PIT RULES(American Pit Bull Terrier Fighting Rules)
_gameboy_
well, as promised, here are the rules to organized, professional
dog fighting in the united states. one can find slight regional
variations to these rules, but they won't vary drastically.
i welcome all comments both pro and con, and i sincerely hope that
with the rules known to everyone, we can engauge in intelligent
debate. i ask that everyone who wishes to join the debate read the
rules thoroughly and think about them. do not just fire off the
first emotional knee jerk reaction that crosses your mind. and
please, let's not resort to ad hominem attacks. hopefully this will
shed some light on the historical breeding goals of american pit
bull terrier breeders and maybe even dubunk a few myths(perhaps i'm
expecting too much). my posting these rules should in no way be
construed as promoting the sport of dog fighting as it is illegal
and one could go to jail and face hefty fines. i am posting these
so that people who thought they knew it all might learn a little more.
these rules were shamelessly copied from Dr. Carl Semencic's book
_The World Of Fighting Dogs_. those of you who are interested in
further reading on this subject matter are strongly encouraged to
read this book.
PIT RULES
USED FOR CONTESTS DECIDING
THE GAMER OF TWO DOGS
(GAME = PLUCKY, UNYIELDING IN MANNER,
READY AND WILLING)
Rule 1: The principals shall select a referee who is
familiar with the rules and who is satisfactory to both
sides. The referee will then appoint his Timekeeper. Each
handler will select a man to act as his chief second or
cornerman, whose duties are to wash the opponent's dog, and
to remain near this dog's corner as an observer.
Rule 2: Each handler is to furnish two clean towels and a
suitable blanket, to be used by his opponent. Either
handler may demand that the opposing handler and his
cornerman bare their arms to the elbows; also the handler
may taste his opponent's dog's water before or after the
contest(up until the referee has rendered his decision on
the contest).
Rule 3: No water, sponges, towels or any other accessories
are allowed in the pit at any time, except the referee who
shall have in his possession an adequate breaking stick and
a pencil; also a copy of these rules. The pit shall not be
less than 14 feet each way, whenever possible, with a
canvas-covered floor, upon which has been painted or chalked
on, 12.5 feet apart, and with a center-line half way between
the scratch-lines.
Rule 4: The referee shall toss a coin to be called by the
handlers. The winner of the toss shall decide which dog
shall be washed first and also have the choice of corners.
Rule 5: The dogs shall be washed at pit-side in warm
water and some approved washing powders and then rinsed.
The first dog to be washed shall be brought in and held in
the tub by his handler and washed by the opposing cornerman.
When pronounced clean by the referee, the dog shall be
rinsed clean in a separate tub of warm water and toweled
dry as possible, then wrapped in the blanket provided and
carried to his appointed corner by his handler and accompanied
by the man who washed him. These are the only two persons
allowed near this dog until the dogs are Let Go. The other
dog shall now be brought in and held in the tub by his handler
and washed(in the same water) by the opposing cornerman. When
this dog is pronounced clean by the referee and rinsed clean
and toweled dry, he shall then be carried to his corner by his
handler and accompanied by the man who washed him.
Rule 6: The referee shall now ask "Are both corners ready?"
If so, "Cornermen, out of the pit"..."Face your dogs"...
"Let Go." The timekeeper shall note the time and write it
down for future reference.
Rule 7: Any dog who jumps the pit is automatically the loser
of the contest and no scratches are necessary, and no dog is
required or allowed to scratch to a dead dog. The live dog
is the winner.
Rule 8: Should either dog become fanged, the referee shall
instruct the handlers to take hold of their dogs and try
to hold them still so the handler can try to unfang his dog.
If this isn't possible, the referee shall separate the dogs
with the proper breaking stick and then unfang the dog using
a pencil. The referee will then order the handlers to set
their dogs down near the center of the Pit and approximately
two feet apart. The referee will then order "Let Go." This
in no way constitutes a turn or a handle and has no bearing of
the future scratches.
Rule 9: This is to be a fair scratch-in-turn contest until
the dogs quit fighting, then rule 13 shall take over. The
first dog to turn must scratch first; thereafter they are to
scratch alternately(regardless of which dog turns) until
one dog fails to scratch and thereby loses the contest.
Rule 10: To be a fair turn, the dog accused of turning
must turn his head and shoulders and his front feet away
from the opponent and regardless of whether or not the
dogs are otherwise touching.
Rule 11: The referee shall call all turns, although either
handler may ask for a turn on either dog. If the referee
rules there has been a turn, he will instruct the handlers to
"pick up free of holds" as soon as possible, and should
either dog accidentally get a hold again, the handlers shall
set the dogs down immediately and make a continued effort
to pick up the dogs, free of holds. When picked up, the
dogs must be taken to their respective corners and faced
away from their opponent. The Timekeeper shall note the
time and take up the count(not out loud) and also the
referee shall notify the handler whose dog must scratch.
Rule 12: At 25 seconds, the Timekeeper shall call out
"Get Ready." At these instructions each handler must toe
his scratch-line and face his dog toward his opponent with
his dog's head and shoulders showing fair from between
his handler's legs, and the dog's four feet on the canvas
floor. At the 30 seconds, the Timekeeper calls out "Let Go."
and the handler whose dog must scratch must instantly
take his hands away from all contact with his dog and also
release all leg pressure from against the dog's body.
And the dog must instantly start across and the handler
must remain behind his scratch-line until his dog has
completed his scratch or the referee has ruled upon it.
There is no time limit on the time required to complete this
scratch. But, when released at the words "Let Go," the
dog must start across at his opponent. He may waver from
direct line, fall down, crawl ... drag or push himself
across, so long as he makes a continued effort and DOES
NOT HESITATE OR STOP until he has reached out and touched
his opponent. The opposing handler may release his dog any
time he sees fit after the order to "Let Go"; however, he
must do so as soon as the dogs have touched each other.
Rule 12A: This is an alternate rule for those handlers who
wish to have their dogs counted out in the corner. It is
the same in all respects as Rule 12, except that after 30
seconds, when the Timekeeper calls out "Let Go," the
referee shall count our loud, at as near one-second intervals
as possible, ONE...TWO...TIME(three seconds), and the
dog must be out of his corner and on his way before the referee
calls "time," or lose.
Rule 13: If the dogs have apparently quit fighting,
whether they are helpless, tired out or curred out, and
regardless of whether both dogs are down or one dog is
down and the other dog is standing over him, but neither
dog has a hold, the referee shall ask it they are willing to
scratch-it-out to a win or not. If so, they shall proceed to do
so, but if either handler is unwilling, then the referee shall
instruct the Timekeeper to note the time and call time in
two minutes. It either dog breaks time, then nothing has
changed, but if, at the end of the two minutes, the dogs are
in the same relative positions and neither dog has a hold,
the referee shall order the handlers to handle(PICK UP FREE
OF HOLDS) their dogs. When picked up, the dogs shall be
taken to their corners and the corner procedure is the same
as in a normally called turn and handle. If there have been
no previous turns or handles to establish the order
of scratching, the dog who has been the longest without a
hold(usually the down dog) to be scratched first, then,
as soon as free of holds, the dogs shall be picked up and
the other dog scratched. Should one dog fail or refuse
his scratch, then the dog who failed shall lose the contest.
If both dogs fail to scratch, the referee shall call it a
no contest, but should both dogs make their initial scratches,
the handlers by mutual agreement may ask the referee for
a draw decision. The referee will then rule it a draw.
Otherwise the contest shall continue, but in this manner:
any time the dogs are not in holds and not fighting, the
referee shall order the dogs to be handled and scratched
alternately until one dog fails to scratch and thereby loses.
No attention is paid to turns(after rule 13 is invoked)
except as a possible chance to handle.
THE REFEREE HAS FULL AUTHORITY AND HIS DECISION IF FINAL
IN ALL MATTERS.
Rule 14: Fouls that will be just cause for losing a contest:
A. To leave the pit, with or without the dog before the referee
has ruled.
B. To receive anything from outside the pit, or allow anyone
outside the pit to touch or assist the dog.
C. To push, drum, throw or spank, or in any way assist a dog
across his scratch-line, except by encouraging him by voice.
D. To step across a scratch-line before the dog has completed
his scratch or the referee has ruled on it.
E. To stomp on the pit floor or kick the pit sides, yell at of
give orders to the opponent's dog, or(in the referee's
opinion) do anything to distract or interfere with either
dog while scratching or fighting to affect the outcome
of the contest.
F. To interfere with the opposing handler or touch either dog
until the referee gives an order to handle the dogs.
G. To use a "Rub," "Poison," or "Hypo" o neither dog.
Rule 15: If there should be any outside interference before
the contest has been concluded, the referee has full authority
to call it a "NO CONTEST" and shall name the time and place
the contest is to be resumed and fought out to a referee's
decision.(The same referee shall preside.) Also, the referee
shall insist that the dogs be washed and weighed(in the
referee's presence), and the dogs shall weigh at the weights
specified in the original articles of agreement, and to do
this as many times as necessary to conclude the contest.
VARIATIONS TO THE RULES(Cajun)
Instead of rule number 12A in which a dog has three seconds
to leave his corner, he us usually given ten seconds to
cross to the other dog.
A 30-second out-of-hold count is generally used, and the
down dog must always scratch first(unless both dogs are
down with neither in a position of advantage).
The pit may be covered with carpeting rather than canvas
(rule 3), the scratch lines may consist of some of the
modern tapes, and the central line between the scratch
line is often omitted.
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_gameboy_
Cindy Tittle Moore
is "fanging" and "scratching"?
--Cindy
--
Cindy Tittle Moore (the other half of Mary Healey's brain)
*** tit...@netcom.com *** http://www.io.com/user/tittle/ ***
WAGGERY Terrell's Chocolate Deduction CGC--Hershe LABRADORS
------- Delby's Wood Nymph at Waggery CGC--Angel ---------
Southern California Labrador Rescue: c/o Doyne Ladwig @ 714-646-5225
_gameboy_
well, i have posted the rules of organized dog fighting as promised,
but i find it odd that no one has posted anything to challenge these
rules. cindy has posted a question, but other than that, no one has
said a word. am i to take silence as everyone now realizes that
organized dog fighting is not nearly as bad as they had been lead to believe?
i think not. come on people, voice your opinion based on the facts.
please, be it pro or con, post something logical and thought out.
cindy here are the answers to your questions:
fanging: this is when a dog's tooth pierces his own lip and
stays there. imagine the skin around the dog's mouth
folding into the mouth as he tries to bite his opponent.
if he clamps down hard enough and fast enough his
canine may go through his own lip.
scratching: this is simply the dog showing that he is willing
to continue to fight. the third, fourth, and fifth sentences
in rule 12 more or less sums up what it is for a
dog to "scratch". trust me, a dog who no longer wants
to fight will not move forward toward his opponent in a
timely fashion when it is his turn to "scratch". end of match.
jenn...@rain.org
: well, i have posted the rules of organized dog fighting as promised,
: but i find it odd that no one has posted anything to challenge these
**** SNIP ****
: i think not. come on people, voice your opinion based on the facts.
: please, be it pro or con, post something logical and thought out.
**** SNIP ****
My grandmother taught me that if you couldn't say something nice
you shouldn't say anything at all. Maybe everyone else here had
grandmothers with the same philosophy!
--
Jeri Jennings Coastal SoCalif. (NorthStar Dalmatians)
jenn...@rain.org
eesn...@uiuc.edu
>rules. cindy has posted a question, but other than that, no one has
>said a word. am i to take silence as everyone now realizes that
>organized dog fighting is not nearly as bad as they had been lead to believe?
>i think not. come on people, voice your opinion based on the facts.
>please, be it pro or con, post something logical and thought out.
Speaking for myself, the rules confirm that dog fighting is every bit as bad
as imagined and the fact that anyone would try to justify such an activity
would put them beyond the reach of anything rebuttal which is logical or
thought out. Evidence the convoluted logic that a dog can choose not to
participate. It would seem, to those who have evolved beyond the amoeba
stage, that "organized dog fighting" is barbaric, sadistic, and inhuman as
well as inhumane.
I realize that the above is just the kind of response you were hoping to
elicit, so I thought I'd just make your day.
Chris Kosmakos
: well, i have posted the rules of organized dog fighting as promised,
: but i find it odd that no one has posted anything to challenge these
: rules.
Thanks for posting the rules. Lack of response does not necessarily
indicate lack of interest, or conversion. I'm thinking about it, but it
is really pretty hard to picture what an actual match looks and feels like
from the rules. I will admit that it sounds very different from the
common media depiction. For an recent example of typical depiction pick up
a copy of Grave Matters by Leo Adler in the mystery book section.
- Lynn
--
chri...@netcom.com
ban...@cruzio.com
interesting. The difinitions for scratching and fanging would also be
helpful.
Celeste
> - Lynn
> --
> chri...@netcom.com
--
bandit Gangwere systems and embedded engineering
topdown design associates "Waltzing where mere mortals fear to look"
ban...@cruzio.com
(408) 458-9228 Box 7830, Santa Cruz, CA 95061
_gameboy_
here is a copy of some e-mail that i have been exchanging with one reader.
he requested a summary of a pit fight because he couldn't understand the
rules. well, here it is. this is the truth from someone who has
participated in the sport at the highest level. two things that have
surprised me thus far:
first, the lack of people who are unwilling to debate this based on
the facts. there is only one person who has putting forth a reasonable
attempt at debating this. second, the number of relativly positive
responses that i have received. most of them admit that it isn't something
that they would want to get involved in but they also said that organized
professional dog fighting is nowhere near as bad as they had been lead
to believe. like i said before lets debate this based on the facts, not
emotional, media hyped, nonsense. i've posted the rules, and now i've
posted a summary of a match...if nothing else, you will know what really
goes on.
ps to the person with the oh, so polite grandmother. my grandmother(rip)
was irish and simply _LOVED_ to debate, so take your best shot.
>Take a look at the rules. They are full of jargon (fanging, scratching,
>etc.), that are not defined anywhere. The football analogy is
>apt**suppose I told you that after 3 downs, a team could elect to punt,
>without telling you what a down is or a punt is? How much time would you
>waste trying to figure it out? How did you learn about footbal? By
>reading the rules? Hell, I'd bet that most football players haven't read
>the rules. Also, there are rules (such as the ones concerning a drop kick
>or a free kick) which are irrelevent, for all practical purposes.
[ snip ]
>You didn't answer the question: Why not post what _happens_ in a typical
>dog fight? It's much more important to the debate to know how often dogs
>are injured, how seriously, if deaths occur, etc., than to know the rules.
in order to understand what happens in one of these contests one must
first understand the origin of the dog and individuals who originally
pit one dog against another. there is a lot of speculation on this
issue but the overal consensus among 'professional' dog fighters is
that it was a way to find out which dog was the toughest. throughout
history, men have fought one another in caged contests, with gloves,
wihtout gloves, with rules, without rules, etc... the TOUGH man
was worshiped and to be emulated in the days when it was more
accepted by society. so, how did they define tough?
one aspect of being tough was gameness. two men would duke it out
and if one of them QUIT the dual was over. even if the man who quit
was physically stronger he was not considered to be tougher.
in other instances it was not only who was stronger physically but
who was smarter and in yet others it WAS physical. so, we now have
three components of a fight, physical, mental and gameness, or heart!
the heart is that intangible men woshipped back then, the gameness
to never quit until there was nothing left.
these men also expected the same of their dogs. the dog that would
quit in a fight was no longer kept for breeding. as a result there
was an evolution that took place where the dogs would continue to
fight even while taking a beating. now, gameness is not sufficient
when faced with a stronger and larger opponent so other things began
to evolve such as strength of bite, agility, and various other
things like fighting style, YES, style. as men learned more and
more they began to selectively breed for one characteristic over
another to the point that only game, athletic, hard biting winners
were bred. these dogs tended to be small since they were typically
matched in buildings, basements etc... most ranged from as little
as 15 pounds all the way up to 45 or 50 pounds. the reason for
this was simple. it's easier to physically pick up a small dog
in the heat of battle than a large one. so, what prevents the
person who is handling the dog from being bitten? well, that is
part of the evolution and something else that I will explain in
a moment. first let's examine being in a 16 by 16 foot square pit
trying to grab a dog that is the middle of a major battle. what
prevents the dog from biting the handler? well, it's because over
the many many years breeders selectively bred only those dogs that
would NOT bite the handler. but, there was something else they
were doing and didn't know it. it had to do with the most fundamental
instinct of all. the SURVIVAL instinct. the old timers believed that
a MEAN, VICIOUS dog was NEVER really GAME! PERIOD! a man biter
was put to death immediately. that is how strong their feelings were.
to better understand this we need to examine the survival instinct
as it applies to Wolves in the wild, and in order for THAT to happen
we need a scenario that commonly occurs in the wild. let's say that
a pack of wolves has just killed a deer and is in the process of
eating. since the dogs are very hungry they just start tearing away
at the carcass and eventually there will be a piece of meat that two
males, (just for argument sake), will want. well of course there
will be a conflict when that happens, right? the first thing one
wolf will do is to start something called "THREAT DISPLAY", by
showing his teeth and raising the hair on his back to appear larger
than he is. he might even growl to sound mean. this type of behavior
is used so that he does NOT have to fight. the idea is intimidation
first, then and only THEN will he actually fight. the reason for
this is the ever present SURVIVAL INSTINTS. being physically injured
could potentially risk life itself, hence "THREAT DISPLAY". You'll
also notice that the fights the DO happen are very short and almost
never result in debilitating injuries. again in the interest of
surviving. all the slashing teeth, rearing up on the hind legs
and so forth are variations on a theme. the AGRESSIVENESS is
therefore considered THREAT DISPLAY and as such is NOT, i repeat
NOT a desireable trait when crafting a cambat dog. therefore,
gameness and agressiveness are not the same. a game dog does
* NOT show his teeth
* NOT raise up on his hind legs
* NOT growl or make any noise other than maybe screaming or whimpering
due to the intense desire for physical contact
* NOT show agressiveness towards humans as this is yet again a
manifestation of THREAT display.
so, for people to say that my dogs are people agressive simply
because they have seen action in the pit is NOT because they are
stupid, just uninformed.
THE PIT CONTEST:
now we're ready for what really happens in the pit. let's examine
the dimensions first. a pit is typically 16 feet by 16 feet square
and about 2 1/2 to 3 feet high. the floor is usually a thick carpet
and the walls are made of wood. in the real world of TOP dog fighters
there are only a handful of individuals at one of these matches. there
is a referee, a second for each dog, a handler for each dog and a time
keeper. there is a SCRATCH line drawn diagonally from one neutral
corner of the pit to the other. a dog must cross that LINE to COMPLETE
his SCRATCH. there is normally a ten second time limit from the time
a dog is released until it crosses the scratch line. if he does not
cross the line in the alotted time then the other dog is declared the
winner.
HOW A MATCH BEGINS:
at the beginning of the match, both dogs are faced into their
respective corners by their handlers until the referee, also in the
pit asks the contestants to FACE their dogs. at that time the two
handlers turn 180 degrees and face each other. when that happens
the dogs get sight of one another and start to get pretty excited.
they both usually start trying to get away in order to go after the
other dog. the referee asks the handlers to release their dogs and
the match has begun. to the uninitiated it's a bit strange because
once the dogs make contact in the middle of the pit there is almost
not noise at all. no growling, no raised hair, no snapping. just
each dog trying to get a hold on the other. one might GRAB and ear
or a shoulder and try to wrestle the opponent to the ground. then,
the dominant dog will shake his head to try and punish the othe
dog. as the match progresses, with only the sounds of breathing,
the dogs will SWAP HOLDS, (i.e., take turns grabbing each other).
THE TURN:
at some point in the match one of the dogs might have second
thoughts about wanting to be there so will show some signs of
this by doing certain things. one of those THINGS that we look
for is the tail tucking. a sure fire sign that a dog is thinking
of NOT continuing. the most subtle sign but more reliable is
when a dog physically turns his head and shoulders away from his
opponent during combat. this is called a turn. it is up to the
handler of the OTHER dog to point it out to the referee. when
that has been done the referee anounces to the handlers that
a turn has been called and that they should handle their dogs
at the first opportunity. this opportunity comes when both
dogs are NOT in hold, (i.e., biting each other). this is when
each handler in unison will grab his dog by the nap of the neck
and put a hand under the stifle area to pick his dog up. each
handler then returns to their repective corners, much like boxing.
they must each face their dogs into the corner for 25 seconds and
then upon hearing the referee say face your dogs, turn and face
their dogs. the dog that turns first, must SCRATCH first. so,
the handler of the dog that was called for the TURN must then
release his dog first.
THE SCRATCH:
okay, the dog that turned first must now go across the scratch
line to PROVE that he still wants to dominate. if he doesn't cross
the line in 10 seconds then he loses and the opponent is declared the
winner. this is more often than NOT. or, the losing dog will
be too tired to complete the SCRATCH on time. again, this
terminates the match. if a handler were to try to physically make
his dog cross the line then again the match is over and the handler
is called for a FOUL.
>Q1: Does breeding for dog agressiveness lead to people agressivenes?
A1: already answered in detail above. NO, it does not because
agressiveness is not what we breed for, it is gameness. see
the part on THREAT DISPLAY. we basically have bred survival
instincts OUT of these dogs. i doubt they could survive in
the wild for long because they wouldn't know when to quit!
a better question would be, does breeding for gamenss lead
to people aggression?
>Q2: Are deaths common?
A2: very rare because one of the dogs will either be too tired
or simply refuse to fight anymore.
>Q3: Are injuries common?
A3: yes, they are. that is why i always have a ready supply of
lactated wringers, dihydrodexamethazone, various antibiotics,
surgical kit and plenty of bandages on hand. only 10% or less
make it to the pit so when they do they're very valuable. i
need a dog like that in my breeding program. I'll do anything
to save him/her.
>Q4: Are injuries severe?
A4: thay can be, but not as bad as you think. they don't look as
bad as a slice as seen by other breeds but they are deeper and
must be attended to immediately.
>Q5: What are the laws regarding dog fighting?
A5: when i started there were almost no laws at all and in some
places misdemeanors. so we just risked getting a ticket. now
it is considered a felony in MOST places.
Megan Cullis
Probably the reason that no one has replied is that we are struck
speechless by your callousness and complete disregard for canine life.
Dog fighting is not a sport.
It is a cruel, pointless excersise in which the "men" get some sort of
satisfaction (I guess) and the dogs simply get hurt. I know that you
will probably point out that your dogs DO get satisfaction by winning
but I am not arguing that dogs are by any means forced to fight,
many dogs are quite willing to oblige. What I am arguing is the
pointlessness of the act.
If you love your dogs, (I'm not saying you don't) you don't purposfully
put them in situations that will cause them harm. I love dogs and
don't like to see them hurt for ANY reason.
I have worked at the SPCA and have seen, firsthand, the losers of dog
fights. Many times the dogs are dumped at the side of the road, dead
or dying with many wounds, and not all of these wounds were inflicted
by the dog it was fighting.
I believe that you are in a very small minority of "caring" dog
fighters. The majority are in it for the money and the ego boost
of having a dog that will fight and kill other dogs. Most fights
are scruffy, nasty affairs taking place quickly in deserted parks
or buildings and when it is over, the people disappear.
The other side is that many dogs are stolen for the purpose of
training for fights. We own bull breeds and we are always very careful
with them. We don't breed any more because of all the people who
wanted a puppy "who will fight".
Pit-fighting is illegal, as well as being immoral, unethical and
downright cruel and all the posts in the world about the "caring,
concerned and professional" dog fighters and handlers will never
convince me that it is anything else but.
I just believe that dogs deserve better lives than the ones
in the pits.
_gameboy_
[ snip ]
HOW A MATCH BEGINS:
THE TURN:
THE SCRATCH:
_gameboy_
Megan Cullis <mcu...@wchat.on.ca> wrote:
>Probably the reason that no one has replied is that we are struck
>speechless by your callousness and complete disregard for canine life.
>
>Dog fighting is not a sport.
any more or any less than dog racing, horse racing, or hunting with dogs?
how do feel about the circus? ever been megan?
how about falconry? Do you know anything about falconry? look into
it sometime. drop a line to the us fish and wildlife service, they
should be able to tell you all about falconry as it is federally
regulated.
megan, I urge you to research these topics. think about them.
>It is a cruel, pointless excersise in which the "men" get some sort of
>satisfaction (I guess) and the dogs simply get hurt.
yes, fighting dog get hurt. so do hunting dogs, hearding dogs, and
racing dogs.
so do horses in races.
what's your point? are you against these activities as well?
> I know that you
>will probably point out that your dogs DO get satisfaction by winning
>but I am not arguing that dogs are by any means forced to fight,
>many dogs are quite willing to oblige. What I am arguing is the
>pointlessness of the act.
to each his own, I always say. personally, I don't see why in the hell
people would want to watch men and women drive around a track in a car
at 200 mph. people die every year at this sport. seemes pretty pointless
to me. but, to each his(her) own.
how about hearding/hunting/racing with dogs. pointless or not? why?
>If you love your dogs, (I'm not saying you don't) you don't purposfully
>put them in situations that will cause them harm. I love dogs and
>don't like to see them hurt for ANY reason.
>
depends on the dog. jack russell terriers were bred to rat and go to
ground after quarry. fiesty active little buggers. can they get hurt
or killed doing what they were bred and love to do? you bet they they
can. i have personally seen on jrt killed by a fox. but, right up to
the last moment he was doing what he loved to do. now, i am not saying
all dogs are game fighting dogs, but, some are and love doing what they
were bred to do.
>I have worked at the SPCA and have seen, firsthand, the losers of dog
>fights. Many times the dogs are dumped at the side of the road, dead
>or dying with many wounds, and not all of these wounds were inflicted
>by the dog it was fighting.
that is the thrust of all of my posts. these people are not professional
dog men. more likely than not, these are 20 year old know-nothings who
are matching there dogs "getto style"(ie no rules/making the dog fight
even when they don't want to).
>I believe that you are in a very small minority of "caring" dog
>fighters. The majority are in it for the money and the ego boost
>of having a dog that will fight and kill other dogs. Most fights
>are scruffy, nasty affairs taking place quickly in deserted parks
>or buildings and when it is over, the people disappear.
oh, really? care to tell me how you came up with this factoid?
sounds like some trumped up media charges. this is just the thing
that i am trying to get people to see past. megan, just because you
see/hear something on the local news doesn't mean it's true.
>The other side is that many dogs are stolen for the purpose of
>training for fights.
many? define "many". care to site a number? how about a study? or
is this something that you heard from a friend of a friend? again,
the folks that do this sort of thing are not professional dog men.
professional dog men are not interested in two-bit curs. often times
a game bred bulldog won't even mix it up with a cur. they only get
focused around other bulldogs. any real dog man knows that a cur is
no test at all, and will even do more harm in the long run as it will
teach a new bulldog bad habits.
> We own bull breeds and we are always very careful
>with them. We don't breed any more because of all the people who
>wanted a puppy "who will fight".
what do you mean "bull breeds"? i assure you that unless you have
grand champion game bred american pit bull terriers, professional
dog men will not be interested in your curs(no offense intended as
i am sure they are wonderful pets but they would be useless in the pit).
>Pit-fighting is illegal, as well as being immoral, unethical and
>downright cruel and all the posts in the world about the "caring,
>concerned and professional" dog fighters and handlers will never
>convince me that it is anything else but.
again, how do you feel about hunting/herding dogs?
how about dog/horse racing?
>I just believe that dogs deserve better lives than the ones
>in the pits.
i think the best, most fufilling life for a dog is to do that which
it was bred for.
Karl K. Whiteleather
: how about falconry? Do you know anything about falconry? look into
: it sometime. drop a line to the us fish and wildlife service, they
: should be able to tell you all about falconry as it is federally
: regulated.
That is the most incredibly stupid series of rationalizations I have ever
seen.
: yes, fighting dog get hurt. so do hunting dogs, hearding dogs, and
: racing dogs.
: so do horses in races.
: what's your point? are you against these activities as well?
I stand corrected. THAT is the most incredibly stupid series of
rationalizations I have ever seen.
K Whiteleather
--
"Never confuse the neglect of man with the wildness of nature."
-Whiteleather, 1994.
Bryan Hinkle
: I stand corrected. THAT is the most incredibly stupid series of
: rationalizations I have ever seen.
: K Whiteleather
: --
On the other hand you are adding nothing to the
discussion of value are you? Kindly explain how you
come to the conclusion that this particular series of
"rationalizations" is "stupid"?
Note also that I removed the rest of the groups ,why
cross-post this to five different newsgroups? Thats the
"stupid" thing here.
As far as the posters comparison to organized horse
racing etc. it remains a valid one ,as does the comparison
between the human combat sports and the subject at hand.
B.