Raw dog and cat food.
John
I have seen numerous naturopathic writings on the benefits
or raw beef for dogs and cats. The argument goes that raw beef
has enzymes necessary for health that are destroyed in the
rendering process. I can believe that rendered meat is devoid
of much nutritional value. This, I assume, is why vitamins
and minerals are added to the food. Apparantly these *enzymes*
cannot be replaced. After having been advised by vets to feed
my animals foods with ethoxyquin and BHT, and receiving alot of
conflicting advice from Pet Store employees as to the merits of
various ingredients, I am tempted to try fresh. These critters
have lived for many thousands of years on it (tell me you haven't
heard that one before!)
Comments?
Bond
Well yes they have existed on whatever they could get their paws
on....but not for as long.
David A Thomas
> ...I am tempted to try fresh. These critters
> heard that one before!)
On raw beef? For thousands of years? No, I haven't heard that
one before.
If we're talking about cats, there's a significant difference
between live prey and raw meat that you get at the store.
The rate of bacterial contamination in the meat supply in
the US is too high for me to consider giving our cats raw
meat any more.
--
David Thomas (da...@micro.ti.com)
Texas Instruments, Houston (713)-274-2347
John
John
Bond wrote:
>
> John wrote:
> >
> > I have seen numerous naturopathic writings on the benefits
> > has enzymes necessary for health that are destroyed in the
> > rendering process. I can believe that rendered meat is devoid
> > of much nutritional value. This, I assume, is why vitamins
> > and minerals are added to the food. Apparantly these *enzymes*
> > cannot be replaced. After having been advised by vets to feed
> > my animals foods with ethoxyquin and BHT, and receiving alot of
> > conflicting advice from Pet Store employees as to the merits of
> > have lived for many thousands of years on it (tell me you haven't
> > heard that one before!)
> >
>
> Well yes they have existed on whatever they could get their paws
> on....but not for as long.
*One last item.Take a look at this "food" for thought from a vet.*:
Sharon Talbert
Raw dog is my cat's favorite catfood! Yummy!
(sorry; couldn't resist)
On Wed, 26 Mar 1997, John wrote:
> http://users.aol.com/carepet/food.htm
>
>
John
A thoughtful person's observations to add to the dialogue.
Eric Baizer
Raw meat often contains parasites which are not good for dogs. Much
of the so-called "meat" in commercial dog foods, some of which
contain ground up hooves, beaks, and "by-products" of questionable
nutritional value, are not good for dogs, either.
Kate Ashley
David A Thomas wrote:> > or raw beef for dogs and cats. ...
> > ...I am tempted to try fresh. These critters
> > have lived for many thousands of years on it (tell me you haven't
> > heard that one before!)
>
> one before.
>
> If we're talking about cats, there's a significant difference
> between live prey and raw meat that you get at the store.
> The rate of bacterial contamination in the meat supply in
> the US is too high for me to consider giving our cats raw
> meat any more.
> --
> David Thomas (da...@micro.ti.com)
> Texas Instruments, Houston (713)-274-2347
Maybe you would be interested in taking a look at a product called Nutri
Biotic that maybe used as a wash for raw meat, fruits and vegies. It
can be found at a health food store. Kate
--
http://www.users.interport.net/~kamiscot/shamrock.html
Tracy Bell
We have always given our cats a variety of canned, dry and fresh food.
These days we use mince as the fresh meat (its easier than cutting up
steak!) they love it and it is definitely the preferred food choice. Make
sure to keep up the canned food though as they can have problems with
constipation in later life (this happed with one of my cats).
John <p...@axionet.com> wrote in article <3337FF...@axionet.com>...
> I have seen numerous naturopathic writings on the benefits
> or raw beef for dogs and cats. The argument goes that raw beef
> has enzymes necessary for health that are destroyed in the
> rendering process. I can believe that rendered meat is devoid
> of much nutritional value. This, I assume, is why vitamins
> and minerals are added to the food. Apparantly these *enzymes*
> cannot be replaced. After having been advised by vets to feed
> my animals foods with ethoxyquin and BHT, and receiving alot of
> conflicting advice from Pet Store employees as to the merits of
> various ingredients, I am tempted to try fresh. These critters
> have lived for many thousands of years on it (tell me you haven't
> heard that one before!)
>
> Comments?
>
Mary Shafer
Enzymes are digested just like any other protein. Actually, the HCl
in stomach acid denatures, or breaks down, the molecules. The enzymes
end up being resolved into the basic amino acids before they pass
through the intestinal wall, so it doesn't matter whether you feed
enzymes denatured by heat (cooking) or fresh enzymes. What makes it
into the blood will be basic amino acids in any case.
For a more esthetic example of protein denaturization by acids, try
ceviche, which is fish "cooked" by marination in lemon juice. It's
very tasty and the texture is very much that of just-cooked fish. The
fish looks cooked as well, since the denaturization turns the
translucent proteins opaque.
--
Mary Shafer DoD #0362 KotFR sha...@ursa-major.spdcc.com
URL http://www.dfrc.nasa.gov/People/Shafer/mary.html
Some days it don't come easy/And some days it don't come hard
Some days it don't come at all/And these are the days that never end....
Jason
>
>Maybe you would be interested in taking a look at a product called Nutri
>Biotic that maybe used as a wash for raw meat, fruits and vegies. It
>can be found at a health food store. Kate
Kate,
What does "Nutri Biotic" do to prevent Taneia saginata
(Cysticercosis), Echinococcus, and Trichinella spiralis?
Are you saying it is safe to eat raw meat when you use this
product? Can I get that in writing?
Jason
Lisa Baird
> > ...I am tempted to try fresh. These critters
> > have lived for many thousands of years on it (tell me you haven't
> > heard that one before!)
There are numerous books out there on the subject, and many of us
feeding our pets in this way currently. Books: Pat McKay _Reigning Cats
and Dogs_, Juliette Barclai-Levy _The Complete Herbal Handbook for Dogs
and Cats_ (or something close!), _Dr. Pitcairn's Natural Health for Cats
and Dogs_, and another by Wendy Volhard, the title escapes me at the
moment. There is also a mailing list that discusses doggie diets, and
many on there feed natural raw. To subscribe, Send an e-mail to:
majo...@gcstation.net
with one of the following commands in the message area:
subscribe k9-cuisine YOUR E-MAIL ADDRESS HERE
or
subscribe k9-cuisine-digest YOUR E-MAIL ADDRESS HERE
Its not for everyone, and I would strongly suggest you do a lot of
reading before trying it, but my girls are doing great, and my male
would be dead without it. I firmly believe that. He has IBD, and
commercial diets were NOT ebing tolerated by his sytem. He is the FIRST
of his breed to be KNOWN to live more than 3 mos. past a diagnosis of
IBD. The second is now also doing well, on a natural diet.
Is it easy? Not as much as opening a bag of kibble, but once you get a
routine, not awful. Is it expensive? More so than a bag of dog chow, not
much more than the "premium" commercial diets. Can MOST dogs do just
fine for life on a HIGH QUALITY, "commerical" food? Sure, and do. Some
cannot though, and some that do "ok" on commercial do better on natural.
A choice that must be made to suit your life and your pets.
--
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Lisa Baird Want to learn more about Portuguese Water Dogs,
Haleakala PWD's Dog Agility, or just dogs, in general? Visit my
Dublin, Oh. Home Page and see the Haleakala PWD's, and visit
lba...@infinet.com many dog related web sites from my links!
http://www.infinet.com/~lbaird
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Dr. Adriana Martinez-Lopez
Why would you want to feed raw meet? It cost almost as much as canned
food.
What everyone is overlooking is that when a lion kills a zebra or
wildebeest he doesn't only eat the lean meat, he eats everything.
Animals need viceral matter as well as other organs in their diet. This
is fulfilled in commercial foods by adding the by products and
fortifying with other vitamins and minerals.
Don't complicate life more than it already is......just buy the prepared
stuff.
Gon
Lisa Baird
"Cost" is not the prmiary concern for many of us when feeing our pets. I
feed a raw diet to my dogs for a variety of reasons. As I stated
earlier, its is really not more expensive than feeding a premium kibble,
and from my readings, healthier. In the case of our IBD dog, lifesaving.
Lisa Baird
Dr. Adriana Martinez-Lopez wrote:
>
> Why would you want to feed raw meet? It cost almost as much as canned
> food.
> What everyone is overlooking is that when a lion kills a zebra or
> wildebeest he doesn't only eat the lean meat, he eats everything.
> Animals need viceral matter as well as other organs in their diet. This
> is fulfilled in commercial foods by adding the by products and
> fortifying with other vitamins and minerals.
> Don't complicate life more than it already is......just buy the prepared
> stuff.
>
> Gon
Forgot to add, feeding meat alone is NOT the answer, you are correct. We
also feed cooked grains, and well grated veggies. I wold rather feed my
dogs the real thing, instead of having a company destroy all the enzymes
by cooking and processing, then adding them back in.
All of us...
>In article <333A20...@ix.netcom.com>, Sham...@ix.netcom.com wrote:
>
>>
>>Maybe you would be interested in taking a look at a product called Nutri
>>Biotic that maybe used as a wash for raw meat, fruits and vegies. It
>>can be found at a health food store. Kate
>
>
I know the USA has many different views then Australia but the vets I
work for and most other vets I have worked for and heard about all
reccommend a high quality commercial dog food OR a quality natural
diet thats not deficient in anything and this always includes both raw
meat and raw bones. Ive been a vet nurse for about 8 years and have
never seen a food poisoning case from a dog eating raw human grade
meat.
Kim
sandi clausen
I don't know many animal nutritonist. If your going to supplement your
dogs meals you better know exactly what ratio of grain to meat etc , or you
could do your dog more harm than good
Lisa Baird <lba...@mail.infinet.com> wrote in article
<3341E4...@mail.infinet.com>...
All of us...
John
sandi clausen wrote:
> > >
> > Dr. Adriana Martinez-Lopez wrote:
> > >
> > > Why would you want to feed raw meet? It cost almost as much as canned
> > > food.
* A better question might be, why would you want to feed canned food? It costs
almost as much as raw meat.*
What everyone is overlooking is that when a lion kills a zebra or
wildebeest he doesn't only eat the lean meat, he eats everything.
Animals need viceral matter as well as other organs in their diet.
*Why not feed a variety of raw meats, including some organ meats?*
This is fulfilled in commercial foods by adding the by products and
>fortifying with other vitamins and minerals.
*see what can be added: http://www.earthisland.org/ei/journal/sum96-31.html
Don't complicate life more than it
already is......just buy the prepared stuff.
*I suspect feeding my animals too much of the "prepared stuff" has already
complicated my life, in terms of recurrent disease, and health problems.*
John
Chip Douglas
I feed my animals people food. They get hamburgers, hotdogs, chicken,
etc. They also get one or two cans a day of cycle puppy food. They
love pizza too. The only problem with raw food is that they can get
sick from it. I cook the dogs food for them.
Chip
Debbie Tripp
John wrote:
>
>
> Don't complicate life more than it
> already is......just buy the prepared stuff.
>
> *I suspect feeding my animals too much of the "prepared stuff" has already
> complicated my life, in terms of recurrent disease, and health problems.*
>
> John
Right on, John!!!! Feeding a processed food day in, day out is causing
disease in our beloved pets!! They need a variety of fresh, raw foods
and for health and vitality. Since I've switched my crew to a raw diet,
I've not looked back. Their teeth are immaculate, their coats gleam, and
their energy is wonderful.
--
Debbie Tripp - Saskatoon, SK. Home of Kimberlite Bernese
Hunka Hunka Berner Love
Debbie Tripp
Chip writes:
>
> I feed my animals people food. They get hamburgers, hotdogs, chicken,
> etc. They also get one or two cans a day of cycle puppy food. They
> love pizza too. The only problem with raw food is that they can get
> sick from it. I cook the dogs food for them.
>
> Chip
Chip,
Dogs do not have guts like humans and do not require their
meats, vegetables,and fruits to be cooked. The only thing you
should cook is the grains. Raw meaty bones are paramount to good health
as it helps keep the teeth clean and free of tartar and the dogs utilise
the calicium in the raw bones. There are many good books out there on
the subject of feeding your animals a raw diet. Do web search on "raw
meaty bones".
Books to look for are:
"Give That Dog a Bone" by Ian Billinghurst, DVM
"Dr. Pitcairns Complete Guide to Natural Healt for Dogs and Cats", By Dr.
Pitcarin, DVM
"The Natural Remedy Book for Dogs and Cats" by Diane Stein
Wendy Volhard also has a book out for feeding dogs and cats
Levy has guides out for feeding dogs and cats naturally.
John
I don't want to keep pushing this button too much, but I have had the feeling
that I am being "had" by pet food manufacturers, and ,unintentionally, by
ill informed pet store employees, and well meaning vets. (The vets I know, I
hold in high regard). This probably started when I noticed that Purina began
using vitamin E as a fat preservative in their pet foods. I contacted
Purina's head office in Toronto Canada through their 1-800 line. My question
was *simply*, "what were you using to preserve fats with prior to vitamin E?",
as no stabilizer ingredients were previously listed. Well, you'd have thought that
I was asking the Pentagon for military secrets. I was asked who I am, why did I
want to know, who do I represent etc. I was advised to put my question in writing
to Karen Kurasawa ( I believe was her name). In response, I got a wonderful
corporate letter advising me that fat will go rancid if not stabilized, that
consumer research has shown that vitamin E is a preferred stabilizer, and that
Purina was one of the first "commercial" brands to use it. I phoned Ms. Kurasawa
to again ask, "What was previously used"? She advised me that BHT was used. I asked her
why it was never listed on the ingredients? She told me that * there are no laws in
Canada that require pet food ingredients be listed*. Apparantly, it is totally up to
the manufacturers what they choose to include and how they choose to word it. There are
no regulations in Canada, according to Purina. If someone has knowledge of U.S. regulations,
please post and inform. The Canadian market has a lot of U.S pet food products. In the meantime,
here is more useful information for informed consumers:
OBVC
In article <3341c169....@news.magna.com.au>, Day...@magna.com.au
says...
>I know the USA has many different views then Australia but the vets I
>work for and most other vets I have worked for and heard about all
>reccommend a high quality commercial dog food OR a quality natural
>diet thats not deficient in anything and this always includes both raw
>meat and raw bones. Ive been a vet nurse for about 8 years and have
>never seen a food poisoning case from a dog eating raw human grade
>meat.
>Kim
Kim,
You post alot of information about Australia, and the cultural
differences are interesting. Could you explain the training involved in
becoming a veterinary technician in Australia, and give us insite into
the training of veterinarians in Australia if you know?
I have heard that the veterinary medical program (according to a
veterinary student I met from there) consists of 3 years of college
level training. There were no undergraduate requirments for entry, and
many veterinary student enter the veterinary college right out of high
school. Is this true? I know that many of my classmates felt that our 4
years of veterinary school after 4 years of undergraduate college
coursework left us yearning for more formal training due to the enormous
growth of knowledge in the past 10 years in veterinary medicine.
Thanks in advance for insite into Australian veterinary medicine.
Jason Drake, DVM
--
Ocean Beach Veterinary Hospital
http://www.cport.com/~obvc/
OB...@aol.com
|
PLEASE NOTE: In the absence of a traditional veterinarian-client-patient
relationship, this information should be taken as a friendly opinion,
not
as an official clinical recommendation.
OBVC
In article <334534...@axionet.com>, p...@axionet.com says...
In the US, pet food manufacturors must list the ingredients they put in
the food. I believe that preservatives added to, say, lamb meal, for
example, by the supplier before it reaches the pet food manufacturor are
not required to be on the ingredient list. (That may or may not be
accurate, but for some reason I think I was told that in a nutrition
course.) Maybe someone else can confirm or deny that.
Lisa Baird
Debbie Tripp wrote:
>
> Books to look for are:
> "Give That Dog a Bone" by Ian Billinghurst, DVM
> "Dr. Pitcairns Complete Guide to Natural Healt for Dogs and Cats", By Dr.
> Pitcarin, DVM
> "The Natural Remedy Book for Dogs and Cats" by Diane Stein
> Wendy Volhard also has a book out for feeding dogs and cats
> Levy has guides out for feeding dogs and cats naturally.
I would add Pat McKay's book, _Reigning Cats and Dogs_. Find an old copy
though! SHe has given up grains in recent editions!
Sheri Lampright
I think people are overlooking the detrimental effects in feeding
canines raw meat. Canines are omnivores, and cannot survive solely on
raw meat. Raw meat has an inverse calcium:phosphorus ratio and because
of this, it can result in nutritional secondary hyperparathyroidism
and/or other bone/growth disorders. Also, why would you feed your dog
canned food? Your paying mainly for the water in the can which
comprises of 70 percent water. Dry, semi-dry, and moist dog foods found
in pet stores are specifically balanced for your dog's needs, feed them
- not raw meat!
Sheri Lampright
Colorado State University
dogsnus
in check a lot more than canned food.
Terri
Lisa Baird
Sheri Lampright wrote:
>
> I think people are overlooking the detrimental effects in feeding
> canines raw meat. Canines are omnivores, and cannot survive solely on
I don't think anyone has advocated (at least not in notes I've seen) a
diet of JUST raw meat. If you've read any of my notes, I've pointed out
that I also feed grains and veggies, and I ALWAYS tell people looking
into this to read up on the subject.
> raw meat. Raw meat has an inverse calcium:phosphorus ratio and because
Correct, which is why I supplement with bonemeal.
> and/or other bone/growth disorders. Also, why would you feed your dog
> canned food? Your paying mainly for the water in the can which
I wouldn't think of feeding canned food. Never did, not even when we did
commercial feeds.
> comprises of 70 percent water. Dry, semi-dry, and moist dog foods found
> in pet stores are specifically balanced for your dog's needs, feed them
> - not raw meat!
They were killing my dog. Plain and simple. He is the FIRST Portuguese
Water Dog known to have lived more than 3 mos. passed the diagnosis of
IBD. In the genreal canine population the death rate among IBD dogs is
about 15%. In PWD's it was 100%! MOST PWD's do not tolerate commercial
food well. It mainfests in skin and coat problems. Some, like my boy,
its worse. When you cook meats, you take out the healthful enzymes that
aid digestion. The canine intestinal tract is shorter than ours, they
are not meant to eat the same types of foods. Again, there are MANY good
books on the cubject thathave beenlisted in this thread. I suggest any
dog owner read them, then make the choice that best suits you and your
pet. The IBD boy does not live with me, but with a friend of mine.
However, I chose to put my girls on the same healthy, raw diet. They are
doing great!
John
Sheri Lampright wrote:
>
> I think people are overlooking the detrimental effects in feeding
> canines raw meat. Canines are omnivores, and cannot survive solely on
> canned food? Your paying mainly for the water in the can which
> in pet stores are specifically balanced for your dog's needs, feed them
> - not raw meat!
>
> Colorado State University
Well, first I must tell you that the votes are in on this one, and there is a
*huge* number of people feeding raw. You think people are overlooking the detrimental
effects in feeding canines raw meat? Are you going to deny that canines have lived
on raw meat for many thousands of years? Canines are *carnivores* and to say otherwise,
I think, smacks of revisionism. Raw meat alone requires calcium supplementation, so you
feed raw, meaty bones (that canines have devoured for those thousands of years ) also.
Of course you can feed some vegetable, tofu or other nutritious foods along with the meat.
The posting you responded to was a little confusing. Some of the original remarks did
not show up in italics. I have stopped feeding my dog canned food. I can't believe you
would recommend semi dry/moist foods. Until VERY recently the ingredient that kept it
moist was propylene glycol.
I'll tell you what.... you tell me when you are prepared to go on a *daily* diet of
BHA, BHT, Ethoxyquin, and/or propylene glycol and I'll listen more attentatively.
I won't eat it. My pets don't get it.
Re...@ms1.hinet.net
In article <334823...@cyberhighway.net>
dogsnus <Te...@cyberhighway.net> wrote:
> Sheri Lampright wrote:
>>
>> I think people are overlooking the detrimental effects in feeding
>> canines raw meat. Canines are omnivores, and cannot survive solely on
>> raw meat. Raw meat has an inverse calcium:phosphorus ratio and because
>> of this, it can result in nutritional secondary hyperparathyroidism
>> and/or other bone/growth disorders. Also, why would you feed your dog
>> canned food? Your paying mainly for the water in the can which
>> comprises of 70 percent water. Dry, semi-dry, and moist dog foods found
>> in pet stores are specifically balanced for your dog's needs, feed them
>> - not raw meat!
>>
>> Sheri Lampright
>> Colorado State University
> Thank you Sheri, it bothers me too. Also, dry dog food helps keep plaque
> in check a lot more than canned food.
>
> Terri
But the dog loves the canned food so much more than the dry kibble. As
a little dog also wants to have some luxury in life, I let him have a three ounces
in a day.
Is it not possible that there are some components in canned food that cannot
be put into dry food?
Bond
Debbie Tripp wrote:
>
> Chip writes:
> >
> > I feed my animals people food. They get hamburgers, hotdogs, chicken,
> > etc. They also get one or two cans a day of cycle puppy food. They
> > love pizza too. The only problem with raw food is that they can get
> > sick from it. I cook the dogs food for them.
> >
> > Chip
>
> Chip,
>
> Dogs do not have guts like humans and do not require their
> meats, vegetables,and fruits to be cooked. The only thing you
> should cook is the grains. Raw meaty bones are paramount to good health
> as it helps keep the teeth clean and free of tartar and the dogs utilise
> the calicium in the raw bones. There are many good books out there on
> the subject of feeding your animals a raw diet. Do web search on "raw
> meaty bones".
>
> "Give That Dog a Bone" by Ian Billinghurst, DVM
> "Dr. Pitcairns Complete Guide to Natural Healt for Dogs and Cats", By Dr.
> Pitcarin, DVM
> "The Natural Remedy Book for Dogs and Cats" by Diane Stein
> Wendy Volhard also has a book out for feeding dogs and cats
> Levy has guides out for feeding dogs and cats naturally.
>
> Debbie Tripp - Saskatoon, SK. Home of Kimberlite Bernese
> Hunka Hunka Berner Love
Followed by a web search on Nutritional disorders from unbalanced diets.
buz...@emuvax.emich.edu
In article <3337FF...@axionet.com>, John <p...@axionet.com> writes:
> I have seen numerous naturopathic writings on the benefits
> has enzymes necessary for health that are destroyed in the
> rendering process. I can believe that rendered meat is devoid
> of much nutritional value. This, I assume, is why vitamins
> and minerals are added to the food. Apparantly these *enzymes*
> cannot be replaced. After having been advised by vets to feed
> my animals foods with ethoxyquin and BHT, and receiving alot of
> conflicting advice from Pet Store employees as to the merits of
> heard that one before!)
>
My two cats have been eating raw beef for 2 years. They are now 2 1/2 years
old and are very healthy. Everybody who sees their pictures comment on how
healthy they look.
The raw beef I feed them is organic. I have also fed them organic raw lamb and
high quality dry food occasionally. I use the recipe in Anitra Frasier's book,
The New Natural Cat.
Jan
David McKittrick
Regarding feeding dogs raw meat: Could a diet of uncooked meat increase
a dog's rate of worm and parasite infestation?
Lisa Baird
Bond wrote:
> > the calicium in the raw bones. There are many good books out there on
> > the subject of feeding your animals a raw diet. Do web search on "raw
> > meaty bones".
> >
> > Books to look for are:
> > "Give That Dog a Bone" by Ian Billinghurst, DVM
> > "Dr. Pitcairns Complete Guide to Natural Healt for Dogs and Cats", By Dr.
> > Pitcarin, DVM
> > "The Natural Remedy Book for Dogs and Cats" by Diane Stein
> > Wendy Volhard also has a book out for feeding dogs and cats
> > Levy has guides out for feeding dogs and cats naturally.
> >
> > --
> > Debbie Tripp - Saskatoon, SK. Home of Kimberlite Bernese
> > Hunka Hunka Berner Love
>
> Followed by a web search on Nutritional disorders from unbalanced diets.
it is absolutely amazing what a great brainwashing job the pet food
industry (which was NON-existant not long ago!) has done on the public
and vets. Never ceases to amaze me how ready people are to discount
things they are not willing tolearn about. I'm willing to bet most of us
who feed a natural diet have researched and TRIED both. Can you say
that?
Victoria Schamber
Amen, Lisa. It's easy enough to do the research, and the research says
commercial packaged is bad, well-researched, balanced homemade is good.
Those who feed their companions a raw, natural diet do not just toss
table scraps at their animal friends. They put a lot of time and effort
into determining what they must include to assure a balanced,
nutritionally complete meal. It is not a decision made lightly, nor one
done w/ little care.
The resources are out there. You just need to open your eyes and look.
Victoria
> >
> > Followed by a web search on Nutritional disorders from unbalanced diets.
>
>
> it is absolutely amazing what a great brainwashing job the pet food
> industry (which was NON-existant not long ago!) has done on the public
> and vets. Never ceases to amaze me how ready people are to discount
> things they are not willing tolearn about. I'm willing to bet most of us
> who feed a natural diet have researched and TRIED both. Can you say
> that?
> --
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> Lisa Baird Want to learn more about Portuguese Water Dogs,
> Haleakala PWD's Dog Agility, or just dogs, in general? Visit my
> Dublin, Oh. Home Page and see the Haleakala PWD's, and visit
> lba...@infinet.com many dog related web sites from my links!
> http://www.infinet.com/~lbaird
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
--
Victoria
afn4...@afn.org
http://www.afn.org/~afn43914
Lisa Baird
Glimpact wrote:
>
> My traditional vet claims that all kinds of e-coli and other diseases can
> be transmitted by eating raw meat. A holistic vet I visited prior to my
> cocker's death said that it was the best thing to feed her.
>
> How do you change these traditional vet's opinions?
Some of them, you don't. A vet who is not open to new ideas is not my
vet long. Curently, my vet is also a good friend. She breeds and shows
dogs as well. She was QUITE skeptical of our raw diet, until she saw the
results. Especially our IBD dog who is now healthier than he has ever
been in his LIFE. Please bear in mind that most nutritional education
vet's receive is funded by pet food companies!
Glimpact
Bond
Lisa Baird wrote:
> vet long. Curently, my vet is also a good friend. She breeds and shows
> dogs as well. She was QUITE skeptical of our raw diet, until she saw the
> results. Especially our IBD dog who is now healthier than he has ever
> been in his LIFE. Please bear in mind that most nutritional education
> vet's receive is funded by pet food companies!
> --
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> Lisa Baird Want to learn more about Portuguese Water Dogs,
> Haleakala PWD's Dog Agility, or just dogs, in general? Visit my
> Dublin, Oh. Home Page and see the Haleakala PWD's, and visit
> lba...@infinet.com many dog related web sites from my links!
> http://www.infinet.com/~lbaird
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
......As is most research into pet health.
Ren
Helen and Charles Goodwin
David McKittrick wrote:
>
> Regarding feeding dogs raw meat: Could a diet of uncooked meat increase
> a dog's rate of worm and parasite infestation?
Very likely but I fed my cats raw meat for years when I used to show and
they were always in lovely condition. I always bought it in a butchers
and occasionally from a pet food store which was passed safe for human
consumption although I preferred to use butchers meat. I never noticed
any particular increase in worm infestation and worming twice a year
should take care of anything anyway.
I tend to cook the meat nowadays but this is only laziness because I
can't be bothered to cut it up - cooked can go through the food processor
or be pulled apart. I found the cats wouldn't touch minced raw meat
even if it was the same as the cut up meat.
I also used to feed the cats cooked fish in the a.m. and went on to tins
when it got a bit expensive.
Obviously, you would have to feed the meat over dog meal for dogs as they
are omnivores as stated in a previous message.
I only fed beef raw - never rabbit or chicken or offal. I hae fed raw
heart in the past though.
Helen
All of us...
On Sun, 06 Apr 1997 14:09:52 -0700, John <p...@axionet.com> wrote:
>Well, first I must tell you that the votes are in on this one, and there is a
>*huge* number of people feeding raw. You think people are overlooking the detrimental
>effects in feeding canines raw meat? Are you going to deny that canines have lived
>on raw meat for many thousands of years? Canines are *carnivores* and to say otherwise,
>I think, smacks of revisionism. Raw meat alone requires calcium supplementation, so you
>feed raw, meaty bones (that canines have devoured for those thousands of years ) also.
>Of course you can feed some vegetable, tofu or other nutritious foods along with the meat.
>The posting you responded to was a little confusing. Some of the original remarks did
>not show up in italics. I have stopped feeding my dog canned food. I can't believe you
>would recommend semi dry/moist foods. Until VERY recently the ingredient that kept it
>moist was propylene glycol.
>
>I'll tell you what.... you tell me when you are prepared to go on a *daily* diet of
>BHA, BHT, Ethoxyquin, and/or propylene glycol and I'll listen more attentatively.
>I won't eat it. My pets don't get it.
I think what the previous poster was saying is that raw meat and thats
it is bad not good for dogs not a natural diet in general.
Raw meaty bones and nothing else is also not enough.
In the wild dogs eat whole animals that they have killed this includes
all the internal organs especially the stomach contents which are
vegetable.
If you feed a natural diet just make sure you do it properly please
dont just feed your dog raw meat or raw bones and nothing else its
very deficient in many nutrients.
Kim
Jason
>On Sun, 06 Apr 1997 14:09:52 -0700, John <p...@axionet.com> wrote:
>
>>Well, first I must tell you that the votes are in on this one, and there is a
>>*huge* number of people feeding raw. You think people are overlooking the
> detrimental
>>effects in feeding canines raw meat? Are you going to deny that canines have
> lived
>>on raw meat for many thousands of years? Canines are *carnivores* and to say
> otherwise,
>>I think, smacks of revisionism. Raw meat alone requires calcium
> supplementation, so you
>>feed raw, meaty bones (that canines have devoured for those thousands of years
> ) also.
Yeah. Great. Dogs are carnivores. No kidding. Why do
people think that feeding a dog as close to its wild animal
cousins is the healthiest thing? Do you really believe that
feeding this way (raw meat and bones) is really best for the
dog? Then why did dogs evolve to have litters of puppies
twice a year? If dogs survived so well in the wild, why did
they need to create such large numbers of offspring every
year? Litters were necessary to keep the species from
becoming extinct because so many DIED every year.
(Obviously not only from dietary problems, but infectious
disease, parasitism .. .which can be diet associated.... and
exposure to the elements).
I have a veterinarian friend who is from Alaska, and
regularly guides tours through arctic tundra for weeks at a
time. He finds dead wolves *often*. Virtually all have
died at young ages (2-3 years) and most have died from
perforated intestines (punctured by bone fragments.)
You want to feed your dogs like they are wolves? Go ahead.
Don't say you weren't warned if your dog has problems.
Jason
Jason
In article <MPG.db44b036...@news.atlantic.net>, afn4...@afn.org (Victoria Schamber) wrote:
>Amen, Lisa. It's easy enough to do the research, and the research says
>commercial packaged is bad, well-researched, balanced homemade is good.
Exactly what research are you referring to? Are these
articles posted in peer-reviewed journals? Which ones?
Do you know how to determine if the study was conducted
properly, or if data was scewed or is statistically
significant? How much do you know about epidemiology and
statistics? What do you know about nutrition that makes you
so great at reviewing research articles and making such
broad statements? "Research says" most people cannot read
journal articles and determine if studies were performed in
ways to minimize bias. Most people cannot tell you the
difference between sensitivity and specificity without
looking it up. Most people cannot explain what "+/- 2
standard deviations" means.
The research you should be interested in should include
that of the author, and if that author is well respected
among his/her peers, or is even able to GET published in
peer reviewed journals.
There is a lot of "research" published out there. It is
easy for people who don't know how to examine these articles
to get misinformation. There are also a lot of books
written by people who can't get published in peer reviewed
journals because their opinions are not backed by scientific
facts. Those of you out there quoting "research" should
think about taking a few epidemiology and statistics
courses. At least post the sources of your information,
so those who can determine the validity of a study can have
the opportunity to do so.
Be careful where you get your information. It may not be
correct. It may be harmful (to you, your family, your
community. and your pets).
Jason
The Crane Family
Jason wrote:
> Exactly what research are you referring to? Are these
> articles posted in peer-reviewed journals? Which ones?
> Jason
Great Comments Jason, Unfortunately I think you will find you
are either preaching to the choir or to those who have not
a clue what you are trying to say. I'm glad to see some one
else in this NG that understands the difference between scientific
evidence and testimony.
Steve Crane
Kedi
: On Sun, 06 Apr 1997 14:09:52 -0700, John <p...@axionet.com> wrote:
:
: >Well, first I must tell you that the votes are in on this one,
and there is a *huge* number of people feeding raw.
You think people are overlooking the detrimental effects in feeding
canines raw meat? Are you going to deny that canines have lived
: >on raw meat for many thousands of years? Canines are *carnivores*
I thought I read that canines, domesticated dogs in particular,
are more along the lines of "opportunistic omnivores" than carnivore,
whereas felines are more strictly carnivorous. This is what I read and
was told by the marvelous people at Valley Vet in Hadley, MA. Correct
moi if I and my vets are mistaken.
-J. Farrow
EMT-D
They say animals can see things we can't.... does that mean they
can see a big neon sign over my head that says "SUCKER"??
S. Shrager
I just saw this thread....
I feed all my dogs a balanced diet of kibble and a raw meat supplement
(25% of their diet). The raw meat is 3/4 muscle meat and 1/4 organ meat,
with organic bone meal mixed in (1 heaping tablespoon per pound of meat
mixture). I have great results, never had an infection or reaction of any
sort, and the dogs are much healthier than prior to the supplementation.
On raw meat--according to the sources I have talked with, the strain of
e-coli found in beef can not survive the digestive enzymes of the dog's
intestinal tract. Apparently it is a *specific* strain of e-coli, with a
specific number, and this research has been done. However, salmonella
*can* be transmitted to the dog, so if using chicken you need to either
cook the meat or sterilize it by soaking in food-grade hydrogen peroxide.
Every book I have read says to stay away from pork. Recently we had a
similar discussion on r.p.d.health, in which a couple of
people claimed that studies had shown that cooked meat was more digestible
for the animal. EVERY book I have read on animal nutrition and feeding
naturally states the opposite.
I have not heard of this new strain of salmonella referred to in a
previous post that can be found in beef. Are there reports of it showing
up in animals eating raw meat?
n,
Sandi Shrager _/ | _
School of Social Work /' `'/
University of Washington <~ .'
san...@u.washington.edu .' |
_/ |
_/ `.`.
____/ ' \__ | |______
@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@a__/___/ /__\ \ \ \___.a@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@
@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@/ (___.'\_______)\_|_| \@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@
@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@|\________ ~~~~~\@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@
~~~\@@@@@@@@@@@@@@|| |\___________________________/|@/~~~~~~~~~~~\@@@
|~~~~\@@@@@@@/ | | | | | ||\____________|@@
OBVC
In article
<Pine.OSF.3.95.97041...@saul4.u.washington.edu>,
san...@u.washington.edu says...
>On raw meat--according to the sources I have talked with, the strain of
>e-coli found in beef can not survive the digestive enzymes of the dog's
>intestinal tract. Apparently it is a *specific* strain of e-coli, with
a
>specific number, and this research has been done. However, salmonella
>*can* be transmitted to the dog, so if using chicken you need to either
>cook the meat or sterilize it by soaking in food-grade hydrogen
peroxide.
<snip>
>Sandi Shrager _/ | _
>School of Social Work /' `'/
>University of Washington <~ .'
>san...@u.washington.edu .' |
Amazing how everyone ignores all posts regarding parasites spread
through the ingestion of raw meat. The parasites are potentially far
more problematic than the bacteria.
Look up information on:
Taneia saginattta
Toxoplasmosis
Echinococcus
Trichinosis
Those are just a few of the common ones.... there are plenty more.
Anyone who ignores these dangers is fooling themselves into a false
sense of security. There is an easy way to prevent these infections....
cook all meat WELL before eating (whether you are human, dog,
whatever...)
--
Ocean Beach Veterinary Hospital
http://www.cport.com/~obvc/
OB...@aol.com
|
PLEASE NOTE: In the absence of a traditional veterinarian-client-patient
relationship, this information should be taken as a friendly opinion,
not
as an official clinical recommendation.
Michelle
In article <5j87ju$7ee$2...@news.structured.net>, OB...@no-bulkmail.please.OBVC
says.....
>Amazing how everyone ignores all posts regarding parasites spread
>through the ingestion of raw meat. The parasites are potentially far
>more problematic than the bacteria.
>
>Look up information on:
>
>Taneia saginattta
>Toxoplasmosis
>Echinococcus
>Trichinosis
>
>Those are just a few of the common ones.... there are plenty more.
>
>Anyone who ignores these dangers is fooling themselves into a false
>sense of security. There is an easy way to prevent these infections....
>cook all meat WELL before eating (whether you are human, dog,
>whatever...)
>
Thanks, OBVC, it is apparent that some people tend to forget this little fact
and its importance. Perhaps you can add to another question/statement that I
have seen around with this thread.(I've already tried to correct it, but
perhaps a few people missed it) People keep stating that raw meat contains the
"certain enzymes" that dogs need and that if cooked they are destroyed. Well,
if enzymes are proteins, and cooking denatures, not destroys, proteins, and
denatured proteins are more readily bio-available and more easily digested,
why, oh why, do people insist that the enzymes found in raw meat are somehow
"better" than the same enzymes found in cooked meat which are more accessible
to the dog?
Michelle R. Lewis, LVT
--
A_A
(-.-)
)-(
/ \
| |
| | | | )
\_| |_/__/
He who has a dog to worship him
should have a cat to ignore him.
Michelle
I'm going to assume (I know, I know..When you assume you make an as* out of U
and Me) I'm still going to assume that when these people are saying "enyzmes"
they are really referring to "proteins" available in the food. In that case,
wouldn't cooking the food be a more bio-available diet for the dog? Don't get
me wrong. I am neither for, nor against, raw meat as a part of a diet. Until
I have gathered enough information on the use of raw meat in a diet, I can't
and won't make that decision or recommendation. It just seems to me that if
protein is denatured via cooking that this would make the protease work more
efficiently in the body. On the other hand, if the protease works just as
efficiently without cooking the meat as with cooking the meat, than I would
assume (again, I know) that the only problem would be, as you stated, the
parasites involved.
In article <5j8m29$f4n$1...@news.structured.net>, ***OB...@nospam.aol.com.OBVC
says.....
>
>In article <5j8epu$d...@newsstand.cit.cornell.edu>, mr...@cornell.edu
>says...
>> People keep stating that raw meat contains the
>>"certain enzymes" that dogs need and that if cooked they are destroyed.
> Well,
>>if enzymes are proteins, and cooking denatures, not destroys, proteins,
>and
>>denatured proteins are more readily bio-available and more easily
>digested,
>>why, oh why, do people insist that the enzymes found in raw meat are
>somehow
>>"better" than the same enzymes found in cooked meat which are more
>accessible
>>to the dog?
>>
>>Michelle R. Lewis, LVT
>
>Good point Michelle. Actually, proteins are denatured by acid in the
>stomach in much the same way that they are denatured by cooking. The
>dog's pancrease produces all the enzymes needed to digest the food it
>eats (unlike termites which require the bacteria in their guts to digest
>wood, or cattle which have bacteria and protozoa which break down
>cellulose - plant fiber - ). The pancrease produces "protease" which is
>an enzyme that "digests" protein. Again.... the dog produces the
>enzymes needed for digestion, the enzymes do not need to be present in
>the food when ingested.
>
>--
>Ocean Beach Veterinary Hospital
>http://www.cport.com/~obvc/
>OB...@aol.com
>|
>PLEASE NOTE: In the absence of a traditional veterinarian-client-patient
>relationship, this information should be taken as a friendly opinion,
>not
>as an official clinical recommendation.
>Commercial/bulk/solicitation email unwelcome.
OBVC
John
As the person who initiated this particular round of debate,
I leave you with *my* conclusion on the subject. If it is "not
suitable for human consumption", it is not suitable for my
feline/canine friends.
(Check out these links for elaboration.)
http://ourpets.com/articles/foodcontent.html
http://www.peg.apc.org/~nexus/petfood.html
http://www.newveg.av.org/petfood.htm
http://pw2.netcom.com/~captains/petfood.html
All the best to all of you!
John
> (http://www.peg.apc.org/~nexus/petfood.html)
>
> *should read:*
http://www.peg.apc.org/~nexus/Petfood.html
Petowner
Michelle wrote:
>
> On the other hand, if the protease works just as
> efficiently without cooking the meat as with cooking the meat, than I would
> assume (again, I know) that the only problem would be, as you stated, the
> parasites involved.
>
>
rendering plant stories turn my stomach. Also, perhaps someone could
explain why my friend, who has eaten blue rare steak for years
(steak Dianne?) has not been bothered by parasites.
Petowner.
OBVC
In article <335737...@axionet.com>, p...@axionet.com says...
>
>As the person who initiated this particular round of debate,
>I leave you with *my* conclusion on the subject. If it is "not
>suitable for human consumption", it is not suitable for my
>feline/canine friends.
So John,
When was the last time you heard an MD touting raw meat for human
consumption?
Der schwarze Buccaneer
On 22 Apr 1997, OBVC wrote:
> > I guess what you feed your pets depends on the
> >quality of meat which is available for you to give them (ie: if you
> >live somewhere where worms/parasites are a problem then you would cook it
> >first).
>
> I have yet to see meat sold as "certified parasite-free organic".
> I also have yet to find an area of the world without parasite problems.
> If you think there are not parasites, you just don't know what to look
> for. Just because an animals does not show any outward signs of
> illness, does not mean the animal is healthy, and does not mean the
> parasites are not causing harm.
I think if most people who feed their pets (or themselves) raw
meat could just go to a meat packing plant for a day and examine the
parasites, they'd be less inclined to continue the process. They might
be less inclined to eat meat at all! Food safety is just not taught very
well here in the U.S. for some reason.
-Scott Allen
js-a...@students.uiuc.edu
"At dawn we will face the greatest test of our resolve. But I
say this: though starving, hunger will not weaken us; though diseased,
illness will not cripple us, and though weary, exhaustion will not claim
us. We can fight knowing that all true Reiklanders will forevermore
honour our valiant gesture of defiance, even though our bodies be left to
feed the beasts of carrion.
Mind you...we could always surrender." -Rick Priestly's Siege
Vick
So, Ocean Beach Veterinary Hospital--
If not raw meat, what's the solution? Commercially produced pet foods are
CRAP, and we all know it. Did you read the articles? You want to chastise
those who take an active role in the health of their animals, yet you
offer no alternatives to feeding pets rendered carcasses of euthanized
animals, among other horrible things.
How 'bout you contribute some knowledge, not condem those looking to
improve their animals diets.
> >
> >As the person who initiated this particular round of debate,
> >I leave you with *my* conclusion on the subject. If it is "not
> >suitable for human consumption", it is not suitable for my
> >feline/canine friends.
>
> So John,
>
> When was the last time you heard an MD touting raw meat for human
> consumption?
>
> --
> Ocean Beach Veterinary Hospital
--
Victoria
afn4...@afn.org
http://www.afn.org/~afn43914
Tracy Bell
It is natural for animals to eat raw meat and they do prefer it to cooked
but will eat either. I guess what you feed your pets depends on the
OBVC
In article <01bc4eb9$82bbe700$0b3f...@indrmipc2036.dnr.qld.gov.au>,
be...@dpi.qld.gov.au says...
I have yet to see meat sold as "certified parasite-free organic".
I also have yet to find an area of the world without parasite problems.
If you think there are not parasites, you just don't know what to look
for. Just because an animals does not show any outward signs of
illness, does not mean the animal is healthy, and does not mean the
parasites are not causing harm.
--
Ocean Beach Veterinary Hospital
OBVC
In article <MPG.dc5fc1de...@news.atlantic.net>,
cat4...@afn.org says...
>How 'bout you contribute some knowledge, not condem those looking to
>improve their animals diets.
Hmm. Victoria, I believe giving accurate information about the dangers
of raw meat is called contribulting some knowledge. I can't count the
number of times I have discussed the various parasites contained in raw
meat. Nobody seems to care. Maybe people only think parasites cause
poor hair coats and diarrhea. Unfortunately, this is not the case.
The Crane Family
Vick wrote:
>
> So, Ocean Beach Veterinary Hospital--
>
> If not raw meat, what's the solution? Commercially produced pet foods are
> CRAP, and we all know it. Did you read the articles? You want to chastise
> those who take an active role in the health of their animals, yet you
> offer no alternatives to feeding pets rendered carcasses of euthanized
> animals, among other horrible things.
I hate to wade in on this on but logic seems to dictate some response is needed.
In comparing the research that has been done by individuals who feed raw
materials, zip zero nada as an example, I have to wonder how anyone
in their right mind thinks they can possibly analyze all the ingredients
they use to create their own "special" foods. I would agree that some
pet food manufacturers produce junk. The majority of the better companies
analyze every raw ingredient they use and determine exactly what levels
of nutrients are in the product they are making. In other words they have the
ability to analyze the phosphorous, calcium, and other nutrients in each
of the raw ingredients they use. Most take the time to insure that all the
trace nutrients are well represented. I am not aware of anyone who personally
owns a gas plasma spectrometer to analyze the "raw" products they feed.
Parasites aside you cannot possibly make a better food than one of the
better companies because you have no way to determine what the nutrient
levels are in the raw ingredients you use.
Michelle
In article <335D5D...@televar.com>, rose...@televar.com.The Crane Family
says.....
Another point to add to OBVH's excellent post is that, though people think they
may be giving the appropriate levels of say, calcium, or protein, etc...they
could, in fact be giving way TOO MUCH. Many people don't realize that if they
give, say, bone meal for calcium, that they are also giving phosphorous as
well. Then, when they add something into the diet to give the phosphorous,
they are, in fact, giving more than the animal needs. This in turn throws off
the calcium to phosphorous ratio. (This is just an example...it applies to
each and every nutrient needed for health)
Michelle R. Lewis, LVT
--
A_A
(-.-)
)-(
/ \
| |
| | | | )
\_| |_/__/
He who has a dog to worship him
should have a cat to ignore him.
***note: I will be off-line from May 10th to the end of August..yeah, summer
break! Keep things relatively sane till my return :) ***
Vick
In article <335D5D...@televar.com>, rose...@televar.com says...
> >
> > If not raw meat, what's the solution? Commercially produced pet foods are
> > CRAP, and we all know it. Did you read the articles? You want to chastise
> > those who take an active role in the health of their animals, yet you
> > offer no alternatives to feeding pets rendered carcasses of euthanized
> > animals, among other horrible things.
>
> I hate to wade in on this on but logic seems to dictate some response is
The reason "anyone in their right minds" can think that they can and are
feeding the proper balances and ratios of nutrients is because there are
several books available that tell us what to add and in what ammounts.
One of these such books is written by a veterinarian, Dr Richard H.
Pitcairn.
Do you people READ the articles on pet foods provided? Or do you
blissfully believe that commercial pet foods are fine? I agree that there
are some "super premium" foods that are superior to the average crap, but
even these are coked and processed.
And what do you have to say to people whose animals kill birds or mice?
When my cat was indoor/outdoor, he killed and ate all sorts of (raw)
animals. No problems then, and no problems now.
OBVC
In article <MPG.dc7db5ae...@news.atlantic.net>,
cat4...@afn.org says...
>The reason "anyone in their right minds" can think that they can and
are
>feeding the proper balances and ratios of nutrients is because there
are
>several books available that tell us what to add and in what ammounts.
>One of these such books is written by a veterinarian, Dr Richard H.
>Pitcairn.
I havn't seen any other veterinarians on this newsgroup recommending
that book. Are there any here who would like to comment? I also havn't
seen any veterinarians backing up the claims of those recommending raw
meat.
>And what do you have to say to people whose animals kill birds or mice?
>When my cat was indoor/outdoor, he killed and ate all sorts of (raw)
>animals. No problems then, and no problems now.
Interesting. I see parasite infestations all the time caused by animals
eating rodents, insects, offal, etc. I do see problems (of course, I
see about 15-20 different animals every day...)
M.L. Salvail
I just have to jump in on this thread and speak my piece. Some of you may
remember me. I have a 4 1/2 year old BC mix named Angel who has a
congenital heart murmur. I posted many times here about her and received
conventional advice but she worsened to the point tht we were talking about
"putting her to sleep". Then, someone from the Papillon list steered me to
homeopathic medicine and natural pet care and our lives have been changed.
ANgel has not had to go to the vet for a Lasix shot since November and she
was going almost daily in the month prior to this.
I BELIEVE in the raw food diet, Dr. Pitcairn's teachings and homeopathic
medicine. My dog is living a quality life and it is a miracle. Keep feeding
that dry kibble like the SD crap if you want but if you ever dared to read
the material out there on natural pet care with an open mind, you would be
amazed at how much sense it makes. It is all about nutrition.
My URL for my home page is listed below. Please go there and follow the
link for Angels Page: Natural Pet Care. Read her story. Follow the
suggested links. Read. Learn. Dare to do the right thing for your pet and
not the "easy" thing of dumping processed food out of a bag. And don't
bother flaming me for I have a beautiful fur baby who is alive due to raw
chicken bones, raw ground turkey, vitamins, a homeopathic remedy and lots
of love and attention to her overall condition and not just suppression of
her symptoms.
--
Mary, BIll, Angel, Eddie, Jenny,Webster, Mandy, Trudy & Oliver
~~~~~~~~~~******ma...@doglover.com******~~~~~~~~~~~
Come and visit me: http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Hills/6813/
Andrea Madeley
>As the person who initiated this particular round of debate,
>I leave you with *my* conclusion on the subject. If it is "not
>suitable for human consumption", it is not suitable for my
>feline/canine friends.
So John,
When was the last time you heard an MD touting raw meat for human
consumption?
Ocean Beach Veterinary Hospital
And to you I reply....
When was it that a dog was ever not considered a meat eater?
Unbelievable!
--
Andrea Madeley
Aldinga Beach / South Australia
Andrea Madeley
OBVC Writes:
> I have yet to see meat sold as "certified parasite-free organic".
> I also have yet to find an area of the world without parasite problems.
> If you think there are not parasites, you just don't know what to look
> for. Just because an animals does not show any outward signs of
> illness, does not mean the animal is healthy, and does not mean the
> parasites are not causing harm.
>
Dogs are quite capable of withstanding many parasites and germs. Their
intestinal and digestive make up is designed for that of an animal that
scavenges! Scavengers eat decaying food packed full of parasites and
bacteria.
How in gods name did these animals ever survive without Pet Foods?
And why is that Vets so enjoy telling us to feed all these expensive brands
of commercial dog food?
Could there be a dollar in it?
Debbie Tripp
I am also an advocate of raw/home prepared diet for my dogs. I used to
be a staunch defender for commercial kibble - afterall, I've been feeding
that to my dogs for over 10 years. Last August though, I lost one of my
dogs to cancer of the liver and spleen. The kibble I was feeding was
preserved with BTH/BHA. Upon various research into kibble, I keep coming
across the same reference over and over again...BTH/BHA is linked to
cancers in the liver! I know this is not proof positive that the cancer
in my dog was caused by the food, but it was enough of a suggestion for
me to keep on reading and researching.
By preparing my own foods for my dogs I now have control over what
exactly is going into their bodies. With a commercial kibble, I have no
control over the ingredients (even the so-called premium brands), where
they come from or even how much of the ratio of protein, calcium,
phospherous, etc. is given. Most dog food manufacturers obtain
ingredients from other companies (one such company recently won an
award for turning food waste products unfit for human consumption into
animal foods) and rendering plants who prepare these mixtures and list
the percentage. Although these companies are regulated and inspected,
the inspections are few and far between - so, there is no guarantee that
the percentages listed are accurate. And the labels on ALL kibbles give
the percentages of proteins, calcium, ash, etc. in *MINIMUM* amounts.
Therefore, you have no idea what ratio of protein to calcium you are
feeding - you only know the minimum amount that is in the bag - there is
no MAXIMUM amount listed. So, don't tell me that these analyzed list of
ingredients are accurate and balanced.
No amount of clever advertising depicting prime chunks of meat, wholesome
grains, and fresh veggies will ever convince me that that is what is in
the kibble bag - nor, will it ever convince me that a processed food is
anywhere superior to fresh foods.
Since switching to a home prepared diet consisting of fresh raw chicken
meat and bones (human grade), fresh pulverized vegetables and fruits,
various grains, vitamins and minerals my dogs have never looked better.
Their teeth are sparkling white, their breath is fresh. They do not have
a doggy odour and they brim with energy and vitality. Meal times are an
event and all bowls are licked clean. Coats are lusterious and full.
There are several books available to help anyone who is wishing to feed
raw, wholesome foods to their pets. Sure, it's a bit more time consuming
but your pets are worth the effort.
It is important that you read and research for yourself before embarking
on any diet for your pets. I suggest the following books:
"Dr. Pitcairn's Complete Guide to Natural Feeding for Dogs and Cats"
"Give Your Dog a Bone", by Ian Billinghurst, DVM
"The Natural Remedy Book for Dogs and Cats", by Diane Stein
"The Complete Herbal Handbook for the Dog and Cat" by J. deBairacli Levy
For those of you who think that feeding raw meats will pass on bacterias,
well the carnivore gut (and dogs have a carnivore gut) is not the same as
humans. IT is designed for rapid digestion of food and elimination - to
process meat and bones. The carnivore gut is only 3 times as long as the
body, whereas in humans the gut is 15 times as long - designed to process
grains and vegetables.
If raw meat still bothers you for bacteria there are methods detailed in
the above books for dealing with it - such as soaking the meat in
food-grade peroxide or grapefruit seed extract. These processes kill the
bacteria. As far as worms/parasites are concerned....a healthy gut is no
environment for worms. Along with the meat is fed vegetables and herbs
known to get rid of worms and parasites. These include but are not
limited to garlic and raw, grated carrots.
Worms and parasites are not limited to dogs and cats fed on a raw,
natural diet...animals fed on commerical kibble still get worms and
parasites. Yes, cats get worms from eating mice, but it is from the
fleas on the mice. I'm not advocating you feed flea ridden carcasses to
your animals.
For further information on the wonderful ingredients that go into your
commercial petfoods please try this website:
http://www.peg.apc.org/~nexus/Petfood.html
--
Debbie Tripp - Saskatoon, Saskatchewan Canada.
OBVC
In article <01bc5088$7cfd9860$301b...@ppp.mtx.net.au>,
amad...@dove.net.au says...
>When was the last time you heard an MD touting raw meat for human
>consumption?
>
>Ocean Beach Veterinary Hospital
>
>And to you I reply....
>
>When was it that a dog was ever not considered a meat eater?
>Unbelievable!
>
>
>--
>Andrea Madeley
>Aldinga Beach / South Australia
Andrea,
raw meat is not suitable for human consumption. (or dog or cat
consumption) if you are trying avoid disease.
Vick
>
> >As the person who initiated this particular round of debate,
> >I leave you with *my* conclusion on the subject. If it is "not
> >suitable for human consumption", it is not suitable for my
> >feline/canine friends.
>
> So John,
>
> consumption?
>
This is just silly. Cats and Dogs are very different from humans both
physically AND physiologically. Most importantly, their digestive tracts
are much shorter than ours, leaving less time for digestion. It makes
very logical sense that food that has been processed and cooked and
chemically "enhanced" (ha-ha) would be very difficult to digest in a
system designed to quickly extract nutrients from raw meat and slightly
digested vegetable matter and grains (the stomach contents of prey
animals). Humans, OTOH, have very long digestive tracts which are better
equiped to slowly extract nutients.
And even for us, crappy processed food = crappy health.
OBVC
In article <335F7B...@sk.sympatico.ca>, dtr...@sk.sympatico.ca
says...
>
> - so, there is no guarantee that
>the percentages listed are accurate. And the labels on ALL kibbles
give
>the percentages of proteins, calcium, ash, etc. in *MINIMUM* amounts.
>Therefore, you have no idea what ratio of protein to calcium you are
>feeding - you only know the minimum amount that is in the bag - there
is
>no MAXIMUM amount listed.
<snip>
True and false. ... quality companies like Hills provide detailed
analysis giving the exact amounts of each nutrient based on dry matter
(watch out for listings of ingredients not based on dry matter, moisture
makes those listings virtually worthless unless you know the moisture
content.) So, it is possible to get accurate information from SOME
companies regarding the exact nutrient levels in their food. In fact, I
have a book that lists this highly detailed information for EACH of the
Hills diet on the market (including prescription and non-prescription
diets).
>If raw meat still bothers you for bacteria there are methods detailed
in
>the above books for dealing with it - such as soaking the meat in
>food-grade peroxide or grapefruit seed extract. These processes kill
the
>bacteria.
Have you performed cultures on the meat treated in this manner? WHat
proof is available that this actually works?
> As far as worms/parasites are concerned....a healthy gut is no
>environment for worms.
So why do puppies fed nothing but their own mothers natural milk almost
alway get roundworms? Are their guts not healthy?
> Along with the meat is fed vegetables and herbs
>known to get rid of worms and parasites. These include but are not
>limited to garlic and raw, grated carrots.
There is no reliable data available showing that garlic or carrots get
rid of parasites. Which parasites are these foods supposed to be
effective against?
>
>Worms and parasites are not limited to dogs and cats fed on a raw,
>natural diet...animals fed on commerical kibble still get worms and
>parasites.
No kidding. But they aren't getting parasites from the kibble.
> Yes, cats get worms from eating mice, but it is from the
>fleas on the mice.
The worms from the fleas (I presume you are suggesting tapeworms) are
not the only parasites animals get from rodents. Tapeworms are probably
the least harmful of the parasites spread by rodents.
Debbie Tripp
OBVC <OB...@aol.com> writes:
(snip)
>D
> >Worms and parasites are not limited to dogs and cats fed on a raw,
> >natural diet...animals fed on commerical kibble still get worms and
> >parasites.
>
> No kidding. But they aren't getting parasites from the kibble.
(snip)
Yes - let's discuss what they DO get from kibble:
I'll start my list:
- tartar covered teeth
- skin problems
- yeasty ears
- kidney failures
- FUS in cats
- brittle, dry coats
- immune problems
- allergies
- bloat
- hot spots
This is to name a few problems. Then the consumer switches to a
different kibble to try and take care of these problems. They sometimes
go away or are controlled (masked), but often the allergies or skin
problems come back a few months later, so then the animal is perscribed
drugs to control the condition - often in the form of steriods...causing
even further disease and harmful affects on the body.
These conditions should not be accepted as a matter of course. I know of
many people who's animals have suffered from the above painful conditions
are once switched to a fresh, wholesome, raw and home-made diet get
better. Why - because you can control the ingredients that you feed your
dog or cat. You can eliminate the ingredient that causes the problem in
allergies - unlike in a kibble, you cannot control every ingredient.
Debbie Tripp
OBVC wrote:
>
> In article <01bc5088$7cfd9860$301b...@ppp.mtx.net.au>,
> amad...@dove.net.au says...
>
> >When was the last time you heard an MD touting raw meat for human
> >consumption?
> >
> >Ocean Beach Veterinary Hospital
> >
> >And to you I reply....
> >
> >When was it that a dog was ever not considered a meat eater?
> >Unbelievable!
> >
> >
> >--
> >Andrea Madeley
> >Aldinga Beach / South Australia
>
> Andrea,
> raw meat is not suitable for human consumption. (or dog or cat
> consumption) if you are trying avoid disease.
>
> --
> Ocean Beach Veterinary Hospital
> http://www.cport.com/~obvc/
> OB...@aol.com
> |
What an absolutely assine thing to say that a dog, which is an omnivore
with a carnivore gut, and a cat, that is a true carnivore, should not eat
raw meat. Put away your Hill's written text books on nutrition and give
your head a good shake.
Barbara Palansky
Hello,
I am not a vet and do not proclaim to play one on TV either :) However
I must beg to disagree here.
I have fed my 2 mastiff bitches raw meat and people food; my first,
since she was about 6 months old, and my second, since she was 4 months
old. Both are thriving on this diet and have lost their "normal"
problems... pano, allergies, ear infections, etc. The pet foods on the
market today are not what God intended our animals to eat. Dogs don't
cook! :) And, a dog's digestive system is much different than ours. Of
all the years that I have been feeding raw, I have not had any problems
with parasites or bacteria. Neither have friends of mine who have been
doing this for 20+ years with wonderful results. My girls are happy and
energetic, with glossy coats and wonderful temperaments. I cannot
remember the last time they went to the vet, other than a well-pet
checkup.
There are so many hidden toxins in pet food. Most "premium" pet foods
on the market today have "recycled" pets in them... with the flea
collars still on. And the chemical preservatives in these foods, it is
a wonder that our pets are still alive. Ethoxyquin is a carcinogenic
cocktail for pets. And if you are lucky and they don't get cancer, they
probably have other nagging problems throughout their life... skin
problems, ear problems, etc. All wonderful, hard to trace things that
give your vet something to see you and your pet for. Ask your
veterinarian how much nutrition training they got in school, and in
supplemental training. Then ask them who taught the course and where
the textbooks came from. It is food for thought.
I do not fault veterinarians for this. They just were never taught any
different. It is a mutually beneficial relationship for "scraps" to be
used in pet foods,and veterinarians to suggest that these pet foods are
used, because it keeps them both in business. I feel sorry for most
vets, because the wool is really being pulled over their eyes. For if a
veterinarian realized this, they certainly couldn't keep recommending
this stuff with a good conscience.
If anyone is interested in feeding their pets differently there are some
wonderful resources out there. There is a book by Dr. Richard Pitcairn
DVM that is a great introduction to feeding pets people food. And there
are other wonderful books out there as well that can give you a
foundation to go on when attempting to feed raw. See if there are any
holistic veterinarians in your area. There is a good web site, to start
looking, www.altvetmed.com. Ask your holistic vet what they think about
pet foods and vaccinations. (But that is a whole other can of worms to
open that I won't open now) <BG>
If you are interested in my experiences or would like additional good
resources, let me know. I do not watch this newsgroup, so please
e-mail any response. Flamers need not apply.
:)
TTFN
Barbara
--
------------------------------------------------------------------------
.. .. | Barbara A. Palansky
|| || | Customer Support Engineer
|| || | phone: 919.472.3118 fax: 919.472.2118
|||| |||| | email: bpal...@cisco.com
.:||||||:..:||||||:. | 7025 Kit Creek Road
cisco Systems, Inc. | Research Triangle Park, North Carolina 27709
------------------------------------------------------------------------
OBVC
In article <01bc5089$5a76ad80$301b...@ppp.mtx.net.au>,
amad...@dove.net.au says...
>Dogs are quite capable of withstanding many parasites and germs. Their
>intestinal and digestive make up is designed for that of an animal that
>scavenges! Scavengers eat decaying food packed full of parasites and
>bacteria.
>
>How in gods name did these animals ever survive without Pet Foods?
Poorly, with short scavenging lives. This is why these animals have
litters of offspring, so enough will survive to reproduce next year.
Parasite control is one of many ways to AVOID medical problems and
expenses. I can make quite a bit more money treating sick animals than
preventing disease, but I choose to try and prevent disease and
suffering.
>
>And why is that Vets so enjoy telling us to feed all these expensive
brands
>of commercial dog food?
You get what you pay for. Many brands cannot live up to the
expectations of pet owners or veterinarians. Unfortunately, people
continue to buy them, keeping these inferior products in the market
place.
>
>Could there be a dollar in it?
A lot more dollars in sick animals than in healthy ones.
Maybe all the parasite nay-sayers should do some reading in parasitology
texts and learn about the parasite life cycles. Most parasites do not
just live in the intestine, they migrate through the tissues of the host
animal. Many public health significance (such are Toxocara and
Balisascaris - which can migrate into the central nervous system and
eyes of humans). Most of the harm and damage done to the animal has
nothing to do with the digestive system. There is a parasite ( a fluke
) that dogs in the pacific northwest commonly become infected with from
eating raw fish. It is usually fatal without treatment (salmon
poisoning).
I have not said anything in this particular thread discouraging
home-made diets. I have a problem with people feeding (or recommending)
raw meat.
--
Ocean Beach Veterinary Hospital
http://www.cport.com/~obvc/
OB...@aol.com
|
Debbie Tripp
OBVC wrote:
>
> In article <335F7B...@sk.sympatico.ca>, dtr...@sk.sympatico.ca
> says...
> >
>
> > - so, there is no guarantee that
> >the percentages listed are accurate. And the labels on ALL kibbles
> give
> >the percentages of proteins, calcium, ash, etc. in *MINIMUM* amounts.
> >Therefore, you have no idea what ratio of protein to calcium you are
> >feeding - you only know the minimum amount that is in the bag - there
> is
> >no MAXIMUM amount listed.
> <snip>
>
> True and false. ... quality companies like Hills provide detailed
> analysis giving the exact amounts of each nutrient based on dry matter
> (watch out for listings of ingredients not based on dry matter, moisture
> makes those listings virtually worthless unless you know the moisture
> content.) So, it is possible to get accurate information from SOME
> companies regarding the exact nutrient levels in their food. In fact, I
> have a book that lists this highly detailed information for EACH of the
> Hills diet on the market (including prescription and non-prescription
> diets).
How can you advocate a kibble who's main (usually) ingredient
is corn and is perserved with ethoxoquin? When was the last time you
ever saw a cat or dog stalking a corn field to make a meal. Corn - nice
and cheap and every so available to push down our pet's throats. You
wouldn't by any chance sell Hills and Science Diet now would you?
Well, Madame - I'm looking at a Hill cat kibble bag at this moment and it
absolutely DOES NOT give minimum and maximum for every ingredient in the
bag. This is what it lists:
Crude Protein - Min. 30%
Crude Fat - Min. 22%
Crude Fibre - Max. 2%
Moisture - Max 10%
Ash - Max 5%
Calcuim - Min 0.6%
Phosphorus - Min. 0.4%
Magnesium - Max. 0.1%
Taurine - Min. 0.1%
And the top ingredient in this cat food...brewer's rice and then chicken
poultry by-product meal and animal fat (perserved with BHA), then later
on it list ethoxyquin - yet another lovely preservative)
> >If raw meat still bothers you for bacteria there are methods detailed
> in
> >the above books for dealing with it - such as soaking the meat in
> >food-grade peroxide or grapefruit seed extract. These processes kill
> the
> >bacteria.
>
> Have you performed cultures on the meat treated in this manner? WHat
> proof is available that this actually works?
No Madame I have not. Have you? Anyway, I'm of the opinion that the
carnivore gut is quite capable of handling much more bacteria and germs
than you give it credit for. It was designed for this - centuries ago.
I offered up the suggestions in these various books in regards to
sterilizing raw meat for those who were concerned.
If you have come across such parasites and germs in your clinic in dogs
and cats I'd like to ask you - were these dogs and cats free roaming to
scavange in garbage cans and partake in carrion and meat that was left
outside to gather flies and worms? Obviously, the cats were left to roam
outside and eat mice and birds - hardly the meat that I'm suggesting one
might offer to their pets. The people (including myself) who feed raw
meat according to the books I wrote about previously, do not use meat
left to lie on the butcher shop floor, nor scrapings or stuff unfit for
humans. We use fresh meat.
>
> > As far as worms/parasites are concerned....a healthy gut is no
> >environment for worms.
>
> So why do puppies fed nothing but their own mothers natural milk almost
> alway get roundworms? Are their guts not healthy?
They do not ALWAYS get roundworms. I have whelped puppies that have not
had roundworms and yes, I've had their feces analysed for worms.
>
> > Along with the meat is fed vegetables and herbs
> >known to get rid of worms and parasites. These include but are not
> >limited to garlic and raw, grated carrots.
>
> There is no reliable data available showing that garlic or carrots get
> rid of parasites. Which parasites are these foods supposed to be
> effective against?
Guess I only have to go by own experiences and experiences of a scores of
others who embrace this way of feeding. Sorry, it's not scientific.
Again, Madam, I merely suggesting to others that their are books
available and other methods to feed and old-time folk remedies that have
been used and worked for centuries. Just because it doesn't come in a
neat
little bottle, dispensed by a DVM doesn't mean it will not work.
> >Worms and parasites are not limited to dogs and cats fed on a raw,
> >natural diet...animals fed on commerical kibble still get worms and
> >parasites.
>
> No kidding. But they aren't getting parasites from the kibble.
>
> > Yes, cats get worms from eating mice, but it is from the
> >fleas on the mice.
>
> The worms from the fleas (I presume you are suggesting tapeworms) are
> not the only parasites animals get from rodents. Tapeworms are probably
> the least harmful of the parasites spread by rodents.
See my previous paragraph in regards to the type of meat to feed (not out
of garbage cans).
You'll never convince me that feeding that processed kibble will improve
the health and vitality of my dogs. I've met more and more people who
are switching to natural rearing these days because it just makes sense.
Take control!
I have a distinct feeling that you've never read any of the books I
mentioned in my last post, nor do I think you've bothered to have a look
at any of the web pages that people have offered up for information. My
own vet doesn't always agree with me on my methods of feeding, but when I
bring him material to read, he takes the time to read it and consider it.
He has added to his allopath methods some of the herbal and holistic
things offered up in these books because they work. He cannot deny the
health and vigor of my dogs either.
OBVC
In article <335FDB...@sk.sympatico.ca>, dtr...@sk.sympatico.ca
says...
>
>Yes - let's discuss what they DO get from kibble:
>
>I'll start my list:
>- tartar covered teeth
>- skin problems
>- yeasty ears
>- kidney failures
>- FUS in cats
>- brittle, dry coats
>- immune problems
>- allergies
>- bloat
>- hot spots
>
So all these problems never existed before kibble was invented? I find
that very hard to believe and I am sure you will find it even harder to
prove.
I find it amazing that people want to blame every health problem on
food. I suppose corns and bunions in humans come from eating pizza....
You would probably get along great with the naturopath who claimed AIDS
was an autoimmune disease. (oh sorry... you would say it was a
nutritional disorder.)
Andrea Madeley
> Amazing how everyone ignores all posts regarding parasites spread
> through the ingestion of raw meat. The parasites are potentially far
> more problematic than the bacteria.
>
> Anyone who ignores these dangers is fooling themselves into a false
> sense of security. There is an easy way to prevent these infections....
> cook all meat WELL before eating (whether you are human, dog,
> whatever...)
> Ocean Beach Veterinary Hospital
Oh dear - well I am at a complete loss. Why is it that in a nation like
Australia where so many people still feed raw meat and bones....why do our
dogs live at all....let alone thrive?
Please answer me that.
Andrea Madeley
> why, oh why, do people insist that the enzymes found in raw meat are
somehow
> "better" than the same enzymes found in cooked meat which are more
accessible
> to the dog?
>
> Michelle R. Lewis, LVT
Michelle,
There are many different types of enzymes in raw food and these enzymes and
antioxidants are destroyed once they are heated over 70 degrees C. These
enzymes are what make a raw apple or carrot shrivel up and a piece of raw
meat decay...they are naturally occurring and they are of great benefit to
the crosslinking process (premature aging). In other words - they assist
the dog's system in fighting the free radicals that attack the body. Free
radicals are nasty little critters and no natural enzymes means a poor
defense system.
Why is it do you think that Human Health Authorities are advising people to
eat more unprocessed food and more raw natural food? It's the new
discoveries of how important these enzymes and anti oxidants are to our
system and that there is still so much more that the Scientists are
discovering of their benefits everyday.
A dog is no different to a human being apart from the fact that we should
NOT eat raw meat as our digestive tract is far to long and complex to cope
with those same bacteria. Processed food is not providing the dog with the
protection against diseases and illness and his immune system is suffering
as a result. The only variation to this is that a dog's digestive system
can cope with a much higher level of bacteria and even some of those
dreaded parasites due to his digestive system.
OBVC
In article <335FCA...@sk.sympatico.ca>, dtr...@sk.sympatico.ca
says...
>If you have come across such parasites and germs in your clinic in dogs
>and cats I'd like to ask you - were these dogs and cats free roaming to
>scavange in garbage cans and partake in carrion and meat that was left
>outside to gather flies and worms? Obviously, the cats were left to
roam
>outside and eat mice and birds - hardly the meat that I'm suggesting
one
>might offer to their pets. The people (including myself) who feed raw
>meat according to the books I wrote about previously, do not use meat
>left to lie on the butcher shop floor, nor scrapings or stuff unfit for
>humans. We use fresh meat.
>>
This is amazing. The parasites I mentioned have absolutely nothing to
do with meat being fresh or left on the butcher shop floor. Actually,
the fresher, the better as far as the parasite is concerned.
You obviously know very little about how meat is processed, how it is
examined, how cattle/pigs/goats/sheep are raised and managed.
If you seriously want to feed raw meat, I suggest you contact the FSIS
(Food Safety Inspection Service), your local public health department,
and call a veterinary parasitologist at the veterinary college of your
choice. The recommendations you make are extremely dangerous and
foolish. You are endangering public and animal health. No Doubt.
I have no problem with feeding home made diets. DON'T FEED RAW MEAT.
COOK IT! (WELL DONE).
This perception that wild animals are healthier than pets is BS.
(Especially claiming that wild animals don't get parasites, kidney
disease, skin infections, etc.) What a crock. The reason so little
cancer, kidney disease, etc. is not seen in wild animals is because they
don't live long enough. They become food for other animals (survival of
the fittest).
>See my previous paragraph in regards to the type of meat to feed (not
out
>of garbage cans).
Again ... talk to FSIS and find out what parasites can be found in meat
provided for human consumption.
>You'll never convince me that feeding that processed kibble will
improve
>the health and vitality of my dogs. .
I just don't advocate feeding raw meat. I couldn't care less if you buy
and/or feed kibble.
JLR
OBVC wrote:
>
> In article <MPG.dc7db5ae...@news.atlantic.net>,
> cat4...@afn.org says...
>
> >The reason "anyone in their right minds" can think that they can and
> are
> >feeding the proper balances and ratios of nutrients is because there
> are
> >several books available that tell us what to add and in what ammounts.
> >One of these such books is written by a veterinarian, Dr Richard H.
> >Pitcairn.
>
> I havn't seen any other veterinarians on this newsgroup recommending
> that book. Are there any here who would like to comment? I also havn't
> seen any veterinarians backing up the claims of those recommending raw
> meat.
>
> >And what do you have to say to people whose animals kill birds or mice?
> >animals. No problems then, and no problems now.
>
> Interesting. I see parasite infestations all the time caused by animals
> eating rodents, insects, offal, etc. I do see problems (of course, I
> see about 15-20 different animals every day...)
>
All our previous and recent cats caught mice and other rodents and never
had got worms. Not all cats will get them.
JLR
JLR
Barbara Palansky wrote:
>
> Hello,
>
> I am not a vet and do not proclaim to play one on TV either :) However
> I must beg to disagree here.
>
> I have fed my 2 mastiff bitches raw meat and people food; my first,
> since she was about 6 months old, and my second, since she was 4 months
> old. Both are thriving on this diet and have lost their "normal"
> problems... pano, allergies, ear infections, etc. The pet foods on the
> market today are not what God intended our animals to eat. Dogs don't
> cook! :) And, a dog's digestive system is much different than ours. Of
> all the years that I have been feeding raw, I have not had any problems
> with parasites or bacteria. Neither have friends of mine who have been
> doing this for 20+ years with wonderful results. My girls are happy and
> energetic, with glossy coats and wonderful temperaments. I cannot
> remember the last time they went to the vet, other than a well-pet
> checkup.
>
> There are so many hidden toxins in pet food. Most "premium" pet foods
> on the market today have "recycled" pets in them... with the flea
> collars still on.
I never heard of that. And until I get positive proof I won't believe
in it either. We also feed our dog human food, but we all wish he would
have ate commercial dog food too.
And the chemical preservatives in these foods, it is
> a wonder that our pets are still alive. Ethoxyquin is a carcinogenic
> cocktail for pets.
I've heard of some natural pet foods that don't contain certain
preservatives.
> And if you are lucky and they don't get cancer,
We've been feeding our cats commercial dry or wet cat food for as long as
I can remember, they never got cancer. Our first dog never got cancer
either (from dog food). And neither has our puppy yet.
Deerhounds
Kim Hennemen, who is a staff vet for VIN on America Online, told me that
she recently attended the Western States Vet Conf (one of the biggest in
the US), at which there was a lecture on Mountain Lions and Grizzly Bears.
The veterinarian who gave the lecture is from Canada, and he has worked on
these animals for years, including captive raised in zoos and wild animal
parks (which mimic natural environments) and research on the wild animals.
He showed photos of the teeth of 9-10 year old cougars (they know because
they were tagged at birth) in the wild that look like they just erupted
(white, no tarter, no gum irritation) as well as cougars that were kept in
game preserves...same thing. He said that it wasn't unusual to find cats
about that age in the wild. He reported no problems with impactions due
to eating bones, and any decrease in numbers in their area was due to
hunting or fluctuated with the deer/elk numbers.
I also had the great pleasure of spending some time myself with the
gentleman who runs the wolf park in Minnesota, and he said that the wolves
did not do well on cooked, proccessed foods. Until they began giving them
raw meat (which they feed on the bone), they were having serious problems,
not the least of which were reproductive.
I myself have fed my own dogs and cats....and puppies, kittens, strays,
rescues, you name it.... on a homemade, raw meat diet for over 11 years. I
have not had any of these mysterious impaction or parasite or bacterial
problems, EVER. And my dogs are regulary tested by non-holistic vets. I am
a postive addict for documentation. I have never had a postive fecal for
ANY kind of bacteria or parasite, in over 11 years. I have had no cancer,
no repro problems, no missed breedings, no dead puppies, no intestinal
problems, no serious health problems AT ALL. None, zip, nada, zero.
No unexplained illnesses, no fevers, no organ failures, nothing. If these
"hidden" parasite infections, even assuming they exist, cause absolutely
no harm whatsoever to my dogs, what pray tell is the problem? And that is
conceding that my dogs HAVE hidden parasite infestations; I have no
evidence of that.
The dogs I find with extensive parasite loads are the "commercial food"
dogs. They are the ones with worms, fleas, heartworm, giardia, and
coccidiosis, not my raw meat dogs.
The simple presence of parasites does not cause harm. Parasites are part
of nature's system of balances. Genetically healthy animals with a few
parasites can, as long as there is a sufficient and appropriately
nutritious food supply and adequate space, easily handle a certain number
of parasites, and other kinds of pathogens. We don't need some kind of
STERILE system to be healthy! Our bodies, when adequately nourished, will
keep those pathogens which they evolved in the presence of in check... be
they parasites, bacteria, or viruses.
In the ABSENCE of adequate nutrition, we get an increase in parasite load.
This is all part of the weeding out process which results in the strongest
of the species surviving. Reproduction falls off in the face of
nutritional inadequacy, parasites and other pathogens begin to kill off
the weaker members of the species, as do other predatory animals. Those
who are less troubled by parasites, or who are better at feeding
themselves, survive to reproduce.
This is why we know the wolf does best on the diet upon which the species
evolved: because those members of the species who did well on that diet
are the only ones whose genes got passed on.
If you are aware of any research that shows that dogs on a processed foods
diet do better, live longer, have less health problems, have better rates
of reproduction, or anything of that nature, than dogs being fed the
aboriginal diet of the wolf, I'm ready to hear about it. Until then, I
think I'll take the safe road, and stick with evolution.
If you are aware of any reputable science which shows we know all there is
to know about nutrition, about HUMANS let alone our companion animals,
I'll listen to why processed commercial diets, or cooked foods, are
superior to the diet of the wolf in the wild.
If you are aware of ANY way in which the genes of dogs and of wolves can
be distinguished one from the other by science, I might begin to believe
they have totally diffferent nutritional needs.
Cooked food is better? Commercial food is better? Processed diets are
better? PROVE IT.
Christie Keith
Caber Feidh Scottish Deerhounds
Holistic Husbandry since 1986
http://members.aol.com/Deerhounds/deerhounds.html
"It is one of the miracles of science and hygiene that the germs that used
to be in our food have been replaced by poisons." -Wendell Berry
Darlene E. Hernandez
Andrea Madeley wrote:
>
> > why, oh why, do people insist that the enzymes found in raw meat are
> somehow
> > "better" than the same enzymes found in cooked meat which are more
> accessible
> > to the dog?
> >
> > Michelle R. Lewis, LVT
>
> Michelle,
>
> There are many different types of enzymes in raw food and these enzymes and
> antioxidants are destroyed once they are heated over 70 degrees C. These
> enzymes are what make a raw apple or carrot shrivel up and a piece of raw
> meat decay...they are naturally occurring and they are of great benefit to
> the crosslinking process (premature aging).
>
written by an Australian Veterinarian titled, "Give Your Dog a Bone".
There are some people in the show dog world who are starting to follow
the feeding practices outlined in this book. I haven't read it yet, but
basically he is advocating doing everying contrary to standard American
practices, including feeding raw meat and bones.
Knowing dogs who have died from ingesting cooked bones and all of the
parasites that can live in meat processed at American slaughterhouses I
don't know if I will try any of his methods, but I want to at least read
what he is advocating and the reasons behind it. I currently give my
dogs cooked venision and elk (marinated in garlic and teriyaki sauce -
they love it.
Can blood tests or fecal samples be taken to ensure that dogs are not
being exposed to parasites or receiving any other harmful affects from
being fed raw meat? How often should it be done?
Darlene Hernandez
Landmark Tervuren
G. Gerald Barr
You exhibit the same arrogant condescending attitude as many medical
doctors who refuse to admit that diet can and does have an effect on their
human patients.
I can see my dogs become sick and develop chronic colitis. I can see an 80
lb. dog drop to 60 lbs. I can give the dog more and more antibiotics. I
can feed the dog the commercial dog food recommended by a DVM. I can
believe the scientific research of the pet food companies who try to
convince us that Ethoxyquin, BHT, byproducts, meal, etc. are nutritious.
OR
I can read and understand the list of ingredients on a bag of commercial
dog food. I can feed the dog a totally natural diet where I can control
each of the ingredients. I can watch the dog recover her health and regain
her weight. I can search out and find a DVM who agrees with and is
supportive of these ideas. I can believe my eyes when I see a healthy dog.
Which of the foregoing do you think I did?
OBVC <****OB...@aol.com****> wrote in article
<5jqsho$3sh$1...@news.structured.net>...
> In article <335FDB...@sk.sympatico.ca>, dtr...@sk.sympatico.ca
> says...
>
> >
> >Yes - let's discuss what they DO get from kibble:
> >
> >I'll start my list:
> >- tartar covered teeth
> >- skin problems
> >- yeasty ears
> >- kidney failures
> >- FUS in cats
> >- brittle, dry coats
> >- immune problems
> >- allergies
> >- bloat
> >- hot spots
> >
>
> So all these problems never existed before kibble was invented? I find
> that very hard to believe and I am sure you will find it even harder to
> prove.
>
> I find it amazing that people want to blame every health problem on
> food. I suppose corns and bunions in humans come from eating pizza....
> You would probably get along great with the naturopath who claimed AIDS
> was an autoimmune disease. (oh sorry... you would say it was a
> nutritional disorder.)
>
Nan Korman
OBVC writes:
<<This perception that wild animals are healthier than pets is BS.
(Especially claiming that wild animals don't get parasites, kidney
disease, skin infections, etc.) What a crock. The reason so little
cancer, kidney disease, etc. is not seen in wild animals is because they
don't live long enough. They become food for other animals (survival of
the fittest).>>
I must have missed the post claiming wild animals were healthier than
pets. Could you copy me on it? Basing feeding requirements on the
*ideal* natural diet is a whole lot different. And if the wild animals
don't live long enough to contract the cancers and other diseases you
mention, couldn't this have something to do with the erratic and unsure
supply of their food, not the content? Certainly most well cared for
pets, including those forunate enough to have raw, natural diets, aren't
subjected to days without food and then allowed to eat what may not be the
best quality when they do find some like a wild animal.
Nancy
NanK...@aol.com
Nancy
NanK...@aol.com
"One of the greatest labor-saving inventions of today is tomorrow."
--- Vincent T. Foss
fishhead
Wow, this blows me away! I hardly have time to cook for myself and my
husband - where do you guys find the time to make up raw meat,veggie & herb
dinners for your dogs? If there is reincarnation I want to come back as a
dog!~~~~ Doglady
JLR <llo...@ldd.net> wrote in article <336139...@ldd.net>...
> Barbara Palansky wrote:
> >
> > Hello,
> >
> > I have fed my 2 mastiff bitches raw meat and people food; my first,
> > since she was about 6 months old, and my second, since she was 4 months
> > old. Both are thriving on this diet and have lost their "normal"
> > problems... pano, allergies, ear infections, etc. The pet foods on the
> > market today are not what God intended our animals to eat. Dogs don't
> > cook! :) And, a dog's digestive system is much different than ours.
> > much nutrition training they got in school, and in
> > supplemental training. Then ask them who taught the course and where
> > the textbooks came from. It is food for thought.
> >
> > :).. .. | Barbara A
fishhead
Excuse me but how can a dog die from chewing/eating on a cooked or raw
bone? I have done this for 40 years and numberless dogs and have never had
a fatality! I use beef joint bones and pork bones - never had a problem.
Explain please these bone deaths!!!! Doglady
Darlene E. Hernandez <darlene_e...@ccm.fm.intel.com> wrote in
article <33610D...@ccm.fm.intel.com>...
hillary gorman
In <01bc521b$061d2820$149a81cd@default>,
fishhead <fish...@hotcc.com> wrote:
*Excuse me but how can a dog die from chewing/eating on a cooked or raw
*bone? I have done this for 40 years and numberless dogs and have never had
*a fatality! I use beef joint bones and pork bones - never had a problem.
* Explain please these bone deaths!!!! Doglady
Well, I've seen numerous complications of bone ingestion.
I've seen dogs with severely lacerated esophagus secondary to broken
chicken bones. I've seen dogs with intestinal obstruction and necrosis
from large pieces of bone getting stuck in there. I've seen dogs with
perforated intestines from large sharp pieces of bone getting in there.
Yes, I've also seen dogs eat bones with no problems.
My dog wally gets "fresh frozen" raw bones from the butcher - marrow
filled, large bones, these are. Wally can NOT break them - chews on them
for a few hours, supervised, and then we take them away. He loves them, so
I figure the benefits outweigh the risk in this controlled situation. But
I'm not unaware of the problems that could occur if, say, he somehow did
break off a chunk of bone....
--
hillary gorman......................................hillary@netaxs.com
If you need help, contact <sup...@netaxs.com>
"So that's 2 T-1s and a newsfeed....would you like clues with that?"
Net Access...we got the clues, we got the funk, we got the bandwidth!
MW Gunnar
fishhead wrote:
>
> Excuse me but how can a dog die from chewing/eating on a cooked or raw
> bone? I have done this for 40 years and numberless dogs and have never had
> a fatality! I use beef joint bones and pork bones - never had a problem.
> Explain please these bone deaths!!!! Doglady
Excuse me, Doglady, as I steal a couple from The Santa Clause, staring
Tim Allen.
"Have you ever seen a million dollars?"
"No"
"Just because you haven't seen it doesn't mean it doesn't exist"
Joint bones (aka: knuckle bones) from beef cattle are the safest form of
bones to eat (just get 'em at your butcher's) but that doesn't mean they
can't be harmful. Pork bones are dangerous because they splinter and can
become a penetrating foreign body within the GI tract. Same with
chicken, turkey, and lamb bones.
Though they make a good treat, and most dogs get by without harm or
"fowl", I've had to remove several as obstructive foreign bodies at the
stomach's pylorus and the ileal-cecal junction. One case, in which the
owner protested (despite qualifying radiographs) "bones are not harmful,
I don't believe you" turned down the recommendation for surgery and
brought back a dead dog two days later blaming it all on who?... You
guessed it, the veterinarian.
They can be harmful and dog owners should be aware of this. If your dog
eats bones (and I'm not saying they shouldn't) be aware and alert if
your pooch starts to have problems such as vomiting and/or bloody stool.
You wanna be safe... don't give bones. Of course, my dog loves them but
he chews on it when I am around and I scoop up any large fragments he
breaks off before he can eat it.
Be aware of the facts... accept the possibilities... and you are armed
to deal with most any situation.
MWG, DVM
Andrea Madeley
> Parasites aside you cannot possibly make a better food than one of the
> better companies because you have no way to determine what the nutrient
> levels are in the raw ingredients you use.
This sounds so ridiculous it belongs in my book of "Jokes".
You can not possibly make a better food than who?????? Is this really what
I am reading?
Let us look and compare some ingredients shall we?
Meat: The most common source of meat for pet food is the by-product of the
human waste industry. They use all of the parts that CAN'T be used for
human consumption. They do not use the muscle meat as it is too expensive -
they do not use the disease free organ meats as this is still in demand by
the human industry. So...you can take away all the good stuff and what's
left goes into pet food.
Meat via a natural diet is purchased from the human outlets but are
generally the less in demand cuts so are cheaper. There is more muscle
meat, no cysts and the processing is in line with the standards fit for
human consumption. I would suggest that this is better - wouldn't you?
Ditto for the grains, meals and fats used in pet food. It's the human waste
(often moldy) and the meat, bone meal and fats from the rendering plants is
a mix of all and sundry - even other dogs and cats. Gives a whole new
meaning to Mad Cow Disease doesn't it?
Pet foods add synthetic vitamins to make up for the poor level that is left
in their food after processing.
Now - a natural diet would consist of fresh raw meat, bones, vegetables,
wheatgerm, eggs, yogurt, cottage cheese, bran, semolina, brewers yeast,
kelp.... All natural and all a higher quality protein, Vitamin A, B's, C,
D, E, K, and all the minerals......all of them.
I am afraid that you have been brainwashed if you believe that your pet
food is a perfect balance for your dog. The truth is that all dogs, like
all people, require different levels of nutrients at different times. A
stressed dog requires different levels of nutrients than one that is not -
your balanced diet does not allow for this. When your balanced diet doesn't
allow for this - guess what? Nutrient excesses occur.
Nutrient excesses are as harmful as deficiencies. The problem with your
perfect kibble diet is that you keep dumping these nutrients on your dogs
system even after he has excess amounts in his system- and then creating a
larger problem for the dog. At least with a natural diet - since we don't
feed all of the nutrients at the same time everyday we avoid this. You
actually don't need to balance your dog's diet everyday - it can be
balanced over a period of about a week and this is actually preferred
anyway. All you need is a basic knowledge of the canines dietary needs -
not an exact science at all....it's just that this is the only way these
pet foods can be sold - so they like to tell us that this is how it has to
be...and that is BS.
Vick
Okay-
I for one think that we've all tried to score our respective points and
lost sight of the common goal- healthy animals.
OBVC, my guess is that, in light of the forum, your big concern is
people not bothering to develop the whole picture for themselves, am I
right? I worry about posting anything nutrition-related because it can
easily be taken out of context. If people do not bother to do their own
research, you're right, they will do more harm than good.
I would like to request that you post what your views on feeding
home-made are. I noticed that you mentioned you had nothing against a
home-made diet, so I, for one, am curious to see what you recommend.
This is not a flame, nor a trick. I am genuinely curious.
I think that MOST prepared foods are bad news, and would like to see
what your views are. What we need is a discussion for the benefit of our
best friends, not the petty little "take that" war, which I was helping
to foster.
What do you say to a DISCUSSION on the benefits of home-cooked? I'll
leave out my raw meat if you leave out your bag of Hill's.......
ChattyCathy
I think you are 'all' right.
I have 2 cats and 2 dogs. I feed them commercial food (one of the
premium foods) and give them cooked/raw 'human' food. I buy 'stew meat'
for my cats mainly, but the dogs like it also , so they get some. One of
my cats was getting 'hairballs' real bad, I tried all the products on
the market, talked to my vet and nothing really worked. One day it
occured to me that none of the 'barn' cats I had as a child ever had
hairballs. Their main diet was rats, mice, birds, snakes--yes you
guessed it "raw meat". Since I have been feeding the raw meat to them,at
least one pie plate per day, the hairball problem has almost gone away.
Her coat is thick, silky,and glossy, she is much more active and overall
in better health. She still likes her commercial food, and gets it.
The dogs get the raw meat everytime I give it to the cats, 3 or 4 chunks
each, and love it. They now tell when it is time to feed it to the cat.
They also get dry and canned commercial food, human table scraps,
vitamins, smoked pig ears,large milk bones,bonz-bones, candy, ice cream,
lettuce,tomatoes, cantaloupe,bananas, peaches, berries, marshmallows,
speghetti, chili, pot roast, steak, hamburger.
The point is they are both healthy, their eyes are clear, skin is clear
and coats are shiney. Both are very active, their yearly check-up is
always good and they are happy.
I believe the diet has to be taylored to the individual animal, what is
good for one is not necessarily good for another. You must experiment
and find what works for each.
This is my two cents
Cathy
Andrea Madeley
> I have not said anything in this particular thread discouraging
> home-made diets. I have a problem with people feeding (or recommending)
> raw meat.
> --
> Ocean Beach Veterinary Hospital
And I will put this to you here and now.
If this feeding of raw meat is so very dangerous - please explain to us all
why here in a country like mine, Australia, there is no massive line up at
the Vet's office with dogs dying of parasite infestation or bacterial
poisoning - or any of the other things you insist will happen if you feed a
dog raw meat.
Seriously, I can't even begin to understand your comments when I KNOW that
we are enjoying great health with raw meat diets. And in all honesty - when
I talk to people in the dog world here about the American infatuation with
raw meat and bones ... I get this blank look ... like they think I'm
kidding!
I thought it may have been a case of Australian meat VS USA meat quality. I
manufacture sterilizing equipment for the meat processing industry here and
after many discussions with the Inspectors - your regulations are actually
more stringent than ours. So - we are amused by all of this.
So..I am confused as to why you take such a hard stance. Yes...it can
happen that a small percentage of dogs may become affected by a parasite
(our biggest problem is Hydatid - Echinococcus granulosus) and this is
almost exclusive to the rural areas where the farmers feed the infected raw
offal to their working dogs. It is not so much the affect of the parasite
to the dogs that concerns the Health Board but the fact that we can catch
the parasite from our dogs.
It's quite simple. We buy our lamb, kangaroo, pork cuts from our butcher.
This meat is passed inspection and is classed fit for human consumption -
Hydatid free. Alternatively, it can be stored in the deep freeze for 7 - 10
days which will kill the parasite. We also worm our dogs.
Andrea Madeley
> I havn't seen any other veterinarians on this newsgroup recommending
> that book. Are there any here who would like to comment? I also havn't
> seen any veterinarians backing up the claims of those recommending raw
> meat.
> --
> Ocean Beach Veterinary Hospital
Well, here's an idea for you.
Read the book (and there are others to be read while you are at it) and
then form an opinion based on what you have read. Pitcairn has many
interesting points to offer - as does Dr. Ian Billinghurst...
Another idea you might like to entertain is at least listen to what you are
hearing from those that are feeding these raw diets (and there is a lot
more to it than raw meat) and perhaps take it in as information. I still
like the idea that a Vet can actually listen to people - and perhaps form
their opinions based on their experiences than just the opinions of those
so called research scientists that are employed by the multi national pet
food companies.
Debbie Tripp
For the benefit of those individuals who may just have started reading
this thread I would like to give a word of advise on diets.
It is my opinion that just as feeding the same commercial kibble, day in
day out for years can be hazardous to your pets health, feeding an ill
prepared homemade diet can be just as disasterous. No one should embark
upon feeding their dog their own diet without doing some kind of reading
on the subject.
For those of you, who would like more information on home-made diets, the
following books offer up many recipes and also will address many of the
concerns and questions that are asked in regards to feeding your own
animals.
Many of these books are available at health foods stores.
"Give Your Dog a Bone" by Ian Billinghurst, DVM ISBN 0-646-16028-1
"Dr. Pitcairn's Complete Guide to Natural Health for Dogs & Cats" by
Richard Pitcairn, DVM, PHd and Susan Hubble Pitcairn ISBN: 0-87857-395-X
"The Complete Herbal Handbook for the Dog & Cat" by Juilette de Bairacli
Levy ISBN: 0-571-16115-4
"The Natural Remedy Book for Dogs & Cats" by Diane Stein ISBN:
0-89594-686-6
Feeding your own animals is not a great mystery. It's not a big secret
and it is not difficult. If you believe that only a commercial pet food
manufacturer has the knowledge to formulate a diet for our pets and that
we average humans couldn't possibly do it, then the manufacturer's
advertising dollars have been well spent indeed. We are bombarded with
such advertising every day on tv ads, magazines, billboards - you name
it. All telling us....it's too difficult for you average humans, let us
professionals do it.
If after reading these books you still do not agree that you could
possible feed your own animals on your own, then so be it. You've
then made the decision yourself and I will respect you for it. In any
case, the books make for good reading and you just might learn a few
things along the way.
Best regards and hopes for healthier pets
Debbie
--
Debbie Tripp - Saskatoon, Saskatchewan Canada.
Home of Kimberlite Bernese
Hunka Hunka Berner Love
MW Gunnar
Vick wrote:
> What do you say to a DISCUSSION on the benefits of home-cooked? I'll
> leave out my raw meat if you leave out your bag of Hill's.......
Hey Vick,
I'll jump in here with my own $.02 if you don't mind.
I come from the school of thought that a well balanced, home-made diet
is just as good as any other (just a bit more expensive). There are
ample books out there by veterinary nutritionists to guide folks in the
creation of healthy diets and specific recipes are too numerous to
mention.
Now my editorial... Hills' diets are one of the two best in the world
(Eukanuba being the other). Qualifications: The reason they are more
expensive than other common diets are because they keep the ingredient
list constant; they do not alter the diet components based on what's
currently the lowest cost ingredient on the market. Each bag has exactly
the same make-up as the last and to make up for fluxuating prices on the
market exchange for these ingredients the price is a bit higher to cover
the ebb and flow of Wall Street. This translates to a steady diet for
your pet, if this is what you're looking for.
Hills and Eukanuba are also the most digestable diets available. This
means for each volume of food consumed, there is less coming out the
scooter into your yard. This also means you feed a smaller volume than
other diets available (ie: you get more feedings from a forty pound bag
of Hills than a forty pounder of Purina). In the ned, penny for penny,
you end up paying the same (or nearly the same) per year in dog food for
Hills/Eukanuba as you would for Purina/Alpo/Kal Kan.
The long shot of it... Feeding home-made diets is healthy if done
properly and feeding any brand name food is also a good idea.
Personally, my dog will always be munching Hills and Eukanuba but that's
a choice I made for my pet based on my own beliefs and the information
available.
I think everyone agrees; a healthy diet is a healthy diet...and they
don't all have to come out of the same bag.
MWG, DVM
MW Gunnar
> --
> Andrea Madeley
> Aldinga Beach / South Australia
Hey Andrea,
If you could, please try to keep your voice down. There are a lot of
opinions in the world and they are based on beliefs, not fact. If you
disagree with an opinion posted, by all means, post a rebuttal but try
to keep the flame thrower in the closet.
That said, I would be interested in knowing your sources for the wisdom
you share regarding the make of pet diets coming from sources considered
unconsumable by humans, moldy, etc...
This is not the situation in the USA and in fact it is illegal to
knowingly subscribe to the recipe you describe above.
MWG, DVM
Raelene Langfield
Our dog, Goldie (long since died of old age) was once fed cooked beef
bones, with a couple of other dogs. The other dogs ate them regularly,
and were fine. Unfortunately, Goldie got one caught in her throat. The
bone scarred her throat on the way down, opening up the tissue.
The vet had to stitch it all back up, and I remember the bill was awful.
Bones are wonderful for dogs, but try to stick to the really big ones.
Have your butcher cut them in half length ways, so your dog can chew out
the marrow. Serve them fresh and raw....
doggy heaven!
Raelene from Melbourne
Bond
>
> Well, here's an idea for you.
>
> Read the book (and there are others to be read while you are at it) and
> then form an opinion based on what you have read. Pitcairn has many
> interesting points to offer - as does Dr. Ian Billinghurst...
>
> Another idea you might like to entertain is at least listen to what you are
> hearing from those that are feeding these raw diets (and there is a lot
> more to it than raw meat) and perhaps take it in as information. I still
> like the idea that a Vet can actually listen to people - and perhaps form
> their opinions based on their experiences than just the opinions of those
> so called research scientists that are employed by the multi national pet
> food companies.
>
> --
> Andrea Madeley
> Aldinga Beach / South Australia
Andrea, please cool down. Some people use prepared petfoods with no
problem, some make up their own foods, some use a combination of both.
If it obviously works for them, who are you to bludgeon them into full
acceptance of the "raw is best fraternity"?
Provide your views by all means but please respect the views of others.
Bondy