Jackson Chameleon Breeding Questions
Mike Fry
tb...@airmail.net wrote:
>
> I have a mature pair of jackson chameleons. I was wondering what I
> should do to get them into breeding condition if anything and what the
> male/female does to attach the other. I have noticed when placed
> close together the female looks stressed but rocks from side to side.
> The male starts this little robot walk towards her. They are still in
> separate but I would like to have some babies in the house. These are
> the only chameleons we own and we have no experience breeding lizards,
> only birds. Any advice would be appreciate.
When 'receptive' the female will turn very green and stay green when the
male is around. She will not do the rocking thing.
When my female is receptive, she turns a sort of day-glow green color,
maybe even more green than the male. When the male bobs his head at
her, she returns the head bob and will even approach him with her tail
lifted -- not too subtle.
I did nothing special to get mine in 'season'. But come spring time,
they started to get to go outside on days when it is not too warm or too
cool, maybe that is what stimulated her. (He did not need any
stimulation!)
Hope this helps.
Mike
--
__________________________________________
"There are no passengers on Spaceship Earth. We are all crew."
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tb...@airmail.net
StickyFarm
Your female rocking back and forth is a sure indication that she at one
time or another has already been bred. This particular species has been
known to carry three separate broods of babies at the same time. The first
time bred will take 9 months gestation, then 3 to 5 months after that she
will give birth again. Amazing baby machines!! Although there is no
receptive color the female gives off when she is ready to breed, she
usually will act very passive and willing. At times it is a act of rape on
the males part, and this should not be interfered with. Although looking
very violent, it is natural and will not hurt the animals. The female has
the ability to store sperm for around two years and will show the rocking
motion when approached by a male. The male should be removed at this point
until she gives birth as it is very stressful on the female to be
constantly chased by the male. This type of long term stress will cause
health problems. Try to get the female as much natural sunlight as
possible during gestation(use common sense) keeping her within her temp
.parameters. We don't know why yet, but this seems to be necessary to
produce healthy babies for more than one or two generations.
Steve Davison, Sticky Tongue Farms
Mike Fry
StickyFarm wrote:
>
(snip)
> usually will act very passive and willing. At times it is a act of rape on
> the males part, and this should not be interfered with. Although looking
> very violent, it is natural and will not hurt the animals. The female has
Well, I guess, Steve, that you are in the *extreme* minority to believe this
statement. *ALL* literature I have read indicates that the animals should be
separated at any indication that the female is nonreceptive.
I have only witnessed attempted forced copulation from males that had not had
contact with females for long periods. In the wild, males can have contact with
many females. This is different in captivity, where people have single pairs,
very often.
If you have data to support the notion that forced copulation is natural in wild
populations, I would be interested in hearing about it. But until that time, I
will only breed my females when they are receptive. And I strongly suggest that
others do the same.
StickyFarm
>Mike Fry wrote:
>Well, I guess, Steve, that you are in the *extreme* >minority to believe
That is the difference there ol Mike-o. You read the literature that is
out there. I breed ( I have 67 Jacksonii in my breeding program right now
and I have observed this act myself, many times, for years. How many
Jacksonii have you bred? I have bred hundreds since 1990. Oh yea, you can
read the literature yourself in our new book if it is the written word you
need. I have been the minority before. So was C.Columbus. Is the world
flat? I think not.
>I have only witnessed attempted forced copulation from >males that not
had contact with females for long periods. >In the wild, males can have
I have no idea what your point is here what so ever. I have observed the
Jacksonii in the wild. Have you? I have witnessed hundreds of breedings.
You have witnessed how many with Jacksonii? One? Just the other day?
Right? I have seen receptive breedings, and very violent breedings. Both
happen, both get the job done. It is the personality of the animal being
bred. If the female is holding sperm, she may not want to be bred. If the
male takes her, she will have a better brood. If not, a sperm retention
brood. Usually first time animals will be receptive. After that, It is
usually forced. The animal in question here is showing gravid display. If
the male will not breed her he should be removed until she gives birth.
After birth, she should be re-bred. If you want a high sperm count for the
next round. With the Jacksonii, the next round can be three broods down
the road. This female will not be receptive. Not in the wild or captivity.
It may seem cruel to people, but these are not people and should not have
human values placed on them.
>If you have any data to support the notion that forced >copulation is
natural in wild populations, I would be >interested in hearing about it. (
snip)
We witness breedings every day here. It is about as normal as making
breakfast. I don't have any data for the data heads. But if you want to
learn how to breed Jacksonii, I can tell you how. You don't have to listen
and I could not care less. I don't think I was giving you advice anyway
was I? I hope I can help the person that asked for it. They can ether
believe you, owner of a few chameleons and correct me if I am wrong, NEVER
bred Jacksonii before. Or me, the owner of the largest breeding facility
for chameleons in the world. Again, no skin loss here. Believe what they
will.
>I will breed my females when they are receptive. And >strongly suggest
that others do the same.
try to put down good breeding info that others with open minds can use.
You close yours all you want. You only will not succeed. I know this is
the only glory you have in your life as you are just beginning to learn
about chameleons. But Ken K. told me along time ago," don't discard any
observation anyone makes about these animals. Even a first time owner can
see something you may have over looked." I have always tried to remember
that.
Steven Schafer
StickyFarm wrote:
> will give birth again. Amazing baby machines!! Although there is no
> receptive color the female gives off when she is ready to breed, she
> usually will act very passive and willing. At times it is a act of rape on
> the males part, and this should not be interfered with. Although looking
> very violent, it is natural and will not hurt the animals. The female
What!!!!???? People please do not head this advise. If the
female is not receptive DO NOT MATE HER. Chameleons are incredibly
succeptable to stress and that is about as stressful as you can get.
It may occur in the wild, but the lifespan in the wild is much shorter
and fewer animals survive due to such "matings". Again only mate your
female when she is receptive.
For more information on jackson's chameleons get the Chameleon
information Network back issue on jackson's and please subscribe. That
is currently the best source of information on chameleons. Also
consider joining the chameleon listserv. Information on the listserv
and the chameleon information network can be found at the URL in my
sig.
Steve Schafer
st...@orsp1.adm.binghamton.edu
Binghamton, New York
StickyFarm
O.K. Mike,
Please tell me where it is written that a female Jacksonii#1 has receptive
coloration.#2 must show this coloration in order to breed, #3 must be
receptive in order to breed. And do not use the CiN as fact as it is not.
It is a publication written on observation by hobbyists. Use scientific
literature only. I am not on the listserv anymore because I got tired of
armatures like yourself disagreeing with everything I said. Waist of time.
I still read it. And I e- mail the good breeders I want to talk to. I
think it very childlike for you to post half of my post and make trouble
when I am no longer there to defend my post. And to post a snip of
information just to make yourself look good is real asinine. You are truly
the jerk everyone says you are.
Let me make the statement perfectly clear so others will understand it.
The people who truly breed Jacksonii will definitely agree with it.
If a female Jacksonii is a virgin, she at one time in her life be
receptive and breed several times. She will get to a point where she is
done with this and turn a non-receptive color( sort of army jungle
camouflage) and have a non- receptive motion when approached by a male.
(rocking from side to side) At this point the female should be separated
from the male as constant pursuit from the male when a female cannot get
away can cause long term stress. After birth of the first brood of babies,
The female should be re- introduced to the male for a short period of time
to mate. The female may not like this showing gravid display, rocking back
and forth, ect. But the male will usually take her anyway. This will not
harm her in any way. But it will insure a strong sperm count for the
future. The second group of babies are already half grown in the uterus at
this time and this mating will not help the second brood, but the third
brood is just starting to develop at this time and can use a good shot of
sperm to fertilize as many eggs as possible. Without this violent mating,
the baby count will be small if any. If the female is to be left un mated,
she will continue to lay empty sacks. She will eventually become
submissive again after a few years. This to a breeding farm is a waste of
time. I prefer to keep my females fertile. There a few species of
chameleon we do this to. If you want to breed C.Parsonii, you will wait
forever for the female to be submissive. It is always rape. One that you
may not want to try this with without supervision is the C.calyptratus.
This could lead to injury. But the Jacksonii will not hurt each other. You
may not want to try this and that is fine with me. Different species do
different things. But the purpose of this thread is to share information.
These are my observations. Take it or leave it. Again , I don't care.
pat
in the last year or so i've also bred hundreds of jacksons. i've found
that they take to breeding if i increase the misting cycles. i've also
been trying puting two or three males in a cage with several females.
oddly, after "fights" the submissive males will usually breed with the
first female they come across after the alpha male is removed. just my
experience.
pat
Mike Fry
StickyFarm wrote:
(snip)
> Well Mike-O, you breed any thing you want. Again I don't care. But don't
> try to put down good breeding info that others with open minds can use.
> You close yours all you want. You only will not succeed. I know this is
> the only glory you have in your life as you are just beginning to learn
> about chameleons. But Ken K. told me along time ago," don't discard any
> observation anyone makes about these animals. Even a first time owner can
> see something you may have over looked." I have always tried to remember
> that.
Before anyone tries to follow this advice, I strongly suggest that you read the
comments from other breeders on the Chameleon list. FWIW, STF was nearly thrown off
the list a while back for making these wild claims and not being able to support them.
In the wild, female chameleons can get away from aggressive males. In captivity, where
they are confined to cages, escape is a non-option. A receptive female *will not* hiss
and gape. One of the challenges of breeding any species is recreating their cycle to
the point where receptive breeding can take place.
Mike
--
________________________________________________________________
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James Corell
On Mon, 29 Jul 1996, Mike Fry wrote:
> StickyFarm wrote:
> (snip)
> > Well Mike-O, you breed any thing you want. Again I don't care. But don't
> > try to put down good breeding info that others with open minds can use.
> > You close yours all you want. You only will not succeed. I know this is
> > the only glory you have in your life as you are just beginning to learn
> > about chameleons. But Ken K. told me along time ago," don't discard any
> > observation anyone makes about these animals. Even a first time owner can
> > see something you may have over looked." I have always tried to remember
> > that.
>
> Before anyone tries to follow this advice, I strongly suggest that you read the
> comments from other breeders on the Chameleon list. FWIW, STF was nearly thrown off
> the list a while back for making these wild claims and not being able to support them.
>
> In the wild, female chameleons can get away from aggressive males. In captivity, where
> they are confined to cages, escape is a non-option. A receptive female *will not* hiss
> and gape. One of the challenges of breeding any species is recreating their cycle to
> the point where receptive breeding can take place.
>
> Mike
In support of Mike, everyone interested in Malagasy animals go out and
rent the National Geographic video on Makagascar. We can all then see
for ourselves what exactly happens when a female chameleon is unreceptive
(in this case a female F.pardalis I think (though it's been a while)). Jamie
Mike Fry
StickyFarm wrote:
>
> O.K. Mike,
> Please tell me where it is written that a female Jacksonii#1 has receptive
> coloration.#2 must show this coloration in order to breed, #3 must be
> receptive in order to breed. And do not use the CiN as fact as it is not.
> It is a publication written on observation by hobbyists. Use scientific
> sperm to fertilize as many eggs as possible. Without this violent mating,
> the baby count will be small if any. If the female is to be left un mated,
> she will continue to lay empty sacks. She will eventually become
> submissive again after a few years. This to a breeding farm is a waste of
> time. I prefer to keep my females fertile. There a few species of
> chameleon we do this to. If you want to breed C.Parsonii, you will wait
> forever for the female to be submissive. It is always rape. One that you
> may not want to try this with without supervision is the C.calyptratus.
> This could lead to injury. But the Jacksonii will not hurt each other. You
> may not want to try this and that is fine with me. Different species do
> different things. But the purpose of this thread is to share information.
> These are my observations. Take it or leave it. Again , I don't care.
> Steve Davison,
> Sticky Tongue Farms
I sent a slightly different reply via e-mail. . . but will respond briefly here:
I will leave it.
1) Your comments on C. parsonii are contrary to what you have previously stated.
You have earlier bosted about your 'breakthrough' technique for getting your female
C. parsonii receptive (getting them to see males combat). Now you say that your
females have never been receptive. So which is it? Have you pioneered a
breakthrough breeding technique for C. parsonii? Or have you just been letting them
get raped?
2) CIN (which, by the way, is a great organization which sets very high standards
of care for chameleons) is not the only source of information about not breeding
non-receptive females. This is stated in *EVERY BOOK AND PAPER I HAVE* relating to
chameleon reproduction. I would need to list my whole library.
3) The goal of successful chameleon reproduction is to allow the animals to go
through their natural breeding cycles (from receptivity through delivery). If you
are so impatient that you consider this a waist of time, you should get out of the
business, IMO.
pat
I'D have to go along with steve on this one. i think "forced" breeding.
is natural and ok. true a dark color is surely a sign of stress, are we
(the arrogant human species) sure it has no other meanings. i cry when
i'm in pain and sometimes when i'm happy, but mostly when i'm in pain.
same response, difference source.
mike,
i to have observed the bright lite green, almost florescent (sp. ?)
green in one of my females. i keep a daily log, and in it a noted this
color change when a male was placed with her. i also have note that she
was rocking and had her mouth open in a threatening manner. i'd define
"threatening" as thrusting forward as if to bite.
so......
just a couple of things i've seen, pat......friend to all.
***** to the original question. *****
since my first bit of advice probally did no good. since you only have a
pair. i would seprate the two. so they can't seen each other. and once
a month put the male in the female's cage for a day. a "commando" type
breeding raid, if you will. make sure to only use the female's cage . as
stated before they are easily stressed so in my opinion she could use the
home field advantage. also, if she already is gravid she should have no
problem fighting him off for just the one day.
steve.....mike......
hope this helps
aloha pat
StickyFarm
Thank you pat, great advise. I knew there was a true breeder out there
some where. These rumers have to be stoped so people can breed the
Jacksonii. Please E-mail me your phone number. I would like to call you
and talk. I like to find people like you to learn with. Every observation
is valid right?
aloha
Steve, Sticky Tongue Farms
Menifee, Ca.
Mike Fry
What Pat described and what you describe are somewhat different. Pat mearly
commented that chameleons can give off 'mixed signals'. This can be true at
the beginning and end of their receptive cycle. This is different from
saying, "It is a waist of my time to wait for my females to become receptive."
It is also different than receommending to the world that their females need
not be receptive to be mated. Following this 'advice' someone is bound to end
up with a dead chameleon.
Also - you stated that you only do this to produce larger litters. Do you
have any evidence that larger litters is better (or that this statement is
even true!)?
If you are interested in having this conversation with 'true breeders', why do
you not take this to the chameleon list? There are a large number of great,
logical, scientific minds who are involved with chameleon breeding. Are you
even allowed to post to the list any more?
While you are at it, could you explain the contradictions with your C.
parsonii breeding? I am very interested in hearing this, since I have three,
young, unrelated animals. So I pay very close attention to anything related
to Parson's breeding. I am trying to figure out which of your stories to
believe. Do your females become receptive when they see males combat
(remember, your 'breakthrough' technique) or are your females not becoming
receptive?
Those sorts of contradictions make anything you say difficult to believe. So
please explain.
StickyFarm
Yes Mike,
About Parsonii, It was never stated that the battle that the males do has
anything to do with the females what so ever. During the spring, the males
start to bob their heads and chase the females. The females simply walk
away. The lazy male will just let her walk away. When another male is
introduced to the colony, the males will through there tail over their
head, gape, and walk stiff legged. The colors get incredible. The victor,
will keep the colors and start chasing the nearest female while the lesser
will turn dark and go off somewhere and hide. The females do not change
their position at all . They still try to leave. The male, with hormones
raging, no longer takes no for an answer and pursues her very
aggressively. He will then take her and mate her. She sometimes will try
to bite and squirm away, but as with most chameleons, when actual
copulation takes place, she will calm down and the act will be completed.
The females, after a day or so will turn yellow dotted when a male is near
and rock (shaking greatly a large Ficus tree) side to side. The male
usually will heed this warning, but sometimes will take her anyway.
Without this interaction, I have never been able to get the parsonii to
breed in captivity. Ken K. uses a mirror but he is the only one I know
that has had success with this. But then again he does wonderful things
with chameleons.
The reason I no longer post on the listserv to talk to real breeders is
that there are very few breeders on there. I already know the ones that
know anything and believe me, there are some good ones also. Getting
insults from you was becoming a negative part of my very positive life. I
spend alot of my time trying to help people breed chameleons in captivity.
I lecture at universities and herp clubs when I am invited. My phone is
always ringing with brain pickers needing help. I don't mind this at all
because the more people I can help, the more chameleons I can help. My
life is full of helping others and believe me, it gets taxing sometimes
explaining Chamaeleo 101 one more time. But I will still do it. Because I
remember where I was when I got chameleon fever. Phliep Just was coming
out with the little white book. That is all we had. We met Ken K. and he
got us going in the right direction. The rest is observation of thousands
of animals. Alot of people find these observations very useful. All you
ever did to me was argue and purposely anger me. The final straw was I had
spent two weeks getting together information from my wife about
C.calyptratus and the over eating thing every one was so interested in
getting Data on. My wife keeps very good records. I do not. She was
allowing me to access hers for the group. But Mr. Shafer had to also be
rude. So at that time, I said to myself, screw it. If they don't want to
know, let them do years of breeding and find out for themselves! I still
read the stuff posted. I like the new guy that is giving advise to
everyone and is asking what cage to use at the same time. The listserv to
me is a few that actually breed, a few that want to breed, and alot that
are afraid to post because you will treat them as you treated me. Most
have E-Mailed me and told me this. Some people are afraid of being flamed
and embraced. I hope you can learn a few people skills so more will post
on your listserv because it is a great idea. Lynn Raw and Doug Dix, James
Cokindolfer, Robert Velton, are all great herper's that I have talked to
for years. Don't scare them away. My ideas are different. It does not make
them wrong. I just try to express what works for us and we do have the
largest chameleon farm in the world so were not all wrong. Alot of the
information you disagree with is simply new information. I also used to
believe that you would wait until a female is receptive before introducing
her to a male. We have found this to be false in most species. You get all
your information from the books that are out there so alot of this is not
your fault, but the fault of out dated information.
Mike Fry
StickyFarm wrote:
>
> Yes Mike,
> About Parsonii, It was never stated that the battle that the males do has
> anything to do with the females what so ever. During the spring, the males
> start to bob their heads and chase the females. The females simply walk
> away. The lazy male will just let her walk away. When another male is
> introduced to the colony, the males will through there tail over their
> head, gape, and walk stiff legged. The colors get incredible. The victor,
> will keep the colors and start chasing the nearest female while the lesser
> will turn dark and go off somewhere and hide. The females do not change
> their position at all . They still try to leave. The male, with hormones
> raging, no longer takes no for an answer and pursues her very
> aggressively. He will then take her and mate her. She sometimes will try
> to bite and squirm away, but as with most chameleons, when actual
Again, Steve, this is a completely different account than was first presented.
Originally, this was stated as a way of getting the females receptive. For a
complete list of other contradicitons, please see the mailing list archives.
It is unfortunate that you seem to be unable to keep your 'stories' straight.
Most people who do not tell the truth at least do so consistently.
(snip)
> ever did to me was argue and purposely anger me. The final straw was I had
> spent two weeks getting together information from my wife about
> C.calyptratus and the over eating thing every one was so interested in
> getting Data on. My wife keeps very good records. I do not. She was
> allowing me to access hers for the group.
(snip)
With regard to the C. calyptratus study. . . first it was yours, then it was
J.C.'s, now you say it is *Linda's*!? Whew! I am getting dizzy! But I guess
this is just more of the same.
It is unfortunate that if you have anything of value to offer the chameleon
community that it gets lost in all of that. . . ah. . . confusion.
(snip)
> on your listserv because it is a great idea. Lynn Raw and Doug Dix, James
> Cokindolfer, Robert Velton, are all great herper's that I have talked to
> for years. Don't scare them away. My ideas are different. It does not make
> them wrong. I just try to express what works for us and we do have the
> largest chameleon farm in the world so were not all wrong. Alot of the
> information you disagree with is simply new information.
(snip)
You are right. These are some great names. And there are plenty of other great
names you did not mention. The sad thing is, Steve, if Lynn, Doug, Lyle or
several others suggest something new, I usually try it. I will take their
advise on food, housing, husbandry, breeding any day. Just got some coffee
plants at the recommendation of Doug the other day. They are great! I do not
find most people on the group reluctant to accept new information. On the
contrary, there is a lot of new information shared on the list every day. There
has recently been some great discussion of Ca, UVA, UVB, D3 and their
relationship to propogation. Some of the best chameleon chat I have had the
opportunity to listen to, in fact.
Mike
p.s. I was looking through Dr. Fredic Frye's 'Reptile Clinician's Handbook'.
He has a list of toxic plants compiled by the San Diego Turtle and Tortoise
Society which lists plants to generally be avoided. He made some modifications
for his publication. He lists Fig (Ficus benjamina) due to the foliage and
latex sap.
Steven E. Schafer
StickyFarm wrote:
>
<Snip>
> The reason I no longer post on the listserv to talk to real breeders is
> that there are very few breeders on there. I already know the ones that
Sorry the reason you don't post is that the crap you were posting was
refuted by many of the posters. You have posted on chemical processes
that you are clueless about. You have posted numerous times about how
great your MinerAl is and how you don't need to use anything else with
it, yet when it was compared in a study, one you actually said proved
your point, there was absolutely nothing that proved your product to be
better. You tried to use the listserv as a self promotional
advertisement and that was totally uncalled for. You slandered another
business, that competes with you, who does not have access to defend
themselves on the list. You posted about numerous conclusive studies
you have done and produced no data. Your business practices are
questionable at best. You can not even lie consistently.
You have no idea who is on the listserv at all, and if you did you
would not have been posting all your bullshit. Did you every get a list
of who was on there? I have talked with numerous people on the list who
don't post and just sit there and laugh at your posts, and these are big
time breeders. Half of them didn't want to post at all because you were
there.
I recieved numerous e-mails from people who wanted you off the list. I
did not recieve one person in support of you. I even asked everyone to
email me what they thought since I do not like the idea of censorship.
You had no supporters and the list has been much more productive since
you have been gone.
I will put together a nice little package of all your posts and if
anyone wants to see it I'll send it to them. All the posts to the
listserv are archived and searchable so anyone can check them out and
just see how big of an ass you really are. You just don't know when to
quit.
> know anything and believe me, there are some good ones also. Getting
> insults from you was becoming a negative part of my very positive life. I
> spend alot of my time trying to help people breed chameleons in captivity.
> I lecture at universities and herp clubs when I am invited. My phone is
> always ringing with brain pickers needing help. I don't mind this at all
> because the more people I can help, the more chameleons I can help.
If this is the type of information you are sharing you aren't helping
anyone.
<Snip>
> ever did to me was argue and purposely anger me. The final straw was I had
> spent two weeks getting together information from my wife about
> C.calyptratus and the over eating thing every one was so interested in
> getting Data on. My wife keeps very good records. I do not. She was
> allowing me to access hers for the group. But Mr. Shafer had to also be
> rude. So at that time, I said to myself, screw it. If they don't want to
> know, let them do years of breeding and find out for themselves!
You are really pathetic. You said on the listserv that all the data
came from Jame Cockendolpher (sorry james if the spelling is wrong).
When did the study all of a sudden become yours?
> I still
> read the stuff posted. I like the new guy that is giving advise to
> everyone and is asking what cage to use at the same time. The listserv to
> me is a few that actually breed, a few that want to breed, and alot that
> are afraid to post because you will treat them as you treated me. Most
> have E-Mailed me and told me this. Some people are afraid of being flamed
> and embraced. I hope you can learn a few people skills so more will post
> on your listserv because it is a great idea. Lynn Raw and Doug Dix, James
> Cokindolfer, Robert Velton, are all great herper's that I have talked
You know the listserv is there to help people. Each person on the
listserv has their specialty. There are chemists, biologists,
beginners, breeders, etc. Then there was you, mister I know everything
about everything but can't produce anything to support it. When you
posted you always posted as fact, this is how it is, not this is how it
might be. Get off you high horse and try and make a contribution that
is meaningful. Some might find it interesting that lately you have been
calling people and running a smear campaign against me because of the
listserv, very unprofessional.
My appologies to this news group's readers. I do not like doing this,
but I like watching people get sucked in by a snake even less. If
anyone is interested in checking out STF's posts on the listserv you can
find the archive at:
http://orsp1.adm.binghamton.edu/~steve/ECBC/Listserv
I will not sit around and listen to this BS. I hope this can all just
go away and no one will have to listen to it anymore. Again I am sorry.
Steve Schafer
st...@orsp1.adm.binghamton.edu
Steven E. Schafer
I apologize for my last post. Some people just seem to be able to
raise my blood pressure better then others. If anyone chooses to follow
STF's advice that is their choice, and frankly I will not be responding
to any more of his posts. If anyone on this news group is interested in
chameleons and would like to gain information from differing view points
and backgrounds please join the Chameleon Listserv. There are
aproximately 140 people subscribed now varying from beginners to
experts. The listserv is not a breeders' or a beginners' forum, it is a
forum for all people interested in chameleons to carry on discussions.
If anyone is interested in joining the listserv you can do so by sending
an e-mail to:
list...@orsp1.adm.binghamton.edu
With the BODY (not the subject) of the message contaning:
subscribe CHAMELEON (your name)
Where (your name) is replaced with your full name. If you have any
problems subscribing please e-mail me and I can help.
Also stop by the web site (listed below) and add yourself onto the
contacts list if you are currently keeping chameleons. The contacts
list provides information on the species individuals are keeping. There
is also a page on captive bred animals that are available and if you are
a private breeder you can add yourself to this page.
Steve Schafer
st...@orsp1.adm.binghamton.edu
http://orsp1.adm.binghamton.edu/~steve/ecbc.cgi
Douglas E. Dix
"Steven E. Schafer" <st...@orsp1.adm.binghamton.edu> wrote to STF:
snipped
> ......I recieved numerous e-mails from people who wanted you (STF) off the list. I
>did not recieve one person in support of you. I even asked everyone to
>email me what they thought since I do not like the idea of censorship.
>You had no supporters and the list has been much more productive since
>you have been gone.
> I will put together a nice little package of all your posts and if
>anyone wants to see it I'll send it to them. ....
>I will not sit around and listen to this BS. I hope this can all just
>go away and no one will have to listen to it anymore. Again I am sorry.
> Steve Schafer
Obviously this has come to a head! In an effort to try to avoid the
blowout that occurred on the listserv, I'd like to put my $0.02 in.
(I just saw this thread tonight, thus my delay in posting).
I saw a snip of the STF post on the chameleon listserv and responded
somewhat like Mike Fry's first responce here. I then got an e-mail
from STF giving me the entire post. While my initial reaction was
also "this is absurd!" w/ more thought, I think I see where STF is
coming from.
FWIW - this is my interpretation of the info: Some species do have
the female require the male to chase and capture the female to
stimulate ovulation and/or otherwise induce breeding. If prevented
from mating, they do eventually give this up and mate w/ whatever male
comes along. But this is not the "normal" breeding method . In
nature, individuals tend to chose their mates - they don't just take
whoever happens to be nearby. Its not uncommon for the female to
have the male prove his vigor (common for insects, some fish, a few
mammals (don't know a herp example offhand). It's within the realm
of possibility, C. jacksoni (and other chameleons) follow a somewhat
similar method. Thus to that extent, I feel STF may have a point.
The primary problem I have w/STF's advise is that it's too vague
(this is a perfect case of "a little knowledge is a dangerous thing").
The most common reason for a female to act unreceptive is that she
truely is unreceptive (not just testing the male). In these cases
she could be seriously injured by a "raping" male (one bent on
breeding no matter what). I personally haven't had C. jacksoni
display this behavior (I've only kept one pair) and maybe C.
jacksoni males don't bite females - I don't know. But other
species, such as C. calyptratus do and can inflict serious injury
including death. Also, a vigorously struggling female being held
by a male could still be injured from the males grasping claws (they
are quite sharp).
Therefore while STF's experience w/ C. jacksoni may lead them to
believe these "forced" matings are ok and maybe even advantageous, I
personally feel it's inappropriate for the novice breeder (and
possibly the rest of us as well) to allow female's to be bred in this
manner unless we are POSITIVE both the animals in question are indeed
intent on mating (this may prove very difficult if the female is
"acting" unreceptive ). Since these females will likely become
receptive if forced to wait long enough w/out a mate (under the proper
environmental stimuli) I would rather be safe than sorry and thus opt
to wait.
As far as the chameleon listserv and STF, I feel obligated to say in
STF's defence - there was no "vote" to censor STF or get him not to
post. He was asked to stop promoting his products (as this is not
the proper use of the listserv) and to not post info as coming from
"studies" to be posted at a later date (which didn't come). I
personally don't think STF's motives are as sinister as some others
suggest, I do however wish STF would be more careful when presenting
"facts".
Steve Schafer is correct in pointing out the chameleon listserv
represents a very diverse group of people - just because they don't
all post doesn't mean they don't read the posts or contact people
directly rather than through the listserv. These listservs are
probably some of the best things that have happened to captive
husbandry in a long time. Comparing each others succeses and
failures, ideas and theories is the BEST means of increasing our
overall knowledge. Hopefully we can all agree to just disagree when
our "theories" conflict. I think if we would post WHY a particular
piece of info should be viewed w/ caution we would all benefit from
the discussion. I realize its hard when we see someone post info
which we feel is dangerous to follow, but perhaps we can just say we
feel the posted info may be ill-advised to follow (and give detailed
raesons) without attacking the poster. To his credit, I felt Mike
seemed to try this some on the listserv - if STF would try the same
maybe we can all learn from the disagreements.
Sorry this was so long - and late!
Doug
--------------------------
Its what you learn after you know it all that counts =:o
(don't know who said it first?)
Douglas E. Dix, PhD.
Wildlife Toxicologist
Deer Fern Farms Consulting
Arlington WA 98223
dougl...@douglasdix.seanet.com
Mike Fry
Douglas E. Dix wrote:
(snip)
> Obviously this has come to a head! In an effort to try to avoid the
> blowout that occurred on the listserv, I'd like to put my $0.02 in.
> (I just saw this thread tonight, thus my delay in posting).
>
Thank you, Doug, for your, as always, clear head! I have to admit that I have a
few hot buttons that, as everyone knows, STF is capable of pushing.
People can agree respectfully. I will try harder in the future.
Mike
tracym...@gmail.com
> >
> > I have a mature pair of jackson chameleons. I was wondering what I
> > should do to get them into breeding condition if anything and what the
> > male/female does to attach the other. I have noticed when placed
> > separate but I would like to have some babies in the house. These are
> > the only chameleons we own and we have no experience breeding lizards,
> > only birds. Any advice would be appreciate.
>
> male is around. She will not do the rocking thing.
>
> When my female is receptive, she turns a sort of day-glow green color,
> maybe even more green than the male. When the male bobs his head at
> her, she returns the head bob and will even approach him with her tail
> lifted -- not too subtle.
>
> I did nothing special to get mine in 'season'. But come spring time,
> they started to get to go outside on days when it is not too warm or too
> cool, maybe that is what stimulated her. (He did not need any
> stimulation!)
>
> Hope this helps.
>
> --
> __________________________________________
> "There are no passengers on Spaceship Earth. We are all crew."
> mailto:mik...@skypoint.com
> http://www.skypoint.com/members/mikefry/
> http://www.worthington.com