Standard Poodle Puppies
JHollis941
We have a litter of beautiful Standard Poodle Puppies. Male and female, cream,
white and black. Excellent blood lines, genetic testing, health guaranteed,
modest prices, and they
are really very cute.
Check out our website at http://www.mindspring.com/~alora
if you like standard poodles, you'll like the site.
thanks
alt:sex.stories.bondage
alt:binaries.pictures.erotica.cartoons
alt:binaries.pictures.erotica.torture
alt:binaries.pictures.bigbuts
alt:binaries.pictures.erotica.animals
cyberwolf
(http://www.mindspring.com/~alora)
and tell me what you think. Thankyou.
JHollis941 wrote in message
<199808271929...@ladder01.news.aol.com>...
blac...@dog-play.com
good breeder with poor advertising skills, the well meaning but
unknowledgable breeder, or the puppy mill breeder. I did go visit the web
site. Unfortunately it appears to not yet be completed because it, too,
does not provide enough information to evaluate the knowledge and skills
of the breeder. The web site does show the typical enthusiasim of a dog
lover.
Hopefully the breeder will soon take fullest advantage of the
website to show how truly special and well bred her dogs are. In the
meanwhile, if you are new to poodles you'll want to be sure to visit the
Versatility In Poodles site http://www.pageweb.com/vipoodle/ to get some
ideas about what to look for in a breeder. Before responding to
advertisements it is useful to learn more about what to expect from a
responsible breeder, and how to best get a puppy with a reduced chance of
genetic disease, and one that has been well socialised, and what questions
to ask. See: http://www.dog-play.com/ethics.html
Diane Blackman
di...@dog-play.com http://www.dog-play.com
- - - - - - - - -
"[The] ideal owner/dog propblem-solving orientation, . . . takes into
account the fact that dogs and people have their own special needs and
body langauge. "The Body Language and Emotion of Dogs" by Myrna M.
Milani, DVM.
JHollis941 <jholl...@aol.com> wrote:
: Hi:
Cris Waller
<cyber...@adelphia.net> wrote:
>Would these people be okay to buy from? Please look at their web site
>(http://www.mindspring.com/~alora)
> and tell me what you think. Thankyou.
The list of newsgroups at the bottom of their post rattled me a bit...
At any rate, I have seen worse websites that theirs, but many better.
Here's what bothered me:
-Only a 2-year genetic guarantee. Lots of problems take longer than
that to show up.
-Absolutely no info on the pedigrees of their dogs.
-No indication that they show or work their dogs in any way.
Cris Waller
Cr...@ix.netcom.com
Visit the Predator Defense Institute website!
http://www.envirolink.org/orgs/pdi/index.htm
Cris Waller
>Check out our website at http://www.mindspring.com/~alora
>if you like standard poodles, you'll like the site.
I checked. Why only a 2-year health guarantee? And why no information
whatsoever on the parents at your website? I also assume from that
site that you do not show or work your dogs in any way?
>alt:sex.stories.bondage
>alt:binaries.pictures.erotica.cartoons
>alt:binaries.pictures.erotica.torture
>alt:binaries.pictures.bigbuts
>alt:binaries.pictures.erotica.animals
Ummm...care to explain exactly why you had *this* list in your post?
Andrea Stone
>Would these people be okay to buy from? Please look at their web site
>(http://www.mindspring.com/~alora)
> and tell me what you think. Thankyou.
They seem like nice dogs, and nice people but a 2 year health guarantee is
not enough IMO. It should be lifetime. PRA is a late onset problem, and HD
often will hit later in life. I would likely keep looking based solely on
that. I'm not too familiar with Poodle health issues, so someone else can
comment if PRA, SA & HD are all for which standards should be tested.
I also wonder how much the breeders know about conformation, because in the
website, they call it "configuration", which seems odd. [Quote "We breed to
achieve size, configuration and health and temperament"] If they don't know
the right term, it makes me wonder how well they know Poodle conformation &
the standard. In addition, I wonder why they breed for "size". The breed
standard calls for a Standard Poodle to be over 15", but seems odd to make
it a goal to have extraordinarily large dogs.
I would **ask the breeders** about this, if I were considering a dog of
theirs.
Also, I'd like to see more information on their dogs. Many breeders show
case each of their dogs. I'd like to know about each dog, see its pedigree
and hear about their accomplishments in obedience, fly ball, conformation,
S&R, therapy or other activities the dogs are in.
$500-$800 seems like a lot to me for pups from non-titled parents (assuming
that they are not, since no mention is made). Again, maybe this is not the
case in Poodles, being that I am not an expert on the breed. I would talk to
other breeders (specifically those involved in conformation showing and
obedience) to get a feel for what you should expect for that price.
I would also want to know that the grandparents, great grand parents, etc.,
had been tested for genetic disorders. I would want to know the ages of the
dogs behind the pup, and it would raise some red flags if there were not at
least a few titled dogs in a 3 generation pedigree.
I hope that the original poster realizes that my critique is not meant to
be mean spirited, but this is a discussion group, a question was asked, and
so I'm discussing the site, and the infomation supplied. This is not meant
as a slam on their dogs. I want to stress that I would do more research on
the breed, and ask the breeder many questions before making a decision.
--
Andrea Stone
Saorsa Basenjis + one Ibizan Hound
http://www.premier1.net/~saorsa
Tanzendog
>
>Would these people be okay to buy from? Please look at their web site
>(http://www.mindspring.com/~alora)
> and tell me what you think. Thankyou.
>
>
For more information go to the sites below.
Candace A. Hume
Tanzen Poodles
For poodle information:
Poodle Club of America www.swdg.com/pca
Versitility in Poodles www.pageweb.com/vipoodle
"When your opinion is worth two cents, I will let you know." Scritto
riple...@yahoo.com
here. They have the dogs in the home, which is good, and they socialize the
puppies and maintain good shot records. It says they test for HD, PRA and
SA. For the hip certification, what does that mean? Do they just x-ray, or
do they submit them to OFA and get actual hip clearance ratings? How old are
their bitches before they're bred the first time, and how often/how many
times are they bred? Where do they get the studs? Ideally, they should be
looking outside their own kennel to throughout the region or the country to
find the ones that best compliment their bitches' qualities. Do they show
these poodles or compete in obedience or anything else? I have MUCH more
confidence in a breeder who competes in some area of the dog fancy. Are
there any titles at all in the last two generations??? Shows their
commitment and also offers objective, independent evaluations as to the
quality of their dogs. Do these breeders belong to their local or national
breed club? Again, a good sign if they do. Why is their health guarantee
only two years? HD is often not diagnosed till after that, and what are they
going to do if you call them when the dog is three and is crippling up fast?
Will they take the dog back, even if they don't refund your money? Will they
help you finance surgery? If they take the dog back will they keep it or
euthanize it? How do they go about screening homes for these dogs? If
they're shipping them, how can the check out these homes?
So, while it appears they might be on the right track, I'd ask a lot of
questions before getting a dog from them. Have you checked the Poodle Club of
America's breeder referral contact? Check out http://www.dog-
play.com/ethics.html for some great guidelines for checking for a responsible
breeder.
Lori
In article <hmjF1.365$Ua4.9...@news.axxsys.net>,
"cyberwolf" <cyber...@adelphia.net> wrote:
> Would these people be okay to buy from? Please look at their web site
> (http://www.mindspring.com/~alora)
> and tell me what you think. Thankyou.
>
> JHollis941 wrote in message
> <199808271929...@ladder01.news.aol.com>...
> >Hi:
> >
> >We have a litter of beautiful Standard Poodle Puppies. Male and female,
> cream,
> >white and black. Excellent blood lines, genetic testing, health
> guaranteed,
> >modest prices, and they
> >are really very cute.
> >
> >Check out our website at http://www.mindspring.com/~alora
> >if you like standard poodles, you'll like the site.
> >
> >thanks
> >
> >
> >alt:sex.stories.bondage
> >alt:binaries.pictures.erotica.cartoons
> >alt:binaries.pictures.erotica.torture
> >alt:binaries.pictures.bigbuts
> >alt:binaries.pictures.erotica.animals
>
>
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/rg_mkgrp.xp Create Your Own Free Member Forum
Nancy E.Holmes or R. Nelson Ruffin
<6s51ld$r63$1...@plo.sierra.com>...
> cyberwolf wrote in message ...
> >Would these people be okay to buy from? Please look at their web site
> >(http://www.mindspring.com/~alora)
> > and tell me what you think. Thankyou.
the entire site strikes me as an advertising ploy by a small time
commercial breeder
Breeding for size is one dead giveaway as is the lack of understanding of
the word conformation - if they don't understand it they certainly are not
breeding for it.
I have seen many a charming puppy picture placed as an ad from a puppy mill
- indeed I choked upon one add made in DOGS magazine by a known miller -
good photo cute looking pup and kid but those two never saw each other
before the shot I am sure. I 've seen real photos of the place the pup came
from!
I would want a lot more from these folks than what is on the web site
As an example - I never knew a nursing degree made a lick of difference in
the breeding of dogs nor a exactly kept shots schedule.
A nurse near me produces standard poodles - all the ones I have met are
way oversize, bunny hop, have tails a docked to a mere 3 inch long, have
very strange looking heads for poodles and sell for about the price listed
on the web page which IMO is about $700 too much. She has pups available
pretty frequently all 'raised by a nurse' in the ads.
Nancy
Bob & Trish Yana
in medicine makes any difference at all in the breeding of dogs, or any
other animal for that matter? I highly disagree with you. True, it does not
necessarily mean that the breeder is reputable just because they are a
nurse, but it certainly does help with the concept of whelping , nurturing
sick pups, and gives great insight into the medical regimen.
Trish
Nancy, Why the put down towards nurses? Or do you just enjoy mauling
people.........all people?
Nancy E.Holmes or R. Nelson Ruffin wrote in message
<01bdd2f4$f9e612e0$38d8...@fmkaffen.ix.netcom.com>...
Dogman
29 Aug 1998 17:49:13 -0500, "Bob & Trish Yana" <gr8d...@midwest.net>
says:
[...]
>Nancy, Why the put down towards nurses? Or do you just enjoy mauling
>people.........all people?
Don't take it personally, Trish, Dominatrix Holmes puts down, or
mauls, virtually *everything* she doesn't understand, and, trust me,
that covers A LOT OF GROUND.
It wouldn't be so tragic if she at least had a couple clues, but she
is also virtually CLUELESS.
Holmes is to clue what Tupac Shakur was to C & W music.
:>)
--
Dogman
dog...@i1.net
New! Dogman's Book Recommendations
http://www.i1.net/~dogman/books.htm
About Hunting Retrievers
http://www.i1.net/~dogman/fieldtrl.htm
About The Finest Sour Mash Whisky Under The Sun
http://www.georgedickel.com
"Violence, when there are alternatives, is immoral.
Violence, when there are no alternatives, is survival."
Dogman
"Do unto others as they do unto you."
Dogman
Nancy E.Holmes or R. Nelson Ruffin
you might have to cover for all that you do not but being a nurse does not
ipso facto make you or anyone else a good and responsible dog breeder. If
knowledge of human medicine was so valuable in non human medical needs we
would not have veterinarians only MD's. Certainly some nurses know about
cleanliness and insertion of IV's and the use of a needle for injections
and some know a bit about the needs of a human female during gestation and
delivery but lots more don't even manage to know (or remember) that much.
When it comes to understanding dogs it helps to have studied them not
humans when it comes down to things you don't believe in such as genetics,
responsible breeding, elimination of hereditary defects through breeding
choices and the responsible placement of puppies.
Stating that one is a nurse and relating it to quality in dog breeding is
rather like stating one is a dog breeder and offering medical assistance to
humans in lieu of a visit to a physician.
I hear your pups from your baby danes are due in October - no health
testing and no hope the poor dams will have a decent life. Don't try to
justify being a BYB by claiming nurses are better at it!
Nancy
Bob & Trish Yana <gr8d...@midwest.net> wrote in article
<6sa0s2$m3m$1...@supernews.com>...
> Sorry Nancy, I have to call you on this one. You don't believe that a
degree
> in medicine makes any difference at all in the breeding of dogs, or any
> other animal for that matter? I highly disagree with you. True, it does
not
> necessarily mean that the breeder is reputable just because they are a
> nurse, but it certainly does help with the concept of whelping ,
nurturing
> sick pups, and gives great insight into the medical regimen.
> Trish
>
> Nancy, Why the put down towards nurses? Or do you just enjoy mauling
> people.........all people?
>
>
>
Nancy E.Holmes or R. Nelson Ruffin
wannabes?
How low you fall when you consume such quantities of alcohol.
Nancy
Dogman <dog...@i1.net> wrote in article <360b94a1...@news.i1.net>...
>clueless vituperation snipped
Poodle111
We have a beautiful litter of standard poodle pups. Boys and girls,
black, white and cream. Genetic testing, health guaranteed, excellent blood
lines, and very cute.
$600 to 800, limited breeding, includes air freight and health certificate.
Payment plan available.
Check these out at http://www.mindspring.com/~alora
Bonnie
Dogman
1998 13:00:44 GMT, "Nancy E.Holmes or R. Nelson Ruffin"
<fmka...@ix.netcom.com> says:
>Drinking again Dogman are you?
Is it raining in Florida?
> - and aligning yourself with BYB puppy mill wannabes?
I would *never& do that, Madam Nancy.
I'm only "aligning" myself OPPOSITE OF YOU, which is *always* the
smart place to be.
>How low you fall when you consume such quantities of alcohol.
Even on my lowest days, I'm absolutely stratospheric compared to
*you.*
Compared to you, Holmes, Leona Helmsley is almost, well...nice.
cdwe...@mindspring.com
comes
to breeding dogs I say it makes NO difference. For one thing, most nursing
courses do not require any courses in genetics or heredity at all. And as
for
having insight into a medical regimen, everyone can read a calender, tell
time,
and call a veterinarian. And if they aren't a veterinarian themselves they
had
better not be prescribing their own doses of antibiotics, narcotics, or
certain
vaccines because that would be practicing medicine without a license.
Besides, I've worked with many nurses over the years and not all of them
are
that bright. In fact, it amazes me sometimes the people that are able to
become
nurses, let alone get into the schools. There are many that are just as
intelligent,
if not more so, than the doctors they work for. But, I wouldn't buy a dog
from
someone just because they were a nurse and the other breeder was not.
Bob & Trish Yana wrote in message <6sa0s2$m3m$1...@supernews.com>...
DobeFan
>lines,
Aw, they don't charge by the word here! Go ahead and brag!!!! List the genetic
tests, exactly what the guarantee covers, and what titles attest to the
excellence. Set an example for other breeders. Brag!
Bob & Trish Yana
SIGH
cdwe...@mindspring.com wrote in message
<6scdit$e24$1...@camel21.mindspring.com>...
Bob & Trish Yana
the whole world were allowed to breed any dogs at all, with the exception of
yourself. But you see, the logic behind that is that you are not a reputable
breeder yourself. Not to mention the fact that people have different tastes
in dogs than those "Awful pinchers" that you drag into this world
unwillingly.
SIGH
She just never learns.
Nancy E.Holmes or R. Nelson Ruffin wrote in message
>I know Trish that you would like desperately to trade upon some knowledge
>you might have to cover for all that you do not but being a nurse does not
>ipso facto make you or anyone else a good and responsible dog breeder. If
>knowledge of human medicine was so valuable in non human medical needs we
>would not have veterinarians only MD's. Certainly some nurses know about
>cleanliness and insertion of IV's and the use of a needle for injections
>and some know a bit about the needs of a human female during gestation and
>delivery but lots more don't even manage to know (or remember) that much.
>When it comes to understanding dogs it helps to have studied them not
>humans when it comes down to things you don't believe in such as genetics,
>responsible breeding, elimination of hereditary defects through breeding
>choices and the responsible placement of puppies.
>Stating that one is a nurse and relating it to quality in dog breeding is
>rather like stating one is a dog breeder and offering medical assistance to
>humans in lieu of a visit to a physician.
>I hear your pups from your baby danes are due in October - no health
>testing and no hope the poor dams will have a decent life. Don't try to
>justify being a BYB by claiming nurses are better at it!
>Nancy
>
>Bob & Trish Yana <gr8d...@midwest.net> wrote in article
Bob & Trish Yana
a private email without going into a tirade, and you have to post everything
here so your wannabe's can back you up.
Our upcoming litter in October is no secret. So whomever told you that, I
really don't care, but the fact is that the dam is not a "baby" as you call
her, and my waiting list is actually quite long. Many more people waiting
that she will produce puppies, I am certain.
I simply did not choose to announce it here, because YOU and your cronies,
with your pack mentality of hyenas over a dying wildebeest, have so much fun
haranguing those who post about upcoming litters, that I just did not feel
like giving you the satisfaction of one more mauling.
(She has so much time on her hands, and nothing to do but harass breeders.
SIGH what a life.)
tibbi
<gr8d...@midwest.net> wrote:
> BTW, Nancy, it is SO painfully obvious since you can't intelligently answer
> a private email without going into a tirade, and you have to post everything
> here so your wannabe's can back you up.
kill any more bitches with back-to-back breedings?
oh, wait.... that's right... that was all a lie, and the bitch is
still alive? and still breedable.
so BobbyTrish, you planning to 'announce' that new BYB litter and are
trying to shut up people in advance.
Dogman
31 Aug 1998 08:45:21 -0500, "Bob & Trish Yana" <gr8d...@midwest.net>
says:
>Here we go folks, as once again, Nancy's troops fall in behind her.
>SIGH
Trish, I wouldn't worry too much about Mistress Nancy's "troops."
Number one, there aren't but a few of them.
Number two, they're about as competent as Saddam Hussein's troops.
Dogman
says:
[...]
>She just never learns.
You got that right.
Mistress Holmes is to learning what Osama bin Laden is to the U.S.
Bob & Trish Yana
So I see your "BobbyTrish" kindergarten mentality is still intact, how
lovely.
Simple answers for a simple mind. No, no bitches have died since Belle, in
what was a tragic loss for our whole family. And to keep bringing it up only
serves to show what a heartless and cruel person you really are.
My upcoming litter is from a harle female that I bought who is 3 and 1/2
years old. I have announced it where it is appreciated, and no one like you
or Nancy are there to maul our kennel's happy news.
Tibbi, grow up, you are forever a Nancy wannabe. You have neither the wit or
intelligence to come anywhere near being Nancy.
Trish
tibbi wrote in message ...
tibbi
<gr8d...@midwest.net> wrote:
> [more nonsense deleted]
poor bobbytrish... i bet you were hoping that no one was going
to remember your idiocy the last time you were on the group.
but no luck... you're remembered, and jumping in and attacking
nancy isn't going to do you any good.
Bob & Trish Yana
Especially one who is still stuck in the kindergarten teasing rut.
Poor Tibbi, she even has the name of a toddler.
tibbi wrote in message ..
Nancy E.Holmes or R. Nelson Ruffin
beyond your comprehension. I see no reason to converse with a BYB who has
no intention of becoming anything other than a mill via email. I reserve
that privilege for decent humans at any possible opportunity.
Nancy
Bob & Trish Yana <gr8d...@midwest.net> wrote in article
<6se9vq$127$1...@supernews.com>...
> snip nonsense
Nancy E.Holmes or R. Nelson Ruffin
Nancy
Dogman <dog...@i1.net> wrote in article <35f28f1b...@news.i1.net>...
> snip dogman ranting
Nancy E.Holmes or R. Nelson Ruffin
recent nonsense you posted - how is that poor dead yet miraculously
resurrected bitch anyhow? pregnant again? I see you have no response to any
questions on the health testing you are doing at your mill. Could that be
because all the dogs including the 'rescues' you are breeding are still too
young?
I know lots of top notch responsible breeders in your breed alone - you
just aren't one of them and no nursing degree true or fictitious will
change that unless you change your breeding practices in favor of
responsibility as opposed to BYB on their way to being a real mill.
Nancy
Bob & Trish Yana <gr8d...@midwest.net> wrote in article
<6se9il$1vg$1...@supernews.com>...
>snip
Nancy E.Holmes or R. Nelson Ruffin
*my* friend or troop or whatever. Your praise is overwhelming and totally
unneeded not to mention slightly off kilter.
At least you are good for a snicker if not a laugh.
Nancy
Bob & Trish Yana <gr8d...@midwest.net> wrote in article
<6se9bu$14a$1...@supernews.com>...
> Here we go folks, as once again, Nancy's troops fall in behind her.
> SIGH
> snip a reasonable answer to Yananabanana baby talk
Bob & Trish Yana
wouldn't have your cronies and hyenas there to say "Yeah, whatever she
said!"
Whatever.
Nancy E.Holmes or R. Nelson Ruffin wrote in message
<01bdd54b$86456440$26d8...@fmkaffen.ix.netcom.com>...
> snip cowardice<
Bob & Trish Yana
have quite an inflated ego there Nancy.
Based upon the numerous private responses I have gotten in the last 2 days,
I would say that you and your entourage are definitely in the minority. But,
hey, thats just the people who have contacted me.
BTW, are you, or whoever you have lurking on the Puppies list enjoying
yourselves?
You won't find anything there, but people who are sick of being crapped on
here......by you and your pack.
Trish
Nancy E.Holmes or R. Nelson Ruffin wrote in message
<01bdd54c$24085ac0$26d8...@fmkaffen.ix.netcom.com>...
>SNIP> more of Nancy's delusions of grandeur
Bob & Trish Yana
your high and mighty "I am the only one who should breed dogs" hornblowing.
Again, I will reiterate for those reading impaired. We suffered a great loss
when Belle was lost during her whelp. You, like Tibbi, cannot seem to do
anymore than try to pour salt in open wounds. There again, it shows just
what a "compassionate" human being you are.
Trish
Nancy E.Holmes or R. Nelson Ruffin wrote in message
<01bdd54b$2fad6c40$26d8...@fmkaffen.ix.netcom.com>...
yada yada yada, more of the same old same old.
tibbi
<gr8d...@midwest.net> wrote:
> You are quite right Nancy, not everyone is so foolish as to believe all of
> your high and mighty "I am the only one who should breed dogs" hornblowing.
she's never said that. what's she indicated (in my own words) that you
shouldn't breed dogs until you're willing to go it right. With health
testing, carefully spaced breedings, and to improve the breed.
Not back-to-back breeding of untested too-young bitches.
But when did FACTS ever stand in your way BobbyTrish.
> Again, I will reiterate for those reading impaired. We suffered a great loss
> when Belle was lost during her whelp. You, like Tibbi, cannot seem to do
> anymore than try to pour salt in open wounds. There again, it shows just
> what a "compassionate" human being you are.
you don't need "compassion". you need the akc rep to do a surprise
inspection of your "mill".
tibbi
> Hmm - lets see everyone more intelligent and responsible than you are is
> *my* friend or troop or whatever.
> Bob & Trish Yana <gr8d...@midwest.net> wrote in article
> <6se9bu$14a$1...@supernews.com>...
> > Here we go folks, as once again, Nancy's troops fall in behind her.
hut 2, 3, 4
atten-n-n-n-n-n-tion!
<giggle>
Bob & Trish Yana
very slowly for
you..........the........dog.........who..........is.........bred..........
is........not.........a............back...........to.............back...
breeding.............she............is...............also.......three....
and......one..........half..........years.........old.............
Or let me put it this way, for your kindergarten mind, hon. Dick and Jane
had a doggie named Spot. Spot will be 4 years old in October when her
puppies are due. Spot has been bred one time by her previous owner, when she
was 2 and one half years old.
See Spot run. Run Spot Run.
All of our dogs are housedogs, so the AKC can come at any time they wish,
they will see nothing more than lazy danes lying around on their doggy beds
in the family room. And if you would like to check with them also on our
puppy count, please do. You will find ONE litter registration, that has
FOUR pups on it. One of which is registered to us.
WHOA.........What a mill.
You know, Tibbi, I work with developmentally disabled people who are far
quicker than you are.
Always so busy taking up for Nancy, gee, is she your surrogate mother or
what?
BTW, how is Herriss the Great Viszla? OFA'd yet?
tibbi wrote in message ...
>SNIP< more kindergarten nyah nyah nyah nyah nyah nyah DRIVEL
Bob & Trish Yana
Look at the order of the posts, Tibbi. They come like this......Nancy
Holmes, Bob & Trish Yana, Tibbi
Am I wrong? OK, for your childish mind, click the sent button above the
dates on the posts and you can tell what order they came in, sweetie.
Have a Great Day!
tibbi wrote in message ...
Chris Kosmakos
: Oh, for doG's sake -- Trish, Nancy, Tibbi -- would you mind taking this
: to email?
I 2nd Melanie's reasonable request. If not to email, please take it to
the new forum the Yanas have set up for breeders, PuppiesGalore. This
thread started out with a query from a consumer appropriate to this
newgroup, but has degenerated in to personal attacks of the same type that
we've seen before.
Lynn K.
--
chri...@netcom.com
cyberwolf
poodles") people seemed like resposible breeders. They had a site so I asked
people to take a look at it and tell me what they think. As you can see the
topic changed a lot.
Cyberwolf
Cris Waller wrote in message <35edb3c3...@nntp.ix.netcom.com>...
>On 2 Sep 1998 01:21:05 GMT, "Nancy E.Holmes or R. Nelson Ruffin"
><fmka...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
>
>>>The problem here is that, once the conversation becomes a personal
>argument (as in this thread between you and Joe or between you, Trish
>and Terri) , it no longer bears *any* resemblance to the original
>topic thread or the header. I, for one, *am* interested in the
>original topic of this thread. I don't want to stifle your argument,
>but I do think that changing the topic header is appropriate. That
>way, if you want to argue, you can, and if you argue under an
>appropriate header, anyone who wants to argue with you can find it and
>jump in.
>
>
>Cris Waller
>Cr...@ix.netcom.com
>
>Visit the Predator Defense Institute website!
>http://www.envirolink.org/orgs/pdi/index.htm
Bob & Trish Yana
You just live for a good argument, don't you Nancy? :)
I have no dogs chained outside, intact or neutered. I do have my one and
only male, a solid black, in a kennel run outside for the time being,
because I have 4 females in heat. Now, we wouldn't want all four of them to
be bred, now would we Nancy?
Nancy E.Holmes or R. Nelson Ruffin wrote in message
<01bdd60c$cb09a340$43d8...@fmkaffen.ix.netcom.com>...
Bob & Trish Yana
quite well in the 6-9 I might add.
And FYI, I do have another Belle, but she is a Mantle, her full name is
Camelot's Boston Belle. My daughter's dog who died in whelp was Callie's
Memphis Belle. Be more than glad to show you registration papers if you
would like. Camelot's Boston Belle was sired by BISS CH. The Dutchman Von
Meistersinger. Gee, what nastiness do you have to spread about him? I would
love to let Mrs. Pratt know what slanderous things you have to say about
Dutchy.
You really should get your facts straight, Nancy, before you go shooting off
your mouth. But then that never has been a strong suit for you, has it?
>VBG<
Nancy E.Holmes or R. Nelson Ruffin wrote in message
<01bdd60d$23b18f80$43d8...@fmkaffen.ix.netcom.com>...
>Intelligent people often come to the same conclusions - Nancy=SCUM.
Bob & Trish Yana
did have a little help)
Back to the topic at hand. The site looks like they care very much for their
dogs, I certainly would go out and have a look myself, as I would do with
any breed, before making a purchase.
Trish
cyberwolf wrote in message <4O2H1.1573$Ua4.4...@news.axxsys.net>...
cyberwolf
Nancy E.Holmes or R. Nelson Ruffin
pass that practical nurse exam with this handicap?
You stated that Belle was alive and well in several places - I guess you
forgot that and 'killed' her again.
So far not a word about how you are OFA'ing your dogs, testing for any of
the other problems prevalent in the breed or even doing something as minor
as competing in ANY kind of event with your dogs. You just keep breeding
them.
The only difference I see between an average BYB or mill is that people
tried to educate you a bit and point you in the right direction and you
completely refuse to be bothered with anything from anyone except of course
for the constant advertising you do for your poorly bred pups.
As for your dogs being indoors are you forgetting that chained out rescue
dog you own? Is he neutered yet? And what about that chain link run for
your 'stud dog' you boasted about elsewhere?
I reserve my sympathy for those deserving of it - the puppy machines you
claim are your pets.
Nancy
Bob & Trish Yana <gr8d...@midwest.net> wrote in article
<6sgvro$mk3$1...@supernews.com>...
> You are quite right Nancy, not everyone is so foolish as to believe all
of
> your high and mighty "I am the only one who should breed dogs"
hornblowing.
> Again, I will reiterate for those reading impaired. We suffered a great
loss
> when Belle was lost during her whelp. You, like Tibbi, cannot seem to do
> anymore than try to pour salt in open wounds. There again, it shows just
> what a "compassionate" human being you are.
> Trish
>
> Nancy E.Holmes or R. Nelson Ruffin wrote in message
> <01bdd54b$2fad6c40$26d8...@fmkaffen.ix.netcom.com>...
Nancy E.Holmes or R. Nelson Ruffin
that is beyond your grasp. The news to you is still the same - responsible
breeders and owners take one look at your methods of puppy production and
think -SCUM.
Nancy
Bob & Trish Yana <gr8d...@midwest.net> wrote in article
<6sgvrb$cd5$1...@supernews.com>...
Nancy E.Holmes or R. Nelson Ruffin
like you.
No I would never bother to read or join such a list but for some odd reason
people think I might care that my guesses about your motives were correct.
I am sure you manage to get positive email from folks - there are plenty of
mills in line no doubt for your BYB dogs.<6sh0a8$400$1...@supernews.com>...
> snip and wipe off slime
Nancy E.Holmes or R. Nelson Ruffin
can skip reading it - I do that a lot when I see posts from folks I know I
will not be interested in or on topics I care little about.
Certainly I posted an on topic reply initially to this thread about the
mill or BYB page that is masquerading as a 'good breeder' by using buzz
words they don't quite seem to understand. Of course when the Yanas' as
millers chimed in support of the mill it should have come as no surprise to
anyone.
As for making the Yanas look good I doubt all of Avon or Mary Kay herself
could manage that cleanup job.
BTW I have repeatedly told the Yanas NOT to email me - its bad enough
seeing trash in the groups without it being in my mailbox.
Nancy
Melanie L Chang <mlc...@mail2.sas.upenn.edu> wrote in article
<6shnmr$i9v$4...@netnews.upenn.edu>...
> Oh, for doG's sake -- Trish, Nancy, Tibbi -- would you mind taking this
> to email? I think that most of the regulars here would agree that
> Trish's breeding practices are questionable at best and grossly
> irresponsible at worst, but all the bickering is only serving to (a) make
> Trish look better than she should and (b) take this thread completely
> off-topic.
>
> Please, let's not go there again.
>
> --
>
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
> | No one ever understood my wild and
> Melanie Lee Chang | secret ways. They used to say I was
> Department of Anthropology | like a cat, only purring to get what
> University of Pennsylvania | she wanted. But that's not true. I
> mlc...@sas.upenn.edu | was in love with the whole world and
> | all that lived in its rainy arms.
>
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
Nancy E.Holmes or R. Nelson Ruffin
Nancy
note the degeneration to personal attacks began with the Yanas who cannot
defend their breeding practices so therefor attack anyone who questions
them on them.
Chris Kosmakos <chri...@netcom.com> wrote in article
<chriskozE...@netcom.com>...
>snip
Dogman
1998 02:07:17 GMT, "Nancy E.Holmes or R. Nelson Ruffin"
<fmka...@ix.netcom.com> says:
>Ah higher than a kite no doubt.
>Nancy
Better to be higher than a kite than lower than whale shit.
:>)
--
Dogman
dog...@i1.net
New! Dogman's Book Recommendations
http://www.i1.net/~dogman/books.htm
About Hunting Retrievers
http://www.i1.net/~dogman/fieldtrl.htm
About The Finest Sour Mash Whisky Under The Sun
http://www.georgedickel.com
"Violence, when there are alternatives, is immoral.
Violence, when there are no alternatives, is survival."
Dogman
"Do unto others as they do unto you."
Dogman
Cris Waller
<fmka...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
>You know this is usenet where if you are not interested in the thread you
>can skip reading it - I do that a lot when I see posts from folks I know I
>will not be interested in or on topics I care little about.
The problem here is that, once the conversation becomes a personal
Lisa D.
>I started the thread. I was asking if these (the people of "pineneedles
>poodles") people seemed like resposible breeders.
Bob & Trish Yana wrote:
> Back to the topic at hand. The site looks like they care very much for their
> dogs, I certainly would go out and have a look myself, as I would do with
> any breed, before making a purchase.
I think caring for one's dogs is wonderful, but in Pineneedles case,
caring does
not equal responsible breeding. In regards to Cyberwolf's question, it
seemed to
me from viewing their site that they are just breeding to breed ($$$).
There was no mention of pedigrees, titles earned, they barely mentioned
health testing...if one is going to go through all that trouble to put
up a web site, why not go all out and show people that you are breeding
the best there is. IMO, that means dogs having titles at both ends and
proof of excellent, sound health & temperment by having all the
necessary health/temperment testing done. If I remember correctly, they
had no affiliation with any type of breed club, and that right there
makes me wonder why. I think if you are interested in this particular
breeder, I would join the email list for this particular breed and find
out what other breeders are doing as far as breeding programs. Also, I
know this is mentioned all the time, (IMO, it can never be mentioned too
much!), but go to Diane Blackman's ethics link;
http://www.dog-play.com/ethics.html
This is a must-view site. And by the way Cyberwolf, I'm not a breeder.
I'm fairly new to dogs, I've only had my dobe for 6 years, but I've
soaked up some fantastic information from the people on these newsgroups
and breed-related email lists.
--
TTYL,
Lisa ldouz@earthlinkdotnet
(to email, replace dot)
Bob & Trish Yana
You do have some valid points. Although, as I have already been branded a
BYB here, my opinions are of little significance.
But, I will say that just because a dog does not have titles, does not make
is less of a dog. Or less worthy of breeding. If it meets the standard set
for its particular breed, as does the sire, then how do you know that you
might or might not be breeding future CH.?
Health testing is indeed a major factor in breeding. I am not familiar with
this particular line of dogs, so I would have to leave that to the experts
here, as to what genetic testing would actually need to be done.
Again, most breeders have pedigrees on request. You would be surprised to
know that I run into quite a few people who are looking for pet quality
danes, and could care less about the pedigrees or even know what my dogs
lines are. (Which I am very proud of, and we do have pedigrees on all our
dogs.)
As far as being involved in a breed club, that is a terrific idea, but not
always do-able. Where I live in Illinois, the nearest Dane club is in
Chicago, which is 350 miles away from me, I doubt that I would make many of
those meetings. >VBG<
Again, I would have to say, people who are into breeding for money, usually
do not take the time to socialize or care for the total health of their
dogs. I have seen this with my own eyes, a dane breeder who lives south of
me. His dogs were skin and bones, one has a mastitis from a litter that she
whelped over 7 months ago......no vet care, this dog is eaten alive with a
systemic infection, and the guy calls me wanting to know how come she isn't
gaining any weight!
JMO,
Trish
Lisa D. wrote in message <35ED0F...@fake-address.com>...
Leslie Weinberg
times. Leslie
Chris Kosmakos
:
: But, I will say that just because a dog does not have titles, does not make
: is less of a dog. Or less worthy of breeding. If it meets the standard set
: for its particular breed, as does the sire, then how do you know that you
: might or might not be breeding future CH.?
The whole point of shows and trials is to help identify and evaluate
breeding stock. Without participating in them, all we have is the opinion
of the owner without the advantage of the evaluation of multiple 3rd
parties. Every owner in the world is subject to kennel blindness.
Lynn K.
--
chri...@netcom.com
Bob & Trish Yana
anything remotely like a dog that has not been in the show ring.
Now, are you saying that if a dog is shown and does not take points, or a
title, that he/she is not worthy of being bred? B.S.
Chris Kosmakos wrote in message ...
Bob & Trish Yana
Chris Kosmakos wrote in message ...
Just like so many people here are afflicted with opinion blindness?
Patricia Murk
thing is you try your hardest to breed the best you can. You take them
out to shows ad pay for an opinion, If you do not agree that does not
make you kennel blind. I prefer the baby face to the Foxy type. Not all
judges agree, Not all judges disagree. I have always refered to showing
and breeding As "The dog Game" Nothing is written in stone. When the
parent club decides to change the standard, they may say no foxy look.
But then again they may decide no Baby faced look. Breed to the
standard today and tommorow it just might not be up to standard. Thats
the way it goes. When the top breeders come to use my dog, I
fell that is verification of the worth of my dog , far more than the
ribbons won in the show ring. And not every breed of every dog has HD
vWD, ect ect. There are no genetic tests available for problems in some
breeds. Demanding this of posters in one case proved an embarassment to
one young lady as I recall. Lighten up ya all ! You arent going to
change the world. You may put a teenie tiny dent here and there but you
arent going to change anything by being bullies.
Pat and her Poms Fla
dogsnus
snip
> The problem here is that, once the conversation becomes a personal
> argument (as in this thread between you and Joe or between you, Trish
> and Terri) ,
MOI???
*Shirley *you don't mean ME?"
This is my first post to this thread to date.
I have not had the time nor inclincation to get involved with
this thing at the moment. I'm not even sure I care anymore,
but that's another story.
As it happens, I agree with you, time to change the name of the
thread.
(And yeah, I know, don't call you * Shirley*!)
:)
Terri
Nancy E.Holmes or R. Nelson Ruffin
Just how do your dogs rate with OFA?
You may lie like a rug but you forget you left an audit trail.
Nancy
Bob & Trish Yana <gr8d...@midwest.net> wrote in article
<6sidnc$irn$1...@supernews.com>...
> snip trash
Nancy E.Holmes or R. Nelson Ruffin
topic within a thread to change headings - I say figure out who's posts you
are likely to be interested in and only read those. For example the MiKi
thread of endless proportions.
My newsreader permits me to view who is replying to whom which makes it
pretty easy to decide the replies I don't wish to bother reading.
As for personal arguments I don't recall anyone blasting you for similar
occurrences - but then I don't bother to read any of them after the first
few prove to be dud posts :-)
As I am picky about who I let email me (preferring spam to things from
folks like the Yanas) any conversations *they* wish to have with me (I'm
not interested in initiating any such conversations) will be in the groups
- feel free to skip them.
Nancy
Cris Waller <Cr...@ix.netcom.com> wrote in article
<35edb3c3...@nntp.ix.netcom.com>...
>
> snip
> The problem here is that, once the conversation becomes a personal
> argument (as in this thread between you and Joe or between you, Trish
blac...@dog-play.com
do lack of titles mean the dog is unworthy. Titles are, however, an
important tool for both breeder and buyer. Any person who is novice
enough in the dog world as to need advice on how to evaluate a breeder or
the dog they intend to buy is too novice to be buying from breeders of
untitled dogs.
Competition, whether performance or conformation, is a useful tool in
measuring specific qualities of the dog, and in inferring other qualities.
Titles are a tool to the breeder. The process of the competition can help
Note that I did not say the breeder has to agree, but the process itself
can help keep the breeder grounded.
I can understand why someone very familiar with the breed, and with dogs
in general, might buy a puppy out of untitled parents. A person who is
actually skilled in evaluating dogs, pedigrees, knows the breed, is
familiar with various lines, and has a lot of experience might well be
skilled enough to not be taking a big risk in selecting that rough
diamond. The average puppy buyer, including the average dabbler in show
dogs lacks that kind of skill. For most puppy buyers *some* kind of title
is a significant aid in evaluating the credibility of the knowledge and
skill of the breeder.
It would be nice if everyone could just tell the difference between
honesty and B.S. but that isn't reality. Pieces of paper, for all the
faults that can be found in them, are one of the most solid pieces of
evidence the puppy buyer can get. That is true whether it is a
conformation title, which attests to the liklihood that the dog at least
meets breed standards, to performance titles, which attest to the basic
abilities of the dog, to the certificates issued attesting that specified
health tests were given and the results.
Titles are a tool for buyers that help them distinguish between the
breeder who is earnest but mistaken about the qualities of their dog and
the breeder who has had those qualities independently evaluated. The dog
could be terrific and without titles, but it could also be seriously
lacking. Hopefully at some point the conformation world will add titles
that are similiar to those given in some performance events, a
certification that the dog meets standards, even if not particularly
outstanding.
The average puppy buyer has no ready tools to deterimine whether the
ernest and fervent claims of the breeder are "right on the mark" or so
much B.S. It is not unusual for the breeder who loves their dog to
overlook problems. Sometimes, especially with temperament, the problems
are overlooked because the breeder has learned to cope so well they no
longer are aware of the problem. Sometimes their lack of involvement in
dog related activities means they haven't developed their own skills
enough to be able to truly evaluate the dog. If a breeder claims to know
the breed standard and that the dogs meet it, how can the buyer best
evaluate the credibility of that claim? Titles really help the buyer in
assessing whether the claims of the breeder stand-up to objective
evaluation.
In many breeds there are more than sufficient dogs available to satisfy
those seeking "pet quality" dogs. In these breeds, especially, adding the
criteria of "titles" before breeding serves to focus breeding in a manner
that adds to the ability to evaluate the soundness of the dog as a
companion animal. As a non-breed person I am not especially enamoured of
conformation titles. There are, however, a great number of potential
activities that can demonstrate to the buyer that the breeder is willing
to test their dogs against established standards. I can't think of any
good reason for a person to breed dogs but be so uninvolved in the dog
world that they cannot title the dogs they breed.
To continue my verbose discussion on titles see "What does AKC mean"
http://www.dog-play.com/akc.html
Diane Blackman
di...@dog-play.com http://www.dog-play.com/
- - - - - - - -
"Recognizing the social nature of dogs, we can easily see how confining
them near, but without direct access to, other humans or animals produces
a very potent form of stress and tension." "The Body Language and Emotion
of Dogs" by Myrna M. Milani, DVM.
Chris Kosmakos
: anything remotely like a dog that has not been in the show ring.
: Now, are you saying that if a dog is shown and does not take points, or a
: title, that he/she is not worthy of being bred? B.S.
We are coming from very different points of view. I do not believe that
there is any justification for deliberately breeding for pet quality dogs.
I care far more about working ability in working breeds than conformation
titles and believe there is no excuse for breeding a retriever that won't
retrieve or a Border Collie that won't herd, no matter how close they are
to the standard. Remember, I have a breed where the offspring can't even
be registered with the SVG without parents evaluated in the conformation
ring for breed worthiness. And that can only be shown once as an adult
without a working title.
Diane provided a complete and thoughtful explanation of why objective
evaluation of a dog should be part of any breeding decision. Yes, I do
not believe a dog is worthy of being bred unless there is a good reason
why he/she should be bred.
Lynn K.
Chris Kosmakos
: Chris wrote that every kennel owner is kennel blind. I dissagree. The
: thing is you try your hardest to breed the best you can. You take them
: out to shows ad pay for an opinion, If you do not agree that does not
: make you kennel blind.
Yeah, that was a little strong. I do think, however, that kennel blindness
is a real problem with people who breed a couple of litters without
participating in some form of competition where their dogs are subject to
evaluation. It isn't just a problem of the breeder not realizing where
their dog might not be as good as it should be. I think you really need
to look at a lot of good dogs to educate your eye. We all can read the
standard for any breed until we have it memorized, but you need to actually
compare real dogs to that standard to develop a mental image of what you are
breeding for.
Lynn K.
--
chri...@netcom.com
AVRAMA GINGOLD
CK> Bob & Trish Yana (gr8d...@midwest.net) wrote:
CK> :
CK> : But, I will say that just because a dog does not have titles, does not ma
CK> : is less of a dog. Or less worthy of breeding. If it meets the standard se
CK> : for its particular breed, as does the sire, then how do you know that you
CK> : might or might not be breeding future CH.?
CK>
CK> The whole point of shows and trials is to help identify and evaluate
CK> breeding stock. Without participating in them, all we have is the opinion
CK> of the owner without the advantage of the evaluation of multiple 3rd
CK> parties. Every owner in the world is subject to kennel blindness.
CK>
CK> Lynn K.
CK> --
CK> chri...@netcom.com
On the other paw, I recently saw a pedigree for Indy (Ch. Royal
Tudor's WIld as the Wind, UDTX, ROM, DPCA Top 20 Conformation,
DPCA Top 20 Obedience, first dog to go BiS at Westminster already
with a CD), and neither her mother nor her maternal grandparents
had titles. What they did have were genes.
avrama & shomer
In other words, never say never.
.. nfx v2.7 [C0000] Best place to bury a good dog:in the heart of his master
Mrc5555
Kosmakos) writes:
> I do think, however, that kennel blindness
>is a real problem with people who breed a couple of litters without
>participating in some form of competition where their dogs are subject to
>evaluation.
I think that this is partially true, but of course not in all instances.
Sometimes, it is kennel blindness, other times it is interpretation of the
standard, which is always subjective. I think Pat and her Poms made a good
point in that when breed standards change, the finer points of a breed may
become an area of gray. Not only would a change in a breed standard cause
this, but also the current trend, which does occur. In Bernese Mountain Dogs,
for example, I understand that while certain parameters of size are called for
in the standard, at some point, the trend was to go towards the smaller end of
the scale and now we are being told at breed seminars that the larger, but
balanced, dog is preferred. They are afraid that size will be lost.
However, one more comment on the ability to assess the attributes of dogs.
Kennel blindness, or whatever term you wish to use, isn't exclusive to newer
people in a breed, there are long time breeders who compete and show who never
seem to grasp the essentials of a breed standard or what type is. I think it
is a matter of some people have an eye for dogs, others do not. If you do not
have an eye for dogs, it is very difficult to learn it.
Marc
Bob & Trish Yana
seeing any wild boar matches recently. But I can tell you this, I bet a
couple of my danes would do wonderfully in that particular arena. So, you
see it is awfully hard for them to get titles in what they were bred for.
JMO,
Trish
Chris Kosmakos wrote in message ...
>Bob & Trish Yana (gr8d...@midwest.net) wrote:
Chris Kosmakos
: seeing any wild boar matches recently. But I can tell you this, I bet a
: couple of my danes would do wonderfully in that particular arena. So, you
: see it is awfully hard for them to get titles in what they were bred for.
Who said anything about getting titles in what a dog was bred for? No
performance titles are exact duplicates of the actual work. But things
like obedience test that the dog is capable of learning to work with
human direction. And yes, I think that it is important for working breeds
to prove that they are of working before being bred.
Lynn K.
--
chri...@netcom.com
Patricia Murk
certain dogs do not have titles. Some top producers are sired by
untitled dogs. A Pom bitch with no title is the current top producer in
her breed. The genes are there. The sparkle may be lacking. Perhaps she
would not use her ears. Did she drop her tail when stopping in front of
the judge? Not faults mind you but you won't get majors if your dog does
not show. Perhaps an accident , broken toes{seen that in more than a few
Dobes} A scar. A torn ear, ect ect.
AVRAMA GINGOLD
PM> certain dogs do not have titles. Some top producers are sired by
PM> untitled dogs. A Pom bitch with no title is the current top producer in
PM> her breed. The genes are there. The sparkle may be lacking. Perhaps she
PM> would not use her ears. Did she drop her tail when stopping in front of
PM> the judge? Not faults mind you but you won't get majors if your dog does
PM> not show. Perhaps an accident , broken toes{seen that in more than a few
PM> Dobes} A scar. A torn ear, ect ect.
PM>
PM> Pat and her Poms Fla
PM>
PM>
Definitely a dog must "show" to be a showdog. Some top
winners have been better showdogs than representatives of
their breed. According to old-time long-time Boxer people
to whom I've spoken, the top-winning BiS Ch. Bangaway of
Sirrah Crest was NOT the best Boxer of his day by any
means, but by Anubis he was the showingest fool there was.
A more recent dog, whom many of you may recall, was Hatter
(Ch. Covey Tucker Hill's Manhattan). Gads, but that dog
showed himself. (Jim Moses, his handler, admitted as
much.) During Best in Show judging one Westminster, as
the judge examined another dog, Hatter looked at the
spectators,gave one loud bark, jumped up in the air and
came back down in a perfect self stack. Everyone, including
the judge, ended by looking at Hatter instead of the dog
who was supposed to be judged.
avrama & shomer
.. nfx v2.7 [C0000] We're all in the gutter; some are looking at the stars
CR E
"BTW, how is Herriss the Great Viszla? OFA'd yet?"
Be kind Trish, Tibbi bib is too young to know that AKC shows are a forum
for the showing of BREEDING STOCK. And that before you show a potential
BREEDING ANIMAL you should at least have a preliminary x-ray done of the
hips, so that you have an idea of the physical wellbeing of your future
BROOD BITCH!!!
She is too innocent to realize that there are other important reasons to
x-ray a dog other than simply getting it OFA'd. Do you not remember the
furor among the supposed experts, led by Sherlock's great-granddaughter,
when I asked why the dog had never even had a prelim at 10-12 months of
age?? All the questions about why would you x-ray a dog at that age
when it could not be OFA'd until it was two years old?????
The funny thing is, you can x-ray and get a reading of excellent, and
breed to a male with a rating of excellent, and you still have a 50%
chance of producing dysplastic puppies!!!!!!! Unless you go back to the
very beginning of the breed and dig up all the relatives and check their
hips, you will never know the GENOTYPE OF YOUR DOGS HIPS!! You that
phenotypically they do not show dysplasia, but until they come up with a
DNA test for HD, you are still engaging in a crap shoot!!
And these people are so rabid about testing they even were ignorant
enough to ridicule me for not having my Toy Manchesters OFA'd, and
having the numbers to show them!!! Forget there is no Manchester data
base!! That does not matter to them! They are such geniuses that they
did not even know that Manchester do not get nor produce canine HD!!!
Ditto for Whippets!! My youngest Whippets are going to be 6 in October,
and are all nuetered!! Have been for 5 years!! But I was supposed to
be a disreputable breeder because my Whippets were not OFA'd!!!!!!!!
What a joke these people are!
My friend has had more laughs reading the ignorant postings from some of
the experts in the last couple days than she has had in years!! She
keeps gasping "they don't know what the f***k they are talking about"!!!
I tell her---see, I told ya so!!! She just got her Web terminal July
20, so is just now starting to check out other areas of cyberspace.
Anyone who has any questions about frogs, fish, snakes, lizzards, cats,
dogs or exotic spiders, contact me, and I will relay it to her and get
back to you on it.
Anyway, Trish you should have learned by this time Tibbi knows nothing
about nothing. How could she?? She has no experience from which to
draw, so all she can do is parrot what others say. If she only spoke on
those matters about which she KNOWS from personal experience, she would
be a mute!!! She would not need a keyboard. So be sweet!!!
Regards,
Carole E.
CR E
breeding stock. Without participating in them, all we have is the
3rd parties. Every owner in the world is subject to kennel blindness. "
Lynn K.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I am going to step in here and share a secret with your people who
neither breed nor show, but who simply seem to repeat what others have
told you.
#1--a good breeder can point out to you the faults of every dog on
his/her property.
#2--Everyone who is inside the "in" group of the pure bred dog fancy can
tell you that a title of champion does not mean diddley. Only newbies
and fools are impressed with championships. And once
you get out of the breed, and into the group, you are talking pure
politics!!
#3--Many times, the worst looking dogs produce the best puppies!!! In
many of the toy breeds, your brood bitches are way over standard size,
but they produce small typey puppies when properly bred.
#4--Many, many of the top winning dogs of different breeds over a long
period of time have never produced squat as far as quality!!
What you who do not know about showing and breeding fail to realize is
that the TRUE VALUE OF A DOG IS NOT WHAT IT LOOKS LIKE, BUT WHAT IT
PRODUCES!!! Those who know me will know that those caps are for
emphasis, not shouting.
Titles are absolutely no indication of the quality of the offspring.
Working titles at least prove that a dog can do what its breed exists to
do, but do not guarantee a body that can carry the instinct around and
allow it to do what it is supposed to do!!
In other words, a BC in a body that has no substance is not going to
have the stamina to herd sheep all day.
Having multiple opinions does not mean squat as far as a breeding
program goes. If you do not know your stock, and what is behind them,
you know nothing of use. The parents of a dog are only 50% of the
equation. You have to know the grandparents and great-grandparents, and
what type of offspring they produced.
Showing is fun, and an interesting study in scams, but is not vital to a
breeding program.
My first litter of Whippets, out of a bitch who had never seen a show
ring, from a male who had a very impressive, well know background
produced some damn good pups. One of the bitches was sought out by the
people who had been the top Whippets breeders in the world for YEARS,
and produced many record breakers. One of their dogs won BIS at
Westminster twice. And they were anxious enough to get Princess that
they offered to buy her. They could have any Whippet on the PLANET!!
So I gave them the bitch on a co-owership. She got killed when her pups
were five weeks old. A part of me died with her.
But, I have her great daughter sleeping over here on the sofa---14 years
old in Oct.!! She was shown a couple times, and bred once and had 5
pups.
Forgive the digression. Happens when you get old, you tend to get
carried away into your memories and past glories!!
Anyway, do not get sucked into the "Title"
trap. In some of the smaller breeds, championships still mean of dog is
of outstanding quality. But for the more widely shown breeds, a
championship just means that the owners had enough money to pay to show
the dog long enough to finish it.
Regards,
Carole E.
Oh--as far as kennel blindness. The trick is to learn to fault your own
dog before any one else has a chance to do it for ya!!<G>
Bob & Trish Yana
You are absolutely right. I will try to be more tolerable of ignorance.
Nice to see you back.
Best regards,
Trish
CR E wrote in message <11190-35E...@newsd-152.iap.bryant.webtv.net>...