Responsible dog ownership includes CLEAN-UP!

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Reverend Tweek

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Apr 18, 1998, 3:00:00 AM4/18/98
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First off, this is not an attempt to bait a flame war... if I wanted
that, I would have added alt.tasteless to the newsgroup line. This is
a plea to dog owners to be responsible pet owners and not demand that
other people deal with your dog's crap.

Now then, let me introduce myself. I am a bicycle commuter who uses one
of the regional multi-use trails in my area for six of the thirty miles
of my daily commute. Besides cyclists, other users of these shared trails
include joggers, skaters, walkers... and yes, dog walkers.

Before someone goes of on a tangent citing that there are cyclists and
skaters who use the trail irresponsibly, and thus I as a cyclist have no
right to complain about dog owners, let me inform you that I try my best
to be responsible in my usage of the trail, and I am not one of those
speeding cyclists who doesn't call out before passing you from the rear.
Take up your complaints about those cyclists and skaters, with those
cyclists and skaters. You have no complaint with me on that score.

My complaint isn't with all dog owners, for there are some (I wish I
could say many, but I just don't see that in my experience) who fulfill
their responsibilities WRT my gripe. My complaint is with those dog
owners who take their dog for a walk on the trail and don't...

- Use a leash?

Nope. Actually, I have seem more bicycle hazard dogs on a leash, than off
a leash... The ones off the leash seem to have been trained to get out of
the way.

- Hmmm, Then what?

Left Behind Dog Poop! Both on the paved trail, and off the paved trail
by the wayside.

In the case of poop ON the paved trail, in cases where it is unavoidable
to miss, I end up with it splattered on my bike and possibly on me, and I
have to live with that stench the rest of the way home... not to mention
hose off my bike (and maybe myself) before I bring it into my apartment
for the night.

In the case of poop on the side of the trail... well, first off, I feel
sorry for the joggers who like to jog on the dirt path rather than the
hard paved surface... but even if the poop isn't on either of the paths,
when the heat of summer comes upon us, that crap is going to stink until
the winter rains come back. At the end of the '97 summer, until we started
getting rain, about 75% of the six mile trail on my route stunk like
dog crap.

I've had enough, and I've started an In-Your-Face campaign right back at
the irresponsible dog owners. For the three weeks, as soon as I hit the
trail section of my commute, I stop and attach one of two velcro equiped
signs to the back of my bike.

"Please, clean up after your dog."
Or
"Please, bus your dog's waste."

At the bottom of the sign I also have a pointer to my In-Your-Face WWW page.

"Read Contra Costa Whines on the web
AltaVista search: cocowhine"

It's on that web page, where another phase of the battle will be taking
place. I'm already being In-Your-Face with comments to the dog owners
when I come across one not intent upon picking up the crap.

- Two weeks ago I passed a woman with a dog on the other end
of the leash. The dog was squating off in the bushes and the
woman was biding her time. My In-Your-Face comment as I passed
by was "That's going to stink really BAD soon."

- Two days ago, near the end of my commute, I'c coming up a hill
and I notice a bunch of kids and dogs doing the 21211[*] shuffle
All I noticed at the moment was that there was a dog directly in
the path I wanted to take. (with leashes, kids and dogs strung
about over the rest of the path.) Now this roadblock was actually
moving forward... that is until one kid mentioned to the other to
"Look at what your dog is doing". It was then that I noticed that
the dog was squating. Poor dog... While being drug along, it had to
do it's business On-The-Go. This was apparently his second squat,
indicated by a second pile three feet beyond the first.

I slowed to a near stop, and asked the girl "You are going to
clean that up, aren't you?" and received what I assume was a
confused and bewildered look. I quickly added "Do you need a
bag for it?"... [I carry a supply of gallon sized plastic bags
and trail brochures which indicate locations of doggie poop mitts
as part of my In-Your-Face campaign.] She replied that she had
one... as she made a reaching motion into her pocket... at that point
I continued on my way... Last night, on my way home in the dark,
it does appear that someone removed the piles. I can only hope
that it was the child being a responsible pet owner.

[*] = 21211 California Vehicle Code relating to making a
Class I bikeway, ie a multi-use trail, unpassable by a cyclist.

So those are two examples of my trailside conduct. Once I have had the
sign in place for a month, and word gets around, I will become even more
aggressive with dog owners I find not cleaning up the crap. I will not
be approching dog owners not caught in the act, unless they make a comment
about my sign first. Special dog owners... ones that feel they don't need
to clean it up, will have a special place on my WWW page for their picture.

I probably should start thanking those dog owners which I see complying
with the park district rules as well. A couple of weeks ago I spotted an
attempted clean-up... I don't know what the story was... all I saw was
a pile of crap on the trail and a partialy used poop-mitt next to it...
No idea why the person didn't complete the process. A little later on
that same trip, I passed a woman walking a dog and swinging a plastic
bag in her other hand. It was only as I passed that I noticed that the
contents were brown.

Earlier this week I passed a family and their dogs taking a walk. As I
was approaching, I noticed what a ppeared to be a "bow" on the larger
dog. As I passed I realized that this "bow" was in reality several
large gallon sized plastic bags rolled up and stuck under the dog's collar,
creating a fan-out look.

Over the last few weeks I've had several joggers and walkers call out
to me as I passed "Thanks for the sign."

You might not be a dog owner in my area, but if you aren't cleaning up
after your dog, you can be sure there are other trail users in your area
just as upset at you as I am over the ones in my area.

Please clean up after your dog when in public spaces.


http://www.io.com/~tweek/cocowhine/poop.html


--
tw...@netcom.com tw...@io.com | "Well, you and I would differ on
DoD #MCMLX tw...@ccnet.com | what's ignorance and educated."
sig...@tweekco.ness.com | - Senator Ernest Hollings

Kieron Dodds

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Apr 18, 1998, 3:00:00 AM4/18/98
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Good grief, just what this world needs, Poop Police.

Reverend Tweek wrote in message ...


>First off, this is not an attempt to bait a flame war... if I wanted
>that, I would have added alt.tasteless to the newsgroup line. This is
>a plea to dog owners to be responsible pet owners and not demand that
>other people deal with your dog's crap.


Snipped the details of being a poop policeman...

Kieron Dodds

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Apr 18, 1998, 3:00:00 AM4/18/98
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Buddy, I'm responsible about my dogs. If you said something to me, you'ld
likely have your mode of transport jammed squarely, sideways, just where the
sun don't shine. Eventually you'll meet someone like me whose fed up with
prissy little anal-retentive neat freaks who take it upon themselves to go
on poop patrol.

R R M Tweek wrote in message ...


>Kieron Dodds <nospam...@nospam.email.msn.com> wrote:
>>Good grief, just what this world needs, Poop Police.
>

>Poop Police? Hardly. I just don't want to be splattered with
>your dog's crap when I am using the shared trail. A "police" would
>be looking out for others. I'm looking out for myself.

R R M Tweek

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Apr 19, 1998, 3:00:00 AM4/19/98
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Kieron Dodds <nospam...@nospam.email.msn.com> wrote:
>Good grief, just what this world needs, Poop Police.

Poop Police? Hardly. I just don't want to be splattered with
your dog's crap when I am using the shared trail. A "police" would
be looking out for others. I'm looking out for myself.

R R M Tweek

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Apr 19, 1998, 3:00:00 AM4/19/98
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Kieron Dodds <nospam...@nospam.email.msn.com> wrote:
>Buddy, I'm responsible about my dogs. If you said something to me, you'ld
>likely have your mode of transport jammed squarely, sideways, just where the
>sun don't shine.

If you aren't cleaning up your dog's shit when it craps on the trail, then
you are not a responsible pet owner.

Your right to walk your dog on the trail DOES NOT mean that I have to
get splattered with your dog's shit. If you feel it does, then you
should have no problem with me throwing the shit in your face as I pass.

>Eventually you'll meet someone like me whose fed up with
>prissy little anal-retentive neat freaks who take it upon themselves to go
>on poop patrol.

Neat freak? Lets just say I don't like to get home covered in shit.

Kieron Dodds

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Apr 19, 1998, 3:00:00 AM4/19/98
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R R M Tweek wrote in message ...

>Kieron Dodds <nospam...@nospam.email.msn.com> wrote:
>>Buddy, I'm responsible about my dogs. If you said something to me, you'ld
>>likely have your mode of transport jammed squarely, sideways, just where
the
>>sun don't shine.
>
>If you aren't cleaning up your dog's shit when it craps on the trail, then
>you are not a responsible pet owner.


Like I said, I'm responsible about my dogs and I don't need panty-wastes
lecturing me nor do almost all of the people in this group.

>Your right to walk your dog on the trail DOES NOT mean that I have to
>get splattered with your dog's shit. If you feel it does, then you
>should have no problem with me throwing the shit in your face as I pass.


Nor does your right to a trail give you the right to be an obnoxious prig
the second a dog squats. And, buddy, you have no clue what would happen to
you if you so much as raised a hand to me.

>>Eventually you'll meet someone like me whose fed up with
>>prissy little anal-retentive neat freaks who take it upon themselves to go
>>on poop patrol.
>
>Neat freak? Lets just say I don't like to get home covered in shit.


It's one thing to be clean, it's another to be the self-appointed feces
inspector.


R R M Tweek

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Apr 19, 1998, 3:00:00 AM4/19/98
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In article <6hbtar$5...@argentina.earthlink.net>,

Kieron Dodds <nospam...@nospam.email.msn.com> wrote:
>
>
>Like I said, I'm responsible about my dogs and I don't need panty-wastes
>lecturing me nor do almost all of the people in this group.

If you're a responsible dog owner who cleans up his dog's shit, then
I have no complaint with you. I had stated as much in my original post.

>>Your right to walk your dog on the trail DOES NOT mean that I have to
>>get splattered with your dog's shit. If you feel it does, then you
>>should have no problem with me throwing the shit in your face as I pass.
>
>Nor does your right to a trail give you the right to be an obnoxious prig
>the second a dog squats. And, buddy, you have no clue what would happen to
>you if you so much as raised a hand to me.

I look forward to meeting you on the trail.

Dave & MaryBeth

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Apr 19, 1998, 3:00:00 AM4/19/98
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Welll first off let ME state that I ALWAYS clean up after my dogs. Now I
have a question for you. I lived in Sonoma County, California for 15 years.
WHY oh why do you bicyclists feel like YOU own the whole road? Many was the
time when I had to get to an appt., driving along my already winding road,
and came across bikers riding 4-6 abreast along the road, totally blocking
out any way for me to pass ?????? These bikers would NOT move, even if I
beeped and beeped. They would all come up from San Francisco for the
weekends and take up all the beautiful county drives they could, stopping
for wine tasting along the way.

The point I am trying to make here is that MOST of the people that post to
this group do so because they are responsible dog owners, concerned with
their dogs welfare, and clening up after them. I wouldn't presume to go to a
biking group and demand that people make way for cars while riding on the
roads. I would assume that the people that post there are people that enjoy
their sport and are responsible riders. So, other than the trolls that
frequent here you are going to strike a cord with many of us already picking
up after our own dogs. We also have been complaining about others that don't
pick up poop. I go to a park every day with my dogs and step in the
irresponsible dog walker's crap. It does bother me and MOST of all the other
people in this group. I would suggest you at least tone down what looks to
me, your holier than tho attitude...IOW as Keiron said the 'poop police'
attitude....and come here nicely asking if we had any other ways we could
suggest how you can go about bettering the trails and your requests.


This is
>a plea to dog owners to be responsible pet owners and not demand that
>other people deal with your dog's crap.
>
>

> Before someone goes of on a tangent citing that there are cyclists and
> skaters who use the trail irresponsibly, and thus I as a cyclist have no
> right to complain about dog owners, let me inform you that I try my best
> to be responsible in my usage of the trail, and I am not one of those
> speeding cyclists who doesn't call out before passing you from the rear.
> Take up your complaints about those cyclists and skaters, with those
> cyclists and skaters. You have no complaint with me on that score.


By the same token, take this up with the people that you find guilty of the
act. Not a general dog group that, like I already posted ARE mostly
responsible.

Thank you for your time,
MaryBeth

R R M Tweek

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Apr 19, 1998, 3:00:00 AM4/19/98
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Dave & MaryBeth <nospam....@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
>Welll first off let ME state that I ALWAYS clean up after my dogs. Now I
>have a question for you. I lived in Sonoma County, California for 15 years.

Then I have no problem with you.

>WHY oh why do you bicyclists feel like YOU own the whole road? Many was the
>time when I had to get to an appt., driving along my already winding road,
>and came across bikers riding 4-6 abreast along the road, totally blocking
>out any way for me to pass ?????? These bikers would NOT move, even if I
>beeped and beeped. They would all come up from San Francisco for the
>weekends and take up all the beautiful county drives they could, stopping
>for wine tasting along the way.

If it is a winding road and it is unsafe to pass, section 21202(3) of the
California Vehicle Cod allows a cyclist to keep a vehicle from passing
until it is safe to do so. At the same time, section 21750 of the code
states that YOU cannot pass until you can do so at a safe distance and
without interfering with the safe operation of the overtaken bicycle.
Now if the above was the case, and after there were five or more cars
behind the cyclists and they didn't pull over where a sufficient area for
a safe turnout existed, then THEY are in violation of section 21656 of the
CVC.

BTW, I especcially like the way you condemn the cyclists for acting like they
own the road, but you have no problem calling it "my already winding road."
Also, if you want to argue this point, take it to rec.bicycles.misc or
ba.bicycles. It has absolutely nothing to do with dogs and I won't continue
any further along this tangent other than to say that if the cyclists
continued along in your way beyond the allowances in the vehicle code you
have no complaint with me.


>The point I am trying to make here is that MOST of the people that post to
>this group do so because they are responsible dog owners, concerned with
>their dogs welfare, and clening up after them. I wouldn't presume to go to a
>biking group and demand that people make way for cars while riding on the
>roads. I would assume that the people that post there are people that enjoy
>their sport and are responsible riders.

Then you presume wrong. In the cycling newsgroups, we have those who love
to think that stopsigns and red lights don't apply to them. We have those
who feel that riding on the sidewalk is legal (it isn't). Just as they
post to the cycling newsgroup for their interest in only one aspect of the
cycling world, I'm sure the rec.pets.dogs newsgroups have those dog owners
who are here for only one or two aspects of the dog ownership life and
couldn't give a damn if they leave their dog's poop behind.

They may be here because:

- Their dog barks all night long and now the neighbors are
pissed off enough that they are taking legal action... and
the dog owner wants a quick fix solution.

- They just noticed something their dog has been doing and now
show enough concern to ask in a newsgroup... even though maybe
they should go and ask a vet about it.

Any others? I'm sure that if you think about it, you can come
up with more.

>So, other than the trolls that
>frequent here you are going to strike a cord with many of us already picking
>up after our own dogs. We also have been complaining about others that don't
>pick up poop. I go to a park every day with my dogs and step in the
>irresponsible dog walker's crap. It does bother me and MOST of all the other
>people in this group.

And there you concede with the use of the word "MOST".

I believe I clearly stated in my original post, that I had no complaint
with those owners who do clean up after their dogs.

>I would suggest you at least tone down what looks to
>me, your holier than tho attitude...IOW as Keiron said the 'poop police'
>attitude....and come here nicely asking if we had any other ways we could
>suggest how you can go about bettering the trails and your requests.

As to the holier-than-tho attitude, maybe I didn't make it clear in the
two examples... the kids were already walking on, leaving the dog crap
behind, and the woman with the dog squating off the side of the trail,
had the dog doing its business in tall grass under a low bush and her
stance was that of ready to head on once the dog was done. It was
apparent that neither would have picked up the crap.

As far as asking nicely... Sorry, but I'm done with that. It didn't work.
I'm being an asshole now.


>> Before someone goes of on a tangent citing that there are cyclists and
>> skaters who use the trail irresponsibly, and thus I as a cyclist have no
>> right to complain about dog owners, let me inform you that I try my best
>> to be responsible in my usage of the trail, and I am not one of those
>> speeding cyclists who doesn't call out before passing you from the rear.
>> Take up your complaints about those cyclists and skaters, with those
>> cyclists and skaters. You have no complaint with me on that score.
>

>By the same token, take this up with the people that you find guilty of the
>act. Not a general dog group that, like I already posted ARE mostly
>responsible.

You conveniently forgot to quote the following text from my original post:

] My complaint isn't with all dog owners, for there are some (I wish I
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
] could say many, but I just don't see that in my experience) who fulfill


] their responsibilities WRT my gripe. My complaint is with those dog
] owners who take their dog for a walk on the trail and don't...


] I've had enough, and I've started an In-Your-Face campaign right back at


] the irresponsible dog owners. For the three weeks, as soon as I hit the

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
] trail section of my commute, I stop and attach one of two velcro equiped


] signs to the back of my bike.


As for my taking it up with the people I find irresponsible, that is
exactly what I am doing... what I posted about, when I mentioned my
stopping and offering a plastic bag to those walking away after their
dog craps.

Derek Broughton, Coco & Donka

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Apr 19, 1998, 3:00:00 AM4/19/98
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Reverend Tweek wrote in message ...

>First off, this is not an attempt to bait a flame war... if I wanted
>that, I would have added alt.tasteless to the newsgroup line. This
is
>a plea to dog owners to be responsible pet owners and not demand that
>other people deal with your dog's crap.


My, my, my. Methinks they doth protest too much. Only two people
have responded to this post at the point I read it, but both got
immediately defensive - one going off on a totally pointless diatribe
about cyclists that doesn't belong in rpd.*.

Most of us aren't going to have any problem with this. My experience
is that _most_ dog-walkers (at least in my area) are picking up their
dog's poop. Unfortunately, most isn't good enough, as it only takes
one to ruin your day.

However, you do go overboard about the old-shit issue. In fact, dog
feces rarely stink once they've cooled off, and as long as they're off
the jogger's trail, they'll be totally destroyed by bugs in a couple
of weeks.

Keep up the fight.

Derek (cyclist & responsible dog owner)

DoezHeLuvU

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Apr 19, 1998, 3:00:00 AM4/19/98
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I would rather slow down a little for dogs walking their humans than the bikers
or the people who walk around at dark in the middle of the road with dark
clothes on. Jen mom to Elmo

Dave & MaryBeth

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Apr 19, 1998, 3:00:00 AM4/19/98
to

R R M Tweek wrote in message ...


>Dave & MaryBeth <nospam....@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
>>Welll first off let ME state that I ALWAYS clean up after my dogs. Now I
>>have a question for you. I lived in Sonoma County, California for 15
years.
>
>Then I have no problem with you.


Good, then why go on? <G>

>>WHY oh why do you bicyclists feel like YOU own the whole road? Many was
the
>>time when I had to get to an appt., driving along my already winding road,
>>and came across bikers riding 4-6 abreast along the road, totally blocking
>>out any way for me to pass ?????? These bikers would NOT move, even if I
>>beeped and beeped. They would all come up from San Francisco for the
>>weekends and take up all the beautiful county drives they could, stopping
>>for wine tasting along the way.
>
>If it is a winding road and it is unsafe to pass, section 21202(3) of the
>California Vehicle Cod allows a cyclist to keep a vehicle from passing
>until it is safe to do so. At the same time, section 21750 of the code
>states that YOU cannot pass until you can do so at a safe distance and
>without interfering with the safe operation of the overtaken bicycle.

So are you saying that I should be late for work, appts or whatever because
I can't pass a bike on my way into town?
These are people that I said are riding 4-6 ABREAST....not singular lanes. I
obviously KNOW not to pass until it is safe.....I lived there and dealt with
this for 15 years. I was talking about irresponsible riders. So if you are
not one then I have no problem with you, dear one.

>Now if the above was the case, and after there were five or more cars
>behind the cyclists and they didn't pull over where a sufficient area for
>a safe turnout existed, then THEY are in violation of section 21656 of the
>CVC.

Oh believe me they would have more than a dozen behind them and still refuse
to move.

>BTW, I especcially like the way you condemn the cyclists for acting like
they
>own the road, but you have no problem calling it "my already winding road."


Ok clarification here.....this was a PRIVATE road winding thru OUR property
as a shortcut to different wineries or other roads. So yes it was MY road
<G>

>Also, if you want to argue this point, take it to rec.bicycles.misc or
>ba.bicycles.

You are the one who brought up bicycles here....I was only using it to prove
a point. <G>

It has absolutely nothing to do with dogs and I won't continue
>any further along this tangent other than to say that if the cyclists
>continued along in your way beyond the allowances in the vehicle code you
>have no complaint with me.


The reason I brought this up....and stated so in my original post was to
make a point.....you see not everyone follows the rules of the road....just
as not everyone follows the laws of cleaning up after their dogs. If you
had, as proper netiquette requests, read this group awhile before posting,
you would have read MANY posts complaining about the very thing you are. If
you don't see any posts there is a nice tool called dejanews.com.

>>The point I am trying to make here is that MOST of the people that post to
>>this group do so because they are responsible dog owners, concerned with
>>their dogs welfare, and clening up after them. I wouldn't presume to go to
a
>>biking group and demand that people make way for cars while riding on the
>>roads. I would assume that the people that post there are people that
enjoy
>>their sport and are responsible riders.
>
>Then you presume wrong. In the cycling newsgroups, we have those who love
>to think that stopsigns and red lights don't apply to them. We have those
>who feel that riding on the sidewalk is legal (it isn't).

Okay I concede I should have said I presume that MOST of the people in the
biking groups would be responsible people that follow the rules....you see I
TRY to give people the benefit of the doubt....and think the best until
proven wrong. I don't assume people are all assholes ...until they prove it
themselves or admit it <BG>

Just as they
>post to the cycling newsgroup for their interest in only one aspect of the
>cycling world, I'm sure the rec.pets.dogs newsgroups have those dog owners
>who are here for only one or two aspects of the dog ownership life and
>couldn't give a damn if they leave their dog's poop behind.
>

>>So, other than the trolls that
>>frequent here you are going to strike a cord with many of us already
picking
>>up after our own dogs. We also have been complaining about others that
don't
>>pick up poop. I go to a park every day with my dogs and step in the
>>irresponsible dog walker's crap. It does bother me and MOST of all the
other
>>people in this group.
>
>And there you concede with the use of the word "MOST".

And your point here? I did say MOST.....as you will find out by the many
replies you will receive <G>


And you, tho you did post that I conceded MOST people here pick up,
conveniently overlooked it unless it was to prove your point <G>

>
>As for my taking it up with the people I find irresponsible, that is
>exactly what I am doing...

Good, keep up the good work.....on your trail with the people that don't
pick up. I have been a member of this group for over a year and have seen
MANY posts complaining about the idiots that don't pick up. What I'm trying
to get across here is that I understand your problem....as do MOST of the
regulars here. (Please DO note I said MOST<G>) SO my point was you're coming
in here complaining about dog owners in general not following the curb laws.
We are all varied people and I am sure just as you're a curteous biker, as
you say, MOST of us are curteous dog owners. The reason I generalized bikers
was to prove a point....and it worked. It struck a nerve with you....just as
your post struck a nerve with me...a responsible dog owner. No need to flame
me over this. This is, after all, a discussion group.

what I posted about, when I mentioned my
>stopping and offering a plastic bag to those walking away after their
>dog craps.


Good for you, so do I and many on this group :)

I also, BTW carry extra bags to pick up after OTHER people's dogs all the
time. Especaily on the beach. The way I look at it is why let some jerk who
doesn't pick up after their dog ruin it for all of us that do? If we don't
the dogs won't be allowed anywhere.

MaryBeth

Nancy E.Holmes or R. Nelson Ruffin

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Apr 19, 1998, 3:00:00 AM4/19/98
to

Interesting that there are actually mitts and I assume trash cans provided
along your trail to make clean up easier - I certainly think that in areas
where clean up is a requirement the areas should have *at least* available
trash containers that are emptied regularly. It has always seemed futile to
me to have clean up laws and then no place to put the cleaned up stuff -
and if you are walking multiple dogs carrying it along once it is outside
the dog is not as easy as one might expect <g>.
I certainly hope that Mr 'In Your Face' does not come up against someone
with an "In Your Face" dog who will correct the aggressive stance of the
bicyclist.
While agreeing that owners should clean up I do have to wonder just how the
Bicyclists would feel about an in your face campaign to throw speeders off
their bikes say - a nice stick in the wheels would work - or maybe just an
open baggie of well tossed dog poop....
Nancy

Kieron Dodds

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Apr 19, 1998, 3:00:00 AM4/19/98
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R R M Tweek wrote in message ...

>In article <6hbtar$5...@argentina.earthlink.net>,
>Kieron Dodds <nospam...@nospam.email.msn.com> wrote:
>>
>>Like I said, I'm responsible about my dogs and I don't need panty-wastes
>>lecturing me nor do almost all of the people in this group.
>
>If you're a responsible dog owner who cleans up his dog's shit, then
>I have no complaint with you. I had stated as much in my original post.


As you stated in your original post? In your original post you detailed how
you routinely harass all dog owners as soon as their dog(s) start(s)
squatting.

>>>Your right to walk your dog on the trail DOES NOT mean that I have to
>>>get splattered with your dog's shit. If you feel it does, then you
>>>should have no problem with me throwing the shit in your face as I pass.
>>
>>Nor does your right to a trail give you the right to be an obnoxious prig
>>the second a dog squats. And, buddy, you have no clue what would happen
to
>>you if you so much as raised a hand to me.
>
>I look forward to meeting you on the trail.


Yeah, whatever dude. You have absolutely no clue what would happen to you
were you to attack me in any way. Being drawn and quartered springs to
mind.

Kieron Dodds

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Apr 19, 1998, 3:00:00 AM4/19/98
to

Dave & MaryBeth wrote in message <6hcuec$8...@sjx-ixn2.ix.netcom.com>...


>Welll first off let ME state that I ALWAYS clean up after my dogs. Now I
>have a question for you. I lived in Sonoma County, California for 15 years.

>WHY oh why do you bicyclists feel like YOU own the whole road? Many was the
>time when I had to get to an appt., driving along my already winding road,
>and came across bikers riding 4-6 abreast along the road, totally blocking
>out any way for me to pass ?????? These bikers would NOT move, even if I
>beeped and beeped. They would all come up from San Francisco for the
>weekends and take up all the beautiful county drives they could, stopping
>for wine tasting along the way.


Amen. When I go roller-blading on shared trails, it's quite common for
cyclists to "take over" the trail. Being that you can go much faster on a
bike, they routinely come up behind and speed by skaters, pedestrians, and
dog walkers alike. What? Do we all have eyes on the backs of our heads?
Even a warning bell or beep or "coming through" isn't sufficient and I've
seen quite a few accidents that resulted in injuries because of the complete
disregard and irresponsibility of cyclists. How's about a "On your left" or
"On your right" guys? There are also those cyclists who seem to find it
amusing to "buzz" dog walkers (which is why I never walk my dogs near those
trails). This type of blatant idiot would likely be de-biked (at least) if
he/she decided to come up on me and my dogs in such a manner.

>The point I am trying to make here is that MOST of the people that post to
>this group do so because they are responsible dog owners, concerned with
>their dogs welfare, and clening up after them. I wouldn't presume to go to
a
>biking group and demand that people make way for cars while riding on the
>roads. I would assume that the people that post there are people that enjoy

>their sport and are responsible riders. So, other than the trolls that


>frequent here you are going to strike a cord with many of us already
picking
>up after our own dogs. We also have been complaining about others that
don't
>pick up poop. I go to a park every day with my dogs and step in the
>irresponsible dog walker's crap. It does bother me and MOST of all the
other

>people in this group. I would suggest you at least tone down what looks to


>me, your holier than tho attitude...IOW as Keiron said the 'poop police'
>attitude....and come here nicely asking if we had any other ways we could
>suggest how you can go about bettering the trails and your requests.
>


Exactly, albeit said much more nicely than I did.

David Bradley

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Apr 19, 1998, 3:00:00 AM4/19/98
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"Kieron Dodds" <nospam...@nospam.email.msn.com> wrote:

>Amen. When I go roller-blading on shared trails, it's quite common for
>cyclists to "take over" the trail.

I think all groups have their fair share of idiots. I nearly ran into the same
guy twice. He was looking down at his roller blades and wasn't looking where
he was going. Dogs on flexi-leads can provide some interesting obstacles for
bikers and walkers alike.

Personally the people that really make me mad are the ones that dispose of
gum. I'd rather have poop on my shoes than the sticky mess that gum makes.

The bottom line, is all users of public ways should be respectful of others.

---------------------
David Bradley bra...@erinet.com
Software Engineer


KeenaGo

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Apr 19, 1998, 3:00:00 AM4/19/98
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In article <tweekEr...@netcom.com>, tw...@netcom.com (R R M Tweek) quotes:

>Kieron Dodds <nospam...@nospam.email.msn.com> blathered


>>Buddy, I'm responsible about my dogs. If you said something to me, you'ld
>>likely have your mode of transport jammed squarely, sideways, just where the
>>sun don't shine.


*It was responded with:

*If you aren't cleaning up your dog's shit when it craps on the trail, then
*you are not a responsible pet owner.

If you don't want a flame war do not respond to this gentleman's posts. Just
my opinion that he delibrately antagonizes to get you to defend your position.
So just know there are a lot of dog owners that feel it should not be our
responsibility to take on others crap. I clean up my puppy's "business" and
when I am out at the park I clean up one other pile each time I am there. I
think it's stinky and my kids step in it and track it in my house. I agree
100% with you and I own a dog or vice versa. If a dog owner is being
responsible your sign should be a welcome sight. I know I get tired of being
the dog owner that cleans and someone else gets a free ride. So keep it up!!
If someone has a problem with your campaign then they are not a respnsible pet
owner and should be. So enough said and leave an antagonizing response where
it belongs...............deleted.

Good luck,
And thanks for use of non-polluting mode of transportation.

Corinna and Kira the mostest beautiful smelling poops in the world......NOT

Susan Mudgett aka little gator

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Apr 19, 1998, 3:00:00 AM4/19/98
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Reverend Tweek (tw...@netcom-NO.SPAM-com) wrote:

: - Two weeks ago I passed a woman with a dog on the other end


: of the leash. The dog was squating off in the bushes and the
: woman was biding her time. My In-Your-Face comment as I passed
: by was "That's going to stink really BAD soon."

And how do you know she wasn't about to clean it up as soon as the dog
was finished?

R R M Tweek

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Apr 19, 1998, 3:00:00 AM4/19/98
to

Dave & MaryBeth <nospam....@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
>
>>
>>Then I have no problem with you.
>
>Good, then why go on? <G>

Why go one with you, or in this group? I'm simply responding to all the
points you brought up, and as far as the thread, I feel that there may
be some of those irresponsible dog owners hanging out here.

>>If it is a winding road and it is unsafe to pass, section 21202(3) of the
>>California Vehicle Cod allows a cyclist to keep a vehicle from passing
>>until it is safe to do so. At the same time, section 21750 of the code
>>states that YOU cannot pass until you can do so at a safe distance and
>>without interfering with the safe operation of the overtaken bicycle.
>
>So are you saying that I should be late for work, appts or whatever because
>I can't pass a bike on my way into town?

I'm giving you one interpretation of the limited facts you posted. I'm
not saying that you shouldn't pass them. I'm not saying that they should
keep you from passing them. I pointed out the circumstances which need to
be met before they can keep you from passing them LEGALLY.

>These are people that I said are riding 4-6 ABREAST....not singular lanes. I
>obviously KNOW not to pass until it is safe.....I lived there and dealt with
>this for 15 years. I was talking about irresponsible riders. So if you are
>not one then I have no problem with you, dear one.

I didn't assume you had one with me. You asked me about a specific
situation and I gave you my opinion. I'm probably the first cyclist
to admit that there are jerks out there on bicycles. During the months
after the S.F. Critical Mass fiasco, the sign on the back of my bike did
not read "clean up poop". It read "Not A Critical mAsshole". Come over
to the cycling newsgroups and bitch about inconsiderate cyclists, and I'll
JOIN you. They even have a special section on my WWW page.


>>Now if the above was the case, and after there were five or more cars
>>behind the cyclists and they didn't pull over where a sufficient area for
>>a safe turnout existed, then THEY are in violation of section 21656 of the
>>CVC.
>
>Oh believe me they would have more than a dozen behind them and still refuse
>to move.

Then they were in violation of the vehicle code, and from what you mention
later on, apparently asshole cyclists who feel that they have a right to
live in a world without cars.

Believe me, I know what you are trying to get across by making sure I
don't lump all dog owners into the same category as the irresponsible
ones. I put up the same fight against folks trying to lump all cyclists
into the car hating enviro-nazi (hope that doesn't invoke Godwin) jerks
who would rather the world not have cars. That is why I was careful to
state in my first post that I was only bitching about a certain subset of
dog owners.

>>BTW, I especcially like the way you condemn the cyclists for acting like
>they
>>own the road, but you have no problem calling it "my already winding road."
>
>Ok clarification here.....this was a PRIVATE road winding thru OUR property
>as a shortcut to different wineries or other roads. So yes it was MY road
><G>

OK, then I'll allow that. ;-)

>>Also, if you want to argue this point, take it to rec.bicycles.misc or
>>ba.bicycles.
>
>You are the one who brought up bicycles here....I was only using it to prove
>a point. <G>

I brought it up only so as to prevent this exact tanget which we are
going on right now. I'm willing to argue it here if you want, but I
was trying to be courteous to your newsgroup by keeping it the focus
on dogs. I thought out my post very carefully before making it.

BTW, about a month ago I did a trial balloon of this same topic in the
cycling newsgroup... and added the mostly bogus newsgroup rec.pets.dogs
to see what sort of outrage I'd get from the cyclists for what I planned
to do. Sees that the only one who complained was one who INSISTED that
rec.pets.dogs was a valid newsgroup... and insisted that it was my duty
to pick up the crap off the trail... as well as to feed milkbones or steaks
to dogs I didn't want chasing me. (He was reading it in the cycling
newsgroup and not the bogus group)

BTW, Kieron... I know you aren't all that bad... I saw your post in
alt.revenge which suggested that placing dog poop found on someone's
driveway back on the driveway of the owner of the dog which deposited it.
Just to place my position in perspective, I wouldn't do that... probably.
If I had to pick it up I'd probably toss it out and then approach the
neighbor about it... although if the neighbor didn't solve the problem
after that and it continued... well, aybe I would resort to your suggestion.

Take the above as an indication that when I ASKED you if you would feel that
it was within my right to throw the dog crap your dog left behind in your
face, it was a completely theoretical question of expecting to be treated
as you treat others, NOT an indication that I would take this approach. It
is my impression that you are taking all my gripes personally, even though
I feel confident that I am placing enough qualifications into my writing
that shows it only applies to a specific subset of the entire group.

> It has absolutely nothing to do with dogs and I won't continue
>>any further along this tangent other than to say that if the cyclists
>>continued along in your way beyond the allowances in the vehicle code you
>>have no complaint with me.
>
>The reason I brought this up....and stated so in my original post was to
>make a point.....you see not everyone follows the rules of the road....just
>as not everyone follows the laws of cleaning up after their dogs. If you
>had, as proper netiquette requests, read this group awhile before posting,
>you would have read MANY posts complaining about the very thing you are. If
>you don't see any posts there is a nice tool called dejanews.com.

Actually, I have read the group for about a month. The thing which makes
my post different from any of those other posts complaining about the
same thing, is that I am specifying the actions I am taking now to try
to educate irresponsible dog owners that I am fed up with it. And yes,
I know much about DeJaNews. I use it all the time and have used it on
your newsgroup. Currently, (not counting this thread) "bicycle poop" shows
one post... not related. "bike poop" has ten, although they don't talk
about what I talk about... the one which comes closest is one discussing
the springer where the poster mentions that she has to stop when her dog
poops... nothing about cleaning it up though. "poop pick" nets 419 posts,
but ost of those are in rec.pets.dogs.behavior and deal with dogs eating
their own poop. There is at least one decent sized thread in there (dog
pollution) which some folks comment upon cleaning up other dog's messes
in order to prevent people like me from going off the wall. ;-)

Nothing in ther that I found which mentions the problem of a cyclist getting
splattered when not missing the pile... and if you think someone has to be
blind not to miss it, now that the days are getting longer, it's only one
day a week that I'll have to traverse the trail in darkness.

>>Then you presume wrong. In the cycling newsgroups, we have those who love
>>to think that stopsigns and red lights don't apply to them. We have those
>>who feel that riding on the sidewalk is legal (it isn't).
>
>Okay I concede I should have said I presume that MOST of the people in the
>biking groups would be responsible people that follow the rules....you see I
>TRY to give people the benefit of the doubt....and think the best until
>proven wrong. I don't assume people are all assholes ...until they prove it
>themselves or admit it <BG>

Believe it. There are mouth breathers all around. Above you talked about
following netiquette rules before making my post. Now assume that it's a
given that I'm going to make my post somewhere on the net. Netiquette
dictates that I chose the most appropriate newsgroup(s) for my post. Can
you suggest a more appropriate newsgroup where I might find a higher figure
of irresponsible dog owners than these two newsgroups? (If you noticed, I
specifically avoided the behavior group because I already decided that there
would be very few if any of my intended target there.)

I can't find rec.pets.dogs.owners.irresponsible or similar. As far as I
can tell, these two groups are the most appropriate for finding the largest
number of irresponsible dog owners with the fewest number of innocents.
[read the above CAREFULLY! alt.hiking might have one irresponsible dog
owner and 30,000 innocents... rec.pets.dogs might have 10 irresponsible
dog owners and 30,000 innocents. That's what I mean by fewer number of
innocents.]

>>And there you concede with the use of the word "MOST".
>
>And your point here? I did say MOST.....as you will find out by the many
>replies you will receive <G>

But you didn't say "ALL". That implies that there are some here which
are irresponsible dog owners and those are the target of my post.


>And you, tho you did post that I conceded MOST people here pick up,
>conveniently overlooked it unless it was to prove your point <G>

I didn't overlook it. I have continually stated that my target of these
posts are the irresponsible dog owners.

>>As for my taking it up with the people I find irresponsible, that is
>>exactly what I am doing...
>
>Good, keep up the good work.....on your trail with the people that don't
>pick up. I have been a member of this group for over a year and have seen
>MANY posts complaining about the idiots that don't pick up. What I'm trying
>to get across here is that I understand your problem....as do MOST of the
>regulars here.

Bless the regulars here... but I'm sure there are some lurkers that
don't... and I'm not placing it beyond the realm of insanity that some of
the trail users I pass daily might pop in here ready to bitch about some
creep on a bike with a sign demanding they clean up their dog's poop. And
as far as your archived posts on the same topic... someone who joins the
newsgroup to find out about soething else, and if they happen to be an
irresponsible dog owner, might just see this thread and read it (even
more so now with all the followups I am getting ;-) )

>(Please DO note I said MOST<G>) SO my point was you're coming
>in here complaining about dog owners in general not following the curb laws.

Whatever the ratio of responsible dog owners VS irresponsible dog owners
here, I don't see any newsgroup where I can find a larger number of the
irresponsible type.

IIRC, what I said in my post was "MOST in my experience" WRT on the specific
trail I use. In my experince, while I have seen hundreds of dumps occuring
over the last year, I do not recall seeing a single cleanup in action. If
the time required for cleanup is 1/2 the time required for the dump, then
the odds would mean that I should have seen 50 cleanups occuring.

I can't speak from experience about folks on other trails around the
world, but on this specific 6 mile segment of the Lafayette-Moraga
Regional Trail, that *is* my observed experience. [It is in these same
communities where pedestrians must clear crosswalks for the BMW's, Volvo's
and Mercedes which don't even slow down. I'm not against believing that
both are an attitude unique to this geographic location.)

>We are all varied people and I am sure just as you're a curteous biker, as
>you say, MOST of us are curteous dog owners. The reason I generalized bikers
>was to prove a point....and it worked. It struck a nerve with you....just as
>your post struck a nerve with me...a responsible dog owner. No need to flame
>me over this. This is, after all, a discussion group.

It only struck a nerve because I had already anticipated it, and was (I
thought) carefull to state that I as a cyclist was not like some of the
others, and that I was directing my post towards those dog owners who
were irresponsible. IMO, Neither generalization should have occured.

> what I posted about, when I mentioned my
>>stopping and offering a plastic bag to those walking away after their
>>dog craps.
>
>Good for you, so do I and many on this group :)

Really, I'm not an asshole to every dog owner on the trail. In fact, I
seem to be in a little predicament as most of the regular dog walkers
on the trail I am familiar with and have been greeting them as I pass
for the last year. I *know* that some of these folks don't clean up
after their dogs (from seeing them over the last year) and now I have
to face greeting them *knowing* that someday I may happen across them
again as they walk away from their dog's business. For these folks, I
only hope that they get the hint from my sign before this occurs.

>I also, BTW carry extra bags to pick up after OTHER people's dogs all the
>time. Especaily on the beach. The way I look at it is why let some jerk who
>doesn't pick up after their dog ruin it for all of us that do? If we don't
>the dogs won't be allowed anywhere.

I guess I'll never be a good pet owner. I thought I put enough "rewards"
in the post to not make me look like a dog hater. ;-) I seem to recall
on threat in one of these groups (or maybe it was rec.pet.dogs/rec.pets.dog
[only one "s" whichever it was]) which suggested that dogs trained off leash
are more predictable than those kept on a leash at all times. I have to
agree (and I believe I mentioned this in my first post) and I will now
elaborate. Except in a few cases, most of the off leash dogs I have come
across on the trail are better mannered than those on the leash. In fact
I've had very few close calls with those off the leash... one which wouldn't
give up the chase, and the owner had no voice control over it, and claimed
that the dog must "hate me"... and a Collie about a month ago who crossed
the trail right in front of me in the dark... I'm sure we both were
startled... and who started to chase me while growling... but a single
"go home" caused him to break of the chase. On the other hand, there was
a beautiful sleek black dog (of some sort) who came out of a yard and
started racing me on a city street. At first I thought it was another
attempted attack but I quickly realized that the dog wanted to run...
unfortunately this wasn't the place. Within five seconds I slowed down
and commanded the dog to "go home". He wandered around the front of me
and started heading along the curb back from where he came. As I started
out again and was about 100 ft further along, I heard some tires squeel
and a thud. I turned around in time to see poor dog jump up from in
front of the car and head back onto his property. This one really made
me feel sad. Although I had eye to eye contact with this dog for less
than five seconds, I really felt I knew him... better than any other dog
I've known. [Sorry, Don't know what this has to do with the point I'm
trying to make... guess I just needed to vent some sadness.]

Anyway, on the trail, I don't mind seeing dogs off leash (and I don't
complain even though rules say they should be leashed) if they keep out
of the way and act in a predictable manner and the owner is capable of
control with the voice. On the other hand, I do have problems with those
dog owners who walk down one side of the trail holding one of those
retractable 50 million foot leashes where the dog is off in the grass on
the opposite side of thr trail... this wouldn't be a problem except for
the fact that the dog owner is oblivious to everything (dog, suroundings,
etc) and has the ears covered with a walkman headset and can't even hear you
calling out when you are 10 feet away. There actually used to be one woman
who walked the trail wearing headsets and hooked the retractable leash
housing to her belt at her backside... not wanting to know were her dog
was or doing... I got the impression that walking the dog was a chore and
she was going to make the best of it for herself. But in contrast, there
are the dogs who will sit on the side whenever a bike approaches. I've
actually seen someone training a dog in this fashion, and the owner is
actually aware of traffic on the trail over 500 feet in each direction,
and when a bike is spotted, the owner would stop the dog and have it
sit, and then hold the leash to the ground with the foot until the bike
has passed. Interesting.

Well, It looks like somehow, despite my precautions, I got off on the
wrong foot with this group. I wouldn't say it's not partially my
fault... I'll put up with sh** for so long, but when I blow, look out.
Hopefully I've cleared up just exactly who I am targeting with my post,
and the reason why I chose this group.

And for Kieron, melow a bit about some of my responses to you. I'm a
cynical and sarcastic bastard. ;-)

R R M Tweek

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Apr 19, 1998, 3:00:00 AM4/19/98
to

You forgot "bikers in dark clothes and no lights doing the wrong way on
a street at night and headed right at you." They're not left untouched
on my www page either.

R R M Tweek

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Apr 19, 1998, 3:00:00 AM4/19/98
to

Kieron Dodds <nospam...@nospam.email.msn.com> wrote:
>
>
>Amen. When I go roller-blading on shared trails, it's quite common for
>cyclists to "take over" the trail. Being that you can go much faster on a
>bike, they routinely come up behind and speed by skaters, pedestrians, and
>dog walkers alike. What? Do we all have eyes on the backs of our heads?
>Even a warning bell or beep or "coming through" isn't sufficient and I've
>seen quite a few accidents that resulted in injuries because of the complete
>disregard and irresponsibility of cyclists.

No disagreement here. I use a bell about 200 ft out, and then call out
when I am about 50 ft out. There are lots of cyclists that do not
however. I will not pass anyone when there is oncoming users which
would all pass at the same point. There are cyclist which will however.


>How's about a "On your left" or
>"On your right" guys? There are also those cyclists who seem to find it
>amusing to "buzz" dog walkers (which is why I never walk my dogs near those
>trails). This type of blatant idiot would likely be de-biked (at least) if
>he/she decided to come up on me and my dogs in such a manner.


I found "on your left" or "on your right" to be misinterpreted to often
by newbie trail users. I use "passing... left" or "passing... right"
so as to not have the newbie trailuser interpret "on your left" as a command.
The reason for the pause is to serve as a break until they are fully paying
attention to the next word. Sometimes I will only call out "passing" if the
person is walking a dog and they are on one side of the trail with the
dog on the other. I will complete the callout with right or left once I
see which side they prefer to clear. If the owner is facing the side of
the trail, even if out of my path, I still call out "passing... behind you".

R R M Tweek

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Apr 19, 1998, 3:00:00 AM4/19/98
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Derek Broughton, Coco & Donka <nos...@usa.net> wrote:
>
>However, you do go overboard about the old-shit issue. In fact, dog
>feces rarely stink once they've cooled off, and as long as they're off
>the jogger's trail, they'll be totally destroyed by bugs in a couple
>of weeks.

I might have gone overboard with the one woman where I commented about
it... especially since more rains were on the way, but it is true that
back in September of 97, three quarters of the trail had a cooked poop
smell that lingered until the rains came.

R R M Tweek

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Apr 19, 1998, 3:00:00 AM4/19/98
to

Nancy E.Holmes or R. Nelson Ruffin <fmka...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
>
>Interesting that there are actually mitts and I assume trash cans provided
>along your trail to make clean up easier - I certainly think that in areas
>where clean up is a requirement the areas should have *at least* available
>trash containers that are emptied regularly. It has always seemed futile to
>me to have clean up laws and then no place to put the cleaned up stuff -
>and if you are walking multiple dogs carrying it along once it is outside
>the dog is not as easy as one might expect <g>.

There are more trash cans along the trail than poop-mitt stations. Over
the entire six mile portion I use, there are three poop-it stations. One
just before the start of the trail at the staging area, one about 2 miles
up the trail, and the third at the Moraga Commons where my trail use ends.

On the other hand, there must be about 10, 55 gallon trash barrels along
the same route. There is no trashcan at the midpoint mitt dispenser, but
there is one within a couple of blocks of it.


>I certainly hope that Mr 'In Your Face' does not come up against someone
>with an "In Your Face" dog who will correct the aggressive stance of the
>bicyclist.

I hope not either, but my in-your-face stance is just words and nothing
which can be considered assault or battery. If they keep it at that
level, then I will have no problem. If they escalate, then they will
be the one who will have to worry about things.

>While agreeing that owners should clean up I do have to wonder just how the
>Bicyclists would feel about an in your face campaign to throw speeders off
>their bikes say - a nice stick in the wheels would work - or maybe just an
>open baggie of well tossed dog poop....

You're taking it one level beyond that which I am taking it to. If you are
taking my comment to Kieron about "how would he feel if...", that was
a purely theoretical question. I have absolutely no intention of chucking
poop at the folks who don't clean it up. I never suggested that I did. What
you might have interpreted as such was just a question asking if he was
willing to be treated as he treats others.

I have no problem with someone asking a speeding cyclist to slow down.

"In-Your-Face" is about being rude right back at them, not attacking them.

R R M Tweek

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Apr 19, 1998, 3:00:00 AM4/19/98
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Susan Mudgett aka little gator <s...@harvee.billerica.ma.us> wrote:
>Reverend Tweek (tw...@netcom-NO.SPAM-com) wrote:
>
>: - Two weeks ago I passed a woman with a dog on the other end

>: of the leash. The dog was squating off in the bushes and the
>: woman was biding her time. My In-Your-Face comment as I passed
>: by was "That's going to stink really BAD soon."
>
>And how do you know she wasn't about to clean it up as soon as the dog
>was finished?

I'd say that her stance of ready to move on once the dog was finished
was a good indication of that. She was on the edge of the paved trail,
partially facing the direction of her travel, and the dog was 5 feet off
the trail, in tall grass under a bush.

R R M Tweek

unread,
Apr 19, 1998, 3:00:00 AM4/19/98
to

KeenaGo <kee...@aol.com> wrote:
>
>If you don't want a flame war do not respond to this gentleman's posts. Just
>my opinion that he delibrately antagonizes to get you to defend your position.

Thanks. I sort of suspected that and wasn't going to respond any further
to his posts covering the same points. I didn't come to start a flame war,
although the publicity can't hurt. ;-)

>So just know there are a lot of dog owners that feel it should not be our
>responsibility to take on others crap. I clean up my puppy's "business" and
>when I am out at the park I clean up one other pile each time I am there. I
>think it's stinky and my kids step in it and track it in my house. I agree
>100% with you and I own a dog or vice versa. If a dog owner is being
>responsible your sign should be a welcome sight.

I was hoping such. It was the same logic I used when I had the "not a
critical masshole" sign last year although the purpose was to keep upset
motorists from endangering me because they might have thought I was just
another own-the-road cyclist. The only group that that sign would have
insulted would have been those cyclists that were the radicals within
the critical mass ride.

>I know I get tired of being
>the dog owner that cleans and someone else gets a free ride. So keep it up!!
>If someone has a problem with your campaign then they are not a respnsible pet
>owner and should be. So enough said and leave an antagonizing response where
>it belongs...............deleted.

Will do. Thanks.

>Good luck,
>And thanks for use of non-polluting mode of transportation.

It started as neccesity last March, and turned into not having the
motivation to fix my motorcycle. Scarry thought is that I think I'm
now a spoke-head. ;-)

Tim and Cheryl

unread,
Apr 19, 1998, 3:00:00 AM4/19/98
to

My my my.. It must be awful tough knowing everything (or at least thinking you do
anyway) I am a responsible dog owner who picks up after my dog. I have stepped
in dog poop, ridden through it on a bike etc, etc... However, I am not that
lonely that I feel the need to obsess myself with it. Get off your pedestal and
enjoy your life.. Life is too short to be miserable.
Cheryl

Kieron Dodds

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Apr 19, 1998, 3:00:00 AM4/19/98
to

David Bradley wrote in message <353a35d8....@nntp.erinet.com>...


>"Kieron Dodds" <nospam...@nospam.email.msn.com> wrote:
>
>>Amen. When I go roller-blading on shared trails, it's quite common for
>>cyclists to "take over" the trail.
>

>I think all groups have their fair share of idiots. I nearly ran into the
same
>guy twice. He was looking down at his roller blades and wasn't looking
where
>he was going. Dogs on flexi-leads can provide some interesting obstacles
for
>bikers and walkers alike.


Oh yeah, roller-bladers can be a pain too, especially when they haven't
learned to stop yet. I've even had such people use me as a stopping post at
times, once some girl took me down with her (wife did NOT appreciate
*that*). Some guy was just walking his Weim. on a flexi today. Never saw
him or the dog before. The dog started getting really aggressive as he
approached us and the guy just wouldn't reel him in. So, yeah, I screamed
at the fool, letting him know that if he persisted in his macho BS display
that his dog would wind up dead. It's amazing how well they can control
their dogs when actual peril is presented to them.

>Personally the people that really make me mad are the ones that dispose of
>gum. I'd rather have poop on my shoes than the sticky mess that gum makes.


Yep. At least poop comes off easily enough.

Kieron Dodds

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Apr 19, 1998, 3:00:00 AM4/19/98
to

R R M Tweek wrote in message ...


>Susan Mudgett aka little gator <s...@harvee.billerica.ma.us> wrote:
>>Reverend Tweek (tw...@netcom-NO.SPAM-com) wrote:
>>
>>: - Two weeks ago I passed a woman with a dog on the other end
>>: of the leash. The dog was squating off in the bushes and the
>>: woman was biding her time. My In-Your-Face comment as I passed
>>: by was "That's going to stink really BAD soon."
>>
>>And how do you know she wasn't about to clean it up as soon as the dog
>>was finished?
>
>I'd say that her stance of ready to move on once the dog was finished
>was a good indication of that. She was on the edge of the paved trail,
>partially facing the direction of her travel, and the dog was 5 feet off

>the trail, in tall grass under a bush.
>


Maybe she was avoiding the smell until it was necessary? I stand as far off
as possible from my guys. You've no indication that she was not going to
pick it up. AND, even if she didn't, do you consistently ride 5 feet off of
the trail under the bushes?

Kieron Dodds

unread,
Apr 19, 1998, 3:00:00 AM4/19/98
to

R R M Tweek wrote in message ...

>Nancy E.Holmes or R. Nelson Ruffin <fmka...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
>>
>>I certainly hope that Mr 'In Your Face' does not come up against someone
>>with an "In Your Face" dog who will correct the aggressive stance of the
>>bicyclist.
>
>I hope not either, but my in-your-face stance is just words and nothing
>which can be considered assault or battery. If they keep it at that
>level, then I will have no problem. If they escalate, then they will
>be the one who will have to worry about things.


Dude, do yourself a favor, swallow your machismo if you are confronted by a
dog/owner in such a manner, and just walk away. You will NOT win against
dog that may very well have been trained to attack, you will, more likely
than not, come away very seriously injured and none the wiser (or richer,
for your sign already displays your antagonistic qualities).

>>While agreeing that owners should clean up I do have to wonder just how
the
>>Bicyclists would feel about an in your face campaign to throw speeders off
>>their bikes say - a nice stick in the wheels would work - or maybe just an
>>open baggie of well tossed dog poop....


Heck, living in NYC, it might not be so bad to see such a campaign waged
against lunatic messengers. I actually saw one purposely clothelined as he
sped through a red light and almost ran down the guy who toppled him. Yeah,
he was hurt pretty bad.

>You're taking it one level beyond that which I am taking it to. If you are
>taking my comment to Kieron about "how would he feel if...", that was
>a purely theoretical question. I have absolutely no intention of chucking
>poop at the folks who don't clean it up. I never suggested that I did.
What
>you might have interpreted as such was just a question asking if he was
>willing to be treated as he treats others.


Um... I have NEVER advocated throwing poop at anyone and resent your
implying that I have.

>I have no problem with someone asking a speeding cyclist to slow down.
>
>"In-Your-Face" is about being rude right back at them, not attacking them.


Well, seeing as some of the people you've described have done absolutely
nothing to provale your rudeness, it can only be seen as an harassing
assault and nowhere near an "eye-for-an-eye" situation.

Kieron Dodds

unread,
Apr 19, 1998, 3:00:00 AM4/19/98
to

R R M Tweek wrote in message ...

>Dave & MaryBeth <nospam....@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
>>>Then I have no problem with you.
>>
>>Good, then why go on? <G>
>
>Why go one with you, or in this group? I'm simply responding to all the
>points you brought up, and as far as the thread, I feel that there may
>be some of those irresponsible dog owners hanging out here.


Again with the psychic crap? You have absolutely no clue who does and who
doesn't pick up, never mind who may or may not even walk their dogs in
public parks. In any case, you're not at all likely to convert owners who
refuse to pick up after their dogs in this medium. Try doind it in person
and being *nice* about it. Still. you probably won't be very successful.

>BTW, Kieron... I know you aren't all that bad... I saw your post in
>alt.revenge which suggested that placing dog poop found on someone's
>driveway back on the driveway of the owner of the dog which deposited it.
>Just to place my position in perspective, I wouldn't do that... probably.
>If I had to pick it up I'd probably toss it out and then approach the
>neighbor about it... although if the neighbor didn't solve the problem
>after that and it continued... well, aybe I would resort to your
suggestion.


Must have been a cross-post from the rpd* hierarchy, I don't subscribe to
the group you've mentioned. If a dog goes in front of my house and I know
which dog it is, I will pick it up if it's left behind and I will deliver it
to the owner's home. Heck, just pick it up and throw it in the bag we leave
hanging on the gate for trash, for cripe's sakes.

>Take the above as an indication that when I ASKED you if you would feel
that
>it was within my right to throw the dog crap your dog left behind in your
>face, it was a completely theoretical question of expecting to be treated
>as you treat others, NOT an indication that I would take this approach.

Just when did I advocate attacking someone? Hmm?

> It
>is my impression that you are taking all my gripes personally, even though
>I feel confident that I am placing enough qualifications into my writing
>that shows it only applies to a specific subset of the entire group.


Damn straight I'm taking it personally because I have been continually
harassed by the likes of yourself for as long as I have owned dogs (which is
my whole life). At some point, any person in my position is going to get
fed up with this line of garbage and start responding in kind to the
assaults we are met with. You've given no indication of restricting your
comments to those who don't pick up, but to those who don't pick up in your
sight and when you want them to. Guess what bud? You ain't that special.
Hell, if you demanded I pick up what I had every intention of picking up,
I'ld probably just leave it there to spite you. And, yes, I HAVE done this,
usually when I'm CLEARLY waiting for the dog to finish, holding a bag in my
hand. I've also been assaulted on the way into a park and saved the pick up
to deliver to the assaulter on the way out as proof of my deed, dropping it
at their feet or next to them on a bench. Every other day for more than 20
years is WAY too much to put up with. If you don't like that, tough.

>Actually, I have read the group for about a month. The thing which makes
>my post different from any of those other posts complaining about the
>same thing, is that I am specifying the actions I am taking now to try
>to educate irresponsible dog owners that I am fed up with it.

Nope, you give no indication of restricting your comments to those who have
*left* messes behind. Perhaps you'ld do better to extend your comments to
ALL litterers, not restricting your spiel to dog owners. Personally, I'ld
rather have biodegradable waste laying about than plastic bags and plastic
and glass bottles and waxed cartons.

>Nothing in ther that I found which mentions the problem of a cyclist
getting
>splattered when not missing the pile... and if you think someone has to be
>blind not to miss it, now that the days are getting longer, it's only one
>day a week that I'll have to traverse the trail in darkness.


Well, that in itself is a great danger. I would think you'ld be
significantly more worried about broken glass. But, then again, people like
you rarely are that rational. Little League parents in a local park by me
are more worried that their kid is going to step or slide in poop that's
nowhere near the playing field than they are about the broken bottle at
first base. Go figure.

>Netiquette
>dictates that I chose the most appropriate newsgroup(s) for my post. Can
>you suggest a more appropriate newsgroup where I might find a higher figure
>of irresponsible dog owners than these two newsgroups?

One has to have a significant bit of interest in their dogs to be a regular
here, IMO. While that does not preclude irresponsibility, it does make it
highly unlikely. Perhaps there are newsgroups for Public Parks? Or maybe
AOL has a forum or two on the subject?

>[read the above CAREFULLY! alt.hiking might have one irresponsible dog
>owner and 30,000 innocents... rec.pets.dogs might have 10 irresponsible
>dog owners and 30,000 innocents. That's what I mean by fewer number of
>innocents.]


I don't think the subscribed numbers really come anywhere near what you've
suggested unless there are well over 29,000 lurkers here. Still, 10 in
30,000 is just as useless as 1 in 30,000.

>But you didn't say "ALL". That implies that there are some here which
>are irresponsible dog owners and those are the target of my post.


Because there's no way of knowing if ALL pick up after their dogs even if it
may very well be so. See, YOU'RE being given the benefit of the doubt even
'tho your post is still viewed as unwarranted. Be that as it may, I doubt
you'll have anyone e-mailing you thanking you for enlightening them.

>>And you, tho you did post that I conceded MOST people here pick up,
>>conveniently overlooked it unless it was to prove your point <G>
>
>I didn't overlook it. I have continually stated that my target of these
>posts are the irresponsible dog owners.


Yet you've chosen to target a group that is, for the vast majority if not
all, composed of responsible dog owners?

>Bless the regulars here... but I'm sure there are some lurkers that
>don't... and I'm not placing it beyond the realm of insanity that some of
>the trail users I pass daily might pop in here ready to bitch about some
>creep on a bike with a sign demanding they clean up their dog's poop.

Heck, if I saw some moron riding around on a bike with a sign reading "PICK
UP AFTER YOUR DOG!", I would assume that, since he has gone through the
trouble of making a sign, he has decided to come out and ride specifically
for the purpose of displaying to the world his avocation, much like the
sandwich-board end-of-the-world loonies. I'd probably laugh right in the
face of this self-appointed inspector of all manners regarding the fecal
matter of canines.

>Whatever the ratio of responsible dog owners VS irresponsible dog owners
>here, I don't see any newsgroup where I can find a larger number of the
>irresponsible type.


Wrong. You'ld probably have better luck on a parks or cycling NG where
there may be dog owners who are not as devoted to their dogs as those here
are.

>IIRC, what I said in my post was "MOST in my experience" WRT on the
specific
>trail I use. In my experince, while I have seen hundreds of dumps occuring
>over the last year, I do not recall seeing a single cleanup in action.

Well, they're obviously dumping something, duh. Whether you've seen them
pick it up or not is irrelevant. And you wonder why I use the term poop
police when you are OBVIOUSLY on the look out for pick-ups?

>If
>the time required for cleanup is 1/2 the time required for the dump, then
>the odds would mean that I should have seen 50 cleanups occuring.


And you wonder where my anal-retentive neat freak comment came from when
you're doing the actual math in an attempt to figure out the exact
percentage of pick-ups you *should* have seen? Babies come from somewhere
buddy, but you don't see them being made every day, now do you? Same thing
applies. While I am not embarrassed in the least to be "caught" picking up
after my dogs, some people are and go to great lengths to avoid being seen.
Your constant vigilance and scrutiny may, in fact, prevent such people from
doing what they otherwise would have.

>It only struck a nerve because I had already anticipated it, and was (I
>thought) carefull to state that I as a cyclist was not like some of the
>others, and that I was directing my post towards those dog owners who
>were irresponsible. IMO, Neither generalization should have occured.


No matter where your post was directed, your ignorance of dog ownership,
dogs, and all manners relating to them both was blatantly conveyed.

>And for Kieron, melow a bit about some of my responses to you. I'm a
>cynical and sarcastic bastard. ;-)


Duh, no kidding. You should take a bit of your own advice 'tho. It is,
after all, only poop. Good thing you don't have kids (I'm assuming).

Lori

unread,
Apr 19, 1998, 3:00:00 AM4/19/98
to

This might surprise you, but most of us on these groups *ARE* the
responsible owners. We are the ones who *DO* pick up after our dogs and
hate to see poop left on the paths just as much as you do...maybe more,
because we know we are the ones who will be blamed for it and who will
suffer for it when dogs are banned from the park and we have nowhere to
take our well-behaved, on-leash, cleaned-up-after dogs. Many of us even go
to considerable lengths to urge irresponsible dog owners to pick up,
including carrying extra bags and "offering" them to people whose dogs have
just dumped (while they pretend they didn't notice) since they must have
"forgotten" theirs.

So, you'll find most of us agree with you! I'd say start a "grass roots"
campaign in your park, carrying some ziplock bags and brown lunch bags, and
give one of each to people you see in the park with dogs. Talk to your
parks commission and see if they will put "cleanup stations" in the park.
Gallon plastic jugs can have a hole cut in the bottom and stick the top
(where the cap was) on a dowel rod in the ground and fill it with
baggies....and have a covered trash can for disposal. Maybe sometimes they
could have a park ranger there issuing warnings to violators.

Yep, we all hate it. But if it is going to change, we have to do it,
because the parks people and the police don't do it.

Lori
--
Ripley's Retrieve-It-Or-Not
http://www.geocities.com/~goldendog
Retrieve A Golden Of Minnesota
http://www.geocities.com/~goldendog/RAGOM.htm
^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^
"Dogs are not our whole life, but they make our lives whole." --Roger Caras


R R M Tweek

unread,
Apr 19, 1998, 3:00:00 AM4/19/98
to

Kieron Dodds <nospam...@nospam.email.msn.com> wrote:
>R R M Tweek wrote in message ...
>>
>>I hope not either, but my in-your-face stance is just words and nothing
>>which can be considered assault or battery. If they keep it at that
>>level, then I will have no problem. If they escalate, then they will
>>be the one who will have to worry about things.
>
>Dude, do yourself a favor, swallow your machismo if you are confronted by a
>dog/owner in such a manner, and just walk away. You will NOT win against
>dog that may very well have been trained to attack, you will, more likely
>than not, come away very seriously injured and none the wiser (or richer,
>for your sign already displays your antagonistic qualities).

You have a comprehension problem. The things I'm talking about that they
will have to worry about if they bring it into the physical realm, are
legal things.


>>You're taking it one level beyond that which I am taking it to. If you are
>>taking my comment to Kieron about "how would he feel if...", that was
>>a purely theoretical question. I have absolutely no intention of chucking
>>poop at the folks who don't clean it up. I never suggested that I did.
>What
>>you might have interpreted as such was just a question asking if he was
>>willing to be treated as he treats others.
>
>Um... I have NEVER advocated throwing poop at anyone and resent your
>implying that I have.

I didn't say you did advocate it. I'm talking about your insistance that
I should keep to myself about getting splattered with poop. Are you
willing to keep to yourself if you are splattered with it? If you
feel that you need not accept poop all over you by the hand of someone
else, why should I need accept it?


*plonk*

Kieron Dodds

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Apr 19, 1998, 3:00:00 AM4/19/98
to

R R M Tweek wrote in message ...
>Kieron Dodds <nospam...@nospam.email.msn.com> wrote:
>>R R M Tweek wrote in message ...
>>>
>>>I hope not either, but my in-your-face stance is just words and nothing
>>>which can be considered assault or battery. If they keep it at that
>>>level, then I will have no problem. If they escalate, then they will
>>>be the one who will have to worry about things.
>>
>>Dude, do yourself a favor, swallow your machismo if you are confronted by
a
>>dog/owner in such a manner, and just walk away. You will NOT win against
>>dog that may very well have been trained to attack, you will, more likely
>>than not, come away very seriously injured and none the wiser (or richer,
>>for your sign already displays your antagonistic qualities).
>
>You have a comprehension problem. The things I'm talking about that they
>will have to worry about if they bring it into the physical realm, are
>legal things.


Wise enough. Still, if there IS a person who seems as if they WILL set
their dog on you, you WILL be better off taking your campaign elsewhere. A
poorly trained attack dog CAN do a lot of serious damage. No amount of
legal retribution (civil or criminal) is worth getting mauled over.

>>>You're taking it one level beyond that which I am taking it to. If you
are
>>>taking my comment to Kieron about "how would he feel if...", that was
>>>a purely theoretical question. I have absolutely no intention of
chucking
>>>poop at the folks who don't clean it up. I never suggested that I did.
>>What
>>>you might have interpreted as such was just a question asking if he was
>>>willing to be treated as he treats others.
>>
>>Um... I have NEVER advocated throwing poop at anyone and resent your
>>implying that I have.
>
>I didn't say you did advocate it. I'm talking about your insistance that
>I should keep to myself about getting splattered with poop.

As far as I have read, no one is throwing it at you. Am I incorrect? So,
what actually happens? You ride through it and it splatters up your back?
Is that now a reason to conduct a harassment campaign against ALL dog owners
you see who's dogs may LOOK as if they're squatting? You want to do it the
right way? Talk to them civilly, kindly. Stop and ask them how they are,
how their dog is. Ask them if they wouldn't mind letting you know if they
pick up after their dogs or not, cuz you're just curious. If you suspect
(or KNOW because you've SEEN them leave multiple piles [sometimes a dog goes
three times and they're only carrying one extra, sometimes it may be very
liquid and impossible to pick up completely]) that they're lying, ask them
what they use. No matter what they say, tell them you have extra bags at
home (shopping or whatever, which you probably do, right?) and ask them if
they would like them since you'ld rather see them put to use than thrown out
(most responsible dog owners will GLADLY accept bag donations, especially if
they have multiple and/or large dogs). Thank them for stopping to talk to
you no matter what the results. If you see them at it again, report them to
whatever local authority handles such matters.

> Are you
>willing to keep to yourself if you are splattered with it?

You really don't know what it's like for responsible dog owners. Of course
I've stepped in it and trailed it around from other dogs, gotten it on my
hands while picking it up due to holes in bags, etc. I do what I've
detailed above. Failing that, I make a delivery to their doorstep IF I
*KNOW* it's theirs. Failing that, I call the parks dept. and report the
owner.

> If you
>feel that you need not accept poop all over you by the hand of someone
>else, why should I need accept it?


You shouldn't, but neither should you harass innocent people.

Dave & MaryBeth

unread,
Apr 19, 1998, 3:00:00 AM4/19/98
to

R R M Tweek wrote in message ...

>BTW, about a month ago I did a trial balloon of this same topic in the


>cycling newsgroup... and added the mostly bogus newsgroup rec.pets.dogs
>to see what sort of outrage I'd get from the cyclists for what I planned
>to do. Sees that the only one who complained was one who INSISTED that
>rec.pets.dogs was a valid newsgroup... and insisted that it was my duty
>to pick up the crap off the trail... as well as to feed milkbones or steaks
>to dogs I didn't want chasing me. (He was reading it in the cycling
>newsgroup and not the bogus group)

Now, here I disagree with this person. It is not your duty to clean up after
other's dogs....nor feed them treats. ( I don't let my dogs take treats from
strangers)

<gentle snips for space>

>Actually, I have read the group for about a month. The thing which makes
>my post different from any of those other posts complaining about the
>same thing, is that I am specifying the actions I am taking now to try
>to educate irresponsible dog owners that I am fed up with it. And yes,
>I know much about DeJaNews. I use it all the time and have used it on
>your newsgroup. Currently, (not counting this thread) "bicycle poop" shows
>one post... not related. "bike poop" has ten, although they don't talk
>about what I talk about... the one which comes closest is one discussing
>the springer where the poster mentions that she has to stop when her dog
>poops... nothing about cleaning it up though. "poop pick" nets 419 posts,
>but ost of those are in rec.pets.dogs.behavior and deal with dogs eating
>their own poop. There is at least one decent sized thread in there (dog
>pollution) which some folks comment upon cleaning up other dog's messes
>in order to prevent people like me from going off the wall. ;-)


Well not all the posts regarding this used the word 'poop' tho it is my
personal favorite <G>


>I can't find rec.pets.dogs.owners.irresponsible or similar. As far as I
>can tell, these two groups are the most appropriate for finding the largest
>number of irresponsible dog owners with the fewest number of innocents.
>[read the above CAREFULLY! alt.hiking might have one irresponsible dog
>owner and 30,000 innocents... rec.pets.dogs might have 10 irresponsible
>dog owners and 30,000 innocents. That's what I mean by fewer number of
>innocents.]


Okay I can see your point, but the only reason I said 'most' was because I
am sure those that don't pick up after their dogs are NOT going to admit it
<G>.

>>>And there you concede with the use of the word "MOST".
>>
>>And your point here? I did say MOST.....as you will find out by the many
>>replies you will receive <G>
>
>But you didn't say "ALL". That implies that there are some here which
>are irresponsible dog owners and those are the target of my post.

>And


>as far as your archived posts on the same topic... someone who joins the
>newsgroup to find out about soething else, and if they happen to be an
>irresponsible dog owner, might just see this thread and read it (even
>more so now with all the followups I am getting ;-) )


Very true, and I hope they DO get the point !

>>(Please DO note I said MOST<G>) SO my point was you're coming
>>in here complaining about dog owners in general not following the curb
laws.

>IIRC, what I said in my post was "MOST in my experience" WRT on the
specific
>trail I use. In my experince, while I have seen hundreds of dumps occuring
>over the last year, I do not recall seeing a single cleanup in action. If
>the time required for cleanup is 1/2 the time required for the dump, then
>the odds would mean that I should have seen 50 cleanups occuring.

Hehehe you should move to Philly (just kidding here, as I know I have left
my heart in Sonoma County :)
but here they have a law penalizing non-picker-uppers $300 a pop.

>
>I can't speak from experience about folks on other trails around the
>world, but on this specific 6 mile segment of the Lafayette-Moraga
>Regional Trail, that *is* my observed experience. [It is in these same
>communities where pedestrians must clear crosswalks for the BMW's, Volvo's
>and Mercedes which don't even slow down. I'm not against believing that
>both are an attitude unique to this geographic location.)

Again check out my new city, you can't cross the street to the park without
people making a left across our crosswalk without coming close to gettin run
over.

>IMO, Neither generalization should have occured.


True, but that was my first post of the am, not having more than a sip or
two of coffee yet, and it brought back a major gripe I have harbored. Truce
? <G>

> On the other hand, there was
>a beautiful sleek black dog (of some sort) who came out of a yard and
>started racing me on a city street. At first I thought it was another
>attempted attack but I quickly realized that the dog wanted to run...
>unfortunately this wasn't the place. Within five seconds I slowed down
>and commanded the dog to "go home". He wandered around the front of me
>and started heading along the curb back from where he came. As I started
>out again and was about 100 ft further along, I heard some tires squeel
>and a thud. I turned around in time to see poor dog jump up from in
>front of the car and head back onto his property. This one really made
>me feel sad. Although I had eye to eye contact with this dog for less
>than five seconds, I really felt I knew him... better than any other dog
>I've known. [Sorry, Don't know what this has to do with the point I'm
>trying to make... guess I just needed to vent some sadness.]


I had the same thing happen last nite, a friend's lab (she has two, one
never allowed off-leash) came running across the street toward me and my
dogs on our way over there. I didn't see the light change (thank God it did)
and screamed "NOOOOOOO' at the top of my lungs. The car had stopped for the
light luckily and I ran the rest of the way across to the park so as to have
the errant dog follow me back to his owner.

>
>Well, It looks like somehow, despite my precautions, I got off on the
>wrong foot with this group. I wouldn't say it's not partially my
>fault... I'll put up with sh** for so long, but when I blow, look out.
>Hopefully I've cleared up just exactly who I am targeting with my post,
>and the reason why I chose this group.

I think you have....and just realize that the regular posters here are avid
dog lovers, considering them to be family, not just pets. And when it comes
to being responsible owners we are a bit guarded as we have had many trolls
visit. Sorry if I seemed to jump on you, and I'll try to refrain from
posting in angst until I finish my first cup of coffee <G>

MaryBeth

Tibbi Scott

unread,
Apr 20, 1998, 3:00:00 AM4/20/98
to

According to Reverend Tweek <tw...@netcom-NO.SPAM-com>:

>First off, this is not an attempt to bait a flame war... if I wanted
>that, I would have added alt.tasteless to the newsgroup line.

Wow. You didn't cross-post to an troll-baiting newsgroups and "we"
should be thankful? Sorry... you don't win any points for that.

>Now then, let me introduce myself. I am a bicycle commuter who uses one
>of the regional multi-use trails in my area for six of the thirty miles
>of my daily commute. Besides cyclists, other users of these shared trails
>include joggers, skaters, walkers... and yes, dog walkers.

And I am personally consider people like you to be the menace. I don't
care to count the number of times I've be rushed by inconsiderate bikers
who seem to think that the multi-purpose paths are primarily theirs just
becuase they can go faster.

I don't care to count the number of times I've almost had my dog run over
by people like you who couldn't care less that walking people are on the
paths with their animals.

So, don't complain here, until you first get all the bikers to start being
considerate. Trust me, a little dog poop is nothing compared to the people
on the bikes.


--
Tibbi Scott (Standard Disclaimer: my views are my own.)

Shannon Larkin

unread,
Apr 21, 1998, 3:00:00 AM4/21/98
to

Reverend Tweek wrote:

[a diatribe about scooping poop]

You're preaching to the choir, bud. We ARE responsible dog owners.

-Shannon and Guinness
-------------------------------------------------------------------
To respond, please remove the anti-spam from my address. Thank you.

sionnach

unread,
Apr 21, 1998, 3:00:00 AM4/21/98
to

Just a point of note about the person that the "Reverend" *assumed* was
not going to pick up- you stated that you based your assumption on the fact
that she was NOT WATCHING? You don't know much about dogs, do you? Some
dogs- mine included- do *not* like to be watched! They are vulnerable while
squatting, and being watched makes them uneasy. My dog will go as far off
the path or into the bushes as he can- and if I approach him, will acutually
*stop* pooping and move.
Furthermore, some dogs (again, mine included) are distracted by the sound
of plastic crinkling (the sound can mean "food" <g>). So many people- myself
included- wait *until the dog is done* and THEN take the bag out. In the
situation you have now described three or four times, there is NOTHING that
indicates that this woman was not intending to pick up. You acted
prematurely and rudely. It would have been far more considerate- and
INFINITELY more effective- if you had paused and asked in an offhand, civil
and non-confrontational manner if she needed a bag. (In other words, act as
if you assume that *of course* she was planning to pick up.)
If she *were* planning to pick up, she would have said that she had a bag,
and wouldn't mind being asked. If she were reponsible but had merely
forgotten a bag (this happens), most likely she would have been grateful for
the offer, and would have been left with a positive impression of bikers as
well. If she were irresponsible and/or ignorant, you would have had a chance
to NICELY make her aware that it's better for everyone concerned- especially
dog owners- if she would pick up. People are FAR more likely to cooperate
if they understand *why*. But all you did was antagonise her.
Counterproductive, pal!
Not to mention obnoxious and immature.

BTW I am speaking from direct experience- I run my dog daily at an off-lead
park, and this is the technique that the "regulars" use to encourage newbies
and lazies to pick up. And oh yeah- I and all of my friends not only pick up
after others on a daily basis, but organise a bi-monthly "Turd Fiesta" in
which we actually clean up THE ENTIRE PARK- which is about 50 acres.

Sarah (Alpha Bitch and Mamcat)
Brenin, NAC, NJC (formerly the Puppy From Hell)
Gwydion, Bad Catling Extrordinaire

Andrea Stone

unread,
Apr 24, 1998, 3:00:00 AM4/24/98
to

While I think your general complaint/request is valid - that dog owners
should pick up after their dogs - your attitude is anti-constructive. I am
one of the few people who even bothers to walk their dogs, as opposed to
turning them loose in my neighborhood, much less picking up after them.

I am continually harassed by passers by about picking up after my dogs. I
DO pick up, they just aren't seeing me do it. Maybe they would like to stop
and inspect my ability to do so. My dogs don't like me to watch them go,
weird but true. Maybe the "poop police" think I don't look like I'm going
to do it, but... well they obviously are making assumptions.

Maybe I am a scapegoat for the dog-poop-frustrated people in my
neighborhood, but that just makes me WANT to leave the poop. At least it
would validate their complaints.

It's not as though loose dogs don't dump in my yard too. I also feel that
public places do not have adequate facilities for clean up. I'm sorry, but
a baggie station ever 2 miles on a 6 mile trail is not near enough. And did
you say a trash can every 3,000 feet? Not very inductive to picking up. I
do it anyway, but if you want to encourage others to as well, it needs to
be made easy.

You catch more flies with honey than vinegar, you know.
--
-Andrea Stone
Saorsa Basenjis

Cathy Burnett

unread,
Apr 27, 1998, 3:00:00 AM4/27/98
to

Kieron Dodds wrote:
>
> Good grief, just what this world needs, Poop Police.
>

Speaking of poop police :) there are laws requiring dog owners to clean
up after their pets and I do believe that MOST dog owners do just that
(including myself). This is a typical case where the few BAD PEOPLE
who don't clean up after their pets give the rest of us a bad name.

However...you might get a better response and support from the
responsible dog owners if you made sure you only directed your smart alec
comments on the trail towards the irresponsible owners. You have no
idea, I assume, if the lady you commented to while her dog was stooping
was going to clean up after her pet. If you had said that to me without
knowing that, I woulda told you to f**k off. What can I say, knee jerk
reaction..just like yours.

ALL dog owners are not irresponsible and the responsible ones hate the
irresponsible ones just as much as you do.


blac...@dog-play.com

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Apr 27, 1998, 3:00:00 AM4/27/98
to

In rec.pets.dogs.activities Cathy Burnett <bur...@oasys.dt.navy.mil> wrote:

: Kieron Dodds wrote:
:>
:> Good grief, just what this world needs, Poop Police.
:>

: Speaking of poop police :) there are laws requiring dog owners to clean
: up after their pets and I do believe that MOST dog owners do just that
: (including myself). This is a typical case where the few BAD PEOPLE

Do you really believe most people clean up? I don't. My observation is
most people do not clean up. Many people take a look around to see who is
observing and if they feel unobserved they leave it. I'll bet it makes a
big difference according to the community and the setting. I'd bet that
voluntary compliance is a lot higher in some places than in others.

: who don't clean up after their pets give the rest of us a bad name.


Diane Blackman
di...@dog-play.com http://www.dog-play.com/
- - - - - - - -
Training is a game that you will play with our dog as long as he lives.
"Smart Trainers -- Brilliant Dogs" by Janet Lewis


April Quist

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Apr 27, 1998, 3:00:00 AM4/27/98
to

Cathy Burnett (bur...@oasys.dt.navy.mil) wrote:
: Speaking of poop police :) there are laws requiring dog owners to clean
: up after their pets and I do believe that MOST dog owners do just that
: (including myself). This is a typical case where the few BAD PEOPLE
: who don't clean up after their pets give the rest of us a bad name.

Well, while I believe more and more people are *starting* to clean up
after their dogs, I think the majority still don't - at least, in most of
the areas I've observed.

April with Levi and Caper, the Border Collie Hurricanes
aqu...@netcom.com


Saxon Brown

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Apr 29, 1998, 3:00:00 AM4/29/98
to

blac...@dog-play.com wrote:

> Do you really believe most people clean up? I don't. My observation is
> most people do not clean up. Many people take a look around to see who is
> observing and if they feel unobserved they leave it. I'll bet it makes a
> big difference according to the community and the setting. I'd bet that
> voluntary compliance is a lot higher in some places than in others.

The other day I was sitting at my back window- my window overlooks the
river through town, and there is a river trail on the other side- A
woman and her two dogs approach, one dog poops, she makes this big
production of gettin out the bag, etc., while there is a car coming
around the corner (speed limit: 15mph). Car passes, the bag goes back
in the pocket, and on she goes, poop still there.

I agree with Diane that most people do NOT clean up, at least around
here- there are poop bag dispensers, and trash cans, and LOTS of poop on
the ground.

Saxon

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