Why did my dog KILL my puppy???
MV Tanning
unneutered -mistake) named Chewy. Chewy is basically a good dog except he does
not really like people. He has never bit anyone, but it makes it obvious he
does not like them. If we (me and my girlfriend) are around and someone goes up
to pet him, he lowers his stance, growls, and even whines like he is afraid.
The only way he will let other people pet him is if he goes up to them first. I
tried to socialize him as a puppy, i would walk him and ask people to pet him,
but he always pulled away and growled. Never the less, he has never bitten
anyone and has NEVER shown any aggression to me or my girlfriend.
A couple of weeks back we got a 11 week old female APBT. We introduced them and
after he displayed his dominance by acting like he was mounting her, they
became the very best of friends. They would play and run side by side all day
long. He would always try to entice her to play tug o war with the blanket they
sleep on, he would sleep with his head on her or let her curl her body right
next to his. He used to let her "mockingly" win while play fighting, he would
lie on his back in a submissive posture while she nipped at his face, and
sometimes she would bite to hard and he would just bear it. I walked them both
every night, and they were great walking together. When she got parvo and I
took her to the vet, he sat at home depressed, didn't act happy at all. When
she was better and we brought her home he and she were the happiest dogs in the
world! They basically looked like they loved each other, and he acted like he
was her protector...
Last night I came home and noticed that he was the only one at the screen door
waiting for me. I knew something was wrong. I opened up the door and popped my
head outside and she was lying there, next to an empty food bowl, dead. I
couldn't believe it. (The food bowl was left outside because it was empty. I
had started using another food bowl to feed them instead) I sat down next to
her and her body was cold, and her limbs stiff. There wasnt any blood and I
thought at first maybe he didn't kill her. I turned her over to the other side
and noticed her dew claw had been ripped off. When I turned her over there was
a little blood on her fur but no sign of a fight. Then I look closely at her
head and I saw them. Little tiny puncture holes, near her eye, on top of her
head, on the back of her head. I lost it. I knew in my heart what had happened.
She had probably been sniffing my damn food bowl I left outside, and Chewy came
up to her. He then grabbed her by the head, and she was trying to get away, so
much so that she lost her dewclaw in his chin (He has a cut on his chin that is
swollen and probably infected) and while she was struggling to get away, he
somehow killed her. And I assume it is because of that food bowl I left
outside. I was crying, petting her little head and body, wishing I was god so
bad. I never realized how powerless I was until last night. I wanted to rub her
and make her come back to life, I was telling my baby that I was sorry and
holding her stiff body against my chest. And then Chewy came up to me like
nothing was wrong, his tail wagging, while I was sobbing about my girl. I went
apeshit. I put her down, I punch him in the face while screaming at him, I
kicked him in the ribs hard, I kicked his back end as hard as I could twice, I
kept punching him. I think I was trying to kill him. He just let me hit him the
whole time, he didnt try to really run away, and he just sat there with his
eyes open looking at me. I stopped, realized I didn't know what the hell I was
doing anymore, went inside and cried. After I was done crying, I brought Chewy
in, gave him a bath (he had blood on the front of his coat, and smelled like he
had killed something), then I gave him antibiotics for his inflamed cut on his
chin and made sure he could sit properly, and I checked his ribs to see if he
hurt. I know I should not have hit him like that, I basically abused him and I
shouldn't have. I never have done anything like that before, I was against
people beating there dogs like that. I took Scout (my sweet little baby puppy)
to my old house, buried her, I even brought Chewy along in the truck to spend
time with him (Guilty over beating him, I was trying to justify it was in his
nature, he is a dog, so it was wrong of me to get mad at him), then I went home
cried some more, and went to bed.
I woke up this morning depressed like crazy. I went out, gave Chewy his food
and more antibiotics, but I didn't want to be near him. Inside, even if it is
my fault and he is a dog, I don't want anything to do with him. I still gave
him the medicine, pet him, told him he was a good boy, and now I am here. I
have a couple of questions now because I need to make a desicion on whether to
put him down or not.
Why would he KILL a puppy. I know if it were another dog, since he is an APBT
that he would kill it, but why a female puppy? Does that signify that he is not
a tempermentally sound dog? Is it really because he is an APBT or does he have
a screw loose. She was only 14 weeks old.. If I left the food bowl (empty food
bowl) out to other APBT owners, or dog owners for that matter, would your dog
have killed her?
Does he realize he killed Scout. He doesn't act like he did anything wrong. He
wants to play fetch, he doesn't act like he misses her....
Since he killed a puppy, and he is not friendly with people, does that mean he
can't be trusted when my fiance and I decide to have children? I know people
and animal aggression are two totally seperate issues, but this was a puppy. He
has never shown aggression towards me at all, even when I lost it last night
and beat him.
Lastly, should I put the dog down? I love him, I really do, but I don't want an
animal that I have to always worry about killing things all the time. I don't
want to think that he will bite some kid someday (He will chase them with his
hair standing up if they run, at least he would when he was a puppy. I haven't
seen what he will do now). I am so unsure what to do. I feel like if I put him
down, I am evil. But if it is the right thing to do, I will do it. I won't like
it, but I will.
Petyr J. Smithe
>I don't know where to start. I already had a 2 year old APBT (male and
>unneutered -mistake) named Chewy. A couple of weeks back we got a
> 11 week old female APBT. Last night I came home and noticed that he was the only one at the screen door
>waiting for me. I knew something was wrong. I opened up the door and popped my
>head outside and she was lying there, next to an empty food bowl, dead.
>Why would he KILL a puppy. I know if it were another dog, since he is an APBT
>that he would kill it, but why a female puppy?
What did you expect? Pit bulls were bred to hurt and kill other dogs.
You admit this yourself what you say "I know if it were another dog,
since he is an APBT that he would kill it". Why did you buy dogs are
genetically programmed to kill other dogs if you didn't want a
dog-killer? Do you think other dogs have no right to live, only yours?
It just disgusts me that people get these things, then act so shocked
when they start killing.
And if you think a human baby would be safe around this pit bull (or
any other pit bulls), you don't deserve to be a parent. Picture your
toddler reaching for his food bowl someday...
MV Tanning
got it for a pet. AND I TRIED to raise him good. I payed lots of attention to
him, always took him to the vet, trained him. You STUPID FUCK, I used to take
him with me 8 or 9 hours out of the day when I used to do real estate. I NEVER
ONCE let him fight another dog, I Never let him act aggressive towards another
dog, And I never implied it was ok for him to kill another dog. I Just thought
it was irrespoonsible to not know about the history of the dog before I got it
and I KNOW in its history, IT IS ANIMAL Aggressive. I just do not know if that
applies to puppies, and I want to know if he has a screw loose or it is normal
and I was the one irresponsible. SO SHUT THE FUCK UP you piece of shit. I do
not need to hear you fucken comment on just because I got a pitbull I should
not be a parent. I did not mean for him to kill my puppy and I am incredibly
bummed out about it. So do me a favor and keep your fucken comments to
yourself. I am not looking for people to jump in here and say "It is because
all pitbulls are pieces of shit and need to be put to sleep." I was most likely
the irresponsible one, and THAT is what I need to know...
DogStar716
>that he would kill it, but why a female puppy?
APBT's can be very dog aggressive. Doesn't matter what breed the other dog is.
> Does that signify that he is not
>a tempermentally sound dog? Is it really because he is an APBT or does he
>have
>a screw loose.
He sounds like he is tempermentally unsound when it comes to people, not other
dogs. He may be a danger not only to other dogs, but to people as well. His
dog aggression is considered normal within the breed. But not the people
aggression.
>She was only 14 weeks old.. If I left the food bowl (empty food
>bowl) out to other APBT owners, or dog owners for that matter, would your dog
>have killed her?
My own dog is protective over his food. I don't have another dog at the
moment, but if I did, I would not leave his dish around another dog. You
unfortunately made a sad mistake. As for putting your dog down... if it was
just a case of him killing the pup, I would say no, and just have him as an
only dog.. But your dog sounds like he may one day be a danger to humans, and
that's a whole different story.
>Does he realize he killed Scout
Probably not. He is only a dog after all, and doing what a wild dog would
probably do.
>Since he killed a puppy, and he is not friendly with people, does that mean
>he
>can't be trusted when my fiance and I decide to have children?
I wouldn't trust him.
>I know people
>and animal aggression are two totally seperate issues, but this was a puppy.
Doesn't matter to your dog that it was only a puppy. It was another animal.
Yes, people and dog agression are two totally different things, but your dog
has both tendancies.
>Lastly, should I put the dog down? I love him, I really do, but I don't want
>an
>animal that I have to always worry about killing things all the time.
That is a decision you will have to make. A dog that is aggressive towards
people is a liability. I wish you luck, and am very sorry for your loss.
Dogstar716
"He is your friend, your partner, your defender, your dog. You are
his life, his love, his leader. He will be yours, faithful and true,
to the last beat of his heart. You owe it to him to be worthy of such
devotion"
-- Unknow
Manadero
Tanning -
Apparently there is more than one nasty temperament in your household.
The facts are :
You bought your male APBT *knowing* what kind of dog it is (Not flaming here,
there are some really nice PB out there) then you bought a second one and
allowed them the run of the house when you were not there. So yes,
technically, her death is your fault. If you are knowledgeable about the breed
you should know better.
Your original posts stated that the dog has never actually attacked or bitten
anyone, but is agressive towards everyone but yourself and your GF.
As for the question about a baby, you obviously have never been a parent.
Checking out the food dish is the *least* intrusive thing that a 1 year old is
ever going to do to your dog.
Have you asked your fiance about her feelings towards the dog? Would you,
regardless of what the PB owners say, ever trust this dog with your future
children? You *do* realize that if this dog ever attacked/bit your child that
you could be prosecuted for having such an animal? The doctor would report the
incident, the child welfare league would get involved and they frown on
endangerment.
IMO there are so many good natured dogs put to death needlessly every day that
it just doesn't make sense to purposely keep a dog who is dangerous.
I could give you platitudes about how you can work it out, etc. But the truth
is that even if the dog isn't put down you need to consider placing it in a
home with no children, no future children, and with someone who does not abuse
the animal for doing something that it has been bred to do. Unfortunately, I
think the only people that would be interested in such a dog would be the
people looking for their next "warrior". :(
If it were my dog, REGARDLESS OF BREED, and I knew that the only thing keeping
it from biting people was a strong leash and arm, and it had killed my other
dog.... well, I'm sorry, but it would have been at the vet this morning.
Robin
Christy
Don't react to them at all.
It sounds like you have the "why" all figured out already; puppy got near
food dish and adult attacked him. I'm not sure why the adult and puppy were
left alone together, outside, but it looks to me like you just didn't know
any better and I won't criticise you when clearly you are hurting over this
situation.
Chewy definitely sounds like he has serious temperament problems that are
totally unrelated to the puppy's death. Even if he had the normal pit bull
temperament and was not human aggressive, he would probably still have
killed the puppy. I don't own pits, so I don't know if food guarding is
common to them, but it seems to be in many dogs! Whether the dish was empty
or full probably didn't make a difference; the dish equalled food in Chewy's
mind.
It sounds like Chewy was poorly bred, if he had these temperament problems
as a puppy. I can't predict his behavior towards any children you may have,
but it sounds like a risk I personally wouldn't want to take. Another thing
that bothers me is your attack on Chewy; maybe anger management courses
would be a good idea before you have kids. Seriously, that kind of reaction,
even in grief, is not a normal thing; no offense intended.
I would suggest that you contact a trainer in your area to assess Chewy's
behavior and see if you can work on his temperament before putting him down.
I would definitely not add any more pets or children into the picture until
you do that.
Truly, I am sorry for your loss.
Christy
MV Tanning wrote in message
<19990204115727...@ng-cd1.aol.com>...
Petyr J. Smithe
>Look you fucking dipshit. I did not get this dog to hurt other people's dog. I
>got it for a pet. AND I TRIED to raise him good. I payed lots of attention to
>him, always took him to the vet, trained him. You STUPID FUCK, I used to take
>him with me 8 or 9 hours out of the day when I used to do real estate. I NEVER
>ONCE let him fight another dog, I Never let him act aggressive towards another
>dog, And I never implied it was ok for him to kill another dog. I Just thought
>it was irrespoonsible to not know about the history of the dog before I got it
>and I KNOW in its history, IT IS ANIMAL Aggressive. I just do not know if that
>applies to puppies, and I want to know if he has a screw loose or it is normal
>and I was the one irresponsible.
And I repeat: What did you expect? Pit bulls were bred to hurt and
kill other dogs. You knew this, but proceeded to go out and buy a
pitbull anyway. Then you got another dog. And your pit bull killed
it. Duh.
MV Tanning
fault. Originally, when I got the dog, he was only 8 weeks old, and he wasn't
afraid of people/aggresive towards people. I still don't know if he is
considered to be aggressive or afraid, and I don't know if that matters. The
reason I got him is because I had read that they are one of the most people
friendly dogs around, and I love having animals. I made a mistake I regret very
much. I do not want to give him to someone who will fight him, and in all
honesty, this statement
>dog has never actually attacked or bitten
>anyone, but is agressive towards everyone but yourself and your GF.
is incorrect I guess. He is "afraid?" maybe aggressive if they approach him
but, he never openly acts aggressive towards people, it is more "wary" or "not
sure to if he is a friend or an bad person". I find truth in this statement
you made
>If it were my dog, REGARDLESS OF BREED, and I knew that the only thing
>keeping
>it from biting people was a strong leash and arm, and it had killed my other
>dog.... well, I'm sorry, but it would have been at the vet this morning.
I honestly don't know what he would do if he were to get out and see other
people on his own. I do know that when I walk him and someone approaches us, he
gets wierd. If I am talking to them and acknowledging I know them, he will
simply ignore them and do his own thing. But even if he knows I am their friend
and he is on a leash, he doesn't want other people, especially big men, to pet
him. If they are in the house, he will let them pet him IF he has gone up to
them, but if they approach him, he backs off. He doesn't back off and run away,
but he pulls back kinda like "HEY, don't approach me, let me approach you" and
then he tries to come back to them and sniff them. He doesn't like people
advancing on him. I don't know if he would bite someone if he got out of the
yard on his own. I think he would just play with them if it werent on his
property and I wasn't there. BUT, I also never thought he would kill the puppy
and I dont have the right to make that assumption any more.
>and with someone who does not abuse
>the animal for doing something that it has been bred to do.
I was wrong. I was hurt and I reacted totally wrong. I would take back my
actions if I could, but I can't. I am ashamed for my reaction.
My girlfriend is just as upset as I am but we are trying to be responsible
(after the fact...Really irresponsible) and see it from the living dogs point
of view that his nature is not ours and we messed up.
Anyways, I really appreciate your level headed response. If I have said
anything that makes a difference, please respond.
Aspenskyy
>I
>got it for a pet. AND I TRIED to raise him good. I payed lots of attention to
Look at your attitude. Now try to follow: unpredictable breed + owner with
shitty attitude= bad experience for both. Try a cat next time.
redwi...@newnorth.net
MV Tanning wrote:
> Look you fucking dipshit.
No, *you* look, dipshit. You don't seem stable enough to own a damn chia
pet. Get rid of Chewy before you kill him, since you can't seem to control your
temper, or your dog. Beating the shit out of a dog, for whatever reason, should
get you arrested. Buy a plant or something and 'take care' of that.
Atticus
Petyr J. Smithe
>You bought your male APBT *knowing* what kind of dog it is
Don't forget that he refused to neuter it either.
I'll bet the guys's just like the redneck who came to one of our
agility shows last year. Swaggered in with a un-neutered male pit
bull. The dog had balls so big, I swear it couldn't walk right. They
swung back and forth and looked like they were knocking the dog
off-balance with every step. Hilarious thing was, the *owner* walked
the same way!
Of course, they didn't do any agility, just swaggered and strutted.
The pit bull then proceeded to attack and bite two dogs with NO
provocation whatsover, and we had to call the police and animal
control. The man had to be forcibly removed from the show, all the
while screaming obscenities and threatening to "git" us all.
Jeannette & Amy Zoss
but I am sorry to say that if this were my dog, I would not trust it around
any potential future children or pets.
One of the first things you should have done with this dog was to neuter it
at around 4-6 months of age. I would strongly urge that any dog, regardless
of breed, that you may chose to acquire in the future be neutered/spayed as
soon as it is reasonable to do so.
Whether or not this dog is completely trustworthy is a call that really
can't be made with any accuracy without actually meeting and interacting
with the dog. However, when a dog has killed another dog, I would have
serious reservations about keeping said dog around my home.
I don't know exactly where you live but you may consider finding a few
animal trainers/behaviorists in your vicinity who would be willing to
evaluate the dog for you. Perhaps there are some underlying problems that
you can work through with your dog.
You may also wish to step back and look at the situation objectively; for
example, why did you find it desirable to hit and/or kick your dog? Do you
think this dog will continue to trust you in the future? Since you find it
hard to approach the dog even now without a number of conflicting emotions,
perhaps it would be better for the dog and for the health of your family if
you were to contact breed rescue and consider placing the dog rather than
trying to work through your problems.
Take care,
Amy
*************
Jeannette or
Amy Zoss
KellSh...@worldnet.att.net
http://www.avalon.net/~kellshel/ -Last updated January 7th, 1999
Petyr J. Smithe
>You bought your male APBT *knowing* what kind of dog it is (Not flaming here,
>there are some really nice PB out there) then you bought a second one and
>allowed them the run of the house when you were not there.
Anyone here wondering what this guy's intentions were when he buys a
male dog, refuses to neuter him, and then, as soon as it's sexually
mature, buys a intact young female of the exact same breed and shows
no intentions of keeping them separated? Hmm, doesn't take a rocket
scientist.
Thank god his killer stud-muffin took out it's would-be breeding
partner before she could start popping out the cash crop. That's all
the world needs, more backyard-bred pit bulls with unstable
temperaments, bred by obscenity-spewing, hot-tempered idiots who are
clueless about the breed.
MV Tanning
not been the best for my dog, try as I might. I SHOULD NOT have hit my dog. I
put that in there so everyone would know that he did not turn on me. I did
wrong. I was so hurt and angry. I don't beat him. I just compared this to human
actions which was wrong and thought "You just killed a defensleless baby" and I
lost it. I never should have done that and if I had put my self in that type of
situation (thinking if my dog someday kills my puppy, how am I going to react)
I would have been better prepared and not have beat him as I did. If I were to
put him in a pitbull rescue, I need to find one that will come out and evaluate
him and let me know that maybe he isn't a bad dog and given the right type of
leadership, he can flourish. If they determine that this dog is a "bad dog"
then I will put him down. I have really tried. I have spent countless hours
with this animal, I have tried to be strong enough (not let him always have his
way) and patient. I never hit him until last night. I train him. I give him
all the love, we play, we cuddle, I pet him for hours on end. I play ball with
him sometimes for two hours, and there rarely is a day that goes by and I don't
walk him, train him...etc.. In all my ability, I have been a sacrificing
"parent" and I show him love all the time. Unfortunately, I did not ever think
how I would react do to my own stupidity. The people out there saying I am an
idiot for getting a "killer breed then being surprised that it kills" are
right. I never saw that side of him and I couldn't believe, or I did not allow
myself to believe it was possible. I made a mistake. I lost it. But, I don't
believe that because I lost it once that he is now "damaged and dangerous" and
I will not put him down just for the fact that I lost it. I will though highly
consider giving him to a rescue, so that way they may make a clear unbiased
judgement on him. I love him, but I DO NOT want an innocent kid maimed because
I was too stubborn. And if the kid got maimed, IT HAS NOTHING to do with him
being a PITBULL, it has to do with irresponsible ownership due to not knowing
and not lack of attention or love...
Petyr J. Smithe
>perhaps it would be better for the dog and for the health of your family if
>you were to contact breed rescue and consider placing the dog rather than
>trying to work through your problems.
Why would a rescue group want an unneutered male pitbull who growls at
people and has already KILLED another dog (and a defenceless puppy at
that)?
Oops, I forgot. They're all misunderstood little sweetcakes who've
never hurt a fly. Their reputation is all the fault of "media
hysteria". Let's adopt it out to a family full of little kids and
pets! Aww, poor misunderstood little pitbull!
Wanda Hubnut
mvta...@aol.com (MV Tanning) wrote:
I am very very sorry to hear about what happened to your pup. However, in
all fairness, it is not Chewy that is at fault. I am afraid that you must
take responsibility for what happened.
I have owned and rescued pitbulls for over 15 years, so I know something
about them.
Rule #1.
Never EVER trust a pitbull not to fight another dog. At 2 years old, your
Chewy is at the point where his dog aggressive tendencies are beginning to
be very strong. The fact that Scout was a young female pup is irrelevant.
So, you should never leave pitbulls alone with one another unsupervised
regardless of their age or their previous behavior.
Furthermore, a person should NEVER leave a grown dog of ANY breed alone
with a puppy of ANY breed. Too many risks for overly rough play,
dominance issues, territory, toy, food, water, etc, issues.
You increased the risk by leaving a food bowl that was accessible to both
dogs. That only increased the likelihood of a fight.
If the pup was stiff and cold than she had been dead for a while, which
means that the dogs had been left alone TOO LONG.
And then Chewy came up to me like
> nothing was wrong, his tail wagging, while I was sobbing about my girl. I went
> apeshit. I put her down, I punch him in the face while screaming at him, I
> kicked him in the ribs hard, I kicked his back end as hard as I could twice, I
> kept punching him. I think I was trying to kill him. He just let me hit him
In Chewy's world, he did not do anything wrong. He did what ALL dogs do
when their food is challenged and his natural behavior is exacerbated by
the fact that he is a pitbull and that he had a puppy with him who was no
match for his aggression.
I understand that you were upset. I understand how you felt. BUT, in my
own personal opinion, you do not have the temperament to own a dog.
Punching and kicking a dog repeatedly is not acceptable for ANY reason.
Shame on you.
Why would he KILL a puppy. I know if it were another dog, since he is an APBT
> that he would kill it, but why a female puppy? Does that signify that he
is not
> a tempermentally sound dog?
See above. And, no it does not mean that is temperamentally unsound at
all. Though you may be making him so because of YOUR attitude.
Is it really because he is an APBT or does he have
> a screw loose. She was only 14 weeks old.. If I left the food bowl (empty food
> bowl) out to other APBT owners, or dog owners for that matter, would your dog
> have killed her?
Probably. Even an empty food bowl can be a catalyst for territory or
dominance. And, it could happen regardless of what the breed of the dog.
>
> Does he realize he killed Scout. He doesn't act like he did anything wrong. He
> wants to play fetch, he doesn't act like he misses her....
Dogs have only one timeframe. NOW. He forgot about it probably about 5-10
minutes after he did it. All he knows is that you are pissed at him and
he has no idea why.
>
> Since he killed a puppy, and he is not friendly with people, does that mean he
> can't be trusted when my fiance and I decide to have children? I know people
> and animal aggression are two totally seperate issues, but this was a
puppy. He
> has never shown aggression towards me at all, even when I lost it last night
> and beat him.
I think you should give him another home, or put him down. I think that
he could probably be worked with and become a very good dog, but you dont
have the temperament for it and you have already abused him once. Also,
he now has a negative history with you and it goes both ways. He did
something you think was "wrong" and you beat him.
>
> Lastly, should I put the dog down? I love him, I really do, but I don't
want an
> animal that I have to always worry about killing things all the time. I don't
> want to think that he will bite some kid someday (He will chase them with his
> hair standing up if they run, at least he would when he was a puppy. I haven't
> seen what he will do now). I am so unsure what to do. I feel like if I put him
> down, I am evil. But if it is the right thing to do, I will do it. I
won't like
> it, but I will.
There are other alternatives to putting him down. You could try to find
him another home. But, yes, you should not own him. And, he needs to be
neutered. Now.
Once again, I am sorry for your loss. But, this is too familiar a story.
People take a breed upon themselves and do nothing to learn about how to
take care of them.
Again, this is not Chewy's fault.
Susan.
Wanda Hubnut
J. Smithe) wrote:
> mvta...@aol.com (MV Tanning) wrote:
>
> >I don't know where to start. I already had a 2 year old APBT (male and
> >unneutered -mistake) named Chewy. A couple of weeks back we got a
> > 11 week old female APBT. Last night I came home and noticed that he
was the only one at the screen door
> >waiting for me. I knew something was wrong. I opened up the door and
popped my
> >head outside and she was lying there, next to an empty food bowl, dead.
>
> >Why would he KILL a puppy. I know if it were another dog, since he is an APBT
> >that he would kill it, but why a female puppy?
>
> What did you expect? Pit bulls were bred to hurt and kill other dogs.
WRONG
> You admit this yourself what you say "I know if it were another dog,
> since he is an APBT that he would kill it". Why did you buy dogs are
> genetically programmed to kill other dogs if you didn't want a
> dog-killer?
WRONG
Do you think other dogs have no right to live, only yours?
> It just disgusts me that people get these things, then act so shocked
> when they start killing.
WRONG
>
> And if you think a human baby would be safe around this pit bull (or
> any other pit bulls), you don't deserve to be a parent. Picture your
> toddler reaching for his food bowl someday...
WRONG.
Same old, same old, huh Peter?
S.
MV Tanning
>agility shows last year
>The man had to be forcibly removed from the show, all the
>while screaming obscenities and threatening to "git" us all.
>
I assure you, I am not like that. You are obviously a pitbull hater, so you can
stay out of the conversation. You can say I was wrong, fine, you can say I was
an asshole, or you can explain to me what happened, why it happened, and let me
know the things I should have done before bringing in another dog. You can tell
me I needed to control my temper. That is all critism that I did ask for and
even if negative, I dont get offended. But you obviously just hate the breed,
so please go away....
Wanda Hubnut
J. Smithe) wrote:
> mvta...@aol.com (MV Tanning) wrote:
> >Look you fucking dipshit. I did not get this dog to hurt other people's
dog. I
> >got it for a pet. AND I TRIED to raise him good. I payed lots of attention to
> >him, always took him to the vet, trained him. You STUPID FUCK, I used to take
> >him with me 8 or 9 hours out of the day when I used to do real estate.
I NEVER
> >ONCE let him fight another dog, I Never let him act aggressive towards
another
> >dog, And I never implied it was ok for him to kill another dog. I Just
thought
> >it was irrespoonsible to not know about the history of the dog before I
got it
> >and I KNOW in its history, IT IS ANIMAL Aggressive. I just do not know
if that
> >applies to puppies, and I want to know if he has a screw loose or it is
normal
> >and I was the one irresponsible.
>
> And I repeat: What did you expect? Pit bulls were bred to hurt and
> kill other dogs. You knew this, but proceeded to go out and buy a
> pitbull anyway. Then you got another dog. And your pit bull killed
> it. Duh.
WRONG WRONG WRONG WRONG WRONG WRONG WRONG WRONG WRONG WQRONG WRONG WRONG WRONG.
PETEY BOY, you been saying the same old thing for years here. This from
someone who has never owned a pitbull and just spews venom untruthfully
and carelessly.
Careful, Petey, some of us pitbull dvocates are far more dangerous than
our dogs.
Aspenskyy
>
Are you saying that APBT's were not bred to fight? Better read the history
again.
Aspenskyy
>PETEY BOY, you been saying the same old thing for years here. This from
>someone who h
Yet she never gave any information to the contrary that pit bulls are not a
fighting breed. Thats ok though. The way things are going this breed will be
completely illegal within 10 years. As long as the horror stories keep coming
nobody is going to accept these dogs for the "sweet lovable dogs" they say they
are.
Tricia9999
the same home killing or doing severe damage to another - none of which have
been ABPT's, by the way.
There is a huge gulf in knowledge of dog behaviour, and many assume that the
dogs will work it out.
Your description of his fear of people is worrisome. Dogs that are afraid will
usually do more damage when they feel threatened than a dog that is seemingly
dominant aggressive. In their mind, they are fighting for their lives, so they
will do anything to save themselves. Doesn't sound reliable around kids.
You are obviously very upset and sorry. You might want to give him and yourself
a little more time before you discard him. Right now you don't much like him,
because you want him to react to the puppy's death as a non-sociopathic human
would. If you do decide to keep him, you must watch him every minute or you
may end up with some huge lawyer bills.
Try to disregard the cold and ignorant responses you have gotten. The internet
can turn people into cold, uncivilized, unthinking morons.
Sorry you have had to go through this. Good luck.
Twzl, Sligo and Roy Happy Together
Why do I think this is one big massive troll??
>I don't know where to start. I already had a 2 year old APBT (male and
>unneutered -mistake) named Chewy. Chewy is basically a good dog except he does
A male pitbull named Chewy...ok...
>to pet him, he lowers his stance, growls, and even whines like he is afraid.
>The only way he will let other people pet him is if he goes up to them first. I
Most pitbulls, especially when owned since puppyhood, LIKE people. They
don't cringe or act afraid of them. Geeze, walk though a UKC show and see
them wagging their tails at everyone (no, not at dogs, not usually,
although I have a picture somewhere of a male puppy playing with Sligo).
>A couple of weeks back we got a 11 week old female APBT. We introduced them and
>after he displayed his dominance by acting like he was mounting her, they
Note age, ok?
>Last night I came home and noticed that he was the only one at the screen door
>waiting for me. I knew something was wrong. I opened up the door and popped my
So, how OLD was this puppy who was left confined only by a screen door?
WIth another dog? And NO mention of a human watching them? I just don't
believe anyone could be so clueless.
>a little blood on her fur but no sign of a fight. Then I look closely at her
>head and I saw them. Little tiny puncture holes, near her eye, on top of her
>head, on the back of her head. I lost it. I knew in my heart what had happened.
All the dog fights I have known of that ended in death were FAR more
profound than this one. Try crushed skull next time.
>a screw loose. She was only 14 weeks old.. If I left the food bowl (empty food
>bowl) out to other APBT owners, or dog owners for that matter, would your dog
>have killed her?
OK, so this guy claims that he got this puppy three weeks earlier. It had
parvo, yet it seems to have already gotten better and come home and was
fine? Fine enough to be left alone with only an adult dog, held back only
by a screen door? I just do not believe the details here.
Ann, Twzl, Sligo and Roy
--
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
" But I forget you are from New York, right. Not an area of Menses candidates."
Carole Ernst, talking about me...
MV Tanning
Look, I got the puppy when she was 11 weeks. She immediately got parvo(she was
throwing up, not eating, and really tired. Plus her stomach was making all
kinds of strange noises. ) and we took her to the vet, who did a stool test, a
parvo test, then took her for three days only. He put her on an IV drip, I
called the next day and he said she was doing better. He also gave her a parvo
serium shot and put her on 250mg keflex. He also gave me some white pills to
give her. She was only gone three days, and total price was $350.00 around.
Now, he also said that it could have been something that upset her intestines
that comes from rain water(like GSG or something along those lines). But he
said it will show up as parvo, so to be safe, I chose to treat it like it was
parvo.
>Most pitbulls, especially when owned since puppyhood, LIKE people. They
>don't cringe or act afraid of them. Geeze, walk though a UKC show and see
>them wagging their tails at everyone (no, not at dogs, not usually,
NO kidding, that is why I was wondering if there is something wrong with him.
With animals, He has NO FEAR whatsoever, just wants to get at them, but with
people, especially big men, he acts SCARED. That is how I take it, no tail
wagging, nothing. Even with my friend we introduced him to (a female) he acted
really wierd because she kept going after him. He finally approached her when
we told her to quit going after him, but his whole body was rigid, his tail
was held high, and he had a little fur standing up on his back, but then, he
started to wag his tail real wildly and got super hyper. I took that as him
being "untrustworthy around people and excited"
The screen door was a sliding glass door, they were in the backyard. They do
BOTH get left alone at hours at a time. But, either me or my fiance would go
home halfway through the day because we had to give her her Parvo medication.
We would then feed her, play a bit with her, then put her back in the backyard.
We had no reason to believe he was going to do anything. We unfortunately work
12-13 hours a day (we own our own business, 1st year) , but both of us WOULD
take breaks and go home to play with both of them, then after I got home from
work, I would play ball with Chewy for a while, then walk both of them at the
same time. They both slept in the house unless they were too hyper, then I
would seperate one of them, usually chewy to go outside. But the last night I
put Scout outside because I crated her and she kept crying all night.
>All the dog fights I have known of that ended in death were FAR more
>profound than this one. Try crushed skull next time.
You can dig her corpse up out of my backyard and show me how her skull is
crushed. It was not IN THE LEAST bit crushed. The puncture wounds were tiny,
and no blood from them at all. I actually had to stretch her skin to see them
open up. And her skull was not in the least crushed, you want to know how I
know that I didn't mention earlier? Because when I picked her stiff body up to
put in my lap, she flopped over and her skull hit the concrete hard, real hard
that a sickening thud came from it, (but I did not feel like recalling that).
Also, although there was no blood from any of her wounds, there was blood
coming from out of her mouth that had collected because when I picked her up,
her head after it banged on the ground, I flipped her over and it made small
pools underneath her. As a matter of fact, when I put her in the bag I was
using to transport her, the bag was a white trash bag, and it had alot of blood
in it coming from the inside of her mouth.
You would prefer me to be a troll, and believe me, SO DO I.
MV Tanning
>male dog, refuses to neuter him, and then, as soon as it's sexually
>mature, buys a intact young female of the exact same breed and shows
>no intentions of keeping them separated? Hmm, doesn't take a rocket
I had no intention of breeding them, I was going to get her spayed next month.
Why didn't I neuter him? I have no good excuse except I should have.
MST3KGUY
that i won't allow my 185 pound newf near a pit bull.
Elizabeth B. Naime
> Look at your attitude. Now try to follow: unpredictable breed + owner with
> shitty attitude= bad experience for both. Try a cat next time.
I KNOW this is a dog newsgroup, but what do you people have against
cats?!? Frequently I read a post that someone shouldn't have a dog
because they won't spend time with it and/or aren't responsible or "have
a shitty attitude" -- and the advice is that they should get cats? Why
do cats deserve bad owners?
(No comment on the original poster one way or the other)
--
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Elizabeth B. Naime * Email may be forwarded and/or posted
els...@kuhub.cc.ukans.edu *
CUR 70 / FUR 212 * * Standard Disclaimers Apply*
------------------------------------------------------------------------
LiLtkdGrL
>because they won't spend time with it and/or aren't responsible or "have
>a shitty attitude" -- and the advice is that they should get cats? Why
>do cats deserve bad owners?
>
I agree, Elizabeth! I have two cats and my Corgi, and I believe all three
deserve equal amounts of attention and love..which they all get. =) My Corgi
and my youngest cat are just a little more solicitous than my older, grouchy
cat. =)
Take care
DogStar716
>
>WRONG
>
What do you mean "Wrong"... Pitbulls were bred to fight other dogs. And if
there is no one around to call them off, they will hurt or kill the other dog.
Granted, Petyr seems to be quite the Pitbull hater, but the above statement is
not wrong.
Kristi M. Paslay
composing in my head as I read all of the posts. I think that you are a
caring owner who made a mistake. You obviously shouldn't have left them
alone together, but given your description of the dogs' prior relationship,
I can understand why you didn't think it would be a problem.
No one has mentioned the obvious here: this puppy was only 14 weeks
old. She was small. If Chewy was that upset about her approaching the food
bowl, he may have jumped her just to settle a dominance issue, and
inadvertently killed her. I have seen a Pit Bull killed by another Pit Bull
(mine), and that dead dog had a hole the size of a quarter between its eyes.
They are very strong and very capable of major damage. You said the puppy
hardly had any visible injuries; if Chewy had wanted to rip her throat out,
he was perfectly able. We'll never know if he really set out to kill her,
but I suspect maybe not. That is NOT to say that he *would not* kill
another dog again- you have learned the hard way that even though he seemed
reliable with her, the pitfighting instincts are always there. This is a
lesson that most Pit Bull owners have to learn on their own, myself
included. You can do the research, but until you see it for yourself, you
will not realize the lengths you must go to to prevent accidents such as
this one. I don't even trust mere crates anymore. More like steel doors.
I belong to a Pit list, and most people on there have also had incidents of
unexpected dog-aggression with their well-socialized Pits. The good news is
that it's only unexpected *once*. Then you get it.
About Chewy's other problem though- his human aggression ( fear or
otherwise) is a matter of grave concern. This is not at ALL the proper
temperament for an APBT, as I'm sure you know. From your description of
your activities, socialization and training with him, I think that you have
done the best you could do. There really may be something wrong with this
dog. He seems to be mentally unsound. I too suggest that you find a
competent animal behaviorist/trainer and get an evaluation. There may be
something you can do to help him overcome his fear, if that's what it is; a
few years back we took our dog to a confidence building class and it did
wonders for her. She was just a little shy and wary of people carrying
things (long story), no growling, but since we taught her to have confidence
she has been the happiest and most outgoing dog.
OTOH, Chewy may be beyond help. In which case... I'm sorry, but there
is no room in this world for a human-aggressive Pit. There are so many
wonderful Pits out there with the proper people-loving temperament who need
homes. If you decide to put Chewy down, take your time and find a well-bred
one, either through a good breeder or a rescue. You will be a better Pit
Bull owner for this experience; I'm sorry it had to come this way. But now
you will be cognizant of their abilities and their inclinations, and you
will be more vigilant.
Anyway, find that behaviorist before you make any decisions; trust me, I
know you despise what he did, and him at the moment, but wait before you
decide to put him down. You will gain some perspective with time. After
you have worked with the professional, you will be better equipped to make
the choice.
Christy <chr...@nospamix.netcom.com> wrote in message
news:79coql$5...@dfw-ixnews10.ix.netcom.com...
>>unneutered -mistake) named Chewy. Chewy is basically a good dog except he
>does
>
>
Wanda Hubnut
taken in intact males. Before I adopt ANY dog out it is spayed or
neutered, but I have found homes for many good dogs, whose only mistake
was being owned by someone that was not a good dog owner.
S.
In article <36bc0d87...@news.nr.infi.net>, pe...@movingon.com (Petyr
Wanda Hubnut
history than most.
Here is where you are incorrect. The term "game" and "gameness" does not
mean that the APBT is intended to KILL anything. What happens in doggy
land is that dogs fight for dominance, territory, food, mates, etc. Some
dogs do so more than others and all intact males are prone to fight with
other intact males, regardless of breed.
Gamebred APBT's were, historically, bred to fight in the ring with another
dog. However, if you had read the old "rules" of this you would know that
the object is not to kill. The object is to establish dominance through
strength, stamina and endurance. Yes, occasionally a dog was killed.
BUT, dogs often just quit, jumped the wall, or didnt come back from a
re-start (scratch). The dog wins who lasts longest but that does not mean
that the other dog is killed, at all.
In the history, vets were often in attendance to tend to any dog that was
injured.
Now, you are right that the gangbangers, skinheads, and other knuckle
draggers now breed "pitbulls" that are downright vicious. Usually, these
dogs are not even the APBT but some mongrelized version that may include
Rottweiler, Mastiff, Dobie and all manner of genetic and temperament
nightmares. These are not the APBT. They bear no resemblance to this
noble breed. I have APBT's that are 40-50 pounds and I have skinheads
tell me that they are not pitbulls because they are "too small", despite
the fact that the breed standard is 35-60 pounds. There are 90 pound
"pitbulls" around that bear no resemblance whatsoever to the APBT.
In addition to its fighting heritage, the APBT was also used as a nanny
for infants and children, and today the breed excels in weightpulling,
conformation, SAR, agility, French ring, Schutzhund, carting, pet therapy,
obedience and make excellent family pets. Yes, they can be other dog
aggressive, but of an owner does his/her homework, there is no need for
this trait to be dominant.
I just lost my 14 yr. 11 month old APBT female. She never met a baby,
puppy or kitty that she didnt love and never ever so much as thought about
being aggressive to anything -- much less another dog.
We should punish the DEED, not the breed.
In article <19990204165116...@ng-cr1.aol.com>,
aspe...@aol.comaspen (Aspenskyy) wrote:
> >> What did you expect? Pit bulls were bred to hurt and kill other dogs.
> >
> >WRONG
>
Wanda Hubnut
it, read the papers. And, you are correct. They are gamebred, not fight
bred. There is a difference, wingnut.
S.
In article <19990204165641...@ng-cr1.aol.com>,
Wanda Hubnut
traits and to quash its traits. Just look at the chihuahuas whose skulls
dont close and the increasing incidence of deafness in dalmations and
dyplasia in GSD's and other large dog breeds.
Yes, some people have a breeding program where they breed a game dog to
another game dog in the hopes of getting a game pup in a litter. Not all
the dogs in a litter from two game bred dogs will also be game. In fact,
there will be a small percentage of those pups that will be game.
And, people who own and prefer to call their dogs APBT very very often
breed against the game trait, or, better still, spay and neuter their
APBTs.
After 15 years of rescue of this breed, yes, I have seen some bad dogs. I
even owned a dog with poor temperament that was a rescued GSD/AmStaff that
I put down. However, to make a blanket statement that these dogs were
bred to hurt and kill other dogs is just a grossly overstated
generalization.
However, breed to breed, the APBT is far more predictable and far better
temperament than many other breeds. I wont call them out because I
deplore breed bashing of any breed.
I have a volume of statistics from journals of emergency medicine and
pediatrics as well as the HSUS and the US Postal Service that lists the
APBT far down the list of those dogs that are considered dangerous.
I have compiled this data to refute the hysterical rantings of pitbull
naysayers. But, funny thing, these people dont want the facts; they just
want to keep on bashing.
S.
In article <19990204182705...@ng111.aol.com>,
dogst...@aol.com (DogStar716) wrote:
> >> What did you expect? Pit bulls were bred to hurt and kill other dogs.
> >
> >WRONG
> >
>
Wanda Hubnut
but we would only adopt it out after it had been neutered, been to
obedience and had spent a long time with a foster owner that could work
with the dog. And, if we decided that the dog presented a danger of any
kind or was a liability risk, we would not hesitate to put it down.
There are 8 million dogs and cats euthanized in this country annually --
and that number only accounts for "legal" euthanization. Most of these
dogs and cats would make wonderful pets but there are not enough homes and
boneheads keep breeding and buying them.
A marginal dog like this would lose out over a dog that was wildly adoptable.
S.
In article <79dbef$el5$1...@hiram.io.com>, tit...@io.com (Cindy Tittle Moore)
wrote:
> mvta...@aol.com (MV Tanning) writes:
>
> >I would be more than happy to put him in a breed rescue.
>
> If you go this route, talk honestly and long with the rescue organization.
> Pit bull rescue may work differently than other rescues, but we would
> never take a dog that had killed another dog and was afraid of people.
> That's a walking liability time bomb. Now I relize I work with Labradors
> which are expected to be completely unaggressive, so we may be unwilling
> to work with some situations that different breed rescues would work
> with as a matter of course. That's why I urge you to be candid and
> discuss this thoroughly with the organization should you take this step.
>
> --Cindy
> --
> *** tit...@io.com *** http://www.k9web.com/tittle.html ***
> WAGGERY U-CD Terrell's Chocolate Deduction CGC CDX--Hershe LABRADORS
> ------- Delby's Wood Nymph at Waggery JH WC CGC--Angel ---------
> *** Southern California Lab Rescue: http://www.geocities.com/~sclrr/ ***
Wanda Hubnut
J. Smithe) wrote:
> dogst...@aol.com (DogStar716) wrote:
> >>> What did you expect? Pit bulls were bred to hurt and kill other dogs.
> >>
> >>WRONG
>
> >What do you mean "Wrong"... Pitbulls were bred to fight other dogs. And if
> >there is no one around to call them off, they will hurt or kill the
other dog.
> >Granted, Petyr seems to be quite the Pitbull hater, but the above
statement is
> >not wrong.
>
> My personal belief is that many people instinctivly dislike pitbulls
> because they're just not natural.
What's not natural, troll breath?
In the wild, animals do not
> automaticlly maim and kill members of their own species.
An pitbulls do not "automatically" do so either.
They
> especially will not automatically destroy a member of the young of
> their species if left alone with it.
Actually, you are incorrect. Many many species will kill their own young
if they are not in the same pack. In fact, even in the same pack,
"childless" females and young males will often wantonly kill pups if the
pups are left unattended.
If they did, their species would
> quickly become extinct.
Actually, wrong again. scientists attribute this savaging of litters of
young to maintaining the strength of the breed and population control. If
all those animals bred and born in the wild lived, we would be overrun.
Example: the current deer overpopulation in many areas. Another example:
the proliferation of feral domestic cats in large cities.
Yet many people in this thread have said that
> it's the man's fault for "leaving the adult dog alone with the puppy".
> Pu-lease. The real blame lies with the creators of this sick breed of
> dog.
>
> Pitbulls have been genetically engineered by a certain class of
> lowlife humans to become sociopathic killing machines of their own
> kind. Time after time, even the pitbull fanciers who claim their dogs
> are sweetcakes will slip up and brag about how thier dog could rip
> apart some other dog. Even the man whose pit killed a his puppy admits
> that "I know if it were another dog, since he is an APBT that he would
> kill it".
The APBT was historically bred in England and later in the United States
by largely middle to upper class gentlemen and dogfighting, like boar
hunting and foxhunting was considered a gentlemen's sport. Only with the
advent of the gangbangers and skindheads have we seen a breed of dog that
is NOT the APBT but more often a mix breed that is poorly socialized,
abused and underfed and which bears no resemblance to the APBT.
>
> It is NOT natural for a species to kill its own kind. If you put a
> hundred pitbulls together in a cage, they would rip each other apart
> until they were all dead or dying. Compare this to normal breeds, who
> can co-exist peacefully, males, females, puppies, all together in a
> cooperative pack. THAT is normal canine behavior. Pit bulls are the
> psychopaths of the species.
That is not true. Humans kill their own kind all the time, more often for
arbitrary political, economic or ethnic reasons in war and for the same
reason that other mammals do in society, over sex and power.
If you had ever actually worked with dogs, you would know that there is no
breed that does not experience infanticide from other dogs, and often,
from the mother too. Mothers often have to be separated from their pups
because of their poor mothering and attempts to kill their pups.
S.
sandoz
couple small puncture wounds could kill the pup. Is there anything in your
backyard she could have eaten that could have poisoned her? Or maybe even
something in your house? It might have been something slow acting. Check
around to see if anything looks chewed on (ok, I know.... dogs chew... but
anything dangerous that has been chewed on) . Do you have poisonous plants,
antifreeze, chocolate?
The only other thing I could think is that maybe Chewy picked her up by the
head and shook her and broke her neck or back. This could result in very
little outward damage but massive internal damage.
I know it sounds really grousome, but maybe you should dig up Scouts body
and take her to a Vet for an autopsy. Or at least an x-ray to see if her
neck/back had been broken. It might be worth the mental peace of mind for
you to rule out or confirm that Chewy was indeed (or was not) the killer. It
might also be the deciding factor as to whether or not he should be put
down. If he didn't kill the pup that's a big mark in his favor.
Although, a dog that can not be trusted around people will be nothing but a
continuous liability. I think perhaps instead of looking at this from a
"what will be good for the people" perspective, look at it from a "what will
be good for the dog" perspective. What are the future prospects for Chewy's
quality of life? Does he live in constant fear of people? Will he have to
lead a horribly restricted life to protect him from hurting someone? Will he
be happy living that kind of life? Is he trainable or are his instincts so
strong that he will never be able to be a truly good pet? It's unfair to
expect him or force him to be something he is not. As his humane owner, you
need to determine whether he is fit to continue living. It's a hard call. As
many people have mentioned though... there are numerous wonderful dogs out
there. There is no reason to suffer through living with a dog that will not
contribute to anyone's life, including it's own.
You know your dog. Get an outside opinion from someone more trained in
animal psychology if you need to. I have a feeling though that in your heart
you probably know what should be done. I would never have an animal in my
house that I could not trust. Especially around children. And I would NEVER
have Chewy around my son based on your description of him.
I'm really sorry for your loss. Don't be to harsh on yourself. Dogs like
these should never have been bred in the first place!
Liz
Cris Waller wrote in message <36ba5705....@nntp.ix.netcom.com>...
>On 4 Feb 1999 22:51:24 GMT, mvta...@aol.com (MV Tanning) wrote:
>
>>
>>You can dig her corpse up out of my backyard and show me how her skull is
>>crushed. It was not IN THE LEAST bit crushed. The puncture wounds were
tiny,
>>and no blood from them at all. I actually had to stretch her skin to see
them
>>open up. And her skull was not in the least crushed, you want to know how
I
>>know that I didn't mention earlier? Because when I picked her stiff body
up to
>>put in my lap, she flopped over and her skull hit the concrete hard, real
hard
>>that a sickening thud came from it, (but I did not feel like recalling
that).
>>Also, although there was no blood from any of her wounds, there was blood
>>coming from out of her mouth that had collected because when I picked her
up,
>>her head after it banged on the ground, I flipped her over and it made
small
>>pools underneath her. As a matter of fact, when I put her in the bag I was
>>using to transport her, the bag was a white trash bag, and it had alot of
blood
>>in it coming from the inside of her mouth.
>
>This description does make me wonder (as another poster did) if he did
>indeed kill her. Wounds made after death do not bleed- wounds made
>before death do.Could she have had an episode of internal bleeding
>(from the parvo or from another source)and died from that, and then
>Chewy attempted to rouse her or play with her?
>
>Cris Waller
>Cr...@ix.netcom.com
>
>Visit the Predator Defense Institute website!
>http://www.envirolink.org/orgs/pdi/index.htm
>
>Flat-coated retriever art gallery
>http://members.tripod.com/antique_fcr/index.html
sandoz
Pit, mistake two was getting a second one and mistake three was putting them
together. But, I have to commend you for admitting to what you have done
wrong. I think yours is the first act of humility I've ever seen on a news
group. It would lead me to believe that in reality you are probably a lot
better dog person that a lot of the people on these groups profess to be.
You made a horrible mistake. Learn from it and go on. Get rid of that dog. I
posted another note... but the more of this I read the more I think you
should just get rid of the animal. Get a breed of dog that wasn't bred to be
a killer. You will just be so much happier all the way around! Again, I'm
very sorry for your loss!
Liz
MV Tanning wrote in message <19990204211916...@ng21.aol.com>...
>Yes. I posted that, because I knew they would fight one day, but I thought
she
>would be old enough to defend herself. And now I feel shitty for so
brazenly
>saying "Let them fight" because All my other dogs when introduced
eventually
>fought, BUT they just did alot of pushing, one got bit once, BUT THAT WAS
IT,
>there was no death involved. I already told that ng post to not listen to
me
>anymore because I was an idiot. I was responding to someone who said they
had
>to fight to see who was dominant.
sandoz
who he personally expressed several concerns about. There are many, many
poorly bred dogs out there of many breeds. Pits being one breed that you
just DON'T want to mess with if it's a bad dog. This person made a mistake.
It was a mistake that never should have happened because that dog never
should have been bred. Anyone who can admit to a mistake is someone who can
learn. It's something that not many people around here seem to understand.
Liz
JFRCHRDSN wrote in message <19990204232636...@ng134.aol.com>...
>Liz writes [tons of crap, including...]
>
>:Get a breed of dog that wasn't bred to be
>:a killer. You will just be so much happier
>:all the way around! Again, I'm very sorry
>:for your loss!
>
>Assuming that all of this isn't just a put
>on, Tanning was remarkably incompetent.
>Yet you can't offer him total absolution
>fast enough, and even say he is probably
>a better dog person than most. But you
>*do* stick in a dig against a breed that
>deserves better owners than Tanning and
>better planet-mates than you. You just
>may be the one of the very, very few "dog
>people" that Tanning *might* be better than.
>
>JohnR
sandoz
Bulls were bred to be killers. First of each other, and then of people. Not
all of them were intended to be this way, but many were. Why do you think
the breed got such a bad rep. I've been browsing around here for several
months and this is the first time I've ever seen anyone admit to doing
something really stupid, take a lot of heat for it, and really try to figure
out a way to improve. So many people around here profess to be such
wonderful dog people. If the way they treat other people is anything like
the way they treat their dogs then very few actually are! I have nothing
against Pit Bulls, mostly just against a lot of the idiots that own them,
breed them, and then pretend they're something they are not.
Liz
JFRCHRDSN wrote in message <19990204235540...@ng134.aol.com>...
>Liz writes:
>
>:Excuse me? Did I post a dig against a breed?
>
>Yes. When you wrote:
>
><Get a breed of dog that wasn't bred to be
><a killer.
>
>Notice that you DID NOT say: "Get a dog that wasn't
>bred to be a killer." Instead, you DID say: "Get a
>*BREED* of dog that wasn't bred to be a killer"
>[emphasis added to make things clear even to Liz].
>
>[snip]
>:Anyone who can admit to a mistake is someone who can
>:learn. It's something that not many people around here
>:seem to understand.
>
>We've all made mistakes, and we've all learned from
>them. Many of us have posted about some of our mistakes.
>I recently (a month or so ago) posted about a handling
>error I made that resulted in my first serious shelter
>dog bite. (No, it wasn't a Pit Bull.) Tanning may very well
>learn from his string of mistakes and come away a better
>dog owner. I hope so. But he in fact does NOT appear to
>recognize just how many mistakes he made. So the court
>is out on Tanning, and it remains positively nutty to
>suggest that Tanning is "a better dog person than most
>of the people on the newsgroup."
>
>JohnR
>
sandoz
about that statement. Honest people will admit that there has been a lot of
poor misdirected breeding regarding Pits. Tanning doesn't sound like the
sort of person who needs or wants <or can handle> that sort of dog. I'm not
sure why he got a Pit in the first place. He obviously got one of poor
quality <not that the dog is bad, the people who bred it were bad. The dog
is just a result of that> that has some severe behavior problems. I would
never own a dog like that. I'm not sure why anyone would want to. I'm sure
not all Pits have that temperament, but the lovable, even tempered ones seem
to be the exception to the rule. I hope for the breeds sake that they are
improving, and that more and more of them will be better tempered.Of course,
I don't think they gained such a bad rep. , or such a high place on bite
stats by themselves. You just can't deny and animals nature. To do so
doesn't do the breed, or the people who own them any good.
Liz
JFRCHRDSN wrote in message <19990205003554...@ng134.aol.com>...
>Liz writes:
>
>:Excuse me? Did I post a dig against a breed?
>
>Yes. When you wrote:
>
><Get a breed of dog that wasn't bred to be
>a killer>.
>
>You didn't say "get a DOG that wasn't bred to be
>a killer", but "get a BREED of dog ...."
>
>JohnR
Petyr J. Smithe
>>> What did you expect? Pit bulls were bred to hurt and kill other dogs.
>>
>>WRONG
>What do you mean "Wrong"... Pitbulls were bred to fight other dogs. And if
>there is no one around to call them off, they will hurt or kill the other dog.
>Granted, Petyr seems to be quite the Pitbull hater, but the above statement is
>not wrong.
My personal belief is that many people instinctivly dislike pitbulls
because they're just not natural. In the wild, animals do not
automaticlly maim and kill members of their own species. They
especially will not automatically destroy a member of the young of
their species if left alone with it. If they did, their species would
quickly become extinct. Yet many people in this thread have said that
it's the man's fault for "leaving the adult dog alone with the puppy".
Pu-lease. The real blame lies with the creators of this sick breed of
dog.
Pitbulls have been genetically engineered by a certain class of
lowlife humans to become sociopathic killing machines of their own
kind. Time after time, even the pitbull fanciers who claim their dogs
are sweetcakes will slip up and brag about how thier dog could rip
apart some other dog. Even the man whose pit killed a his puppy admits
that "I know if it were another dog, since he is an APBT that he would
kill it".
It is NOT natural for a species to kill its own kind. If you put a
DogStar716
>because they're just not natural.
What breed is natural? All dogs are manmade. Therefore it is up to us to
protect them from what we have made them. . Doesn't mean they are evil or
should be killed. You want natural, go run with a wolfpack.
>It is NOT natural for a species to kill its own kind.
Mankind does it all the time...
Petyr J. Smithe
>Look you fucking dipshit. I did not get this dog to hurt other people's dog. I
>got it for a pet.
Bud didn't you post the following on rec.pets.dogs.behavior just the
DAY BEFORE your pit killed the puppy???? The article is at:
http://x3.dejanews.com/getdoc.xp?AN=440461247&CONTEXT=918179434.46137438&hitnum=0
if anyone wants to verify this.
Your wrote
"I agree. Let them fight. I am going to experience a problem that I
don't look foward to but I know it is inevitable. I have a very
dominant male 2 year old american pitbull terrier, and I just got a 3
month old female american staffordshire terrier that has dominant
traits. I KNOW they are going to go at it one day. No matter what any
of you say, they are going to. I will not start seperating them,
because I don't see the point in having them if I have to
always keep them apart. I don't feed them together, I take their toys
away when I am not there. But THEY WILL FIGHT one day and hopefully it
will not be too bad. I just hope they don't kill one another."
MV Tanning
MV Tanning
Cris Waller
JFRCHRDSN
:Why would he KILL a puppy. I know if it were another dog,
:since he is an APBT that he would kill it, but why a female
:puppy? Does that signify that he is not a tempermentally
:sound dog?
It's perfectly obvious that this dog has been screwy from
the start. Of the dozens of Pit Bulls I've gotten to know
at the shelter, only five have been in one way or another
unfriendly to people. Four have been put down and one,
a bite case that came in the other day, will be.
But I'm also more than a little troubled by your assumption
that your dog would kill any other dog. If you had GOOD
reason to believe this, why did you leave him alone with
the puppy?
JohnR
Aspenskyy
are much easier to have as pets than dogs. I have seen some cats whose
intelligence exceeds that of their owners. Plus, my house cat actually
outranks my dogs as she kicks dog ass when they get out of line.
JFRCHRDSN
:As for the question about a baby, you obviously have
:never been a parent. Checking out the food dish is the
:*least* intrusive thing that a 1 year old is ever going
:to do to your dog.
GREAT point. A dog that is weird around people and
insanely jealous of its food bowl does NOT belong
in a house with a child. (Arguably, it doesn't belong
on the planet, period. If someone who lives by him/herself
far enough away from everyone else wants it, fine. Otherwise,
this dog is too grave a risk for even a highly competent owner
to keep safely around others, and even minimal competence
appears to have been lacking in the owners of this dog,
from what has been conveyed so far.)
JohnR
JFRCHRDSN
:Thank god his killer stud-muffin took out it's would-be breeding
:partner before she could start popping out the cash crop.
It's not easy to come onto this thread and look
worse than the original poster, but you managed
to do it, Petyr. Yes, I'm glad that Tanning won't
be breeding any Pit Bulls, at least for a while
(see below). But gloating over the death of a
pup puts you barely if at all above the level of
morons like "Grim Reaper".
Aside to Tanning: Don't breed Pit Bulls, ever.
Especially not with your weird people-spooked
dog. But don't even do it with the best dog your
money can buy. I'm neck deep in unwanted Pit
Bulls at the shelter and will be no doubt for
years. There is NO reason for any newbie to
join the already loathesome breeding frenzy.
JohnR
JFRCHRDSN
:Look at your attitude. Now try to follow: unpredictable
:breed + owner with shitty attitude= bad experience for
:both. Try a cat next time.
The breed is not "unpredictable". Try to stick with the
facts of the case. And what do you have against cats?
JohnR
JFRCHRDSN
<kill members of their own species.
In the wild, animals don't swim through chilly
waters to fetch a dead duck, just to give the
stupid thing up to some other animal.
Domestic animals INVARIABLY have some "wild"
traits exaggerated, and some suppressed or
removed. In any case, if all the Pit Bulls in the
world were removed and replaced with Wolf
Hybrids, you'd be the first to complain about
all the half-wild beasts in our midst.
Also, there are plenty of circumstances in
which various species of wild animals will
predictably tend to kill their own, eg the
mass infanticide that often occurs in social,
matriarchal species when the old resident
male is displace by a new one. This has nothing
to do with the Pit Bull fighting instinct, which
is an accentuation of the all but pan-mammalian
fighting instinct, but one of the most ignorant
of the many, many common misconceptions about
nature is that intraspecific killing is rare. It isn't.
Not by a longshot.
JohnR
JFRCHRDSN
:If you go this route, talk honestly and long with the rescue organization.
:Pit bull rescue may work differently than other rescues, but we would
:never take a dog that had killed another dog and was afraid of people.
Different Pit Bull rescues may well have varying policies on
dog aggressive dogs, but I both doubt and hope that there are
ANY Pit Bull rescues taking in and placing dogs that behave as
weirdly around people as Tanning's appears to.
JohnR
JFRCHRDSN
Interesting detective work. I myself was beginning to wonder
whether Tanning and Petyr were either the same person or
had otherwise set this up. I'm still not sure what's going on.
And this "Wanda Hubnut" who has appeared out of the blue
is another strange aspect of this thread. She, or "she", at first
sounded like a really bad imitation of Bryan Hinckle, but then
that ended quite abruptly. It is, to say the least, odd for someone
who has not, to my knowledge, ever posted on Pit Bull issues at
all before now to jump in making comments that clearly demonstrate
knowledge of a history of "Petey" trolls. Has anyone seen the headers?
JohnR
JFRCHRDSN
Petyr J. Smithe
>In addition to its fighting heritage, the APBT was also used as a nanny
>for infants and children, and today the breed excels in weightpulling,
>conformation
Tell me, how does a breed "excel in conformation"? Either a dog of a
specific breed conforms to the breed standard, or it doesn't. Some
breeds excel at certain *tasks*. Border Collies excel in sheepherding
and canine frisbee. GSDs excel in Schutzhund. Beagles excel in
hunting. Labs excel in retrieving. But to say that a breed,
especially pit bulls which aren't even allowed in the AKC show ring,
"excels" in conformation shows an ignorance of what conformation is,
and is also typical of the low-brow bragging tendencies of typical
pitbull owners.
Petyr J. Smithe
>
>>It is NOT natural for a species to kill its own kind.
>
>Mankind does it all the time...
Yes, and the individuals who do so are despised and feared by normal
humans. Your point?
JFRCHRDSN
:but I both doubt and hope that there are
:ANY Pit Bull rescues taking in...
Nice sentence, huh? I won't bother explaining
what I meant to say, as that ought to be obvious,
and couldn't possibly explain why I tried to
conjoin all but unconjoinable predicates (the
inherent negative verb 'doubt' with the normal,
"positive" verb 'hope').
JohnR
MV Tanning
I asked the question to get an answer, and I was honest about it. From
everything I have read, you have not contributed to my decision making
whatsoever. You had one good post, but then I saw who it was from, and I
decided to ignore it as it was coming from you.
I am not asking ANYONE to feel sorry for me. I fell sorry for my dogs.
One, I have been with for two years, and I have tried to socialize him,but,
somewhere along the lines I wasn't able to. I made alot of mistakes along the
way. I did read and talk to people, but obviously I didn't have prior
experience so I did the best I could. I should have immediately gotten him
neutured, but I didn't. I don't know if that contributes to his "wariness" of
people. Then, I didn't ever let him fight other dogs, and I never knew a dog
had to be watched around a puppy. Someone falsely told me that dogs never
attack puppies just because it is in their instinct. I took their word for it.
I never came across any posting when I read about puppies on the internet that
said I had to seperate the dogs until 6 months. I wish I did have your
background on animals and dog behavior, but as I am not employed as a animal
control or humane officer and around these cases every single day, day in and
day out like you are, there are somethings, many thing, I do not know. I also
have never bred any animals, nor do I want to, so I have not studied their
behavior around puppies. You know, I might possibly have gotten my dogs killed.
But I tried and I failed and I learned. But not due to a lack of love. I
learned through ignorance which isn't excuseable, but regretful. Now, after I
have made a very painful mistake, the only option that seems relatively safe
for society on the whole is even more painful, and that is putting my beloved
dog down. He is not people friendly, and I do acknowledge this. I don't know if
I can honestly find it in me to do such a thing, but if it gets done, I WILL BE
WITH MY DOG. And I will go with my dog, not so I can "see what my failure has
achieved" like one of you so elequently put it, but because I love my dog and I
am not leaving him in strange hands, alone to die. I am not sorry for owning
this dog or this breed. He has been the most loyal creature to me and my
girlfriend and we KNOW he would never do anything to hurt us. So, please spare
me the negativity that you are giving me because I really don't need it, nor
appreciate it. I am sorry you are faced with bad pet owners who abandon or
neglect their animals and you are angry with everyone who owns a pet who has
made a mistake. I learned and my pets will pay for it, but ultimately, so will
I and my girlfriend. Thank you everyone for your responses, I needed them.
Michael
Petyr J. Smithe
>In the wild, animals do not
>> automatically maim and kill members of their own species.
>
>An pitbulls do not "automatically" do so either.
Oh really? Then how do you explain *this* quote from one of your
fellow pitbull lovers here?
fmj...@yahoo.com (FatBoy) wrote:
>APBTs who've never even seen another dog will
>instinctively go after one as soon as they see it.
And how 'bout *this" one?:
mvta...@aol.com (MV Tanning) wrote:
>"I know if it were another dog, since he is an
>APBT that he would kill it".
JFRCHRDSN
:Excuse me? Did I post a dig against a breed?
Yes. When you wrote:
<Get a breed of dog that wasn't bred to be
<a killer.
Notice that you DID NOT say: "Get a dog that wasn't
MV Tanning
This was real, and you only made a painful situation worse. But Thank You Liz,
I did learn. I learned the hard way, but I did learn.
Nola
Actually, it's very common in nature for mothers to kill their young,
also for males of one "pack" to kill the babies of another.
I think you should re-think that above statement.
As for humans... we've "evolved", right? LOL!
--
Therapy is expensive, poppin' bubble wrap is cheap! You choose.
@}--Nola J
JFRCHRDSN
:I asked the question to get an answer, and I was honest
:about it. From everything I have read, you have not
:contributed to my decision making whatsoever. You had
:one good post, but then I saw who it was from, and I
:decided to ignore it as it was coming from you.
You can ignore me all you want, Tanning, but I replied
to your honest question with an honest answer. If you
don't like the answer, then maybe your question wasn't
so damn honest after all. Meanwhile, I spend as many
hours as I can afford to (more, actually) trying to
train stray and give-up Pit Bulls whose nitwitted
prior owners generally didn't train at all. It is a
testament to the breed that my job is actually a
lot easier in most cases than it may sound. But
occasional I end up working with a dog who is
basically good natured but who has accumulated
so damn many difficult quirks in its behavior that
I know that the dreaded "unadoptable" verdict is
hanging over it like the blade of a guillotine. Trying
to scramble like mad to undo the damage done by
incompetent owners before that blade falls really,
really sucks, especially when you fail anyway for
all your efforts. And now, lucky me, I have the owner
of one dead Pit Bull and one puppy-killing, human
aggressive Pit Bull whining at me. There are people
out here constantly picking up after owners like you.
When one of us ask pointed questions or make pointed
comments, you can go off and sulk, but DON'T WHINE
AT US. You can try to learn something from us, or chose
to ignore us and continue what is in effect a game of Pit
Bull roulette. And your confessional tone doesn't mean
anything if you immediately get defensive and dismissive
once someone starts asking follow up questions or offering
useful but not particularly "comfortable" advice.
JohnR
JFRCHRDSN
:Oh really? Then how do you explain *this* quote from one of your
:fellow pitbull lovers here?
fmj...@yahoo.com (FatBoy) wrote:
>APBTs who've never even seen another dog will
>instinctively go after one as soon as they see it.
Ah yes, Fatboy, who recently posted to the rescue
newsgroup about an accidental breeding between
his human aggressive semi-AmStaff and his
extremely human-aggressive Pit Bull. I don't
consider Fatboy a "fellow" anything.
And he's wrong about APBTs and dog aggression.
It's nowhere near so over-the-top as he suggests
for most APBTs, as I wrote when he posted that
bit. I guess my post didn't make your archives.
JohnR
JFRCHRDSN
:Excuse me? Did I post a dig against a breed?
Yes. When you wrote:
<Get a breed of dog that wasn't bred to be
a killer>.
You didn't say "get a DOG that wasn't bred to be
a killer", but "get a BREED of dog ...."
JohnR
JFRCHRDSN
:Perhaps you should read the post and set your obvious
:prejudices aside. Pit Bulls were bred to be killers. First
:of each other, and then of people.
This is from the very same dope who just a few
posts ago was claiming (demonstrably falsely)
not to have taken a dig against the breed. Liz,
prejudice is based on ignorance, and when you
and I talk Pit Bulls, there is only one ignorant
party to the discussion, and it isn't me. So go
hug Tanning and his puppy-killing, human-
aggressive Pit Bull and tell him what a good
dog person he is. He obviously loves the
validation, however obviously unearned.
Meanwhile, I never thought I'd see the day
when Pit Bull bashers and the worst sort
of Pit Bull owners would be all kissy, kissy,
while each continued their respective wars
against people who actually try to do something
positive for the breed.
JohnR
JFRCHRDSN
:I'm sure not all Pits have that temperament, but
:the lovable, even tempered ones seem to be the
:exception to the rule.
No, that is simply untrue. The Pits I've gotten
to know at the shelter (we are talking dozens
of dogs) have generally never had a single good
owner, and often spend months in a place that
stresses the hell out of many dogs. Yet these
Pits have overwhelmingly held themselves
together and stayed genuine little love bugs,
so much so that the few cases of Pits deteriorating
in the shelter have really kicked me in the gut.
One of my two all time favorites, Onyx the Serene,
actually *improved* during a long incarceration
(face it, that's what it was). When she came in,
she was an excellent dog who would mostly
keep to herself, and just come up for the quickie
nuzzle or two during, say, 20 minutes in the yard.
As such, she was the dog I'd take out when I needed
a break from the teeming masses of perfectly loving
and lovable, but also zany and zippy Pit Bulls who
are my usual training "projects". But over time, Onyx
decided she really enjoyed these nuzzle sessions,
and, while she continued to be unassuming and even
serene in her demeanor and behavior, became quite
the little love bug when invited over for a little
"interfacing". She was in "the Big House" for five
months. With most dogs, you just pray they can
hold themselves together if they're in that long.
Onyx thrived and grew, and finally found herself
a real home last December, when a prospective
adopter *finally* took a real close look at her
and said, "wow, what a fantastic dog!" Yep, she's
definitely that.
Go spend several hundred hours working with
Pit Bulls at a shelter (no better place to meet
lots of them who have overwhelmingly NOT had
the benefit of good owners) and THEN tell me
what kinds you found to be exceptional and
what kinds you found to the rule.
JohnR
sandoz
Bashing Tanning, bashing his dog, trying to bash me. I guess I have a
different perspective. One, I am a mother and would never have an animal
that I couldn't trust in my house. Two, I've spent to much time at Vet
clinics and animal shelters helping people put their animals back together
after having been attacked by vicious dogs. I'm sorry to say, the mass
majority of those attacks were caused by Pit Bulls. In various studies Pit
Bulls are also ranked as the number one attacker of children (with Rotts,
who I dearly, dearly love being number two and GSD being number three) under
ten I believe. If I have a negative opinion of this breed it is just due to
what I have seen of the animal, and honestly, of the people like you who
defend them. It doesn't shed much of a positive light on them!
Liz
JFRCHRDSN wrote in message <19990205004520...@ng134.aol.com>...
sandoz
I've seen wonderful and horrible dogs of ALL breeds, well maybe with the
exception of a few that just don't seem to be mean no matter what. I agree
that there are good Pits out there. Good in the sense that they are well
mannered for their breed. That breed just has certain tendencies that make
them unsuitable for a lot of people. Unfortunately, the attitude that they
are just as loveable and cuddly as the next dog to come along is what leads
to a lot of people having problems with Pits, Rotts, Chows, and other dogs
that have a tendency to exhibit aggressive behavior. You can not expect
something of a breed that the breed is not capable of. To do so is to deny
the true nature of the animal and that does them such a disservice. If more
people were aware of the true nature of a Pit Bull, or ANY dog, there
wouldn't be so many problems. Or so many dogs in shelters, or sitting alone
in backyards, or alone anywhere!
Liz
JFRCHRDSN wrote in message <19990205014003...@ng134.aol.com>...
>Liz writes:
>
>:I'm sure not all Pits have that temperament, but
>:the lovable, even tempered ones seem to be the
Christy
sandoz wrote in message ...
That breed just has certain tendencies that make
>them unsuitable for a lot of people. Unfortunately, the attitude that they
>are just as loveable and cuddly as the next dog to come along is what leads
>to a lot of people having problems with Pits, Rotts, Chows, and other dogs
>that have a tendency to exhibit aggressive behavior.
Not to interrupt the little war you guys have, but the attitude that pits
are lovable and cuddly is NOT why people have problems with them. The
attitude that they are tough macho dogs leads to the problems - and those
problems are a result of the OWNERS and not the dogs. Pits are not the dog
for everyone - neither is a friggin chihuahua! There are many breeds of dogs
which, for one reason or another, are best suited for experienced owners;
they just aren't as popular as pit bulls.
A pit bull once chewed hunks off of our screen door. He was lost or
abandoned, and he wanted to come in our house. Why? Because when he was
outside, we stopped and petted him, gave him hugs and scratched his ears,
but then we went inside.
This was some 20+ years ago, and my brother and I were just children. We
didn't know to beware of the evil awful pit bull (though we did get yelled
at about the door...)
Back then there was no taboo, no horrible reputation, no stories of children
torn apart. I simply refuse to believe that the breed is responsible for its
reputation, but you believe what you must.
I've never owned a pit, but I've always had a fond memory of that big
rednosed pit. And I was too young to have to pay for the screen door.
--
Christy
(remove "nospam" to reply by e-mail)
Andrew
male pit-bull that is so sociable towards people AND other dogs it's
amazing. However, I wouldn't leave him alone with another dog because he is
very strong and accidents do happen when you're dealing with such a strong
dog. As someone else mentioned, if chewy had been in a rage and really gone
out to kill your other dog, it probably would have been messier than what
you described. Sounds to me like he's got a bit pissed at her checking out
her bowl and tried to move her out of the way, inadvertently killing her.
This is just my theory OK. Ignore all the posts that say that APBT are
useless killers, they make great pets, usually. Your chewy sounds as though
he has some kind of mental problem. The fact that he behaves strangely
around people is a bit disturbing to say the least. I would get him de-sexed
straight away and see if that changes his ways, if not then maybe you should
think very hard about weather he should be around. At the moment he sounds
as though he could be a serious danger to humans.
If you or anyone else want's to, you can Email me at the address below.
Andrew
--
Reply address in header has been altered to combat SPAM
Please reply to asf...@ihug.co.nz if you don't feel
like stuffing around with the one in the header.
:)
MV Tanning wrote in message
<19990204115727...@ng-cd1.aol.com>...
>I don't know where to start. I already had a 2 year old APBT (male and
>unneutered -mistake) named Chewy. Chewy is basically a good dog except he
does
>not really like people. He has never bit anyone, but it makes it obvious he
>does not like them. If we (me and my girlfriend) are around and someone
goes up
>to pet him, he lowers his stance, growls, and even whines like he is
afraid.
>The only way he will let other people pet him is if he goes up to them
first. I
>tried to socialize him as a puppy, i would walk him and ask people to pet
him,
>but he always pulled away and growled. Never the less, he has never bitten
>anyone and has NEVER shown any aggression to me or my girlfriend.
>
>A couple of weeks back we got a 11 week old female APBT. We introduced them
and
>after he displayed his dominance by acting like he was mounting her, they
>became the very best of friends. They would play and run side by side all
day
>long. He would always try to entice her to play tug o war with the blanket
they
>sleep on, he would sleep with his head on her or let her curl her body
right
>next to his. He used to let her "mockingly" win while play fighting, he
would
>lie on his back in a submissive posture while she nipped at his face, and
>sometimes she would bite to hard and he would just bear it. I walked them
both
>every night, and they were great walking together. When she got parvo and I
>took her to the vet, he sat at home depressed, didn't act happy at all.
When
>she was better and we brought her home he and she were the happiest dogs in
the
>world! They basically looked like they loved each other, and he acted like
he
>was her protector...
>
>Last night I came home and noticed that he was the only one at the screen
door
>waiting for me. I knew something was wrong. I opened up the door and popped
my
>head outside and she was lying there, next to an empty food bowl, dead. I
>couldn't believe it. (The food bowl was left outside because it was empty.
I
>had started using another food bowl to feed them instead) I sat down next
to
>her and her body was cold, and her limbs stiff. There wasnt any blood and I
>thought at first maybe he didn't kill her. I turned her over to the other
side
>and noticed her dew claw had been ripped off. When I turned her over there
was
>a little blood on her fur but no sign of a fight. Then I look closely at
her
>head and I saw them. Little tiny puncture holes, near her eye, on top of
her
>head, on the back of her head. I lost it. I knew in my heart what had
happened.
>She had probably been sniffing my damn food bowl I left outside, and Chewy
came
>up to her. He then grabbed her by the head, and she was trying to get away,
so
>much so that she lost her dewclaw in his chin (He has a cut on his chin
that is
>swollen and probably infected) and while she was struggling to get away, he
>somehow killed her. And I assume it is because of that food bowl I left
>outside. I was crying, petting her little head and body, wishing I was god
so
>bad. I never realized how powerless I was until last night. I wanted to rub
her
>and make her come back to life, I was telling my baby that I was sorry and
>holding her stiff body against my chest. And then Chewy came up to me like
>nothing was wrong, his tail wagging, while I was sobbing about my girl. I
went
>apeshit. I put her down, I punch him in the face while screaming at him, I
>kicked him in the ribs hard, I kicked his back end as hard as I could
twice, I
>kept punching him. I think I was trying to kill him. He just let me hit him
the
>whole time, he didnt try to really run away, and he just sat there with his
>eyes open looking at me. I stopped, realized I didn't know what the hell I
was
>doing anymore, went inside and cried. After I was done crying, I brought
Chewy
>in, gave him a bath (he had blood on the front of his coat, and smelled
like he
>had killed something), then I gave him antibiotics for his inflamed cut on
his
>chin and made sure he could sit properly, and I checked his ribs to see if
he
>hurt. I know I should not have hit him like that, I basically abused him
and I
>shouldn't have. I never have done anything like that before, I was against
>people beating there dogs like that. I took Scout (my sweet little baby
puppy)
>to my old house, buried her, I even brought Chewy along in the truck to
spend
>time with him (Guilty over beating him, I was trying to justify it was in
his
>nature, he is a dog, so it was wrong of me to get mad at him), then I went
home
>cried some more, and went to bed.
>
>I woke up this morning depressed like crazy. I went out, gave Chewy his
food
>and more antibiotics, but I didn't want to be near him. Inside, even if it
is
>my fault and he is a dog, I don't want anything to do with him. I still
gave
>him the medicine, pet him, told him he was a good boy, and now I am here. I
>have a couple of questions now because I need to make a desicion on whether
to
>put him down or not.
>
>Why would he KILL a puppy. I know if it were another dog, since he is an
APBT
>that he would kill it, but why a female puppy? Does that signify that he is
not
>a tempermentally sound dog? Is it really because he is an APBT or does he
have
>a screw loose. She was only 14 weeks old.. If I left the food bowl (empty
food
>bowl) out to other APBT owners, or dog owners for that matter, would your
dog
>have killed her?
>
>Does he realize he killed Scout. He doesn't act like he did anything wrong.
He
>wants to play fetch, he doesn't act like he misses her....
>
>Since he killed a puppy, and he is not friendly with people, does that mean
he
>can't be trusted when my fiance and I decide to have children? I know
people
>and animal aggression are two totally seperate issues, but this was a
puppy. He
>has never shown aggression towards me at all, even when I lost it last
night
>and beat him.
>
>Lastly, should I put the dog down? I love him, I really do, but I don't
want an
>animal that I have to always worry about killing things all the time. I
don't
>want to think that he will bite some kid someday (He will chase them with
his
>hair standing up if they run, at least he would when he was a puppy. I
haven't
>seen what he will do now). I am so unsure what to do. I feel like if I put
him
>down, I am evil. But if it is the right thing to do, I will do it. I won't
like
>it, but I will.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
JFRCHRDSN
:I've actually spent many hours working in both shelters
:and Vet clinics. I've seen wonderful and horrible dogs of
:ALL breeds, well maybe with the exception of a few that
:just don't seem to be mean no matter what.
Such as? (And *don't* say "Golden Retrievers" or you'll
*prove* that your the sort who takes prevailing conventional
wisdom, stretches it beyond all plausibility and then tries
to pass it off as the voice of experience. Easily 95% of
Goldens I've met have been good to great dogs, but no breed
is immune to having a few problem children and I've met
a few problem Goldens myself over the years. The most
obnoxious dog the next street over is a Golden.)
:I agree that there are good Pits out there. Good in the sense
:that they are well mannered for their breed.
No, there are lots of Pits out there who are great people dogs
by any standard. And yes, about the best you can reasonably
hope for in Pit Bulls as it relates to getting along with
other dogs is that they be "well mannered for their breed".
But thousands of people have kept tens of thousands of
Pit Bulls out of that sort of trouble over the decades.
:That breed just has certain tendencies that make
:them unsuitable for a lot of people.
Correct. But given that this is the one thing about Pit
Bulls that you seem to view as THE thing about Pit
Bulls, it is exceedingly odd that YOU are the only
person on the thread patting Tanning on the back.
:Unfortunately, the attitude that they are just as loveable
:and cuddly as the next dog to come along is what leads
:to a lot of people having problems with Pits, Rotts, Chows,
:and other dogs that have a tendency to exhibit aggressive
:behavior.
Pits are actually *more* prone to having bouts of the
cuddles than most breeds of dogs. Rotties tend not to
quite as shamelessly silly around people as Pit Bulls,
as a rule at least. Chows are about as uncuddly a breed
as you will find. As for dog aggressive tendencies, Pits
definitely can show that. Responsible owners and advocates
have NEVER been coy about this. As for Rotties and Chows,
an individual dog may or may not be as eager as an individual
Pit Bull to start in with another dog, but they tend not to
be the "finishers" that Pits can be. I don't know anyone
involved with either of those breeds who doesn't acknowledge
the reality of the matter with these breeds.
BTW, how many Pit Bulls, Rotties and Chows have you
actually handled, all by yourself, at any shelter or vet
office? In just the past ten months, I've worked anywhere
from a little to a LOTS AND LOTS with at least three dozen
of the almost four dozen Pit Bulls who have come through
our doors. I've also handled all of the more than two
dozen Pit Mixes who have been with us - again, many
of them several times. And then there's been maybe
a dozen or so Rotties, and probably at least that many
Rottie Mixes. As for Chows, no more than half a dozen
purebreds, but probably at least twice as many Mixes.
And then there are the odd Akitas and Akita Mixes,
several GSDs and many, many Mixes, a few Dobes and
a few more Dobie Mixes and several Huskies. (The
only dog to really bite me was a Husky, but that was
largely because of a stupid, impetuous handling error
I committed in getting him into his kennel.) I have not
generally spent a LOT of time with most of the dogs
of these non-Pit breeds and mixes, but ferrying them
back and forth from kennel to yard is someting I do
all all the time. If any of these "bad boy" breeds were
even one tenth as bad as their critics think they are,
that *really* should have shown up in my experience in
handling them by now, no? We've had bad individual dogs
of all of the above mentioned breeds and mixes (except
for Dobies, which we haven't had many of, but those we've
had have been uniformly superb), but no systematic problem
with any of them, and certainly not with the Pit Bulls,
who have always had among their ranks several dogs that
have been among the shelter's paid and volunteer staff's
favorites and who generally send a "breed ambassador" or
two to PetsMart every weekend, thanks to the efforts of
yet another great staff of volunteers who do most of their
work for the dogs over there.
JohnR
sandoz
the breed of dog you have. To assume that a dog, any dog for that matter, is
nothing but loveable and cuddly is just asking for an accident to occur. I
agree that the macho type of people out there getting dogs and making them
'tough' are a huge part of the problem. Still, they are just capitalizing on
the animals nature. You probably couldn't turn a Lab into a cold blooded
attack dog even if you tried. It's just not their nature. A more aggressive
breed of dog on the other hand, would need lots of training, socialization,
and constant humane supervision to make sure that they don't fall prey to
fitting into the 'vicious killer dog' stereo type. You can't judge a single
dog by it's breed type alone, nor can you judge a breed by a single dog!
Liz
Christy wrote in message <79eb66$s...@dfw-ixnews3.ix.netcom.com>...
>
>sandoz wrote in message ...
>That breed just has certain tendencies that make
>>them unsuitable for a lot of people. Unfortunately, the attitude that they
>>are just as loveable and cuddly as the next dog to come along is what
leads
>>to a lot of people having problems with Pits, Rotts, Chows, and other dogs
>>that have a tendency to exhibit aggressive behavior.
>
JFRCHRDSN
:I've never owned a pit, but I've always had a fond memory of that big
:rednosed pit. And I was too young to have to pay for the screen door.
Nice story, Christy.
I do have to quibble with one thing you said. *Some* problems
with Pit Bulls have indeed been caused by naivite over their
potential for serious dog aggression. But yes, over all, it's
the reputation that their CRITICS have given them as the
monster, fire-breathing hounds from hell that has inspired
the WORST owners to get them, thereby causing the worst
incidents involving them.
JohnR
JFRCHRDSN
:Hmm, the only person seeming to be doing any bashing
:around here is you. Bashing Tanning, bashing his dog,
:trying to bash me.
I'm more than happy to bash back at breed bashers
like you, and to get in the face of people like Tanning
who seem to do everything possible to get their Pit Bulls
into the sort of trouble that keeps the entire breed in
trouble with the people in this world, and there are
far too many of them, insist on blaming the breed for
what individual dogs do, and/or insist on feeling sorry
for the owners who ultimately ARE responsible for
these incidents. I originally didn't think anyone on
the thread could come off worse than Tanning, but
good old Petyr was right there in about half a dozen
posts talking like such a jerk that Tanning almost
almost got lost in the shuffle. But even Petyr had the
sense to place SOME of the blame on the owner, whereas
within the first couple of sentences of your entree into
the fray, you had already branded Pit Bulls as "bred to
kill" and suggested that Tanning was a "better dog person
than most" who would probably do fine with a "non-killer"
breed. And now your trying to get away with justifying
your contempt for the breed by citing me and my attitude
towards people like you. Don't you see how that simply
*proves* that you have a tendency to evaluate dogs based
on things that the dogs have no control over? I don't care
at all that you don't like *me*. But what does that have
to do with some dog you meet in the shelter you claim to
go to? Does the fact that my second favorite breed is the
Standard Schnauzer going to send you off on an anti-Schnauzer
crusade? If nothing else, please demonstrate that you aren't
*that* dumb.
JohnR
j...@cpafs.com
aspe...@aol.comaspen (Aspenskyy) wrote:
> >(Wanda Hubnut) in all her wisdom wrote:
>
> >PETEY BOY, you been saying the same old thing for years here. This from
> >someone who h
>
> Yet she never gave any information to the contrary that pit bulls are not a
> fighting breed. Thats ok though. The way things are going this breed will be
> completely illegal within 10 years. As long as the horror stories keep coming
> nobody is going to accept these dogs for the "sweet lovable dogs" they say
they
> are.
>
As a past owner of a pit bull, I felt I had to add my 2 cents worth. I owned
a female pit bull named Mitzi, before all the horror stories and controversy
began. She was the BEST dog I ever had, and I've had dogs all my life, own
two now, in fact. She was raised by us starting at age 6 weeks, and
unfortunately, died of a virus that destroyed all her internal organs, at age
5. Putting her to sleep when her kidneys shut down after fighting to save
her for a week at the animal hospital was a heartbreaking.
Mitzi was a beautiful brown and orange brindle, about 45 pounds. She had a
teriffic temperament. She was highly intelligent, loyal, loving,
affectionate and GENTLE. I had two little boys, one of whom came home from
the hospital as a newborn when Mitzi was about a year old. I never left my
children alone with any of the dogs I have owned, more for the dog's
protection than the kids, but Mitzi immediately decided she would be the
baby's protector. Anyone who held him had a pitbull sitting right next to
them, watching carefully. She would place herself in front of his playpen
not move until I took him out.
When my husband was home, she would sleep upstairs with both of us. But when
he was away on a business trip, Mitzi would not come upstairs until daybreak,
and I could hear her patrolling downstairs during the night. This was
without any training. If I went into the basement to do laundry, she would
follow me and place her nose in the back of my knee and stand there until I
went upstairs again. If my husband and I argued, she would stand up and
place her paws on his chest and give a low growl, letting him know that she
didn't want anyone yelling at her "mommy." I felt very safe with her around,
but she never exhibited any agression towards people, and respected me as her
alpha. The one time I got angry with her, she hid (or tried to) under my bed
and then came out and begged for my forgiveness. She was extremely easy to
train, and behaved like a perfect lady all 5 years I owned her. Her only
fault was destroying her toys when we left her at home. Those teeth were a
bit much for any toy on the market at that time.
She liked anyone who came in the house, but was a marvelous watch dog. When
someone new was in the house, she would watch them closely, but was also
friendly and would approach for a pat.
Other animals were a different story. She was not trained to fight, but
nevertheless, the one thing that would set her off was another dog anywhere
in her sight. We knew that this was in her blood, because she was a pitbull.
But we were responsible owners, I had my yard fenced in and she was attached
to a truck chain that was attached to a pipe pounded about 4 feet into the
ground. She never hurt any animals, but then again, she never had the chance.
She was extremely strong. And I do understand why people wouldn't want to
take on the responsibility, though all dogs should controlled and monitored
closely, even if they aren't a pitbull.
Losing her was a terrible blow for all of us. I started to adopt animals
after that, in her name, and have continued to do that to this day.
I guess this turned out to be a tribute to my Mitzi. However, despite my good
experiences with her, I wouldn't own another pitbull. There has been too much
controversy and too many horror stories because of irresponsible breeders,
handlers and owners of these dogs. I couldn't stand to have to explain to
everyone that I'm not crazy for owning one, and I wouldn't trust an adult
pitbull that I didn't raise myself, especially living near urban areas where
many of these dogs are trained for nefarious purposes by criminals.
I also believe these dogs will be outlawed in the not too distant future, and
I don't know how I feel about that, except that it's a shame for all those
dogs out there that are still alive at the time that it happens. They can be
wonderful pets, but I fear the breed is doomed.
Sorry this was so long, I have a lot of mixed emotions about this subject, and
it all came bubbling out.
Joy
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
j...@cpafs.com
mvta...@aol.com (MV Tanning) wrote:
> >I'll bet the guys's just like the redneck who came to one of our
> >agility shows last year
>
> >The man had to be forcibly removed from the show, all the
> >while screaming obscenities and threatening to "git" us all.
> >
>
> I assure you, I am not like that. You are obviously a pitbull hater, so you
can
> stay out of the conversation. You can say I was wrong, fine, you can say I was
> an asshole, or you can explain to me what happened, why it happened, and let
me
> know the things I should have done before bringing in another dog. You can
tell
> me I needed to control my temper. That is all critism that I did ask for and
> even if negative, I dont get offended. But you obviously just hate the breed,
> so please go away....
I don't hate the breed, I loved my Mitzi very much, she was an APBT. But you
have to know that it's very unwise to bring another dog into your family when
you own a pitbull, regardless of the sex or age. A pitbull has to be your
only animal.
Aspenskyy
>facts of the case. And what do you have against cats?
I have nothing against cats. I just believe they are easier to care for than
dogs. Especially a dog like a APBT. BTW, if the breed is not unpredictable
then why are they constantly on the news for attacks? I have yet to see a
person mauled by a Foxhound or Schnauzer.
sandoz
problems tend to err more on the non-vicious side of the tracks than
others.
You seem to acknowledge the dangerous nature of some breeds, but refuse to
admit that it may make them unsuitable for the masses. I hope the shelters
are more careful in their placement of animals than you seem to be.
Especially considering the mass numbers you seem to work with!
I would not call an animal that will chase down and savagely attack an
infant or child a people dog. I'm not sure if I mentioned it, but I've read
several reports that site Pits as the number one attacker of children under
the age of ten. Not what I would call a people dog. DO you have children? A
Pit <in general> may be a good dog for a very responsible adult. Just as
Chows are generally best with adults. Although, I think a lot of people
would be offend if you said Chows weren't cuddlers! Rotts too! Our Rotts (we
had three) were the biggest, silliest babies around. Of course, we were
careful to select ones from breeders who had both parents (and grandparents)
on the grounds so we could get a very good idea of what the pups temperment
would be like. The only problem Rott we had was one a Step Mother of mine
bought on a whim. He was great with our family, but he was much more
aggressive than any of the other Rotts we had. I was living out of the house
by the time they got him. He was the only dog we've ever had that bit a
child (without negative provocation, we had an Irish Setter that bit after
being abused). One of the neighbor kids was climbing over the fence and Kodi
attacked him. He was just being protective, he was a good dog. But still, it
is the nature of that breed to be protective. Something I consider to high a
liability if you are going to have a household with young kids coming and
going. At least Kodi bit and released. Would a Pit have released? I would
never recommend that the average household own a Rott. I LOVE them. They are
beautiful animals and I love their personalities. I couldn't trust them not
to injure others though, and in my life right now I just have to many
concerns that rule them out.
I can't tell you how many animals I worked with at the clinic and the
shelters. Eventually the clinic I worked at banned Pit Bulls from the
boarding area (which was mainly were I volunteered) because of too many
problems with them being aggressive to both the staff and other dogs (Chows
were on the border line, we never really had problems with Rotts. We had
several Shelties that were fear biters and an American Eskimo <I think
that's what she was> that had to be sedated to get it out of the kennel it
was so vicious!). In the clinic it's self Pit Bulls and Chows were the only
two breeds that were muzzled routinely prior to an exam.There were also many
problems with smaller breeds, most of whom could be handled by the vet and
vet tech though. I have to say a lot of little dogs were muzzled too! The
groomer had a policy that all Chows be muzzled. A few were allowed to be
groomed without one, but only the dogs she knew very well. I think it goes
almost without being said that there were a lot of little dogs brought in
that had to be muzzled as well! Off the top of my head, I can't remember
ever having to muzzle a Golden, or a Lab....
At the animal shelter (not our local Humane society, I volunteered in the
animal control shelter in the next county over because they were in such
dire need of help. They are a kill facility, they can't afford not to be.)
Pits, Chows, Rotts, Dobermans, GSDs (if the exhibited any aggressive
behavior), and any of the mixes were on the top lists of dogs to watch out
for. They just tend to be more aggressive than a lot of other dogs. That
doesn't make them bad animals. It just means that you have to be realistic
with them. I spent many, many hours out in the yard or on walks with dogs at
the clinic and the shelter. It was always our goal to try to work with an
animal before passing any judgement on it. There are now animal control
centers in the Dallas area that automatically destroy Pits, Rotts and Chows.
It seems horribly unfair to the breeds. But you know, I would much rather
than one nice dog get destroyed and be allowed to go to doggy heaven than
ten questionable dogs get adopted out to Billy Bob Bad Ass who wants a macho
dog. It's sad, but there are just some breeds that do not make good pets for
the average person. And some people are just to stupid to realize that an
animal may not be good for them to own. It's been a couple years sine I've
been able to volunteer. Between my little boy and my own animals I just
don't have time right now. My family had Rotts, an Irish Setter, a GDSMix,
and a Doberman as I was growing up. And the dogs were just one amongst many
animals... Cats, horses, chickens, various reptiles, various rodents.
Basically you name it and we've had one we loved at one point and time. I
love animals. I hate seeing people who don't understand and respect them.
Liz
JFRCHRDSN wrote in message <19990205092513...@ng-cr1.aol.com>...
>Liz writes:
>
>:I've actually spent many hours working in both shelters
>:and Vet clinics. I've seen wonderful and horrible dogs of
>:ALL breeds, well maybe with the exception of a few that
>:just don't seem to be mean no matter what.
>
>Such as? (And *don't* say "Golden Retrievers" or you'll
>*prove* that your the sort who takes prevailing conventional
>wisdom, stretches it beyond all plausibility and then tries
>to pass it off as the voice of experience. Easily 95% of
>Goldens I've met have been good to great dogs, but no breed
>is immune to having a few problem children and I've met
>a few problem Goldens myself over the years. The most
>obnoxious dog the next street over is a Golden.)
>
>:I agree that there are good Pits out there. Good in the sense
>:that they are well mannered for their breed.
>
>No, there are lots of Pits out there who are great people dogs
>by any standard. And yes, about the best you can reasonably
>hope for in Pit Bulls as it relates to getting along with
>other dogs is that they be "well mannered for their breed".
>But thousands of people have kept tens of thousands of
>Pit Bulls out of that sort of trouble over the decades.
>
>:That breed just has certain tendencies that make
>:them unsuitable for a lot of people.
>
>Correct. But given that this is the one thing about Pit
>Bulls that you seem to view as THE thing about Pit
>Bulls, it is exceedingly odd that YOU are the only
>person on the thread patting Tanning on the back.
>
>:Unfortunately, the attitude that they are just as loveable
>:and cuddly as the next dog to come along is what leads
>:to a lot of people having problems with Pits, Rotts, Chows,
>:and other dogs that have a tendency to exhibit aggressive
>:behavior.
>
Gail Snyder
Char-Pei, along and tied her up in our campsite. Winnie spotted a 10 week old
puppy at one of the adjacent campsites and was watching it with interest. We all
thought this was pretty normal. I didn't see it happen, but I think they put the
pup down to walk around and Winnie bolted, easily tearing up the ground steak.
Before we knew it she clamped down on the pups head and started shaking it. It was
all over in a matter of seconds and the pup was dead. You can't imagine the horror
of this scene. All my sister could do was apologize, pay for the pup, correct
Winnie and take her home. Winnie is a gentle soul and nobody could understand
this. I believe Winnie was acting solely on instinct and that it had everything to
do with her being a Char-Pei. My sister never considered putting Winnie down,
rather she keeps her out of any such situations. It is a tough choice because the
fact is that something like this would happen again, given the opportunity.
Gail
MV Tanning wrote:
SNIP
Last night I came home and noticed that he was the only one at the screen door
waiting for me. I knew something was wrong. I opened up the door and popped my
head outside and she was lying there, next to an empty food bowl, dead.
SNIP
sandoz
more valid. Not dose it help promote what you are trying to get across. If
you have to try to validate yourself by stooping to this level it really
makes be question the validity of anything you say. Tanning obviously made
an awful mistake. Of course, with a different breed of dog I doubt it would
have happened. I am not overly fond of Pit Bulls. I don't like animals that
have such a high liability that it negates their value as a pet. Now, I
would never go to the point of saying that all Pits are bad dogs. I know
they're not! No breed consists of all bad animals. Unfortunately, Pits have
been bred for some very bad reasons lately. I know their are people out
there who are trying to get the breed back to being a better animal. I
commend them. I think Pits need to be bred to exhibit less aggressive
tendencies. My aggravation arises when people like you start preaching about
how wonderful and easy to be with they are. I would never recommend a Pit to
an inexperienced dog handle, or to someone who just wants one because they
look mean and act ferocious. By saying that they are not you are just
promoting accidents like the one Tanning had. I do pity him. He made a
mistake and I'm sure he's already hurting himself more than any of the harsh
words here could hurt him. Combined with his mistake though is the nature
of a dog that was <in my opinion> a mistake in the first place. From his
posts it's obvious he tried really hard with this dog and spent a huge
amount of time with it. Bar one mistake he sounds like a great dog owner.
Not only that, he is trying to figure out what to do now to be responsible.
I'd much rather support him doing that than continue to berate him. I think
he would do much better with a dog that is less aggressive. Most people
would. There are breeds know to be aggressive and there are those that are
not. That's not bashing, that's just the way it is!
I have nothing against Schnauzers (or any breed). I like the larger version
much better than the little ones, but I also just like big dogs! :)
Personally, I haven't had much interaction with them so I can't comment on
their personalities. We did get a couple of standards in at the groomers,
and they were pretty well behaved. Again, I haven't seen enough to make a
judgement call!
Liz
JFRCHRDSN wrote in message <19990205095206...@ng-cr1.aol.com>...
sandoz
I've never limited my volunteer work to any one breed. I love animals, and
want all of them to get the best possible care. I haven't volunteered or
worked anywhere with dogs <aside from the one we just adopted> in a couple
years. I have a 1 1/2 year old and pets of my own that keep me to busy. I
miss it though and we go to visit and check up on our friends who work at
the shelters often. We were there a couple weeks ago and met a beautiful
Dalmatian pup who's owners had given it up because it was deaf. It's just so
sad that the mass majority of people who get dogs just don't understand the
problems, and the benefits inherent with certain breeds. People are so
biased towards their one breed... or so biased against on certain breed that
they fail to give a complete picture. Uneducated people buy into the hype
and end up with dogs they never should have had <Tanning>. Then when a
mistake is made, people jump all over the owner of the dog. Yep, the owner
is responsible. But so are the people who pushed the hype about the dog, and
the people who bred the dog, and the people who gave the bad advice about
how the dog will or will not behave.
Honesty is best when it comes to animals. You seem to be bashing Goldens a
bit. I can't say I've ever met a really aggressive Golden. I've known a many
that will protect their backyard and their humans, but never a vicious one.
I think that says something very positive for the breed, the people who own
them, and the people who breed them. I wish the same could be said for all
dogs! But since it can't, the best qualities of any breed should be
presented, along with their faults so that people interested in them can
make a good judgment call. I bet you wouldn't have to deal with so many
abandoned Pits if people knew more about their behavior and what to expect
of them. This can be said of any breed though. Some lack of knowledge is
just more dangerous than others!
Liz
sandoz
that placed in certain situations, combined with a certain situation a Pit
will attack. And since they are a good size dog, with very powerful jaws the
attack is usually pretty nasty. Any dog will bite if provoked. Some dogs are
just easier to provoke <and are provoked by more things>. The dogs,and the
unwitting people who get them can only be blamed so much though. I'm sure
many people <poor breeders, not the reputable ones who are trying to better
the breed and who will be honest about their personalities) now present
their Pit puppies to people with the explanation that they would never hurt
anyone. Anyone not including children and other pets. People believe this,
and then horrible accidents occur. The mean nasty Pit has gotten a bad rap
lately. I guess that means that the idiots who used to mass breed them and
present them as ruthless killers will now have to switch tactics and present
them as great family pets. I just hope they switch their breeding pair while
they're at it! Better yet, stop breeding!
Liz
Aspenskyy wrote in message <19990205100026...@ng154.aol.com>...
Petyr J. Smithe
>tendencies. My aggravation arises when people like you start preaching about
>how wonderful and easy to be with they are.
Even worse are the iresponsible idiots who (always in ALL CAPS) shout
that pit bulls are NO DIFFERENT than any other breed.Oh pu-lease. They
were bred to hurt/kill other dogs. That makes them fundamentally
different than breeds bred for useful (and safe to humans and other
dogs) purposes like retrieving, herding, etc.
sandoz
cross my Labs mind to attack another dog, or even a nice person. I've notice
that she is getting protective of her family and her house, but not in a
vicious way. She's a sweetie and it's a result of her breeding, probably in
spite of her handling. We got her from a rescue and she had been through the
wringer with her previous owner. She's still recovering from a wound on her
neck about three inches long and inch and a half wide from were she was
chained in the backyard and had outgrown the chain which was cutting into
her neck. The lady who rescued her said she had to cut the chain off of
her. I just can't imagine! Freja is just sweet beyond dispute! A good foot
warmer too! Apparently her previous owners didn't realize she would get so
big and need so much exercise. Duh!
Liz (with the 30 some odd pound warm fuzzy yellow foot warmer)
Petyr J. Smithe wrote in message <36bc0fb0....@news.nr.infi.net>...
Iantar
>
> Hmm, the only person seeming to be doing any bashing around here is you.
> different perspective. One, I am a mother and would never have an animal
> that I couldn't trust in my house. Two, I've spent to much time at Vet
> clinics and animal shelters helping people put their animals back together
> after having been attacked by vicious dogs. I'm sorry to say, the mass
> majority of those attacks were caused by Pit Bulls.
Liz,
I'm not doubting the time you've put in... but I do wonder how many of
the attackers you've seen and also how adept you, personally, are at
identifying APBTs. If you're taking the word of a third party that "the
mass majority of those attacks were caused by Pit Bulls," (as in the
breed, APBT) then you are standing on extremely shaky ground.
> In various studies Pit
> Bulls are also ranked as the number one attacker of children
You mean the infamous "pit bull" of media fame... not the APBT. This is
the problem that so many APBT people have -- their dogs are targeted as
"pit bulls" when, if you were actually to compare the "pit bulls" that
routinely chew people's heads off and their APBTs, you would probably
find very little similarity across the board. There has been a ton of
misidentification and, unfortunately, a *great* breed is catching hell.
> (with Rotts,
> who I dearly, dearly love being number two and GSD being number three) under
> ten I believe. If I have a negative opinion of this breed it is just due to
> what I have seen of the animal, and honestly, of the people like you who
> defend them. It doesn't shed much of a positive light on them!
I'm going to guess that what you have a negative opinion of is not a
"breed" of dog, but a "type" of dog that you are mistaking for a breed.
Perhaps you don't realize it, but you've developed a mindset against a
monster that doesn't exist in the form you think it does... and it's
truly unfortunate, because as a result you're condemning an awesome
breed of dog.
>
> Liz
sandoz
and not the macho mean type. Then they wouldn't be in such a doomed
situation! It's really sad the things people do to dogs. I enjoyed your
story about your dog. I'm sure you must miss her very much!
Liz
j...@cpafs.com wrote in message <79f3hh$u5i$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>...
sandoz
Sometimes the injured animals were brought in by the owner of the Pit who
just simply identified the animal as a Pit Bull. Other times it was the
neighbors who after repeatedly reporting there neighbors for having Pits
that were out of control brought in their injured animal. Other times
<mostly at the shelter> we just got in dogs who had already attacked someone
and were scheduled to be put down. I don't know what the specific breeding
was (APBT, AmStaff, etc.). They were just identified as Pit Bulls. Some of
them as Pit mixes. I think you're right that there is probably something
akin to a breed within a breed in regards to Pits. Of course I've seen it
debated on these groups as to whether there is more than one breed etc. I
know there are good Pits. Unfortunately for average idiot out there who just
wants a Pit it might not be easy to find them amidst all the bad breeding.
Because of that I am leery of all of them. Leery, not dead set against.
Liz
Iantar wrote in message <36BB10BA...@NOSPAMtitan.vcu.edu>...
Cris Waller
>Cr...@ix.netcom.com (Cris Waller) writes:
>
>>This description does make me wonder (as another poster did) if he did
>>indeed kill her. Wounds made after death do not bleed- wounds made
>>before death do.
>
>That's a common misconception. It all depends on where the wound is. After
>death (after the heart stops beating), the blood will be controlled by GRAVITY.
>If you tip the body one way or another, it will drain out if it can. If not,
>it pools in the bottomost parts, depending on theposition taken in death.
You are correct, but I was thinking of the actual act of bleeding, not
pooled blood, since the injury in question here did not bleed.
Cris Waller
Cr...@ix.netcom.com
Visit the Predator Defense Institute website!
http://www.envirolink.org/orgs/pdi/index.htm
Flat-coated retriever art gallery
http://members.tripod.com/antique_fcr/index.html
MV Tanning
talk to when it comes to dogs. Shit, I'd be angry if I had all these good
natured dogs that had little problems that I had put to sleep to. #1. My dog is
trained. The puppy killing pitbull is very trained. Just not trained to kill
puppies. #2. Don't know why he acts wierd around people, probably because they
approach him wrong. If they don't approach him, he pays no attention to them
whatsoever. And the more I think about it, I honestly am not starting to mind
that he doesn't trust every dumb schmoe that decides to come up and pet him
without a second thought. He hasn't bitten them yet, and yes I say "yet" but he
has warned them by growling at them. If they retract and try not to pet him, he
ignores them. He doesn't hate people, he just doesn't like them. Now I
understand that this is not a normal trait in Pitbulls, but he is backyard
bred, and for all I know, he may not be pure APBT. Now, if he were another
breed of dog and he was a bit warry of people, some of you would say "put him
down" while others would say "You don't just walk up to a damn dog and startle
it and start petting it if you don't know it". I fucked up a little by bringing
the puppy home and leaving it alone. I have thought about it and I am upset the
puppy is dead, but you know what, I didn't know and there is no use for me
feeling all shitty anymore. I dont know if my dog killed my puppy anymore
anyways. He wasn't mutilated at all, he only had tiny puncture holes on his
head that were not bleeding or had not even bled, because either they were made
after she was dead or he licked the blood off. I really don't think he licked
the blood off because her coat is white and it would have shown. She was
bleeding from the inside of her mouth, and it had collected in her mouth.He
might have killed her, he might have done it accidentally. So, quit trying to
make war with everyone and put your job to good use. You have the knowledge
that if you posted in a decent way, you might actually save some of those dogs
that you put down. But when you come off as an asshole, no one is going to
listen to you. I must of had 20 replies that chewed me out about what I did, my
behavior after, etc... And although I could see that they were written politely
or unemotional, I knew there were anger and fire behind those words. But I read
them, I didn't get offended. You know why, because they didn't just come off as
over assholes who are mad at the world, they were just mad at me. Quit being
mad at the world and take your damn job serious like you are supposed to.
Educate people so you won't have to see so many dogs.
DogStar716
>Bulls were bred to be killers. First of each other, and then of people.
Perhaps YOU should read up on the breed... Pit dogs were NEVER bred to be
killers of people. They were not bred to be people aggressive. There are dogs
who are bred specifically to be people aggressive, but Pits are not one of
them.
Dogstar716
"He is your friend, your partner, your defender, your dog. You are
his life, his love, his leader. He will be yours, faithful and true,
to the last beat of his heart. You owe it to him to be worthy of such
devotion"
-- Unknow
sandoz
maim, and attack humans. Obviously they weren't bred by intelligent
responsible people. But they have been bred that way.
Liz
DogStar716 wrote in message
<19990205113625...@ng-fa1.aol.com>...
FatBoy
Don't worry too much about people giving you shit on this NG. I catch hell
all
the time. The fact is that most of these morons have their idea of what a
pit
"actually" is, but they don't have any experience with YOUR dog. I've got a
female pit that is extremely loving and sweet and all that around me and the
2 or 3 other people she knows. From this behavior, I too expected that
she'd
be like this all the time. Nope. She attacked one of my 6 month old pups,
doing pretty severe damage for a puppy to have to deal with. Hey, it caught
me
off guard, and I'll admit it was a beginner's mistake. Furthermore, I've
also had
several close calls with this bitch around people, kids, etc. recently, so
I've
just quit allowing her to be around those she doesn't already know. Better
safe than in court.
Regardless of how much time you spend trying to socialize your dog,
sometimes
it's going to ignore it's training and do what it wants. I've learned the
hard way
not to assume anything. Don't assume they won't fight, bite, escape, etc.
You
gotta keep an eye on 'em constantly.
I know ol' John boy is gonna rant and rave, but I understand what you're
going
through. Just keep doing the best you can, be safe, and ask as many
questions as you can. Just keep trying to learn and you'll get it down.
Again,
don't worry about people swooping in to pass their self-righteous judgement
on
your inexperience. 99% of these fools couldn't do any better. If I can
help you
with anything, just email me. If I can't answer all your questions, I'll
find someone
who can.
JD
*** Posted from RemarQ - http://www.remarq.com - Discussions Start Here (tm) ***
Iantar
>
> Yes, that was the point I was trying to make! I don't think it would ever
> cross my Labs mind to attack another dog, or even a nice person. I've notice
> that she is getting protective of her family and her house, but not in a
> vicious way. She's a sweetie and it's a result of her breeding, probably in
> spite of her handling. We got her from a rescue and she had been through the
> wringer with her previous owner. She's still recovering from a wound on her
> neck about three inches long and inch and a half wide from were she was
> chained in the backyard and had outgrown the chain which was cutting into
> her neck. The lady who rescued her said she had to cut the chain off of
> her. I just can't imagine! Freja is just sweet beyond dispute! A good foot
> warmer too! Apparently her previous owners didn't realize she would get so
> big and need so much exercise. Duh!
FWIW, I encountered a young Lab (of dubious breeding, of course) the
other day that was showing some really scary tendencies. Couldn't have
been more than 4 months old and was snarling at both other dogs and
people. Most people around took it as silly puppy behavior... I
couldn't help but wonder what that dog is going to turn into in a couple
more months. I've also heard about a couple of attacks on children by
both Lab-mixes and Collie-mixes. All of these occurences were alarming
and unfortunate. But none of them led me to condemn or even feel wary
around an entire breed or any mixed-breed dog that might have that breed
in it. Dogs are individuals, just like people. It would be so nice if
people would remember that...
Wanda Hubnut
chihuahua/pitbull cross. I swear. I'm not making that up.
S.
In article <19990204223716...@ng134.aol.com>,
jfrc...@aol.com (JFRCHRDSN) wrote:
> Petyr writes:
>
> :Thank god his killer stud-muffin took out it's would-be breeding
> :partner before she could start popping out the cash crop.
>
> It's not easy to come onto this thread and look
> worse than the original poster, but you managed
> to do it, Petyr. Yes, I'm glad that Tanning won't
> be breeding any Pit Bulls, at least for a while
> (see below). But gloating over the death of a
> pup puts you barely if at all above the level of
> morons like "Grim Reaper".
>
> Aside to Tanning: Don't breed Pit Bulls, ever.
> Especially not with your weird people-spooked
> dog. But don't even do it with the best dog your
> money can buy. I'm neck deep in unwanted Pit
> Bulls at the shelter and will be no doubt for
> years. There is NO reason for any newbie to
> join the already loathesome breeding frenzy.
>
> JohnR
star chavez
dog,
who he personally expressed several concerns about"""
<snip>>
Actually, Liz....TO be fair, you did post a dig against a breed.."Mistake
one was getting a pit....Get a breed of dog that wasn't bred to be a
killer"...That about says it all.
THis has probably already been mentioned.
Cheers,Cin & Sid
Wanda Hubnut
non-fictional forms, draw huge audiences.
People ADORE violence and WORSHIP it. Where do you live, under a rock?
S.
In article <36c56eb7...@news.nr.infi.net>, pe...@movingon.com (Petyr
J. Smithe) wrote:
> dogst...@aol.com (DogStar716) wrote:
> >
> >>It is NOT natural for a species to kill its own kind.
> >
> >Mankind does it all the time...
>
> Yes, and the individuals who do so are despised and feared by normal
> humans. Your point?
Wanda Hubnut
Any conformation class requires that the dog conduct itself in the manner
that shows its physique, gait, and other attributes to its best
advantage. That's why they call them "show dogs". Duh.
And, the APBT is shown in conformation at the ADBA, UKA and ARBA shows all
over the country. Its counterpart, the American Staffordshire Terrier, is
an AKC dog.
S.
In article <36c36cb0...@news.nr.infi.net>, pe...@movingon.com (Petyr
J. Smithe) wrote:
> dawi...@yahoo.com (Wanda Hubnut) wrote:
>
> >In addition to its fighting heritage, the APBT was also used as a nanny
> >for infants and children, and today the breed excels in weightpulling,
> >conformation
>
> Tell me, how does a breed "excel in conformation"? Either a dog of a
> specific breed conforms to the breed standard, or it doesn't. Some
> breeds excel at certain *tasks*. Border Collies excel in sheepherding
> and canine frisbee. GSDs excel in Schutzhund. Beagles excel in
> hunting. Labs excel in retrieving. But to say that a breed,
> especially pit bulls which aren't even allowed in the AKC show ring,
> "excels" in conformation shows an ignorance of what conformation is,
> and is also typical of the low-brow bragging tendencies of typical
> pitbull owners.