Backyard Breeders

[James D. Tegeder Jr.]

Okay... so just because a person loves their dog, that's enough reason to breed?
Here's something to consider: reasons such as this are a large part of why so
many dogs are dumped and euthanised in shelters. Add to that, showing the kids
the miracle of birth, allowing the dog to experience motherhood, and breeding for
profit and I think you've about covered it. It's also a large part of why many
dogs develop serious hereditary health problems. I heartily disagree with you
that these people are not bad breeders. They may be good people, but they are
bad breeders. Loving a breed isn't enough... loving it and wanting to *further*
it is the only legitimate reason for breeder. Otherwise, you're just putting
more puppies out there that may or may not be healthy for people to pick up on a
whim when there are thousands upon thousands in shelters already. And I also
have to disagree with you about the "advantage" you noted. I would not buy from
a breeder if his/her dogs were not treated as loved family pets -- even if the
health clearances were the best I'd seen. I imagine it's rare that a person who
truly cares about their breed just buys a "bitch" or a "stud" and "lets them
serve their purpose". In fact, I'd go so far as to say the opposite of your
statement is true in that I'm willing to bet that when a BYB buys a dog to
supplement income, they're usually buying just a "bitch" or a "stud" and the
welfare and sociability of the dog comes second while responsible breeders (not
to be read all show breeders, btw) are the people who treat their dogs as members
of the family.

Amber Smith
jd...@ix.netcom.com

Mspease5 wrote:

> At a major risk of being attacked I have to vent. I am so tired of hearing a
> stereotypical assumption of a so called backyard breeder. I am sorry, but
> there are many people who breed their own pet dogs at home because they have
> come to love the breed. Yes, maybe it does supplement a very small $ amount
> for them, but just because they are normal people does not make them a bad
> breeder. Not everyone breeds from huge elaborate kennels. Also, these
> backyard breeders may have an advantage in that their dogs are pets and
> ussually raised with the family as opposed to someone buying a "bitch" or a
> "stud" and letting that dog just serve that purpose.
>
> My hat is off to ALL responsible breeders, werever they may be found, as long
> as they do it with care, education, and caution!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
>
> Do not e-mail me personally, please.

[dej...@webtv.net]

Let me tell you what bothers me about BYBer's. The conversation goes
like this...We know you are a show breeder, but we just breed our 2 pets
because we love the breed. These 2 pets most often are a poor
representation of the breed standard. But because they are breeding
"just pets" they feel the standard means zero to them. The standard for
Yorkies is quite clear..NOT to exceed 7 pounds, but I know BYBer's using
10 and 12 pound studs. Ears down and wool coats. When you truly love a
breed, you have no desire to destroy it. You want to breed the finest,
healthiest animal humanly possible..there is no other reason to breed
but to improve...the world is full of poorly bred Yorkies. DeJune
PS: And I socialize my puppies..they are raised in the house along with
the family..lots of love and attention. Time consuming, YES, but that is
what it takes to produce a well adjusted Yorkie.

[Mspease5]

[Andrea Stone]

Mspease5 <mspe...@aol.com> wrote in article
<19980211005...@ladder02.news.aol.com>...

> At a major risk of being attacked I have to vent. I am so tired of
hearing a
> stereotypical assumption of a so called backyard breeder. I am sorry,
but
> there are many people who breed their own pet dogs at home because they
have
> come to love the breed. Yes, maybe it does supplement a very small $
amount
> for them, but just because they are normal people does not make them a
bad
> breeder. Not everyone breeds from huge elaborate kennels. Also, these
> backyard breeders may have an advantage in that their dogs are pets and
> ussually raised with the family as opposed to someone buying a "bitch" or
a
> "stud" and letting that dog just serve that purpose.

Mspease,

I am not flaming you, but think you misunderstand the term "back yard
breeder". Most of the people who advertise their "stud dogs" on this news
group either dont know any better, or do fall into the generalized meaning
of "back yard breeder", which is really a misnomer, and should be called
"casual breeder" (as in someone who does not think breeding a major
responsibility) or "irresponsible breeder". Most of us have back yards! <g>

When used in a breed/breeding forum, the term "back yard breeder" doesn't
really refer to your average nice person breeding nice healthy happy dogs
because they love the breed, and they just have a back yard. Heck, that
would describe me pretty well, as well as most other breeders. Most
"breeders" these days DO NOT have extensive kennels, but a just a few,
carefully chosen animals, who are well loved pets, in addition to being
show dogs, working dogs, or whatever. We use the terms "stud dog" and
"brood bitch", just as someone in horses would use the terms "brood mare"
and "stud" or "stallion" or "gelding".

What I (and I assume most of the other fanciers here do too) do take
exception to are people who do not educate themselves about their chosen
breed, do not study their animals' pedigrees, and do not do any health
testing. They figure "I've got an AKC registered dog, and so does my
neighbor down the street. I bet I could make a lot of money, and the kids
can play with puppies if we breed them." They do not think about the dogs
they are producing, aside from it'll be "fun" and they'll make some cash.
This is usually what is meant when using the term "back yard breeder". It
does not even occur to them to consider that they could be producing pups
doomed to blindness, dysplasia, or other maladies. A person who cares, but
just doesn't know about this stuff, once it's brought to their attention,
will usually take the time to learn or decide that breeding isn't for them.
( I have run into people like this, and commend them on their love for
their dog!)

Then there is the other faction that doesn't give a damn.

*Showing does not a responsible breeder make.* If you love your breed,
study it to make sure you know what you're doing when you breed. Make sure
that you will be producing animals that have as small a chance as becoming
sick due to inherited disease as possible. To do this, you need to know
your dog's family "medical" history - eye tests, hip tests, plus any number
of other issues particular to your breed of choice.

You do not need to show dogs, to know a good quality dog, that adheres
closely to the ideal of that breed when you see one.

You do not need to show dogs to be informed about hereditary disorders in
the breed.

You do not need to show dogs to know about all the dogs behind yours.

Anything less is doing your dog, the puppies you produce, the people who
own and love those puppies, and the breed a disservice. If you think me a
snob, or any other form of elitist for feeling so, that is your right.

Just my two bits.
--
-Andrea Stone
Saorsa Basenjis
Shane (Am & UCI Int'l Ch Cin Jas Shane Come Back)
Delphi (UCI Int'l Ch Etukon Triumph of the Oracle, JC)
Fancy (Ibizan Hound, Gryphon's Flight of Fancy)

[blac...@dog-play.com]

Mspease5 <mspe...@aol.com> wrote:
: At a major risk of being attacked I have to vent. I am so tired of hearing a

: stereotypical assumption of a so called backyard breeder. I am sorry, but
: there are many people who breed their own pet dogs at home because they have
: come to love the breed. Yes, maybe it does supplement a very small $ amount
: for them, but just because they are normal people does not make them a bad
: breeder. Not everyone breeds from huge elaborate kennels. Also, these

Yeah, every so often someone takes the term "backyard breeder" literally.
It isn't meant to be literal. The term denotes someone who breeds
carelessly, without thought about genetic health, sound temperament,
proper placement, attention to meeting the expectation of the buyer
(i.e. knowledge about breed standard), and the goal of doing something
beyond producing puppies.

: backyard breeders may have an advantage in that their dogs are pets and

: ussually raised with the family as opposed to someone buying a "bitch" or a
: "stud" and letting that dog just serve that purpose.

: My hat is off to ALL responsible breeders, werever they may be found, as long

: as they do it with care, education, and caution!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Right. But they are not "backyard breeders" - I know the term is
confusing. We have had long discussions about changing it, but the term
sticks because it has such a nice perjorative sound, like "puppy mill."
On my breeder's ethics site I have a link to a site that discussed the
terminology in detail. http://www.dog-play.com/ethics.html

Diane Blackman
di...@dog-play.com http://www.dog-play.com/
- - - - - - - -
"The nature of reinforcement and its timing and delivery are essential for
a dog trainer to master." "Smart Trainers -- Brilliant Dogs" by Janet
Lewis

[Lisa Baird]

blac...@dog-play.com wrote:

> Yeah, every so often someone takes the term "backyard breeder" literally.
> It isn't meant to be literal. The term denotes someone who breeds
> carelessly, without thought about genetic health, sound temperament,
> proper placement, attention to meeting the expectation of the buyer
> (i.e. knowledge about breed standard), and the goal of doing something
> beyond producing puppies.

I like the term someone around here used awhile back (Avrama, maybe?). It was
"mis-breeder". My litter from OFA'd, CERF'd, ERG'd, Storage tested 4 solid
genreations of champions, agility titled dogs is due in 3 weeks. If the weather is
nice enough, guess what! They'll spend time in my back yard! (and my kitchen, my
living room, underfoot about everywhere! <VBG>)

--
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Lisa Baird Want to learn more about Portuguese Water Dogs,
Haleakala PWD's Dog Agility, or just dogs, in general? Visit my
Dublin, Oh. Home Page and see the Haleakala PWD's, and visit
lba...@infinet.com many dog related web sites from my links!
http://www.infinet.com/~lbaird
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

[Mspease5]

No, I don't think you a snob. I appreciate your very well written response.
You did clear up for me what people here consider a backyard breeder, and by
your terms, I agree with you. I guess I needed it clarified for me as some
prior posts did come across as snobbery, etc.

So, I thank you. You did help me out in your definitions and descriptions, as
well as help some people rethink whether they should breed or not.

Melinda

[Lori]

Andrea,

I think the confusion comes from the term "backyard breeder." Just because
one does one's dog breeding in the backyard doesn't mean they are a
backyard breeder. As a local kennel club officer and breeder referral
contact, most of the excellent breeders I know *do* breed in their back
yards from modest facilities. I don't even *know* anyone with an elaborate
kennel. I like to use the term "hobby breeder" for a responsible,
small-scale at-home breeder, and "backyard breeder" for the bozos who think
they can breed "Bowzer" and "Fluffy" because they both "have papers" and
make a ton of money. They know zip about the breed standard, have no idea
how their dog measures up, other than he is "nice." They don't take on any
"unnecessary" expenses like genetic testing, and as a result, the pups have
a very high likelihood of having serious problems.

So, don't take the term "backyard breeder" too literally. It refers to an
attitude and mindset, not a location.

Lori
--
Ripley's Retrieve-It-Or-Not
http://www.geocities.com/~goldendog
The Official Virginia Lanier Mystery Page
http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Meadows/1442/vlanier.htm
^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^v^
"All knowledge, the totality of all questions
and answers, is contained in the dog."
---Franz Kafka
"Investigations of a Dog"

Mspease5 <mspe...@aol.com> wrote in article
<19980211005...@ladder02.news.aol.com>...

> At a major risk of being attacked I have to vent. I am so tired of
hearing a
> stereotypical assumption of a so called backyard breeder. I am sorry,
but
> there are many people who breed their own pet dogs at home because they
have
> come to love the breed. Yes, maybe it does supplement a very small $
amount
> for them, but just because they are normal people does not make them a
bad
> breeder. Not everyone breeds from huge elaborate kennels. Also, these

> backyard breeders may have an advantage in that their dogs are pets and
> ussually raised with the family as opposed to someone buying a "bitch" or
a
> "stud" and letting that dog just serve that purpose.
>
> My hat is off to ALL responsible breeders, werever they may be found, as
long
> as they do it with care, education, and caution!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
>

[Meinheld]

>"Andrea Stone" <andrea...@sierra.com> quoted

>Mspease5 <mspe...@aol.com>

>> I am so tired of
>>hearing a
>> stereotypical assumption of a so called backyard breeder.<

The backyard breeder has a dog in the backyard and any one wanting to breed is
ok, or any dog that jumps the fence.

The term used for conscciencious breeders who love the breed, are careful and
intelligent in their breeding, take care of the health matters, screenings,
and xrays if needed, etc., is "hobby breeder."

[Meinheld]

>mspe...@aol.com (Mspease5) has written:

>At a major risk of being attacked I have to vent. I am so tired of hearing a

>stereotypical assumption of a so called backyard breeder.

Sorry, but the "backyard breeder" is a term that has been in use to identify
the breeder who has a dog in the back yard and breeds it to any dog that wants
to breed for puppies, or any dog which jumps over the fence.

I believe the term(s) for the consciencious breeder who loves the breed, know
what they are doing, have taken care of the health and x-rays, give guarantees
and just generally breed with intelligence and great care, are termed "hobby
breeders." This is what you describe. I particulary do not like the term, but
I have not heard any other that describes these better.

Having a kennel with many dogs is still no guarantee of good quality, and
buyer beware as with any other purchase, more so with a living creature for
which you are responsible.

[Meinheld]

>"James D. Tegeder Jr." <jd...@ix.netcom.com>

> I heartily disagree with you
>that these people are not bad breeders.

in answer to a posting by > mpease5< :

> > I am so tired of hearing a
>> stereotypical assumption of a so called backyard breeder

JDTJR: the posting from from mpease5 was about the backyard breeder and I
think mpease5 was confused about the term. Backyard breeder is the person who
has a dog tied up in the backyard and is available to any and all dogs that
happen by., or for puppy mills. It is the term for the worst kind of breeder.
It is the breeder you, yourself describe.

The "hobby breeder" is the consciencious breeder, who breeds with
discrimination and care. The "hobby breeder" has saved some breeds from
oblivion. Being a "hobby breeder" myself, I can attest to the fact that there
is no money in it, so you have to love the breed and care about it and care
about where the puppies go, keeping in touch with owners, and all the other
worries that come with careful breeding. Many "hobby breeders" have homes for
potential pups before the breeding occurs.

I think it important that we have a good idea of the definitions before
blasting away at mpease5, who obviously was of the same mindset as you about
good and bad breeders but was unsure of the terms in use currently. And btw,
"show" breeders are not all saints, either.

[Meinheld]

>dej...@webtv.net wrote

>When you truly love a
>breed, you have no desire to destroy it. You want to breed the finest,
>healthiest animal humanly possible..there is no other reason to breed
>but to improve...

And this is the difference between a backyard breeder who doesn't care at all,
and a "hobby breeder" who does.

[Liliane & Theo Klever]

I live in the Netherlands. Here you are a good breeder if you breed your
dogs at home. Then the puppies have a good start, they are good socialized.
They know what human beings are.
My mother breeds Kooikerhondjes. And we just have 1 litter a year. We don't
breed for profit, for money. We breed to make the Kooikerhondjes a good and
healthy breed, we breed so people can have a nice puppy who has made contact
with all different things. We take our puppies to the supermarket, so many
people can hug them, so they are not afraid.
I don't say breeders who have many dogs in kennels are bad breeders, but I
think they can't give every dog the attention they need. It's hard to
socialize 5 puppies from 1 litter, so how difficult must it be to socialize
100 puppies from 20 litters?

Mspease5 heeft geschreven in bericht
<19980211005...@ladder02.news.aol.com>...
>At a major risk of being attacked I have to vent. I am so tired of hearing
a

[Lisa Baird]

> >Mspease5 <mspe...@aol.com>

>
> >> I am so tired of
> >>hearing a
> >> stereotypical assumption of a so called backyard breeder.<

Okay, since you've heard several opinions now on OUR definition of "BYB", what
stereotypes have you heard and what do YOU think a BYB means, or what do you think
others mean by it, that prompted this question?

[Mspease5]

Okay, what prompted the post was something in the GSD thread about returning
the GSD. I can't quote, but there were numerous references to BYB's that
seemed so derogatory. And, there have been others that have given the
impression that if you didn't have an elaborate kennel or if you weren't an
extensive show participater, then you were no worthy to breed.

As I said, this was impression and all of you have straightened me out on the
terminology and I'm grateful. I do think that what I have been mixing up is
backyard breeder and hobby breeder. What I thought everyone labeled a BYB is
actually a hobby breeder.

Thank Y'all!!!!
Melinda
JRT's, big dog in a little package

[Lisa Baird]

Mspease5 wrote:

> As I said, this was impression and all of you have straightened me out on the
> terminology and I'm grateful. I do think that what I have been mixing up is
> backyard breeder and hobby breeder. What I thought everyone labeled a BYB is
> actually a hobby breeder.

Glad you've got a clearere picture of what's going on now. <g> Personally, I
think those of us (hobby breeders) who breed occasionally, for specific reasons
(myself, I have dogs who not only excel in the breed ring, but performance areas
as well) have more time to spend with the families who buy our puppies, for the
rest of their lives. The *big* kennels who spend all their time just caring
(cleaning, training, grooming,etc.) a whole kennel full of dogs, weekends on the
road, etc. often DO produce nice temperaments, health dogs, good specimans of the
breed, etc. but they rarely have that feeling of joining a "family" when you buy
from them. My first litter is now 3 1/2 years old, and I am still in contact with
the owners (spread all over the country) and call me when they have questions or
problems. Those big kennels are also much less likely to spend time competing in
anything other than the bered ring, so I have a list of poeple who want
performance PWD's from me, because mine actually DO work. <g>

[Tyken024]

My opinion of backyard breeders goes like this
1. puts two dogs together, not knowing if they
compliment each or not..
2. does not do any health tests, cerf, ofa for starters
3. does not properly screen potential buyers
4. will not take a dog back if something does
not work out with the owners.
5. does not do any kind tests like field trials, obedience,
temperment tests and or conformation. a simple
CGC is not hard to work for.

i do not classify someone a backyard breeder
if the have read everything they can on the breed,
called people and have a mentor, does health tests,
properly screen buyers and is responsible for the
pup for ITS ENTIRE LIFE.

It really does not matter WHERE the pups are
born. A huge kennel does not mean quality, it
could mean a commercial breeder which i won't
go off on my soapbox on THOSE people in
this comment. Great breed examples can
and have been born in someone's house, most
of the time in the kitchen.
The most important thing is to be protector's of
their breed and try to educate others to do so
in return.

Tyra
Tyken Siberians-educate yourself before you buy a dog

Dogs give unconditional love, they deserve the same in return

[Andrea Stone]

Melinda,

I think we can seem snobby, etc., at times to the "uninitiated". Especially
in this type of forum, where there is no body language, tone of voice, or
eye contact.

I'm glad I could help clear up the term as it is generally used. I just get
upset over people breeding "willy-nilly", as do many other dog lovers up
here.

All the best!

--
-Andrea Stone
Saorsa Basenjis
Shane (Am & UCI Int'l Ch Cin Jas Shane Come Back)
Delphi (UCI Int'l Ch Etukon Triumph of the Oracle, JC)
Fancy (Ibizan Hound, Gryphon's Flight of Fancy)

Mspease5 <mspe...@aol.com> wrote in article
<19980211031...@ladder03.news.aol.com>...

> No, I don't think you a snob. I appreciate your very well written
response.
> You did clear up for me what people here consider a backyard breeder, and
by

> your terms, I agree with you. <snip>

Melinda
>

[Tibbi Scott]

In article <19980211130...@ladder03.news.aol.com>,
mspe...@aol.com (Mspease5) wrote:

> Okay, what prompted the post was something in the GSD thread about returning
> the GSD. I can't quote, but there were numerous references to BYB's that
> seemed so derogatory. And, there have been others that have given the
> impression that if you didn't have an elaborate kennel or if you weren't an
> extensive show participater, then you were no worthy to breed.
>

> As I said, this was impression and all of you have straightened me out on the
> terminology and I'm grateful. I do think that what I have been mixing up is
> backyard breeder and hobby breeder. What I thought everyone labeled a BYB is
> actually a hobby breeder.

A BYB is a "breeder" (and I'm using the word loosely here) who doesn't
care about improving the breed they own, assuming they ever knew what
the breed was.

BYBs either never heard of OFA, SAS, CERF, Thyroid Testing, or any of
the other vital testing needed to be sure that both the dam and sire
(as well as the ancestors) were as healthy, physically and genetically
as possible. If they are informed they think that the testing is not
really needed because their animals "look" ok to them, or the vet, or
their neighbor, etc. Or that the testing is too expensive and just
cuts into any potential profit margin.

They don't have any interest in proving that their dog/bitch has
inherited those traits that it's breed are known for.

For example:
Titling a dashound in Earthdog matchs,
Titling a Vizsla in either Hunting Tests/Field Trials/Tracking
Titling a Border Collie in Herding
Titling any breed in Obedience, Agility, or any of the above
(I've heard of a Pug titled in Hunting, and lots of Papillons
are titled in Tracking)

"Hobby" Breeders, the good and responsible ones, are interested in
retaining good traits and reducing the bad. Good breeders can say,
because of the tests, that a puppy has the best chance at a great life.

BYBs breed because they happen to have a male and female in the house
and neither are fixed. Or because they want to make a bit of money on
the side, or because the BYB couldn't care less about being careful when
their unspayed bitch goes into heat and leave her tie up outside "for
just a moment".

Good breeders study the pedigree of their own dog/bitch, and any
potential mates. There are pedigree line crossing that can enhance,
and ones that can destroy a future litter. BYBs haven't a clue what
any of that mean, and so they post ads on the net for any stud that
would like a shot.

Good breeders have people lined up three litters into the future, and
have educated future owners, and have good return clauses, and are
committed to taking care of any puppy that does need to be returned.

They also usually have plans for further improvements and like working
with the future owners. Helping plan the activities that will indicate
if a puppy is able to live up to it's potential.

Yes, BYB is not a good-term. But it has nothing to do with breeding
in one's backyard. It has to do with the knowledge, care, concern, and
motives one brings to a future breeding. A BYB has none of this.

--
Tibbi Scott

Owned By:
Jaybren's As You Wish aka "Heris", Vizsla
Paksenarrion aka "The Curmudgeon", Part-Siamese Cat

[Andrea Stone]

Tibbi Scott <tibbi...@REMOVETHISFIRSTcmug.com> wrote in article
tibbi_scott-11...@midgard-14.peak.org>...

> Good breeders have people lined up three litters into the future

I would interject, that this is the *ideal*, however beginning, or very
small breeders may not have this luxury. Just because a breeder doesn't
have a waiting list, does not mean they are not "good". It just means that
they do not have people clamoring for puppies. There may be valid,
non-nefarious reasons for this. In these situations, however the breeder
must take that fact into account, and be ready to keep the pups until
suitable homes may be found, and not sell out of desperation.

It takes some time to create a reputation. I'd bet that many of the now
"famous" breeders did not have their first 3 litters sold before they were
born...

Just a thought.

[S. Shrager]

On 11 Feb 1998, Andrea Stone wrote:

> Tibbi Scott <tibbi...@REMOVETHISFIRSTcmug.com> wrote in article
>

> > Good breeders have people lined up three litters into the future
>
> I would interject, that this is the *ideal*, however beginning, or very
> small breeders may not have this luxury. Just because a breeder doesn't

I'd agree. Not only might small/beginning breeders not have this
luxury, many established ones choose NOT to take advantage of it. Many
very reputable breeders I know do not HAVE official waiting lists--they
want to see what is produced before deciding on placement of pups, and
will be somewhere towards that decision before involving potential owners.
Then again, most of these breeders do the breeding in question in order to
produce something for themselves, not for a waiting list, and all
decisions about placement are based upon what they need and is
produced....AND who is out there looking for pups. It is often very nice
to have flexibility in placing a litter based upon what you get and what
you learn about people over time, and not to be bound by a waiting list or
deposits.

n,
Sandi Shrager _/ | _
School of Social Work /' `'/
University of Washington <~ .'
san...@u.washington.edu .' |
_/ |
_/ `.`.
____/ ' \__ | |______
@@@@@@@@@@@@@@a__/___/ /__\ \ \ \___.a@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@
@@@@@@@@@@@@@@/ (___.'\_______)\_|_| \@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@
@@@@@@@@@@@@@|\________ ~~~~~\@@@@@@@@@@@@@
@@@@@@@@@@@@@|| |\___________________________/|@/~~~~~~~~~~
~~~~\@@@@@@@/ | | | | | ||\__________

[we...@zzyx.ucsc.edu]

Andrea Stone wrote:
>
> Tibbi Scott <tibbi...@REMOVETHISFIRSTcmug.com> wrote in article

> tibbi_scott-11...@midgard-14.peak.org>...

>
> > Good breeders have people lined up three litters into the future
>
> I would interject, that this is the *ideal*, however beginning, or very
> small breeders may not have this luxury. Just because a breeder doesn't

> have a waiting list, does not mean they are not "good". It just means that
> they do not have people clamoring for puppies. There may be valid,
> non-nefarious reasons for this. In these situations, however the breeder
> must take that fact into account, and be ready to keep the pups until
> suitable homes may be found, and not sell out of desperation.
>
> It takes some time to create a reputation. I'd bet that many of the now
> "famous" breeders did not have their first 3 litters sold before they were
> born...

Absolutely, Andrea. Plus, if one only breeds about every other year, I
seriously doubt that many, if any, people, are willing to wait 4 YEARS
for that third litter......(ie, one now, a second one in 2 years, the
third in 4 years...) unless they are already active in the breed and
want something from a particular breeding (I did wait three for Miqa
<g>).

The popularity of the breed has a lot to do with it as well. Suitable
Saluki homes, especially pet homes, are not that easy to come by, so
most breeders I know are prepared to keep puppies if necessary. I've
done it, rather than let one go to a marginal home. And never regretted
it, either. I just limit my breeding program so that I have the room,
time, energy and resources to keep whoever I need to keep if suitable
homes fall through.

Wendy
Kyzyl Kum Salukis - Smooth & Feathered
kyzy...@jps.net

[Tibbi Scott]

In article
<Pine.OSF.3.96.980211...@saul6.u.washington.edu>, "S.
Shrager" <san...@u.washington.edu> wrote:

> On 11 Feb 1998, Andrea Stone wrote:
>
> > Tibbi Scott <tibbi...@REMOVETHISFIRSTcmug.com> wrote in article

> > > Good breeders have people lined up three litters into the future
> > I would interject, that this is the *ideal*, however beginning, or very
> > small breeders may not have this luxury. Just because a breeder doesn't
>

> I'd agree. Not only might small/beginning breeders not have this
> luxury, many established ones choose NOT to take advantage of it.

Actually, it is possible to have people lined up for a first breeding.
Especially if the bitch is showing all the great qualities of the breed
and more.

Whether I breed my Vizsla is a question for the future, however I
already have 4 people who'd want a puppy if I do it.

Of course her championship (pending AKC confirmation) before her first
birthday is a first great indicator of the work that went into her
breeding and how she is already living up to that potential.

Her quickness in learning the beginning of Obedience, Agility, Tracking
and Hunting are also an indication of the wonderful work that went into
the breeding and she great potential.

And her first CERF and SAS (baselines done before her first birthday)
were perfect. An indication of her health. The prelim OFA we'll be
doing will be another indication (Of course, the SAS and OFA will be
done again after she's two. The prelim OFA is because I'm overly
careful about her joints).

Now it's up to me to prove out that potential, and then make that
decision about any litter. A decision that will bode a ton of work
for me in order to do it correctly. As much and more than the work
that went into finding her in the first place.

But lining up people is never a problem when you're done the work,
worked hard for those titles, and people can see for themselves that
great quality of dog/bitch that you have.

[we...@zzyx.ucsc.edu]

Maybe lining up people is never a problem in YOUR breed. That's not
necessarily the case in all breeds. And it's amazing how many people say
they want a puppy when it's in some nebulous future but when it comes
down to brass tacks for some reason it doesn't pan out.....been there,
done that. Yes, a responsible breeder should have homes lined up for a
litter--but the critical thing is that they do NOT place puppies in
marginal or subpar homes just to get rid of them! They are prepared to
keep each and every one if every home should fall through - an unlikely
instance, but one should plan as if it is a distinct possibility.

Tibbi, if you breed your girl, it will be your first litter, right? Be
sure and tell us, when they are about four months old, if lining up
homes and placing your pups went as smoothly as you seem to expect it
will. I sincerely hope that it DOES, but reality is often far different
from one's expectations, no matter how much work and research goes into
it.....and, sometimes, no matter how well genotype and phenotype of the
sire and dam "fit", no matter how much research you did, no matter what
excellent advice you get from your mentor, sometimes, sometimes, litters
just don't "work", either. And you have a litterful of pets to place
when you have a list full of homes waiting for show potential
puppies....every breeder has such litters. Been there, done that, too.

A responsible breeder is prepared for ALL these eventualities; a list
full of potential homes isn't the be-all and end-all. It's a good start
and a very important component (assuming of course that it's a list of
well-screened candidates), but there's a lot more to it.

[S. Shrager]

On Wed, 11 Feb 1998, Tibbi Scott wrote:

> Actually, it is possible to have people lined up for a first breeding.
> Especially if the bitch is showing all the great qualities of the breed
> and more.

Not debating the possibility of that...though I was concurring with Andrea
that one starting out shouldn't necessarily have to have a three-year
waiting list.

My point had been that a waiting list is not some breeders priority, as
they prefer to have the flexibility to place pups without one. At the
same time....they don't need waiting lists, as based upon their
reputations they don't have problems placing their pups in the best homes
possible.

[James D. Tegeder Jr.]

Meinheld wrote:

> >"James D. Tegeder Jr." <jd...@ix.netcom.com>
>
> > I heartily disagree with you
> >that these people are not bad breeders.
>
> in answer to a posting by > mpease5< :

> > > I am so tired of hearing a

> >> stereotypical assumption of a so called backyard breeder
>
> JDTJR: the posting from from mpease5 was about the backyard breeder and I
> think mpease5 was confused about the term. Backyard breeder is the person who
> has a dog tied up in the backyard and is available to any and all dogs that
> happen by., or for puppy mills. It is the term for the worst kind of breeder.
> It is the breeder you, yourself describe.
>

Yes, I'm aware of this. Which is why I described it as such in my post.

> The "hobby breeder" is the consciencious breeder, who breeds with
> discrimination and care. The "hobby breeder" has saved some breeds from
> oblivion. Being a "hobby breeder" myself, I can attest to the fact that there
> is no money in it, so you have to love the breed and care about it and care
> about where the puppies go, keeping in touch with owners, and all the other
> worries that come with careful breeding. Many "hobby breeders" have homes for
> potential pups before the breeding occurs.

I know this as well. This "hobby breeder" is what I labeled a reputable,
responsible breeder in my post.

>
>
> I think it important that we have a good idea of the definitions before
> blasting away at mpease5, who obviously was of the same mindset as you about
> good and bad breeders but was unsure of the terms in use currently. And btw,
> "show" breeders are not all saints, either.

Again, I know this -- and stated as much (where I specifically wrote about
responsible breeders: "not to be read show breeder"). And as for "blasting"
mpease5, I did nothing of the sort. I responded to the post as I understood it.
I said nothing personally insulting toward the poster. I was being nice and
sharing information. It seems that you are saying in your post exactly what I
stated in mine...

Amber

[C.R. E.]

Do not know if you can be believed or not. Everybody knows Basenjis are
lunatic dogs. That must mean the owners and breeders are even crazier!!
If Bassenji people had any smarts, they would have TOY MANCHESTER
TERRIER!!! Heh, heh. At least Manchesters only eat the furniture one
leg at a time!!

Glad to see you hear--I have seen your name on one of the lists I lurk
upon.
Cannot remeber which--Sighthound-L maybe?? Glad to see you telling
these neophytes like it is!!!

Carole Ernst

[C.R. E.]

I personally prefer the term "puppy producers" to any term using the
word breeder. The average puppy producer is not qualified to be called
any type of breeder!!

Carole Ernst

PS-Hello to fellow WebTVers!!

[Lisa Baird]

Tibbi Scott wrote:

> Actually, it is possible to have people lined up for a first breeding.
> Especially if the bitch is showing all the great qualities of the breed
> and more.
>

> Whether I breed my Vizsla is a question for the future, however I
> already have 4 people who'd want a puppy if I do it.
>

Tibbi, I am glad your girl is doing so well, and I am sure you'll make a
wonderful breeder with great puppies! However, let me warn you now. Amazing
things happen to people who are absolutely 110% certain they want one of YOUR
puppies, and nothing else, and will wait till the end of their days if need be
for one. <g>

How do I know? I was I your shoes as an about to be first time breeder less
than 5 years ago. My bitch finished her championship rather easily, got her
first AD leg the same day as her ch. and followed the next weekend with her CD.
Comes from great lines, all health tests were then passed with flying colors
etc. Wow! I was ready! People were calling wanting MY puppies! How cool. <g> I
had a wonderful line breeding, to her grandfather (won breed at Westminster,
top producer and breed dog, etc.) Some people wanted to send deposits before
she was even in season. (I don't take deposits till my pup sare on the ground
though.) Where were they when pups arrived? "got a cat", "got a Shih Tzu", "got
a divorce", "got tired of waiting", "husband died" (I kid you not!), "Had a
baby", etc. Now, everyone is a POTENTIAL buyer, until they walk out the door
with a puppy! <VBG>

And quite honestly, I encourage people who are interested to look elsewhere, if
I'm not breeding fairly soon. I can never be sure my breeding will take, I'll
have what they are looking for, etc. Too many breeders I know take deposits and
start lists waaaay ahead! I see no reason for someone to be on a waiting list
for years. What I DO get comfortable with though, is that if I have many calls
a year ahead, and months leading up to an expected breeding, I feel pretty
certain that I will have more people calling when it actually IS time, and have
no problem finding quality homes for my pups. I am currently awaiting my 3rd
PWD litter (out of a daughter of my original bitch). My foundation bitch now
has her AX, AAD and is working well in Masters, her daughter, Dreamer, (the
pregnant one) has an NA and an AD. SHe is OFA excellent, and most of her litter
has already been OFA'd, all with Good and Excellent. She and her brother one
the BBE class at the 1996 National Specialty. Yes, I've had a lot of calls, for
over a year. Now that the litter is nearly here, I have a wide variety of
quality pet, working and conformation homes for them. None of them have been
waiting for THIS litter a year though.

[Opaynter]

>madamma...@webtv.net (C.R. E.)

> The average puppy producer is not qualified to be called
>any type of breeder!! <

Are you qualified??

[Opaynter]

>madamma...@webtv.net (C.R. E.) wrote

>Do not know if you can be believed or not. Everybody knows Basenjis are
>lunatic dogs. That must mean the owners and breeders are even crazier!!

So someone who makes statements like these is to be believed?
And on another post you say that the average breeder is not qualified to be
called a breeder?? Who is to believe you??

[Tibbi Scott]

According to Lisa Baird <lba...@infinet.com>:

>Tibbi, I am glad your girl is doing so well, and I am sure you'll make a
>wonderful breeder with great puppies! However, let me warn you now. Amazing
>things happen to people who are absolutely 110% certain they want one of YOUR
>puppies, and nothing else, and will wait till the end of their days if need be
>for one. <g>

Oh, I figured that a possibily. Of course, none of that matters if I decide
never to breed her. Just came away from watching a "humman interest" story
on the Portland news about a woman whose Saint Bernard die after giving birth
to a huge litter. The "human interest" part came from the fact that a number
people are helping her hand-rear the puppies.

The whole idea of losing Heris because I decided I had to have a litter just
gives me shivers.

Ah well. The decision is still years off.

--
Tibbi Scott (Standard Disclaimer: my views are my own.)

[Saxon Brown]

Tibbi Scott wrote:
Just came away from watching a "humman interest" story
> on the Portland news about a woman whose Saint Bernard die after giving birth
> to a huge litter. The "human interest" part came from the fact that a number
> people are helping her hand-rear the puppies.

I saw that on the colorado news- it made raising a litter of pups after
the dam dies during the cesearian so cute and lovely- almost NO mention
of the poor dam that dies, it was all about how the neighborhood kiddies
were helping to feed the pups. Sorry to be bitter, but it seemed like
the death of the mother of these pups was just wonderful for these
folks. Arg. Where's the compassion, the mourning for the dead pet?

Saxon

[C.R. E.]

Opaynter lighten up---it is a joke among sighthound people that Basenjis
are looney, Afghans are peanut brains, and Whippets are wonderful!!!

I just happen to have a few Manchester Chamopions too!! Can't you
recognise a joke??!!

Carole Ernst

[freckles]

And don't forget, where did YOU the BREEDER start out, I'm sure you didn't
just buy a ready made kennel property.

Remember where you once started off too.

Mspease5 <mspe...@aol.com> wrote in article

<19980211005...@ladder02.news.aol.com>...
> At a major risk of being attacked I have to vent. I am so tired of
hearing a

[Tibbi Scott]

Just what I was thinking while watching the tv new report. All those
pictures of squirming little puppies and everyone just so happy.

The owner going on about how the mother was looking down from heaven
and so happy about it all.

It was sickening, and guarenteed to encourage all sorts of uneducated
people to just go out and breed, seeing how if all +those+ people were
making it look so-o-o easy and fun, how hard could it be. Yuck!

Breeding puppies, having the dam die, hand-rearing (what... 14 puppies),
it's a social bee kind of thing.

tibbi

[Andrea Stone]

C.R. E. <madamma...@webtv.net> wrote in article
<6c10uu$gph$1...@newsd-153.iap.bryant.webtv.net>...

> Opaynter lighten up---it is a joke among sighthound people that Basenjis
> are looney,

Yes it's true, I took this as a joke too.
All us Basenji people MUST be crazy, after all those Basenjis are such
NASTY little dogs!

This reputation Basenjis have goes back to when they first came to this
country and started showing. From what I understand, they really were NOT
very nice. They were, after all basically feral dogs until around the 40's
or so, and still are in parts of Africa. And even the ones we have now
retain a vast amount of their "wild" traits.

Once, while waiting for the Group, an older woman, who was presumably
apprenticing as a Hound Group judge asked me, "Is that a nice Basenji, or
an iffy one?" Well, I looked at her (horrified that this "unbiased" person
will judge my Group in the future) and said "They're all nice."

I wish I'd added, that it's the people who are "iffy". Oh well. I figured
she just can't handle a dog with spirit.

[mark]

Andrea Stone wrote:
>
> C.R. E. <madamma...@webtv.net> wrote in article
> <6c10uu$gph$1...@newsd-153.iap.bryant.webtv.net>...
> > Opaynter lighten up---it is a joke among sighthound people that Basenjis
> > are looney,
>
> Yes it's true, I took this as a joke too.
> All us Basenji people MUST be crazy, after all those Basenjis are such
> NASTY little dogs!
>
> This reputation Basenjis have goes back to when they first came to this
> country and started showing. From what I understand, they really were NOT
> very nice. They were, after all basically feral dogs until around the 40's
> or so, and still are in parts of Africa. And even the ones we have now
> retain a vast amount of their "wild" traits.

HUH? What are the "wild"
traits that these dogs kept.

[Andrea Stone]

mark <mark....@mail.tju.edu> wrote in article
<34E4E3...@mail.tju.edu>...

> HUH? What are the "wild"
> traits that these dogs kept.

Cycle once a year, barkless (foxes, wolves, etc don't bark. Not sure on
Dingo. Humans bred in the bark), very pack oriented behavior (more so than
any other breed I have worked with) , many esp males, and females with pups
will not eliminate in the yard - feces in home area may alert predators of
their presence, afraid of dark (leopards hunt at night, the B's biggest
predator)...

Do you own a Basenji? If so, you *must* know what I mean...

[AVRAMA GINGOLD]

CE> I personally prefer the term "puppy producers" to any term using the
CE> word breeder. The average puppy producer is not qualified to be called
CE> any type of breeder!!
CE>
CE> Carole Ernst
CE>
CE> PS-Hello to fellow WebTVers!!
CE>
My preference is for MISbreeder (with caps as shown).
avrama

.. nfx v2.7 [C0000] "What is man without the beasts?"