Tom Crutchfield's Reptile Enterprises
Carmelo Gabonica Rhinoceros
Just wanted to know if anyone had any comments about Crutchfied's
Reptile Enterprises.
Reason I ask is because I'll be purchasing a large selection of
reptiles in the up coming weeks.
You may E-MAIL my privately.
Thanks.
CARMELO GABONICA RHINOCEROS ;-)
Stephen Kunc
>
> HI ALL,
>
> Just wanted to know if anyone had any comments about Crutchfied's
> Reptile Enterprises.
>
> Reason I ask is because I'll be purchasing a large selection of
> reptiles in the up coming weeks.
>
Crutchfield's are unreliable scoundrels.
In October '94 I gave them the relatively simple (or so you'd think)
order of one 2 1/2' alligator, one albino horned frog, and one juvenile
green anaconda.
I didn't see anything for the rest of '94. Finally in late February of
'95, an 11 inch alligator arrived. I kept the alligator anyway, despite
the size problem, out of frustration. A couple months later, the horned
frog arrived, except it wasn't an albino. I accepted it anyway, out of
frustration. It is now June of '95, closing in on a full YEAR since I
originally ordered, and I still haven't gotten the anaconda. In the mean
time, I've heard from them at least a dozen times saying that it will
be here "this week"... that was from Feb '95 to present. (It's supposed
to be here this week again, but won't). Their latest excuse for the
one that was supposed to arrive last week was that it unfortunately
died while they were packaging it.
My suggestion to you, if you plan on ordering from Crutchfield's, is
to recite your order in agonizingly slow detail, and perhaps even
spell the items phonetically. Ask them at least 14 times if they have
the animal there, and it is not "on its way" from somewhere. If you
order anything that is an albino, remind them that that means that it
will look kinda whitish when they package it. If you order anything
of a specific size, give the measurement in metric and imperial
notation, and fax them a scaled drawing. If you order anything that
requires them to organize paperwork, they will sell the animal in the
mean time to someone who doesn't, then only start looking around for
your order when the paperwork is finished. Curiously, sometimes when
you order from Crutchfield's, the animals arrive postmarked from some
other business.
To their credit, the animals from Crutchfield's all seem generally in
good health and are hardy, even if they aren't necessarily the animals
that you ordered.
email: s...@capitalnet.com
J. Monahan
>mini...@ix.netcom.com (Carmelo Gabonica Rhinoceros ) wrote:
>> Just wanted to know if anyone had any comments about Crutchfied's
>> Reptile Enterprises.
>
>Crutchfield's are unreliable scoundrels.
-Deleted stuff-
===============================
I had a couple comments. First, the pricelist itself was unreadable in
anyother than a graphical browser that supports tables. Via modem (LYNX) it
was a solid block of text eith no spaces or order. This is especially
unfortunate since it isn't necessary. The tables took forever to load even
with a T1 connection. There's too many easy ways around this to be excused.
Technical stuff aside. How could anyone putting out a price list with
literally thousands of wild caught animals on it have the audacity to include
a footnote, "Conservation through Commercialization"?
If that was a joke it would be a good one - but since it was apparently
sincere it is really pathetic.
Bryan Mohr
>mini...@ix.netcom.com (Carmelo Gabonica Rhinoceros ) wrote:
>>
>> HI ALL,
>>
>> Just wanted to know if anyone had any comments about Crutchfied's
>> Reptile Enterprises.
>Crutchfield's are unreliable scoundrels.
' Lot's of stuff deleted '
>email: s...@capitalnet.com
Sorry to hear of your troubles with TCRE. All of my dealings with them
have been good, prompt, and accurate. I have ordered animals from
them on 4 different occasions. Only one time did an animal arrive
dead. Part of the order was 10 Emperor scorpions. One of the scorpions
did not survive the trip. All of the rest got to me fine.
I've ordered many of the exotic animals from the price list and have
never had a problem getting them (although I've heard other people
say that the price list is basically fiction, I have NEVER had this be
the case).
There was one time when I noticed that they had 1 Brazilian Rainbow
Boa for sale. I wanted it. I called and it had been sold. But, they
promised to get me one within a week. They delivered on that promise
within 3 days of my call.
And as the previous poster mentioned, all of the animals are in good
condition. I have never had a problem with any of the animals that I
have ordered from Crutchfields.
btw, I am not associated with Tom Crutchfields Reptile Enterprises in
any way except that I am a very satisfied customer, and wanted to help
them out by providing their price list to more people. So I made the
following WWW page with their price list:
http://www.best.com/~watr/tcre.html
Check it out sometime.
Bryan Mohr
Mike Balsai
> Technical stuff aside. How could anyone putting out a price list with
> literally thousands of wild caught animals on it have the audacity to include
> a footnote, "Conservation through Commercialization"?
>
> If that was a joke it would be a good one - but since it was apparently
> sincere it is really pathetic.
>
animals", the above is ludicrously grotesque.
Mike Balsai
Bryan Mohr
>In note <3sc0er$c...@bcarh8ab.bnr.ca>, Stephen Kunc writes:
>>mini...@ix.netcom.com (Carmelo Gabonica Rhinoceros ) wrote:
>>> Just wanted to know if anyone had any comments about Crutchfied's
>>> Reptile Enterprises.
>I had a couple comments. First, the pricelist itself was unreadable in
>anyother than a graphical browser that supports tables. Via modem (LYNX) it
As for the pricelist, I am going to be breaking it up into seperate
,html files for each section of the pricelist. I will also be doing a
text only version of it for non-graphical browsers (LYNX).
>Technical stuff aside. How could anyone putting out a price list with
>literally thousands of wild caught animals on it have the audacity to include
>a footnote, "Conservation through Commercialization"?
I personally cannot answer this but will ask Tom Crutchfield for a
response to this question.
>If that was a joke it would be a good one - but since it was apparently
>sincere it is really pathetic.
Bryan Mohr
Michael Stephen Grace
> >
> > Technical stuff aside. How could anyone putting out a price list with
> > literally thousands of wild caught animals on it have the audacity to include
> > a footnote, "Conservation through Commercialization"?
> >
> > sincere it is really pathetic.
> >
> animals", the above is ludicrously grotesque.
>
> Mike Balsai
YEp, he's a pretty smarmy character, both personally and
professionally. I have heard of many many problems with him.
Numersous people I know personally have received sick, dying,
or dead animals from him, and have had little or no luck
getting any sort of help from him.
And yes, he was convicted of smuggling endangered animals. The
conviction was overturned on technicalities, though. Why would
anyone support a business that engages in such practices AND
has poor quality material. There are so many other suppliers
out there.
In addition, Crutchfield has led a campaign to abolish all
concepts of endangered species as far as his trade in reptiles
and amphiians is concerned. His arguments are illogical and
rediculous, and the truth of his motivation is very plain to
see: GREED/PROFIT.
Bottom line: don't trust anything he or his people say.
Why buy from him when there are so many other sources?
Why buy from someone who obiviously has a bad record?
And why buy wild-caught when you could have captive-produced?
Bryan Mohr
>Technical stuff aside. How could anyone putting out a price list with
>literally thousands of wild caught animals on it have the audacity to include
>a footnote, "Conservation through Commercialization"?
At least 75 percent of all animals that Tom Crutchfield sells are
captive bred.
I spoke with Tom earlier today. Another thing he mentions is that,
since he's been in business over 20 years, he must be doing something
that people like!
It seems that all of the bad attitudes towards Tom started when the
legal problems with the Fiji Iguana's started. In case you haven't
heard, that case was overturned by the courts due to "Gross
prosecutorial misconduct".
I really don't understand why some people who have never dealt with
Tom feel the need to badmouth him or his business. Especially when
they do NOT know all of the facts.
Tom Crutchfield, and all of his employees/associates are very
likeable, and helpful. As I've said before, I've never had a problem
with them, and will continue to trust them with my reptile purchases
for the forseeable future.
Bryan Mohr
http://www.best.com/~watr/tcre.html - Graphics/Table version
http://www.best.com/~watr/tcre2.html - Text only version
Bryan Mohr
>Crutchfield's are unreliable scoundrels.
>In October '94 I gave them the relatively simple (or so you'd think)
>order of one 2 1/2' alligator, one albino horned frog, and one juvenile
>green anaconda.
Stephen, I have a question for you. Are you in Canada as your
address suggests?
Bryan Mohr
Bryan Mohr
>Considering that I was told TC got into trouble for selling "illegal
>animals", the above is ludicrously grotesque.
>Mike Balsai
Sorry, but the courts overturned the case due to "Gross
Prosecutorial misconduct".
Bryan Mohr
Tony Berke
: J. Monahan <jmon...@blue.weeg.uiowa.edu> wrote:
: >Technical stuff aside. How could anyone putting out a price list with
: >literally thousands of wild caught animals on it have the audacity to include
: >a footnote, "Conservation through Commercialization"?
: At least 75 percent of all animals that Tom Crutchfield sells are
: captive bred.
I find this highly unlikely. I've known several people in the
Columbus,OH area who've ordered from Cruthchfield; (orders ranging from
500 to 5,000 dollars), and none of them ever got a captive hatched, much
less captive bred animal. The last person who ordered a rather expensive
boa was Terry Wilkins, of "Captive Born Reptiles". I was in his shop when
he opened the snake bag. This animal was terribly emaciated, with its
backbone sticking out for the length of its body, and it was covered with
ectoparasites - It looked like it had been collected days before shipping
without going through any sort of pre-sales check at all. This was a $500
boa, and it looked like it would take all of Terry's expertise just to
keep the thing alive.
Any one who's had a good experience with Crutchfield, count yourself lucky.
Tony
Stephen Kunc
Yes, I am in Canada. And if you'll allow me to speculate on your
question, the CITES paperwork for the animals I ordered was complete
before the end of '94 (and for which I also had to pay extra).
I'm going to fax Crutchfield's a refund request today, for the
anaconda I never got. I won't get anywhere retrieving the extra
money I paid for a 2 1/2' alligator but only received an 11 inch one,
nor will I get anywhere for receiving a normal horned frog when I
paid for an albino.
All of which is really too bad for them more than it is for me,
because I'll just try another shop when I might have become a good
customer for TC. Unfortunately, if'n ya aren't buying their albino
alligators, Crutchfield's just doesn't care about your business. The
5 alligators that arrived with the one I ordered arrived frozen. What
a swell buncha guys to have wrapped them in newspapers like that.
Steve
email: s...@capitalnet.com
Jennifer E. Swofford
Repti.. by Bryan Mo...@best.com
Ack! Do you think that an overturning due to "gross prosecutorial
misconduct" has anything to do with the case itself? More likely, it
means that the prosecutors just didn't say "your honor" enough and
Crutchfield got off on a technicality. Don't you watch TV? This damn
O.J. thing just epitomizes the absurdity of the American legal system.
Anyway, I, too, have heard nasty things about TC and illegal exporation,
and naturally, since I am against legal exporation, I don't like hearing
about the illegal kind one bit. But, having never dealt with him and
knowing that he has indeed been in business for quite some time, I give
him the benefit of the doubt. Looking at his price list, tho, what with
the albino alligators and iguanas, well, I just don't particularly
support this kind of animal exploitation. I bet lots that those two
breeding albino igs are closely related. BUT, once again, the benefit
of the doubt....
Jen Swofford---...@cmu.edu--------iguanidae@aol.com
To access my green iguana FAQ, try:
http://gto.ncsa.uiuc.edu/pingleto/herps/iguanacare.html
Independent Account 2181
: >literally thousands of wild caught animals on it have the audacity to include
: >a footnote, "Conservation through Commercialization"?
There is the idea that an area with limited natural resources can produce
a reasonable economy base exporting some wildlife. In Madagascar for
example, its hard to convince a poor individual not to clear forest for
firewood for his family income. However, with attention to avoiding over
collection, a sustainable yield of panther chameleons could be taken that
would provide that individual with the incentive to protect the same
forests. If a government feels wildlife can generate income, especially
in areas with depressed economys, they are more likely to strictly
enforce the protection of thet resource even going so far as setting land
aside for it thus protecting non-harvested species. Look at the success
with crocodilian farming in India and Australia.
I'm all in favor of obtaining captive bred animals when possible
but this isn't practical for many species. It also does nothing to
protect wild populations which MUST be maintained for reasons of genetic
diversity. Any animal collection however must be strictly monitored to
ensure the protection of the wild population.
George Carson
J. Monahan
>: >Technical stuff aside. How could anyone putting out a price list with
>: >literally thousands of wild caught animals on it have the audacity to
>include : >a footnote, "Conservation through Commercialization"?
>
>There is the idea that an area with limited natural resources can produce
>a reasonable economy base exporting some wildlife. In Madagascar for
>example, its hard to convince a poor individual not to clear forest for
>firewood for his family income. However, with attention to avoiding over
>collection, a sustainable yield of panther chameleons could be taken that
>would provide that individual with the incentive to protect the same
>forests. If a government feels wildlife can generate income, especially
>in areas with depressed economys, they are more likely to strictly
Of course, this is a point I've been arguing all along. But believe me, T
Crutch.'s importing 1000 Ball pythins, etc. is a far cry from the approach you
recommend here. (I wish he were interested in this approach - he'd make alot
more money and do a world of good for herp conservation world-wide.)---
Joe Monahan ** ** Web Page Design
CORVUS MULTIMEDIA INC ** ** Computer Graphics
Joe-M...@uiowa.edu ** ** Multimedia Production
605 East Burlington St. ** ** Iowa City, IA 52240
jeffrey bell
: I spoke with Tom earlier today. Another thing he mentions is that,
: since he's been in business over 20 years, he must be doing something
: that people like!
Oooh, there's some keen logic for 'ya.
"We can't be doing anything wrong, we've been poaching elephants for 20
years, and turning a profit too!"
Doom on you, Crutchfield.
Jeff
--
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
} Jeff Bell, Process Engr. | Let's assume that friction is negligible,{
{ H-P Corvallis, OR, USA | beer has no calories and Hewlett-Packard }
} jb...@hpcvsgen.cv.hp.com | shares these same views, or maybe not. {
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Jeff Barringer
somewhere and of all the thousands of w/c animals TC has sold, their
captive raised progeny probably far outnumber the w/c at this point.
Andrew Boyd
Just on this point - where I live (Canberra, ACT, Australia) all herps
kept as pets must *by law* be captive bred. They are of course descended
from wild caught specimens. What it means is that I can't walk into my
friendly neighbourhood herp store and just buy a snake/lizard/frog
whenever it suits me, but must approach a breeder, fill out my permit
application and *wait*. While this makes it harder, and I personally
find the waiting time annoying, I recognise that this is best for the
animal concerned.
This would not stop me, granted, going out when the weather gets warmer
and catching a Bearded Dragon or two. But I won't do it because of the
ethical and legal reasons. I do envy you the availability of herps in
the USA, but I am happier knowing that Australia doesn't allow commercial
importation of Reptiles. We seem to be doing a good enough job killing
off our herps without the help of any (more) exotics!
Regards, Andrew Boyd
(ab...@pcug.org.au)
Mark....@mail.tju.edu
Jeff Barringer <Jbar...@io.com> writes:
>
>Don't know TC, Never met TC. All I know is captive breds gotta start
>somewhere and of all the thousands of w/c animals TC has sold, their
>captive raised progeny probably far outnumber the w/c at this point.
dealers (I do hope that all the animals are legally collected, though).
But hundreds of thousands of animals that enter the pet trade usually are
dead within 4-6 months under the care of pet shops and consumers.
As much as I'd LIKE to believe that the captive-bred progeny greatly exceed
the wild-collected animals... I don't think that is the case with most dealers
or most reptiles at this point.
It might be true for a couple dealers that produce thousands of corn snakes
--because a $5-25 wholesale snake is more efficient than paying someone to
collect wild snakes that may or may not do well in captivity.
The only two other examples I can think of are clawed frogs and bearded
dragons. Hopefully there will be more examples in the future.
Regards,
Mark Miller FAX: 215-464-3561
Mark....@mail.tju.edu CIS: 70176, 1153
Herpetology Online Network (SysOp) --> BBS: 215-698-1905
Tony Berke
: In article <3sqku8$o...@anaxagoras.io.com>
: Jeff Barringer <Jbar...@io.com> writes:
:
: >
: >Don't know TC, Never met TC. All I know is captive breds gotta start
: >somewhere and of all the thousands of w/c animals TC has sold, their
: >captive raised progeny probably far outnumber the w/c at this point.
:
: I have no objection to breeders acquiring founding stock via commercial
: dealers (I do hope that all the animals are legally collected, though).
I too, would really like to believe Crouchfield and other large
animal brokers are ethical enough to acquire their breeding stock from
wild-caughts, then commence with captive breeding projects. I know all too
many where this just ain't so. I once asked an importer why Russian
tortoises aren't captive bred, and his answer was that there's no money in
it. It's much cheaper to continue to import thousands of wild-caughts, so
what if 60-75% of them die before even being sold retail, its still more
economical than trying to breed them.
As long as the almighty buck is most folks main concern, animals
and habitats don't stand a chance of being considered important enough to
be saved.
Tony
Nyles J Bauer
importers.
I can't tell you where Crutchfields animals come
from. I can say that the place appeared clean and
it was hard to find a dead reptile in any tank.
This is not meant as an endorsement of any kind,
in fact the place was still depressing.
However, I have NEVER seen a more missmanaged and
terribly kept place than Strictly Reptiles. Almost all
pens and tanks contained large quantities of sick and
dead animals. In one pen lizards were just piled upon
each other with the bottom level just dead.
When I entered they took my camera away to hold until
I left.
Dont Buy from this place or from pet stores that do...PLEASE!
After seeing what Strictly does to their animals I would support
almost any regulations to see that they (and importers like them)
are put out of business.
Nyles
John Varney
>However, I have NEVER seen a more missmanaged and
>terribly kept place than Strictly Reptiles. Almost all
>pens and tanks contained large quantities of sick and
>dead animals. In one pen lizards were just piled upon
>each other with the bottom level just dead.
>When I entered they took my camera away to hold until
>I left.
>Dont Buy from this place or from pet stores that do...PLEASE!
>
>After seeing what Strictly does to their animals I would support
>almost any regulations to see that they (and importers like them)
>are put out of business.
>
This is why some of us are breeding these animals.
I can tell you this: Most petshops that keep animals the way
you describe don't last long (At least here in Arizona).
Thanks for the tip though. I rarely buy from importers,
(Glades Herps being the exception), and after your report,
Strictly Reptiles goes on the B-3 list.....
Do you mind if I re-post this on my BBS?
--
John Varney ---- jo...@syspac.com | Say it with
| Flowers....
Desert Serpents Reptiles (602) 837-8925 |
Ophidian Herpeticultural BBS (602) 837-7305 | Send a Triffid
Laura Corriss
>I just got back from a short tour of the Florida
>importers.
>I can't tell you where Crutchfields animals come
>from. I can say that the place appeared clean and
>it was hard to find a dead reptile in any tank.
>This is not meant as an endorsement of any kind,
>in fact the place was still depressing.
>
>terribly kept place than Strictly Reptiles. Almost all
>pens and tanks contained large quantities of sick and
>dead animals. In one pen lizards were just piled upon
>each other with the bottom level just dead.
>When I entered they took my camera away to hold until
>I left.
>Dont Buy from this place or from pet stores that do...PLEASE!
>
>After seeing what Strictly does to their animals I would support
>almost any regulations to see that they (and importers like them)
>are put out of business.
>
>
About 2 years ago my sister and I visited Strictly Reptiles and had
the same reaction you had. I wrote to all the member groups of the
League of Florida Herp Societies. We called the human society, who
refused to do anything. A couple members from one of the other herp
groups contacted state authorities, but all that resulted in was a
move to a new location and a temporary cleanup. SR shows up at
the august herp conference in Orlando each year. Last year several
people and I had a long discussion with the Wayne Hill about them
(one of their workers was literally throwing baby iguanas into a bag).
I have a lot of respect for Wayne, but he seems to have a blind spot
about SR. I suspect in part it's because so many reptile importers
(which is what Strictly Reptiles is) are so bad, that this one seems not
too bad in comparison.
I seriously believe that we have to start policing ourselves. Perhaps
as the influence of the net increases, we can start using that to gain
more clout with pet shops, importers, etc. If we could come up with
a basic list of requirements and a grading system and start grading
pet shops as we come across them (or even a pass/fail system), and
give our stamp of approval (something that the stores could post for
the public, like the "Good Housekeeping Seal"), it might help. Anyway,
it would be a start.
If any of you are divers, you know that you must be certified to SCUBA
dive. No dive shop will rent you gear nor take you diving without proof
of certification. It is not a law or regulation. It is something that
the dive industry stated to prevent the state / Federal government from
regulating them. And it works. We should use it as a model for what
can be achieved.
Anyway, what's the feeling on t about this? Anything think it's
doable? Anyway want to get involved? Anyone here with the expertise
to help put this together?
--
Laura Corriss (lcor...@gate.net)
David A. Millar
> However, I have NEVER seen a more missmanaged and
> terribly kept place than Strictly Reptiles. Almost all
> pens and tanks contained large quantities of sick and
> dead animals. In one pen lizards were just piled upon
> each other with the bottom level just dead.
> When I entered they took my camera away to hold until
> I left.
> Dont Buy from this place or from pet stores that do...PLEASE!
I have to take exception to this.
I've been to Strictly Reptiles a number of times and don't recall seeing
the situation you described (and I assure you I would notice.)
Strictly Doesn't have a "back area" and perhaps what you saw were
the newly arrived animals in the wooden holding pens. I'm not trying to
justify anything, but I just don't believe the report based on what I've
seen at Strictly previously. It would be interesting to see the "back
area" at Crutchfield's or Glades to see if they're any different.
Mark
--
<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>
Mark Crafts Melbourne FL
mcr...@digital.net
"You only live once, but if you do it right, once is enough."
Mark Garvin
>In article <3tfd7f$d...@news.ccit.arizona.edu> ny...@aruba.ccit.arizona.edu (Nyles J Bauer) writes:
>>However, I have NEVER seen a more missmanaged and
>>terribly kept place than Strictly Reptiles. Almost all
>>pens and tanks contained large quantities of sick and
>>dead animals. In one pen lizards were just piled upon
>>each other with the bottom level just dead.
In <3thpu4$41...@hopi.gate.net> lcor...@news.gate.net (Laura Corriss) writes:
>About 2 years ago my sister and I visited Strictly Reptiles and had
>the same reaction you had. I wrote to all the member groups of the
>League of Florida Herp Societies. We called the human society, who
>refused to do anything. A couple members from one of the other herp
>groups contacted state authorities, but all that resulted in was a
>move to a new location and a temporary cleanup. SR shows up at
>...
>(one of their workers was literally throwing baby iguanas into a bag).
>
>I seriously believe that we have to start policing ourselves. Perhaps
>as the influence of the net increases, we can start using that to gain
>more clout with pet shops, importers, etc. If we could come up with
>a basic list of requirements and a grading system and start grading
>pet shops as we come across them (or even a pass/fail system), and
>give our stamp of approval (something that the stores could post for
>the public, like the "Good Housekeeping Seal"), it might help. Anyway,
>it would be a start.
Not much I could add to this Laura (and Nyles), except that I think
it's a great idea. The fact that both you and Nyles have had this
same reaction says something about this place.
The first resource, of course, should be the humane society, but I
believe you when you indicate that they are overloaded and probably
somewhat jaded.
On an informal level, if this group were to keep an ongoing list
of vendors and stores that are the worst offenders, and just keep
posting it about once a week, it should add some inducement for
these people to clean up their acts.
I posted a message regarding New World Aquariums (pet store on 8th
avenue in NYC) a couple months ago. They were apparently a smaller
scale version of 'Strictly Reptiles'. I also reported them to the
local humane society.
A couple things come to mind. I doubt that there could be much
question regarding motivation of most of us, but I still believe
that the first step is always the legal option. Then after the Humane
Society has been contacted, we could keep a list of those that keep
mistreating their animals, as Strictly seems to be doing.
Regarding libel or any legal repercussions, I am not the slightest bit
concerned about mentioning (for instance) New World Aquariums. Let
them do what they want. Libel relates to malicious *untrue*
assertions made as a deliberate attempt to injure someone's
reputation. Stating that their iguanas were starving to death and not
provided with any food or water is entirely true.
Similar statements about SR are, as far as I know, on safe legal
ground. But if there are any lawyers here who know the boundaries,
please speak up.
So, here's a vote to afford some free publicity to animal torturers.
Mark Garvin
jay gitomer
> In <3thpu4$41...@hopi.gate.net> lcor...@news.gate.net (Laura Corriss) writes:
(text about petshop horrors deleted)
> >I seriously believe that we have to start policing ourselves. Perhaps
> >as the influence of the net increases, we can start using that to gain
> >more clout with pet shops, importers, etc. If we could come up with
> >a basic list of requirements and a grading system and start grading
> >pet shops as we come across them (or even a pass/fail system), and
> >give our stamp of approval (something that the stores could post for
> >the public, like the "Good Housekeeping Seal"), it might help. Anyway,
> >it would be a start.
> The first resource, of course, should be the humane society, but I
> believe you when you indicate that they are overloaded and probably
> somewhat jaded.
>
> On an informal level, if this group were to keep an ongoing list
> of vendors and stores that are the worst offenders, and just keep
> posting it about once a week, it should add some inducement for
> these people to clean up their acts.
(More text about MORE petshop horrors deleted)
> A couple things come to mind. I doubt that there could be much
> question regarding motivation of most of us, but I still believe
> that the first step is always the legal option. Then after the Humane
> Society has been contacted, we could keep a list of those that keep
> mistreating their animals, as Strictly seems to be doing.
>
> Regarding libel or any legal repercussions, I am not the slightest bit
> concerned about mentioning (for instance) New World Aquariums. Let
> them do what they want. Libel relates to malicious *untrue*
> assertions made as a deliberate attempt to injure someone's
> reputation. Stating that their iguanas were starving to death and not
> provided with any food or water is entirely true.
>
> Similar statements about SR are, as far as I know, on safe legal
> ground. But if there are any lawyers here who know the boundaries,
> please speak up.
>
> So, here's a vote to afford some free publicity to animal torturers.
>
> Mark Garvin
Is it possible for someone to set up an interactive homepage, like
Trendy the Iguana's, so that anyone could type in an entry? Then
we wouldn't need to have individuals maintain the list, they could
just maintain the page, which might be easier.
For those who haven't visited Trendy, it's a homepage with a 'guest
book.' You type in a message and a short time later it appears on
a page with other messages, looking very spiffy and html.
If we had a serious page (no offense, Trendy) with a serious header,
any of us could check in to see where not to shop. Comments could be
added, but we'd have to find a way to prevent 8 million "I agree!"
messages from appearing.
On the positive side, a page with _recommended_ petshops would be of
equal value.
For the Horror Page:
I volunteer Reptiles Unlimited in Gaithersburg MD --STILL a hellhole,
even after LeeAnn West *forced* them to clean cages and provide clean
water! And have heard more horror stories since, including a FOAF who
said there was a box with two large dead igs across the street from
them, can you believe it?! Talk about contempt for life, just throw-
ing them in the trash without even the dignity of a TRASH BAG!-- and
Tropical Lagoon in Silver Spring, MD, where they have no vitalites,
too small cages, dirty cages, and generally terrible conditions.
Just a thought. Or three.
Jay G.
Michael C Dunn
: mga...@panix.com (Mark Garvin) wrote:
I won't quote everything again :).
: Is it possible for someone to set up an interactive homepage, like
: Trendy the Iguana's, so that anyone could type in an entry? Then
I'd jbe happy to set something like this up on my page, the
problem is I dont have a clue how to :). I'll look around and see what
I can do.
: If we had a serious page (no offense, Trendy) with a serious header,
: any of us could check in to see where not to shop. Comments could be
: added, but we'd have to find a way to prevent 8 million "I agree!"
: messages from appearing.
I figured that we could organize the pet shops by state, and add
append shops to the list. To prevent the 'I agree!' syndrome, we might
have a spiffy 'I Agree!' button that increments a counter on each shop.
The other point I'd like to make is do we want to limit this to just
herps?? In my opinion, I think we should invite people form other groups
(say the rec.pets.* hirearchy) to contribute their comments. I know for
a fact that herps are not the only mistreated pets out there. Besides
some of the groups like alt.aquaria are just as fanatic as us herpers
.... we could, in effect, 'advertize' on the other groups so they could
consult the list on which pet shops to avoid, and possibly contribute
their horror stories.
: On the positive side, a page with _recommended_ petshops would be of
: equal value.
Agreed, I think the really good ones deserve a plug.
I've got a few shops to contribute to _both_ lists.
--
VVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVV
#include <standard.disclaimer>
#include <your.favorite.profanity>
#include <Linux.1.2.8>
#include <XFree86.3.1.1>
-Linux, choice of a GNU generation.
-This is your computer on DOS ...
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Mike dunn
dif...@computek.net
dunn...@utdallas.edu
Check me out at http://wwwpub.utdallas.edu/~dunn4614
Pamela Gay
Kingdom On Telegraph Rd N. Of Southgate, MI. It had German Shepards
small kenells, 3 cats in a rabbit cage, and several litters of animals
on the floor in kennels with their poop all around them. They were
feeding their igunas broccili, had a baby monitor labled as a prehensile
tailed skink, and were just dusty dirty nasty. Nothing dead, but a lot
very close.
The next day I called the Human Society, the Society for provention of
Cruelty to animals, and the Michigan Departemtn of Fisheries and
Wildlife. The most usefull person I talked to was the man at the
department of Fish and Wildlife. He had actually researved several
complaints and because of it was in the process of filing paper work to
close the store down and charge the owners with abuse/cruelty. On my
assesment of the reptiles he decided to go in and take (theres a legal
word I don't remember) all the reptiles out of the store. I don't know
if other states have similar state organazations, but if they do, I'd
recommend trying them at the same time you call the Human Society. The
Human Society can only lecture, and yell, but the state can close down
these horrible places.
Pamela Gay 2192...@msu.edu
Detrickm
From: PETHOST3
Unfortunately, pet stores (and wholesalers, who are often not any better
and may be a great deal worse) won't change until they are forced to
change. And that won't happen until city and county animal regulatory
agencies stop shrugging their shoulders and ignoring the conditions in
which reptiles and amphibs are kept.
I have repeatedly filed detailed complaints in writing, followed up
with conversations in person and by phone, with the agencies around here.
I went in and looked at a store 1 hour after two officers (the local
police department has primary jurisdiction...after my phone call to them
during which I was quite persistent, the chief of police authorized the PD
to request the services of the local humane society, so the store was also
inspected by a state humane officer) did - he said enclosures and water
bowls were fine - they were not. The bowls were filled with scum, or
feces, and clearly hadn't been changed in weeks. The glass enclosures
were smeared with feces and blood. Animals were emaciated, dehydrated and
lying in feces from previous cage occupants. The water turtles didn't
have enough water in which to swim or eat. The humane officer, who saw
the same things I did, stated that he found 'no significant violations.'
I flat out asked him: does it take every animal being dead for it to be a
significant violation? He hemmed and hawed and basically said yes.
Despite reptiles being a multimillion dollar business in the US, the
Pet Industry Joint Advisory Council also does nothing (oh, yea, it has a
course for pet store owners...how many do you think a) go and b) follow
their recommendations?).
State fish and game depts don't care unless they native animals
involved, and the fed Fish and Wildlife doesn't care once the exotics
clear customs.
I even tried the health depts - city, county and state - they don't
care unless there is proof that people have gotten sick from handling the
stores animals...
So, folks, if you want to see change, you have to put the pressure on
yourselves and keep it on. AFH has done nothing in this area; I sent them
a request for info/assistance a year ago and got nothing.
Read my "What a way to spend the day" article in the library...this
store owner got what animals survived back by the following week. Do you
think conditions have improved much? Think again.
Sorry, but this situation is extremely frustrating for me - people come
to me with complaints about stores all the time, expecting me to take
action and get things done...and rarely do they file a complaint
themselves, even tho I make it real clear that there needs to be as many
complaints as possible to hope to even get stores fined... And these are
stores which are clearly in violation of the penal code section which
specifically addresses the responsibilities of pet store owners!!!!!
Melissa458
Detrickm
From: JeremyXXXX
I have been pretty succesfull in changing the way my local pet store care
for thier iguanas. I simply right a letter identifying myself as a
valueable customer since I shop the stores a couple times a week. I
simply identify the things they are doing wrong. Followed by metioning
that being inhumane to animals isn't a reputation a pet stores wants too
have. Then I say if the problems aren't corrected myself and many others
will no longer shop your store. I also include a copy of Ig care and
socialization by Melissa.
It is very rewarding to return to the store and see a new set up for the
igs and to see mellisas salad on the menu.
I sent these letters to three local pet stores. Two of them made imediate
changes and the other went out of bussiness probably even before my letter
arrived.
I think everyone should try doing this!!!!
Detrickm
From: Detrickm
I have to comment on this posting for Iguana care in the pet stores.
My girlfriend and I go into the pet stores on a regular basis to check out
the igs. The conditions are absolutely atrocious. I will mention the
stores in question:
Prehistoric Pets
PETS PETS PETS
Prehistoric Pets being the worst. They have small confines with way too
many igs in each one. Some igs are dead on the floor of the cage. Feces
just about out number the subtrate. They are all emaciated. Many have
lost tails and noses beated down to the bone. They all have mites. They
are kept cold so that they do not run when being looked at by the
customers. This makes the customers believe it is a good ig and the one
to buy. No water in the cages either. It is very upsetting to say the
least. The more expensive animals get better living conditions, I guess
because they are more of an investment. The attitude seems to be "a few
dead igs at the bottom of the cage is no big deal".
PETS PETS PETS is a case of just not knowing what they are doing. We were
in there this weekend and there was a dead ig in the enclosure. We took
home one other ig from there that looked like death and tried to nurse it
back to health but we could not save it. There are crickets walking
around in their cage as if they were going to eat them. And again
completely unsanitary. They are better because they do not overcrowd the
cages. There is water. Again, under heated.
We have purchased 3 igs from PetMetro who does a good job at keeping igs
for sale. I commend them. Their service sucks, though. Their enclosures
are nice and warm. They have climbing space and hiding space. Water and
food. They try to eraticate the mites - but yet to be successful. They
look healthy and are active. Bravo!!! Also they sell igs that are made
in the USA!!! Another plus in my book.
If there was some way to shut these places down that treat animals as if
they were NOT living entities, I would be right up front.
These are only a few of the many pet stores we have been to. The other
tend to be on the bad side, but not as bad. Russo's Pets in Costa Mesa
has a 10 yr. old ig that walks free in the store. A real baby doll a
total love. It helps sell igs. However, I think it misleads people.
They do not know how much work it takes to get a 4" SVL to a 10 lbs. cat
size iguana! In addition, (not talking about Russo's) most pet store
employees do not have the faintest idea what they are talking about
relating to iguanas. Beware!!!
I would like to hear more comments on the pet store experiences.
Detrickm
Detrickm
below. It is too soon for a response. I will keep you posted.
I would like to see a large coalition come from this interest and I
certainly want to be a part of it. A dedicated homepage would be great.
"The Internet Coalition for Humane Pet Stores" To develop an e-mail list
for updates or other things would be great. I am not sure if money can be
raised, but if it can - If a store does not comply, this group can put an
ad in the paper against the store and this would give us more clout.
Obvious guidelines would have to be made to prevent renegade acts because,
after all, this is real serious!
Let there be no mistakes! If we are really serious, we better be ready to
walk the talk otherwise we are wasting our time. A group should be
organized.
The letter I sent:
July 6, 1995
PreHistoric Pets
18918 Brookhurst
Fountain Valley, CA 92708-7306
Dear Owners of Prehistoric Pets,
I am an Iguana hobbyist, spending much of my free time learning about,
taking care of, writing about and looking for iguanas. I should be a
valued customer of yours considering the money spent at your store.
I find your store fascinating and most of the animals well cared for.
However, this is not the case for the iguanas. The iguanas are being kept
in atrocious conditions. Let me explain. The following conditions are
substandard to the well being of the iguanas:
1. Overcrowded enclosures resulting in emaciation, among other things.
2. Dead iguanas in the enclosures
3. Lack of water
4. Lack of proper food resulting in emaciation
5. Mites
6. Excessive Feces and unsanitary conditions
7. Lack of proper heat or basking space
8. Lack of proper knowledge from the staff
Could you please change these conditions immediately. Here are some
suggestions:
1. Use more enclosures or stock less iguanas to reduce overcrowding. 5 to
10 iguanas per enclosure. I have been in your store on more than one
occasion having witnessed fights. This occurs with the older igs in the
room enclosures.
2. If an iguana happens to die or on the verge of dying, remove it from
the confines. If possible nurse the sick back to health.
3. Give them clean water. Anytime an iguana poops in the water it must be
replaced otherwise the spread of disease occurs. Some type of system can
be worked out to keep the water clean.
4. Included in this letter are documents named:
The Complete Guide to Feeding Green Iguanas in Captivity
The Care, Feeding and Socialization of the Green Iguana
These documents are the latest up-to-date medical knowledge concerning
the green iguana's diet. They will explain what the "salad" is. This is
the proper diet for an iguana as explained in the documents. Please feed
the iguanas this and instruct the employees to tell the customers about
the "salad". Maybe the least money is made on igs, but a high volume of
igs pass through your stores and the customers need to be instructed in
the proper diet so the igs can live long and comfortably. Please feed
them large enough amounts so that no iguana goes hungry. All your young
Igs look emaciated. I took one home recently and it fatten up once I gave
it the proper diet.
5. Mites are a continual and difficult problem for imported iguanas.
Please try some of the recommended procedures for eradication.
6. The substrate needs to be replaced more often and the larger rooms need
to be cleaned out more often. The conditions are very unsanitary and a
big turn off to people. People do not want to buy dirty animals.
7. Compared to other stores your iguanas seem to be cold due to lack of
proper basking areas. Only a small bulb in one corner of the enclosure
will not due for as many iguanas as you have been keeping in the
enclosure. Reducing the number of igs in an enclosure will help. In
addition, all enclosures with iguanas should have a vita-light in it.
8. If the staff reads and understands the documents enclosed, they will be
knowledgeable enough to give helpful advise and act as consultants, which
most people look for in a store such as yours. I will enclose a couple
other documents too. Toxic Plants, Lighting, & Eradication of Reptile
Mites.
This should be of concern for you. There are a lot of Orange County
people concerned about this store as it was mentioned on America on Line
as treating iguanas poorly especially compared to PetMetro who does a good
job with their iguanas.
We will be watching for the changes within the next month or two. After
which, if no change occurs, myself and the subscribers of AOL and the
Internet NewsGroup (quite a large group) will act to educate prospective
customers. These tactics have been successful else where in the country.
We would rather work together and build a humane reputation for your store
and abolish the inhumane reputation it currently has. It is the
responsibility of the proprietors of such shops to treat the animals
humanely with the greatest concern for their health and well being.
If there are any questions please call ( ) xxx-xxxx
Sincerely,
_________________________
Mark S. Detrick
Please feel free to use this letter as a template to try to encourage
other stores to change their ways. If you have any suggestions as to how
I can improve my letter e-mail me at Detr...@aol.com
Bryan Mohr
>jay gitomer (jgit...@clubfed.sgi.com) wrote:
>: mga...@panix.com (Mark Garvin) wrote:
>: Is it possible for someone to set up an interactive homepage, like
>: Trendy the Iguana's, so that anyone could type in an entry? Then
> I'd jbe happy to set something like this up on my page, the
>problem is I dont have a clue how to :). I'll look around and see what
>I can do.
This is a great idea! If you can't do it, let me know and I'd be more
than happy to do it. And I won't even make it Netscape specific. <g>
Bryan Mohr
Independent Account 2181
: The first resource, of course, should be the humane society, but I
: believe you when you indicate that they are overloaded and probably
: somewhat jaded.
I agree that something definately should be done about Some of
these shops. When I was at visited Strictly Reptiles, they had ornate box
turtles stacked 5-6 animals deep in a bin that must have contained
400-500 animals.
Remember many humane societies don't want anyone to own any
exotic pets. A couple of years ago in Fla. they backed legislation that
would have required exotic owners to have permit for EACH exotic animal
they owned. The permit cost around $125 and had to be renewed yearly.
When you're looking for allies, make sure they're not going to stab you
in the back later.
George
John Varney
RE: Horrible Dealers.
The reptile entheusiast, by virtue of being the end consumer, has
the MOST power in these situations. If you find a dealer, or breeder,
that does not take care of his/her animals, and makes the hobby look
bad, then make SURE that you don't buy from them. Spread the word
around. Ask people that you are buying animals from if they are
supplied by said dealer or breeder, and if so, tell the owner WHY
you won't buy that animal.
They are in business, so hit them where it hurts. Also, buy
captive bred over wild caught, reguardless of the 20 or 30 dollar
difference. That is the only way that this kind of thing will be
the exception, not the rule.
Detrickm
From: ky...@csli.stanford.edu (The late Kyle Wohlmut)
Date: 7 Jul 1995 14:01:41 -0700
Message-ID: <3tk7bl$g...@Csli.Stanford.EDU>
What the ^&(*%^#!$#!!... for some reason my newsreader suddenly won't
show me the original thread on this topic... well anyway, I did want
to add one concern about putting up a Web Page devoted to decrying
horrible pet shops and/or dealers... in principle this is a great
idea, however, there are some issues that I've seen raised in a
similar thread on another newsgroup ('Internet Deadbeat List' on
rec.music.makers.marketplace); this does present only one side of the
story, so there is a lot of potential for a more or less honest dealer
to lose a lot of business over one isolated incident or one
unsatisfied customer. Secondly, what happens if after the management
of an establishment is made aware of poor conditions, they do clean up
their act and remedy the situation-- I imagine the entry on the web
page would probably hang around for a long time, if not forever, and
continue to drive business away from a reformed dealer. Lastly, by
using a fill-out form, this of course allows -anyone- to post horror
stories-- whether true or not! I can imagine that someone might be
upset about getting short-changed at the store might post a fabricated
horror-story out of spite, or even worse, a competitor might make up a
horror story to garner more business for him/herself... just something
to think about...
Comments welcome...
/^\^/^\^/^\^ http://www-csli.stanford.edu/users/kyle/ ^\^/^\^/^\^/^\
Kyle Wohlmut -- The 4.15 Stanford Executive -- Heute brau ich, morgen
back ich, uebermorgen hol ich mir der Koenigin ihr Kind. Ach, wie gut
dass niemand weiss das ich ky...@csli.stanford.edu heiss --
\^/^\^/^\^/^\^/^\^/^\^/^\^/^\^/^\^/^\^/^\^/^\^/^\^/^\^/^\^/^\^/^\^/^\^/
Detrickm
Melissa Kaplan
Well, it started out being a nice day. The usual morning gray, cold
overcast was absent, replaced by clear blue sky and warm sunny air. The
perfect day to go for a ride through the rolling hills, orchards and
vineyards of northern Sonoma and Mendocino counties. A stop along the way
at a farm for fresh lemon cucumbers, blackberries, pesto and grape leaves
(for the iguanas) provided an excuse to get out and stretch a bit.
Our destination was Willits, California, a small town in Mendocino county.
(Specifically, our destination was a rubber stamp store in Willits, but
that is an altogether different story.) After our visit there, we stopped
at East Hill Veterinary Clinic and met NBHS member Dr. Frank Grasse (neat
clinic, friendly staff, killer view). On our way out of town around 3
p.m., we decided to grab a bite and visit the local pet store. Bad move.
Didn't get to eat until 9 p.m.
The store is "We Be Pets and Things". Most of the animals that weren't
dead were well on their way to dying. We have seen some bad stores in our
travels and have worked to get conditions improved in such places. This
store wasn't merely bad--it was a charnel house.
Upon walking in, we were first struck by the darkness - there was not a
single light on in the store. Next, we were hit by the stench of feces,
rotting foods, scummy, murky water (in those enclosures that actually
*had* water). Most of the reptiles looked dead; all were emaciated and
dehydrated.
We found that the person in the store was not only not the owner, she
wasn't even an employee. The owner, a friend, asked her to "mind" the
store while she took off suddenly for "a week or so." The owner left no
money for food or supplies for the animals, nor instructions on how to
care for the animals. The woman minding the store was able to buy some
crickets and a few other things after she sold some supplies to customers.
She also had been pulling out dead animals for the two days she had been
there. Dead animals, however, weren't the only problem. The conditions
in which the animals were kept was the problem. A brief overview of what
we found follows.
No heat nor full-spectrum lighting was provided for any of the reptiles
which included several iguanas, water dragons, anoles, savannah monitors,
Burmese pythons (including a 12' Burmese in the filthy bathroom on the
concrete slab floor) and tokay geckos.
The "Greek turtles" were in fact Greek and Sulcata tortoises. They were
being kept in an aquatic tank partially filled with filthy water. One
tortoise was dead and had obviously been so for quite a while. There was
no heat, no light, no filter, and dead goldfish floating in the water.
The owner had previously told her friend that turtles eat only dead fish.
The 4"-5" svl Reeve's and red-eared sliders were kept in another tank with
1.5-2" of water so dirty you could not see through it. The only things
you could see were pieces of dead fish and rotting vegetables that were
wedged up against the glass. No heat, no light, no filter. Upon later
inspection, most of the turtles were found to have shell rot; all have
open sores on their "elbows" from rubbing against the glass and one rock
in the tank.
The 6" svl iguanas were so dehydrated, emaciated and weak that they didn't
flinch or make any other movements to dissuade the dozens of huge house
flies walking over their bodies, faces and eyes. All had open sores just
above their feces-streaked vents. All had ticks. One had an (admittedly)
old healed wound; it had at one point engaged in so much rostral rubbing
that its rostrum is gone on one side, resulting in exposed teeth and
deformed nostrils. There was no heat, no light, a bowl of filthy water
and rotting food which, strewn throughout the filthy enclosure, included a
whole apple in the back of the store.
The water dragons had a small bowl of water so filthy you could not see
the bottom. All had exposed teeth from rostral rubbing. No heat, no
light.
The tokays were so thin and weak that when one of them bit me, it did not
even break my skin. Their tails are so thin they look like skinny rat
tails. No heat, no light.
The Knight anole is dead; it just hasn't figured it out yet.
The owner left instructions for her friend to "open the door and burn
incense in the morning to get rid of the smell." Trust me, it didn't
work.
In all fairness, it was not just the reptiles, fish and tarantulas who
were suffering; rabbits, mice and rats were in cages so filthy that they
could not even get to their (empty) water bottles). The urine in one area
of a large bank of wooden enclosures had saturated the wood front of the
tanks and stained the store flooring. The feces were so thickly encrusted
on the bottom of one tank that a hammer was required to loosen it. All
rodents and rabbits were all being maintained on cedar shavings, as were
the reptiles who weren't being kept in filthy dirt and soggy moss or, as
with the ticky and fly-bitten iguanas, no substrate at all except the
carpet of rotting plant matter.
Resisting the temptation to grab the animals and run, we elected instead
to call Animal Control. Having never been confronted with such a
situation before, it took them a bit to figure out how to proceed. Senior
Animal Control Officer Julie McCullough came out about 5 p.m. Together,
we worked to sort out which animals could be stabilized until the
following day (which required, among other things, opening up what little
store stock there was to get red light bulbs for heat and substrate). A
couple of the animals were going to be taken home by the friend and
provided heat, water and food there. As we lived out of county, A.C.
could not let us take any of the worse off animals.
We also set to work to try to get some of the enclosures cleaned out
enough to get by; this was rather difficult as there is no hot water and
no cleaning supplies anywhere in the store. The animal control officer
had a pair of heavy duty rubber gloves which she used to collect the dead
animals. (When she left after completing all the paperwork, we flagged
her down as she had left her gloves behind. She said they were so filthy
she didn't want them anymore, suggesting that if we wanted to burn them it
would be quite all right with her.) I carry small bottles of Nolvasan and
Betadine with me in my first aid kit and so we were able to (hopefully)
destroy some of the organisms we could practically feel crawling all over
our hands and arms.
*So, what's the point here?*
I am often accused of "slamming" pet stores or of wanting to put them out
of business. This is not the case. Since there are pets out there, there
is a great need for proper supplies for these animals. Seeing stores like
this one, however, brings out the animal rights activist in me, starting
me to grumbling about how the pet trade should be abolished, period.
At heart, though, I am a welfarist, feeling obligated to not only assure
that my own animals have the best possible care, but to work on helping
others come to the same decision and to learn how to do it properly. If a
store owner is unable to provide for animals in general, or for specific
classes of animals, then they should not carry those animals; there is
still a great deal of money to be made selling supplies and equipment, or
sticking just to mammals, birds or fish if that is what they do well.
The problem arises with a store that is not as bad as _We Be Pets and
Things_, but which is still falling down in their care of some or all of
their animals. Too few people will talk to the store owner and fewer
still will actually go through the trouble of tracking down the animal
regulatory agency with jurisdiction over that store to file a complaint.
When such agencies get only a few sporadic complaints they tend to write
them off especially when the responding officer doesn't know that much
about the particular types of animals and the care they require to begin
with. At "We Be Pets... it was easy: while animal control officer
admittedly knew nothing about reptiles, the smell of the water almost
knocked her off the stool she was standing on and the bag full of dead
animals was a good indicator that something was grossly amiss.
For the most part, however, these agencies are reluctant to go as far as
they could go without getting a statement from someone with letters after
their name, letters such as DVM or even Ph.D. There is a reluctance to
put much credence in "mere" citizens. This has a tendency to put citizens
off--if no one is going to listen to them, pursue the matter and take
appropriate action, there seems to be no point to file a complaint.
The Pet Industry Joint Advisory Council is now offering "certification"
workshops on reptiles for store owners. The problem, of course, is that
the information isn't getting out there fast enough and store owners who
are determinedly mediocre or worse aren't going to pay the not-inexpensive
costs associated with attending a national trade show to take these
not-inexpensive classes.
Wholesalers and dealers don't much care who they sell what to, and there
is no other regulatory body to oversee or take action. State wildlife
agencies only get involved if protected species are being kept and sold
improperly or illegally; they do not get involved in care issues. The
federal agencies have no jurisdiction over protected species once they
have cleared customs.
How many animals must die, in the store or within days, weeks or months of
being purchased, before the store is considered to be a problem? Why are
more voices raised when it is cats, dogs, rabbits and other "cute"
critters--even fish--who are being ill cared for than for reptiles,
amphibians and arthropods? What is left for us to do?
File a complaint. Get other customers to file complaints. Keep filing
complaints until something is done. Be calm, be focused, but do it. Be
prepared to quote or provide source material if necessary, especially
articles and information published in herpetological and veterinary
journals and books.
Some people are reluctant to offend an offensive store owner feeling that
that store is the only place around to get supplies. Well, everything
from prey to lights to tanks to equipment to furnishings can be bought
from mail order companies and delivered right to your door. Boycott these
stores, and get others to boycott. Spread the word. A store owner might
find it cheaper to barely provide for the animals figuring that once they
are sold they are no longer his or her concern, but if no one was buying
anything, the economic situation may convince the owner that there are
other ways to make money in the pet trade--or other industries.
It is unfortunate that many vets do not want to become involved. There
are many reasons for this reluctance; many of them understandable at some
level but difficult for many of us to fathom when our primary concern is
for the animals' welfare. There are some vets who will take the time off
from their practice to go into stores at the request of the local animal
regulatory agency to assess the situation in the agency's handling of a
complaint. But as many vets know more about the medical aspects of care
rather than housing and maintenance, their input may be unhelpful or
contradictory to that provided by knowledgeable complainants. When
assessing what action to take, the animal agency and District Attorney
lean towards the position of the person with the letters after their name,
not there "mere" letterless citizens who may have decades of experience
backing them up.
The California Penal Code is, to my mind, pretty explicit. Section 597(b)
states that "every person who...deprives of necessary sustenance, drink
or shelter...or causes or procures any animal to be so...deprived of
necessary sustenance, drink shelter...and whoever, having the charge or
custody of any animal, either as owner or otherwise, subjects any animal
to needless suffering, or inflicts unnecessary cruelty upon the animal, or
in any manner abuses the animal or fails to provide the animal with proper
food, drink, or shelter...is, for every such offense, guilty of a crime
punishable as a...misdemeanor or felony..."
Detrickm
From: Mark....@mail.tju.edu
Date: Fri, 07 Jul 95 18:29:56 EDT
Message-ID: <173D41042...@TJUVM.TJU.EDU>
We live in interesting times.
The shops and distributors that are alleged to be the worst offenders
of reptile care during holding and distribution are the ones with the
lowest prices and largest customer base.
Shops and distributors with more employees and better facilities need to
charge a bit more (rightly so) for their cleaner and healthier animals.
Perhaps we need to ensure the survival of the better shops by directing
our purchases their way, and sending our friends to shops that we like.
And NOT judging animals solely on the "lowest price=best animal" axiom.
The low-price shoppers are the single biggest reason that slip-shod
reptile
businesses exist.
Going after businesses that we don't like is not nearly as productive as
promoting those that we do like.
Regards,
Mark Miller FAX: 215-464-3561
Mark....@mail.tju.edu CIS: 70176, 1153
Herpetology Online Network (SysOp) --> BBS: 215-698-1905
Mark Garvin
....
(note to Brian Mohr: please reply on the news group)
>>jay gitomer (jgit...@clubfed.sgi.com) wrote:
>>: Is it possible for someone to set up an interactive homepage, like
>>: Trendy the Iguana's, so that anyone could type in an entry? Then
>dunn...@utdallas.edu (Michael C Dunn) wrote:
>> I'd jbe happy to set something like this up on my page, the
>>problem is I dont have a clue how to :). I'll look around and see what
>>I can do.
In <3tk66a$5...@news1.best.com> wa...@best.com (Bryan Mohr) writes:
>This is a great idea! If you can't do it, let me know and I'd be more
>than happy to do it. And I won't even make it Netscape specific. <g>
Great! This looks like a start. My suggestion is to take a look
at the way that Senator Leahy's 'signature gathering' page was
set up when Sen Exon was threatening censorship of the Internet.
Leahy was able to present pages of 'signed' petitions, though
the signing was done via Internet of course.
Judging by the reaction here, it looks like we should be able
to put a significant number of signatures to any doc that we
would like to send to local authorities.
Politicians look at numbers very seriously. So will pet stores.
Unfortunately, I don't think that Leahy's page would be up any
more. Has anyone seen it?
I see this as a few different steps:
1. Design the general layout for the system.
2. Write the html code for the 'petition/complaint' page.
3. Test it
4. Find a suitable home that will serve as a long-term base.
5. Provide links from all other Iguana and pet resources.
6. Gather, correlate and make the data public.
7. Get authorities involved in follow-up
It occurs to me that this should really be a generalized
pet-store/pet-distributor complaint system, rather than being
specific to iguanas.
CAN YOU IMAGINE THE NUMBER OF LINKS POSSIBLE? This should be
kept in mind when the page is brought up.
By the way, Leahy's page had a simple 'I Agree' box. I don't
know if we need individual 'me too' boxes for each offender,
because that would entail having the list dynamically expand
and contract. The bad-guy list could end up extremely long.
This system could work to generate a large number of total
signatures. Not sure how much daily traffic this would be.
Probably not a huge amount.
If this works out, consider that the same page or type of
page could also work as a reference system for vets.
It would be great to do this now as the Net is expanding.
The power of the net should be put to use here. One thing
that should not be overlooked, in case it was missed, is the
most recent thread on UVB, which to my mind definitely
concludes the whole UVB controversy.
So, if there is power in numbers, let's see what we can do.
Note that I've changed the thread name to say 'pet stores'.
So let's talk about what should be on the page.
Seems we need:
1. A way to enter a bad pet store and location and possible 'grade'
2. A way to enter a good pet store and location and poss 'grade'
3. A way to 'sign the petition'
4. Possibly, a way to access the data on-line?
Q: will #4 be too time-intensive? Maybe just make the
list downloadable?
What needs to be added or clarified?
Should we crosspost this message or thread, in part, to any other
pet groups yet? Or wait until things are more clear?
Regards,
Mark Garvin
Mark Garvin
>I have written a letter to the biggest offender of life. It is attached
>below. It is too soon for a response. I will keep you posted.
>I would like to see a large coalition come from this interest and I
>certainly want to be a part of it. A dedicated homepage would be great.
>"The Internet Coalition for Humane Pet Stores" To develop an e-mail list
>for updates or other things would be great. I am not sure if money can be
>raised, but if it can - If a store does not comply, this group can put an
>ad in the paper against the store and this would give us more clout.
I had never thought of that. You're correct that the ad would have
significant impact. You know, after a couple thoroughly researched
major offenders got some publicity, we would have a serious point of
leverage to offer other stores.
>Obvious guidelines would have to be made to prevent renegade acts because,
>after all, this is real serious!
The first time a pet owner sees something like this, yes, it stays
with you. After seeing one store, I couldn't avoid the recurring
mental image of all the poor little iguanas that have no way of telling
anyone that they are starving. The image is still somehow bound in
my mind to footage I saw of Auschwitz and the images of people being
starved to death. I'm not intentionally overdramatizing and I don't
mean to equate seriousness of the two. I just see the images juxtaposed
somehow.
>Let there be no mistakes! If we are really serious, we better be ready to
>walk the talk otherwise we are wasting our time. A group should be
>organized.
Obviously some of us have money to contribute, others dont. Let's try
to figure out if there will be significant expense, or maybe just
time.
>The letter I sent:
[Very good letter deleted]
I suggest that we use this as a template to work up an
effective letter that the group could use for preliminary
'influence' with pet stores.
Mark Garvin
Mark Garvin
>certainly want to be a part of it. A dedicated homepage would be great.
>"The Internet Coalition for Humane Pet Stores" To develop an e-mail list
I read this again and realized that we should try to sign up people
for 'membership' to get this started. This is better accomplished
via individual Email. I guess I'll have to be 'it', since I can't
volunteer anyone else for this. <g>.... This will be short-term,
I trust.
I already 'know' some of you, so I don't know if I need to emphasize
this, but I will not use any email addresses in any way not agreed on
here. If you sign up, *do* expect to lend support in some small way
if called upon. As Mr Detrick said, we should 'walk-the-walk'...
So here is what to do if you want to become part of the effort.
KEEP THIS TO ONE OR TWO LINES, PLEASE! Don't flood my email Ok?<G>
Simply send your name and your email addr, on one line, preferrably
all the way to the left side of the line, so I can capture them into
a file.
Like so:
====================== start email ================================
Mark Garvin mga...@panix.com
======================= end email =================================
Send to: mga...@panix.com
I will only be doing this short-term, I trust.
If you want to drop a note of support, do that here, on the News
group. It'll help if people see support mounting.
PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE, don't quote this entire message just
to drop me your name.
Also, I liked MD's name: >"The Internet Coalition for Humane Pet Stores",
but how about something a bit more agressive? Like:
"The Internet Coalition Against Inhumane Pet Stores". Maybe more of
an attention-getter. Any problem using the name 'Internet' in the title?
On the other hand, something in the middle might be better if we
are trying to get stores to hand out our care-sheets or whatever.
(Yeah I'm still trying to condense my version to two pages...)
OK, let me hear from you. I will not put your name on the list
just because you are on this thread. I'd rather not take that
liberty. After I gather some names, then I can post the list here
or ...whatever. At least we'll know how many people will follow
thru with this.
Oh, yeah...keep the same title above, so I can sort these out, OK?
Feel free to repost this to gather support, but emphasize:
SHORT EMAIL MESSAGE
Regards,
Mark Garvin
mga...@panix.com
Mark Garvin
good and bad about pet stores' treatment of their animals.
If you have read thru the threads, and want to help, I have
volunteered to try to compile a list of those interested.
No, I won't send you any junk mail <g>
Send name and email address like so:
Mark Garvin mga...@panix.com
Keep it simple, OK? I'm trying to just collect names of those
interested.
Send to mga...@panix.com
Kirk Gewlas
In article <3tht4v$m...@ddi2.digital.net> David A. Millar wrote:
> . It would be interesting to see the "back
>area" at Crutchfield's or Glades to see if they're any different.
>
> Mark
>
with Bill and Rob for a number of years. The staff at Glades Herp take a lot of time to make sure the
herps they sell are high quality. A large percent of their stock is captive bred ( by themselves),
everything is checked out by a vet, that comes to the shop. I have seen the back area, even when
they were at their previous location, and it is well taken care of. I, personally have never seen a dead
animal in any of there cages.
Gulf Coast Reptiles..... that's another story, nuff said
Better to be a player for a moment, than
a spectator for life,
--=-kirk-=-
Snakemaker
wholesalers here so far. That's why I don't buy imports anymore. This
includes so called " captive born " animals that are " farmed " in other
countries.
Tien-Yee Chiu
>My girlfriend and I go into the pet stores on a regular basis to check out
>the igs. The conditions are absolutely atrocious. I will mention the
>stores in question:
>Prehistoric Pets
I should add that the Fountain Valley Prehistoric Pets always seems to have
mites crawling over the snakes in huge numbers, and I have seen a few snakes
with bad cases of mouth rot (to do them justice, some were not for sale
because of this). The owner seems to make life hell for the employees--
last time we were in there he was screaming at one about stealing from
him because she had forgotten to add sales tax. The Chino store is
somewhat better but usually has mites. (Mme. Escher came from their
Chino store with a really bad case of mites.) It is a real pity because
the Prehistoric Pets in Fountain Valley usuall has the best assortment
of reptiles I've seen in a retail store--but considering the conditions
they keep their animals under and the way they treat their employees, I'm
not about to buy from them. I told the owner that as I walked out the
last time.
>We have purchased 3 igs from PetMetro who does a good job at keeping igs
>for sale. I commend them.
Pet Metro is OK, if not overly clueful. The chameleon enclosures have no
ventilation whatsoever beyond a small hole in the top of the glass/rock
enclosure. The employees are aware of this but say there's nothing they
can do since it's a decision from management and sales. I have seen some
mites there, but they're much better than most places and have a vet on
staff. I just wish they'd actually USE him for fecal exams before their
chameleons come down with serious parasite problems, which I've seen on
occasion. Otherwise their animals seem fairly well housed.
Pet Barn in South Pasadena, CA is where I buy most of my supplies. The
head of their reptile department, Mark, is an experienced herper
and the animal enclosures are kept clean. I've generally been impressed
by his/their knowledge. They also sponsor reptile clinics once a month.
They do have mites on occasion, but they quickly disappear. One of the
few herp stores that I have NOT found depressing to be in. Their animals
seem to be better housed/displayed than at most breeders'. VERY impressed.
By and large, their employees seem to be much more clueful than Pet Metro's.
I spend about $200/month there, and make darned sure they know why!
Tien Chiu
ch...@ugcs.caltech.edu
Mark Garvin
>WHAT A WAY TO SPEND THE DAY
>Melissa Kaplan
>
>The store is "We Be Pets and Things". Most of the animals that weren't
>dead were well on their way to dying. We have seen some bad stores in our
>travels and have worked to get conditions improved in such places. This
>store wasn't merely bad--it was a charnel house.
>
> [long description of stomach-turning attrocities, unfortunately deleted]
>
>... had a small bowl of water so filthy you could not see
>the bottom. All had exposed teeth from rostral rubbing. No heat, no
>light.
God! I hate hearing stuff like this. After seeing my first horrifying
glimpse at one of those heartless inhuman pet stores, this really
creates a vivid picture. Best to try to stay objective, I guess.
I applaud your efforts, Melissa.
>MK:
>Resisting the temptation to grab the animals and run, we elected instead
>to call Animal Control. Having never been confronted with such a
>situation before, it took them a bit to figure out how to proceed. Senior
>Animal Control Officer Julie McCullough came out about 5 p.m. Together,
OK, is this the best first step? I think we need a list of resources.
I initially thought that the humane society was the first place to call.
Let's try to compile a list of state authorities and how/when to
contact them.
>MK:
>For the most part, however, these agencies are reluctant to go as far as
>they could go without getting a statement from someone with letters after
>their name, letters such as DVM or even Ph.D. There is a reluctance to
>put much credence in "mere" citizens. This has a tendency to put citizens
So then we need to get some consciencious vets and others to lend
a note of authority. Maybe we should compile a list of our concerns
and objectives and post to the vets group.
>MK:
>The Pet Industry Joint Advisory Council is now offering "certification"
>workshops on reptiles for store owners. The problem, of course, is that
>....
>is no other regulatory body to oversee or take action. State wildlife
>agencies only get involved if protected species are being kept and sold
>improperly or illegally; they do not get involved in care issues. The
>federal agencies have no jurisdiction over protected species once they
>have cleared customs.
>
>File a complaint. Get other customers to file complaints. Keep filing
>complaints until something is done. Be calm, be focused, but do it. Be
>prepared to quote or provide source material if necessary, especially
>articles and information published in herpetological and veterinary
>journals and books.
File complaints with...????
Even after consulting with the local Herp Society, I am unsure
about the best places to call.
What is the source material referred to here? Is it available?
>Some people are reluctant to offend an offensive store owner feeling that
>that store is the only place around to get supplies. Well, everything
>from prey to lights to tanks to equipment to furnishings can be bought
>from mail order companies and delivered right to your door. Boycott these
>stores, and get others to boycott. Spread the word. A store owner might
This is another good idea. It would be a shame to severely hurt
sales of legitimate stores who make much of their income on accessories,
but I guess we probably should compile a list of 800 numbers of sources
for pet supplies.
Here's a meager start:
Big Apple Herpetological Supply: 1-800-666-6672
That Fish Place: 1-800-733-3829 fax:1-800-786-3829
Note: 'That Fish Place' often doesn't seem to know exactly
what they carry (!!??) so be persistent. They *DO* have
most of the ZooMed stuff, including IguanaLights and
ceramic heaters, even if they say they haven't heard
of them.
Let me know (email mga...@panix.com) if you have other
vendors that you would recommend. I'll compile a short list
and post it. I've dealt with both with good results, except
the box and packing from 'Fish Place' smelled like fish <g>...
>contradictory to that provided by knowledgeable complainants. When
>assessing what action to take, the animal agency and District Attorney
>lean towards the position of the person with the letters after their name,
>not there "mere" letterless citizens who may have decades of experience
>backing them up.
>The California Penal Code is, to my mind, pretty explicit. Section 597(b)
> states that "every person who...deprives of necessary sustenance, drink
>or shelter...or causes or procures any animal to be so...deprived of
>necessary sustenance, drink shelter...and whoever, having the charge or
>custody of any animal, either as owner or otherwise, subjects any animal
>to needless suffering, or inflicts unnecessary cruelty upon the animal, or
>in any manner abuses the animal or fails to provide the animal with proper
>food, drink, or shelter...is, for every such offense, guilty of a crime
>punishable as a...misdemeanor or felony..."
I didn't want to delete this quote. Those in California may want to
consider including this paragraph in any letters sent to offending
pet stores. Seems like it would lend some weight.
Mark Garvin
mga...@panix.com
Michael C Dunn
: > I'd jbe happy to set something like this up on my page, the
: >problem is I dont have a clue how to :). I'll look around and see what
: >I can do.
: This is a great idea! If you can't do it, let me know and I'd be more
: than happy to do it. And I won't even make it Netscape specific. <g>
Well, I found out that my so-called 'Instution' will not allow me
to run CGI scripts, so I cannot build the web page :(. Anal retentive
sysadmin worried about security ... probably ought to be though, with a
thousand nerds running arround school trying to find ways to crash the
system :). Anyways, I notified Bryan Mohr (wa...@best.com) since he said
he would like to give it a shot. Just an update though.
One idea I had was to have people who check in on my web page to
mail me with some of their horror stories just to see if maybe there is
an audience out there (i.e. people who _don't_ read news groups).
Snakemaker
starts at the country of origin. This does not in any way justify the
treatment of them once they reach this country. Just remember that their
are many fingers in the pie.
Over the years I have had both good and bad dealings with wholesalers.
More bad than good. I've gotten to the point where I'm selling about 95%
captive bred and born in the U.S.A. I'm considering going 100%. But, if
everyone follows this where do we get new breeder animals?
Let me say that I am very pleased to see more awareness of this subject
as I have been talking about it for years. I hope we can find a solution
and I would be glad to be involved in anything that promotes captive
breeding and the ethical treatment of reptiles and their owners.
Michael C Dunn
: 1. Design the general layout for the system.
: 2. Write the html code for the 'petition/complaint' page.
: 3. Test it
: 4. Find a suitable home that will serve as a long-term base.
: 5. Provide links from all other Iguana and pet resources.
: 6. Gather, correlate and make the data public.
: 7. Get authorities involved in follow-up
: It occurs to me that this should really be a generalized
: pet-store/pet-distributor complaint system, rather than being
: specific to iguanas.
That is for sure. I think that you will find most of the people
in other pet related groups to be very fanatical about inhumane treatment
... maybe even about herps :).
: know if we need individual 'me too' boxes for each offender,
: because that would entail having the list dynamically expand
: and contract. The bad-guy list could end up extremely long.
I thought that a 'I Agree' box might work to simply incement a
number, saying 0043 People agree. You have probably see the ones like
you are the 23932th person to visit this page, right?? Something similar
to that.
: 1. A way to enter a bad pet store and location and possible 'grade'
: 2. A way to enter a good pet store and location and poss 'grade'
: 3. A way to 'sign the petition'
: 4. Possibly, a way to access the data on-line?
How about a simple one to five rating for different areas like
how clean the cage or water is, avaiable food, heating and such. I guess
the one to five could be follwed by a discriptive scale, say for water:
1.) Clean and plentiful.
2.) Somewhat soiled, but existent. (If this level exists).
3.) Badly soiled, and unusable.
4.) Nonexistent.
Ok, maybe one to four :) ... afterall, how much can you say about
water??
: Q: will #4 be too time-intensive? Maybe just make the
: list downloadable?
I think if the list is organized geographically, it will be
mangable. Not everybody is going to need or want to look through every
pet shop on the list. Most people are only going to be concerned with
shops in their home city or state. I think if it is organized good, the
list can be split up so that no one has through very much to find the
info they are seeking.
: What needs to be added or clarified?
: Should we crosspost this message or thread, in part, to any other
: pet groups yet? Or wait until things are more clear?
We _need_ to include as many other groups as possible, but not
just yet. I mean, look at the thread that exploded today, and imagine
that happing on all of the other groups, crossposted :). Not a pretty
sight, and right now there is nothing really solid. I say we wait at
leas until we are prepared to start gathering comments, and we have a
good protocol defined for how the list will operate.
Let's get behind this one and make it work!
Snakemaker
reptile shops. I'm afraid all bad publicity will turn newcomers off to
the subject completely. Email and I will give you directions. I am in N.
Wisconsin.
mattk
: We are planning to try to get a web site for providing references
: good and bad about pet stores' treatment of their animals.
How do you protect yourself from allegations of libel and lawsuits? It's not
like you're a newspaper or some such... I guess you'll have to be
anonymous about it... Oops! Too late!
Matt
--
I'd prefer a free |copyright 1995, ma...@summit.novell.com. All rights
bottle in front of |reserved. Permission for reproduction by USENET and like
me over a prefrontal|free facilities explicitly allowed. No other reproduction
lobotomy. |rights are granted or implied.
Mark Garvin
>Mark Garvin (mga...@panix.com) wrote:
>: We are planning to try to get a web site for providing references
>: good and bad about pet stores' treatment of their animals.
>How do you protect yourself from allegations of libel and lawsuits? It's not
>like you're a newspaper or some such... I guess you'll have to be
>anonymous about it... Oops! Too late!
Good question, and one that I've addressed in more detail in another
thread. Some have maintained that this sort of libel suit would be
entirely unenforceable. May even provide some free negative publi-
city for anyone making the claim.
But in that light, I've advocated making simple statements of fact.
Others including myself have done this publicly here. At the point
that I see someone torturing animals...well screw em! (Emphasis is
uncharacteristic of me, but totally intentional). Have you ever seen
a cage full of animals literally being starved to death?!!!!
Skeletons with skin stretched over them!
Let 'em come after me! That's one of the reasons we are trying to
get this off the ground. I'll put my 'John Hancock' on any report
that I turn in, and so will anyone else that files a report.
Melissa's 'libelous' <g> report on one of the pet stores should be
required reading for any pet owner.
And yes, we need some unofficial legal perspective here. How about
someone looking into this. I'll also make an effort, but see if you
can help!
Mark Garvin
Mark Garvin
>Mark Garvin (mga...@panix.com) wrote:
>: We are planning to try to get a web site for providing references
>: good and bad about pet stores' treatment of their animals.
>How do you protect yourself from allegations of libel and lawsuits? It's not
>like you're a newspaper or some such... I guess you'll have to be
>anonymous about it... Oops! Too late!
Nope. No anonymous posts. We are not leaving the website responsible
for this either. Some spine is required.
So is legal advise. Who can lend some perspective here, or steer us
in the right direction?
By the way, I advocate filing official reports with local authorities
before and negative report on a store or distributor.
Mark Garvin
The late Kyle Wohlmut
(although it seems this thread has gone beyond this already); in
response to my previous posting:
>Any time you remember
>to add one concern about putting up a Web Page devoted to decrying
>horrible pet shops and/or dealers... in principle this is a great
>idea, however, there are some issues that I've seen raised in a
>similar thread on another newsgroup ('Internet Deadbeat List' on
>rec.music.makers.marketplace); this does present only one side of the
>story, so there is a lot of potential for a more or less honest
dealer
>to lose a lot of business over one isolated incident or one
>unsatisfied customer.
I was considering this exact thing and considered posting a message
similar to yours. Here's why I didn't:
Most of the 'marketplace' deadbeat stuff relates to people who are
nervous about whether that check will clear and they start imagining
things. Happens all the time. If you've ever sold or bought anything
like that, you'll know what I mean. Paranoia always sets in.
This is also one of the reasons that I thought we should maintain
some kind of preliminary requirement.
We should make it a point to:
1. Contact the vendor directly and send the type of letter written
by M.Detrich (sp?). Seems to be effectively worded.
2. Report the store to the Humane Society or wherever.
I think this would serve as a very good pre-filter mechanism.
And it would avoid spiteful complaints to some degree.
>Secondly, what happens if after the management
>of an establishment is made aware of poor conditions, they do clean
up
>their act and remedy the situation-- I imagine the entry on the web
>page would probably hang around for a long time, if not forever, and
>continue to drive business away from a reformed dealer. Lastly, by
>From what I've seen, some of these places just deserve to go out
of business. But realistically, yes, there must be some way to
monitor this and remove the offender from the 'shit-list' <g>.
This should be part of the 'spec' for the web page. And how do
we make sure that the vendor can't just call in and erase their
own name from the list?
Very good concerns, but I have been reading the posts here with
this exact thing in mind. I saw one person who thought that one
of the original posts (re Strictly Reptiles) was in error, but
then another person seconded the initial complaint against SR.
So this kind of bolstered my faith that we can do this fairly.
Regards,
Mark Garvin
mga...@panix.com
jay gitomer
>
> Mark Garvin (mga...@panix.com) wrote:
> : We are planning to try to get a web site for providing references
> : good and bad about pet stores' treatment of their animals.
>
> How do you protect yourself from allegations of libel and lawsuits? It's not
> like you're a newspaper or some such... I guess you'll have to be
> anonymous about it... Oops! Too late!
I don't know if this would save anyone from a libel suit or not, but
to foster objectivity I suggest a very simple rating system.
A petstore has multiple enclosures.
Each enclosure starts off with 10 pts. A 10 is an enclosure that has
nothing notable wrong with it.
We use a standardized system of point deduction to arrive at a final
figure. See list below.
The standardized list would have to be as brief and simple as pos-
sible, hopefully short enough to memorize so that we could do the
ratings in our heads, for convenience.
After rating each tank in the store (or just the ones that you have
knowledge in, for instance I wouldn't be competent to rate snake or
turtle enclosures), figure out the average rating and that is the
final figure.
I suggest that before posting a petshop to the Bad List, that the
rph-er make a point of visiting the store at LEAST twice and averaging
that rating in as well. I believe 3 visits minimum would be better.
Please remember to visit at different times of the day, if at all pos-
sible. I know that if anyone showed up at my house on a Saturday a.m.
before the big weekend chores had been done, they would see dirty
tanks, and maybe some dried food from the day before, and maybe dirty
water from the night before. And if they only came on Sat a.m.'s,
they'd think I don't take care of my herps. I think three visits
should be mandatory, really, before posting. If there are extenuating
circumstances, such as you saw the store while vacationing, then a
post on rph requesting locals to return in lieu of you and add their
ratings to yours, would be the responsible way to go.
Checkboxes on the Bad List should show whether the business has re-
ceived any FAQs.
Here are some rating areas. Just throwing these out. Note that while
I personally think that f/s light is as important as fresh water, I
have assigned the highest point deduction to the most immediately
life-threatening areas. These ideas are not thought out, just tossed
out, so if you see something wrong speak up.
-10 pts Dead/Dying Animals in Enclosures: dying means on the verge of
death, literally. Otherwise, use the Sick Animal deduction
of 5 pts.
-5 pts Overtly Sick Animals
-3 pts Inadequate Heat
-3 pts Poor Water-- Is there drinkable water? If an amphibious tank,
is the water livable?
-3 pts No Food
-2 pts Food Inappropriateness-- If a rat, is it dead? If veggies,
are they edible?
-2 pts No Full Spectrum Light, if req.
-2 pts Poor Habitat Hygiene
-2 pts Inadequate Habitat Size-- is it overcrowded? If for a single
animal, is the habitat large enough for the animal to be com-
fortable?
-2 pts Unsuitable Cagemates
-1 pt Evidence of Bad Hygiene, like a powerful scent of ammonia or a
mite infestation. If the ammonia smell, or whatever, per-
meates the shop, then 1 pt is deducted from each herp habitat.
Whether we choose to use this system or something completely dif-
ferent, I suggest that we make the final ratings system, along with
the Multiple-Visit suggestion & the Notification-by-Letter procedure,
the entryway to the website. We want skeptics to see that we are
encouraging honesty and integrity, and not just slamming businesses
idly from the safety of our keyboards.
Jay G.
Deron Douglas
Bravo on your letter, I hope it does something to help clean up
these conditions. I am very appalled by the total lack of care these
animals receive, and the ignorance that so called 'professionals' seem
to have. You'd think that a retailer selling iguanas and other reptiles
would at least have a faint idea about what is involved to care for them.
After all, this is where most novices will receive their information.
I hope others take a front seat and follow your example...
De> 4. Included in this letter are documents named:
De> The Complete Guide to Feeding Green Iguanas in Captivity
De> The Care, Feeding and Socialization of the Green Iguana
BTW... could you tell me where I can get copies of these documents.
Thanx Deron D.
Deron....@canrem.com
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
Andrew Boyd
On 8 Jul 1995, Snakemaker wrote:
> Let's not forget that the horrible treatment of these imported animals
> starts at the country of origin. This does not in any way justify the
> treatment of them once they reach this country. Just remember that their
> are many fingers in the pie.
(snip)
Isn't this a good argument for buying Captive Bred? Here in Australia we
don't have any choice, all legal herps are CB, but "over there" you do
have the choice, and if enough herpers bought and bred their CB beasties
then the situation may change. The CDC report on Samonella mentioned a
figure of 650,000 imported Igs - just one species - I'm not sure if this
was over the last year, over the last ten years, or what. But that's
650,000 more Igs than got imported into Australia (I admit it - I'm
jealous!).
I heard a rumour a couple of years back that some US Govt instrumentality
was looking into the banning of imported wildlife - how would that effect
herp-keeping in the USA? Would it be a good thing? I wonder!
Regards, Andrew Boyd
(ab...@pcug.org.au)
Snakemaker
symantics in this country, captive born doesn't always mean in the USA ).
What really ticks me off is: how many of those 650,000 green iguanas will
reach healthy adulthood?
I don't sell green iguanas for that reason.
Bryan Mohr
>ma...@summit.novell.com (mattk) wrote:
>>
>> Mark Garvin (mga...@panix.com) wrote:
>> : We are planning to try to get a web site for providing references
>Each enclosure starts off with 10 pts. A 10 is an enclosure that has
>nothing notable wrong with it.
That rating system is very nice, and well thought out. But, for the
time being I think we're just going to rely on comments and let the
person reading the info use their own judgement from that.
>Jay G.
Bryan Mohr
Mike Fry
the text. They would also appear more objective.
Mike
In article <3trt67$5...@fido.asd.sgi.com>, jay gitomer
<jgit...@clubfed.sgi.com> wrote:
> ma...@summit.novell.com (mattk) wrote:
> >
> > Mark Garvin (mga...@panix.com) wrote:
> > : We are planning to try to get a web site for providing references
> > : good and bad about pet stores' treatment of their animals.
> >
> > How do you protect yourself from allegations of libel and lawsuits? It's not
> > like you're a newspaper or some such... I guess you'll have to be
> > anonymous about it... Oops! Too late!
>
> I don't know if this would save anyone from a libel suit or not, but
> to foster objectivity I suggest a very simple rating system.
>
> A petstore has multiple enclosures.
>
> Each enclosure starts off with 10 pts. A 10 is an enclosure that has
> nothing notable wrong with it.
>
Mark Patrick
: >How do you protect yourself from allegations of libel and lawsuits? It's not
: >like you're a newspaper or some such... I guess you'll have to be
: >anonymous about it... Oops! Too late!
: Let 'em come after me! That's one of the reasons we are trying to
: get this off the ground. I'll put my 'John Hancock' on any report
: that I turn in, and so will anyone else that files a report.
I think you are being a bit naive here. In the US, there is a big difference
between someone being able to *win* a slander/libel suit and someone actually
bringing the action. The cost of defending yourself could get into five
figures - certainly a few thousand without blinking an eye. And you have no
realistic hope of recovering those costs, even if you win the lawsuit.
Things are much better in the UK where the loser pays the winner's attorney's
fees.
I think you are embarking on a worthy endeavor. I hope things go smoothly.
Mark (yet another one!)
Kathryn Roth-Whitworth
mga...@panix.com (Mark Garvin) wrote:
> So let's talk about what should be on the page.
>
> Seems we need:
>
> 2. A way to enter a good pet store and location and poss 'grade'
> 3. A way to 'sign the petition'
> 4. Possibly, a way to access the data on-line?
>
> list downloadable?
>
Not all of us yet have Web access (though I'm told it's coming). Don't
disenfranchise the technologically-differently-abled!
Best,
Kathryn Roth-Whitworth
Laura Corriss
Glad to see someone taking the initiative to get this moving along.
A few comments/suggestions for discussion:
1. Part of what sparked this was someone's comments about Strictly
Reptiles and my agreement that the store is an atrocity. A couple
other people wrote that they strongly disagreed. (As an aside, I
went back to visit the store after work yesterday, but got there too
late and they were closed. I will visit again as soon as possible and
post my findings).
I think we need to address the issue of how we handle disagreements. In
many cases it is obvious, but other stores may look okay but still need
improvement in some area. Also, some species have specific requirements
that many of us may not be aware of. A store may be doing a pretty
good job overall, but be a disaster with certain species. Do we want
to discuss this now, or just get started and deal with it when the
issue arises? I am just concerned about the impression we are going
to be giving everyone. Especially if one store is cited as being
negligent in an area, while another gets a good rating, but both
are practicing the same habits. Maybe we need to narrow our focus,
just to get this off the ground and to improve the really poor shops?
2. Do we want to create a checklist, to make it easier for us to
know what to look for, to make the comparison more uniform, and to
give to the stores so they know where improvement is needed? If so,
I'd be glad to help print it up and mail copies out to everyone
interested, but will need a lot of imput as to what should be
included.
3. Are we opening this up to other groups (non-herps)? I would imagine
that there are a lot of people on rec.pets.birds who would like to
participate. Anyone here in other other pet newgroups? What do you
think?
--
Laura Corriss (lcor...@gate.net)
LeeAnn West
something she had shared a while back, explaining her herp society's approach.
I believe it should prove an excellent way to cut down on ambiguity.
-LeeAnn
In article <3u0val$o...@seminole.gate.net>, lcor...@news.gate.net (Laura
Corriss) writes:
> A few comments/suggestions for discussion:
>
...
> I think we need to address the issue of how we handle disagreements.
> In many cases it is obvious, but other stores may look okay but still
> need improvement in some area. Also, some species have
> specific requirements that many of us may not be aware of. A store may
> be doing a pretty good job overall, but be a disaster with certain
> species. Do we want to discuss this now, or just get started and
> deal with it when the issue arises?
...
Dana Gr
am interested in opening a store in Houston in a year or so (or as long as
it takes to get everything planned). I refuse to sell any animal that is
imported or to anyone that does not have proper education on the animal.
I also refuse to buy animals that I am not properly educated about. Any
help would be greatly appreciated.
Dan...@aol.com
Mike Fry
that is being taken so far - to get something up and running now. Trying
to make things perfect from the start often leads to things not happening.
Mike
In article <3u0val$o...@seminole.gate.net>, lcor...@news.gate.net (Laura
Corriss) wrote:
> Mark,
>
> Glad to see someone taking the initiative to get this moving along.
>
> A few comments/suggestions for discussion:
>
> 1. Part of what sparked this was someone's comments about Strictly
> Reptiles and my agreement that the store is an atrocity. A couple
> other people wrote that they strongly disagreed. (As an aside, I
> went back to visit the store after work yesterday, but got there too
> late and they were closed. I will visit again as soon as possible and
> post my findings).
>
> I think we need to address the issue of how we handle disagreements. In
> many cases it is obvious, but other stores may look okay but still need
> improvement in some area. Also, some species have specific requirements
> that many of us may not be aware of. A store may be doing a pretty
> good job overall, but be a disaster with certain species. Do we want
> to discuss this now, or just get started and deal with it when the
> issue arises? I am just concerned about the impression we are going
> to be giving everyone. Especially if one store is cited as being
> negligent in an area, while another gets a good rating, but both
> are practicing the same habits. Maybe we need to narrow our focus,
> just to get this off the ground and to improve the really poor shops?
>
> 2. Do we want to create a checklist, to make it easier for us to
> know what to look for, to make the comparison more uniform, and to
Detrickm
I have put ads in papers before. Unfortunately, they are so expensive it
is almost prohibitive without a huge backing. For example, an ad (not
classified) in the Orange County Register would cost about $1000.00 -
$5000.00 depending on the size. Now you can see why a huge backing would
be required. The good thing is that this type of add would do the trick.
I have still not heard back anything from my Prehistoric Pets letter.
Detrickm
Detrickm
stores. Maybe the list should only contain a shop for a year. Maybe we
can have people in certain areas of the country that we trust who can make
it to these stores and double check before an entry is added or removed.
For example, I can cover Orange County. Maybe this idea is not practical?
Our own credibility will depend on our accuracy. The pet shops do not
know who we are and that gives us an advantage of spot check.
Detrickm
go insearch of "Lame Pet Stores". People will go to their respective
animal and should see it there. Maybe from those locations it will tie
into one area. My "expertise" is not internet software and how it works I
will have to leave it up to you. But I do know how people think.
The what is wrong with this pet shop section will be different for every
majot animal type. i.e. fish, rept. birds, dogs & cats. I only know
about iguanas but a check list can be made of what is severely lacking.
Instead of good guy bad guy we can just have a list of as many pet stores
as possible possibly separated by geographical area with the folowing
check areas:
Excellent conditions
Good conditions
A problem store (sub check list)
Lacking proper water
Lacking proper heat
Lacking proper lighting (possibly this and the one above could be one)
Lacking proper food
Dead animals in cage
Overcrowded
Mites or other parasites
Staff not knowledgable
You get the idea. So we do not take shops on or off a list but merely
change the checks. Virtually the same though. This could be like the
directory of pet stores rating, similar to restaurants. People will come
here to see what is a good shop to buy what ever animal they are
interested in. Maybe a shop will rate high in selection of birds or rate
high in knowledgable staff. The main problem I see with this is how to
maintain it. The restaurant section is done by a fairly established
company who is devoted to just that. We don't exactly have those
resources.
More later,
Detrickm
MarkT24244
Very organized, healthy reptiles,good people.
Detrickm
it over to see if it met the requirements for other reptiles. Let us know
what you think.
1. Are there any dead animals in the enclosure? (Be sure! ask the staff
to let you see the animal. If it turns out to be dead, then you know for
sure.)
2. Is there water in the enclosure? Is it free of feces?
3. Is the substrate and other furnishings clean? What percentage is
feces? Be rational here.
4. Is the enclosure overcrowded? Can the animals move freely?
5. Is the staff knowledgable as to the diet, heat and lighting of the
animal?
6. Are there any parasites on the animals?
7. Are there any injured animals?
8. Is there food for the animals? What were they fed?
Detrickm
Mark Garvin
>jay gitomer <jgit...@clubfed.sgi.com> wrote:
>>ma...@summit.novell.com (mattk) wrote:
>>>
>>> Mark Garvin (mga...@panix.com) wrote:
>>> : We are planning to try to get a web site for providing references
>>Each enclosure starts off with 10 pts. A 10 is an enclosure that has
>>nothing notable wrong with it.
>That rating system is very nice, and well thought out. But, for the
>time being I think we're just going to rely on comments and let the
>person reading the info use their own judgement from that.
One of the objectives should be to avoid making any untrue statements.
This is the basis for what libel is all about. If everything is true,
no grounds for libel. Simple.
The point about going back is well taken. I have been advocating
that we require a report to local authorities, and sort of 'read
in' exactly what we plan to post. Then there will be a record of
a sort. And this should discourage 'whimsical' reports.
Of course, this supposes some way of differentiating bad report
from good reports.
The disclaimer will probably be of limited legal use, but should
be posted anyway. I have spoken to a lawyer about drafting one.
I've seen plenty of docs on other web pages in the form of
'surveys'. This terminology may be worth considering.
By the way, we have very few people signed up so far.
Regards,
Mark Garvin
Mark Garvin
>Mark Garvin (mga...@panix.com) wrote:
>: >How do you protect yourself from allegations of libel and lawsuits? It's not
>: >like you're a newspaper or some such... I guess you'll have to be
>: >anonymous about it... Oops! Too late!
>: mgarvin:
>: Let 'em come after me! That's one of the reasons we are trying to
>: get this off the ground. I'll put my 'John Hancock' on any report
>: that I turn in, and so will anyone else that files a report.
>Mark Patrick:
>I think you are being a bit naive here. In the US, there is a big difference
>between someone being able to *win* a slander/libel suit and someone actually
>bringing the action. The cost of defending yourself could get into five
>figures...
>I think you are embarking on a worthy endeavor. I hope things go smoothly.
This is unlikely to ever happen. Look at all the ratings sheets available
on the net for computers, software, dealers of all kinds. They are not
getting sued left and right.
Also, the party bringing suit is at a decided disadvantage.
AND the commitment must be made. Or else...?
I'll stick by what I've said.
Mark Garvin
Mark Garvin
>i would like to become part of this group, i have currently been talking
>to some stores in the area that are not taking care or the reptiles in a
>humane mannor. i would like to see them clean up the act so-to-speak. i
>feel that posting our findings as acurate and sad as they may be should
>be the way to work this aout and by also sending copies of the posting to
>the stores with comments to reduce the health risks of the animals herps
> JOHN BLICHARZ MNF...@prodigy.com
Hi John, and others.... If you are interested in adding your name to
letters sent to offending pet stores, we need to compile a list.
I don't want to assume implicit agreement to anything just by the
discussion here. In other words, I will not scoop peoples' names
from messages here. So just send a *SHORT* message with an obvious
header with your name and email addr to mga...@panix.com.
Regards,
Mark G.
Mark Garvin
> I not sure wheather this is pratical or not, but I think that it
>is necessary. If a person is prepared to report on a petshop, they had
>better be prepared to visit the shop a few more times to update on
>progress or regression. But I'm afraid that petshops will begin to know
>me by sight, if I visit and report on them often :). Although, I don not
>view that as a big problem.
Here comes that guy again! Hurry up and hide all the lizards!
<g>
Mark Garvin
Mike Balsai
> >is necessary. If a person is prepared to report on a petshop, they had
> >better be prepared to visit the shop a few more times to update on
> >progress or regression. But I'm afraid that petshops will begin to know
> >me by sight, if I visit and report on them often :). Although, I don not
> >view that as a big problem.
Hey, aren't any of you guys worried about being sued? Such a thing could
diminish "zeal" really fast I would think. Telling your friends about
"crappy" policies of a particular business is one thing, but posting over
and over on the net just might bring on some legalistic "wrath" after some
point. Good luck though.
Mike Balsai (just me 2 cents)
Michael C Dunn
: I believe that Mgarvin has good points about the fairness to the pet
I not sure wheather this is pratical or not, but I think that it
is necessary. If a person is prepared to report on a petshop, they had
better be prepared to visit the shop a few more times to update on
progress or regression. But I'm afraid that petshops will begin to know
me by sight, if I visit and report on them often :). Although, I don not
view that as a big problem.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Mike dunn
dif...@computek.net
dunn...@utdallas.edu
Check me out at http://wwwpub.utdallas.edu/~dunn4614
John Blicharz
>many cases it is obvious, but other stores may look okay but still need
>improvement in some area. Also, some species have specific requirements
>that many of us may not be aware of. A store may be doing a pretty
>good job overall, but be a disaster with certain species. Do we want
>to discuss this now, or just get started and deal with it when the
>issue arises? I am just concerned about the impression we are going
>to be giving everyone. Especially if one store is cited as being
>negligent in an area,
i would like to become part of this group, i have currently been talking
to some stores in the area that are not taking care or the reptiles in a
humane mannor. i would like to see them clean up the act so-to-speak. i
feel that posting our findings as acurate and sad as they may be should
be the way to work this aout and by also sending copies of the posting to
the stores with comments to reduce the health risks of the animals herps
and all!
i feel this is a great contribution one can take to help the animals we
care for to have a better home!
I would be able to take care or the Hudson County, New Jersey area and
some others in the NJ Area.
One very important thing should be considered while doing the above. we
cann't bash a store to the point where no one will shop there for reps
etc. this could result in the store never selling the animals therefor
being subjected to stay in the conditions we found to be untiedy.
i will look into some ways to help get this project of the ground also.
please e-mail me back so we can toss around some ideas as far a check
list and mailings which i'll be more than happy to provide as well.
JOHN BLICHARZ MNF...@prodigy.com
Bryan Mohr
There are MANY good captive bred only dealers around. Check in any
issue of Vivarium, Reptiles, or Reptile and Ampibian magazine. Most of
the dealers that only handle captive bred specify that in their ads.
One dealer who I know to be very good is R&M Herpetoculture. They only
deal captive bred (which they breed themselves) animals. You can see
their price list on the WWW at:
http://www.best.com/~watr/rm.html
Bryan Mohr
Mike Balsai
(MarkT24244) wrote:
> I've seen Crutchfields back room. Clean as a whistle.
> Very organized, healthy reptiles,good people.
You might check out the Herpetological Directory published by Reptile and
Amphibian Magazine. Many dealers are listed here.
Mike Balsai
Snakemaker
Some animals don't need a water bowl in their cage if they are watered
properly. For instance: I don't keep water bowls in my tortoise cages
because they make such a mess of it which leads to bacteria build up in a
constantly wet cage. I water the tortoises from twice a day to once a
week depending on the species. I have also raised several iguanas to
healthy adulthood without water bowls.
I agree totally with what you are doing lets just make sure the animals
are not being taken care of before we raise a stink. Where I live, if you
keep a water bowl in a rosy boas cage all year it could very well die from
it.
Jef Hewitt
>Subject: Natural Selection of Pet Shops
>From: Mark....@mail.tju.edu
>Date: Fri, 07 Jul 95 18:29:56 EDT
>Message-ID: <173D41042...@TJUVM.TJU.EDU>
>We live in interesting times.
>
>The shops and distributors that are alleged to be the worst offenders
>of reptile care during holding and distribution are the ones with the
>lowest prices and largest customer base.
>
>Shops and distributors with more employees and better facilities need to
>charge a bit more (rightly so) for their cleaner and healthier animals.
>
>Perhaps we need to ensure the survival of the better shops by directing
>our purchases their way, and sending our friends to shops that we like.
>
>And NOT judging animals solely on the "lowest price=best animal" axiom.
>
>The low-price shoppers are the single biggest reason that slip-shod
>reptile
>businesses exist.
>
>Going after businesses that we don't like is not nearly as productive as
>promoting those that we do like.
>
I have to at least comment on this thread. I agree with the post above on
principle; the best action is to patronize stores that you like and not shop
at those you don't.
I do feel that there is a need to defend pet businesses in general now. It's
relatively easy to jump on the "latest pet shop horror story bandwagon" on
the net. I know that there are examples of bad facilities. I have seen my
share--I called the manager of one a few years ago and explained my disgust
and that I would be back to check if things changed; I was polite but logical
in my presentation of herptiles as animals with the same right to proper care
as any other animal in captivity. When I visited the store four days later,
the manager had obviously had all waters changed and cages cleaned. Over the
next few months, every time I visited the store, the conditions remained
good. What I must say is that I believe these cases to be more of the
exception than the rule. Waterline, Sunnyvale Reptile and East Bay Vivarium
are two stores in my area that have had animals in excellent condition when I
visited them. They were also giving solid advice on keeping herptiles.
I have also managed the reptile section of a sizable pet store. Mites can be
a real problem; they can be brought in the store when one nitwit brings his
mite infested snake into the store. I had one customer do this once in her
purse, and if she had not shown me the snake before she left, I never would
have known it was there. Within two days, all of the snake cages were
infested. I had to treat everyone of the cages for mites. Stuff like this
can happen.
Also, bear in mind that stores get reptiles from wholesalers or breeders. I
can't count the time that I received an emaciated or mite infested animal.
That did not always mean that I would send the animal back. In my case,
treatment would start immediately. I even had quarrantine cages in the back
to isolate sick animals; not all stores have this type of setup.
I have been to Prehistoric Pets several years ago when I lived in the area.
Although bad treatment of employees is another issue, I never saw bad
conditions there. In previous posts, someone had mentioned Sunnyvale Reptile
as having bad conditions; when I have been there, everything has looked great.
Timing of visits to a store is definitely also a factor. If new animals come
in, it might affect what you see. I suggest that people do not start calling
government agencies at the drop of a hat; try talking to a manager first and
see if they correct the problem.
Michael Stephen Grace
I totally agree, BUT, still know who you are dealing with.
Lloyd and Sunnie Lemke of California apparently were busted
recently for dealing in native wild-caught California
wildlife. In addition, I just learned (seconds ago) that Dick
Goergen of New York was probably (at least at one time in the
recent past) dealing in wild-caught Gila monsters. This is
from a buyer of these animals (he thought according to
Goergen's word that they were captive-hatched, but
circumstances indicate otherwise).
Michael
Mike Balsai
> Stores that would sue bring risk of shining a light on their situation,
> i.e. media attention etc...That in itself is not worth it for them to sue.
Oh, I doubt that. And they can sue and win. There was an article about
this sort of thin in a recent Mac World. Be that as it may. I hate sleazy
pet stores as much as anybody. But this kind of thing is not our mission
(ie., for re.pet.herp). Should it become so I will publically
dissassociate myself with this group!
Mike Balsai
>
Dana Gr
idea to compile a caresheet so to speak as to what would be considered
ideal conditions for each animal besides the obvious things such as fresh
water, food etc (although some animals have more specific concerns such as
too much humidity, they could drown etc.). I think infomation such as
substrate used, cage size, etc should be provided so that I could assess
an animal that I wasn't an expert on. Also this would be helpful in
uniforming our assessments. Where we might have some disagreements in
this area, I believe that we can all come to work on what would be
acceptable and hopefully excellent conditions. It would be a dream come
true to go into one of these nasty shops and assess it, have a discussion
with the owner and employees, give them uniform guidelines as to what they
can do, and come back to find the store with excellent conditions. The
messed up thing is that you would think that the owner and employees would
feel so much better knowing they have everything straight and that they
are reputable and humane. Why deal with animals if you can't treat them
right? Get into another business. If you're in it to make money, the pet
store is not the way to go when compared to other businesses.
Anyway....back to the point...acceptable conditions would be great to have
as well as the checklist of bad. What do you think? Dana
Dana Gr
Snakemaker
Dawn Elaine Lausa
And, beware of the term "farm raised". One trick is to buy a chunk of
rainforest or other relatively unspoiled habitat, throw a fence around
it, and call it a farm. Hardly in the spirit of captive propagation.
There are legitimate farms, but it pays to know who you are dealing with,
indeed.
del
Melissa458
Elaine Lausa) writes:
>And, beware of the term "farm raised". One trick is to buy a chunk of
>rainforest or other relatively unspoiled habitat, throw a fence around
>it, and call it a farm. Hardly in the spirit of captive propagation.
'Farm - raised' and 'captive born' are both misleading....take in wild
caught gravid females till they drop their eggs/young, or go out and dig
up and bring back clutches of eggs, and voila! you have captive born
reptiles. Farm raised? truck 'em in, thow 'em in some pens, throw some
food at 'em until it's time to crate 'em up and ship 'em out (anybody else
hear the Rawhide theme playing in the background?), and voila! you have
farm-raised!
Jeremy O. Palenchar
do it by Area code so I could punch in 910 and find out all the reviews
of pet stores in that area code. What I need is feedback on what type of
animals we want info on. I have heard Snakes, Iguanas, Turtles, Fish, and
Dogs/Cats. Any others? Also I need feedback on what type of info we want
to keep track of for each group. So if you are knowledgeable about any of
these groups send me a list of things we should look out for. I will work
on it and post progress and the page URL once I get started.
Jeremy