LLoyd Lemke died?
zorg
Cryptosporidium thru my collection, and he refused to do shit about it,
that was 10 years ago, and it saddens me that such an eminent breeder
who contributed so much passed away.
David Wilson
his stuff after He left.
On another note: cryptosporidium is part of most snakes normal gut
flora. Sometimes it reaches levels that need to be dealt with, but is
still going to be present.
Dave
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
Scott Solar
> On another note: cryptosporidium is part of most snakes normal gut
> flora. Sometimes it reaches levels that need to be dealt with, but is
> still going to be present.
>
> Dave
>
Do you really consider crypto acceptable?
Where did this data that it is part of most snakes gut flora come from?
Scott
David Wilson
one can help. I will stand on the statement that it is normal flora.
Treatment should also be reserved for only a serious out-break.
http://www.biosci.ohio-state.edu/~parasite/cryptosporidium.html
I am interested in what others think on this note. I think that by
medicating every possible bug into non-existance, You are setting the
animal up for a fall. Nothing, short of the buy in the bubble, lives in
such a sterile environment.
Dave.
Scott Solar
>
> Scott, although I can't find the specific page I refer to, maybe this
> one can help. I will stand on the statement that it is normal flora.
Thanks for the followup.
> Treatment should also be reserved for only a serious out-break.
If your right then this certainly is the correct approach.
> http://www.biosci.ohio-state.edu/~parasite/cryptosporidium.html
I'll check it out in awhile.
> I am interested in what others think on this note. I think that by
> medicating every possible bug into non-existance, You are setting the
> animal up for a fall. Nothing, short of the buy in the bubble, lives in
> such a sterile environment.
>
> Dave.
Or some pathogen free laboratory animals. You are correct about this.
We cannot make sterile (biologically not reproductively) animals. Their
immune system will crash and opportunists will kill them.
However, I would prefer crypto free animals if possible because it is
zoonotic and my insurance will not cover crypto! :0
Thanks;
Bill Savary
> > flora. Sometimes it reaches levels that need to be dealt with, but is
> > still going to be present.
> >
>
>
> Where did this data that it is part of most snakes gut flora come from?
>
Crypto is far from the only normal gut flora that is relatively harmless
in normal conditions, but pathogenic in abnormal conditions. The
"abnormal" conditions that can cause some of these organisms to become
dangerous frequently relate to stress. If you subject an animal to
stress, normal flora can become pathogenic.
Scott Solar
>
>
> Crypto is far from the only normal gut flora that is relatively harmless
> in normal conditions, but pathogenic in abnormal conditions. The
> "abnormal" conditions that can cause some of these organisms to become
> dangerous frequently relate to stress. If you subject an animal to
> stress, normal flora can become pathogenic.
Agreed. However, if you get crypto its not treatable. If you get some
other herp borne disease they mostly are treatable.
Crypto is some nasty cr@p.
Scott
Snakela...@webtv.net
conditions, it can be quite pathogenic. With it affecting the digestive
system. It can cause & does cause illness & death especially in young
reptiles. Signs & symptoms include; restlessness, anorexia, weight
loss, intestinal intussusception, enteritis, regurgitation, mid-body
swelling, gastritis & bronchopneumonia (Frye, Godshalk, Brownstein,
Upton & Barnard). This disease can go through a breeding facility with
amazing speed if good technique isn't practiced. It is passed via
infective oocysts in feces. It is homoxenous & capable of recycling
within the host. I would classify it as a disease requiring treatment or
many animals will die. snake lady
"Medicine to produce health, has to examine disease" Plutarch
http://community.webtv.net/SnakeladysFarm/SnakeLadysReptile0
Snakela...@webtv.net
the sulfa drugs. snake lady
John Schmitt
--
John Schmitt
Manasota Herpetological Society
http://home1.gte.net/mdg
<Snakela...@webtv.net> wrote in message
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Snakela...@webtv.net
John Schmitt
one particular strain is the cause of problems in the digestive tracts of
snakes. By saying true I was referring to the strain that we as snake
keepers need be concerned with. I had a bout with cryptosporidia a couple
of years ago and was told by two different vets that there was no effective
treatment. The Paramomyacin not only cured the problem, it took care of it
in a little over a week. I have researched this malady pretty thouroughly
and have never found anyone or any publication that has listed any other
particularly effective treatment. I would be very interested in any other
info you have though.
--
John Schmitt
Manasota Herpetological Society
http://home1.gte.net/mdg
<Snakela...@webtv.net> wrote in message
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Snakela...@webtv.net
learn about coccidiosis & more specifically Cryptosporidium. According
to an article written by Upton, McAllister & Freed titled,
"Cryptosporidium spp.. in wild & captive reptiles", in the Journal of
Wildlife Disease, as well as an article by Drownstein, Standbed,
Montalli titled, "Crypto in snakes with hypertrophic gastritis", in
Veterinary Pathology & another by Godshalk. MacCoy, Patterson, titled
"Gastric hypertrophy associated with crypto in a snake" in the Journal
of the American Veterinary Medical Association there are at least 4
species of Crypto that infest the reptile's GI tract & are pathogenic.
Severe proliferative necrotizing gastritis due to Crypto along with
secondary bacterial infections have occurred in several reptile genera
including snakes, iguanas & geckos. A very important feature
distinguishing Crypto from other coccidia is the lack of host
species-specificity. This means that the same species of Crypto can
infest many types of retiles as well as their food supplies, especially
mice & possibly man. The oocysts shed by reptiles with Crypto are both
thick-walled which are considered transmission agents, & thin-walled
oocysts which are autoinfective & maintain the life cycle within an
infested individual. Severity of the infestation & resulting infection
are related to reinfection with thin-walled oocysts, repeated exposure
to the thick-walled oocysts & the immune status of the infested host.
Mr. Lemke's reptiles may well have been asymptomatic (which is why all
breeders & dealers should do additional fecal testing beyond just simple
floatation analysis) but when exposed to stress & environmental change
developed active disease. Crypto is a very mysterious disease in
reptiles & all of us have much to learn. Some reptiles are carriers &
infected but may not have any clinical signs, others may have chronic
active disease with or without symptoms & still others have lethal
disease. Treatment with many different drugs has been tried including;
sulfonamides, Spiramycin & paromomycin with all having limited success.
Because crypto infections are so deadly to patients with AIDS & damaging
to the cattle industry much research is ongoing. Johns Hopkins
University School of Medicine & the Baltimore Zoo are currently doing
promising research into developing an ELISA test for fecal antigen &
antibody tests as well as a serum antibody test. This is a very exciting
area of microbiology/parasitology which I'm very interested in. If you
have info you'd like to share with me, I would enjoy sharing. Do feel
free to e-mail me. I have currently been presented with a type of
coccidia to identify, it is crypto but not one with which I'm familiar.
Because it is crypto, drug therapy should probably be undertaken. I
would also recommend flushing the stomach with lactated Ringers solution
& looking for oocysts or thickening of the GI tract. I doubt the client
will desire to spend the money for a vet to do the needed testing &
treatment nor are they likely to put the animal down even though it
presents with diarrhea & regurgitation. People's unwillingness to spend
money on their herps for good medical care is one of the reasons that
research on reptilian disease & treatment isn't progressing at a very
fast pace. Most of the treatments used on reptiles are based on
mammalian studies. There are few really good reptile vets because they
lack clients. The crypto infested animal is Iguana iguana. I may well
never be able to identify the type of crypto involved. And the client
may not be willing to pay for additional testing. Many people would
rather buy a new animal for less money. Crypto disease processes are a
very interesting area of study with which much is yet to be learned & so
little is understood, especially in regards to to the actual number of
species that are implicated in disease, diagnostic testing & successful
treatment of this challenging disease process. As herp lovers, we must
make a commitment to our animals to provide good vet care. They depend
on us for their care & we still have much to learn about these
fascinating creatures. snake lady
Snakela...@webtv.net
out you web site. I have to give you my congrats on a very well done
site. Very nicely done & some thing to be proud of having a hand in.
sincerely, snake lady
VaHerper
earlier this year and I was quite upset about it. While the initial fecals
were negative, the snake was so far gone there was no hope in providing
successful treatment.
The vets with whom I spoke were also of the opinion that crypto was
untreatable. They felt only the symptoms could be treated; that is,
dehydration from excessive diarrhea, an inability to absorb nutrients from
food items and the resulting weight loss.
Also of interest, as you pointed out, was the threat crypto posed to persons
with immune disorders, to include Lupus, FMS, and HIV.
Thanks for a great post !!!!
Dennis
--
Dennis Desmond
VaHerper
http://vaherper.future.easyspace.com
<Snakela...@webtv.net> wrote in message
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> fascinating creatures. snake lady
David Wilson
Now I gots ta know.....Did You just recite this from off the top of Your
head ( which would blow My mind ) or research this before the
presentation? Either way, what an awesome post!!
Dave
Snakela...@webtv.net
memory but I did need to find the journals so I could quote where some
of my knowledge on the number of species currently believed to be
pathogenic was gleaned from. Thanks for the compliments. I thought I
might be attacked by some members. Thanks for proving me wrong. It was a
nice pre-Thanksgiving gift. snake lady
Snakela...@webtv.net
do present a deadly threat to immuno-suppressed humans, we're not sure
if people can catch the types that are pathogenic to snakes. Another one
of the many unknown facts regarding crypto. There is so much to learn
about this very mysterious disease. Thanks for sharing. Crypto is often
missed when fecals are done because most parasitologists or vets do just
a fecal floatation & it is unlikely to be found with just a floatation.
In reptiles presenting with diarrhea &/or midbody swelling, I also do
more testing, i.e., Carbol fuchsin-DMSO staining or
Decolorizer-counterstaining. I sincerely hope that I never have this
very scarey bug in my collection. The only way we can beat this nasty,
is to share all info that we can with other herpers, vets,
parasitologists & the CDC. It looks like prey animals are often the
vector, especially infected mice, snakes & lizards fed to our snake. I
currently screen all the prey animals I raise: mice, rats & rabbits.
Best wishes & have a great Turkey day. snake lady