euthanize jackson chameleon
Arthur Lee
What is best way to euthanize a jackson chameleon.??
--
Arthur Lee,
Central Connection
Melissa's Mealworms
P.O. Box 77
Paia, HI. 96779-0077
Matt Yankee
Why do you want to euthanize your chameleon? Before you quickly decide
its life should be ended, take it to a vet. If you have already done all
these things, I am sorry. I just want to make sure that you have used
EVERY option before euthanizing the chameleon.
************************************************************************
Matthew A. Yankee
Parma, Ohio
E-mail: Tuat...@worldnet.att.net
Or: Tuat...@aol.com
Herp Page: http://members.aol.com/Tuataras1/
************************************************************************
Matt Yankee
StickyFarm
If all is lost, I wrap the chameleon in a towl, and place it into the
freezer. For a cold blooded animal, this is a painless death.
Sorry about your animal.
Steve, Sticky Tongue Farms
A. HIGHFIELD
Steve,
During the "Swedish incident" when 1,000 Horsfield's tortoises were
destroyed in the same manner, it became apparent that it is by no means
clear cut that freezing is a humane death for reptiles. There are a
number of veterinary references which call this technique into question.
As far as I know, the ONLY truly humane method is an injection of
veterinary euthanasia solution, i.e. a massive drug overdose. This is the
only method I would personally consider entirely painless.
Andy C. Highfield
StickyFarm
I have been using the freezing method to put chameleons down for years.
They do not move, thrash, or do anything but go to sleep forever. They are
cold blooded animals and do not have the same concerns as warm blooded
animals such as Ice cristles in the blood becoming painfull. I do not
believe that this method is painfull at all to these animals. I would be
interested in Mr. Highfields observations. I sometimes cut the heads off
if I don't have the access to a freezer, but I don't like to do this. I
know death is instant that way, but I would make a lousy barbarian. I will
not let a animal under my care suffer. Nor can I see taking every dieing
animal on the farm to a vet to be killed. This would cost a fortune. I do
have access to ketimine, but I use this for anastesia as I do not have a
endless supply. What other methods would you seggest?
Steve, Sticky Tongue Farms
EyeD...@ixnetcom.com
StickyFarm wrote:
>I will
> not let a animal under my care suffer. Nor can I see taking every dieing
> animal on the farm to a vet to be killed. This would cost a fortune. I do
> have access to ketimine, but I use this for anastesia as I do not have a
> endless supply. What other methods would you seggest?
You could sell 'em to a pet store, say they're hibernating.
StickyFarm
>EyeDrama wrote:
>You could sell 'em to a pet store, say they're hibernating.
animal to a pet store? Is this a joke?
Steve, S.T.F.
Mike Fry
StickyFarm wrote:
>
> I have been using the freezing method to put chameleons down for years.
> They do not move, thrash, or do anything but go to sleep forever. They are
> cold blooded animals and do not have the same concerns as warm blooded
> animals such as Ice cristles in the blood becoming painfull. I do not
> believe that this method is painfull at all to these animals. I would be
The bottom line is that we do not know if this method is painful or not. It would
depend on how evenly the animals body cooled. That was the point. Ice crystals do
form in their tissue as they freeze (or they would not freeze). If they are
conscious, you can bet this is painful (which is why I brought up the idea of the tip
of the tail, etc. This and other areas could freeze before the body temp is low
enough for the animal to loose consciousness. Again, no one knows for sure.)
The original poster asked the best (I read "most humane" method) for doing this.
Freezing alone is not it.
> interested in Mr. Highfields observations. I sometimes cut the heads off
> if I don't have the access to a freezer, but I don't like to do this. I
> know death is instant that way, but I would make a lousy barbarian. I will
> not let a animal under my care suffer. Nor can I see taking every dieing
> animal on the farm to a vet to be killed. This would cost a fortune. I do
> have access to ketimine, but I use this for anastesia as I do not have a
> endless supply. What other methods would you seggest?
For starters, Ketamine is not an anesthetic. It is a muiscle immobilizer. It is a
very traumatic and stressful drug to administer, unless you add another drug that will
serve as an anesthetic. It is often mixed with valium or rompam (in mammals). I have
not heard of it being used in reptiles.
Ketamine was originally used in the Viet Nam to perform surgery in the field. It
would immobilize the soldures so that medics could perform necessary operations. Many
of these patients suffered serious stress-related difficulties as a result of being
immobilized with this drug.
There was a long debate about the ethics of using this drug on animals on the
compuserv Vet forum a year or so ago. Only a small handfull of vets stood up in favor
of using this drug. And non of them recommended using it by itself.
As for your method of ending the suffering of your animals. I guess we all need to
make difficult choices. The rules applied to facilities that have thousands of
animals and which need to operate with a profit are different than those applied by
people who are keeping pets. So the advice I would give to someone like you might be
different than what I would give to a smaller breeder or importer. It would certainly
be different than what I would recommend for someone thinking of euthanizing their
pet.
FWIW -- there are plenty of vets who are willing to cooperate in these activities, by
providing drugs and advice on these issues. It would, for example, be very easy to
anesthitise the animal prior to freezing it, using different gas compounds (available
from cooperative vets).
By taking this short, extra step, you would *know* the animal went to sleep painlessly
and easily. And it would not have to add much (if any) real cost to the process. For
people who work with large numbers of animals, having a cooperating vet is, IMO,
essential anyway. So having these sorts of drugs/services on hand should not be a
problem.
--
Mike
http://www.skypoint.com/members/mikefry/members/chams.html
http://www.skypoint.com/members/mikefry/members/ark/rescue.html
Minneapolis, Minnesota/USA
"Argue for your limitations and, sure enough, they are yours."
- Richard Bach
Mike Fry
I am pretty sure it was a joke. Makes a number of points: 1) If it was not
dead before the pet shop got their hands on it, it would be soon <G>
And 2) It sounds like the kind of thing I would expect to hear from many pet
shops selling half-dead animals.
I thought it was pretty funny 78^b
StickyFarm
The ketimine I use is to hold the animal still during treatment. I use it
usually in conjunction with novacain for treating mouth leasions just to
let you know that I am aware of it's use. It has worked very well for me.
Try to clean a Parsonii mouth rot without it and by-by fingers. But a
overdose of the stuff causes painless death, but it is hard to get and I
use itonly for treatments. I do have a few vets that work with us.
Unfortunitly the ones that are close enough to do any good charge big
bucks. I do not use them. The decapatation works. Maybe I will stick with
that. It hurts me more than it hurts them. I just cringe when I have to do
it. But it is fast and painless.
Steve, Sticky Tongue Farms
Jason Deines
In article <32C95B...@skypoint.com>, mik...@skypoint.com wrote:
>StickyFarm wrote:
>> >EyeDrama wrote:
>> >You could sell 'em to a pet store, say they're hibernating.
>> Is this a funny? I don't get it. Are you segesting selling a sick or dead
>> animal to a pet store? Is this a joke?
>
>I am pretty sure it was a joke. Makes a number of points: 1) If it was not
>dead before the pet shop got their hands on it, it would be soon <G>
>
>And 2) It sounds like the kind of thing I would expect to hear from many pet
>shops selling half-dead animals.
>
>I thought it was pretty funny 78^b
I too thought it was indended as a joke, but I thought it was a bit misplaced,
although I think I "got it". . .
I mean, talk about the *least* humane way to put down a chameleon, considering
the conditions one tends to find in many pet stores. Mike's points #1 & #2
are unfortunately quite true, but to me, anyway, not very funny at all. . .
I am probably overreacting just a bit, but both subjects are a sensitive
area with me. Frankly, assuming the post was made in good faith, and the
person has reason to think that the chameleon should be put down, the last
thing *I* would want to hear in their situation are jokes. . .
Seems to me the best recommendation would be to find a sympathetic and
competent vet who can either help the animal recover if that is possible, or
if it is not, determine the best way to alleviate its suffering.
--Jason
Jason Deines
East Providence, RI
jaso...@sprynet.com
A. HIGHFIELD
Not too sure that decapitation is painless or instant, either. There was
a pretty grisly series of experiments conducted in France in the late
18th and early 19th centuries involving a variety of animal subjects plus
a few human criminals. You guessed it. The Guillotine. A lot of evidence
points out that human subjects may retain consciousness for up to 40
seconds following decapitation - depends on blood oxygen levels and rate
at which blood drains out of the severed head. With reptiles, which have
a very high tolerance to low blood oxygen levels, my guess is that
consciousness is not lost immediately. This is confirmed by many reliable
reports of decapitated snakes continuing to retain the capacity to bite.
I agree with Mike - of all possible methods, gassing with an anaesthetic
gas, or iv injection of a humane killing preparation is the only sure way
to *guarantee* no, or minimal, suffering.
Ask yourself this question - if YOU had to be put down, would you prefer
an injection or having your head chopped off?
After all that,
Happy New Year!!
REgards,
Andy
Mike Fry
I see your point. You have to remember -- I worked in places were *thousands* of animals
were euthanized every year. And often, I was the one doing it. So I may be a little
more "desensitized" to death humor. However, I still feel the act itself deserves very
careful consideration and thought. Which is why I agree 100% - if at all possible, this
should be done by a vet.
EyeD...@ixnetcom.com
StickyFarm wrote:
>
> >EyeDrama wrote:
> >You could sell 'em to a pet store, say they're hibernating.
> Is this a funny? I don't get it. Are you segesting selling a sick or dead
> animal to a pet store? Is this a joke?
Yes, a joke. Not meant to offend. Well, not really. I just happen
to believe that the best way to save the animals is through efforts to
save habitat in Madagascar and *not* through the American pet-trade.
Kevin
"Time's fun when you're having flies."
Mike1sd
Would the CO2 gassing or the cervical dislocation methods used on feeder
rodents work on a Jackson?
Paul Huang
Kevin, that's a damn cool quote! That's all.
Paul Huang
Mike Fry
Mike1sd wrote:
>
> Would the CO2 gassing or the cervical dislocation methods used on feeder
> rodents work on a Jackson?
CO2 would be slow and far from painless. Cervical dislocation could be disasterous.
Again. . . veteranarians are the ones who should perform these proceedures.
IMO, if people are not capable of taking care of their animals (including taking them to
a vet for humane euthanasia if that becomes necessary) they should not have the animals.
Pam Hanratty
A local pet store in Pittsburgh was trying to sell an obviously dead
baby caiman to a 12 year old boy, telling him that it was "just
hibernating". Incidentally, at that point, I knew for a fact that the
caiman had been dead for at least a week, since it was dead on the
previous Saturday when I was in the store. They were quite angry when I
informed the boy that it was *very dead*.
(BTW, this occurred a number of years ago, and the pet store in question
is no longer in business...but was notorious for doing numerous
unethical things.)
Pam
Douglas T. Gray
I would put him in a plasitc bag and put him in the freezer. I know
this sounds like animal cruelty but look. Most snakes kill there prey by
constiction or suffocation. lions and large cats tear the air tube from
their preys neck. The chemeleon would run out of air long before in it
froze. And since reptiles are coldblooded it would not suffer any.
Mike Fry
Actually, suffocation is a very slow and painful process for a reptile, which
have a very high tollerance for low-oxygen states. They do not use near the
oxygen that we warm blooded animals use.
If you could manage to suffoacte them, it would take a very long time. And it
is said that suffocation is one of the more painful of deaths.
This is a classic example of why this sort of thing should not be done by people
who do not know what they are doing. If the goal is just to kill the animal
with no real concern for its experience. . . well, then just about any technique
could suffice -- and IMO, the owner would be better off buying a Chia Pet and
not a chameleon.
--
Mike
http://www.skypoint.com/members/mikefry/chams.html
http://www.skypoint.com/members/mikefry/ark/rescue.html
Steven E. Schafer
StickyFarm wrote:
>
> And would you go about killing a Chia pet. This is a living thing. Would
> you freeze it? would the little Chia grass feel anything? Science says
> that plants feel pain. Do you have a Chia pet Mike? How do you water your
> Chia pet.
That's why they freeze brain dead people? That's how Dr. Kavorkian
does it right? Who are you to talk about science anyway?
Steve Schafer
st...@orsp1.adm.binghamton.edu
Binghamton, New York
StickyFarm
And would you go about killing a Chia pet. This is a living thing. Would
you freeze it? would the little Chia grass feel anything? Science says
that plants feel pain. Do you have a Chia pet Mike? How do you water your
Chia pet.
RSC Geology
A. HIGHFIELD wrote:
>
> I agree with Mike - of all possible methods, gassing with an anaesthetic
> gas, or iv injection of a humane killing preparation is the only sure way
> to *guarantee* no, or minimal, suffering.
At the risk of sounding like a savage. How about using a heavy object
(like a brick) for a quick blow that smashes the brain case?
Potentially messy, but death has to be instananeous and the animal
will not suffer any more than if it were killed by a vet.
Phil Hughes
Mike Fry
RSC Geology wrote:
> At the risk of sounding like a savage. How about using a heavy object
> (like a brick) for a quick blow that smashes the brain case?
> Potentially messy, but death has to be instananeous and the animal
> will not suffer any more than if it were killed by a vet.
>
Well. . . you *could* have a point. . . but there are a few problems with this that I
have witnessed first hand.
1) Many people seriously underestimate the impact required to kill an animal. And, if
you do not kill the animal in the first "blow" . . . ah. . . well, then you have
strayed far from that humane goal.
2) Most people are not emotionally prepared to do this sort of thing to a pet (and
thankfully so). They are even less prepared to deal with the trauma associated with a
botched attempt at euthanasia with this technique.
In wildlife rehab, I have personally experienced cases where small, private rehabers
brought animals to our facility to be euthanized after failing to perform the task at
home. I can tell you that if this does not work the first time, it is *not* humane,
for either the animal or the owner.
Again, all of this can be avoided by calling a vet who will perform the procedure.
These people have been trained to do this. They have the tools, drugs and information
to do it painlessly -- or at least with minimal pain. I have *several* vets in my area
that will even make a house call for a very small fee.
IMO, there is no good excuse for not handling this in an educated and responsible
manner.