INDIANA DNR ARRESTS HERPERS/CLOSES EXPO!!!!
Jeff Barringer
I wanted to get this info out so I may need to make corrections later
as more facts come to light....
The Indiana Department of Natural Resources arrested between 15 - 30
reptile enthusiasts/dealers at
a Reptile Expo in Indianapolis Indiana for violations of state wildlife
codes.
Apparently a 2 year undercover operation, some of the arrested were
cited for violations of Indianas "EMERGENCY" measures implemented in
December 1997.
Officials closed the Expo and forced both participants and arrested to
wait in the parking lot,
while DNR officials escorted news crews from Indianas major TVstations
through the expo exhibits.
One expo participant forced to wait outside, was treated for heat
related problems by paramedics,
while some were forced to wait in handcuffs outside for several hours.
Included in the arrests was the NRAAC Indiana State Coordinator, who
also HAD
HIS COMPUTER AND DISKS SEIZED!!! Also siezed were NRAAC confidential
EMAILs,
and the NRAAC - Indiana Chapter Membership list.
_________________________________________________________________
It is frightening that Indiana's DNR is apparently unconcerned with the
unconstitutionality of this.
I would expect these Gestapo like tactics from COMMUNISTS in Red China.
Seizing the computers
and arresting of politcal opponents is something I would expect out of
Nazi Germany circa 1939
but to think that this is happening in the US in 1998 makes me question
the benfits of living in a
democracy.
Wake up people!!!! They only have 49 more states to go....
We need funding now, to fight these tactics
NRAACs state chapter (ICRAWL) is setting up a special fund to provide
legal assistance to
those arrested. To donate please send a check to:
ICRAWL c/o Ron Billingsley
3524 Dubarry Road
Indianapolis, In. 46226
To donate to the NRAAC National Chapter please send checks to:
NRAAC c/o Jeff Barringer
508 East Howard Lane #25
Austin, Texas 78753
--
Protect your rights to keep Reptiles & Amphibians!!!
Join NRAAC today!!!
http://www.nraac.org/membership.html
Shawn Lockhart
> The Indiana Department of Natural Resources arrested between 15 - 30
> reptile enthusiasts/dealers at
> a Reptile Expo in Indianapolis Indiana for violations of state wildlife
> codes.
> Apparently a 2 year undercover operation, some of the arrested were
> cited for violations of Indianas "EMERGENCY" measures implemented in
> December 1997.
We need funding now, to fight these tactics
>
Before everyone starts sending checks, consider that one of the men
arrested is a well known Iowa resident, and the only person ever denied
membership in the Iowa Herpetological Society. This person frequently
openly sells adult Wood turtles and is only too happy to sell hatchling
turtles to 8 year olds. At most expos (when he is allowed to display) he
has more sick turtles on his table than healthy ones. I'm sure there were
many innocents affected but don't always assume everyone is innocent and
the DNR is wrong. You won't find a person in Iowa who has something nice
to say about some of these people.
Horridus
>but to think that this is happening in the US in 1998 makes me question
the benfits of living in a
democracy.
No offense J, but we do not live in a democracy.
SkyWolf
O.K. Horriblebus..... I'll bite. WHAT DO WE LIVE IN?
I'm just waiting to be enlightened.
Mac
ASalzberg
Latest on herpscam and Indiana show. All information doublechecked for
accuracry. Show was not closed, nor were the operators arrested or targeted,
just specific dealers who happened to be there.
as
ASalzberg
Dear Jeff,
Sorry if this seems strong, but when people start using words like gestapo and
Nazis, I have this kneejerk reaction to want to hit them, right where it
hurts. As someone who has no family because of the real gestapoand thegood
old KGB, and knows what real real gestapo tactics are, I can only hope you are
mistaken and not using these "hot' buttons toscare people and raise funds. I
hope you understand my poisition.
Back to herps. You got the sequence wrong, first get the facts right then send
them out. From your comments after your "apology" I only have to believe that
you wanted to get people scared to join up. Also I have a question after
looking at your site, In you purpose of statement I don't remember anything
about conservation and protection of herps, just protection of the right to
keep herps. Shouldn't it be both? No wonder scientists think we are just a
bunch of amateurs out for a buck.
By the way the targeted ones were selling bog, wood and timber
rattlers.Something i hope you don't condone. Those were thedealers the gov't
have been following for 2-3 years to build a solid case. Others busted at the
show under the new law will probably get off with just a warning or a small
fine. They unfortunately just got caught with the real crooks that give the
rest of us a bad name.
And its not 49 states left, the investigation found the sales of these animals
going on in 14 states. So that makes it 36?
Allen Salzberg
Horridus
A constitutional republic
"I'm just waiting to be enlightened."
I seriously doubt this.
ReverendPain
I heard about this,....Why?? What did they do wrong, was it the animals they
possesed??? I would love to know this, I had a friend at this show and he said
they were very abusive and were on a total power trip. Shut the show down and
all, very hush hush - Kev NERD
Jeff Barringer wrote:
>
> I wanted to get this info out so I may need to make corrections later
> as more facts come to light....
>
> The Indiana Department of Natural Resources arrested between 15 - 30
> reptile enthusiasts/dealers at
> a Reptile Expo in Indianapolis Indiana for violations of state wildlife
> codes.
> Apparently a 2 year undercover operation, some of the arrested were
> cited for violations of Indianas "EMERGENCY" measures implemented in
> December 1997.
> Officials closed the Expo and forced both participants and arrested to
> wait in the parking lot,
> while DNR officials escorted news crews from Indianas major TVstations
> through the expo exhibits.
> One expo participant forced to wait outside, was treated for heat
> related problems by paramedics,
> while some were forced to wait in handcuffs outside for several hours.
>
> Included in the arrests was the NRAAC Indiana State Coordinator, who
> also HAD
> HIS COMPUTER AND DISKS SEIZED!!! Also siezed were NRAAC confidential
> EMAILs,
> and the NRAAC - Indiana Chapter Membership list.
> _________________________________________________________________
>
> It is frightening that Indiana's DNR is apparently unconcerned with the
> unconstitutionality of this.
> I would expect these Gestapo like tactics from COMMUNISTS in Red China.
> Seizing the computers
> and arresting of politcal opponents is something I would expect out of
> Nazi Germany circa 1939
> but to think that this is happening in the US in 1998 makes me question
> the benfits of living in a
> democracy.
>
> Wake up people!!!! They only have 49 more states to go....
>
> We need funding now, to fight these tactics
>
Jeff Barringer
ASalzberg wrote:
>
> Dear Jeff,
>
> Sorry if this seems strong, but when people start using words like gestapo and
> Nazis, I have this kneejerk reaction to want to hit them, right where it
> hurts. As someone who has no family because of the real gestapoand thegood
> old KGB, and knows what real real gestapo tactics are, I can only hope you are
> mistaken and not using these "hot' buttons toscare people and raise funds. I
> hope you understand my poisition.
I do, but as I recall from my readings the first things the Nazis and
Communists
did while coming to power was to eliminate the opposition groups and
their newspapers.
In this raid the NRAAC Indiana state coordinator was jailed and his
computer was
confiscated along with his membership lists. To me thats wrong. If it
was
snakes take the snakes and leave. The DNR and USF&W now has access to
very sensitive
NRAAC documents. I am not comfortable with that.
When the state and fed. government starts seizing the computers of
organizations
that disagree with it, that should scare you.
> Back to herps. You got the sequence wrong, first get the facts right then send
> them out.
I agree that I should have more "facts" but as I prefaced my document...
"I wanted to get this info out so I may need to make corrections later
as more facts come to light...." I assumed that people would know a
complete
update would follow. Besides, who decides what the "facts" are. As I
recall there
are always two sides to an arguement, and the
mainstream media will report what the DNR and USFW spoonfeeds them as
they always
do....I searched the Newsgroups for any previous posts and
the DNR and Indiana Newspaper websites and could find no informaTion at
all as yet
and decided to go with what I had until I can talk to Indiana DNR and
ICRAWLS
lawyers on monday.
> From your comments after your "apology" I only have to believe that
> you wanted to get people scared to join up. A
When the state and fed. government starts seizing the computers of
organizations
that disagree with it, that should scare you. If they went in and seized
the Indiana
ACLU's would that make you comfortable?
>Also I have a question after
> looking at your site, In you purpose of statement I don't remember anything
> about conservation and protection of herps, just protection of the right to
> keep herps. Shouldn't it be both?
There are many Herp Societies and Organizations who are already
chartered with the
protection and conservation of herps, but there are currently no other
Organziations
chartered with the protection of herpers. How many more INNOCENT herpers
have to have their
lives and finances ruined over things like this> Their have already been
plenty.
From the NRAAC mission statement...
The National Reptile & Amphibian Advisory Council shall provide a
technical basis for the
establishment of legitimate legislation and regulation policies and
programs for reptiles
nd amphibians in the United States of America, at both the state and
federal level.
The National Reptile & Amphibian Advisory Council is an organization of
informed
and politically active, concerned herpetologists, herpetoculturists and
other persons
interested in herpetofauna, banding together for the purpose of
monitoring and
interceding to prevent legislation or regulations that will be
detrimental to the legal
keeping and breeding of reptiles and amphibians, and to support such
legislation or
regulation where a true need exists and can be supported by legitimate
scientific
evidence.
to support such legislation or
regulation where a true need exists and can be supported by legitimate
scientific
evidence.
> No wonder scientists think we are just a
> bunch of amateurs out for a buck.
That was uncalled for and incorrect, nowhere on my site is money
the issue.
>
> By the way the targeted ones were selling bog, wood and timber
> rattlers.Something i hope you don't condone.
The NRAAC state coordinator wasn't, nor do we condone violating any
state or federal
laws of any type. We do however promote CHANGING laws, through legal
means, some of the more
stupid ones.
>Those were thedealers the gov't
> have been following for 2-3 years to build a solid case. Others busted at the
> show under the new law will probably get off with just a warning or a small
> fine. They unfortunately just got caught with the real crooks that give the
> rest of us a bad name.
And that may in fact be the case, but unfortunately it will cost the
innocent ones
just as much as the guilty
>
> And its not 49 states left, the investigation found the sales of these animals
> going on in 14 states. So that makes it 36?
Ah yes but the arrests only occured in one correct?
>
> Allen Salzberg
Jeff Barringer
ooops... read the other reply...
I hitthe sedn button too soon...
Jeff Barringer
ASalzberg wrote:
>
> Dear Jeff,
>
> Sorry if this seems strong,
Thats ok, the internet should be a place where ideas can be freely
exchanged, and
I am a big boy....
> but when people start using words like gestapo and
> Nazis, I have this kneejerk reaction to want to hit them, right where it
> hurts. As someone who has no family because of the real gestapoand thegood
> old KGB, and knows what real real gestapo tactics are, I can only hope you are
> mistaken and not using these "hot' buttons toscare people and raise funds. I
> hope you understand my poisition.
I do understand, my intention is to increase awareness. NRAAC does
not require membership fees and does need funding of course but that was
not the primary purpose
of the post. As I recall from my readings the first things the Nazis and
Communists
did while coming to power was to eliminate the opposition groups,their
newspapers,
and their printing presses.
In this raid the NRAAC Indiana state coordinator was jailed and his
computer was
confiscated along with his membership lists. To me thats wrong.It also
violates the first amendment.
If it was snakes take the snakes and leave. The DNR and USF&W now has
access to very sensitive
NRAAC documents. I am not comfortable with that.
When the state and fed. government starts seizing the computers of
peaceful unarmed organizations
that disagree with it, that should scare you in a big way.
> Back to herps. You got the sequence wrong, first get the facts right then send
> them out.
I agree that I should have more "facts" but as I prefaced my document...
"I wanted to get this info out so I may need to make corrections later
as more facts come to light...." I assumed that people would know a
complete
update would follow. Besides, who decides what the "facts" are. As I
recall there
are always two sides to an arguement, and the
mainstream media will report what the DNR and USFW spoonfeeds them as
they always
do, so whos to say my post is anymore innacurrate than the ones in the
mainstream media.
I searched the Newsgroups for any previous posts and
the DNR and Indiana Newspaper websites and could find no informaTion at
all as yet
and decided to go with what I had until I can talk to Indiana DNR and
ICRAWLS
lawyers on monday.
> From your comments after your "apology" I only have to believe that
> you wanted to get people scared to join up. A
When the state and fed. government starts seizing the computers of
organizations
that disagree with it, that should scare you. If they went in and seized
the Indiana
ACLU's, or the NAACP, would that make you comfortable?
>Also I have a question after
> looking at your site, In you purpose of statement I don't remember anything
> about conservation and protection of herps, just protection of the right to
> keep herps. Shouldn't it be both?
There are many Herp Societies and Organizations who are already
chartered with the
protection and conservation of herps, but there are currently no other
Organziations
chartered with the protection and conservation of herpers. I have never
tried to imply that this
organization should be anything but that.How many more INNOCENT herpers
have to have their
lives and finances ruined over things like this> Their have already been
plenty.
But as too protecting and conserving herps
From the NRAAC mission statement...
The National Reptile & Amphibian Advisory Council shall provide a
technical basis for the
establishment of legitimate legislation and regulation policies and
programs for reptiles
and amphibians in the United States of America, at both the state and
federal level.
The National Reptile & Amphibian Advisory Council is an organization of
informed
and politically active, concerned herpetologists, herpetoculturists and
other persons
interested in herpetofauna, banding together for the purpose of
monitoring and
interceding to prevent legislation or regulations that will be
detrimental to the legal
keeping and breeding of reptiles and amphibians, and to support such
legislation or
regulation where a true need exists and can be supported by legitimate
scientific
evidence.
Let me repeat an important phrase....
to support such legislation or
regulation where a true need exists and can be supported by legitimate
scientific
evidence.
> No wonder scientists think we are just a
> bunch of amateurs out for a buck.
That was uncalled for and incorrect, nowhere on my site is money
the issue, nor has it ever been. The whole herpetoculturist vs.
herpetologist
issue has nothing to do with this, and frankly I am sick of it. I have
as many
friends that are herpetologists as I do herptoculturists. I wish
everyone
would quit drawing this imaginary line in the sand to seperate us.
>
> By the way the targeted ones were selling bog, wood and timber
> rattlers.Something i hope you don't condone.
The NRAAC state coordinator wasn't, nor do we condone violating any
state or federal
laws of any type. We do however promote CHANGING laws, through legal
means, of the more
stupid ones.
>Those were thedealers the gov't
> have been following for 2-3 years to build a solid case. Others busted at the
> show under the new law will probably get off with just a warning or a small
> fine. They unfortunately just got caught with the real crooks that give the
> rest of us a bad name.
And that may in fact be the case, but unfortunately it will cost the
innocent ones
just as much as the guilty
>
> And its not 49 states left, the investigation found the sales of these animals
> going on in 14 states. So that makes it 36?
Ah yes but the arrests only occured in one correct?
they'll get around to the other 49 soon enough....
HP Authorized Customer
Shawn Lockhart wrote in message ...
I'm sure there were many innocents affected but don't always assume everyone
is innocent and the DNR is wrong. >
Yikes, where were you during highschool civics class?
SkyWolf
On 3 Jul 1998 16:30:00 GMT, horr...@aol.com (Horridus) wrote:
>A constitutional republic
You say potato nd I say Potahto.
>
>
>"I'm just waiting to be enlightened."
>
>I seriously doubt this.
Well then.... can I assume that you won't be the one smart enough to
enlighten me?
Mac
SkyWolf
On Fri, 03 Jul 1998 12:57:07 -0500, Jeff Barringer
<nr...@kingsnake.com> wrote:
>I do, but as I recall from my readings the first things the Nazis and
>Communists
>did while coming to power was to eliminate the opposition groups and
>their newspapers.
And their herpers? uh.........
Mac
Chris Koester
Shawn Lockhart wrote:
> >
> Before everyone starts sending checks, consider that one of the men
> arrested is a well known Iowa resident, and the only person ever denied
> membership in the Iowa Herpetological Society. This person frequently
Shawn:
You are absolutely right in your statements and opinions regarding a
Mr. Craig Kohl of Toddville, IA. Mr. Kohl has been called by the Iowa
DNR "the worst wildlife violator the state has ever seen", and is
undoubtedly a shameless wildlife exploiter who has deserved to be busted
for many many years. He IS banned from most Midwest shows, and has been
observed by myself and others to be in blatant violation of many
wildlife laws, including the Lacey Act.
NRAAC supports the DNR action against Mr. Kohl, and hopes for his
eventual conviction on charges of illegally possessing and selling
endangered wildlife species. I can assure you that Mr. Kohl will not be
receiving an ounce of support from NRAAC-Iowa, ICRAWL, or the National
NRRAC organization. NRAAC's concerns with the Indiana bust include only
those herpers who are innocent of the charges against them, and who also
may have been treated unfairly and unconstitutionally by the law
enforcement officers in question. This includes members of the Indiana
DNR who entered one herper's home and confiscated his address book, day
planner, and COMPUTER . . . all without ever even obtaining a search
warrant. Hopefully any unfair treatment, persecution, or prosectution
of innocent individuals will be revealed in due time. However it is
NRAAC's duty and purpose to see that these injustices are revealed, and
this is a duty that is very difficult to accomplish without some form of
organizational financial support. Be assured that no officer of NRAAC
takes any personal compensation for their efforts, nor will these
efforts or your contributions in any way knowingly support wildlife
violators.
Do not believe that NRAAC is in any way a self-serving entity . . . the
organization itself was founded by concerned herpers who realize that as
a community, we have no voice against overzealous law enforcement and
regulatory action. NRAAC strives to BE that voice, and doing so
requires a good deal of support. We have a dedicated core of
volunteers, officers, and supporters, but NRAAC can only accomplish so
much without reasonable financial resources.
For more info on NRAAC, please feel free to visit our website at
http://www.nraac.org
Chris Koester
State Coordinator
NRAAC-Iowa
Charles Mosher
Chris Koester (ckoe...@iastate.edu) wrote:
--- history snipped ---
: For more info on NRAAC, please feel free to visit our website at
: http://www.nraac.org
: Chris Koester
: State Coordinator
: NRAAC-Iowa
Please fix your website. It is not accepting connections.
--
Charles Mosher
ratr...@svpal.org
Oustaleti
bmcr...@mtu.edu
Charles,
The site has been working fine for me...maybe the problem is on
your end.
Good luck.
Brian
On 6 Jul 1998 20:56:33 GMT, ratr...@svpal.svpal.org (Charles Mosher)
wrote:
Charles Mosher
Oustaleti (oust...@email.msn.com) wrote:
: Works for me.
: Charles Mosher wrote in message <6nrdm1$n...@borg.svpal.org>...
: >Chris Koester (ckoe...@iastate.edu) wrote:
: >
: >--- history snipped ---
: >
: >: For more info on NRAAC, please feel free to visit our website at
: >: http://www.nraac.org
: >
: >: Chris Koester
: >: State Coordinator
: >: NRAAC-Iowa
: >
: >Please fix your website. It is not accepting connections.
: >
: >--
: >Charles Mosher
: >ratr...@svpal.org
Sorry. I was spelling the URL wrong. Please accept my appologies for
wasting your time and system bandwidth.
--
Charles Mosher
ratr...@svpal.org
GeoMac
SkyWolf wrote:
>
> Well then.... can I assume that you won't be the one smart enough to
> enlighten me?
>
> Mac
nobody is that smart. You're a lost cause
ReverendPain
> >the benfits of living in a
> >democracy.
> >
>
> O.K. Horriblebus..... I'll bite. WHAT DO WE LIVE IN?
I'll give you a hint.......You find it in cow pastures and if you eat this
kind of pie you might die. Kev
>
> I'm just waiting to be enlightened.
>
> Mac
George and Martha Ann
Right on, Inidana DNR!
George Patton
Ozarkherp
>
>I'll give you a hint.......You find it in cow pastures and if you eat this
>kind of pie you might die. Kev
You won't die but you'll have TERRIBLE breath!!!
Jeff Barringer
I did NOT repost this again... someones news server is screwed up....
Wint23
new herper in IN