Neutering to reduce aggression?
Jack Dean
male greyhound. Pacer is a retired racing greyhound that was
previously adopted. He was returned to us after he attacked the
family cat. He first went to another foster home, where he attacked
and injured another cat, and struck at the fosterer's dog (a rat
terrier), although he was by this time muzzled.
Since coming to my home, he has displayed a lot of dominance behavior
towards Kojak, my male greyhound. Behaviors include things like
standing over Kojak, tail up, some growling and snapping, but no
fights (so far). He has pretty much left Patti, my female greyhound
alone, and he has not displayed any dominance or aggression towards
people.
One of the unique things about Pacer is that the original adopters did
not want to neuter him, so he has had a vasectomy instead of the
normal castration. So my question to the net is how much will
castration reduce his dominant/aggressive tendencies, especially
towards other dogs? I not trying to eliminate his behavior towards
cats and small dogs. I am afraid that he probably was trained on live
lures, and is pretty much ruined for small animals to the point that
he could never be completely trusted. I will make sure that he goes
into a home that doesn't have other small (lure sized) dogs or cats.
And I will make sure that they know his history.
So what would you do? Leave it alone and let the hounds work out
their own pack order, or forestall a potential problem and fight and
neuter the dog? Would you neuter him right away, or wait and see who
is going to adopt him and offer to neuter him for the new adopters if
they want? Discussion invited.
--
Jack Dean de...@sweetpea.jsc.nasa.gov
Victoria Neff
>I am currently fostering somewhat of an anomaly: a dominant aggressive
>male greyhound. Pacer is a retired racing greyhound that was
>previously adopted. He was returned to us after he attacked the
>family cat. He first went to another foster home, where he attacked
>and injured another cat, and struck at the fosterer's dog (a rat
>terrier), although he was by this time muzzled.
>
>Since coming to my home, he has displayed a lot of dominance behavior
>towards Kojak, my male greyhound.
> ... lots of stuff deleted
Forgive me for asking this, I'm really not trying to be obnoxious, but
is there some redeeming characteristic of this dog that makes him worth
the effort? With all the good things you and others have said about
other greyhounds, and with so many being put down right and left everywhere,
is it worth it to keep this one? When a "better" one might be saved,
instead? One that would be more likely to be a good ambassador for the breed
and encourage others to adopt? As he is anomalous and unpleasant, mightn't it
be better to regretfully let him go?
Again, I'm curious, not trying to be snotty. And obviously it's easier
for me to ask than for someone else to have to make a really hard decision
in re this dog.....
MIS...@kentvm.kent.edu
Jack, I wouldn't know about nuetering but I would yell
when he was trying to push one of the other hounds around.
Everyonce in a while I hear a growl in my home. I don't
care who or why (Dobe has been known to drop rawhides on
sleeping Greyhound heads), I yell. My whole pack stops
and looks at me with 'whats the matter with her'.
My Mother decided to let dogs choose their pecking
order in her home. The old Shepher/Dobe mix was fine
with the Dobe puppy. But when the Dobe was 3 yrs old
it got into a fight with the old dog over a mole and
nearly killed her. My Mother had the Dobe put down
(a decision I disargreed with since mom was able to stop
the fight with voice only - Dobe would go to a home
with no other pets) I think if she showed the Dobe
right away that trying to dominate the old dog wasn't
allowed this would never had happened. She also allowed
the Dobe to push around my Dobe puppy when she was
caring for her for me. My Dobe NEVER forgave her dog
and would become agressive toward it if she brought it
to my home. My Dobe would offer a play bow to strange
Dobes.
good luck to you and Pacer.......... Pamela
In article <DEAN.92Oc...@wind.sweetpea.jsc.nasa.gov>
de...@sweetpea.jsc.nasa.gov (Jack Dean) writes:
>
Jack Dean
Victoria> In article <DEAN.92Oc...@wind.sweetpea.jsc.nasa.gov> de...@sweetpea.jsc.nasa.gov (Jack Dean) writes:
Victoria> Forgive me for asking this, I'm really not trying to be obnoxious, but
Victoria> is there some redeeming characteristic of this dog that makes him worth
Victoria> the effort?
[some stuff deleted]
Victoria> Again, I'm curious, not trying to be snotty. And obviously it's easier
Victoria> for me to ask than for someone else to have to make a really hard decision
Victoria> in re this dog.....
Well, first of all, he's not really an unpleasant dog. He is very
friendly towards people, and his aggressive behavior towards other
dogs is not a constant thing. He does in fact play with my two
greyhounds. I also find it hard to justify destroying this dog just
because some #&%@##! has trained him to kill small animals (which is
what training with live lures effectively does).
You raise some difficult questions however. If we have our hands full
with difficult to place dogs, some other more readily adoptable
greyhounds may get destroyed. So what's the right answer? I don't
know. But in the meantime, we will continue to keep the greyhounds
that we get until we can find them a good home.
--
Jack Dean de...@sweetpea.jsc.nasa.gov
Sky Warrior
personality, but it will be toned down. I highly recommend a book by
Job Michael Evans called "People, Pooches, and Problems" It has a whole
chapter on dealing with aggressive dogs.
Good luck
--
-----------------------------
SKY WARRIOR aka MLH Bonham | "Good tea. Nice House." -- Lt. Worf
mammoth!ml...@druhi.att.com |----------------------------------------------
ml...@drutx.ATT.COM | SKY WARRIOR RACING KENNELS - Coming to an
| Iditarod near you!
-----------------------------
Barbara Roy
stuff about dominant greyhound deleted...
>Would you neuter him right away, or wait and see who
>is going to adopt him and offer to neuter him for the new adopters if
>they want? Discussion invited.
>
>Jack Dean de...@sweetpea.jsc.nasa.gov
I'd vote for neutering. Whether of not it "cures" his dominant behavior, this
dog was not good enough to win at the track and I'm presuming is not show
quality, therefore he really has no business being bred. I've never neutered
an adult male dog, but have gelded adult horses and can attest that it
DEFINITELY alters their behavior. My ex-stallion is FAR more laid back and
gets along better with the other horses now that he's gelded. I can only
assume that the same goes for dogs. Once those male hormones dissappear, they
are much calmer animals. Wouldn't you be?
Barbara Roy, University of Iowa, Weeg Computing Center, Iowa City, IA. 52242
Internet: br...@vaxa.weeg.uiowa.edu or Barba...@uiowa.edu
Bitnet: bro...@uiamvs.bitnet
Disclaimer: My opinions are solely my own and may change daily.
Valaria Vorlop
> One of the unique things about Pacer is that the original adopters did
> not want to neuter him, so he has had a vasectomy instead of the
> normal castration. So my question to the net is how much will
> castration reduce his dominant/aggressive tendencies, especially
> towards other dogs?
>
> their own pack order, or forestall a potential problem and fight and
> is going to adopt him and offer to neuter him for the new adopters if
> they want? Discussion invited.
Well, I did a lot of research into this before I recently neutered my dobie
and in MOST cases, it seems to have a great deal of an effect on sexually
linked inter-dog behaviours. My dog was not dominant agressive exactly...he
didn't FIGHT, but he was extremely over-sexual with other dogs, there may
have been some dominance agression involved in instigating the mounting
behaviour, hard to say. Neutering has cured this and he now plays normally
with any other normal dog, it's WONDERFUL.
I would say it's definitely worth a try, it certainly can't hurt. In my
dobie, there were no other signifigant personality changes: he is still just
as protective, active, etc. Maybe a bit more affectionate and lifts his leg a
bit less, but that's it.
I would do it before you adopt him out if you can. Although the effects on my
dog were quite immediate, I have been told that it can take up to 3 months
for the personality changes to become really obvious. This supposedly has to
do with hormones that are still circulating in the bloodstream and gradually
get filtered out. I suspect it also has to do with the time it takes in some
cases to train away the bad habits which still remain after the hormonal
influence is gone. You may be more qualified to do this retraining than the
new owner, and you'll also have a chance to re-assess his personality so you
can be sure you really should be placing him.
Good luck, I hope it works out!
--
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Valaria...@mindlink.bc.ca I cried because I had no shoes
or: a4...@mindlink.bc.ca Until I met a man who had no feet.
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * - ???
too...@scivax.stsci.edu
de...@sweetpea.jsc.nasa.gov (Jack Dean) writes:
> In article <1bk87t...@terminator.rs.itd.umich.edu>, v...@icpsr.umich.edu
(Victoria Neff) writes:
V> Forgive me for asking this, I'm really not trying to be obnoxious, but
V> is there some redeeming characteristic of this dog that makes him worth
V> the effort?
[some stuff deleted]
V> Again, I'm curious, not trying to be snotty. And obviously it's easier
V> for me to ask than for someone else to have to make a really hard decision
V> in re this dog.....
J> Well, first of all, he's not really an unpleasant dog. He is very
J> friendly towards people, and his aggressive behavior towards other
J> dogs is not a constant thing. He does in fact play with my two
J> greyhounds. I also find it hard to justify destroying this dog just
J> because some #&%@##! has trained him to kill small animals (which is
J> what training with live lures effectively does).
J> You raise some difficult questions however. If we have our hands full
J> with difficult to place dogs, some other more readily adoptable
J> greyhounds may get destroyed. So what's the right answer? I don't
J> know. But in the meantime, we will continue to keep the greyhounds
J> that we get until we can find them a good home.
> Jack Dean de...@sweetpea.jsc.nasa.gov
Yes, tough questions indeed, but the answer is in the stated purpose of the
rescue group. Once the fortunate few greyhounds come into the hands of the
rescue group (in this case, GPA), THEY'RE SUPPOSED TO BE SAFE. GPA asks that
if anyone cannot for any reason keep the dog they adopted, the dog be returned
so they can find it a new home and not need to save it again from the pound
or wherever. At least Pacer's former owners did that. And, unless there is
some EXTREMELY extenuating circumstances (i.e., the dog attacks everyone and
everything in sight [and for this to occur in a Greyhound, I think it would
have to be rabid!]), he should not be put down. It would void the entire
purpose of, and destroy the credibility of, the rescue group.
Perhaps the prevention of the problem with Pacer would have been better
selection criteria. I know that the dogs that come to the Maryland GPA (most
from New England, and some recently from Georgia) are carefully screened to
make sure that they are of excellent pet quality. I have no idea what questions
are asked or what "testing" is done, but perhaps asking "has this dog been
trained with live lures?" would be in order. I could not, under any
circumstances, be one of the people who chooses the dogs that will go to the
rescue group. Just the thought of knowing that my decision will result in
life or death for the dog almost boggles my mind. I just try to reach everyone
I can, in any way I can, in order to find good homes for more dogs.
The solution for Pacer? I don't know if altering him would really help unless
he is standardly agressive, which doesn't sound like it's the case (but doesn't
the Texas GPA require altering, or just that the dog isn't able to reproduce?
I've never heard of a vasectomy being done on a dog before!) I can only
suggest that you be cautious of his aggression with your dogs as he tries to
establish his place in the "pack," and that a home be found for him that, at
least, has no small pets. And of course the new owner must be told of his
history, so the problems don't repeat themselves.
* * * * *
*
Sharon Toolan * My opinions are my own;
too...@stsci.edu * no one else would want them!
*
* * * * *
Make a fast friend--adopt a Greyhound!
Ad absurdum per aspera
A fair amount, but don't expect the results to be either immediate
or dramatic -- it'll just sort of take the edge off certain behaviors,
notably the urge to go whup up on rival males in the area and the
dramatic behavior changes caused by a bitch in heat in the neighborhood.
A lot of dominance behavior, though, seems to be driven by psychology
rather than directly by biochemistry. An alpha dog will still be an
alpha dog, just more mellow.
This brings up an important thing to remember about neutering (seemingly
obvious and included for completeness -- I don't mean to be insulting).
You still have to train the dog. You'll just be training a slightly
more amiable animal than before. He'll still dig holes in the lawn,
go through the garbage, bark at squirrels, etc., just like before.
This is important in the present context, because you mention that
the animal in question, a rescued greyhound,
>probably was trained on live lures, and is pretty much ruined for small
>animals.
Here, I'll defer to the greyhound experts on the net, but I suspect
that neutering will merely temper, not eliminate, this trained behavior.
The idea of
>Leave it alone and let the hounds work out their own pack order
seems a bit more Jack Londonish than most people care to put up with
among their pets. Most of the time, male-dog quarrels (or male-people
quarrels, for that matter) are more about dominance posturing than
actual damage, but they do have the potential to blow up into genuine
fighting, with considerable pain and large vet bills.
Good luck, and let us know how it all comes out,
--Joe
"Just another personal opinion from the People's Republic of Berkeley"
r hardin
Sky Warrior writes:
>Neutering will definitely reduce aggression. He will still be an Alpha in
>personality, but it will be toned down. I highly recommend a book by
>Job Michael Evans called "People, Pooches, and Problems" It has a whole
>chapter on dealing with aggressive dogs.
Neutering is another politically correct decision.
Sometimes it is medically correct.
Usually, you're looking at the wrong end of the dog.
Find a training method that works, and use it. If your method can't
deal with the energy of an intact dog, change.
r hardin
Barbara Roy writes:
>I'd vote for neutering. Whether of not it "cures" his dominant behavior, this
>dog was not good enough to win at the track and I'm presuming is not show
>quality, therefore he really has no business being bred. I've never neutered
>an adult male dog, but have gelded adult horses and can attest that it
>DEFINITELY alters their behavior. My ex-stallion is FAR more laid back and
>gets along better with the other horses now that he's gelded. I can only
>assume that the same goes for dogs. Once those male hormones dissappear, they
>are much calmer animals. Wouldn't you be?
Dick Koehler insouciantly remarked that it hadn't helped him any.
Intact animals are easier to train, especially indomitable ones.
I guess it depends on how you train; you have to use a method
that doesn't depend on dominating. Eg. Koehler.
Their energy then expresses itself as devotion to work.
Also, and you can argue with her, Vicki Hearne remarks
In the horse world, most of the male horses you run across
are geldings because stallions are more of a pain in the
neck to keep and handle. The geldings (if gelded early enough)
are quieter, and they are also easier than the mares to train
and ride. But what I noticed was this: Given two horses of
equal talent, who are equally crazy to begin with, it is easier
to reclaim the stallion (at least it is easier the way I train).
The stallion may well be more violent to begin with, may give
you a real time of it, but once you have him moving with
artistry, symmetry, balance, and power, he gets the point
of the exercise faster. Similarly with dogs, both male and
female: If they have been neutered young, they are harder
to train. Easier to subdue, mind you, but harder to train.
Koehler has a simple way to deal with dog-dog aggression at the
end of the book, but don't do it without training the dog first
through the novice exercises.
Friedrich Knauss
>
>Yes, tough questions indeed, but the answer is in the stated purpose of the
>rescue group. Once the fortunate few greyhounds come into the hands of the
>rescue group (in this case, GPA), THEY'RE SUPPOSED TO BE SAFE.
>.
>.
>Perhaps the prevention of the problem with Pacer would have been better
>selection criteria. I know that the dogs that come to the Maryland GPA (most
>from New England, and some recently from Georgia) are carefully screened to
>make sure that they are of excellent pet quality.
Maybe I'm dense.
Why is it worse to take in a dog to see if he responds
to a positive environment and put him down if he doesn't
than it is to reject him entirely and cause him to go
through a couple of owners at the pound and _then_ put
him down?
--
-- Bones heal - Chicks dig scars - Pain is temporary - Glory is forever
-- fri...@megatek.com :wq ZZ QQUIT exitqqq^C^Y^C^C^C^C^C^C^C
--
Valaria Vorlop
> Actually, for male dogs, a bitch in heat is a swell distraction,
> and gives an opportunity to settle that heel means heel, and a sit
> stay is a sit stay, etc, hormones notwithstanding.
> That is, in the spirit of Koehler, you don't train the dog not
> to mount a female, you train him to keep his mind on business
> when business is on hand.
> So if you want to keep your dog from running off after females
> on a walk, you only have to say heel.
Hmm, maybe I did not make myself clear enough. My dog would heel just fine,
come when called off leash, and utterly ignore any dog while working. The
problem came when I would allow him to interact with a new dog. The problem
was NOT with bitches in heat, which he's hardly ever run into unless I've
been caring for one, the problem was with ANY dog of ANY sex, intact and
neutered males included. I suppose there is no way of explaining how it was,
but if you could have seen it you would understand his helplessness: there
were times when he would continue helplessly 'air humping' after being
dragged off a dog and quite harshly corrected. He KNEW he was not allowed and
KNEW he would be corrected. My dog, except for a few challenges earlier in
his life, was NEVER willfully disobedient. I tried nice methods and harsh
methods and I tried for over a year and a half.
> Hearne's point, and mine, is that the happiness of the dog depends
> on that energy,
I wasn't aware that either you or Hearne had ever been a dog. Dog's don't
know the difference, I think this is nothing but anthropomorphization, which
I can't stand and can hardly spell :) My dog still enjoys all the same
hobbies he ever did, his behaviour has not changed ONE BIT. I was afraid
there would be a diminished intensity in his personality, but there has been
none. Again, this may be a difference between early and late neutering. The
only difference is that my dog is not being punished for actions which he
could not control, and if anything that should make him happier.
> This is supposed to be very cruel nowadays, when happiness is
> imagined not in work but in some calculus of rights imagined by
> kind people. Something of no interest whatsover to a dog, which
> is why they're so honest; and of no interest to a trainer.
> I don't mind that you neuter your dog, I just want to say that there
> is another vision of an intact dog, and I think it's the right one.
I work my dog, and expect a high level of work from him and he does seem to
find great happiness in his work. This is something I am sure the founders of
the breed had in mind, and if I hadn't wanted it I would have chosen a
different breed. I was willing to accept everything that came with owning a
NORMAL intact male. I think you still miss my point, as I did say in my
previous posting that most neutering is unnecessary. I would likely never
have neutered my dog if it was not necessary, why do you think it took 3.5
years
for me to do it? I think the problem is that you will never believe that it
was not a failure in my training methods because they were not 100% Koehler.
I could solve this by handing you my dog's leash if he was still intact, but
now I guess we'll never know.
> For all that, I do enjoy testimonials about how castration has
> improved the personality of their dogs written by women; I mail them
> to a friend who recently had a vasectomy.
I assume this was a joke, even though there was no smiley. The thing that is
NOT so funny about it though is that again you are equating dog psychology
with human psychology. A human male might feel sensitive about his vasectomy,
a dog will NEVER know the difference. Besides, this info should not do your
vasectomized friend any good unless he plans on entering the hospital again
to finish the job...he still has all his hormones :)
r hardin
Valaria Vorlop writes:
>I wasn't aware that either you or Hearne had ever been a dog. Dog's don't
>know the difference, I think this is nothing but anthropomorphization, which
>I can't stand and can hardly spell :)
and
>I assume this was a joke, even though there was no smiley. The thing that is
>NOT so funny about it though is that again you are equating dog psychology
>with human psychology.
Well what in the world in supposed to be wrong with anthropomorphization?
That's how I make sense of things. Everybody who's had a psych course
of course knows it's wrong, and has learned to write about licking behavior
exhibited by bitches with their puppies. (Exhibited to whom?) If I
think like that, I'll be unable to train a dog until I get over it, which
some really eager psych students never do.
I have to know how it is with the dog, just as I have to know how
it is with a friend; and I don't know how it is with my friend
by analogy with myself anyhow, but, in fact, by letting myself
be known. (It seems like knowledge flows the wrong way, if one takes a
scientific view. Just a sign that something's very wrong
with the psych model.)
My dog knows how it is with me by letting himself be known, and
that is his honesty.
Just an outline of how thinking about training has to change in the
modern idiom. As soon as it talks about psychology, it becomes an idiot.
Why wouldn't Hearne know her dog? A fine trainer if there ever was one.
``Bandit is a very male sort of male dog. This can get a bit embarrassing,
because he becomes aroused in all ways, mental and physical, if I take
him out to work afer a period of lazing around the house. Not if he
is merely taken out to romp, but if he is taken out to work.
This made him very easy to train, and if he is in a period of steady
work, his energy expresses itself as devotion to work instead of a
rather too literal attempt to embrace the earth. As an intact male
dog of enormous power, he is, as I keep saying, indominable, impossible
to subdue. But a wonderful partner in that dance of friendship in which
we are no longer naked, no longer concealed behind the illusion of
nakedness.
I do not know what gender is, but I suspect it is not to be understood
by peering at genitals, but rather the way Annie and Bandit understand
it in each other, through movement and gaze. (And scoldings and other
comedies.) I do believe that gender is important, and also the fact
that ``kind'' and ``gender'' are sometimes synonymous, especially when
``engender'' begins to emerge from ``gender,'' and that there is
a reason that nobility is never expressed without the resonances of
gender. Nor is nobility safe or cuddly.''
too...@scivax.stsci.edu
> In article <1992Oct16...@scivax.stsci.edu> too...@scivax.stsci.edu writes:
>>
>>Yes, tough questions indeed, but the answer is in the stated purpose of the
>>rescue group. Once the fortunate few greyhounds come into the hands of the
>>rescue group (in this case, GPA), THEY'RE SUPPOSED TO BE SAFE.
>>.
>>selection criteria. I know that the dogs that come to the Maryland GPA (most
>>from New England, and some recently from Georgia) are carefully screened to
>>make sure that they are of excellent pet quality.
>
> Maybe I'm dense.
>
> Why is it worse to take in a dog to see if he responds
> to a positive environment and put him down if he doesn't
> than it is to reject him entirely and cause him to go
> through a couple of owners at the pound and _then_ put
> him down?
>
> --
> -- Bones heal - Chicks dig scars - Pain is temporary - Glory is forever
> -- fri...@megatek.com :wq ZZ QQUIT exitqqq^C^Y^C^C^C^C^C^C^C
No, I don't think you're dense. The situation I was replying to was
pertaining specifically to Greyhound Rescue (since I don't really know how
any other rescue group works). The question that I was addressing was WHY
SAVE A PERHAPS "DIFFICULT TO PLACE" GREYHOUND, WHEN THERE ARE ABSOLUTELY
THOUSANDS OF OTHERS THAT WILL DIE THAT COULD HAVE BEEN PLACED MORE READILY.
Jack's action (and thus, the action of whichever GPA he's affiliated with in
Texas), is exactly what I would expect. There was a problem, fortunately the
adoptor returned the dog to GPA (as they should, but unfortunately many don't),
so GPA tries to find the dog a more suitable home, trying to remedy the
problems along the way.
Perhaps I'm getting philisophical, but I'm arguing in favor of the methods of
the GPA rescue group here. Once a dog is rescued, GPA has made a commitment
and will do everything in its power to see it safe in a good home. It was
rescued in order to prevent its death, so destroying it should be *only* as an
absolutely last resort. Jack has said that the dog displays occasional
aggression, but that otherwise he's a nice dog. There has to be some home he
can go to where he will not be in a situation where he can have cats for lunch.
Along with others, I suggest altering Pacer. I'm convinced GPA'll be able to
find him a good home. I hope I clarified my thoughts here, but I'm afraid that
while I know exactly what I mean, but I just can't get it clearly into words.
(By the way, I am a member of the same rescue group Jack is, just in another
state.)
* * * * *
*
Sharon Toolan * My opinions are my own;
too...@stsci.edu * no one else would want them!
*
* * * * *
Make a fast friend; adopt a Greyhound!
"Mom" to Amber (8 yr old rescued racing Greyhound) &
Topaz (3 yr old rescued racing Greyhound)
Damon Feldman
> was NOT with bitches in heat, which he's hardly ever run into unless I've
> been caring for one, the problem was with ANY dog of ANY sex, intact and
> were times when he would continue helplessly 'air humping' after being
> dragged off a dog and quite harshly corrected.
This is a good example of what Barbara Woodehouse calls an "oversexed" dog.
A dog who's interest in sex interferes with its enjoyment of life. It
is best, IMHO, to neuter this dog, becuase it should not be bred
anyway, and neutering would have a substatial effect on behavior.
I would not confuse this with a dominant or aggressive dog, though.
As for training, my dog recently "locked up" with a Schutzhund trained
intact Rottwieler: each dog had a grip on the others lip. The owner
said to the Rott, "OUT!" and the dog let go. Testosterone or no
testosterone. This becuase the dog was properly trained.
Damon
--
Damon Feldman fel...@rex.cs.tulane.edu
Marla Belzowski (K-9's)
>
>
>Barbara Roy writes:
>>I'd vote for neutering. Whether of not it "cures" his dominant behavior, this
>>dog was not good enough to win at the track and I'm presuming is not show
>>quality, therefore he really has no business being bred. I've never neutered
>>an adult male dog, but have gelded adult horses and can attest that it
>>DEFINITELY alters their behavior. My ex-stallion is FAR more laid back and
>>gets along better with the other horses now that he's gelded. I can only
>>assume that the same goes for dogs. Once those male hormones dissappear, they
>>are much calmer animals. Wouldn't you be?
>
I agree here. Neutered animals are much more easy to train than non-neutered
animals. I have extensive experience with this.
>Dick Koehler insouciantly remarked that it hadn't helped him any.
>
First of all, I don't like how Koehler trains. I have tried his
methods and they failed miserably with my dogs. I have tried variations
of his methods which are much easier on the dogs and they have been
sucessful. If you follow his method word for word, you will
destroy your dog's spirt and individuality. If you are looking for
a robot dog, or worse yet a fear-bitter, then you will get one
if you follow his direction to the
letter.
>Intact animals are easier to train, especially indomitable ones.
BULLSH*T!!
>I guess it depends on how you train; you have to use a method
>that doesn't depend on dominating. Eg. Koehler.
>Their energy then expresses itself as devotion to work.
If you believe this I have 100,000 acres in flordia to sell you.
>
>Also, and you can argue with her, Vicki Hearne remarks
>
> In the horse world, most of the male horses you run across
> are geldings because stallions are more of a pain in the
> neck to keep and handle. The geldings (if gelded early enough)
> are quieter, and they are also easier than the mares to train
> and ride. But what I noticed was this: Given two horses of
> equal talent, who are equally crazy to begin with, it is easier
> to reclaim the stallion (at least it is easier the way I train).
> The stallion may well be more violent to begin with, may give
> you a real time of it, but once you have him moving with
> artistry, symmetry, balance, and power, he gets the point
> of the exercise faster. Similarly with dogs, both male and
> female: If they have been neutered young, they are harder
> to train. Easier to subdue, mind you, but harder to train.
>^^^^^^^^^^^^^
BULLSH*T -- BULLSH*T -- BULLSH*T!!!
Neutered dogs are by far eaisier to train. The younger neutered the
better. I have trained two intact collies for the last six years and
Both of them would be more responsive and eaiser to train if they were
neutered ( I don't because I am trying to improve the breed).
If my male Beowulf had been neutered, I would have gotten his CD with
scores of 195 of above. Because he is not neutered, the instant I
get him around females (even those not in heat) his brain goes
bonkers and he can't concentrate as well as he normally does
when I am working with him around other males.
>Koehler has a simple way to deal with dog-dog aggression at the
>end of the book, but don't do it without training the dog first
>through the novice exercises.
If you follow Koehler with a greyhound, you will destroy the dog's
confindence. I suggest you try the Monk's of New Skete, Mother
Knows Best, or other book that deals more mildly with the issue of
dominance behaviors.
I have trained everything from toy poodles to GSD and Rotties in
my obedience classes here at Purdue and at my old club Trail Creek.
Very few neutered dogs are hard to train and more non-altered dogs
tend to be harder to train. Non-altered dogs ARE insterested in
other dogs, it's a fact of nature and a fact of life. You take
away the hormones that cause them to be interested in other dogs and
the dog becomes interested in pleaseing the pack leader -- you!
I have tried several methods on several dogs. I'm not afraid to give
a good correction if one is called for, but I don't try to make the
dog something he/she isn't.
As far as I'm concerned Koehler is a last ditch approach to saving
a dog that need EXTENSIVE behavior modification. If I had
a dog that had to be trained in this method, I would not have that dog
very long.
Off my soap-box.
-----------
Marla Belzowski saa...@mentor.cc.purdue.edu
Mauii Nikki Belzowski CD CGC TDI CERF
Brittish Legend of Beowulf CD CGC TDI CERF tri-color collies
Legend's Year of Jubilee 5 mo. sable and white collie
Dag Bruck
>
>If my male Beowulf had been neutered, I would have gotten his CD with
>scores of 195 of above.
Calm down; you have no idea if or how much he would have changed. You
cannot apply "statistics" to a single dog.
Do you mind if I quote you from a previous posting?
> Message-ID: <42...@mentor.cc.purdue.edu>
> Date: 25 Mar 92 06:10:51 GMT
>
> Neutered dogs are no different in personality, drive or family setting
> than an intact dog.
>
> Neutering is not the answer to unwanted behaviors. Training is.
Hear, hear!
-- Dag
Linda Mooring
>> r hardin writes:
>> Actually, for male dogs, a bitch in heat is a swell distraction,
>> and gives an opportunity to settle that heel means heel, and a sit
>> stay is a sit stay, etc, hormones notwithstanding.
>> That is, in the spirit of Koehler, you don't train the dog not
>> to mount a female, you train him to keep his mind on business
>> when business is on hand.
>> So if you want to keep your dog from running off after females
>> on a walk, you only have to say heel.
>
>
>Hmm, maybe I did not make myself clear enough. My dog would heel just fine,
>come when called off leash, and utterly ignore any dog while working. The
>problem came when I would allow him to interact with a new dog. The problem
>was NOT with bitches in heat, which he's hardly ever run into unless I've
>been caring for one, the problem was with ANY dog of ANY sex, intact and
>neutered males included. I suppose there is no way of explaining how it was,
>but if you could have seen it you would understand his helplessness: there
>were times when he would continue helplessly 'air humping' after being
>dragged off a dog and quite harshly corrected. He KNEW he was not allowed and
>KNEW he would be corrected. My dog, except for a few challenges earlier in
>his life, was NEVER willfully disobedient. I tried nice methods and harsh
>methods and I tried for over a year and a half.
>
I agree wholeheartedly with Valaria. My brother's female Rottie responds
incredibly well to training and is currently at the head of her class in
Schutzhund training. The only time my brother ever has trouble with her
is directly after a heat. For each of her four heats, she had false
pregancies and would guard a dog house that she previously never used -
(inside dog). She'd be attentive during training, but was always
constantly distracted by her obvious desire to get back to that dog
house and guard it. Spaying her has in no way reduced her drive and
eagerness to work; its only removed those seasonal urges that she
couldn't control.
Linda
Marla Belzowski (K-9's)
Sure I did say that, but that was about a little different topic.
This article was directly facing the issue that neutered dogs
are not as good as non-neutered dogs. That is a very wrong assumption.
Some behaviors need to be corrected by training and many can be.
Marking territory inside someone house as I believe the other article
was about, can be traied out. Aggressived tendencied brought on by
hormonal responses often can not be trained out of a dog.
Wolfie has three brothers that are not neutered and two sisters that
a neutered. All of them have been much easier to handle. We
dog-sat for one of his brothers while their family went on vacation
just last summer. Sparky, Wolfie's brother, was neutered at 7 months
old. Sparky is much more interested in people than other dogs. He
totally ignored Mauii, except when he came up to say, "Hi, I'm back"
and when on his merry way to play with the toys. Wolfie on the other
hand wanted nothing to do but to dominate Sparky. He would often try to
ride Sparky. Sparky however is much more dominant than Wolfie and would
stand his ground and even snap at Wolfie until Wolfie backed down.
Wolfie ofcourse would just walk over to his favorite tree and lift his leg.
I know my own dogs and I can honestly say that if I wanted an OTCH
collie, I would have neutered Wolfie when he was 6 months old.
I don't want an OTCH collie right now, I want to improve the breed so
I made the choice to keep him intact. When Wolfie's stud days are over
he will be neutered and I will once again work on higher levels of
obedience with him. Right now he is much more interested in finding
himself a girl friend and I can not trust him out of the kennel
without watching him. I can see in his actions that he IS going to
try to stake a territory and find a mate. He knows exactly were the boundaries
of the yard is and is unable to control his tendency to wander off it.
It's not that he is doing it because he is being willful or
disobedient, it is because Mother Nature's call to procreate is much
stronger than the command from his leader (me) to not leave the yard.
This is nature and this is exactly why neutered dogs make better pets.
The drive to procreate is not overriding all previous training.
Neutered dogs are much more devoted to the trainer and family because
they do not feel the drive to mate as strongly as an intact dog.
I have never had a problem with any neutered dog I ever owned wandering
off the property. Wolfie would if I did not watch him.
If I had neutered Wolfie, I am positive that he would be much
more reliable on all commands. Many of the trainers I have talked to
which train OTCH dogs and other competitive obedience, tracking, and
other work dogs have told me that inorder to have a reliable working
dog, your first choice should be to neuter your dog at or before 6 months.
I have seen many many OTCH dogs that were neutered and they are much
faster, precise, and more responsive than their intact counter parts.
That is my understanding after 5.5 years of dog training for competition and
after 17 years of pet ownership.
--------------------
r hardin
Marla Belzowski writes:
>>Dick Koehler insouciantly remarked that it hadn't helped him any.
>>
>
>First of all, I don't like how Koehler trains. I have tried his
>methods and they failed miserably with my dogs. I have tried variations
>of his methods which are much easier on the dogs and they have been
>sucessful. If you follow his method word for word, you will
>destroy your dog's spirt and individuality. If you are looking for
>a robot dog, or worse yet a fear-bitter, then you will get one
>if you follow his direction to the
>letter.
The author is William Koehler, Dick is his son. Dick was responding
to a question of whether neutering a mature male dog would change his
dominance behavior. ``Oh, I don't think that will help. It hasn't
done me any good at all.''
I'm sorry you've not had luck with Koehler's method, perhaps you
can get somebody to watch your technique. Sometimes you're doing
somthing that's obvious to an observer.
I know all too well that Koehler is supposed to be a ``jerk the dog
around'' method, which it isn't; however, if you do ``jerk the dog
around,'' you will no doubt find that it doesn't work for you, and
you might then assume that those who do use Koehler and rely on it
must be ``jerking the dog around'' even more than you did, and therefore
it must have horrible effects on the dog, who must then be robots
and/or fear biters. I'm trying to be sympathetic here.
If you read Koehler's beginning book, it is very harsh. But read carefully:
it's not harsh on the dogs, but on the handlers. Koehler wants you to see
something about your dog, his intelligence and dignity to start with,
and soon his glory and nobility.
Koehler's advanced books have less and less harshness to them as
it presumably becomes less necessary, as the handlers already see
what Koehler sees.
I've trained my robot fear-biting :) Dobie Susie through the utility
and tracking books, with not the slightest trouble. I don't know
a brighter-eyed, more glorious dog. I know you will find this
unbelievable, but what can I do? A behaviorist I know was telling
me that my dog must be a robot too, and I told him, look, come on
over and watch, the jumps are permanently set up in the yard, but
he never would. What does it mean when a scientist won't look?
It isn't a matter of pick and choose the method that works for you.
Why don't they use The Monks of New Skete at the guide dog place?
Well, they have a vision of the dog, they rely on his intelligence
and dignity, and teach responsibility.
The vision you have of your dog will choose your method profoundly -
if you see the intelligence and dignity and want to teach the
glory and nobility, you'll be using Koehler even if you don't
use a single correction that's the same as in the book.
If you see yourself as a pack leader to the dog, you won't be
using Koehler even if you follow him to the letter.
If you see your dog as a teddy bear for grown-ups, then you probably
have not read the right dog stories.
Be very careful, if you're into competition training, that the story
you once knew hasn't changed from a dog story into a dog handler story.
Susan B. Sinnott
>>Intact animals are easier to train, especially indomitable ones.
>
>
>BULLSH*T!!
I just want to say that I agree with Marla on this one. Both of my two
males are neutered. However...recently I was at a police dog exhibition, and
afterward was able to talk to the officers (and dogs! :-) ). Anyway, I
asked them if their dogs were neutered, and they said that they had problems
training NEUTERED dogs and preferred intact males. The majority of their
dogs were donated/rescued GSDs. They said on occaison a dog would come
already neutered and still be used, but that this was very rare. Just
thought I would throw this out there.
Susan Sinnott
sin...@tc4.fi.ameslab.gov
Valaria Vorlop
R Hardin writes:
>The author is William Koehler, Dick is his son. Dick was responding
>to a question of whether neutering a mature male dog would change his
>dominance behavior. ``Oh, I don't think that will help. It hasn't
>done me any good at all.''
Good grief! This just proves his ignorance once and for all, doesn't it?
I'll say it again, most HUMAN males have VASECTOMIES, most CANINE males are
CASTRATED, the two are totally different in terms of affect on hormones.
Unless Dick was a eunuch, this statement is totally meaningless.
Valaria Vorlop
>I just want to say that I agree with Marla on this one. Both of my two
>males are neutered. However...recently I was at a police dog exhibition,
and
>afterward was able to talk to the officers (and dogs! :-) ). Anyway, I
>asked them if their dogs were neutered, and they said that they had problems
>training NEUTERED dogs and preferred intact males. The majority of their
>dogs were donated/rescued GSDs. They said on occaison a dog would come
>already neutered and still be used, but that this was very rare. Just
>thought I would throw this out there.
Just a guess, but maybe this is what is happening: If the dogs in question
were neutered before puberty, perhaps they never developed the full range
of protective abilities. Since obviously police work needs this, it would
make the dog unsuitable...I wonder what they would say about the same dogs
if they were not required to do bite work though? Perhaps the occasional
neuter that IS found to be suitable was in fact neutered AFTER sexual
maturity and the development of those instincts. Of course since MOST dogs
these days are neutered well before maturity, it WOULD be rare to get one
that was not.
Meg McRoberts
==> Hmm, maybe I did not make myself clear enough. My dog would heel just fine,
==> come when called off leash, and utterly ignore any dog while working. The
==> problem came when I would allow him to interact with a new dog. The problem
==> was NOT with bitches in heat, which he's hardly ever run into unless I've
==> been caring for one, the problem was with ANY dog of ANY sex, intact and
==> neutered males included. I suppose there is no way of explaining how it was,
==> but if you could have seen it you would understand his helplessness: there
==> were times when he would continue helplessly 'air humping' after being
==> dragged off a dog and quite harshly corrected. He KNEW he was not allowed and
i have a female lhasa who, ever since she was syed (at the
age of six months) does this occaisionally, always always to
me. someone said it's an asexual dominance behavior, and
Matzah ball clearly has some dominant tendencies (she took
the best teat when she was a puppy, for example).
sometimes this almost seems to be a demand for attention.
she is most apt to do it when i'm on the phone -- she'll
come up and grab my arm and go at it. she'll respond to
a sit/stay command, which calms her down, then i can pay
attention to her, hopefully without encouraging the other
behavior.
while i think matzah was definitely the dominant puppy of
the litter, and she's got a self-confidence that probably
goes with that, we don't have serious dominance behavior
problems so i haven't worried too much about this one.
it sounds like your dog is pretty well-behaved, too -- i
wonder what it means to have this one dominant trait.