PAY vet for DEAD animal???
Chris & Lori
need to read this....
Of course you have to pay when you go to the vet, even if the pateint dies.
It is a business. The medicines, the treatments and the vets time are all
worth money. Do you think that just because they work on animals that they
don't have to pay their bills???? That the insurance company and the
electric company donate their services so that they can treat your animals
for free???? Honestly, if you took your car to the garage and they worked on
it for hours and realized that they would not be able to make it run again-
ever- would you stiff them??? If an animal dies during surgery, an elective
routine surgery, the vet may feel bad and cut the price, but they are still
out all the anesthetics, time and many times life saving (and expensive)
drugs that they used to try to save your animal. It is usually not the vets
fault that the dog dies, either. Usually, it is some unseen abnormality in
the dogs system that causes it to not be able to handle the drug- something
that no one could have possibly seen coming- even with a full blood work up
before surgery. Some vets will absorb that cost and beyond to find out why
the animal died-but they don't have to!
The first animal that I had die during surgery gave me nightmares for weeks
because I wondered if there had been any thing I could have done. It was a
6 month old healthy active male pomeranian in for elective castration. He
went through surgery but did not wake up. I did CPR for 5 minutes until I
finally gave up and realized he was not coming back. On post mortem exam, we
found that he had one kidney that was 1/3 size of a normal kidney and that
he couldn't handle the anesthetic. We felt terrible and went without pay for
tht one, but it wasn't our fault. Legally, we were obligated to that money.
Legally, when you bring your pet to the vet and agree to treatment , you are
entering a verbal contract with the veterinarian for that animals care. You
don't have to sign all the forms and waivers that you do in human medicine
because the malpractice laws in vet medicine are not yet what they are in
human medicine- but it is getting there. They don't quote you a price
because it is really impossible to be able to tell what all will be
involved- they gave give you a ballpark figure but that will change with any
number of circumstances. It isn't as easy as getting your brakes changed.
Hope this helps you realize the other side of the story. We're really sad
when your dog dies, but we need to eat too.Vets are not rich people and
their staff members are the most underpaid of all medical professionals.
Lori LVT
Doggy38701 <doggy...@aol.com> wrote in message
<19990129193100...@ng18.aol.com>...
> I am just wondering what is customary. If I bring in my dog with an
illness,
> and it dies, am I still financially responsible? My vet does not make me
sign
> any forms, or anything. As a matter of fact, he nor his receptionist won't
tell
> me a price until it is all done or I ask. So, if I bring in my dog, and he
> dies, should I pay?? Does it matter what I bring him in for, say neutering
and
> he dies, versus parvo???
jbexp
that would harm him? In a case like the one described obviousley the cat had an
unfortunate reaction to the sedative. This does not relieve the owner of financial
responsibility.
It's interesting to read the posts of those who seem to not understand the concept
of responsibility.
J
"Ken M." wrote:
> x-no-archive:yes
>
> Chris & Lori wrote:
> >
> > This is for 'doggy...@aol.com'- my mail to you didn't go through but you
> > need to read this....
> >
> > Of course you have to pay when you go to the vet, even if the pateint dies.
>
> Says who? That would depend on the circumstances. I know a friend who
> took his cat to the Vet for a "flea dip" and the doctor gave the cat
> some type of shot/IV to calm him down. The cat went to sleep and never
> woke up. And my friend did *not* pat that Vet, and either would anyone
> with an IQ over 90.
>
> > It is a business. The medicines, the treatments and the vets time are all
> > worth money. Do you think that just because they work on animals that they
> > don't have to pay their bills???? That the insurance company and the
> > electric company donate their services so that they can treat your animals
> > for free???? Honestly, if you took your car to the garage and they worked on
> > it for hours and realized that they would not be able to make it run again-
> > ever- would you stiff them???
>
> What? If I took my car to a shop and they couldn't get it running
> properly I would would pay them a damned cent. Why should I? I brought
> the car to be fixed -- not to rape my wallet.
> The Vet techs are underpaid, I'll agree to that much. But if you could
> see some of the 400,000 homes that DC area Vets live in, you'd be
> surprised.
>
> (ken)
>
> --
> <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>
> See some sample photos taken with my Olympus digital camera at:
> http://www.theupperdeck.com/digitcam/
>
> <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>
>
> See my Chihuahua's personal webpage at:
> http://www.dogchow.com/pages/chihuahua
Dr Kyla
>
> x-no-archive:yes
>
> Chris & Lori wrote:
> >
> > This is for 'doggy...@aol.com'- my mail to you didn't go through but you
> > need to read this....
> >
> > Of course you have to pay when you go to the vet, even if the pateint dies.
>
> Says who? That would depend on the circumstances. I know a friend who
> took his cat to the Vet for a "flea dip" and the doctor gave the cat
> some type of shot/IV to calm him down. The cat went to sleep and never
> woke up. And my friend did *not* pat that Vet, and either would anyone
> with an IQ over 90.
One of my routine surgery patients - a beautiful blue, young, healthy
appearing cat - had a neuter - no complications, and never woke up. I
didn't get any response at all from my CPR attempts. It was my 3rd
anesthetic death in 12 years. He had a cardiomyopathy that was
diagnosed on necropsy.
I had never met the owner, but she was referred by a good client.
Imagine how awful it was to call her with this kind of bad news.
But to the point: she showed up at my hospital at 5pm, I asked her if
she wanted to see him, but she said no, she was just there to pay the
bill. I didn't charge her, and wrote it off as good client relations.
On the mechanic issue, if a mechanic checks your car out and finds that
the problems are unfixable (and the car in effect dies) you still have
to pay for the work done to ascertain the extent of the damage. And if
you authorized parts replacement to try and make it work, but it still
fails - you still ordered the work done.
I had a great cat with a large intestinal tumor. We removed it and
reattached the intestines. The type of cancer had a very poor prognosis
and the cat was weak, emaciated, and anemic when brought in. I was very
honest about the chances for survival, but they wanted to try
everything. At the end of a week, the cat took a serious turn for the
worse and I strongly suggested euthanasia, which they finally agreed
to.
They went home with a dead cat and a receipt for $2,200.00 CDN (about
$1,400.00 US). That included x-rays, surgery, intensive care, tons of
lab work, IV fluids, multiple injections daily, biopsy, blood
transfusion, etc. I also bumped several surgeries and appointments to
spend more time with their cat, and went back into the hospital every
night for a week to check on her.
Not once have they complained about the bill. They know I did
everything possible for their animal and they appreciate it.
> The Vet techs are underpaid, I'll agree to that much. But if you could
> see some of the 400,000 homes that DC area Vets live in, you'd be
> surprised.
>
> (ken)
Maybe their spouses are investment bankers.
Kyla, DVM
ar...@freenet.buffalo.edu
I can fully understand that things happen for no reason and the vet should
get paid and shouldn't be held responsible if he/she did all they could.
My problem comes because I had a dog 9yrs old who was bleeding internally
after tests it was found he had growth on or near his spleen. The vet said
probably cancer. I spent over $300 for the diagnosis. There was no
guarentee that if he operated the dog would even live through the
operation not to mention if he did what would his quality of life be.
Estimate for operation with no guarentee $700.00. If I knew he would have
been a happy dog feeling well i would have paid any price, not knowing
he'd even come off the table with the vet saying if it's spread too far he
would put him down right away I just couldn't do it.
This vet actually made me feel bad for making what was the hardest
decision I ever had to make. That bothers me. He wouldn't put himself on
the line in any way but had the nerve to make me feel like a monster. He
had no knowledge of my financial situation, not that I would make my final
decision based solely on $$$ but I am sure there are plenty of people who
have to. People need compassion at these times they don't need to be
judged.
> x-no-archive:yes
>
> Chris & Lori wrote:
> >
> > This is for 'doggy...@aol.com'- my mail to you didn't go through but you
> > need to read this....
> >
> > Of course you have to pay when you go to the vet, even if the pateint dies.
>
> Says who? That would depend on the circumstances. I know a friend who
> took his cat to the Vet for a "flea dip" and the doctor gave the cat
> some type of shot/IV to calm him down. The cat went to sleep and never
> woke up. And my friend did *not* pat that Vet, and either would anyone
> with an IQ over 90.
>
>
> The Vet techs are underpaid, I'll agree to that much. But if you could
> see some of the 400,000 homes that DC area Vets live in, you'd be
> surprised.
>
> (ken)
>
>
rr...@lanminds.com
>Do you actually believe that the vet would intentionally give a pet a medicine
>that would harm him? In a case like the one described obviousley the cat had an
>unfortunate reaction to the sedative. This does not relieve the owner of financial
>responsibility.
>It's interesting to read the posts of those who seem to not understand the concept
>of responsibility.
>J
>
The only time I would disagree with the having to pay in this
situation is if I did not know about and authorize the sedative. If I
said it was ok, then obviously I owe them a certain financial
responsibility.
Then again, one thing that pet owners might not do is ask about the
risks/side effects/complications of drugs and procedures being done.
For example, if the vet comes out and says "We want to give your cat a
sedative so that it is calmer while being bathed".. _I_ know about the
dangers of sedatives and can ask some questions and make a reasonably
informed decision. But I don't know about other pet owners. Do they
know that there are dangers associated with this, or do they assume
that since the vet wants to do it, it must be ok? Do they ask
questions, and consider other alternatives?
Rebecca
Mike Graham
>This vet actually made me feel bad for making what was the hardest
>decision I ever had to make. That bothers me. He wouldn't put himself on
>the line in any way but had the nerve to make me feel like a monster. He
>had no knowledge of my financial situation, not that I would make my final
>decision based solely on $$$ but I am sure there are plenty of people who
>have to. People need compassion at these times they don't need to be
>judged.
Keep in mind that the vet is there on *your* dime. You're paying
for the visit. In that situation they are there to serve *you*.
Their opinion of you is completely immaterial. You make up your
mind, and you tell them which option you are choosing, and that's it.
If they start giving you a hard time, then tell them so, and they
*should* back down. It's not up to them to tell you whether you can
afford surgery for your dog, they are there to give you the *option*
of surgery.
Mike Graham, mike at headwaters dot com
Not a vet.
Raiser of horses, chickens, peacocks, turkeys, ducks,
geese, dogs and a goat.
Also raising a large number of cats, and a diminishing
number of mice.
MV Tanning
>it for hours and realized that they would not be able to make it run again-
>ever- would you stiff them???
If any mechanic took hours and then told me they wouldn't be able to fix it -
ever, You are damn right I would stiff em. I would pay the vet though. I wont
pay $400.00 just to know my auto is unfixable.
MV Tanning
>sedative so that it is calmer while being bathed"..
I don't think many people realize that there are potential risks. I wouldn't
think twice if my vet told me that. But I would appreciate them letting me know
that the "sedative" is an anethestic and it has been known to kill animals if
the animal is allergic, unstable, etc... Even if he told me that and then said
the risk is almost nonexistant, at least I would have been informed and could
habndle it better had it happened.
MV Tanning
>honest about the chances for survival, but they wanted to try
>everything. At the end of a week, the cat took a serious turn for the
>worse and I strongly suggested euthanasia, which they finally agreed
>to.
>They went home with a dead cat and a receipt for $2,200.00 CDN (about
>$1,400.00 US). That included x-rays, surgery, intensive care, tons of
>lab work, IV fluids, multiple injections daily, biopsy, blood
>transfusion, etc. I also bumped several surgeries and appointments to
>spend more time with their cat, and went back into the hospital every
>night for a week to check on her.
>
>Not once have they complained about the bill. They know I did
>everything possible for their animal and they appreciate it.
You were honest and upfront though, you warned them that the possibility for
survival was low.
Lucinda Hensley
>One of my routine surgery patients - a beautiful blue, young, healthy
>appearing cat - had a neuter - no complications, and never woke up. I
>didn't get any response at all from my CPR attempts. It was my 3rd
>anesthetic death in 12 years. He had a cardiomyopathy that was
>diagnosed on necropsy.
I had a similar thing happen with one of our cats. She was a 2 1/2yo
apparently healthy spayed female and had not had any anesthesia
problems when she was spayed. She died from anesthesia during a
minor (but necessary) surgical procedure. This was my then 6 yo
son's cat and we were devastated, but in some ways I felt sorrier
for the vet who had to call me at work and break the news. I didn't
blame her for the cat's death, sometimes bad things just happen.
When I went to pick up the cat (my son wanted to bury her) the vet
was in surgery. When I asked what I owed I was told they would send
me the bill. They never did. In fact what I got (in addition to
a card from the vet) was a letter telling me the clinic had made a
donation to the NC vet school in memory of our cat. I thought it
was a wonderful gesture. Of course I had been and continue to be
a client of this vet practice but I have a feeling they'd have
treated me the same even if I was a new client.
Cindy Hensley
hen...@med.unc.edu
Elaine Gallant
Ken M. wrote in message <36B689...@ix.netcom.com>...
>What? If I took my car to a shop and they couldn't get it running
>properly I would would pay them a damned cent. Why should I? I brought
>the car to be fixed -- not to rape my wallet.
Ha ha...something like that happened to me before. Sent the car in for
trannie work. Went to pick up the car and they said- oh, we couldn't fix
your reverse gear, and lost first gear trying. Plus you owe us a hundred
dollars. Needless to say, I DIDN'T pay them.
Oh well... cars are not living things. You can get a gaurantee on a
machine, but not on living things. No promises there.
Bob Avery H.......
> <19990129193100...@ng18.aol.com>...
> > I am just wondering what is customary. If I bring in my dog with an
> illness,
> > and it dies, am I still financially responsible? My vet does not make me
> sign
> > any forms, or anything. As a matter of fact, he nor his receptionist won't
> tell
> > me a price until it is all done or I ask. So, if I bring in my dog, and he
> > dies, should I pay?? Does it matter what I bring him in for, say neutering
> and
> > he dies, versus parvo???
Hi Doggy,
I am saddened by your loss. In our household, pets are family.
However, I am sure that your vet used all reasonable precautions in
treating your pet, and was distrssed by its demise.
Any surgery has an associated risk. I had more of them last year than I
care to remember. The most annoying part was having to sign those papers
full of dreadful disclaimers, should anything go wrong. I am equally
concerned for the welfare of my cats, and am fortunate that we have a
wonderful and competent veterinary doctor, albeit he is only human.
A medical service provider expends valuable resources in treating a
patient, and is entitled to compensation regardless of the outcome. If
the provider is negiligent, then that is a matter for a Court of Law.
--
Cheers,
BobH
"Chicken Little only has to be right once."
Diana Brodman Summers
my .02 cents. I'm not a vet (wish I was), I'm an attorney (with 5 cats) who has
given advice on the same question. My answer is yes you pay the bill. If there
is some concrete evidence that the vet committed malpractice, then you can go
through the very expensive hassle of a lawsuit. However, actually proving
malpractice to a court can be difficult and time consuming, which runs up the
attorney fees. Because court fees and attorney's fees are so high, this type of
suit will probably cost 4 or 5 times more than the vet bill.
Many times what people perceive as malpractice in veterinary medicine, can be
explained by a conversation with the vet in question and/or by having another
impartial vet review the file and explain the findings to the client (which the
client will have to pay for). I suggest that when there is a question about a
procedure or bill the client should first talk with the vet before refusing to pay
or filing suit.
What can happen if a client doesn't pay the vet bill? The vet can turn over the
bill to a collection agency, or an attorney who does collections. Then the
client deals with that new person who knows nothing about the original animal
problem. Still won't pay --- a suit can be brought against the client, which can
result in a judgment. A judgment can result in a lien on property or a wage
garnishment or just a black mark on credit history that can be renewed until
resolved.
I have found that vets are some of the kindest, most humane people in the world.
Personally, I have lost 3 cats to cancer since June (2 to liver lymphosarcoma and
1 to squamous cell carcinoma of the tongue). If it wasn't for the tireless work
of my vet, my 3 kids would have had a much shorter life. He was there for each of
them and for me when I had to make that final decision. Yes, there were lots of
bills, but I was glad to pay my vet for his work. It is only fair to pay for the
service that you receive.
Diana Brodman Summers
dsum...@counsel.com
Henry
I absolutely agree with you. Pay the bill and attempt to resolve the dispute through reasonable channels. Not paying can really hurt you in the long run as explained below.
Robert Crim
Robert
===============================================================