Mystery illness in my lab/retriever!
Heidi
has been sick for a week and a half now. I took her to the vet
asap after sudden onset of vomiting and severe bloody diarrhea..
the diagnosis was unclear - blood tests came back normal. She
has been on a rice and hamburger diet since the vet visit, as
well as an antibiotic (metronidazole) and is no longer vomiting,
but still has diarrhea (not as severe, though). Anyone have any
idea what could be going on? Parvo tests are the only remaining
option the vet has said it could be, but that it is highly
improbable that this is the issue. Thanks in advance for any
suggestions/ideas!
-Heidi
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Elaine Gallant
However, poison would seem to run through her system within a few days.
You'd better get the parvo test. There's also a very highly contagious
bacterial disease going around that mimics parvo. Difference being that the
bacterial illness responds to anti-biotics.
"Heidi" <heididian...@hotmail.com.invalid> wrote in message
news:007c1ea4...@usw-ex0101-005.remarq.com...
- no@spam.com Cyndi
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Cyndi - cjm...@msn.com
Click here, not on Reply
Elaine Gallant <elaine....@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message news:AvdZ4.8397$Zm5.5...@bgtnsc06-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...
Patsy Ford
human beings and occasionally pets, very informative:
sci.med.diseases.lyme
Sheila Maher
probably suspecting Giardia or just to
combat the symptoms of diarrhea.
Did they do a fecal exam? Even though
they can come back "Neg" doesn't mean
it is not parasitic in nature...depends on the
cycle of the parasites, if eggs are present
in the fecal at the right time. You might
want to ask your vet about coccidiosis,
or campylbacteriosis ( not sure exactly
spelled right ). Also ask if the "eosyphills"
( again spelling is poor :) were elevated
which would be a good indication of parasites.
If the Mefronidazole ( or Flagyl ) is not taking
care of the diarrhea, another wormer ( broad
spectrum one like Panacur) may help.
I hope the dog didn't eat something that
may have caused any damage to the
digestive tract...in that case perhaps
an ultra sound would be in order?
Best of luck....
STEELMAHR WEIMARANERS
Sheila A. Maher
stee...@webtv.net
miss...@webtv.net ( if above is full)
Go confidently in the direction of your dreams and live the life you've
imagined...
Henry David Thoreau
ele
medications?
BTW Elaine, do you know or could you possibly get the name of
the parvo-mimic disease? Thanks :-)
Heidi
Ele, my dog was on novo-ketoprofen (a non-steroidal anti-
inflammatory) for treatment of an arthritic condition developed
from some type of autoimmune response. Although I was told that
this med could upset her stomach, she had been doing wonderfully
on it for about 6 months with no side effects or problems. At
the onset of her current illness I took her off the novo-
ketoprofen and she's been off of it since.
In response to Sheila... yes the vet suspected Giardia but
wasn't positive. They're currently doing a fecal exam and
results will be back by tomorrow night.
Patsy... interesting that you would bring up lyme disease. I'll
check out the web site you suggested. When my dog came down
with her "arthritic condition" I first suspected lyme. The vet
treating her at the time (I no longer go to him!) refused to
believe that it could be lyme disease, although I know it occurs
in my area of Alberta. It also could have been Rocky Mountain
Spotted Fever that caused it, but at this point there's no way
of knowing for sure. At the time of onset, I was way out in the
back country with my dog doing wildlife research, and it took me
2 days to get back to civilization. So by the time she had
tests done for lyme and RMSF it was too late (I guess you have
to do the tests on the day of onset for a diagnosis).
-Heidi
Elaine Gallant
No... I just heard of it recently. It's presently running through the
dogshow crowd like wildfire. Perhaps you could ask on Alt.pets.dogs.breeds.
"ele" <ele_ctN...@my-deja.com.invalid> wrote in message
news:13bf4278...@usw-ex0103-023.remarq.com...
> To the original poster, was she or is she on any other
> medications?
>
> BTW Elaine, do you know or could you possibly get the name of
> the parvo-mimic disease? Thanks :-)
>
>
>
ele
Hi Heidi,
I am glad that she was immediately taken off of the Ketoprofen!
Please tell me they did suggest this (!) or was that your own
instinct? Absolutlely!
They don't think this bloody diarrhea and vomiting could have
been NSAID related? If a dog was on any short or long-term NSAID
therapy, that would be the first thing that would come across my
mind! ( or course realizing there are other cause of bloody
diarrhea/ vomiting but with NSAID use is a BIG red flag!)
Especially considering that Ketoprofen is notorious for GI
bleeding with long-term therapy even at the low doses and/or
short-term therapy problems as well. What a strange choice of a
NSAID for long-term use! Ketoprofen may be given short-term (
although this may be avoided in lui of better choices) but a
really POOR choice for long-term therapy, to my knowledge and
anything that I have read, for both humans and dogs. None of the
Vets I worked for used this NSAID at all. Some NSAIDs have a
worse incidence of adverse effects but even ones tooted as safer
have the same types of problems, so at this point I would be
rather apprehensive about her continuing any type of NSAID
therapy. Obviously you would know when and if she went back on a
NSAID but if she is having problems related to the NSAID use,
there could be serious damage and in some cases there have been
some fatalities with adverse reactions.
Your post particular attracted me because my dog just had a very
ugly reaction to the NSAID EtoGesic very soon after beginning
that therapy. She had solid blood or blood/water projectile
diarrhea, vomiting, lethargy, increased aggression( besides her
pain issues, this also is listed as an adverse effect, so I
would believe so in her case...). Also in a matter of 4 days
between blood-work, her kidney values changed quite
significantly indicating that her kidneys were also doing
poorly, Another NSAID side effect and liver, eye problems, etc.,
are too. Good your dog had normal blood-work. Certainly a good
idea to monitor these values when on NSAIDs, regardless if any
symptoms or not.
Obviously my dog was one of those who has a very extreme
sensitivity and can not tolerate even short-term use. But even
in dogs who seem to tolerate well and especially the longer the
NSAID therapy, the more increased risk for these type of adverse
reactions. And they can happen very suddenly or gradually, in
different degrees of severity. I can't tell you how many dogs I
walked for their bathroom duties who where on long-term NSAIDS
and saw, at times, that tarry black stool ( upper GI) or
spotting of fresh blood ( large colon) with or without diarrhea,
vomiting, etc. BTW, has your dog been doing anything like
increased grass consumption? My kid was a grazer but just before
her problems, really began to chow grass with a zeal to make
herself vomit.
BTW, if your dog does have ulcerative colitis or stomach ulcers,
etc., and is lacking GI mucosa from the NSAIDs which they do,
something like Carafate for a medication would a choice
medication to help promote healing by coating the GI system and
protecting from the digestive juices. It is not like an antacid
that would neutralize or change stomach acid and antacids can
also react negatively with many medications. Carafate is
considered safe and I don't believe should cause any problems
for your dog, whatever the reason for her troubles. Just have to
make sure it wouldn't inhibit the absortion of some medications
and adjust dosing schedules to allow for this if applicable. You
might want to ask your Vet about Carafate. My dog is on Flaygl,
Carafate and Reglan ( that one helps supress vomiting) and of
course an extra-bland diet that she will be on for a while. Also
note it takes a good 6- 8 weeks for GI healing, even if symptoms
have abated. So your dog doing better but still having trouble
could make sense if this is the situation.
Sorry this post is so long but I had to put my 20 cents worth in
on this topic and NSAID possibility. Now Lyme Disease is another
whole 'nother tangent with me as I have LD and have or had a co-
infection with another TBD, Babesiosis. Yes, Lyme test are
woefully inaccurate, probably close to about a dozen different
reasons why . Also consider other co-infections like
Ehrlichiosis and Babesiosis and I don't believe there testing is
all that perfecto either. But some symptoms of those TBD's would
be possibly be things like fever, diarrhea/ bloody diarrhea,
lethargy, muscular pain, etc. Ok, I'm off to give my 2 cents ( I
promise I'll try, LOL, 2 versus 20 cents) to your response and
the original poster of another on-going thread.
One last thing in closing, I wanted to leave you this link
concerning LD and TBD's w/ pets and this info also links in to
human info ( which so much is very similar for animals too in
many ways)- a huge collection! This fella has done extensive
work and has great resources to information. He also should have
lots of info on testing inaccuracy in this collection.
Pets and Other Domesticated Animals and Lyme Disease <
http://www.geocities.com/HotSprings/Oasis/6455/animals-
links.html#pets >
Hope your girl gets well soon :-) and let us all know how things
go!
ele
ele
correctly without cutting off the last end of it ( at least on
my browser). I had to manually type in the last part of the URL
and then it worked.
Heidi
dog is having are exactly what mine had/is having... the night
before her problems started she ate a ton of grass and puked it
up overnight. The following day the tarry black diarrhea
started and that night came a combination of the black stuff as
well as almost pure blood (all red liquid - which was really
scary!). The vomiting also continued, and was clear liquid and
spots of red (bloody mucous) and I kept her away from grass.
Her whole GI tract was messed up! I stopped the ketoprofen
mainly because she was going to vomit it up anyway... my vet had
told me absolutely nothing about the negative long term effects
of this drug! Even now he hasn't mentioned anything about IT
being the possible cause of her GI problems, although THIS
explanation makes the most sense, given what you have said! Not
knowing much about NSAID therapy, and since her problem started
so suddenly, I did not think it could have been the ketoprofen
but now know better. I'm somewhat relieved to hear that GI
problems take 6-8 weeks to heal up... I was really worrying
about why the diarrhea (which is now an orangy-brown color) was
continuing. Thanks for the link to Lyme info... do you know of
any links or vet/medial literature where I can read up on keto-
and other NSAIDS? I'm going to look in to Carafate, too.
I can't tell you how much I appreciate your input, as my pooch
is like my kid and I hate seeing her ill!
-Heidi
ele
Hmmmm.. yes, seems very similar what our dogs are going through!
Your kid was/is really a mess and yes, it is very scary- my
thoughts exactly! We were worried that my dog was going to go
into shock that first day/ night from so much blood and loss of
fluids, etc., but thankfully things have only been getting
better with time, I hope the same for your dog too. You got her
off the Ketoprfen asap, thank goodness :-) Even if this isn't an
adverse NSAID reaction, don't know for sure but either way, I
would think that type of harsh on the GI medication should be
avoided with such serious on-going GI trouble.
We had that profuse fresh blood or blood/water diarrhea and
vomiting ( yellow bile and/ or white foam) the first day/ night
( although she did have some diarrhea just before this but it
looked normal then and was not profuse), then some black tarry
substance in her stool for a few days and now are having that
burnt-orange/ brown stool also but my dog now has form/ soft
form to her stool, although as of this week, if anything, she is
the opposite of diarrhea and passing a BM only every 2-3 days
sometimes. So that has got me a somewhat concerned ( in respects
to GI damage) but she is on a different diet now and the
Carafate may be contributing to this ( one of the few side
effects in a small percentage). My Vet is not real concerned
about this and I am just so relieved there is no more of that
awful profuse blood diarrhea! Scary your dog also had blood in
her vomit (!) Fresh blood or what looks like coffee grounds in
vomit is another biggie to look for with NSAID use. Were you
giving the Ketoprefen always with food? This is a standard
precaution to try and help minimize potential GI trouble but in
our case we still had our problems.
How is your dog doing in general with her out-ward appearance?
It took my dog about a week to start getting her energy and some
of her spunk back. My Vet told me to feed her several small
meals a day, like 4 or 5. Besides other reasons perhaps that I
am not aware of, I guess this is easier for her GI system to
process and I notice when she gets an emptier stomach, that is
when she starts to slink around and seems down. Also then she
goes for the grass munchies.
My Vet thinks our situation occurred because of the NSAID use, I
wonder why your Vet is not considering or has mentioned this? I
hope that I am not steering you in the wrong direction but it is
uncanny w/ the NSAID use and our similarities, so I agree with
you that it seems like a possibility with your dog, especially
after reading your last post! My Vet believes our dogs problems
to be NSAID related and we had some other abrupt NSAID-like
changes in conjunction to further define this diagnosis. ( blood-
work/ kidney values, blood and sheets of cells in urine, etc.
Has your dog also had a urinalysis? I wonder if she should even
though her blood-work was ok. It is an inexpensive test, ours
was $18 ) Of course, I have been looking into other
possibilities for these symptoms to keep an open-mind, just in
case, but the NSAID theory does add up and my dog is getting
better since the Etogesic was discontinued. As far as healing,
the 6-8 weeks is what I have come up with for info about the
acute GI ulcerations for healing. Supposedly, the sooner the
offending medication is discontinued the better and it is said
usually with good response in many cases. But then one wonders
about how much damage was done and considering there are people
out there who have chronic GI problems like ulcers, colitis,
etc., I am worried about this. Will she always have a sensitive
GI and prone to flares that we will have to do our best to keep
under control with maintenance therapy? Perhaps (?) and only
time will tell? There are so many different types of possible GI
problems, ulcers, etc., it gets pretty deep looking up
information and I only knew some basics on these different
topics before so I am learning more about this too. I will send
you today some of the links, I have collected. I am sure you
have been looking/ researching too perhaps, so between the 2 of
us, lots of info and hopefully healthy kids again!
Be in touch soon via e-mail and wish I could have responded
sooner ( work- TGISAturday!, LOL:-),