to run around (like a racing dog) our backyard many times a day. She
seldom barks.
Hope that will help and good luck on your new puppy.
Kelvin
_______________________________________________________________________
Kelvin Y. Hui |
kh...@brahms.amd.com | I'm doing nothing, I'm doing research.
_____________________________|_________________________________________
_______________________________________________________________________
Kelvin Y. Hui |
kh...@brahms.amd.com | I'm doing nothing, I'm doing research.
_____________________________|_________________________________________
Michael Meissner
My wife and I have had a spitz for 6 1/2 years. We lived in
Massachusetts (Worcester, and Framingham), moved to North Carolina
(Raleigh), and now are back in MA (Ayer). Koona had no problem in Ma
(at least that we noticed), and did survive the NC summers better than
the tri-colored collie we also had at the time. While she does prefer
snow, she will spend lots of time outside in the summer time -- some
days she wants to come in immediately, some days she is out their for
hours before she barks to come in.
Like most small dog breeds, I believe spitz's are prone to be
hyperactive. Originally, Koona was friendly with strangers, but after
we lived in Worcester, she became very protective of non-family
members, particularly males, and especially if I'm not home. Our
neighbor positively hated dogs, and we figure he must of done
something to Koona.
In terms of being a family dog, we have a 2 1/2 year old daughter, and
the dog is gentle with her, and Gwen (the daughter) is just starting
to respond in kind. My wife who had always had big dogs, says that
Koona is just the right size for being a lap dog.
Be sure and have a good vacuum cleaner -- when it's shedding seasion,
you will need it! Due to the heat, it was quite worse in NC, where
shedding seasion seemed to be most of the year. Also, we discovered
in NC, that pine sap is a mess to get out of the dog's coat (Koona
would rub up against the pine trees).
In terms of trainability, we failed (hopefully we will do better with
our daughter). Koona has us well trained.
--
Michael Meissner email: meis...@osf.org phone: 617-621-8861
Open Software Foundation, 11 Cambridge Center, Cambridge, MA
Do apple growers tell their kids money doesn't grow on bushes?
Michael Meissner
has: 1) she is a shredder, she especially loves tissue paper, but
will settle for newspapers, etc; 2) she is also somewhat of a digger.
Julia Wagner
>Does anyone out there in dog land have some information
>...it seems that it would be a good family dog
>that would be comfortable living outdoors.
NOT ALONE!! Read on, please...
>I would like to know how easily they train and whether the weather
>in the Boston area is too mild for such a rugged dog. Any comments
>on disposition would also be appreciated.
I have an 'Eskie' and he's great!!!! I also know several of these dogs well
and I feel I know the basic personality. I would suggest getting one to anyone.
Here are some things to note about the breed:
- they are VERY emotional - meaning that they really show their
feelings more than any dog I've seen. For instance, they are
very loving and affectionate, and will suck up to any one of the
people they like for love and cuddling. If you raise your voice
at them they roll on their back and are very apologetic. If,
during play, they hurt you with teeth or claws enough to make
you say "Ouch!" you need to be prepared for huge apologetic,
eyes and TONS of licks.
- this previous note suggests extreme loyalty and attachment for
the family members of the dog. As a result of this, they are
very protective of their loved ones, themselves and their
territory. I have 2 male dogs ( the Eskie and a Sheltie ).
The Eskie carries "The Guide to the Macho Dog" in his back
pocket. The Sheltie could care less and is more interested in
play. When we go to play frisbie, the Sheltie plays and the
Eskie (Lou) polices the area for at least 15 minutes.
- They bark alot when someone comes to the door. You will always
have your own personal alarm protection system. However, the
dogs I know are not yappers.
- They are extremely smart and are VERY easy to teach tricks. They
seem to understand English words better than other dogs I know
instead of picking up on physical actions and voice tone. I think
they are used as circus dogs for that reason.
Here are some things you must know so you don't make a mistake with them:
- Since they have sensitive personalities, they need attention and
love and should not be left without companionship. They like the
cold, but if you are planning to keep the dog outdoors alone, don't
get one. They need to be WITH you. They like to be alone to explore
though and can be let out in the cold for however long they want (Ours
lets us know when he wants to come in). I would NOT suggest an
isolated life in the back yard for any dog, but THESE dogs will
become nasty if left too much alone in an abusive manner. They are
not loners and will return your negligence with paranoia and
aggression. No dog in fact will react to loneliness in a pleasing
manner. Would you like to sit in the back yard all day alone?
Society will label you a social misfit and that is exactly what
kind of dog you will raise.
- They are highly affected by bad events that happen to them and have
excellent memories. My dog (Lou), for example, goes to the vet and
yelps when he sees the needle and lets out a poop when he gets the
shot. It's pretty funny - I know he's not being hurt, because my
Sheltie just sits there. He's just remembered the shot from another
time and gets scared.
- They protect their area greatly, but they are wimps when it comes
right down to it. Therefore, when they feel threatened by something,
they will growl at it. Lou doesn't like strangers with fast,
unpredictable movements and therefore does not like my sister's 2
year old and her dog, but likes other dogs and other 2 year olds.
Probably because he felt threatened at some point. Anyway, he
growls at those two and is only warming up to them after much
coaxing. My dog's father was a biter because he was kicked by a
stranger once. No one but the family could approach him. These
things may be true of any abused dog, but I just want you to
know that they aren't as happy-go-lucky as my Sheltie, for instance.
You shouldn't have problems with them around kids if they experience
them during puppyhood or are around them alot. In fact, if they
consider the kids part of their family, you won't find a better
dog for the child.
Well, I hope I have helped. I think that they are wonderful dogs and if you
must keep the dog in the back yard instead of in your house, get more than one
dog and spend all the time you are home with them. That's just an hour of play
and the rest of the evening to allow them in the house to watch T.V. or whatever
activity you want. They will be content just to hang out with you. Dogs are
not a low maintenence pet.
Good Luck!!
Julie
Pamela Mabon
>In article <9...@hpwala.wal.hp.com> hump...@hpward.UUCP (John Humphrys) writes:
>>Does anyone out there in dog land have some information
>>on American Eskimo (Spitz)....
>>...it seems that it would be a good family dog
>>that would be comfortable living outdoors.
>
>NOT ALONE!! Read on, please...
>
>>I would like to know how easily they train and whether the weather
>>in the Boston area is too mild for such a rugged dog. Any comments
>>on disposition would also be appreciated.
>
>I have an 'Eskie' and he's great!!!! I also know several of these dogs well
>and I feel I know the basic personality. I would suggest getting one to anyone.
>
I just need one thing cleared up -- aren't Eskimos and Spitzs different
breeds? I've seen my Spitz with an Eskie and they really do look
different. My female Spitz was definitely bigger than the Eskie male
and was built differently in may other ways :^).
My Spitz was a stray (a brown stray at that) and after I washed her she
turned brilliant white. She was between 6 and 10 when I got her 4 years
ago and there are definite quirks with her personality.
She is terrified of flashlights -- so much so that I almost lost her when
a friend of mine pulled one out to see what would happen and she took off.
She is a wonderful, schizo dog. She always lets me know when she's mad at
me (poop or piddle usually do the trick). When we got our Schnauzer, just
4 days after Crackers joined the family (the Spitz), Crackers walked into
the main bedroom, waited until I was watching and then let loose with the
"Yellow River". She did it twice to make sure I got the point.
Crackers doesn't like any of the other animals we have, at least when we're
there (although we've caught her sleeping with a cat curled up next to her),
but she won't bother them either. All in all she makes life interesting.
I don't know that I would get a Spitz again, but I don't regret having
Crackers one minute.
Pam and Crackers