black stripe on toes of German Shepherd
Dave
German Shepherd Dog, such that from a distance, it might appear that
the stripe was the nail/claw itself.
I have searched for other GSD feet pictures, and don't see it very
much (when I can see the feet at all, that is).
I would think of such markings as something that has evolved in some
line of dogs, to perhaps always appear that a dog had a weapon (a
claw)-- even when perhaps the actual nail/claw was missing, or not yet
developed.
Being that the GS breed itself isn't all that old, and didn't just
appear from thin air - i.e. it was made of existing dogs - I conclude
this striped toe thing developed in some ancestor dog?
Anyone have any info on this marking?
Gwen Watson
Dave wrote:
>
>Anyone have any info on this marking?
>
It is usually seen with the "black sable" GSDs. Or what
is called a "black sable" commonly. Is your GSD a sable?
I have never seen this marking in a black and tan GSD.
Gwen
Bethgsd
I have seen it on bi-colours and a few red sables too.
Beth
Liisa Sarakontu
news:52db8aa8.04051...@posting.google.com:
> Someone called it "pencil toe" -- a black stripe on the toes of my
> German Shepherd Dog, such that from a distance, it might appear that
> the stripe was the nail/claw itself.
Also known as "pencil markings". Very common in several breeds
(at least Dachshund), and sometimes seen in some other breeds
(Dobermann, Rottweiler, some hounds) too. Might be somehow connected to
black masking, as large mask tends to add dark shading to chest, paws and
tail too.
Liisa
Gwen Watson
Bethgsd wrote:
Yes after posting I was thinking I have seen it on red sable. But I have
never seen it on a bi-color. It must look awesome. I really love
that marking in GSDs.
Gwen
>
>
>
Dave
I beleive my dog is black and red. I have another dog which is more
tan than this, red, I suppose.
Here's a pic of him. I was not photographing his toes (ears was the
target), but you can see the pencil stripe on his rear driver's side
toes.
Gwen Watson
Dave wrote:
That is a beatiful "bi-color" GSD. Not a black and tan or black and red.
Indeed he has both colorings but the reference to GSDs who don't have
the "saddle" marking is called "bi-color"
Beautiful dog.
Gwen
onew...@netscape.net
gunr...@knac.com (Dave) did speak the following bit of wisdom:
>Anyone have any info on this marking?
Penciling and/or tar heels (smudgy black marks on the back of the
hocks) is often an indicator that the GSD is black-factored. Other
than that, it probably has no other "meaning." HTH...
*~ *~ *~
Karen C.
Spammers be damned! I can't be emailed from this account! So there...
"You have no power here!
...Be gone! Before somebody drops a house on you too!"
onew...@netscape.net
-0500, Gwen Watson <gw...@ig.utexas.edu> did speak the following bit of
wisdom:
>>http://home.comcast.net/~ucdcrush/sm112_1299.JPG
>>
>That is a beatiful "bi-color" GSD. Not a black and tan or black and red.
Gwen: I don't know that I'd call that dog a true bicolor without
knowing his age. Is this a young dog? If so, then the black coloring
my recede further eventually producing a blanket-marked dog. A true
bicolor is MOSTLY black with tan markings in very specific places.
Bethgsd
>Gwen: I don't know that I'd call that dog a true bicolor without
>knowing his age. Is this a young dog? If so, then the black coloring
>my recede further eventually producing a blanket-marked dog. A true
>bicolor is MOSTLY black with tan markings in very specific places.
That is what I thought when I saw the picture; looks like a young black and tan
to me. FWIW.
Beth
Gwen Watson
onew...@netscape.net wrote:
Yes you are more then likely correct that this dog is young and thus
is more then likely not a true "bi-color". I looked at him again
after reading your post. Though I have serious doubts that
this dog will ever have the saddle marking thus making
him closer to a bi-color then an actual black and tan from
my experience. Though he could very well obtain it, since
he does appear to be about 7 months old in that photo.
Gwen
Lynn K.
>
> That is what I thought when I saw the picture; looks like a young black and tan
> to me.
My thoughts too. FWIW, I've recently seen quite a few bis that go to
the other extreme - almost all black except for under the anal vent
and maybe a few tan hairs on the paws.
Lynn K.
Lynn K.
> to me.
My thoughts too. FWIW, I've recently seen quite a few bis that go to
Gwen Watson
Lynn K. wrote:
I have always thought the bi-color did include tan legs from elbows down
or just above?
I have never heard a bi-color to be almost all black with just tan anal
hairs
and few tan hairs on paws.
Ummmmmm, looks like I need to do a search on bi-color GSDs.
Gwen
Gwen Watson
Gwen Watson wrote:
>
>
> Lynn K. wrote:
>
>> bet...@aol.comnojunk (Bethgsd) wrote in message
>> news:<20040515142922...@mb-m18.aol.com>...
>>
>>
>>> That is what I thought when I saw the picture; looks like a young
>>> black and tan
>>> to me.
>>
>>
>> My thoughts too. FWIW, I've recently seen quite a few bis that go to
>> the other extreme - almost all black except for under the anal vent
>> and maybe a few tan hairs on the paws.
>>
>> Lynn K.
>>
>
On this link there is a bi-color listed the way I have always thought
they were to look. There are also many other colors.
http://www.4germanshep.com/coat_colors.htm
Indeed the one I original said looked like a bi-color is more
then likely a black and tan because he is clearly a young
dog.
Gwen
Bethgsd
>On this link there is a bi-color listed the way I have always thought
>they were to look. There are also many other colors.
>
I've never seen a bicolour marked that way in real life, FWIW. The ones I've
seen have all been mostly black with just tan feet and a little bit of tan on
their faces. I've never checked their anal vents.
Beth
Gwen Watson
Bethgsd wrote:
I have seen a bi-color marked that way, Blade's sire. From my understanding
a bi-color is any dog without a "blanket" or "saddle" and more black
than tan.
I could be very mistaken on that but this is what I have been told. I am not
sure. You certainly have more experience than me. I would like to find
the definition of what is and isn't considered a "bi-color". Again what I
have always understood was a GSD lacking any blanket and or saddling
marking?
If that is of error could you please direct me to an appropriate link
that explains
this marking in detail? I would most certainly appreciate it.
Gwen
CaptRon
"Gwen Watson" <gw...@ig.utexas.edu> wrote in message
news:c8d0he$lim$1...@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu...
>
> I could be very mistaken on that but this is what I have been told. I am
not
> sure. You certainly have more experience than me. I would like to find
> the definition of what is and isn't considered a "bi-color". Again what I
> have always understood was a GSD lacking any blanket and or saddling
> marking?
> If that is of error could you please direct me to an appropriate link
> that explains
> this marking in detail? I would most certainly appreciate it.
>
I will try to find the link, but this was talked about on the gsd forum.
There is a limit to the areas that the tan is found - small eyebrows, small
portion of the legs, etc. Rayden doesnt have a saddle, but I was told he
wasnt a bi-colar because he has too much tan.
dainerra
Gwen Watson
CaptRon wrote:
>
>I will try to find the link, but this was talked about on the gsd forum.
>There is a limit to the areas that the tan is found - small eyebrows, small
>portion of the legs, etc. Rayden doesnt have a saddle, but I was told he
>wasnt a bi-colar because he has too much tan.
>
>dainerra
>
>
Thank you. If you find it I would love to opportunity to read the exact
definition of a bi-color.
Gwen
>
>
>
CaptRon
there is a thread in the genetic issues group. It has several pictures of
"true" bi-color" dogs
The basic agreement is that bi-colors only have points of color on their
bodies. Also (of course) only 2 colors/shades.
or, if you prefer, email me and I can email you the page.
dainerra
Bethgsd
> I would like to find
>the definition of what is and isn't considered a "bi-color".
Please share it when you find it! I've always heard it to be a dog that was
marked like a doberman or rottweiler.
A good friend has a bi-colour coat (litter brother to Molly's Adra). He was
almost solid black as a puppy. She had a judge at a match tell her he was a
Groendal. The same judge told her that her sable bitch (half sister to my
Zivia) was a Malinois. (big belgian spelling ?)
Beth
Gwen Watson
CaptRon wrote:
Thank you. It appears it is a controversial issue from what I read on
the link
that you provided. It seems as though there is
no real consensus from what I could gather. Mostly
yes points of color but it seemed somewhat debatable. What I am
looking for would be more on the lines of Capt Max v. Stephanitz's
definition of bi-color. This link sure didn't completely rule out what
I have considered what is often accepted as a bi-color. Though it
does indicate that a "bi-color" has less tan than I thought it did. Still
chest tan is acceptable as a "bi-color". It also suggests dogs with
the black toe pencil marking are often considered "bi-colors". Personally
I have never seen a true black and tan carry this pencil toe marking. Thus
my reasoning for suggesting the one dog inquired about was most likely
a "bi-color".
Thanks again for taking the time to look this up. It is puzzling and I
personally
would like to know what judges say or someone of GSD authority. I may
write to "United Schutzhund Club of America" on this topic of interest to
me.
Gwen
Gwen Watson
Bethgsd wrote:
Beth I sure will. I am very perplexed by this now, to say the least
and find it fascinating as well. It will give me something interesting
to look into.
I may very well write to "United Schutzhund Club of America"
and see what they say and if they can provide me with several
links showing photos of several dogs considered "bi-color".
I have always thought it was acceptable to have tan eyebrows
and really the photo I showed on one link was what I thought was acceptable
as a "bi-color" but that most true "bi-colors" do have less tan then
that dog.
Gwen
Gwen Watson
>
>
> Bethgsd wrote:
>
>> Gwen wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>> I would like to find
>>> the definition of what is and isn't considered a "bi-color".
>>
>>
>> Please share it when you find it! I've always heard it to be a dog
>> that was
>> marked like a doberman or rottweiler.
>> A good friend has a bi-colour coat (litter brother to Molly's Adra).
>> He was
>> almost solid black as a puppy. She had a judge at a match tell her
>> he was a
>> Groendal. The same judge told her that her sable bitch (half sister
>> to my
>> Zivia) was a Malinois. (big belgian spelling ?)
>>
>> Beth
>>
Beth,
I have written to the Director of Judges at the United Schutzhund Club
of America
to see if he can forward me information on this topic. I really would
like to know
what is and isn't acceptable as a "bi-color". I am quite glad this topic
came up
as I have always thought more tan was allowed and it probably is not the
case.
I will post the email when I receive it.
Gwen
Gwen Watson
Right now I would consider this dog a definite "bi-color"
http://www.canineconcepts.com/bastin.html#pgtop
I will wait for reply from United Schutzhund Club of
America.
Gwen
>
Debbie S
From: gw...@ig.utexas.edu
<http://www.canineconcepts.com/bastin.html#pgtop >
I came > < this close to buying a pup sired by Bastin.
Debbie
Gwen Watson
Debbie S wrote:
Indeed. You are aware that Blade's sire Tell is from the same
exact kennel?
Gwen
>
>
>
Debbie S
From: gw...@ig.utexas.edu (Gwen Watson)
<Indeed. You are aware that Blade's sire Tell is from the same exact
kennel? >
Yup.
Debbie
Bethgsd
>I may very well write to "United Schutzhund Club of America"
>and see what they say and if they can provide me with several
>links showing photos of several dogs considered "bi-color".
>
Gwen,
You just jostled my brain. I have an old copy of the USA mag with an article
on GSD colours. And it was on top of the pile when I walked into the other
room to find it!
I'll type what it says on the bicolors. (the article is written by Linda Shaw.)
"Rich Bicolor, Melanistic Bicolor, Faded Bicolor.
Typically, the bicolor is a black dog with tan points much the same as a
Doberman. It is in fact the same gene. A very dark one with a strong black
mask and much extension of the black may appear to be solid black, with a black
undercoat and only some tan shading on the feet. Theoretically, bicolors
always show tan around the vent (underneath the tail). I have seen a virtually
black dog with just enough tan arount the ven (and between the toes) to suspect
tht it was a bicolor but not enough to be sure.
However, a pale bicolor can look strikingly like a black sable, showing much
black over a light-gray unercoat, with tan or gray over the nape of the neck
and along the harness lines, and black markings on the legs and feet. These
dogs have the genetics fro fading of the black mantle, and while they can still
appear dark to the eye, will produce color fading."
The article also has three illustrations of bicolour. Arlo is what they call a
melanistic or black bi-colour. Very sharp.
The issue is the July/August 2000 if you can get a back copy. If I can figure
out how to use my scanner, and it won't be before this weekend and probably
next, I'll send you a copy of the article.
Beth
Bethgsd
>Right now I would consider this dog a definite "bi-color"
>
>http://www.canineconcepts.com/bastin.html#pgtop
The article I quoted before would call him a rich bi-colour.
Beth
Gwen Watson
Bethgsd wrote:
Thank you Beth. I wonder how I can get my hands on that 2000 article?
Does it show photos? Indeed Bastin is a definite bi-color. At any rate
this has been an interesting topic. I appreciate you taking the time to
type this up. You don't need to go to the effort to scan the article
but if you have time and want to do it, you are more then welcome
to send it to my email.
Gwen
Gwen Watson
Debbie S wrote:
And Bastin is quite an awesome dog. But seriously several of Gary and Pam's
dogs are quite awesome. Pirol to name one though he never did actually
produce a pup that even came close to comparing from what I have
heard, through the "grapevine".
Gwen
Bethgsd
>Thank you Beth. I wonder how I can get my hands on that 2000 article?
>Does it show photos?
Gwen,
It has illustrations, but not photos. If you like, send my your snail mail
privately and I'll mail it to you.
Beth
Lynn K.
>
> Pirol to name one though he never did actually
> produce a pup that even came close to comparing from what I have
> heard, through the "grapevine".
I was offered a Pirol pup that I came very, very close to taking. I'm
glad now that I didn't take her since I've been able to see how that
litter grew up.
Lynn K.
The Puppy Wizard
BRED HAND PICKED and TESTED SAR dog JIVE.
"Lynn K." <jav...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:37cd72a9.04052...@posting.google.com...
Gwen Watson
Lynn K. wrote:
I recall that Lynn. And yes I have seen a few Pirol sons that certainly
didn't even come
close to what Pirol was. Some dogs like people or just marvels of the
world. Take
Mozart for instance or Leonardo da Vince. You just don't see that
everyday and I
am sure animals are the same way. Afterall Secretariat never produced
anything
that came near to how awesome he ran.
Gwen
onew...@netscape.net
-0500, Gwen Watson <gw...@ig.utexas.edu> did speak the following bit of
wisdom:
>On this link there is a bi-color listed the way I have always thought
>they were to look. There are also many other colors.
>
>http://www.4germanshep.com/coat_colors.htm
He's close. But I'd call that dog a blanket, not a bi.
*~ *~ *~
Karen C.
Spammers be damned! I can't be emailed from this account! So there...
"You have no power here!
...Be gone! Before somebody drops a house on you too!"
onew...@netscape.net
>It also suggests dogs with
>the black toe pencil marking are often considered "bi-colors". Personally
>I have never seen a true black and tan carry this pencil toe marking.
My medium-dark grey sable has a little penciling, but no tar heels.
She's only a pet and was spayed long ago, (she's a very old lady now)
so we'll never know. But she was from a huge "rainbow" litter. Her
sire was a black sable who carried black (he had penciling and tar
heels) and her dam was a nicely marked black and tan who also carried
black. The litter consisted of sables, bicolors, solid blacks and
black and tans. The smaller sable litter sister who I almost took
instead of Gia had the penciling and tar heels and her breeder
suspected that she carried black while my Gia does not. But like I
said... both were pets and never bred so we'll never know.
FWIW, the true bicolors in Gia's litter were basically solid black
pups with only some tan hairs on their feet and eyebrows to give them
away from their solid black siblings. But in each case, they all had
that very distinct ring of bright tan hair around their anus that
their self-color sibs did not have. And that's how my breeder was able
to tell which was which and who was who. HTH...
Sandy
>
> Lynn K.
Hi here, new, recouping from major surgery, perhaps it's just the
narcotics, but this is the only "anal vent" imagery that I can see in
my minds eye. http://www.geocities.com/bluesandybaby/Vent.htm
That or a tin hot water heater vent pipe, or an attic "vent" on the
butt end of a GSD. Imagery, imagery. And trust me, there's days my GSD
NEEDS an 'anal vent' if we've given her too much Mexican food. OUI!
Sandy
http://www.geocities.com/bluesandybaby/Vent.html that should work!
ralph...@gmail.com
> Someone called it "pencil toe" -- a black stripe on the toes of my
> German Shepherd Dog, such that from a distance, it might appear that
> the stripe was the nail/claw itself.
>
> I have searched for other GSD feet pictures, and don't see it very
> much (when I can see the feet at all, that is).
>
> I would think of such markings as something that has evolved in some
> line of dogs, to perhaps always appear that a dog had a weapon (a
> claw)-- even when perhaps the actual nail/claw was missing, or not yet
> developed.
>
> Being that the GS breed itself isn't all that old, and didn't just
> appear from thin air - i.e. it was made of existing dogs - I conclude
> this striped toe thing developed in some ancestor dog?
>
> Anyone have any info on this marking?
My Boxer has it on each of his pinky toes. Ms Stafford has it on each of his middle toes.
princes...@gmail.com
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