Blonde Boston Terrier?
Christina DiMuzio
he's blonde and white. I know that bostons only come in black and white,
and brindle so I asked him some questions. He says that sometimes bostons
come out blonde but these puppies are usually put down because they aren't
the correct color. Has else heard of this?
Christina
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Liisa Sarakontu
news:hgF8b.12078$fC5.1...@news20.bellglobal.com:
> My neighbour came home with an adorable puppy that is a boston terrier,
> but he's blonde and white. I know that bostons only come in black and
> white, and brindle so I asked him some questions. He says that
> sometimes bostons come out blonde but these puppies are usually put
> down because they aren't the correct color. Has else heard of this?
There used to be a site with a large photo gallery of werird-colored
Bostons. Most were brown/chocolate and white (bb gene pair), some were non-
brindle sables with black mask (just like fawn Boxers) and although all the
photos weren't perfect, I was quite sure that a couple of the dogs there
were ee recessive yellows. In Bostons that gene pair would give a pale
yellow/tan dog with normal white pattern but no dark hairs anywhere. Your
neighbor's dog is most probably genetically ee yellow.
Liisa
Christina DiMuzio
"Liisa Sarakontu" <lsar...@cc.hut.fi> wrote in message
news:Xns93F5B0216A87...@193.229.0.31...
genes so perhaps you could explain a little more? I'm finding this whole
thing very fascinating.
Liisa Sarakontu
> I am not familiar at all with breeding and
> genes so perhaps you could explain a little more? I'm finding this
> whole thing very fascinating.
I mentioned these genes or gene pairs:
B/b
B gene gives normal, black pigment. bb gene pair turns all black on a dog's
coat into brown (aka liver, aka chocolate). Black/white Bostons are turned
into brown/white and black-striped brindles are turned into brown-stripes
brindles (but the yellowish pigment under stripes doesn't change).
E/e
E gene gives normal amount of black/dark pigment. ee gene pair takes about
all dark away from the coat and leaves just the yellow/tan pigment. This
gene pair turns all Bostons into pale yellow/pale tan with normal white
markings.
Ay
This is the only A locus gene Bostons have, they are all "dominant yellow"
aka "sable" aka "fawn". They just don't normally show the pattern as they
are nearly always dominant blacks (which makes them solid black) or
brindle, which makes their pale coat areas densely striped.
kbr/k (suggested, non-official gene names)
Normal Bostons are brindle, and they show dark striping over all of the
yellow/tan coat areas they have. Black/white dogs can be brindle too, they
just can't show the striping as the solid black color hides it. When a
Boston has kk gene pair AND it is not black, the underlying yellow/tan coat
color is seen better as the stripes are totally missing. But all dark
pigment is not wiped away (like ee gene pair did), the dark mask on face
(caused by Em gene) is there and it is now visible.
More about color genetics can be found behind these links:
http://www.hut.fi/~lsarakon/collinks.html
Liisa
Christina DiMuzio
other breeds, where genes would produce an odd colored dog. Does it happen ,
for instance, with Irish Setters? Is it possible for a pup to be born
another color other than red? I still would like to larn more.
Chris
Liisa Sarakontu
> I am assuming this happens
> with other breeds, where genes would produce an odd colored dog. Does
It depends on the breed and its normal colors. In some pure white breeds
(Westie and Bichons, for example) only genetically possible non-standard
colors are cream patches on white, or solid pale cream coat. (Unless a rare
mutation happens.) In breeds like these the normal coat color is caused by
a combination of mostly recessive genes.
In some other breeds the normal coat color is a combination of mostly
dominant genes, and in them you can get very weird colors in your litter
box as recessive genes can be carried "hidden" under the dominants. For
example, it is possible to get pure white, pure yellow, liver, blue or
white-spotted pups from two purebred, regular-looking saddlebacked German
Shepherds as genes for all those colors/patterns are floating there in the
breed gene pool.
> it happen , for instance, with Irish Setters? Is it possible for a pup
> to be born another color other than red?
Irish Setter red is a combination of a couple of recessive genes (ee + max.
amount of rufus), and so most colors/patterns are not possible. But they
get every now and then red-and-white piebald pups, with pure white coat
areas or with ticking, and at least in theory a paler yellow/tan coat
should be possible although I have never heard of such in this breed. There
are rumours of solid black Irish Setters, but they are either breed crosses
or very rare mutations (e -> E).
Liisa
onew...@netscape.net
+0000 (UTC), Liisa Sarakontu <lsar...@cc.hut.fi> did speak the
following bit of wisdom:
>But they
>get every now and then red-and-white piebald pups, with pure white coat
>areas or with ticking
Liisa: FWIW, the above are considered a separate breed altogether
(Irish Red & White Setter).
*~ *~ *~
Karen C.
Spammers be damned! I can't be emailed from this account! So there...
"You have no power here!
...Be gone! Before somebody drops a house on you too!"
onew...@netscape.net
-0400, "Christina DiMuzio" <cdim...@sympatico.ca> did speak the
following bit of wisdom:
>Does it happen, for instance, with Irish Setters? Is it possible
>for a pup to be born another color other than red?
Absolutely...yes. They would be extremely rare, but there have been
solid black Irish setters born on occasion. Mismarks occur in Gordon
setters also. There are pups who are born solid black, without the
normal tan points. There have been dogs who were born solid red or
reddish tan or liver and tan, with no black on them whatsoever. (I
understand this also occurs in Rottweilers.) Also rarely seen but very
possible are purebred Gordons who are born piebald (black and white,
black, white and tan or mostly white with black and/or tan patches).
Neat looking dogs, but obviously, incorrect according the Standard and
therefore, not to be bred on.
The elusive black Irish setter has been discussed on Setters-L many
times, but I've never been able to find a good picture of one on the
web. I do have a site bookmarked that shows mismarks in Gordons. Here
you go; enjoy: http://www.dol.net/~Kristin.Majercik/whitegs.htm
For Liisa, all the setter breeds were crossed with each other (and
with other breeds) very early on in their development. I would guess
this type of cross-breeding might be how the black genes got into the
Irish setters and the piebald genes into the Gordon. There was even
supposed to have been a "Welsh setter" (now extinct) that came in
solid black and/or solid white who was reported to have been used in
the development of both Irish and Gordon setters. In his book "The
Setter," Edward Laverack talks about black coloring in Irish setters
as well as the cropping up of black pups in early, well-bred litters:
http://website.lineone.net/~irws/laverack.htm
We like to think we've pretty well sorted things out by now, but
occasionally, the dog gods do like to have a last laugh... ;)
Liisa Sarakontu
news:vv4amvs3nl8iktpuf...@4ax.com:
> Liisa: FWIW, the above are considered a separate breed altogether
> (Irish Red & White Setter).
Yes, I know. But that doesn't change the fact that some Irish Red Setter
bloodlines still carry the piebald gene and so can throw red and white
pups. Just like Smooth and Rough Collie are two separate breeds (at least
here in FCI countries) and still two smooths can throw long-coated pups
every now and then, if both parents happen to be long coat gene carriers.
Liisa
Liisa Sarakontu
news:665amvsna8fr77fio...@4ax.com:
> For Liisa, all the setter breeds were crossed with each other (and
> with other breeds) very early on in their development. I would guess
> this type of cross-breeding might be how the black genes got into the
> Irish setters
All modern Irish setters are genetically ee. All black dogs are genetically
EmEm, EmE, Eme, EE or Ee but not ee as that gene pair makes black coat
areas impossible. When you breed two ee dogs to each others, you can get
just ee pups. Irish Setters just can't carry the needed genes for black and
can't get black pups without getting "outside help".
> and the piebald genes into the Gordon.
That's different. All normal Gordons and Red Irish are SS homozygous
solids, but as dogs with gene pair Ssp can look totally solid or just have
a small white spot on chest, the sp piebald gene can be carried hidden in
the breed gene pool. When two Ssp dogs are bred, about 25 % of the
resulting litter will be spsp piebalds and not solids. Recessive genes can
be carried hidden under dominants, but dominants can't normally be carried
hidden.
> Setter," Edward Laverack talks about black coloring in Irish setters
> as well as the cropping up of black pups in early, well-bred litters:
> http://website.lineone.net/~irws/laverack.htm
There were probably Ay sable dogs in the breed during those days, as that
description "blood red with a tinge of black" and ability to have black
pups when bred to other red dogs fit perfectly to sable coat pattern.
Liisa
Emily Carroll
> setters also. There are pups who are born solid black, without the
> normal tan points. There have been dogs who were born solid red or
> reddish tan or liver and tan, with no black on them whatsoever.
I have a friend who breeds Gordons. She bred her foundation bitch to a boy
out west somewhere (AI it was...) He was also bred a week prior to a bitch
belonging to someone else. The stud owner called her in a panic to let her
know that a pup from the prior litter was born red.
She thinks one of the pups she kept carries it as well.
~Emily
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Emily Carroll
genetically
> EmEm, EmE, Eme, EE or Ee but not ee as that gene pair makes black coat
> areas impossible. When you breed two ee dogs to each others, you can get
> just ee pups. Irish Setters just can't carry the needed genes for black
and
> can't get black pups without getting "outside help".
That's not necessarily true. I've heard that it's possible that some are
a(y)a(y), as is the possible case with fox red Labradors (I believe it's
not, but that's me) and in some Golden retrievers. That would mean that
they could, theoretically, carry recessive black (i.e. GSD's black version).
Provided that it's only that way in a few dogs in the gene pool, it would
make sense.
What I wonder is about the blue instead of black Weimies.
~Emily
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Shelly & The Boys
Yes...like the Belgians are in the US. It's not uncommon for
Tervs to be born in a Groen litter, and vice/versa. Or for a Terv
to come from a Mal litter...
Shelly & The Boys
Mary Healey
> In some other breeds the normal coat color is a combination of mostly
> dominant genes, and in them you can get very weird colors in your litter
> box as recessive genes can be carried "hidden" under the dominants. For
> example, it is possible to get pure white, pure yellow, liver, blue or
> white-spotted pups from two purebred, regular-looking saddlebacked German
> Shepherds as genes for all those colors/patterns are floating there in the
> breed gene pool.
And sometimes you get weirdness that isn't readily apparent. There are,
apparently, some ee "red" Heelers. Red v. Blue in ACDs is usually
determined by the A locus (ay v at), and two blues should always produce
blue offspring. A red out of two blue parents is most likely an ee red,
but the phenotypic differences between an ee red and an ayay red are subtle.
--
Mary H. and the Ames National Zoo: Regis, Sam-I-Am, Noah (1992-2001),
Ranger, Duke,
felines, and finches
Liisa Sarakontu
news:bk4eg9$d87$1...@msunews.cl.msu.edu:
> I have a friend who breeds Gordons. She bred her foundation bitch to a
> boy out west somewhere (AI it was...) He was also bred a week prior to
> a bitch belonging to someone else. The stud owner called her in a
> panic to let her know that a pup from the prior litter was born red.
These things happen :-) But it was really good that the stud owner didn't
try to keep that as a secret but told about it. Not all stud owners would
do that! In this case both parents of the first litter happened to be red
carriers.
> She thinks one of the pups she kept carries it as well.
About 50 % of her litter are red carriers too, and without DNA testing or
test breeding it is impossible to see which ones are carriers and which
ones are not. I don't know if the "red" in this case is bb brown or ee
yellow/tan/red, but there is a test for both B/b and E/e gene pairs.
Liisa
Liisa Sarakontu
news:bk4j1l$bq2$1...@news.iastate.edu:
> And sometimes you get weirdness that isn't readily apparent. There
> are, apparently, some ee "red" Heelers. Red v. Blue in ACDs is usually
> determined by the A locus (ay v at), and two blues should always
> produce blue offspring. A red out of two blue parents is most likely
> an ee red, but the phenotypic differences between an ee red and an ayay
> red are subtle.
These ee ACDs are paler than normal reds in the breed, their noses are not
jet black but slightly paler and the most important difference: They had
clear yellow patches when born, not the grey-shaded tan patches like normal
"red" Australian Cattle Dogs have. The color difference got much smaller
when they grew. Two such dogs were DNA-tested and really turned out to be
ee, as was thought.
Liisa
Emily Carroll
> test breeding it is impossible to see which ones are carriers and which
> ones are not. I don't know if the "red" in this case is bb brown or ee
> yellow/tan/red, but there is a test for both B/b and E/e gene pairs.
There are only 3 pups in the litter, she kept the two girls. One of them is
*very* brightly marked, as compared to the rest of her setters which don't
have the bright red markings. She thinks that one might carry it.
Not an issue, as it isn't in her lines already.
Liisa Sarakontu
> That's not necessarily true. I've heard that it's possible that some
> are a(y)a(y), as is the possible case with fox red Labradors (I believe
> it's not, but that's me) and in some Golden retrievers. That would
> mean that they could, theoretically, carry recessive black (i.e. GSD's
> black version). Provided that it's only that way in a few dogs in the
> gene pool, it would make sense.
But if there were sables in these breeds, they would look very different in
litter box and could be easily identified as non-ee. And as most ee Labs
are hiding dominant black under their coat, a cross between a clear sable
and an yellow Labrador would give normally just black pups.
Two sables can get a solid black pup only when recessive black is involved,
but a sable and an ee yellow can get dominant black pups too if the ee
parent is genetically K- dominant black. This was proven alteady decades
ago by that ancient yellow Labrador x sable Collie mutt crossing, which
gave an all-black litter. That breeding proved that dominant black isn't in
E locus, but for some reason it was placed in the A locus where it isn't
either.
Liisa
Emily Carroll
> But if there were sables in these breeds, they would look very different
in
> litter box and could be easily identified as non-ee.
But would they? Irish Setters (ee) are/can be the same shade as basenjis
(sable). Theoretically, it's not impossible, especially if only one dog
introduced the sable gene to the pool.
And as most ee Labs
> are hiding dominant black under their coat, a cross between a clear sable
> and an yellow Labrador would give normally just black pups.
Hence why I don't feel it's the reason fox reds exist. But taking it back
to Irish--if some Irish are sable instead of ee (I'll call it red), and
dominant black exists along with recessive black, theoretically a a(y)a
a(y)a breeding would produce black and sable. Even moreso, if they were
a(y)aEe, you would have a very small margin of blacks in a litter of
otherwise red/sable puppies. The genes would have to exist in a very small
percentage of the breed, otherwise it would be much more common.
KWBrown
PMFJIH:
I *so* appreciate all I learn about dog colour genetics from all of you!
Thank you so much for chatting about this here!
My dogs' colour genetics are relatively simple - black or liver with the
occasional surprise. This is amazing stuff...
Kate
Mary Healey
> Mary Healey <mhhe...@iastate.edu> wrote:
>>And sometimes you get weirdness that isn't readily apparent. There
>>are, apparently, some ee "red" Heelers. Red v. Blue in ACDs is usually
>>determined by the A locus (ay v at), and two blues should always
>>produce blue offspring. A red out of two blue parents is most likely
>>an ee red, but the phenotypic differences between an ee red and an ayay
>>red are subtle.
>
> These ee ACDs are paler than normal reds in the breed,
Usually. It's not always easy to see "paler" when the dog has a lot of
white.
>their noses are not jet black but slightly paler
Usually <g>. Figure 23:
http://www.ar.com.au/~norclark/acdcoat2.htm#colour%20issues
> The color difference got much smaller
> when they grew. Two such dogs were DNA-tested and really turned out to be
> ee, as was thought.
More than two, IIRC. Two in North America for certain, and a few
Australian dogs.
Liisa Sarakontu
> But would they? Irish Setters (ee) are/can be the same shade as
> basenjis (sable).
About same shade yes, but look at Basenjis closer. Most of them have some
black hairs at the nase of the tail, some (especially tanpoint carriers)
have a black spot there, and some have black sabling on their backs too.
And as I already said, puppy color is very different. ee pups are borb
clear yellow/tan/red and normally they turn slightly darker when they
mature. Sablepups have some amount of dark (black/grey) shading on their
backs and muzzle is often black. They look normally rather grey and not
pure yellow/red, some are even closer to black than yellow/red.
> Theoretically, it's not impossible, especially if
> only one dog introduced the sable gene to the pool.
But that requires that nearly all of the ee yellows are hiding sable and no
other patterns under their yellow coat. Otherwise you'd end up with black,
saddle, tanpoint and whatever pups and not just sables and ee yellows.
Liisa
Child
"KWBrown" <arfenar...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:Xns93F7629851AC0ar...@130.133.1.4...
it is amazing. I love watching this conversation.
Child
"Shelly & The Boys" <sn...@BADBOYSpacifier.com> wrote in message
news:vmbfrti...@corp.supernews.com...
so......
a terv is just a color difference, not a bred difference?
Liisa Sarakontu
news:vmde1fp...@corp.supernews.com:
> a terv is just a color difference, not a bred difference?
Tervueren, Malinois, Laekenois and Groenendal are treated as 4 separate
breeds (at least here), although you should be able to register each pup to
the breed it looks like even if its parents are of other breed.
Theoretically:
The only difference between Terv and Groen is coat color. Groens are
dominant blacks (sometimes perhaps recessive blacks) and Tervs are sables.
The main difference between Terv and Mali is coat length. Tervs are
homozygous for long coat gene ll and Malis are short-coated LL or Ll. In
reality Malis have slightly different temperament, and Tervs have suitable
"fluffier, fuller coat" modifier genes so that a long-coated pup from two
Ll Malis normally has shorter coat than a normal Terv, and its temperament
is also different.
About the only difference between Mali and Laekenois is the wire coat gene:
Malis are homozygous for non-wire coat whwh, Laekens are WhWh or Whwh.
Groenendals can get Terv-type pups, as sable can easily be carried under
dominant black coat. But Groens can't get other coat types, just long
coated pups.
Tervs normally get just Terv-type pups, but it is said that they have the
rare recessive black gene and so every now and then they might get a solid
black pup. Black-looking Terv pups are more often tanpoints or other dark
but not solid black patterns.
Malis can get long-coated pups, so they can get Terv-type offspring.
Theoretically they could get both smooth-coated blacks or even Groen-type
pups, if recessive black is found from Mali gene pool.
Laekenois can get smooth, Mali-type pups and in theory they could get also
Terv-type pups or pups with both ll long-coat gene pair and Wh wire coat
gene, and that genotype should give about same coat as Briards or Bearded
Collies.
Liisa
Shelly & The Boys
"Child" <be...@NOT-SO-bad-dawgs-in-ak.com> wrote in message
news:vmde1fp...@corp.supernews.com...
> >
> > Yes...like the Belgians are in the US. It's not uncommon for
> > Tervs to be born in a Groen litter, and vice/versa. Or for a Terv
> > to come from a Mal litter...
>
>
>
> so......
>
> a terv is just a color difference, not a bred difference?
>
>
>
It depends on who you talk to...
Supposedly, the DNA matches on all 3 (am not positive re: Laekens,
but I think so as well). They all descend, more or less, from
the same small group of dogs. IIRC, they were Mali'ish looking
dogs, then blacks popped up, and a brindle here & there (potentially
Dutch Shep influences?). There aren't a lot of records prior to the
first Belgian Shepherd club in the early 1890's.
The AKC considers any longhaired non-black dog to be a Terv.
Whereas, the Malinois standard (shorthaired fawn w/ black mask/overlay)
and Groenendael standards are specific (black, or black with limited
white on chest and/or hind toes). Of course, the Terv club set forth
their own standard, which may or may not (dependant upon the
judge!) include the greys. I get confused sometimes with some of
the Terv color terminology, when it comes to greys vs. pale fawns.
(I've seen a silvery-like grey, and that was obvious, and I've seen
very pale fawns dubbed as greys, and people have said that's not
a grey. I recently saw a male that was termed grey, and his coloration
looked like that of a Norwegian Elkhound. I dunno).
I'm not particular, and I suppose if I were into Tervs, I'd possibly have a
different preference.
I find the pale fawns with limited black overlay to be my personal
favorites, but what do I know! (For a peek at a bitch that I am personally
in love with see Elan: http://www.villa-roma.com/dogs/elan/elan.html ).
Of course, the fact is that (according to AKC's pedigree system), a Terv can
also be a black dog (a DQ'd colored Terv--same goes for Groens, black or
black w/ teeny bits of white only, anything else is DQ'd in the
conformation ring). That same brown Groen, or black Terv, though,
could turn around and potentially win in UKC ( and UBSDA--United Belgian
Shepherd Dogs Association, breeder judges only) shows.
http://www.belgians.com/ubsda/
Shelly & The Boys
dianne marie schoenberg
>
>Theoretically:
>The only difference between Terv and Groen is coat color. Groens are
>dominant blacks (sometimes perhaps recessive blacks) and Tervs are sables.
Y'know, I was just thinking about recessive black yesterday.
I heard somewhere that it sometimes occurs in Briards, but
can't remember the source of that information, nor have I
been able to verify it.
Liisa (oh goddess of color genetics :-)) what do you know
about recessive black in continental herding breeds? There's
the GSD, of course--the best-known example of recessive black
--but if I can verify that it occurs in other breeds it might
help more in understanding the genetics of my own.
>Laekenois can get smooth, Mali-type pups and in theory they could get also
>Terv-type pups or pups with both ll long-coat gene pair and Wh wire coat
>gene, and that genotype should give about same coat as Briards or Bearded
>Collies.
You mean a drop coat rather than a stand-off coat? That
seems very odd to me. Drop coat is a combination of ll
and Wh? What about silky drop coats like on the Maltese?
I'm having a hard time getting all this straight in my
head; I guess I haven't had enough coffee yet this
morning :-).
BTW, thank you for the excellent explanation of Belgian
Shepherd genetics!
Dianne
Liisa Sarakontu
news:bk76ce$opm$1...@nntp3.u.washington.edu:
> Y'know, I was just thinking about recessive black yesterday.
> I heard somewhere that it sometimes occurs in Briards, but
> can't remember the source of that information, nor have I
> been able to verify it.
That's new to me. Got to remeber that.
> what do you know
> about recessive black in continental herding breeds? There's
> the GSD, of course--the best-known example of recessive black
> --but if I can verify that it occurs in other breeds it might
> help more in understanding the genetics of my own.
GSD has recessive black, right. Shelties have it too, and there is one case
when a black and white Collie was born from two normal colored parents, so
it was either a recessive black or a mutation. Lapponian Herder has
recessive black, and most probably Finnish Lapphund has it too (but I don't
have enough breeding statistics yet to prove it). And there are solid
blacks from two normal grey Swedish Vallhunds (Vatsgotaspets), so that
breed, which is related to Corgis, has recessive black. Belgian Shepherds
are said to have it, but I'm not yet 100 % sure about it. And I have
recently heard of one case in Pomeranians and another in Mittelspitzes
which probably mean that these breeds have recessive black - but that is
about that. No proven cases from other breeds.
> You mean a drop coat rather than a stand-off coat? That
> seems very odd to me. Drop coat is a combination of ll
> and Wh? What about silky drop coats like on the Maltese?
> I'm having a hard time getting all this straight in my
> head; I guess I haven't had enough coffee yet this
> morning :-).
I've never heard that term "drop coat" - you mean coat like Bearded Collie,
long all over?
The Wh "wire coat" gene doesn't actually cause wiry, hard coat but it
causes all of the coat to be sligthly longer tan normal and it causes extra
hair on the body parts which are normally very smooth, like face and paws.
Wh + LL short coat + some hard-hair modifiers give a coat like Border
Terriers have, mostly rather short but hard and wiry instead of smooth, and
there are easy-to-see whiskers, beard and eyebrows. Breeds with more soft-
coat and longer-hair modifiers have coat like Wire Fox Terriers, whose coat
can easily be "sculpted" for show ring.
A combination of Wh and ll long coat give LOTS of coat all over the dog,
and no smooth face but a very hairy face. If there are enough "silky, flat,
straight" modifiers, you should get a Maltese coat. With "hard, fluffy,
not-that-long" you should get a Briard coat. There is another, separate
gene for extra curliness and probably for different kind of hair, and with
this the Wh ll combo should give Poodle coat. (It is also possible that
there is a separate Poodle coat gene and it is not the Wh gene.)
Liisa
dianne marie schoenberg
>dia...@u.washington.edu (dianne marie schoenberg) wrote:
>
>> Y'know, I was just thinking about recessive black yesterday.
>> I heard somewhere that it sometimes occurs in Briards, but
>> can't remember the source of that information, nor have I
>> been able to verify it.
>
>That's new to me. Got to remeber that.
As I said, I'm not entirely convinced about it either. Still,
considering the complexities of this breed at the A locus,
I wouldn't rule it out either.
Speaking of the A locus, I do know of a litter in which
two Briards with overlays--that is, black-saddled--produced
three sable puppies. What do you make of that? (Incidentally
this was the litter my Patience came from, so I knew it well.
Like both her parents, she also has the black-saddled pattern.)
>GSD has recessive black, right. Shelties have it too, and there is one case
>when a black and white Collie was born from two normal colored parents, so
>it was either a recessive black or a mutation. Lapponian Herder has
>recessive black, and most probably Finnish Lapphund has it too (but I don't
>have enough breeding statistics yet to prove it). And there are solid
>blacks from two normal grey Swedish Vallhunds (Vatsgotaspets), so that
>breed, which is related to Corgis, has recessive black. Belgian Shepherds
>are said to have it, but I'm not yet 100 % sure about it. And I have
>recently heard of one case in Pomeranians and another in Mittelspitzes
>which probably mean that these breeds have recessive black - but that is
>about that. No proven cases from other breeds.
Thank you!
>> You mean a drop coat rather than a stand-off coat? That
>> seems very odd to me. Drop coat is a combination of ll
>> and Wh? What about silky drop coats like on the Maltese?
>> I'm having a hard time getting all this straight in my
>> head; I guess I haven't had enough coffee yet this
>> morning :-).
>
>I've never heard that term "drop coat" - you mean coat like Bearded Collie,
>long all over?
Yes--long coat that tends to part and hang from the middle of
the back. In addition to Beardies, there's also Briards, Yorkshire
Terriers, Maltese, and so on. Standoff coat is like Samoyeds,
Rough Collies, and so on.
Oh! And then there are Afghans, which are drop-coated but smooth-
faced, and have relatively hairless tails. They are presumably
different than everything else.
>The Wh "wire coat" gene doesn't actually cause wiry, hard coat but it
>causes all of the coat to be sligthly longer tan normal and it causes extra
>hair on the body parts which are normally very smooth, like face and paws.
So then are all fuzzy-faced dogs Wh?
>A combination of Wh and ll long coat give LOTS of coat all over the dog,
>and no smooth face but a very hairy face. If there are enough "silky, flat,
>straight" modifiers, you should get a Maltese coat. With "hard, fluffy,
>not-that-long" you should get a Briard coat.
Hmmm... why do you say "not that long" for Briards? One of the
things we are seeing more & more of is extremely long coats--
long enough that the belly coat almost touches the ground.
Probably modifiers, I think. The original dogs had much shorter,
scruffier hair. (No farmer would put up with the coats of
today!!)
Oh--here's another one for you: Pyrenean Shepherds (aka Berger
des Pyrenees)--what do you make of them?
It is always so interesting to talk to you.
Dianne
Shelly & The Boys
"dianne marie schoenberg" <dia...@u.washington.edu> wrote in message
news:bk7ir9$17r0$1...@nntp3.u.washington.edu...
>
> So then are all fuzzy-faced dogs Wh?
But what about...<see comment below!>
> Oh--here's another one for you: Pyrenean Shepherds (aka Berger
> des Pyrenees)--what do you make of them?
That was my next question. From what Matt's said (I do not know
for fact, having only ever seen ONE IRL), the smooth faced PyrSheps
are not as common as the fuzzy faced. Which, would make
sense, according to Liisa's statements. But, there are the smooth
faced Pyr Sheps, and other than that, they're coats seem the same.
And, please explain the recessive black gene in terms of
Belgians, so a layperson (ie. genetic dummy) can understand.
As in, multiple generations of the Tervuren colored dogs throwing
an unexpected black pup? (Knowing of a recent litter, dammit, not
remember the names or even the breeder for certain right now!
Puppy girl named Xica--black from Terv parents)
And Dianne...if you take a look on the Belgian pedigree website,
you'll see that the dogs have (G) or (T) behind their names. Obviously,
this is for Groenendael or Tervuren. Now...and I asked the
website owner out of curiosity, why some have an asterisk beside
the (G*) or (T*), and guess it was because somewhere they'd thrown
off-colored puppies. I was surprised, but I was correct.
(I was proud of myself, she said that only two other people mentioned
and determined that themselves)
>
> It is always so interesting to talk to you.
Yes, even if I'm still trying to digest & learn!
Shelly & The Boys
Rocky
>> Oh--here's another one for you: Pyrenean Shepherds (aka
>> Berger des Pyrenees)--what do you make of them?
>
> That was my next question. From what Matt's said (I do
> not know for fact, having only ever seen ONE IRL), the
> smooth faced PyrSheps are not as common as the fuzzy faced.
Trust me to prefer the less common variety.
I like this thread.
--
--Matt. Rocky's a Dog.
Liisa Sarakontu
news:bk7ir9$17r0$1...@nntp3.u.washington.edu:
> Speaking of the A locus, I do know of a litter in which
> two Briards with overlays--that is, black-saddled--produced
> three sable puppies. What do you make of that? (Incidentally
> this was the litter my Patience came from, so I knew it well.
> Like both her parents, she also has the black-saddled pattern.)
I have seen just sable and black/grey Briards, never saddled ones. Do you
have pics? But the best possibility is that the "saddled" dogs (or at
least one of them) are not saddled but sable with heavy overlay and due to
that and the coat type they look like real saddles.
> Oh! And then there are Afghans, which are drop-coated but smooth-
> faced, and have relatively hairless tails. They are presumably
> different than everything else.
Afghans look weird, but their coat still is probably just an extreme case
of "normal long whwh ll" coat. Just recently saw pics of a Greyhound x
Afghan cross, and it had totally short coat.
> So then are all fuzzy-faced dogs Wh?
Yup. Or something else, if there is a separate Poodle gene. But every type
of known fuzzy-face is dominant to smooth face and so they could be caused
by the same dominant gene.
> Hmmm... why do you say "not that long" for Briards? One of the
> things we are seeing more & more of is extremely long coats--
I'm probably more used in seeing pet Briards, which have a rather "natural"
coat. And perhaps European show Briards have shorter coats than their
American brethren? That coat length difference between Euro and US
bloodlines can easily be seen for example in English Springers. Even your
smooth Collies have much longer coat than ours! (But that is probably due
to your dogs being nearly always heterozygotes Ll when our smooths are more
often homozygotes LL.)
> Oh--here's another one for you: Pyrenean Shepherds (aka Berger
> des Pyrenees)--what do you make of them?
"Smooth" Pyr Sheps are normal long-coated dogs whwh ll and rough Pyr Sheps
are Wh- ll. The coat just isn't that long and it is somewhat curly and also
sticks out from body at least a little. I have never seen a smooth Pyr
except in photos, I don't know if we have them in Finland. Rough Pyrs are
bred here.
Liisa
Liisa Sarakontu
> And, please explain the recessive black gene in terms of
> Belgians, so a layperson (ie. genetic dummy) can understand.
A locus controls the amount of black "over" a tan/yellow coat. There are
several alleles in A locus, and the more dominant ones tend to allow just
very little black and the more recessive ones allow much more black. The
canine A locus is not fully known, but it could be something like this:
Ay - dominant yellow aka sable
A - wild-type pattern aka wolf pattern
at - tanpoint aka black and tan
a - recessive black
(But remember, this is just theory. Recessive black is right there in mice,
rats, rabbits, cats and horses so it probably is there in dogs too but
other theories have been suggested as well, like modified tanpoint.)
Dominant black is caused by a gene in another locus, K, and when a dog has
KK or Kk genotype it is solid black no matter what it has in A locus
(except when it is ee or when the seal genetics are involved or... But
let's forget these now. Right now we have just K locus and A locus.) Only
when a dog is kk, the A locus pattern is visible.
Normal Groens are KK or Kk and have AyAy in their A locus. When two Kk dogs
are bred, you can get kk AyAy pups which show their sable coat color. But
not all sables are homozygous AyAy, some carry the lower A locus alleles
and are Ayat or Aya instead of AyAy. Ayat genotype is on average darker,
slightly more shaded than AyAy, but the shading varies a lot and you can't
be sure by just looking at the phenotype what is "hidden" there.
When two Ayat sable dogs are bred, you can get atat tanpoint pups and when
two Aya sables are bred, you can get aa recessive black pup. If you just
see a black dog, you can't tell if its genotype is K- or kk aa just by
looking at it. You have to study its pedigree and offspring to figure that
out. And naturally, you can also check the breed. If it is GSD or Sheltie,
it has to be recessive black and if it is Labrador, it most probably is
dominant black.
Two dominant blacks can get about any possible canine color pattern
combining black and tan/yellow in their litters when bred together, as can
be every now and then seen in litters of black Mudis (wolf-colored pups),
black Labradors (yes, they get tanpoint pups too) and Dalmatians (brindle-
spotted Dals!) but two recessive blacks can't get pups which show both
black and tan in their coats as they can't hide any genes making those
patterns.
> As in, multiple generations of the Tervuren colored dogs throwing
> an unexpected black pup? (Knowing of a recent litter, dammit, not
> remember the names or even the breeder for certain right now!
> Puppy girl named Xica--black from Terv parents)
As there are Tervs with nearly no black shading and Tervs with so much
shading that they look half black, you can't tell from the looks of a Terv
if it is AyAy, Ayat or Aya. In this case there have probably been Aya Tervs
in that bloodline for a long time, but they have been rather rare and so
two such dogs haven't been bred to each others - until now. Recessive genes
can be carried nearly forever under dominants and then they just suddenly
pop up and surprise everybody!
Liisa
Shelly & The Boys
"Rocky" <2p...@rocky-dog.com> wrote in message
news:Xns93F8C8C572937au...@rocky-dog.com...
> Shelly & The Boys said in rec.pets.dogs.breeds:
>
> >> Oh--here's another one for you: Pyrenean Shepherds (aka
> >> Berger des Pyrenees)--what do you make of them?
> >
> > That was my next question. From what Matt's said (I do
> > not know for fact, having only ever seen ONE IRL), the
> > smooth faced PyrSheps are not as common as the fuzzy faced.
>
> Trust me to prefer the less common variety.
Here's a question for you:
I was discussing Pyr Sheps and Mudi's with a friend that
has seen a good number of both, here and in Europe.
When I brought up the Mudi, she wrinkled up her nose and
said, "They're cute, but I've never met one that didn't
smell terribly!"
So...what is your experience with Mudis? More than your
average herding dog low-smelly factor?
>
> I like this thread.
Me too...but I'm swaying off topic. Just one small question, please!
Shelly & The Boys
Liisa Sarakontu
> When I brought up the Mudi, she wrinkled up her nose and
> said, "They're cute, but I've never met one that didn't
> smell terribly!"
Oh? I have met just a few Mudis personally, and I didn't notice any weird
smell. There are Mudi owners and breeders on the Finnish genetics mailing
list, and when we recently discussed Mudi colors, nobody mentioned smell.
Some Mudi people are rather upset that merle is now accepted color and
claim that the first merle Mudi was a Sheltie cross. Anyway, it was
registered as Mudi and it and its offspring are very Mudi-looking, do well
in show ring and even work like any good Mudi. I think that somebody even
mentioned that a merle won a big herding trial.
By the way, there are pure white, red-eyed Mudis, probably true albinos!
They are often put down at birth just "because they are albinos and
EVERYBODY knows that albino is bad" and the rest are placed in pet homes
and never bred. Still, there are yet no reports of bad things happening
with these albinos, they don't seem to be blind, deaf, bald or bad-
tempered.
Liisa
Shelly & The Boys
> "Shelly & The Boys" <sn...@BADBOYSpacifier.com> wrote in
> news:vmgjarj...@corp.supernews.com:
>
> > When I brought up the Mudi, she wrinkled up her nose and
> > said, "They're cute, but I've never met one that didn't
> > smell terribly!"
>
> Oh? I have met just a few Mudis personally, and I didn't notice any weird
> smell. There are Mudi owners and breeders on the Finnish genetics mailing
> list, and when we recently discussed Mudi colors, nobody mentioned smell.
That is good. I have never met any in person, and need to get
myself to a rare breed show out here so I can.
>
> Some Mudi people are rather upset that merle is now accepted color and
> claim that the first merle Mudi was a Sheltie cross. Anyway, it was
> registered as Mudi and it and its offspring are very Mudi-looking, do well
> in show ring and even work like any good Mudi. I think that somebody >even
mentioned that a merle won a big herding trial.
Hmmm. Well, I suppose rumors will come up when something
like a merle had never appeared in the breed before!
BTW...I found the website I was looking for re: Belgian Shepherds.
http://www.users.bigpond.com/belgianshepherds/Colour%20Inheritance.htm
Shelly & The Boys
dianne marie schoenberg
>Shelly & The Boys said in rec.pets.dogs.breeds:
>
>>> Oh--here's another one for you: Pyrenean Shepherds (aka
>>> Berger des Pyrenees)--what do you make of them?
>>
>> That was my next question. From what Matt's said (I do
>> not know for fact, having only ever seen ONE IRL), the
>> smooth faced PyrSheps are not as common as the fuzzy faced.
>
>Trust me to prefer the less common variety.
You probably just dislike wet beards in your lap :-).
Dianne
dianne marie schoenberg
>dia...@u.washington.edu (dianne marie schoenberg) wrote in
>news:bk7ir9$17r0$1...@nntp3.u.washington.edu:
>
>> Speaking of the A locus, I do know of a litter in which
>> two Briards with overlays--that is, black-saddled--produced
>> three sable puppies. What do you make of that? (Incidentally
>> this was the litter my Patience came from, so I knew it well.
>> Like both her parents, she also has the black-saddled pattern.)
>
>I have seen just sable and black/grey Briards, never saddled ones. Do you
>have pics?
Absolutely. My girl Patience (with a wet beard :-)) is at
http://www.dbfields.com/deschamps/pat.JPEG
The colors aren't good in that picture, but she is actually
black & tan with a graying gene and tan undercoat beneath
the gray.
We also have clear tan (Ay-); see
http://www.briards-fr.com/images/briards/lakmee_carrieres_noires.jpg
This is the (greatly) preferred color in Europe now--there
dogs with overlays have been disqualified since around 1970
even though they were accepted prior to that.
>But the best possibility is that the "saddled" dogs (or at least
>one of them) are not saddled but sable with heavy overlay and due
>to that and the coat type they look like real saddles.
That seems very possible, and is backed up by the fact that
puppies can be born with saddles and turn sable within a
few months. On the other hand, in adults there is a distinct
division between the what we call "charbonne" (sable) and
the "bicolors" (as the French call them with great distaste).
>> Hmmm... why do you say "not that long" for Briards? One of the
>> things we are seeing more & more of is extremely long coats--
>
>I'm probably more used in seeing pet Briards, which have a rather "natural"
>coat. And perhaps European show Briards have shorter coats than their
>American brethren?
No--in general the European coats are longer than American
ones, and the longest we see here are out of imports or
European/American crosses.
Of course, once I wrote this I had trouble finding pictures
to back it up! I do know that some Briards have their
undersides trimmed to avoid this look. But try these:
http://www.briards-fr.com/images/briards/simba_maison_suzie.jpg
http://www.briards-fr.com/images/briards/aimee_mont_cerise.jpg
http://www.larwass.com/coastline/pedigrees/photos/camel.jpg
If you compare those to the historical photos at
http://www.briards-fr.com/images/divers/foto107.jpg
you will see how much coats have lengthened over time.
I've also got detailed records from the French stud
book before the words for color was standardized, and
then the color descriptions were far more detailed
than now. Perhaps if I sent you some of those you
would tell me which interpretations made the most
sense? I have heard way too many explanations of
color genetics in this breed that I think are wrong,
particularly with regard to the A locus. It would
be very nice to have another opinion on the subject.
Dianne
Rocky
> So...what is your experience with Mudis? More than your
> average herding dog low-smelly factor?
I know 8 Mudis and have been very close with a few of them. I
certainly didn't find them smelly.
Rocky
>>Trust me to prefer the less common variety.
>
> You probably just dislike wet beards in your lap :-)
Yup - Rocky's slobbery enough.
BTW, I just picked up Padgett's genetics book, though I haven't
had a chance to crack the cover.
Liisa Sarakontu
> I have never met any in person, and need to get
> myself to a rare breed show out here so I can.
Or travel to Europe and go to any big FCI show!
> Hmmm. Well, I suppose rumors will come up when something
> like a merle had never appeared in the breed before!
There are still non-pedigreed landrace herding dogs in Hungary, and Mudi-
looking specimens are even nowadays shown to a judge group and registered,
if they meet the criteria. I think that the first merle Mudi was registered
like this, and at least one of its parents wasn't a registeted Mudi. So
merle just didn't "pop up", it came outside of the known, registered
population but as it is with dominant colors, one dog was enough to import
it to the breed gene pool.
Just very recently Mudis were supposed to be just black and perhaps brown,
nothing else. Now the standard has been changed so that some other colors
are accepted too, like that merle, blue, masked fako (= clear sable with
black muzzle) and fako (recessive yellow).
> BTW...I found the website I was looking for re: Belgian Shepherds.
> http://www.users.bigpond.com/belgianshepherds/Colour%20Inheritance.htm
Cute little pics, but sadly the real pattern names or real gene names are
not used. Also one mistake, third last breeding should give just recessive
blacks and no sables carrying rec. black. The page (like all the other
Belgian color pages I've seen) doesn't "know" that dominant black isn't in
A locus.
Other Belgian color pages listed in my collection:
http://www.belgiandogs.org/gengilesbsd.htm
http://www.malinut.com/write/voodoo.shtml
And the whole link collection is here:
http://www.hut.fi/~lsarakon/collinks.html
Liisa
Liisa Sarakontu
> Absolutely. My girl Patience (with a wet beard :-)) is at
> http://www.dbfields.com/deschamps/pat.JPEG
Looks really like a true saddle, but that long coat can be very confusing
and even a dog like this might actually be a very heavily shaded sable.
> We also have clear tan (Ay-); see
> http://www.briards-fr.com/images/briards/lakmee_carrieres_noires.jpg
> This is the (greatly) preferred color in Europe now--there
> dogs with overlays have been disqualified since around 1970
> even though they were accepted prior to that.
Wait a minute, I'll go and check the Finnish standard (which is always a
straight translation from FCI standard)... Yes, it really allows just clear
reddish sables and all shades of black and grey. Heavily shaded dogs or too
pale fawns are not ok.
> puppies can be born with saddles and turn sable within a
> few months.
Actually saddles don't turn into sables, but
1. sables are sometimes born with so heavy shading especially on back that
they look more black than tan, and they turn paler when growing up
2. In several breeds there is a dominant grizzle-type gene, which turns
black saddle into a grizzle saddle, sometimes very pale.
> On the other hand, in adults there is a distinct
> division between the what we call "charbonne" (sable) and
> the "bicolors" (as the French call them with great distaste).
"Bicolor" means black and tan or saddle in this case? The Finnish standard
also mentions that "bicolor" is a disqualifying color, but it doesn't say
which two colors that word means.
> If you compare those to the historical photos at
> http://www.briards-fr.com/images/divers/foto107.jpg
> you will see how much coats have lengthened over time.
Yes, certainly.
> I've also got detailed records from the French stud
> book before the words for color was standardized, and
> then the color descriptions were far more detailed
> than now. Perhaps if I sent you some of those you
> would tell me which interpretations made the most
> sense? I have heard way too many explanations of
> color genetics in this breed that I think are wrong,
> particularly with regard to the A locus. It would
> be very nice to have another opinion on the subject.
But those are in French, I'm afraid. Sure, I'm a European and I can speak
several languages, but French isn't one of them! I chose more mathematics
at school when half of my classmates started reading French. They told such
terrible stories about those lessons that I never dared to try that
language. Just Finnish, English, Swedish and some German. But if you have
good English translations, I might try.
Liisa
Shelly & The Boys
> "Shelly & The Boys" <sn...@BADBOYSpacifier.com> wrote in
> news:vmgql55...@corp.supernews.com:
>
> > I have never met any in person, and need to get
> > myself to a rare breed show out here so I can.
>
> Or travel to Europe and go to any big FCI show!
Aaah, maybe one day!
> Just very recently Mudis were supposed to be just black and perhaps brown,
> nothing else. Now the standard has been changed so that some other colors
> are accepted too, like that merle, blue, masked fako (= clear sable with
> black muzzle) and fako (recessive yellow).
Interesting...do you know of any websites that show photos of
the non brown & black (I thought that was just the only colors they
came in).
>
> > BTW...I found the website I was looking for re: Belgian Shepherds.
> > http://www.users.bigpond.com/belgianshepherds/Colour%20Inheritance.htm
>
> Cute little pics, but sadly the real pattern names or real gene names are
> not used. Also one mistake, third last breeding should give just recessive
> blacks and no sables carrying rec. black. The page (like all the other
> Belgian color pages I've seen) doesn't "know" that dominant black isn't in
> A locus.
>
Yes, I noticed that afterward. Use of the real pattern/gene names
is what I'm after. That is the part that is confusing for me (well,
after I learn that, I am sure there will be more!). It's sort of like
learning a foreign language, because well, it is quite foreign to
me. :-)
> Other Belgian color pages listed in my collection:
> http://www.belgiandogs.org/gengilesbsd.htm
> http://www.malinut.com/write/voodoo.shtml
Thank you for those! I've seen the Malinut page before, and
have looked through that article (It is one of my favorite sites
for Mals).
>
> And the whole link collection is here:
> http://www.hut.fi/~lsarakon/collinks.html
And I know I have that one!
Thanks!
Shelly & The Boys
Liisa Sarakontu
>> Or travel to Europe and go to any big FCI show!
> Aaah, maybe one day!
There will be a BIG show in Helsinki, Finland in the beginning of December.
Let's go together there :-)
> Interesting...do you know of any websites that show photos of
> the non brown & black (I thought that was just the only colors they
> came in).
Sure I know!
Here is a Finnish page about some colors. Most of the text is also
translated into English. Pics of black, brown, blue, lilac ("isabella",
looks brown to me), merle, brown merle, pale cream ("fako") and white dogs.
http://www.netikka.net/laitinen/mudi/varit.htm
yellow (fako) Mudis:
http://www.geocities.com/cybermudi/fako_mudi.htm
white Mudi:
http://www.geocities.com/cybermudi/whitemudiweb.htm
wolf-colored Mudi:
http://koti.mbnet.fi/hiutale/kuva_potretti.htm
wolf-colored, yellow and black:
http://koti.mbnet.fi/hiutale/kuva_mudiklubi.htm
Liisa
Ivana M.
> dia...@u.washington.edu (dianne marie schoenberg) wrote in
> news:bk7ir9$17r0$1...@nntp3.u.washington.edu:
> > So then are all fuzzy-faced dogs Wh?
>
> Yup. Or something else, if there is a separate Poodle gene. But every type
> of known fuzzy-face is dominant to smooth face and so they could be caused
> by the same dominant gene.
Not quite. Wh is that strange fellow, dominant with variable (or was that
incomplete?) penetration, this is a heterozigotous dog:
http://cmell.tripod.com/Alpha_1.jpg, he has only the tiniest fuzz of beard
around the lips (hard to see on the pictures), and this is mum:
http://cmell.tripod.com/barak/Bara02.jpg (a purebred). And I'll eat my
[whatever] if anybody guess what breed is his father.
--
Ivana Marinkovic |"After the first four years
Zagreb, Croatia | the dirt does not get any worse."
Http://www.iridis.com/ivanam | --Quentin Crisp
Liisa Sarakontu
news:bkdbor$2ij$1...@ls219.htnet.hr:
> Not quite. Wh is that strange fellow, dominant with variable (or was
> that incomplete?) penetration, this is a heterozigotous dog:
> http://cmell.tripod.com/Alpha_1.jpg, he has only the tiniest fuzz of
> beard around the lips (hard to see on the pictures), and this is mum:
> http://cmell.tripod.com/barak/Bara02.jpg (a purebred). And I'll eat my
> [whatever] if anybody guess what breed is his father.
I couldn't figure out the breed of the dam, so I had to cheat and look at
your main page. The breed name Barak still didn't ring a bell, but after
reading the FAQ I realized that this is the Bosnian Wire-coated Hound,
which is listed in every Finnish show catalog under "bosanski ostrodlaki
gonic-barak" (our catalogs always show the full FCI list on one page, even
if all the breeds, like Barak here, have never been imported to Finland).
Baraks seem to be rather long-coated. Could they actually be WhWh ll
instead of WhWh LL? The fist pic really shows a very smooth-looking dog,
and if he is Ll, that could be one reason for his shorter, less wiry coat.
I guess that he is not purebred then? He looks very much like a Retriever,
but perhaps the father is still another hound? Hmm, let's vote for German
Shepherd anyway!
Liisa
Ivana M.
Some baraks could well be *l/l* (the second in
http://cmell.tripod.com/barak/colours.htm is a strong suspect), that's a
soft coat that mats and wraps up thistles, but there's probably more of
softening of the coat due to other modifiers. There was a longhair breed of
scenthounds in Bosnia (the only such anywhere) about 100 years ago, which is
now gone for good, but for some of today's Baraks possibly having *l*. My
guess is that dogs with short hair on the ears (1st and others on the page,
sorry about unfinished condition, I'm still procrustinating on it) are
almost certainly *L/L* or at least *L/l*. There's some *wh* aleles around,
as shorthair pups pop up ocasionally (this makes most dogs *L/-*), and I
suspect that *Wh/wh* has coarser hair, making them more desirable than
homozygotes. Of course that makes *wh* hard to get rid of.
But my hat is safe! The father of the dog from
http://cmell.tripod.com/Alpha_1.jpg is an American Pit Bull Terrier. Not a
planned mating, but witnessed, as this was my mistake (fortunately not many
so far). At least now I know what to do if Pit Bulls get banned in this
country. This dog is more of a houndish character (stubborn :-) and has the
true hound "ow-ow" voice, but that could be refined in a few generations.
On the other alele, if Poodle gene is different from *Wh*, that would cause
some shorthairs in F2 from some, now increasingly popular, crazy crosses?
Liisa Sarakontu
> http://cmell.tripod.com/barak/colours.htm
> My guess is that dogs with short hair on the ears
> (1st and others on the page, sorry about unfinished condition, I'm
> still procrustinating on it) are almost certainly *L/L* or at least
> *L/l*.
Yes, you are probably right. So many European hunting griffon, hound and
basset breeds have a rather similar coat, and they most probably are not ll
either. They just have longish coat due to Wh gene and modifiers. Or
perhaps there are several alleles in Wh locus ahich all give the "hairy"
coat, but some have more effect on coat length than others.
> But my hat is safe! The father of the dog from
> http://cmell.tripod.com/Alpha_1.jpg is an American Pit Bull Terrier.
I would have never guessed that breed!
> On the other alele, if Poodle gene is different from *Wh*, that would
> cause some shorthairs in F2 from some, now increasingly popular, crazy
> crosses?
If Poodle coat gene is separate from Wh gene, Poodles still might be
homozygous for WhWh too. But Poodles have probably been developed from dogs
with this Barak-type coat, and they have been bred for longer, softer,
curlier coat for centuries and so they are "just" WhWh ll and the needed
modifiers.
Liisa