A clue!
ZnCo
to his size, facial markings, and herding tendency, but it's entirely a
guess.
I think I may have a clue though...normally his coat is medium length,
straight, and semi-coarse (though it's gotten a lot softer since we've had
him). When it's wet, though, it gets a crimped look to it, like he used one
of those awful irons some of us subjected ourselves to in the '80s. It
always dries straight with brushing.
What breeds have coats like this? I'd love anyone's help in solving the
mystery of his "ancestry".
TIA,
Steph
--
Come check out my handsome boys!
http://people.we.mediaone.net/saminton
Trailblazer125
>of those awful irons some of us subjected ourselves to in the '80s.
I've had several collies (not border) with coats that do this - especially in
the soft fine hair behind the ears and on the "pants" in the back.
Jana
&Bonnie
Tracey D.
Rastus had really wavy puppy fur - I used to kid the ex-boyfriend
(breeder) that a poodle had gotten to his prize bitch!! Hehehe...
But Rastus turned out fine - a really great example of the breed -
except for being a total coward...LOL!
Tracey D.
Rocky
<aQ666.6631$y9.37...@typhoon.we.rr.com>:
>When it's wet, though, it gets a crimped look to it, like he
>used one of those awful irons some of us subjected ourselves
>to in the '80s. It always dries straight with brushing.
Rocky's coat goes that way after he's been in the river - I call
that his "Rastafarian" look.
I'd say Boris has Border Collie for sure (but you know this).
Bernese Mountain Dogs have Boris' colouring and the type of coat
you describe.
--
--Matt. Rocky's a Dog.
ZnCo
> I'd say Boris has Border Collie for sure (but you know this).
> Bernese Mountain Dogs have Boris' colouring and the type of coat
> you describe.
> --
That was the original guess (Bernese & Pointer, actually, but the herding
thing is hard to ignore as you well know!), but his coat is too short to
have Border Collie & Bernese. That's why I opted for Greater Swiss, though
I think they're even more rare, so who knows!
TO...@dog-play.com
I've seen quite a few Australian Shepherds that could easily pass as a
small Berner minus the tail. Actually I've seen a few that are the same
size as a small Berner. Short coat is dominent so the second breed could
easily be long coated. There are border collies that look like Australian
Shepherds and vice versa - hard even for an experienced person to tell
apart - but with the larger size I'd lean more toward Australian Shepherd
to account for the herding instincts.
Examples of black-tri Australian Shepherds
http://www.fortunecity.com/meltingpot/cranley/493/ditto.html
http://members.fortunecity.com/riattaaussies/trader.html
http://hometown.aol.com/kitsyps/amanda.html
http://www.montroseaussies.com/kole.htm
Diane Blackman
http://www.dog-play.com/ http://www.dog-play.com/TOTE.html
Falling short of a goal of "excellent" leaves room for "very good."
Falling short of a goal of "good enough" leaves only "not good enough."
Rocky
>There are border collies that look like Australian
>Shepherds and vice versa - hard even for an experienced
>person to tell apart - but with the larger size I'd lean more
>toward Australian Shepherd to account for the herding
>instincts.
That was kinda my first guess (mostly because Boris' head shot
looks somewhat like Rocky), but those leg freckles are very BC-
ish.
ZnCo
I usually give him a quick once-over with the brush, but didn't today (just
moved...couldn't find it!), and the hair on his rump is standing up a lot
like I've seen on some Aussies. So many possibilities!
Here's a few shots taken after his bath today (that's why he looks so
mussed):
http://people.we.mediaone.net/saminton/boris0107.htm
BTW, for scaling purposes: he's about 75 lbs. and 28"
I'm really loving the digital camera Santa brought me! <G>
Rocky
<Ytc66.7196$y9.40...@typhoon.we.rr.com>:
>I actually started wondering about Australian Shepherd after
>his bath today.
Well, it wouldn't be the first (and won't be the last) time that
I was wrong and Diane was right. He's got an Aussie head,
though the snout misses out a bit.
Them leg freckles, though. I'll stick to BC. And now that I
see the side shot, I'm taking the Berner and Swiss out of the
equation. Perhaps Aussie/BC (maybe that's what Diane meant).
Diane gave a few example of Black Tri Aussies, but not the best
one:
http://www.cadvision.com/bonnerm/index.html
JBartonR
NO Swissy in him. Sorry, but there is nothing structurally or in the
coloration to support your hypothesis.
Jim
TO...@dog-play.com
> Rocky (australia...@cadvision.com) wrote:
> : Them leg freckles, though. I'll stick to BC. And now that I
> : see the side shot, I'm taking the Berner and Swiss out of the
> : equation. Perhaps Aussie/BC (maybe that's what Diane meant).
> He weighs 75 pounds. I wouldn't expect any Aussie/BC cross to be that
> big.
Well, these dogs are 60 pounds and within standard for height
http://vaxwww.clarion.edu/~faculty/eggleton/Aussiestuds.html
so add an inch and 75 wouldn't be outragous.
> I vote for Berner, definitely. My advisor has one of those Aussies
> that looks like a small Berner, but Boris is smooth-coated, right? Could
> be Berner x smooth-coat BC.
Aussies carry a varying amount of coat. They aren't all shaggy bears.
> --
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Melanie Lee Chang | Repetition is the death
> Departments of Anthropology and Biology | of art.
> University of Pennsylvania |
> mlc...@sas.upenn.edu | -- Chris Stevens
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
Diane Blackman
http://www.dog-play.com/ http://www.dog-play.com/TOTE.html
To reach a goal you must set a destination.
ZnCo
>
> He weighs 75 pounds. I wouldn't expect any Aussie/BC cross to be that
> that looks like a small Berner, but Boris is smooth-coated, right? Could
> be Berner x smooth-coat BC.
It's a little longer than your standard smooth coat, but definitely shorter
than any Berner or rough BC I've ever seen. His body type definitely isn't
that of a Berner or Swissy...too lean, but he's _tall! That and the facial
markings are why I keep leaning toward one of those in his mix, though I
know Aussies come with those markings as well.
I might be measuring from the wrong spot when I say 28", but he's at least
2" taller than his Lab X brother, who is on the tall end of the Lab spectrum
(but not outside of it). He also gained those 2" in the past 6 months...he
was shorter than his brother when we got him. He's about twice the size of
the 10 month old BC in his agility class (trying to come up with comparisons
here...). He's also starting to come out of the gangly-teenager thing
(physically at least) and is beginning to look very polished in agility (at
least among the beginners <G>).
Oh - he also has a very definite prey drive. He spends as much time as
we'll let him stalking Oscar the Super-Hamster.
You gotta love a good mystery!
ZnCo
> http://vaxwww.clarion.edu/~faculty/eggleton/Aussiestuds.html
> so add an inch and 75 wouldn't be outragous.
>
I got a broken link on the second two pictures, but according to the stats
they are all 22-23", so while the 75 lbs. isn't unreasonable, he's at least
5" taller...
Thanks for the input!
Shelly
(although, he's cross, Collie, and most likely BC).
Shelly, Coda & Guiness..
"Trailblazer125" <trailbl...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20010107182530...@ng-fl1.aol.com...
Shelly
<TO...@dog-play.com> wrote in message news:93biip$2tnj$1...@nntp1.ba.best.com...
>Short coat is dominent so the second breed could
> easily be long coated.
Diane...
I've often wondered about this with coat length/texture. So, a shorter
coat is the more dominent gene? What about double-coateness?
Like, for example, take a pup from an ACD and a...Sheltie. Double-coated,
short hair? And a pup from an ACD and something like a Cocker or Springer,
or Aussie (smooth, longish but single-coated)? I'm curious, only because
it may help with the ID'ing of my own dog. Or, like alot of things, is it
sort of just a "how it turns out" type of thing? We always thought Coda
was probably Collie (that is obvious in his face, and other things as well.
Plus, I actually saw a photo of his mom, a sable smooth collie). But, the
background of his father is a bit more questionable. Supposedly, in the
neighborhood (the woman I adopted him from, got him from a neighbor of
hers), there was a big male GSD (light black & tan), a Border collie
(classic b/w) and a JRT. The other dogs she knew about were mostly either
female or neutered, and it's a fairly small neighborhood.
I know it's hard to pinpoint it down, since male dogs could travel for
quite a distance to pay a bitch in heat a visit....but it would just be nice
to know. His coloring as a young pup (up to about 14 wks or so, I got him
at 10) was almost identical to GSD markings. Then, the darkness went
away, and he had sable markings (with no blaze on face, and only a small
amount of white on his chest, but a white tail tip). He's very "herdy",
and a bit on the barky side when he hears noises (quiets down on command
quickly), is *very* quick and agile (even though he's got mild CHD, but he's
still young--only 16 months--redoing Xrays in another 6 months), and learns
*very* quickly, sometimes in only one or two repeats of a new command.
It's odd, but *if* the BC was his dad, that would explain alot of things,
even though he is quite Collie-like in his temperament and attitude.
Just keep wondering, I guess...
Shelly, Coda & Guiness...
Shelly
eye...
That *may* account for some of the rust markings, and the size...but the
ticking, Springer, BC, ACD...maybe that would account for the shorter nose
length too...I don't know, I'm just tossing guesses.
Maybe he's something like BC/rottie/Aussie?
Who said, "You've gotta love a mystery!" (Wasn't that you, Stephanie?)
Shelly, Coda & Guiness...
"Rocky" <australia...@cadvision.com> wrote in message
news:9022EC96Daustr...@130.133.1.4...
TO...@dog-play.com
> <TO...@dog-play.com> wrote in message news:93biip$2tnj$1...@nntp1.ba.best.com...
>>Short coat is dominent so the second breed could
>> easily be long coated.
> Diane...
> I've often wondered about this with coat length/texture. So, a shorter
> coat is the more dominent gene? What about double-coateness?
I don't know about the double-coat, or even if it is covered in the
reference. The short coat vs long coat came
readily to mind because I was discussing that with another trainer the
night before. Also that wire coat is dominent. The person I was talking
with had a better handle on it that I do.
> Like, for example, take a pup from an ACD and a...Sheltie. Double-coated,
> short hair? And a pup from an ACD and something like a Cocker or Springer,
> or Aussie (smooth, longish but single-coated)? I'm curious, only because
> it may help with the ID'ing of my own dog.
The book "Genetics of the Dog" by Malcolm Willis has a huge section on
coat color genetics which is a big help on ruling out certain
combinations. But coat color is not 100% understood, and I'd bet the
other factors are not either. So for some stuff it is guessing based on
observation.
> Or, like alot of things, is it
> sort of just a "how it turns out" type of thing?
A lot of it is just that. In high school (and a lot of college classes)
we learn about dominent and recessive. What is either not taught or is
forgotten is co-dominence and polygenic factors. Genes interact with
each other to produce differing results.
Diane Blackman
http://www.dog-play.com/ http://www.dog-play.com/TOTE.html
"Dogs that are trained by handlers who do not try to understand how their
companions learn will never be able to quite master the rules of the
game." "Smart Trainers -- Brilliant Dogs" by Janet Lewis
Shelly
<TO...@dog-play.com> wrote in message news:93ctr6$1b8h$1...@nntp1.ba.best.com...
>
> A lot of it is just that. In high school (and a lot of college classes)
> we learn about dominent and recessive. What is either not taught or is
> forgotten is co-dominence and polygenic factors. Genes interact with
> each other to produce differing results.
>
Fiennes a few days ago, skimming actually, and it mentions a little bit
about genetics. But, I'm thinking I was having a difficult time wrapping
my artsy brain around all the science. *laugh* I hope to find a somewhat
easy to read book on genetics, but not too easy that it's toomplistic. Any
suggestions?
Shelly, Coda & Guiness...
emi...@my-deja.com
http://www.dogagility.com/MyDogs/Whitney3.jpg
Emily (not ~Emily)
In article <aQ666.6631$y9.37...@typhoon.we.rr.com>,
Sent via Deja.com
http://www.deja.com/
TO...@dog-play.com
Well I don't know about book recommendations - I'm a tech head and won't
necessarily recognise easy to read. But I bet I can help on one thing -
the concept of dominent - recessive - incomplete dominence and polygenic.
Think of genes as paint. Some are oil paints, some are water
color. When you paint the canvas you will always use at least two layers
of paint.
With oil paints the top layer pretty much takes over everything
underneath. (Dominence)
Because oil paints (especially) get their color from chemicals
sometimes mixing several colors gets rather unexpected
results. (I'm assuming you know oils because I'd have to look it up for
an example) (Polygenic)
You can get the same end color in different ways depending upon your base
color (Polygenic)
Sometimes if the gene is watercolor instead of oil the color underneath
will show through so what you get isn't one color or the
other but a third color from their combination. (Co-dominence - or
incomplete dominence)
Diane Blackman
http://www.dog-play.com/ http://www.dog-play.com/TOTE.html
Life is too short to be fretful.
Cindy
>Sometimes if the gene is watercolor instead of oil the color underneath
>will show through so what you get isn't one color or the
>other but a third color from their combination. (Co-dominence - or
>incomplete dominence)
Although sometimes if the mixed state (heterozygous or "carrier")
always has the same color (tho different from homozygous dominant or
homoz. recessive, then it's still a simple autosomal recessive with
the bonus that you can readily identify carriers. (Autosomal
recessive, fancy way of saying that it's a classic dominant recessive
thingie.)
And the polygenic stuff can take many forms. Maybe the colors vary
because of how you've layered on the oil paints. Or maybe they vary
because of the type of brush you used. Or maybe because there was a
different color in one corner that you might think wouldn't influence
the area you're working on but does anyway.
I'ts enough to keep you up nights :)
--Cindy
--
*********** tit...@io.com ** http://www.k9web.com/tittle.html **************
John F Richardson
:anyone see in Boris a body and tail shape
:like a Kuvasz:
Well, I could download the jpeg on the
link you cited, but when I went to
Boris's page, what I assume was
Boris's audio vocalization caused
Pablo and several of the other
to go ballistic!!!!
JohnR
Pit Bull Libertarian
Never sneer at the power of a little
pink squeaky toy!
Tiger Lily
>That first pic on the bath photos, he's got an almost rottie look in his
>eye...
>That *may* account for some of the rust markings, and the size...but the
>ticking, Springer, BC, ACD...maybe that would account for the shorter nose
>length too...I don't know, I'm just tossing guesses.
>Maybe he's something like BC/rottie/Aussie?
>Who said, "You've gotta love a mystery!" (Wasn't that you, Stephanie?)
>Shelly, Coda & Guiness...
oh, good........ it wasn't just me that saw some Rottie in the mix somewhere
(and it accounts for the 28" shoulders)
kate
LA Reidler
>than any Berner or rough BC I've ever seen. His body type definitely isn't
>that of a Berner or Swissy...too lean, but he's _tall!
I'll go out on a limb here........I would have guessed English setter and an
Aussie/Border type mix. Setter would account for freckling, height, and
leanness. It would also contribut to the 'stalking behavior. BC/Aussie would
add some mass.
LA Reidler
Elizabeth Naime
> Think of genes as paint. Some are oil paints, some are water
> color. When you paint the canvas you will always use at least two layers
> of paint.
...and with most paints that have "layers" you can paint darker colors
over lighter ones, each darker tone being "dominant" to the previous
lighter tone --- epistasis?
Elizabeth "paint by numbers" Naime