Min. doberman question!
XscoreX
seemed very responsible & she has a pedigree. well, I went to a mini pin web
page & it says her ears are suppossed to be erect. my pinscher's ears fold over
& kind of look like a terriers ears. does cropping them make them stand up more
like a dobies or did I just get a not very well bred dog? Can I still get her
ears cropped or is she too old?
thanks
kyle
Avrama Gingold
XscoreX <xsc...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20000413181623...@ng-cg1.aol.com...
Hate to say this, but if the breeder sold you a 6-week old puppy Miniature
Pinscher (there is no such breed as Miniature Doberman), and let you take
her home, you certainly did not go to a good breeder. Six weeks is too
young for any dog to leave the litter, let alone a toy breed.
The MinPin's ears may be cropped and then posted to stand erect--something
the responsible, dedicated, knowledgeable breeder arranges to have done
before sending the pup to its new owner--or the ears may be left natural.
She is not too old--indeed, she is not quite old enough. (Doberman Pinscher
ears are usually done a 7-9 weeks.)
If the breeder used the term "Miniature Doberman," then you KNOW she was not
a responsible, dedicated, knowledgeable breeder. Let me start from the
beginning. "Pinscher" is the German word for a smooth coated terrier (just
as the "Schnauzer" is a rough coated terrier). The basic breed is the
Standard Pinscher (known in the States, where they are rare, often as the
German Pinscher). A miniature, toy variety was developed some 4-500 years
ago or more (there is a Raphael painting with the subject holding a little
dog that could readily be a MinPin). Then in the last decades of the 19th
century, in the town of Apolda, Austria, a chap named Louis Dobermann was a
combination of town tax collector, rent collector, and dog catcher/animal
control. He wanted a dog that would bond closely to him, and protect him
against everything ("the Devil himself if necessary"). Using the German
Pinscher as a start, Louis added other breeds, most likely the Rottweiler
for strength, the Weimaraner for scenting ability (and probable source of
the dilution gene), the British Manchester or Black and Tan Terrier for a
smoother coat (Louis Dobermann's pinscher was to spend much of its time
indoors with its person), perhaps (legend) the French Beauceron (or "pieds
rouge" giving the marking pattern, plus alertness), and, much later (around
1909) a black Greyhound bitch for speed. Anyway, other dog people saw the
dogs Dobermann was breeding, and the breed became known first as
"Dobermann's Pinschers," then the Doberman Pinscher, and finally in some
countries simply as the "Doberman." The first Dobes were registered in
German on or about 1890.
The Miniature Pinscher, or MinPin as it is called by those who know and love
it, is also known as the "King of the Toys." It comes in either a solid red
(sort of light auburn) from whence its German name of Reh Pinscher, because
it looks somewhat like a Roe Deer, or in a black-and-rust like the majority
of Dobes. It is a very alert, opinionated, active little creature, who is
convinced it is 90 pounds of king dog in about 10-12 pounds. The breeder of
my Haver (Doberman) always had one or two MinPins (including the first
MinPin in the South to earn a UD), and one of the MinPins always bossed all
the Dobes. They can be delightful, but definitely benefit from formal
obedience training.
Lots of luck with your new girl.
avrama-in-waiting
Kathryn Walker
Avrama Gingold
Kathryn Walker <Ka...@webtv.net> wrote in message
news:1079-38F...@storefull-278.iap.bryant.webtv.net...
> Troll... or total idiot?
>
Probably neither, just someone terribly, terribly naive. The breeder
(MISbreeder) may love her grandbabies, but doesn't know that love is
necessary but not sufficient.
avrama-in-waiting
Nancy Holmes or Nelson Ruffin
anyone who actually knows something about breeding dogs understands about
what a pup learns in the important 8 weeks they spend with their litter and
their dam
I see no reason why a small time mill would not be fussy about cleanliness
when having people visit underage pups - heck would not want the cash crop
to die on you now would you?
Anyway your pup is WAY too young for the ears to be standing if they are
going to go up naturally - that comes in about 12-16 weeks. Toy pups are
seldom cropped before they reach the 4-5 lb range due to the risks in the
anesthetic. Save your money and get your pup neutered instead and go to
obedience classes too - much more worthwhile in the long run.
Nancynews:20000413220759...@ng-ch1.aol.com...
> dear lord, my bad I called it a doberman but thats what everyone else
referred
> to it as being. I had done extensive research & yes I know that it is not
a
> doberman at all, but thanks for the history lesson anyway. (that was in
> reference to the first post in the thread)
>
> This is what led me to believe that the breeder was responsible
> 1st, she would not let us handle the dog until we had disinfected our
hands.
> 2nd. she had all the dogs papers as well as a lot of literature on the min
pin
> that she made us read before selling. She insisted that i have the dog
checked
> by a vet in a week to gaurantee health , if it was sick the contract
stated she
> would take it back
> 3rd. she was very enthusiastic about us keeping in touch to see how the
puppy
> was doing.
> 4th everything was extremely clean, and everything seemed to be in order
.
> this was an extreme contrast to all of the other things I had seen with
other
> breeders.
>
> now i'm not a dog expert so I have no idea if that means anything but I
had a
> good feeling & I trusted buying the dog from her. she was an old lady &
refered
> to them as her " grandbabies" hahah, how can you not trust that!
Anyway,the dog
> is fabulous and seems to be very smart, the potty training is going alot
better
> than i had with my beagle jack russel mix. So far it seems to be a great
dog.
blac...@dog-play.com
: I just got a 6 week old miniature doberman, she's beautiful & the breeder
: seemed very responsible & she has a pedigree.
Please excuse me for not answering your question, I just don't know that
much about miniature pinchers, (except that they are not dobermans in any
way). But I can learn to be more helpful if I keep reminded of the
perspective of other people. So I have a real question for you. You
describe the breeder as seeming "very responsible" Could you please
describe for me what it was that made the breeder seem to be responsible?
Please don't feel shy about it, if you think you might be embarassed you
can reply privately but you will help more people if you reply
publicly. It is really important to know how people who haven't been
immersed in the discussions for years sees things.
Diane Blackman
o...@dog-play.com http://www.dog-play.com
One can only attempt to insult, it is not complete until accepted.
XscoreX
blac...@dog-play.com
: Troll... or total idiot?
Neither, just a person who doesn't know something and had the
intelligence to ask. Exactly what is the harm in taking a question such
as was given at face value and giving a useful and polite response? Let
us assume, just for the moment, that the question was not sincere? By
answering it carefully and politely good information is given. It
doesn't really matter whether the original poster was sincere. What is
important is the opportunity for all readers to learn and by the answer
be encouraged to learn more. Surely that is more help to the health and
welfare of dogs than an answer that provides no information and
discourages asking of questions.
Diane Blackman
di...@dog-play.com http://www.dog-play.com/
- - - - - - - -
"When classifying reinforcements as positive or negative, it is best to
think of the terms as mathematical rather than emotional. A reinforcer is
positive if it is added to the situation and negative if it is removed."
"Smart Trainers -- Brilliant Dogs" by Janet Lewis
Kim Miller
sake!
On Thu, 13 Apr 2000 21:59:02 -0400 (EDT), Ka...@webtv.net (Kathryn
Walker) wrote:
>Troll... or total idiot?
>
-----
Kim Miller
Email: dreams...@yahoo.com
blac...@dog-play.com
: well you were given lots of reasons why the breeder is not responsible -
Yes, but that is after the fact. I asked why Kyle thought the breeder
was responsible and Kyle was kind enough to reply. Understanding what
people who haven't been "in dogs" for years look at when they think
"responsible breeder" is important. I didn't find anything illogical
about the qualities listed. In fact I found the qualities to be quite
rational. Just because they were not enough doesn't render this person
stupid.
: anyone who actually knows something about breeding dogs understands about
: what a pup learns in the important 8 weeks they spend with their litter and
: their dam
: I see no reason why a small time mill would not be fussy about cleanliness
: when having people visit underage pups - heck would not want the cash crop
: to die on you now would you?
While this is true it isn't information the average person is going to
find in most of the sources on searching for a puppy. Most of them
emphasize things like checking the cleanliness of the kennel. It may not
be a talisman to responsible breeding, but the converse a dirty facility
is certainly a warning sign. Listing that quality is in no way contrary
to common sense and responsible self-education.
: Anyway your pup is WAY too young for the ears to be standing if they are
: going to go up naturally - that comes in about 12-16 weeks. Toy pups are
: seldom cropped before they reach the 4-5 lb range due to the risks in the
: anesthetic. Save your money and get your pup neutered instead and go to
: obedience classes too - much more worthwhile in the long run.
Well, this is at least part of the information Kyle was looking for. Of
course if it is normal and acceptable for a dog of a particular breed to
be cropped I don't see any reason to not do the cropping AND neuter and
show the dog in obedience. According to the breed's web site this breed
may be shown either cropped or uncropped but in either case the ears must
stand on their own. http://hometown.aol.com/mpcapec/mpibshed.htm (hmmm,
don't know how they test that with cropped ears)
This isn't someone who wrote in talking about planning to breed. It is
someone who may not have discovered the information *we* think they
should have but had a question that in short was this - I thought I had
found a responsible breeder, but now that the puppies ears aren't like
what I see in pictures I'm not sure - There is nothing nerfarious or
stupid about the question.
Sheesh we want people to learn more but if they dare to show that they
don't actually already know the basics some people would rather snap them
off at the knees than be encouraging and supportive of getting the right
information. Our judgement about what questions a person should have
asked *earlier* is not anywhere near as important as taking the
opportunity to encourage people to keep asking questions NOW.
Diane Blackman
di...@dog-play.com http://www.dog-play.com
"If others' interpretations either bother us or recur, we owe it to
ourselves and our dogs to reevaluate our own orientation carefully. If we
find ourselves becoming angry and defensive, chances are our own
interpretations are the incorrect ones. "The Body Language and Emotion of
Dogs" by Myrna M. Milani, DVM.