Killing mice with CO2. Vinegtar & Baking soda?
Phillip D
Dioxide, but I don't really want to buy a bottle of CO2 from a welding supply or get dry ice from
an ice cream supplier. I was remembering back to childhood experiments with vinegar and baking
soda and shooting things up in the air. I believe that the chemical reaction for those two
combined is:
NaHCO3 + CH3COOH => CH3COONa + H2CO3 => CH3COONa + H20 + CO2
or
Baking + Vinegar => Sodium + Carbonic => Sodium + Water + Carbon
Soda Acetate Acid Acetate Dioxide
I guess my question is, is there anything in this equation that might be harmfull to the snake if
the mouse ingests it.
Thanks
Phillip Dauben
MelissK
<phil...@ix.netcom.com> writes:
>I've heard that mice & rats can be humanely euthanized by using Carbon
>Dioxide, but I don't really want to buy a bottle of CO2 from a welding
supply
>or get dry ice from
>an ice cream supplier.
So buying lots of vinegar and baking soda and making a mess is
preferable to getting CO2 from a welder that will last for months
or just buying your prey already prekilled?
Melissk
Melissa Kaplan
Mel...@aol.com
Kevin D. Quitt
Indeed. CO2 really stresses the mice. Wait'll you see them panic and run
around like mad. Either buy them pre-frozen (it's often cheaper) or kill them
by hand (one at a time), or use nitrogen or helium (which can be obtained from
any party store).
--
#include <standard_disclaimer.h> http://emoryi.jpl.nasa.gov/
_
Kevin D Quitt USA 91351-4454 96.37% of all statistics are made up
MelissK
k...@emoryi.jpl.nasa.gov (Kevin D. Quitt) writes:
>Wait'll you see them panic and run
>around like mad.
When the gas chamber is properly charged with the CO2
gas before the animals are placed inside, there is no panic,
no running, no nothing: they immediately pass out and are
thoroughly dead within a minute or two.
Melissk
Melissa Kaplan
Mel...@aol.com
Phillip D
>
> In article <3162A8...@ix.netcom.com>, Phillip D
> <phil...@ix.netcom.com> writes:
>
> >I've heard that mice & rats can be humanely euthanized by using Carbon
> >Dioxide, but I don't really want to buy a bottle of CO2 from a welding
> supply
> >or get dry ice from
> >an ice cream supplier.
>
> So buying lots of vinegar and baking soda and making a mess is
> preferable to getting CO2 from a welder that will last for months
> or just buying your prey already prekilled?
I was just curious. We have sooooo much junk around the house that even a CO2 tank would
probably force my hand to CLEAN THE GARAGE (yikes). Anyway, I was just trying to use the things
on hand before acquiring anything new.
Also, I would love to buy prekilled, but can't find anyone who can match the price I am currently
paying. Currently I get large rats for $1.25 each without any S&H charges. If I can find
prekilled for that price or even a little more, I would love to get prekilled.
Phillip
Phillip D
> Indeed. CO2 really stresses the mice. Wait'll you see them panic and run
> around like mad. Either buy them pre-frozen (it's often cheaper) or kill them
> by hand (one at a time), or use nitrogen or helium (which can be obtained from
> any party store).
>
> Kevin D Quitt USA 91351-4454 96.37% of all statistics are made up
Killing them by hand is the method I am currently using. The only reason I thought it was all
right to use CO2 was that I read it on a FAQ about killing rodents humanely. Is this another
issue that herpers are split on? So, if I use helium to kill the mice will they start talking in
a high pitched voice before they die <grin>? Anyway, what method do you use to kill the rodents?
If the helium is lighter than air, do you put them in a sealed container with a tube running into
the container?
Phillip
John Bucy
>
>I've got a question. I've heard that mice & rats can be humanely euthanized by using Carbon
>soda and shooting things up in the air. I believe that the chemical reaction for those two
>combined is:
It would probably be far less trouble to buy dry ice (in Nashville, it only
costs like $10 for a 25lb block.)
If it is that un-available in your area, I'd suggest that you rig
your 'gas chamber' in such a way that you have a CO2 generator connected
to wherever you put the mice. You probably don't want your herps eating
the baking soda/vinegar.
Kevin D. Quitt
>In article <316467dc...@netline-fddi.jpl.nasa.gov>,
>k...@emoryi.jpl.nasa.gov (Kevin D. Quitt) writes:
>
>>Wait'll you see them panic and run
>>around like mad.
>
>When the gas chamber is properly charged with the CO2
>gas before the animals are placed inside, there is no panic,
>no running, no nothing: they immediately pass out and are
>thoroughly dead within a minute or two.
I'm sorry, but that's not my experience, and nothing but nerve gas will cause
any animal to "immediately pass out". There are labs here that have nitorgen
gas feeds for various purposes. The rooms are equipped with oxygen monitor/
alarms, and the sign on the door says "two breaths of pure Nitrogen can cause
unconciousness"; this is pure rubbish. You can breath vacuum for longer than
that.
The only humane method I've seen for killing mice is a special purpose, very
high power microwave chamber: it kills them in under a second, with no damage
to their food value. Unfortunately, they're extremely expensive and so aren't
likely to be used by any but the largest breeders.
--
#include <standard_disclaimer.h> http://emoryi.jpl.nasa.gov/
_
ji...@clark.net
What is wrong with just throwing them against the wall really hard. I think the snakes had
an easier time getting them down with the little mousy skeletins all smashed. Zero pain and
suffereing for the mouse, rarely made a mess (don't throw pinkies too hard), still warm. I
never tried doing this with rats, although I found the tails sometime come off if you swing
them too hard.
As a side note, I have started buying frozen mail order, but that was to save money, not because
I had a problem with the little buggers.
--
-jimi
John A. Wiley
: On 5 Apr 1996 10:18:47 -0500, mel...@aol.com (MelissK) wrote:
: >In article <316467dc...@netline-fddi.jpl.nasa.gov>,
: >k...@emoryi.jpl.nasa.gov (Kevin D. Quitt) writes:
: >
: >>Wait'll you see them panic and run
: >>around like mad.
: >
: >When the gas chamber is properly charged with the CO2
: >gas before the animals are placed inside, there is no panic,
: >no running, no nothing: they immediately pass out and are
: >thoroughly dead within a minute or two.
: I'm sorry, but that's not my experience, and nothing but nerve gas will cause
: any animal to "immediately pass out". There are labs here that have nitorgen
: gas feeds for various purposes. The rooms are equipped with oxygen monitor/
: alarms, and the sign on the door says "two breaths of pure Nitrogen can cause
: unconciousness"; this is pure rubbish. You can breath vacuum for longer than
: that.
Well... Having been accidentally trapped for a short period of time in
two instances in rooms which were in the first case flooded with CO2 and
in the second case Chlorine Gas, I'd be forced to disagree with you...
In the case of CO2, I'd say 'twas just about two breaths... The first was
normal, the second was a deep gasping reflex... That's about all I got...
In both cases, someone happened to be there to pull me back out... If
they hadn't been there, I'd probably *not* be typing this note to you
now... As far as vacuum goes... Id find it pretty difficult to believe
you'd breathe vacuum *at all*... If you happen to find yourself introduced
to hard vacuum quite suddenly, I'd suggest quickly looking up the word
"embolize" in the nearest dictionary, as this will quite likely become
the most important word in your vocabulary in less than about 15 seconds...
: The only humane method I've seen for killing mice is a special purpose, very
: high power microwave chamber: it kills them in under a second, with no damage
: to their food value. Unfortunately, they're extremely expensive and so aren't
: likely to be used by any but the largest breeders.
Ummmmmm... Yeah... I guess if I were going to pick my method of death,
being cooked via RF would probably be the death of choice... (*not*)
Enjoy,
-jw
Paul E. Turley
method we used in the lab was to place the rat,mouse even rabbit on a
smooth tabletop holding it by the tail or hind leg. Run your thumb of the
other hand up the spine until your thumb touches the base of the skull.
Press down here with a firm sharp movement. This separates the spine and
spinal cord from the temporal foramen of the skull paralizing the rodent
instantly. The best part with this method is the rodent still has a
twitch reflex which entices even the most finnicky of herps to feed.
Admittedly, its a little grim, but it works great.
Paul E. Turley
k...@emoryi.jpl.nasa.gov (Kevin D. Quitt) wrote:
>On 5 Apr 1996 10:18:47 -0500, mel...@aol.com (MelissK) wrote:
>
>>In article <316467dc...@netline-fddi.jpl.nasa.gov>,
>>k...@emoryi.jpl.nasa.gov (Kevin D. Quitt) writes:
>>
>>>Wait'll you see them panic and run
>>>around like mad.
>>
>>When the gas chamber is properly charged with the CO2
>>gas before the animals are placed inside, there is no panic,
>>no running, no nothing: they immediately pass out and are
>>thoroughly dead within a minute or two.
>
>I'm sorry, but that's not my experience, and nothing but nerve gas will cause
>any animal to "immediately pass out". There are labs here that have nitorgen
>gas feeds for various purposes. The rooms are equipped with oxygen monitor/
>alarms, and the sign on the door says "two breaths of pure Nitrogen can cause
>unconciousness"; this is pure rubbish. You can breath vacuum for longer than
>that.
>
>The only humane method I've seen for killing mice is a special purpose, very
>high power microwave chamber: it kills them in under a second, with no damage
>to their food value. Unfortunately, they're extremely expensive and so aren't
>likely to be used by any but the largest breeders.
>
JENNIFER LESKO
carbon dioxide causes intense pain and hemorrhage from the upper respiratory
tract, so they euthanize their mice and rats with a comination of carbon
dioxide and oxygen. Apparently, this combo allows them to become anesthetized
and then the dose is increased to a fatal dose. The lab workers
decided to test these effects by taking a slight
whiff--they said it was painful and assume the mice feel the same. I also
took part in euthanizing some chickens in pure carbon dioxide. They thrashed
all around--I imagine it wasn't a comfortable way to die if indeed these
claims of pain and hemorrhage are true.
>> >> >I've heard that mice & rats can be humanely
euthanized by using Carbon>> >Dioxide, but I don't really want to buy a bottle
of CO2 from a welding>> supply>> >or get dry ice from>> >an ice cream
supplier.>> >> So buying lots of vinegar and baking soda and making a mess is
Rebecca Sobol
<turl...@gold.tc.umn.edu> writes:
All that effort just to kill a little rodent? No need. A excellent
method we used in the lab was to place the rat,mouse even rabbit on a
smooth tabletop holding it by the tail or hind leg. Run your thumb of the
other hand up the spine until your thumb touches the base of the skull.
Press down here with a firm sharp movement. This separates the spine and
spinal cord from the temporal foramen of the skull paralizing the rodent
instantly. The best part with this method is the rodent still has a
twitch reflex which entices even the most finnicky of herps to feed.
Admittedly, its a little grim, but it works great.
Paul E. Turley
This can be done with a mouse or a small rat, although I use something more
solid than my hand (like a screwdriver for example) to hold the rodent
behind the head, and then pull up sharply on the tail with the other hand.
Just try it with a jumbo rat though. I can't do it on even a medium sized
rat much less a large one. And the smash against the wall trick??? You
haven't lived until you've had a really mad, large rat try to climb up it's
own tail trying to get you because you didn't bash it hard enough. I can
do gas, it works and I don't get bit.
Rebecca Sobol
Chuck Tart
---
It's the 4th WAY or it's NO WAY!
Chuck Tart
RickReynolds
effective and inexpensive. I can dispatch 100 mice in a ten gallon
aquarium in about a minute with four of these things. The first does seem
to cause some excitabilty which lasts a 15 seconds. Next they lapse into
a subdued state marked by heavy breathing, which stops at about 60
seconds. I don't know how humane it is for the mice, but in this way I
can quickly dispatch a months supply of lizard food and spare myself the
unpleasantness of bonking them over the head (not always very effective
either).
Lobot
Kevin D. Quitt
>All that effort just to kill a little rodent? No need. A excellent
>method we used in the lab was to place the rat,mouse even rabbit on a
>smooth tabletop holding it by the tail or hind leg. Run your thumb of the
>other hand up the spine until your thumb touches the base of the skull.
>Press down here with a firm sharp movement. This separates the spine and
>spinal cord from the temporal foramen of the skull paralizing the rodent
>instantly. The best part with this method is the rodent still has a
>twitch reflex which entices even the most finnicky of herps to feed.
>
>Admittedly, its a little grim, but it works great.
Good. I've got several thousand mice here...
Kevin D. Quitt
>As far as vacuum goes... Id find it pretty difficult to believe
>you'd breathe vacuum *at all*... If you happen to find yourself introduced
>to hard vacuum quite suddenly, I'd suggest quickly looking up the word
>"embolize" in the nearest dictionary, as this will quite likely become
>the most important word in your vocabulary in less than about 15 seconds...
I'm well aware of the phisiological implications, and while there has been
little testing on humans (for obvious reasons), extrapolations from animal
tests indicate that a human could "breath vacuum" for about a minute before
permanent damage occurs.
Also, WRT CO2, apparently different mixtures of the gas have differing
effects. Reportedly, a 70% CO2 and 30%O2 mixture quickly anaesthetises
and kills the animal. The same mixture does not work with non-toxic
gasses.
John A. Wiley
: >As far as vacuum goes... Id find it pretty difficult to believe
: >you'd breathe vacuum *at all*... If you happen to find yourself introduced
: >to hard vacuum quite suddenly, I'd suggest quickly looking up the word
: >"embolize" in the nearest dictionary, as this will quite likely become
: >the most important word in your vocabulary in less than about 15 seconds...
: I'm well aware of the phisiological implications, and while there has been
: little testing on humans (for obvious reasons), extrapolations from animal
: tests indicate that a human could "breath vacuum" for about a minute before
: permanent damage occurs.
Well... Kevin... Since I've *seen* the human "physiological" effects
of a sudden pressure differential on human lungs first hand, I'd have
to basically state that you are wrong... A human introduced suddenly to
hard vacuum would not have a terribly long time to try to equalize
the pressure differential... You'd have to be terribly well disciplined
to be able to equalize quickly enough to prevent "blowing a gasket"...
PLEASE DON'T ANYONE TRY THIS AT HOME...
If you don't believe me... Pop on down to the local SCUBA shop...
Rent a SCUBA rig... Find yourself a six foot deep swimming pool...
Dive in... Fill both lungs while lying in the six foot end (I mean
fill 'em good), and then stand up while holding your breath...
That'll give you about a 2:1 change...
AGAIN... DON'T Try this at home... Im only trying to make a point...
: Also, WRT CO2, apparently different mixtures of the gas have differing
: effects. Reportedly, a 70% CO2 and 30%O2 mixture quickly anaesthetises
: and kills the animal. The same mixture does not work with non-toxic
: gasses.
Yep... And if we increase the pressure in the "coffin" to 6 atmospheres
and pump in a little N2... Sheesh...
Enjoy,
-jw
ma...@hilo.trusted.com
Kevin D. Quitt <k...@emoryi.jpl.nasa.gov> wrote:
>On 5 Apr 1996 10:18:47 -0500, mel...@aol.com (MelissK) wrote:
>
>>In article <316467dc...@netline-fddi.jpl.nasa.gov>,
>>k...@emoryi.jpl.nasa.gov (Kevin D. Quitt) writes:
>>
>>>Wait'll you see them panic and run
>>>around like mad.
>>
>>When the gas chamber is properly charged with the CO2
>>gas before the animals are placed inside, there is no panic,
>>no running, no nothing: they immediately pass out and are
>>thoroughly dead within a minute or two.
>
>I'm sorry, but that's not my experience, and nothing but nerve gas will cause
>any animal to "immediately pass out". There are labs here that have nitorgen
>gas feeds for various purposes. The rooms are equipped with oxygen monitor/
>alarms, and the sign on the door says "two breaths of pure Nitrogen can cause
>unconciousness"; this is pure rubbish. You can breath vacuum for longer than
>that.
There is a big difference between an atmosphere of pure nitrogen and
an atmosphere with a high CO2 content: You notice the high CO2 content.
Try breathing into a plastic bag for a few minutes-- you start to
build up the CO2 and you have to *get* *air*.
This feeling is caused by the high concentration of CO2 in the air you
are breathing. These hypothetical mice are experiencing the same thing
you get if you put them in a plastic bag to suffocate them.
In an atmosphere of pure nitrogen, you can dissipate the CO2 quite
effectively -- the problem is you get no oxygen in return. The
nitrogen itself is non-toxic.
People have died and nearly died from walking into rooms that are
filled with pure nitrogen. It *does* take more than two breaths,
but you can be easily overcome before you realize there is a problem.
That's why the oxygen monitor is so loud when you trigger it --
the people it is trying to alert my well be pretty groggy.
Probably the scary signs are just to get people to pay attention.
It's kind of like the "Caution: LASER" signs at a lab I used to
work in -- the cleaning staff was afraid to go in a room with a 2
mW HeNe (bright, but not dangerous if you can blink) but it also
kept them away from 5 watt Argon laser that left burn marks on the
wall. :)
John A. Wiley
: Probably the scary signs are just to get people to pay attention.
: It's kind of like the "Caution: LASER" signs at a lab I used to
: work in -- the cleaning staff was afraid to go in a room with a 2
: mW HeNe (bright, but not dangerous if you can blink) but it also
: kept them away from 5 watt Argon laser that left burn marks on the
: wall. :)
Stainless Steel/Cinder Block Beamstops! ;-)
Ain't light fun!
Enjoy,
-jw
Mark Patrick
: This can be done with a mouse or a small rat, although I use something more
: solid than my hand (like a screwdriver for example) to hold the rodent
: behind the head, and then pull up sharply on the tail with the other hand.
: Just try it with a jumbo rat though. I can't do it on even a medium sized
: rat much less a large one. And the smash against the wall trick??? You
: haven't lived until you've had a really mad, large rat try to climb up it's
: own tail trying to get you because you didn't bash it hard enough. I can
: do gas, it works and I don't get bit.
I, too, find the hold-the-mouse-behind-the-head-with-a-pen-and-tug-the-tail
method quick and efficient for mice, but have never had success trying this
method on rats of any size. Not to be gross, but their tails just don't
seem to be as strong as the mice, and in combination with their sturdier
neck structure, the tail winds up coming off in my hand, and the rat remains
very much alive, not to mention really angry!
For rats of any size, I find that placing them in a sturdy sack (pillow-
case size), and swinging them very hard into the floor (from over my
shoulder, like chopping wood) works the first try every time, with only
occasional minor bleeding. Trying to do this holding them by the tail
results in the kind of problems Rebecca described (due to inability to
get up enough velocity for an instant kill), or worse if the tail happens
to separate during the swing.
Mark
ccusers
>From: k...@emoryi.jpl.nasa.gov (Kevin D. Quitt)
>
>I'm well aware of the phisiological implications, and while there has been
>little testing on humans (for obvious reasons), extrapolations from animal
>tests indicate that a human could "breath vacuum" for about a minute before
>permanent damage occurs.
>
an ABSENCE of any and all air. There is nothing to breath, you might make
the motions of breathing, but you would not be taking anything in. You are
essentially holding your breath until you explode, which takes less than a
minute though I have heard that you can last about half a minute before
death from massive embolism occurs.