My Doberman Hates Me... Help!!
Greg Davis
considering taking her to the pound. I've always looked down on people who
took their dogs to the pound, but I think I can sympathize now. To
understand what this dog has put me though we must go back in time, back to
Jan '02.
I had just purchased this dog from a backyard breeder (I know first
mistake). The dog's parents were guard dogs, locked in a 40x40 pen, they
appeared mean. But when I went to see the puppies I was impressed, the one I
took home with me (her name is Jewell) followed me around, seemed very
alert, and intelligent. I bought her on the spot for $350.00.
A few days after getting her home, and I knew something was wrong, she
showed no affection at all, and would bite down on my arm full force, and
shake her head violently. Oh well, I told myself, she's a puppy, and a
Doberman at that...maybe she just like to play rough. At about 13 weeks of
age I had her ears cropped (another $200 )..her crop job was very painful
for her, at one point the crown holding her ears up came dislodged. The vet
told me if this happened that I was to get the crown off to avoid injury. I
had to drive her back to my house to get some scissors to cut the tape, she
cowered and cried the whole way home (I'm sure she blames me for the
pain)...this happened twice!!!
Well we got though that, then about one month later, I walked into the house
after working all day. Usually she runs up to greet me, but this day she
acted different. She looked at me like she didn't know me, and barked at
me...Whoa! Puppies aren't supposed to do that..well, I thought, maybe she's
having a bad day...I handled her with kid gloves, and everything appeared to
be OK. Then the next day I walked into the house and she bolted out the
doggie door, then shoved her head back in the doggie door and stared at me,
once again I handled her with kids gloves, and eventually got her to warm up
to me.
This has gotten progressively worse, now it's to the point that she bolts
out the door when I walk in and urinates on the way out (but her tail still
wags). She walks around the house all day with her ears pinned to her head
(always) ...If she goes outside by herself her ears go back to normal.
If I go outside to great her, she cowers like I beat her, and urinates, If I
pick her up and bring her in the house she'll will sit in one spot
horrified.
I can't take much more of this, it's been going on for 2 months now! She's
also very aggressive toward everyone else. She has always been aggressive,
but she tried to bite a kid walking by our house today for no reason. The
hair on her back was standing on end...she looked like she was ready to
kill!! I will not stand from this. If she is doing this as a five month old
puppy, what will the future hold?
I've tried to socialize her, but it has been an impossible task. I've taken
her to Wal-Mart (several times) and stood outside for an hour and half
trying to get her comfortable around people.....all to no avail.
She seems to have two modes. Extreme fear (of me), and extreme aggression
( toward anyone else). She show little affection. But if I sit on the couch
and ignore her, she will roll on her back while chewing a bone. She will
play, but only if I run from her. Then she'll bite my ankles (usually as
hard as she can)...what fun. She also likes to jump on the couch when I
laying down, and chew her bone...usually she tries to get the bone on top of
my head and chew it there.
Where did I go wrong? I can't keep this dog around any longer..she's only
getting worse. I believe she sees my affection as a threat...unless I'm
very, very gentle...then she seems to warm up, but once I leave and come
back we are back to square one...I don't believe it's separation anxiety,
because many times she changes modes right before my eyes (usually when she
gets tired)
Wow, I didn't realize how long this post was. If you made it this far,
thanks...and HELP! Sending this dog to the pound with her extreme fear of
everything would be like sending her to hell. And the fact that she tried to
bite someone today I wonder if putting her down would be more humane (the
thought makes me sick).
I also have this bad feeling that it's just a matter of time before she
turns on me. Her extreme aggresion toward everyone else is really just fear.
And since she seems horrified of me....well, If she ever does turn on me,
she will have a legitimate reason to fear me, I'll tell you that.
Lone Hansen
"Greg Davis" <no...@your.biz> wrote in message
news:hCNz8.741$Rb.393...@newssvr14.news.prodigy.com...
> Hi, I have a Doberman pup that's a little over 5 mos. now. I'm seriously
> considering taking her to the pound. I've always looked down on people who
> took their dogs to the pound, but I think I can sympathize now>
Hi Greg.
it might very well be that her fear and aggression comes from bad
breeding, but it also sounds as their is something wrong with your
relationship with the pup, it sounds as if she doesn't trust you.
Have you ever attended any classes with her ?? Traning is very
important, it will help you build a relationship with her. If she is fearful
you need to be gentle, you have to work on gaining her trust. Have you
thought about getting a behaviourist to come and see the 2 of you
interacting, the behaviourist might be able to give you some pointers as to
what is wrong in your way of handeling her.
Furthermore socializing is not just to stand outside a shop for hours.
It has to fun and the pup has to feel secure. When I socialized my pup, I
would take it on walks around the block, bringing toys and treats. The toys
was for amusement and the treats were for other people to give my pup.
If I were you I would call in a behaviourist, to work with me. She is
still very young, and it is just to easy to give up before you yo have tried
to fix the problem. Fearful and aggresive dogs can be worked with. When I
got my current dog she growled at me and she was very fearful, she would try
to bite people in the street when I took her for walks, she would try to
attack people who moved fast. With a lot of patience, love, understanding
and traning she has gotten so much better, so it can be done, it just takes
some work.
Have you taken your pup to the vet ?? There might be something wrong
with her, she might react the way she does because she is in pain ??
Take her to the vet and talk with a behaviourist before you dump her.
She deserves that much.
Lone
lisa_s...@brown.edu
what struck me is the fact that not once do you mention playing with her.
Dogs need to interact with their people.
It seems the only time you really interacted with her was on her trips to
the vet. That is probably what she is remembering.
Find a toy she will enjoy and go outside and play with her. Toss a ball,
let her have some fun with you. It is a great way to bond.
Please try this and what the other poster suggested before turning her
in. It may well help you to bond and enjoy each other.
Good luck,
Lisa
In article <3ccfcfe9$0$97281$edfa...@dspool01.news.tele.dk>, "Lone
Robyn Rosenthal
>considering taking her to the pound. I've always looked down on people who
>took their dogs to the pound, but I think I can sympathize now. To
>understand what this dog has put me though we must go back in time, back to
[snip details]
>Where did I go wrong? I can't keep this dog around any longer..she's only
>getting worse. I believe she sees my affection as a threat...unless I'm
>very, very gentle...then she seems to warm up, but once I leave and come
>back we are back to square one...I don't believe it's separation anxiety,
>because many times she changes modes right before my eyes (usually when she
>gets tired)
>Wow, I didn't realize how long this post was. If you made it this far,
>thanks...and HELP! Sending this dog to the pound with her extreme fear of
>everything would be like sending her to hell. And the fact that she tried to
>bite someone today I wonder if putting her down would be more humane (the
>thought makes me sick).
>
>I also have this bad feeling that it's just a matter of time before she
>turns on me. Her extreme aggresion toward everyone else is really just fear.
>And since she seems horrified of me....well, If she ever does turn on me,
>she will have a legitimate reason to fear me, I'll tell you that.
Greg,
My suggestion would be to have her examined by a qualified canine behaviorist.
I emphasize "qualified" because anyone can buy a clicker or a choke chain and
call themselves a trainer.
From your description, it sounds as if your dog has some pretty serious issues
and a consultation with a QUALIFIED professional will help you to determine
what your next step should be and what your options actually are.
***********************************
Robyn Lori Rosenthal
Sterling Cotons and Park Place Grooming
Sterling, VA USA
***********************************
Andrea
<snip>
> Greg,
>
> My suggestion would be to have her examined by a qualified canine
behaviorist.
>
> I emphasize "qualified" because anyone can buy a clicker or a choke chain
and
> call themselves a trainer.
Agreed. Sounds like fear aggression to me. And seeing as both parents were
aggressive, you've set yourself a hard road.
Please attempt to work with this dog, as I'm sure you realize she's likely
to be put down if you bring her to the pound. Have you tried contacting the
breeder? Perhaps he/she will take the dog back.
--
-Andrea
Saorsa Basenjis
Patti
advise I received was to show her who is boss right away. Mine was
about six months when she tried to show us that she was the boss. For
instance, when I told her to scoot over on the couch so I could sit
down she would growl and snap. I was told to slap her on her muzzle.
I only needed to do this twice. It worked, now only have to tell her
to "scoot" and she scoots over quickly every time.
If this does not work, or if you want to start here first, maybe you
should have her checked out by a Veteranarian to be sure she doesn't
have any health problems.
My Doberman thought she they owned the world. Once she found out she
was not the queen of the house she has been a sweetheart ever since.
She loves the family, protects us and protects the neighborhood. But,
she is not agressive.
Hope this helps.
coto...@aol.com (Robyn Rosenthal) wrote in message news:<20020501090534...@mb-mf.aol.com>...
Lone Hansen
"Patti" <hous...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:23257050.02050...@posting.google.com...
> My family has had a few Dobermans. When I got one myself the best
> advise I received was to show her who is boss right away. Mine was
> about six months when she tried to show us that she was the boss. For
> instance, when I told her to scoot over on the couch so I could sit
> down she would growl and snap. I was told to slap her on her muzzle.
> I only needed to do this twice. It worked, now only have to tell her
> to "scoot" and she scoots over quickly every time.
>
in fearing people. My dog will snap at other people if given the chance, and
I strongly suspect that it is because she was hit by her previous owner, and
that her previous experience has taught her to be afraid of people. There
are so many other ways of dealing with this. Talk to a behaviourist.
Lone
Lushious Lugs
"Lone Hansen" <lo...@zorland.dk> wrote in message
news:3cd0f13c$0$97286$edfa...@dspool01.news.tele.dk...
[..]
> Don't follow this advice, it will only show your pup that she is right
> in fearing people. My dog will snap at other people if given the chance,
and
> I strongly suspect that it is because she was hit by her previous owner,
and
> that her previous experience has taught her to be afraid of people. There
> are so many other ways of dealing with this. Talk to a behaviourist.
>
> Lone
>
>
Nicely said Lone,
Diana
--
See my dog Stone ~ July 5th on the birthday calendar.
The aad group web site: http://www.ourdogs.chilly-hippo.co.uk
(In the UK 'lugs' or 'lug 'oles' is slang for ears ~ and no dog has a finer
set than my Stone!)
ChillnPain
who did no research on the breed, did no research on the breeder, in fact knew
they were buying from a BYB, didn't even put a half-asses attempt in at picking
the right puppy, buys it "on the spot." Drags it home, lets it walk all over
him, and between that and the fact that it's a BYB bred dog to begin with he
has in effect ruined the dog. At 5 months old no less. And then, to top it off,
he actually blames the puppy for what she has "put him through" when it was he
who put himself through Hell, and wants to dump the puppy off at the pound
because he's too lazy to bother t-r-a-i-n-i-n-g the puppy, and p-l-a-y-i-n-g
with the puppy, and s-o-c-i-a-l-i-z-i-n-g the puppy. Notice he just had to
mention how much money he's spent on the puppy so far that we're all supposed
to sympathize with, as if it wasn't his choice to do so..
..It's called, "train your damn dog and slap yourself for being an idiot" and
"the common sense factor."
>Subject: My Doberman Hates Me... Help!!
>From: "Greg Davis" no...@your.biz
>Date: 5/1/2002 1:23 AM Pacific Standard Time
>Message-id: <hCNz8.741$Rb.393...@newssvr14.news.prodigy.com>
Patti
like a small child that is going to go into the street, you need to
teach them right from wrong and snaping at you is wrong. Just give
them enough of a slap to get their attention without beating her and
say a firm no at the same time. You can also hold her muzzle and say
a firm no. This is how their mother teaches her pups, by putting her
mouth on the muzzle of her pup when she tries to teach her not to do
something.
However, I do agree that you should consult a behaviourist first and
go from there. Most of all give your pup lots of love. Take her on
walks, play with her, and give her a lot of attention. She is a part
of your family and she needs to feel that.
"Lone Hansen" <lo...@zorland.dk> wrote in message news:<3cd0f13c$0$97286$edfa...@dspool01.news.tele.dk>...
Melinda Shore
Patti <hous...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>I guess I wasn't very clear. My advice is not to hit hard, it is just
>like a small child that is going to go into the street, you need to
>teach them right from wrong and snaping at you is wrong.
Smacking an aggressive dog isn't likely to do anything but
aggravate the situation.
>This is how their mother teaches her pups, by putting her
>mouth on the muzzle of her pup when she tries to teach her not to do
>something.
You recommended, however, to slap the dog. At any rate,
you're not a dog and the dog isn't a human and I absolutely
believe that if you pretend that one or the other is not
true you're not going to have much success with your dog.
--
Melinda Shore - Software longa, hardware brevis - sh...@panix.com
If you send me harassing email, I'll probably post it
Robin Nuttall
Patti wrote:
>
> I guess I wasn't very clear. My advice is not to hit hard, it is just
> like a small child that is going to go into the street, you need to
> teach them right from wrong and snaping at you is wrong. Just give
> them enough of a slap to get their attention without beating her and
> say a firm no at the same time. You can also hold her muzzle and say
> a firm no. This is how their mother teaches her pups, by putting her
> mouth on the muzzle of her pup when she tries to teach her not to do
> something.
Um, this dog shows all kinds of signs of severe fear, and aggression
related to that fear. For instance, when a dog hackles and barks, it's
almost always a fear/defensive reaction. Hackling is an attempt to "look
bigger." And truly confident dogs don't need to hackle.
Slapping this dog on the muzzle is likely to result in some very ugly
consequences. At best, it'll be totally ineffective. At worst, it'll
trigger an extreme fear reaction and result in a full blown fear attack.
You got lucky with your dog. I wouldn't advise you to try that with any
others.
Ernie Williams
<chill...@aol.com> wrote:
> It's called, "train your damn dog and slap yourself for being an idiot" and
> "the common sense factor."
Thank you for writing what I was thinking
A dog (pet) is not a piece of furniture !!!
Chip
Lone Hansen
> like a small child that is going to go into the street, you need to
> teach them right from wrong and snaping at you is wrong. Just give
> them enough of a slap to get their attention without beating her and
> say a firm no at the same time. You can also hold her muzzle and say
> a firm no. This is how their mother teaches her pups, by putting her
> mouth on the muzzle of her pup when she tries to teach her not to do
> something.
Even though you don't hit hard, it is still going to have a negative
effect on a dog who is so afraid and insecure as this one. Your approach
might work with a confident dog that knows it is a part of the family, but
this dog runs and covers from the owner, if he starts to slap it he is only
going to drive it further away and will never be able to build the trust he
needs in order to work with it. There is nothing as dangerous as a fearful
dog who thinks that all humans are evil, and who doesn't trusts its owner.
Lone
Rocky
rec.pets.dogs.breeds:
> I am willing to bet everything that I own that if I had
> taken an adversarial approach to deal with my dog's fear
> aggression -- i.e., whacked him every time he growled at
> anyone -- he would have bitten multiple people by now. As
> it is, he's bitten no one. And, he does a pretty
> reasonable facsimile of "normal." The methods I've used
> with him have been positive reinforcement for good
> behavior, desensitization, and counterconditioning.
Something strange happened with Friday at agility class last
week. He started staring, then growling, at someone standing
alone against the far wall in the horse arena. I distracted
him, but it was no go - more growling and staring.
When I led him over to this person, a very tall teenaged boy,
Friday resisted very strongly when we got to within 20 feet of
him. We resolved things with the help of Friday's 2nd favourite
person in the world. Lynn stood with the teen and called Friday
over and the boy fed Friday some good treats.
I've never seen Friday behave like this - I'd sure be interested
in knowing what type of baggage he's carrying.
--
--Matt. Rocky's a Dog.
Gwen Watson
Melanie L Chang wrote:
> The methods I've used with him
> have been positive reinforcement for good behavior, desensitization, and
> counterconditioning.
>
And medication. I personally feel that is a very important
factor in the success of Solo that often is failed to be
acknowledged or announced. I am not certain *IF*
it is a type of denial or a type of shame. Either
way it shouldn't be either, since he has done so well with
all of the efforts.
Gwen
Gwen Watson
Rocky wrote:
> I've never seen Friday behave like this - I'd sure be interested
> in knowing what type of baggage he's carrying.
>
> --
> --Matt. Rocky's a Dog.
Are you certain it is baggage. Dogs have a keen sense
of knowing when a person is not exactly good. Personally
*IF*/when Blade growls at someone, which he doesn't
I would be hightailing my buns far away.
Gwen
Rocky
>> I've never seen Friday behave like this - I'd sure be
>> interested in knowing what type of baggage he's carrying.
> Are you certain it is baggage. Dogs have a keen sense
> of knowing when a person is not exactly good.
The teen Friday growled was a nice kid, about 17. His mother is
in my class. I doubt that it was anything to do with the kid;
he was standing at least 50 feet away when Friday spotted him.
It's possible that the boy "magically appeared" - he wasn't
there when Friday first looked, and then he was. Plus, he was
wearing a green jacket, and green is one of the colours that
dogs are maximally sensitive to.
Tracy Doyle
Patti wrote:
>
> ... I was told to slap her on her muzzle.
I'm sorry, but at the risk of sounding like one of the resident trolls
around here, I cannot BELIEVE that anyone in this day and age would ever
recommend slapping a dog - ESPECIALLY on the face and ESPECIALLY if it
is already growling at you! I have deaf dogs and I'm not above giving
one a quick, light swat on the butt (and only to the "hard temperament"
dogs, not my softies) to distract them from chewing on something they
shouldn't be chewing on, but never, EVER slap a dog in the face unless
you feel like having a few fingers stitched up.
To the original poster - your dog seems like she is playing alpha. You
can correct this in a humane, non-confrontational way. Some people call
it the NILIF program (Nothing In Life Is Free) and it's here:
http://sonic.net/~cdlcruz/GPCC/library/alpha.htm
Before I used that method, I used to correct that sort of behavior with
a scruff shake, but even that is very risky unless you know what you're
doing and are ready to follow through until the dog submits. The method
I posted in the link is much better - you never confront the dog and you
never put yourself in any danger and you never provoke the dog into
challenging you further.
>
> My Doberman thought she they owned the world. Once she found out she
> was not the queen of the house she has been a sweetheart ever since.
> She loves the family, protects us and protects the neighborhood. But,
> she is not agressive.
Thank god she was only "playing" alpha and not a real one.
NEVER slap a dog in the face. Never. Never ever. Oh, geez, I can't
believe anyone recommended that.
Tracy
Serena
>And medication. I personally feel that is a very important
>factor in the success of Solo that often is failed to be
>acknowledged or announced. I am not certain *IF*
>it is a type of denial or a type of shame. Either
>way it shouldn't be either, since he has done so well with
>all of the efforts.
Very insulting, that. But nice feint, trying to acknowledge the success while
simultaneously belittling it as "a type of denial or a type of shame" since she
didn't prod people up front to seek out prescription drugs for their dogs.
Are you a Scientologist? I am asking out of curiosity; you're postings to this
group -- I don't really read other usent newsgroups, so perhaps you have other
posting interests -- seem to be pretty focused on the topic of pharmaceuticals
(and German Shepherds, so you do seem to have dual interests). If you are not
decided vis-a-vis becoming a Scientologist, I would suggust exploring the
field, since your interests seem to fall within that realm.
A lot of people, and a lot of dogs, have problems with precription
anti-depressent medication. It's overprescribed -- to a certain population
group -- but guess what, it's underprescribed to another population group.
Check your prescription figures against income levels, and include census
bureau stats (not just public school "problem stats").
However, these medications -- as well as the albeit slowly changing
realization that depression is an illness and not just a luxury of the
weak-minded -- have helped a countless number of people. Anyone is who harmed
by medication should seek their remedy. But do not deny that anti-depressent
medication has helped many many people (and dogs) who otherwise could not be
helped.
Thank God that you and your dogs don't need it. But what medications do you
need? Should we act all superior because we don't need [arthritus/ high blood
pressure/ anxiety/ headache / diabetes / whatever] medication? Because, isn't
that a type of shame, that you would need that kind of medication? Weakling!!!
Stop sucking up our resources!
I know, you will claim this a huge misunderstanding, and you are a victim ...
as usual ... because you really didn't mean to imply that whoever was covering
up the dog's medication history ... and you will whine and cry about the
misunderstanding long enough to make everyone here WISH you would go on
antidepressents just to get over it!!!
WHATEVER
Serena
Joseph (handsome german shepherd [GSD]), CGC
Raymond (gorgeous GSD mix)
Tara
> I know, you will claim this a huge misunderstanding, and you are a victim ...
> as usual ... because you really didn't mean to imply that whoever was covering
> up the dog's medication history ... and you will whine and cry about the
> misunderstanding long enough to make everyone here WISH you would go on
> antidepressents just to get over it!!!
>
> WHATEVER
WOW.....maybe I'm just really tired, but I didn't see *any* of what you
were just ranting about in Gwen's post.
Sheesh.....you might want to not make things quite so personal when
you're here. It IS usenet, after all.
Tara
Gwen Watson
Tara wrote:
> WOW.....maybe I'm just really tired, but I didn't see *any* of what you
> were just ranting about in Gwen's post.
>
> Sheesh.....you might want to not make things quite so personal when
> you're here. It IS usenet, after all.
>
> Tara
Exactly. And I am for one not about to whine about my post.
I feel it is pertinent information about the success of this
dog. Many, many people and dogs do need these
medications. It is very helpful. It is also very helpful
for people to see and realize that there are huge success
stories like Solo's with medication intervention.
As far as me mentioning denial. All I was trying
to say is that it is rarely mentioned as part of
the tools that have been used to get
Solo for a to b. Nothing more. Also
I suppose my own sensitivity in this very
subject matter as my parents still deny
my epilepsy and or the need for medication.
Obviously there is a need.
Gwen
Gwen Watson
Melanie L Chang wrote:
>
>
> Well, thank you, but I am neither ashamed, nor in denial. I just don't
> see the need to reel out Solo's entire biography every time someone posts
> asking for help with an aggressive dog.
>
Yes but the audience you were speaking with at the time
under this topic is *probably* not aware that Solo is
on medication. I have never seen a post
from this particular OP. There are also
many lurkers who have just started reading this
NG, so it could highly benefit them to know about
this.
I mention this as my own parent still are in denial
of my epilepsy. They don't mention it or talk about
it. They also don't talk about the medication.
I wasn't trying at all to be insulting. Although
for some reason you did take it that way.
I was trying to point out how successful
the meds have been with Solo and how
that is very much a huge part of the formula
in his success. Taken off these meds he *may* very
well revert back to what he was months ago
but certainly not ever what he was when
you first brought him home. Obviously
since you have worked with Behavior specialist.
Gwen
Gwen Watson
Melinda Shore wrote:
>
>
> You recommended, however, to slap the dog. At any rate,
> you're not a dog and the dog isn't a human and I absolutely
> believe that if you pretend that one or the other is not
> true you're not going to have much success with your dog.
> --
> Melinda Shore - Software longa, hardware brevis - sh...@panix.com
> If you send me harassing email, I'll probably post it
Yeah what she said! 100%
Gwen
DogStar716
>simply because I forgot to mention it -- it's something I take for granted
>now.
Well, when you are advising a new poster on how to handle an aggressive dog,
and you use Solo as an example, you really should mention the drugs. If it's
such an important tool, as you say, maybe the poster could check into it for
his dog.
Dogstar716
Come see Gunnars Life: http://hometown.aol.com/dogstar716/index.html
Gwen Watson
Melanie L Chang wrote:
>
>
> It's hardly a state secret; I've discussed it bazillions of times on this
> forum.
Sure you have posted it many times. But not in my awareness
to this particular OP that you gave advice to. Which is exactly
why I pointed it out. The OP is new, asking for advice
about her dobe. Nothing more.
> I'm not weirdly obsessed with the meds, however, as you are.
???? And you draw this conclusion of me being weirdly
obsessed why? I am not at all obsessed. As I mentioned
I feel it is a pertinent part of Solo's success and you have
stated this many times that without the medications
Solo would *probably* not be a happy dog. So to you
these medications, ie prozac or a miracle. So why
not brag about it and tell how much you feel Solo
has benefited?
> If
> you think I'm trying to hide anything, you have a very poor memory. And I
> know you've read the many posts where I discussed Solo's drugs, because
> you've replied to most of them.
You definitely failed to mention this to the OP that you gave
advice to as did you fail to mention this several weeks
ago on behavior group when you gave advice about
a dog that had bitten numerous times. That is again
why and the why fors that I pointed this out. No
more no less. One has to wonder why is this
important tid bit of information often left
out when advising newbies. JMO Obviously
I am not talking about the regulars here. Most
of us are all aware of this.
>
>
> I believe that psychopharmacology is part and parcel of modern behavioral
> modification, just another tool. I omitted mention of it in my last post
> simply because I forgot to mention it -- it's something I take for granted
> now.
I understand that it is probably easy to take this for granted.
But it really could be helpful when giving advice to a
newbie or a newcomer the whole picture and not
just part of the picture. Since you have often
said without the meds, that Solo would not be happy without
the meds. Once again my reasoning for pointing this out
in the first place. If you feel that is obsession to care
about others and their dogs so be it, I guess I am guilty.
It was in genuine concern and nothing more.
> However, there are other occasions when I don't lead off by
> mentioning medication, for the following reasons:
>
> (1) Medication won't work unless it is employed in conjunction with
> training and behavioral modification. Sometimes, when you mention meds,
> people immediately go off and seek some miracle pill that will fix their
> dogs without any further effort. This ends up being pointless,
> expensive, and ultimately heartbreaking.
I agree with that 100%.
>
>
> (2) Lots of dogs will do fine with the behavior modification, without the
> drugs.
Absolutely true!
> I can't prescribe drugs or tell people which meds their dogs
> should be on, but I can discuss positive training methods in a general
> fashion which I hope people might find helpful.
You can't prescribe but you can make mention that Solo
needed some behavior meds to really get all the benefits
he could and that maybe they could talk this over with
their Vet. You are correct you can't prescribe nor
would that be responsible to really suggest it *is* needed
but *may* be needed is entirely different.
> And I direct people to
> certified vet behaviorists with the understanding that those behaviorists
> might prescribe medication. I don't think that meds are appropriate for
> every dog, but positive training techniques are.
Behaviorist are appropriate for every dog? I don't think so. Not
*most* of the dogs I meet.
>
>
> (3) Sometimes when I mention meds, it produces a knee-jerk, hostile
> reaction in the audience my comments are addressed to. It's not
> something I tend to lead off conversations with because it turns a lot of
> people off, and when a dog's life is at stake, I think it's important to
> keep the lines of communication open.
I think if a dogs life is at stake everything that has worked in
a particular situation deserves mentioning, especially in
an incident like this is which the OP was new or to my
knowledge had never posted on this board before. Again JMO.
>
>
> (4) Frankly, I'm sick of getting into stupid arguments about my
> medicated dog on this newsgroup and there are only so many hours in a
> day. (So why am I sitting here typing this now? God only knows.)
I wasn't trying to get into an arguement. You are the one who became
defensive. Surely I shouldn't have mentioned the horrible
word *denial* as that is what set this off. But I have to
wonder why it is often not mentioned since once again
it has helped so much according to all of your posts
about this topic. So again I feel it is warranted bit
of information when giving advice that could possibly
save another dogs life. Don't you? Again I agree
you can't prescribe nor really suggest. But it can always
be listed as parts of the STEPS to Solo's success. At
least I see no reason why it shouldn't be.
>
>
> : Either
> : way it shouldn't be either, since he has done so well with
> : all of the efforts.
>
> Well, thank you, but I am neither ashamed, nor in denial. I just don't
> see the need to reel out Solo's entire biography every time someone posts
> asking for help with an aggressive dog.
>
Well I do, since the information you are giving could save
another dogs life.
Gwen
Lone Hansen
> I think if a dogs life is at stake everything that has worked in
> a particular situation deserves mentioning, especially in
> an incident like this is which the OP was new or to my
> knowledge had never posted on this board before. Again JMO.
>
>
The OP has posted before a couple of months ago. He had just had it's
ears cropped and the whole thing collapsed twice. The dog was in pain and
blamed him for the pain, as he had to pull it off. He was asking for advice
of how to handle the situation, and how to get the pup to trust him again.
Most responses were that the pup would forget the pain that it had been
through.
Perhaps the incidents with the ears is still an issue, as the dog seems
to fear him and not to trust him. Can't remember what he said about their
relationship before that.
Not that it means that he hung around reading posts up to now.
Lone
Gwen Watson
Lone Hansen wrote:
> Perhaps the incidents with the ears is still an issue, as the dog seems
> to fear him and not to trust him. Can't remember what he said about their
> relationship before that.
>
> Not that it means that he hung around reading posts up to now.
>
> Lone
Ya know Lone the whole ear thing could be a key in a way.
Blade had his ears tatoo'ed as per SV regulation. Had I known
what was involved I would have asked my Vet for something
to give him ahead of time to ease the anxiety as well as the
pain, ie tranquilizer and possible topical pain killer.
At any rate it took months and months for him to let
the Vet or me touch his ears.:( It was a very tramatic
experience. Well I just failed to mention the Vet messed
up the first time and put the clamps, impression
on wrong side of ear so he had to have it done 2x's!:(( Not
good at all.
Glad you pointed this out about the OP. I still do not
think the OP necessarily is aware about Solo's success
with medication that has highly benefited his quality
of life.
Gwen
Gwen Watson
Serena wrote:
> 'Gwen Watson' wrote:
>
> >And medication. I personally feel that is a very important
> >factor in the success of Solo that often is failed to be
> >acknowledged or announced. I am not certain *IF*
> >it is a type of denial or a type of shame. Either
> >way it shouldn't be either, since he has done so well with
> >all of the efforts.
>
> Very insulting, that. But nice feint, trying to acknowledge the success while
> simultaneously belittling it as "a type of denial or a type of shame" since she
> didn't prod people up front to seek out prescription drugs for their dogs.
I wasn't trying to belittle. Often people are in denial. I myself
was in denial for a long time about my seizures. It is almost
human nature. Take it however you want to but that
was certainly not my intent.
>
Are you a Scientologist? I am asking out of curiosity; you're postings to this
group -- I don't really read other usent newsgroups, so perhaps you have other
posting interests -- seem to be pretty focused on the topic of pharmaceuticals
(and German Shepherds, so you do seem to have dual interests). If you are not
decided vis-a-vis becoming a Scientologist, I would suggust exploring the
field, since your interests seem to fall within that realm.
Bwahahahahaha! Right! Scientology? Not ever. Wicca maybe!
Dual interests what in the heck does this mean. I have more than
one interest and actually I like almost *all* herding breeds
including which I do have Malinois. I also am very interested
in Canaan dogs and I am doing research as I write this in
regards to this breed. So GSD's are of course my favorite
breed. As far as pharmacueticals I have no interest
in the medical field whatsoever. My reasoning for
posting the post was to benefit the OP and their dog.
I do concern myself with issues about saving dogs
lifes if it is possible. Since Melanie has obviously
had a great success with Solo on medications
I personally feel it would benefit the OP and
other lurkers to be informed about this.
>
>
> snipped:
> However, these medications -- as well as the albeit slowly changing
> realization that depression is an illness and not just a luxury of the
> weak-minded -- have helped a countless number of people. Anyone is who harmed
> by medication should seek their remedy. But do not deny that anti-depressent
> medication has helped many many people (and dogs) who otherwise could not be
> helped.
Where are you coming from with this? I am the one that pointed
out the medications where in fact needed to benefit Solo? I also
agree 110% that these medications benefit a vast amount
of people, especially those that also seek some therapy and
or behavior modification as in Solo. So I am not sure
what this is about since I obviously was the one who
made it a point to mention the benefit of the medication.
>
>
> Thank God that you and your dogs don't need it.
Absolutely.
> But what medications do you
> need?
Is this really your business. But to be perfectly
honest and to NOT conceal anything I need
phenobarbital for GM seizures. What's the point?
> Should we act all superior because we don't need [arthritus/ high blood
> pressure/ anxiety/ headache / diabetes / whatever] medication? Because, isn't
> that a type of shame, that you would need that kind of medication? Weakling!!!
> Stop sucking up our resources!
I never said that. Again I was saying that it warranted being
mentioned. I admit I should not have used the word
*denial* but *many* people that need *some*
medications are in denial and do not admit it. In
fact *some* often conceal it. I certainly don't think
or believe in anyway shape or form that those
that need medications are weak. Obviously I
need medications to survive and live a normal
life, so why would I think this. I think you just took
offense to my wording and went off on a tangent
that actually wasn't warranted, but obviously
your opinion about me and the subject is set
in stone as you mentioned Scientology and such.
Funny though I have never seen your name either
on this board though you seem to know me well
and have formed conclusions about my thoughts
and lifestyle as well by the mentioning of Scientology.
>
>
> I know, you will claim this a huge misunderstanding, and you are a victim ...
Really? I doubt it. In fact not a chance. It isn't a misunderstanding
I am talking about saving a dogs life. And Victim???????
Bwahahahahahahah once again. I personally could care
less what you think or for that matter and anyone on
the other end of a computer is not at all capable of
victimizing me.
>
> as usual ... because you really didn't mean to imply that whoever was covering
> up the dog's medication history ... and you will whine and cry about the
> misunderstanding long enough to make everyone here WISH you would go on
> antidepressents just to get over it!!!
Oh now you are qualified to prescribe me medications I don't need?
And your credentials are what? Also making suggestions
of religions I would never ever believe in my wildest
dreams! I think you may be the one that needs to get
over it.
>
>
> WHATEVER
>
> Serena
> Joseph (handsome german shepherd [GSD]), CGC
> Raymond (gorgeous GSD mix)
Irony meter!!!
Whatever, exactly.
Gwen
Lone Hansen
> Ya know Lone the whole ear thing could be a key in a way.
>
> Poor Blade, what an ordeal to go through. Here we tattoo the ears as
well, it gets done when the pups are very young, before they leave the
breeder, which I am glad for as I don't think that I would be able to be
around for it.
the OP said that when he picked the pup because it was happy and
following him around when he went to see the litter . Now I am not saying
that there isn't something wrong with the temperment, but is it normal that
a pup goes from being happy and contact seeking at 8 weeks old to fearful
and aggressive at 5 months old ? The way I see it something must have gone
wrong somewhere.
Lone
Robin Nuttall
Gwen Watson wrote:
> At any rate it took months and months for him to let
> the Vet or me touch his ears.:( It was a very tramatic
> experience. Well I just failed to mention the Vet messed
> up the first time and put the clamps, impression
> on wrong side of ear so he had to have it done 2x's!:(( Not
> good at all.
Wow. What a weird reaction. I call that extremely poor resilience if it
really took him months and months to get over it. I've had a fair number
of dobes cropped, and have retaped ears, etc. None of them seem to
"resent" me for it, and none of them acted like they were in any
particular horrible pain. They bounced back very quickly from the whole
procedure.
>
> Glad you pointed this out about the OP. I still do not
> think the OP necessarily is aware about Solo's success
> with medication that has highly benefited his quality
> of life.
Whether or not you intended it, you post came across as snide and
accusatory. Melanie wasn't the only one to read it that way.
Gwen Watson
Robin Nuttall wrote:
> Gwen Watson wrote:
>
> > At any rate it took months and months for him to let
> > the Vet or me touch his ears.:( It was a very tramatic
> > experience. Well I just failed to mention the Vet messed
> > up the first time and put the clamps, impression
> > on wrong side of ear so he had to have it done 2x's!:(( Not
> > good at all.
>
> Wow. What a weird reaction. I call that extremely poor resilience if it
> really took him months and months to get over it. I've had a fair number
> of dobes cropped, and have retaped ears, etc. None of them seem to
> "resent" me for it, and none of them acted like they were in any
> particular horrible pain. They bounced back very quickly from the whole
> procedure.
>
Are these puppies awake when you have their ears cropped with no
sedation? And I don't think taping and retaping is anywhere similar
to the pain that was experienced. I am sure it didn't take months
but it certainly took past the time he was 5 months old since
the tattooing occured at 9 weeks old.
>
> >
> > Glad you pointed this out about the OP. I still do not
> > think the OP necessarily is aware about Solo's success
> > with medication that has highly benefited his quality
> > of life.
>
> Whether or not you intended it, you post came across as snide and
> accusatory. Melanie wasn't the only one to read it that way.
I wasn't accusing anyone of anything. If that is how you feel
about what my post said, all I can say is it wasn't my
intent. I was definitely wanting the medication part
to be discussed since once again it has played a huge
part in Solo's success. Leaving that out just doesn't seem
to tell the whole story and is very much IMO like
a missing piece to a puzzle.
Gwen
Gwen Watson
Lone Hansen wrote:
> >
> > Ya know Lone the whole ear thing could be a key in a way.
> > Blade had his ears tatoo'ed as per SV regulation. > Gwen
> >
> > Poor Blade, what an ordeal to go through. Here we tattoo the ears as
Yes it was an ordeal and my Vet was very shocked that NOTHING
at all was used to help with the pain.:(( In fact she was a bit miffed
as was I.
>
> well, it gets done when the pups are very young, before they leave the
> breeder, which I am glad for as I don't think that I would be able to be
> around for it.
> the OP said that when he picked the pup because it was happy and
> following him around when he went to see the litter . Now I am not saying
> that there isn't something wrong with the temperment, but is it normal that
> a pup goes from being happy and contact seeking at 8 weeks old to fearful
> and aggressive at 5 months old ? The way I see it something must have gone
> wrong somewhere.
> Lone
I agree that this seems as though something did occur more than just
something with the ears.
Gwen
Walter
Ernie Williams <nos...@nospam.org> wrote in message
news:020520021332548357%nos...@nospam.org...
JJDobes
>week. He started staring, then growling, at someone standing
>alone against the far wall in the horse arena. I distracted
>him, but it was no go - more growling and staring.
Personally, I don't think your dog is carrying any baggage. He's merely being
alert and responsive to possible threat (i.e. human being acting in what could
easily be perceived by him as strange).
Some years ago, my Doberman and I were attending an obedience class. A friend
of mine was also attending. She'd brought her father with her but told him to
stay out of sight so her dog wouldn't be distracted by him. So the old guy was
hiding behind trees and peeking out. My dog observed this and went into full
protection mode. She was doing her job.
We did what your trainer did. We took her over to investigate. Once she
determined there was no real threat, she was fine. Just as Friday was fine
once he saw there was no real threat.
Jeanette Jordan
JJDobes
Greg:
You went wrong in many ways. I won't even go into how you went wrong in
acquiring this pup. But then you went further astray by mistaking normal Dobe
pup behavior for agression towards you. And I'll bet you tried to correct that
puppy biting with harsh methods.
To make things worse, you went and had her ears cropped when she was 13 wks
old. That's old for cropping.
Then, you seem to have taken an adversarial position with the pup.
It is clear to me that you have never properly bonded with Jewel, nor she with
you. I believe your intentions were good and that you do love her in some
ways. But because YOU are conflicted, so is she. Can't you see that?
Dobermans are extremely alert and sensitive to our emotions and feelings. You
have developed a love/hate relationship with this dog. And she with you.
Here's what I recommend. If you think the relationship is salvageable and you
desperately want to keep this dog, enroll yourself in a good basic obedience
class (POSITIVE METHODS ONLY!). Any harsh methods will not work with her. Be
very upfront with the instructor.
If you cannot commit to this dog, try to get her into a Doberman Rescue group
in your area. Again, be very upfront with them as to what her problems are.
Based on what you have posted, I think she is salvageable. But it will take a
lot of hard work and a lot more knowledge about dog, especially Doberman,
behavior than you have now. You need expert advice and hands-on help. You are
not going to turn this pup around without it.
Good luck and keep us posted.
Jeanette Jordan
m
great.....mine wasn't agrressive but thought he was top dog.......since we
have been attending classes he has progressed very well and we bonded even
more.....good luck
"Greg Davis" <no...@your.biz> wrote in message
news:hCNz8.741$Rb.393...@newssvr14.news.prodigy.com...
> Hi, I have a Doberman pup that's a little over 5 mos. now. I'm seriously
> considering taking her to the pound. I've always looked down on people who
> took their dogs to the pound, but I think I can sympathize now. To
> understand what this dog has put me though we must go back in time, back
to
> Jan '02.
> I had just purchased this dog from a backyard breeder (I know first
> mistake). The dog's parents were guard dogs, locked in a 40x40 pen, they
> appeared mean. But when I went to see the puppies I was impressed, the one
I
> took home with me (her name is Jewell) followed me around, seemed very
> alert, and intelligent. I bought her on the spot for $350.00.
> A few days after getting her home, and I knew something was wrong, she
> showed no affection at all, and would bite down on my arm full force, and
> shake her head violently. Oh well, I told myself, she's a puppy, and a
> Doberman at that...maybe she just like to play rough. At about 13 weeks of
> age I had her ears cropped (another $200 )..her crop job was very painful
> for her, at one point the crown holding her ears up came dislodged. The
vet
> told me if this happened that I was to get the crown off to avoid injury.
I
> had to drive her back to my house to get some scissors to cut the tape,
she
> cowered and cried the whole way home (I'm sure she blames me for the
> pain)...this happened twice!!!
>
> Well we got though that, then about one month later, I walked into the
house
> after working all day. Usually she runs up to greet me, but this day she
> acted different. She looked at me like she didn't know me, and barked at
> me...Whoa! Puppies aren't supposed to do that..well, I thought, maybe
she's
> having a bad day...I handled her with kid gloves, and everything appeared
to
> be OK. Then the next day I walked into the house and she bolted out the
> doggie door, then shoved her head back in the doggie door and stared at
me,
> once again I handled her with kids gloves, and eventually got her to warm
up
> to me.
>
> This has gotten progressively worse, now it's to the point that she bolts
> out the door when I walk in and urinates on the way out (but her tail
still
> wags). She walks around the house all day with her ears pinned to her head
> (always) ...If she goes outside by herself her ears go back to normal.
> If I go outside to great her, she cowers like I beat her, and urinates, If
I
> pick her up and bring her in the house she'll will sit in one spot
> horrified.
>
> I can't take much more of this, it's been going on for 2 months now! She's
> also very aggressive toward everyone else. She has always been aggressive,
> but she tried to bite a kid walking by our house today for no reason. The
> hair on her back was standing on end...she looked like she was ready to
> kill!! I will not stand from this. If she is doing this as a five month
old
> puppy, what will the future hold?
> I've tried to socialize her, but it has been an impossible task. I've
taken
> her to Wal-Mart (several times) and stood outside for an hour and half
> trying to get her comfortable around people.....all to no avail.
>
> She seems to have two modes. Extreme fear (of me), and extreme aggression
> ( toward anyone else). She show little affection. But if I sit on the
couch
> and ignore her, she will roll on her back while chewing a bone. She will
> play, but only if I run from her. Then she'll bite my ankles (usually as
> hard as she can)...what fun. She also likes to jump on the couch when I
> laying down, and chew her bone...usually she tries to get the bone on top
of
> my head and chew it there.
>
> Where did I go wrong? I can't keep this dog around any longer..she's only
> getting worse. I believe she sees my affection as a threat...unless I'm
> very, very gentle...then she seems to warm up, but once I leave and come
> back we are back to square one...I don't believe it's separation anxiety,
> because many times she changes modes right before my eyes (usually when
she
> gets tired)
> Wow, I didn't realize how long this post was. If you made it this far,
> thanks...and HELP! Sending this dog to the pound with her extreme fear of
> everything would be like sending her to hell. And the fact that she tried
to
> bite someone today I wonder if putting her down would be more humane (the
> thought makes me sick).
>
> I also have this bad feeling that it's just a matter of time before she
> turns on me. Her extreme aggresion toward everyone else is really just
fear.
> And since she seems horrified of me....well, If she ever does turn on me,
> she will have a legitimate reason to fear me, I'll tell you that.
>
>
>