DO NOT BUY A BEARDED COLLIE! Our sad story
Dave McKay
Hello.
Our names are Suzanne and David McKay. We live in West Chester, Pa, and
have 4 children and a Shetland Sheepdog and 3 cats. In the spring of 2000,
we purchased a Beardie pup from Kiltie Kennels, also in Pa. . We paid $800.
Our family (kids aged 12,10,9,9) wanted to get another dog, so we all did
research to find what dog would best suit our needs. The Beardie seemed the
right choice. That turned out to be a big mistake. Over a $1,200 mistake,
that is.
Oh, the kids were so excited. The breeder only had 2 left. We loved the
puppies. We named her Muffy. She fit in so well with our other dog and the
cats. My wife is a stay-at-home mom, so the dog wasn’t alone most of the
day.Well, after about a year and being successfully housebroken, things went
downhill fast. First, she bit the little boy next door as he was leaving our
property. He was friends with our son. The boy’s parents were obviously
upset. Then, a few weeks later, Muffy took a big bite out of the UPS
delivery man as he was going out our front door. 12 stitches in his wrist!
We were lucky we weren’t sued. So we called the breeder and returned the dog
to see if she could figure out what went wrong.
She never did tell us. Never took the dog to the vet to have it checked out
(as far as we know) and refused to return any or all of our money. Didn’t
even offer to give us a new puppy from her next litter. Even stopped
returning our calls and ignored a letter from our attorney!
So, I was at the vet’s office and picked up a copy of Dog Fancy magazine.
Paging through the ads in the back, I saw an ad for a Beardie Breeder in
Georgia. I got home and called her.
She said that she knows the breeder that we bought from and that she is
going to (and has been) breed her dog with the stud dog from OUR breeder.
Then, IT STRUCK ME. These few, tight-knit breeders in the U.S. are passing
around the same stud dogs and probably creating in-bred puppies with a
propensity for aggressive behavior. They’re probably breeding the father
with the daughter or half-daughter and other like-kind matings. I mean, what
are the chances that I called a Beardie Breeder at random and happened to
get one that is mating their dogs with my breeder’s dogs? Pretty slim
chance, unless they’re such a close knit group that the same stud dogs are
fathering most of the puppies in the U.S.
My recommendation? DO NOT BUY A BEARDIE. FIND ANOTHER BREED! It’s not worth
the heartache and aggravation to you or especially your children. It’s been
10 months since Muffy left and the kids are still upset. Heartbroken kids
and a big hole in your wallet is what might happen to you if you buy a
beardie!
David & Suzanne McKay
A52...@att.net
pwiggins
me as foster parent (breeder maintained rights to show).
True enough that each breed has be bred for a particular jobs and therefor those
traits carry over when added to a family as a pet... however once you've nailed
down a breed based upon these generalizations.... there are really only two ways
to improve your chances at ending up with a "good" addition to your family:
1) Spending quality time with the parents in varying settings.
2) Selecting a dog 6months or older.
If you're not sure what to look for... hire a consultant to join you in your
search.
fwiw, you mileage will vary. Good luck and all that.
-paul
Darby L. Wiggins
purchasing a Bearded if they have done the research and have decided that this
is the bread for them.
While there may have been some questionable breeding in your case, I have
learned from this NG that most problems such as the one you have described are
not breed related but human related. I don't know much about Bearded Collies so
I can't speak for what the standard says about disposition but even if the
standard called for a dog that was not known to be the most friendly, it
certainly would not call for a dog to be as aggressive as this one was. This NG
has taught me that these kinds of behavior problems generally come out of poor
socialization and training of the dog from an early age. This is not to say that
you did not attempt to train the dog, but perhaps this breed needs a bit more
attention than you were able to give and was not a breed for a novice owner (I'm
assuming this was your first dog, if not I apologize).
Regardless, it is a shame that your breeder was not willing to assist you with
the issue you were having with your dog. Did you try taking the dog to obedience
classes? Where is the dog now?
Darby
TO...@dog-play.com
> Our tale of sadness of being a Bearded Collie owner
<snip story>
That is about as poorly reasoned a post as I have seen in a long time.
Do some breeders breed dogs of poor temperament? Yes. But (a) that is
no reason to condemn the entire breed and (b) there is zero evidence that
the problem was the innate temperament of the dog. This is a description
of ONE dog and based on that you condemn the entire breed.
The breeder did the right thing in taking the dog back.
I have met a large number of Bearded Collies, well over couple dozen and
without exception all have had wonderful temperaments. They also had
owners who properly socialized them and taught them good manners. They
were also owned by people who actually know that inbreeding is neither
bad nor good but is simply one thing to consider in choosing a dog. They
were also owned by people who knew what a responsible breeder was and how
to evalauate one.
Whether your problems stemmed from a problem with the dog itself or the
way in which you raised and managed it is simply impossible to tell given
the lack of significant information. It doesn't really matter at this
point as regardless it was obviously the wrong dog for you. Certainly
any person condsidering any dog at all should be careful to consider
BOTH genetic health AND temperament before taking the dog home. But
there is nothing inately wrong with the breed nor is bad temperament in
the breed as serious a problem as it is in many other breeds.
Dave McKay
We did take the dog to a two week obedience class well before the problems
started. (3 classes a week if I remember correctly. And practiced the
homework the trainer gave us too!
The dog was returned to the breeder who refuses to have any contact with us.
We got nothing back. Our lawyer said we didn't have to return the dog at
all, as that portion of the contract was legally invalid. But it was the
only thing we could do, short of putting the dog to sleep. Couldn't give it
away, who would want a dog (even a free dog) with a history of biting
people?
Our lawyer said absolutely do not ask for the dog back. With a history of
biting, our homeowner's insurance rates could be raised or the policy even
cancelled. Not to mention the possible future biting occurrences. Not worth
the time (3 hour drive) and money to sue the breeder in court. Costs would
be more than the dog was worth.
Dave McKay
"Darby L. Wiggins" <dwig...@gmu.edu> wrote in message
news:3C92137A...@gmu.edu...
Darby L. Wiggins
Well, I do not know what to say. Im not a dog expert as everything I've learned
has been from this NG and from my limited experience with a Dachshund. Any
Beardie owners out there that have some suggestions?
It's a shame that your breeder turned out to be such a shmutz. It sounds to me
that this person was not operating with the best of intentions if they refused
to assist you in any way in finding out what went wrong with this dog. I don't
know, I'm new to the responsibilities of breeders and their contracts. It sounds
like this might have been a well operating BYB, but that is just my opinion and
I'd concede if I was wrong.
When you took your pup home, was the mom on site? did you get a chance to
interact with her? what about the other puppies? any updates on how they were
adjusting to their new homes? and the remaining pup, an reason why these two
were the last two? how did they pups interact with each other and with your wife
and children before you brought it home? I assume that Beadie's have some health
tests like other breeds, though I don't know specifically what they are, but how
did the mother and father rate on those tests? Was this the Bitch's first litter
and if not, was their any indication on how her earlier pups were doing? Was the
breeder breading for a specific trait, such as conformation ect or was this just
fairly hastily planned breeding?
I don't know how big or small the pool of quality breeding Beardie's are, but
I'd imagine that it might be somewhat limited as this dog I would assume, and
please correct me if I'm wrong, is not a really popular breed (or at least, you
don't see them often), so its not unlikely that the breeder would have to go to
SC (was that were the other breeder in the magazine was located?? I can't
remember) to find a quality sire. Breeders can correct me if I'm wrong, but I
would think that in a breed that is not as large in quantity as yours that it
might not be uncommon for breeders to know of each other and even have multiple
breeding, so It might not be that slim of a chance that this breeder you found
in the magazine would know your breeder.
With all that said, this dog may have had some innate difficulties in that it
may have been poorly breed with the tendency toward temperament difficulties but
I still stand firm that most of these situations can be corrected by proper
training and socialization.
Having said that, I can appreciate the situation you were in with small children
at home and small children in the area and owning a dog that has a record of
biting. It's a bad situation all around and while I think that owning a dog is a
lifelong commitment and you stick it out even through the bad times, I myself
don't know that I wouldn't do the same thing you did if I were in your shoes.
Its a shame that this has happened to you, but to blame the breed as a whole is
not fair. I am certain that their are many Beardies out their with wonderful
temperaments and perhaps you ended up with a "lemon".
Good luck with your next dog.
Darby
Melinda Shore
Darby L. Wiggins <dwig...@gmu.edu> wrote:
>It's a shame that your breeder turned out to be such a shmutz.
I wouldn't jump to conclusions about this - we don't know
much about the actual circumstances, and the breeder may
have decided that it would be irresponsible to place another
dog in the same situation. Or maybe not. Hard to say.
--
Melinda Shore - Software longa, hardware brevis - sh...@panix.com
If you send me harassing email, I'll probably post it
Darby L. Wiggins
know the ins and outs of breeder/owner contracts and what happens when a
placement goes bad. I just thought it was in poor taste for the breeder to
refuse to continue any contact with the previous owners regarding the dog,
if indeed that is what actually happened.
Darby
Melinda Shore
Darby L. Wiggins <dwig...@gmu.edu> wrote:
>True, we don't know all the circumstances and I certainly don't claim to
>know the ins and outs of breeder/owner contracts and what happens when a
>placement goes bad. I just thought it was in poor taste for the breeder to
>refuse to continue any contact with the previous owners regarding the dog,
>if indeed that is what actually happened.
These people have already said that they put a lawyer on the
breeder. The whole situation sounds pretty bad, and since I
have no investment in what's going on and I don't have more
information, I'm not going to say "Beardies - ewww" on the
basis of that one post.
Manadero
(snip long story)
> First, she bit the little boy next door as he was leaving our
>property.
>Then, a few weeks later, Muffy took a big bite out of the UPS
>delivery man as he was going out our front door.
My first question would be why this dog has the freedom to bite as someone is
"leaving your property", or why, after the first bite, something wasn't done to
supervise her. I'm no Beardie expert, but as a groomer of 15 years, I can say
I've never met one I didn't like. Most herding breeds have guardian instincts
as well.
My gut tells me that this dog was out of control long before these "freak"
things. Probably a dominant girl in a home with inexperienced owners, who felt
it was her "job" to protect her territory. Not awful, not defective, just a
dog.
>So we called the breeder and returned the dog to see if she could figure out
what went >wrong.
She should have discussed this with you. It's disappointing to hear that she
would not. After all, she is the one that chose to match you with that
particular puppy. Perhaps she felt that the enviroment was to blame and that
you would not accept that?
There are always three sides to every story.
Your side. Their side. The truth.
>Didn’t
>even offer to give us a new puppy from her next litter.
Don't take this the wrong way, but the vast majority of problems like you
describe are handler error. (I do rescue for another herding breed and it's
amazing how good those "horrible" dogs are after a week in an experienced home)
I wouldn't be anxious to hand over another puppy nor refund money if I felt
that the enviroment was to blame.
>Then, IT STRUCK ME. These few, tight-knit breeders in the U.S. are passing
>around the same stud dogs and probably creating in-bred puppies with a
>propensity for aggressive behavior.
The fact that someone else used her dog for stud, doesn't, in my opinion, damn
the whole breed. Is the dog in question your puppy's sire? Did she mention
temperament problems? As I mentioned before, I am active in competition and as
a groomer (In Georgia) and I have never seen a nasty Beardie. Not to say there
aren't any, I'm sure there are (as there are bad apples in any breed)
>They’re probably breeding the father
>with the daughter or half-daughter and other like-kind matings.
Line breedings are used to set type. If the dogs in question had aggression
issues, that wouldn't be a sound breeding decision, but it doesn't mean that
_every_ line breeding produces defective, aggressive dogs. In fact, if not for
this type of breeding, most breeds wouldn't even exist.
>I mean, what
>are the chances that I called a Beardie Breeder at random and happened to
>get one that is mating their dogs with my breeder’s dogs?
Pretty good actually.
>Pretty slim
>chance, unless they’re such a close knit group that the same stud dogs are
>fathering most of the puppies in the U.S.
Your logic is faulty because it's a LOT more expensive, time consuming and
troublesome to go across the country to find a stud than to just use a local
one.
>DO NOT BUY A BEARDIE. FIND ANOTHER BREED!
Which breed do you think has no line breeding? No problems? No unresponsive
breeders?
>Heartbroken kids
>and a big hole in your wallet is what might happen to you if you buy a
>beardie!
Have you checked out local rescues or your local animal shelter? Plenty of
wonderful companion dogs dying every day for lack of a loving home. My
suggestion would be to pick a breed (or mix) more suited to first time owners
with many small children.
Robin
Brown Margaret
>On Fri, 15 Mar 2002 15:10:14 GMT Dave McKay <a52...@att.net> whittled these words:
>> Our tale of sadness of being a Bearded Collie owner
><snip story>
>That is about as poorly reasoned a post as I have seen in a long time.
>Do some breeders breed dogs of poor temperament? Yes. But (a) that is
>no reason to condemn the entire breed and (b) there is zero evidence that
>the problem was the innate temperament of the dog. This is a description
>of ONE dog and based on that you condemn the entire breed.
This is indicative of a tendency for people to believe that their personal
experiences can be extrapolated into broad generalities.
One occurence is unworthy of broad application. One Data Point does not
equal a trend.
My father once had a terrible Doberman. One situation. One bad breeder.
Not a bad breed.
Maggie
--
- Happiness is not having what you want, it's wanting what you have.
Christy
"Dave McKay" <a52...@att.net> wrote in message
news:q9ok8.10462$tP2.9...@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...
Your story makes little sense, but fortunately, anyone interested in buying
a Beardie will hopefully do more research than you did and find a
responsible breeder. I've met many Beardies and they are fine dogs - of
course, they weren't from puppy mills/backyard breeders. If you're
interested in learning about responsible breeders, check out
www.dog-play.com/ethics.html and if you'd like to learn more about the
breed, visit http://www.beardie.net/bcca/. I hope you can learn from your
mistake but you are very wrong in condemning the entire breed.
Christy
Twzl, Sligo and Roy Happy Together
>True, we don't know all the circumstances and I certainly don't claim to
>know the ins and outs of breeder/owner contracts and what happens when a
>placement goes bad. I just thought it was in poor taste for the breeder to
>refuse to continue any contact with the previous owners regarding the dog,
>if indeed that is what actually happened.
I don't know. I get to hear all sorts of horror stories in my breed
because I'm on the board of directors for our national club. I hear hair
raising stories from puppy buyers, where you would swear the breeder was
from hell and just awful: and then you talk to the breeder and you find
out all sorts of things that the puppy buyer forgot to mention.
It is not at all uncommon when someone doesn't work out, for the breeder
to NOT want to place a second dog with the buyer or to break off all
contact. Often legal threats have been lobbed at the breeder, angry
libelous posts to breed specific lists have been made, phone calls sent,
etc. Is it surprising that after stuff like that, a breeder might not want
anything to do with the problem person?
Hey, maybe these people were in the right, completly, and the breeder was
all wrong. But after you hear enough stories like this you have a huge
store of skepticism. You simply can't believe all of one side, especially
when you have heard nothing from the other.
Ann, Twzl, Sligo and Roy
--
==========================================================================
I suppose women have nothing much to do and many of them go into dog training.
It's a vanity thing apparently.
Ron Hardin
Christy
""Twzl, Sligo and Roy Happy Together"" <alg...@panix.com> wrote in message
news:a6tmif$drv$1...@panix3.panix.com...
>
> I don't know. I get to hear all sorts of horror stories in my breed
> because I'm on the board of directors for our national club. I hear hair
> raising stories from puppy buyers, where you would swear the breeder was
> from hell and just awful: and then you talk to the breeder and you find
> out all sorts of things that the puppy buyer forgot to mention.
>
> It is not at all uncommon when someone doesn't work out, for the breeder
> to NOT want to place a second dog with the buyer or to break off all
> contact. Often legal threats have been lobbed at the breeder, angry
> libelous posts to breed specific lists have been made, phone calls sent,
> etc. Is it surprising that after stuff like that, a breeder might not want
> anything to do with the problem person?
>
> Hey, maybe these people were in the right, completly, and the breeder was
> all wrong. But after you hear enough stories like this you have a huge
> store of skepticism. You simply can't believe all of one side, especially
> when you have heard nothing from the other.
When I read this, the first thing that I thought of was some rabid angry
buyer threatening "give me a refund or I'll post my story on the internet
and nobody will buy your lousy dogs ever again!!"
Who knows what reality is...
Christy
Andrea
news:q9ok8.10462$tP2.9...@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...
> My recommendation? DO NOT BUY A BEARDIE. FIND ANOTHER BREED! It's not
worth
> the heartache and aggravation
Dave,
Don't you think characterizing the entire breed based on one negative
experience is overkill? I mean think about it - I'm sure we've all had
negative experiences with one breed or another. Doesn't mean they're all
"bad".
I think your warning, and telling people to make sure to do LOTS of
research, and meet as many dogs as possible, maybe fostering, etc would be a
really good thing. Share you're info, but painting the breed with one broad
brush won't win you many friends or converts.
I'm sorry you had such a bad experience.
--
-Andrea
Saorsa Basenjis
Andrea
<snip>
Breeders can correct me if I'm wrong, but I
> would think that in a breed that is not as large in quantity as yours that
it
> might not be uncommon for breeders to know of each other and even have
multiple
> breeding, so It might not be that slim of a chance that this breeder you
found
> in the magazine would know your breeder.
IME, even in more popular breeds, breeders often know one another even if by
name only. That is, provided they are members of the National club,
advertise in breed magazines, etc.. In enquiring with a Standard Poodle
breeder on the Eastcoast, I was surprised to find out she knew a former
employer of mine, a Breeder/Handler of Toy Poodles here on the other side of
the country.
--
-Andrea
Saorsa Basenjis
Twzl, Sligo and Roy Happy Together
>When I read this, the first thing that I thought of was some rabid angry
>buyer threatening "give me a refund or I'll post my story on the internet
>and nobody will buy your lousy dogs ever again!!"
>Who knows what reality is...
Probably not what the OP posted...
WhansaMi
I'm no expert in Beardie's, but I've always admired them, and remember hearing
a couple of people say "not a good dog for the novice owner" and "must have
good and consistent training". As I read the post, it occurred to me that the
owner sounded like he didn't understand what might be a Beardie's innate
tendency toward dominance/guarding behavior. It also seems to me that this
breed of dog probably needs more training than 2 or 3 weeks worth, and
consistent running through of commands in order to maintain her sense of "who's
da boss".
Sheila
Tara
Melinda Shore wrote:
>
> In article <3C9235E6...@gmu.edu>,
> Darby L. Wiggins <dwig...@gmu.edu> wrote:
> >It's a shame that your breeder turned out to be such a shmutz.
>
> I wouldn't jump to conclusions about this - we don't know
> much about the actual circumstances, and the breeder may
> have decided that it would be irresponsible to place another
> dog in the same situation. Or maybe not. Hard to say.
That and I sensed that they wrote a "right of first refusal" into the
sales contract. Run of the mill BYBs don't generally even honore these,
let alone enforce them.
The scenario, as deescribed, is too murky. I wouldn't jump to
conclusions either.
Tara
Dave McKay
>
> When you took your pup home, was the mom on site?
Yes
did you get a chance to interact with her?
Yes. Wasn't very affectionate. Seemed as if the dogs weren't allowed outside
very much.
I guess that was a red flag that we should have caught. But the breeder was
a nationally reputable breeder with show dog winners, so maybe that was the
"blinders" we had.
what about the other puppies? any updates on how they were
adjusting to their new homes?
No, no contact after the sale, unless initiated by us.
and the remaining pup, any reason why these two
> were the last two?
No, no reason given.
how did the pups interact with each other and with your wife
> and children before you brought it home?
The pups seemed so excited to be outside that they were exploring the yard,
not us. That's probably
a usual thing for a herding dog.
I assume that Beadie's have some health
> tests like other breeds, though I don't know specifically what they are,
but how
> did the mother and father rate on those tests?
No genetic faults such as hip dysplasia.
Was this the Bitch's first litter
> and if not, was their any indication on how her earlier pups were doing?
Had numerous litters, but breeder spoke little else.
Was the breeder breading for a specific trait, such as conformation ect or
was this just
> fairly hastily planned breeding?
She breeds about one litter per year. Again, all show dog quality and many
years experience
with winning show dogs. What more could you ask for?
>
> With all that said, this dog may have had some innate difficulties in that
it
> may have been poorly breed with the tendency toward temperament
difficulties but
> I still stand firm that most of these situations can be corrected by
proper
> training and socialization.
We had obedience training and a loving family with well-behaved children.
> Having said that, I can appreciate the situation you were in with small
children
> at home and small children in the area and owning a dog that has a record
of
> biting. It's a bad situation all around and while I think that owning a
dog is a
> lifelong commitment and you stick it out even through the bad times, I
myself
> don't know that I wouldn't do the same thing you did if I were in your
shoes.
Thank you
>
> Its a shame that this has happened to you, but to blame the breed as a
whole is
> not fair.
You're right, I shouldn't say that. It's just that we have a hole in our
hearts which was aggravated by the poor conduct of our breeder
I am certain that their are many Beardies out their with wonderful
> temperaments and perhaps you ended up with a "lemon".
That seems to be the case.
Dave McKay
"Melinda Shore" <.
>
> I wouldn't jump to conclusions about this - we don't know
> much about the actual circumstances,
Jeez, what more can we tell you? I feel like I've written a novel thus far.
> have decided that it would be irresponsible to place another
> dog in the same situation.
I guess that's the breeder's perogative. But to completely ignore us was
completely uncalled for.
Dave McKay
" I just thought it was in poor taste for the breeder to
> refuse to continue any contact with the previous owners regarding the dog,
> if indeed that is what actually happened.
Trust me, that is exactly what happened.
> > >It's a shame that your breeder turned out to be such a shmutz.
Boy, that's an understatement!
Dave McKay
> That and I sensed that they wrote a "right of first refusal" into the
> sales contract. Run of the mill BYBs don't generally even honore these,
> let alone enforce them.
Heck, we were actually glad that the breeder was willing to take the dog
back. The other options were very unappealing.
>
> The scenario, as deescribed, is too murky.
I guess I'll have to keep writing that novel. What more do you need to
know?.
Dave McKay
<
> That is about as poorly reasoned a post as I have seen in a long time.
Sorry, our hearts are broken and after 10 months of being ignored by the
breeder, we're angry.
> Do some breeders breed dogs of poor temperament? Yes. But (a) that is
> no reason to condemn the entire breed and (b) there is zero evidence that
> the problem was the innate temperament of the dog. This is a description
> of ONE dog and based on that you condemn the entire breed.
Ok, fair enough. I guess we got a lemon. But what if there is indeed
improper inbreeding? Problems like ours will crop up in ever increasing
frequency.
>
> The breeder did the right thing in taking the dog back.
We agree. The question is...what has happened to Muffy? Contract says that
the breeder has to tell us what she does with the dog. Breeder hasn't lived
up to that part of the contract.
>
They
> were also owned by people who knew what a responsible breeder was and how
> to evalauate one.
So did we. Our breeder had a great reputation. And still does, according to
e-mails I've just gotten.
>
> Whether your problems stemmed from a problem with the dog itself or the
> way in which you raised and managed it is simply impossible to tell given
> the lack of significant information.
Ok, what more do YOU need to know? We bought books, and read them before we
bought Muffy. We knew exactly what kind of dog we were getting. We took her
to obedience school for weeks. We selected a nationally reputable breeder.
We are experienced dog owners. We already had a herding dog, a sheltie. Both
my wife and I have always had dogs since we were children. Our children are
well behaved.
WHAT MORE could we have possibly done to ensure a successful dog purchase?
It doesn't really matter at this
> point as regardless it was obviously the wrong dog for you.
No, it was the right choice, just the victim of a bad example.
Tricia9999
>breed of dog probably needs more training than 2 or 3 weeks worth, and
>consistent running through of commands in order to maintain her sense of
>"who's
>da boss".
ANY dog needs more than 2 weeks training. Geez, that's like assuming that
because a kid learns to crawl, you are all done and the kid can now go out and
earn a living and function in the world. BUT a Beardie is right up at the top
of the list as a dog that needs lots of training. The OP said they had 2 weeks
of obed. class. That's not even realistic for the most novice and naive of dog
owners. A dog needs lifelong training.
Dave McKay
> My first question would be why this dog has the freedom to bite as someone
is
> "leaving your property",
What should we do? Keep the dog tied up all the time?
or why, after the first bite, something wasn't done to
> supervise her.
We did, but like children, you can't supervise them 24/7.
I'm no Beardie expert, but as a groomer of 15 years, I can say
> I've never met one I didn't like.
Really? Our groomer of more than 15 years felt uncomfortable with our
beardie.
> My gut tells me that this dog was out of control long before these "freak"
> things. Probably a dominant girl in a home with inexperienced owners, who
felt
> it was her "job" to protect her territory. Not awful, not defective, just
a
> dog.
hardly. We're very experienced. And if a dog has to extract 12 stitches from
a delivery man to "protect her territory", and that's not a defective dog,
then nobody should ever own a dog for safety reasons!
Perhaps she felt that the enviroment was to blame and that
> you would not accept that?
Whatever she felt, we never got a chance to accept anything, since she
completely ignored us.
>
> There are always three sides to every story.
>
> Your side. Their side. The truth.
Betcha' the breeder won't come on here because she knows our side is the
truth!
Sorry you can't believe what I say
> Don't take this the wrong way, but the vast majority of problems like you
> describe are handler error. (I do rescue for another herding breed and
it's
> amazing how good those "horrible" dogs are after a week in an experienced
home)
> I wouldn't be anxious to hand over another puppy nor refund money if I
felt
> that the enviroment was to blame.
We have a sheltie, a herding dog, that has never bit anybody.
> The fact that someone else used her dog for stud, doesn't, in my opinion,
damn
> the whole breed. Is the dog in question your puppy's sire?
Yes
Did she mention temperament problems?
No
> Line breedings are used to set type. If the dogs in question had
aggression
> issues, that wouldn't be a sound breeding decision, but it doesn't mean
that
> _every_ line breeding produces defective, aggressive dogs. In fact, if
not for
> this type of breeding, most breeds wouldn't even exist.
Thanks for the info.
>
> Have you checked out local rescues or your local animal shelter? Plenty
of
> wonderful companion dogs dying every day for lack of a loving home. My
> suggestion would be to pick a breed (or mix) more suited to first time
owners
> with many small children.
Maybe we should. But we are NOT first time owners. And beardies were
supposed to be good with children.
Dave McKay
> Your story makes little sense, but fortunately, anyone interested in
buying
> a Beardie will hopefully do more research than you did and find a
> responsible breeder.
Read my recent posts. We did everything possible to ensure a successful
placement.
Dave McKay
> I don't know. I get to hear all sorts of horror stories in my breed
> because I'm on the board of directors for our national club. I hear hair
> raising stories from puppy buyers, where you would swear the breeder was
> from hell and just awful: and then you talk to the breeder and you find
> out all sorts of things that the puppy buyer forgot to mention.
Maybe, if the breeder isn't lying to protect their reputation.
>
> It is not at all uncommon when someone doesn't work out, for the breeder
> to NOT want to place a second dog with the buyer or to break off all
> contact.
And keep the dog AND the money? What a sleazy business practice!
>Often legal threats have been lobbed at the breeder, angry
> libelous posts to breed specific lists have been made, phone calls sent,
> etc. Is it surprising that after stuff like that, a breeder might not want
> anything to do with the problem person?
Breeder should try to settle the matter in an amicable way, not break off
all contact.
>
> Hey, maybe these people were in the right, completly, and the breeder was
> all wrong. But after you hear enough stories like this you have a huge
> store of skepticism. You simply can't believe all of one side, especially
> when you have heard nothing from the other.
You should give the buyer the benefit of the doubt, NOT the breeder!
Dave McKay
> When I read this, the first thing that I thought of was some rabid angry
> buyer threatening "give me a refund or I'll post my story on the internet
> and nobody will buy your lousy dogs ever again!!"
> Who knows what reality is...
We waited 10 months to settle the matter with the breeder. Breeder still
ignores us.
I'm obviously trying to heal my family's broken hearts first, not some
sleazy ulterior motive as you suggest. Muffy was a member of the family and
we loved her very much, and still do. Where ever she is.
Dave McKay
""> >When I read this, the first thing that I thought of was some rabid
angry
> >buyer threatening "give me a refund or I'll post my story on the internet
> >and nobody will buy your lousy dogs ever again!!"
> >Who knows what reality is...
> Probably not what the OP posted...
I guess with that logic, you can't ever believe anything that is posted on
these boards. Sorry you can't feel our pain, which is now mixed with anger
with the breeder.
Alice Cabrera
: And keep the dog AND the money? What a sleazy business practice!
THe person had paid for the dog. When it didn't work out cause of what the
buyer did, I can easily see why. First, because it was the buyer who was
the problem, not the dog. Second, because why would they want to give
another dog to a buyer who obviously didn't know how to care for the dog?
I suppose I could see them giving the money back in such a situation, but
I definitely see and support them not giving another animal to the buyer.
And really, if it was the buyer's problem, why should the breeder have to
give the money back? They sold a perfectly good dog, and now they have to
spend more money trying to place it again.
: You should give the buyer the benefit of the doubt, NOT the breeder!
Why? Just cause you are the buyer? That hardly seems fair to me. And it is
a very arbitrary way of judging who to trust.
And it makes it harder to take your word when you come off very
reactionary. You have condemned a whole breed from one experience (that
in itself already made me wonder more about you than the breeder). YOu
have taken coincidential happenings and insist that they mean something
other than coincidence (just cuase another breeder happens to use that
breeder's dogs). You get upset when people mention that maybe things
aren't always what they seem, that there are always two sides to a story
and insist that everyone believe you and not understand why maybe there
is some doubt. Part of me wonders if you are just a good troll.
What else doesn't make me trust you is that you seem very defensive....
tends to make me think you are more hiding something than telling the
truth. Like you know something you did was in the wrong and are trying to
confirm to yourself that you are right. Maybe you need to lean back and
reread your first post and understnad why you have so many people
doubting you. Oh, and thankfully I doubt anyone with common sense is
going to rule out that particular breed just because of your post.
Alice
--
The root cause of problems is simple overpopulation. People just aren't
worth very much any more, and they know it. Makes 'em testy. ...Bev
|\ _,,,---,,_ Tigress
/,`.-'`' -. ;-;;,_ http://havoc.gtf.gatech.edu/tigress
|,4- ) )-,_..;\ ( `'-' tig...@havoc.gtf.gatech.edu
'---''(_/--' `-'\_) Cat by Felix Lee.
Twzl, Sligo and Roy Happy Together
>Ok, what more do YOU need to know? We bought books, and read them before we
>bought Muffy. We knew exactly what kind of dog we were getting. We took her
>to obedience school for weeks. We selected a nationally reputable breeder.
How long did she go to classes?
Did both adults in the house go with her?
What did you learn with her?
Did you tell your instructor when you still had problems?
How old was she when she went?
In between classes, what sort of practice did you do?
Twzl, Sligo and Roy Happy Together
>> My first question would be why this dog has the freedom to bite as someone
>is
>> "leaving your property",
>What should we do? Keep the dog tied up all the time?
Your dog went to an obedience class: did she learn "leave it"? "Stay?" "No
dogs", so she wouldn't go through any open door? Was the dog loose in your
yard when someone opened the gate to deliver a package, or did she just
burst through an open front door?
>or why, after the first bite, something wasn't done to
>> supervise her.
>We did, but like children, you can't supervise them 24/7.
Um, if she is not trained, then yes, you have to. You may not supervise a
15 year old kid 24/7, but I bet you supervised your kid as a baby much
more carefully. And if there was a situation that was too much for kid, I
bet you kept your kid away from it. Which is what you have to do when you
have a dog and deliveries to your house.
>hardly. We're very experienced. And if a dog has to extract 12 stitches from
>a delivery man to "protect her territory", and that's not a defective dog,
>then nobody should ever own a dog for safety reasons!
I'd like to hear more about that...was she out in the yard? Or did she
burst through the front door to nail the delivery person?
>We have a sheltie, a herding dog, that has never bit anybody.
And the worst bite I ever got in my life, bar none, was from a Sheltie.
Happened when I was 9:still have the scars.
>Maybe we should. But we are NOT first time owners. And beardies were
>supposed to be good with children.
Said who? I don't think that most herding dogs are good with kids, unless
the parents are very committed to lots of early training. Herding dogs
are often not tolerant of kids running around and screaming: they wind up
nipping the kids to keep the herd in line. Kid screams louder, bite gets
harder.
Twzl, Sligo and Roy Happy Together
>You should give the buyer the benefit of the doubt, NOT the breeder!
Why? Again, can you elaborate on what sort of training you did with the
dog, and for how long? How effective was the training?
Twzl, Sligo and Roy Happy Together
>I suppose I could see them giving the money back in such a situation, but
>I definitely see and support them not giving another animal to the buyer.
>And really, if it was the buyer's problem, why should the breeder have to
>give the money back? They sold a perfectly good dog, and now they have to
>spend more money trying to place it again.
Well, sort of. My advice in mediating breeder/buyer disputes is to always,
no matter what, return the full purchase price. If it costs $1,000 or
whatever the puppy cost to get the buyer to leave the breeder alone, it is
money well spent. It is scary to me how often people will not return the
money, simply because they do not have it. That's not good.
Again, we're not hearing both sides, but if the breeder took back the
puppy and the buyer is still not happy and is possibly litigious, my
advice to the breeder would have been to write a check for the full puppy
price and turn it over. End of story, end of problems.
Melinda Shore
Dave McKay <A52...@att.net> wrote:
>I guess that's the breeder's perogative. But to completely ignore us was
>completely uncalled for.
It depends. If you were calling her up every 3 hours,
berating her for selling you a dangerous dog, demanding a
new one, and threatening to call a lawyer, I'd ignore you
too. If you were calling up from time to time and asking
for help I wouldn't. She may feel that you mishandled the
dog, in which case she doesn't owe you a thing.
--
Melinda Shore - Software longa, hardware brevis - sh...@panix.com
If you send me harassing email, I'll probably post it
WhansaMi
Tricia, of course, you are right about all dogs needing more, but, like you, I
think that relatively speaking, the Beardie needs more than the average.
Sheila
WhansaMi
The OP said that she went to 2 or 3 weeks of classes, up to three times a week.
I can't remember the exact wording, but, as I remember it, this was shortly
after she was brought home, which of course, meant puppy training. To my mind,
this is not sufficient training, especially for a breed whose temperament tends
toward the dominant. So, yes, I think the owner has to take some
responsibility for how the dog turned out. Sorry, Dave.
Sheila
Melinda Shore
WhansaMi <whan...@aol.com> wrote:
>Tricia, of course, you are right about all dogs needing more, but, like you, I
>think that relatively speaking, the Beardie needs more than the average.
I think I've heard that said about every breed.
diddy
problems that fixed in a week to a month. If they FIX.. It's not a
temperament problem. It's an OWNER problem. (I know you won't accept
this is the case)
However, even if it's fixable, you can't rehome that dog because it did
bite, it's then a liability.
You then have an obligation to keep this dog for the rest of it's life.
Find a working home for it under skilled handlers IF the dog qualifies
(I have done this with some unusually talented rescues who are now
working for the Texas Border Patrol) Or fix the dog and put it down.
If it has a temperament problem, it would be put down anyway. The
breeder needs to know if it's owner or temperament problem.
I have rarely ever seen a dog who ACTUALLY HAD a temperament problem.
MOST were owner caused problems (Who actually THOUGHT they were
excellent experienced owners!!)
On another thought, In a fenced yard (which a knowlegable RESPONSIBLE
owner would have), a dog wouldn't have a problem wandering
off.................................
There are a lot of things in your post suggested that would make you NOT
pass muster that I would not want to place a dog in your home.
I don't say this out of disrespect. I think there are some things that
you need to understand, and now expect I will get stuck in your kill
file, but I don't really care.
diddy
WhansaMi
Melinda, well, remember, I have Cavaliers, which are, in my experience, the
"softest" dogs I've ever met.
Sheila
Lisa Baird
> THe person had paid for the dog. When it didn't work out cause of what the
> buyer did, I can easily see why. First, because it was the buyer who was
> the problem, not the dog. Second, because why would they want to give
> another dog to a buyer who obviously didn't know how to care for the dog?
>
When I was breeding, my contract called for me to have first right on the dog
should the buyers get rid of it, and stated that I would pay up to 1/2 the
purchase price.
One assumes, when getting it back, you have a good bit of work to put into it
to make it your own house dog, or placeable as a family pet to another
household.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Lisa Baird - Haleakala PWDs
"Truly" - CH Fantaseas Truly Scrumptious, CD, AAD, AX, NAJ
"Havoc" - Stargazer Come Hell'R HiWater (puppy with promise!)
Wiley MAD, SM, JM, RM - Beloved All American
Buckeye Region Agility Group <http://www.bragagility.com/>
PAWZitive Beginnings Dog Training <http://www.PAWZitiveBeginnings.com>
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Lisa Baird
There ARE nasty dogs, no doubt. But, most of us here have seen more owners who
mishandled dogs, than "bad" dogs.
I am NOT saying it's your "fault", as in you deliberately mishandled the
situation, but when dogs actually get to a bite, especially of a child, it's
rarely "out of the blue". Herding breeds DO tend to want to keep "their" flock
together, and that includes people leaving the property.
I've seen a couple of references to obedience classes. One seemed to say you
took her for 2 or 3 weeks, another that you went 2-3 times EACH week. Just
curious as to how much obedience training you actually had? (these public
classes are for the owners, really <g> Then you go home and work the dog).
Muffy was about a year old when the bites occurred? Were you still enrolled in
classes (I recommend until dogs are about 18-24 mos. old, hopefully some sort
of organized class activity longer)? Did you speak with the trainer after the
first time?
I'm sorry this didn't work out for you. But I have to tell you, I've seen many
Beardies in my classes, and they are all delightful. I'm not saying you
couldn't have had a "lemon", but you can't condemn an entire breed because of
it.
--
Lisa Baird
> In article <20020316080630...@mb-cv.aol.com>,
> WhansaMi <whan...@aol.com> wrote:
> >Tricia, of course, you are right about all dogs needing more, but, like you, I
> >think that relatively speaking, the Beardie needs more than the average.
>
> I think I've heard that said about every breed.
I say it about mine. <G> And YOURS Melinda, having had a Siberian, for over 13
years myself. ; >
Lisa Baird
> Owning and training a dog is a lifestyle.
Boy is it ever! Hubby is still trying to figure out when he lost control
of life. <G>
Dave McKay
"diddy" <di...@nospam.diddy.net> wrote in message
news:3C9345D0...@nospam.diddy.net...
> You know i have taken in MANY MANY rescue dogs that had terrible
> problems that fixed in a week to a month. If they FIX.. It's not a
> temperament problem. It's an OWNER problem. (I know you won't accept
> this is the case)
I guess we'll never know since the breeder refuses to tell us the status of
Muffy. If the breeder has put the dog down, she should refund our money.
Maybe that's why she won't tell us?
.
>
> I have rarely ever seen a dog who ACTUALLY HAD a temperament problem.
Health problems can cause temperament problems. Our friends had to put their
Collie down. Turns out it developed a brain tumor. Dog became very
aggressive. Maybe Muffy developed one too. Again, the breeder won't tell us
anything.
> MOST were owner caused problems (Who actually THOUGHT they were
> excellent experienced owners!!)
Well, we have had a Sheltie for 7 years who hasn't bit anybody (it was a
rescue dog, by the way!) I think that makes us experienced.
> There are a lot of things in your post suggested that would make you NOT
> pass muster that I would not want to place a dog in your home.
Such as? Call our vet and she'll strongly disagree with you.
> I don't say this out of disrespect. I think there are some things that
> you need to understand, and now expect I will get stuck in your kill
> file, but I don't really care.
What do we need to understand? We did everything possible to prepare and
educate ourselves for a beardie.
Dave McKay
"
> ANY dog needs more than 2 weeks training. Geez, that's like assuming that
> because a kid learns to crawl, you are all done and the kid can now go out
and
> earn a living and function in the world. BUT a Beardie is right up at the
top
> of the list as a dog that needs lots of training. The OP said they had 2
weeks
> of obed. class. That's not even realistic for the most novice and naive of
dog
> owners. A dog needs lifelong training.
That's ridiculous.
If a dog needs expensive "lifelong" professional obedience training, nobody
would ever buy a dog. Who could afford the constant lessons? You'd have to
take a second job!
Dave McKay
""> How long did she go to classes?
2 weeks. 3-4 times a week
> Did both adults in the house go with her?
Yes
> What did you learn with her?
Everything that the professional trainer thought was important with
Beardies.
> Did you tell your instructor when you still had problems?
No. Problems started many months after the lessons. Biting incidents were
close together, and we couldn't risk another neighborhood child getting bit
or mauled.
> How old was she when she went?
I'd guess about 9 months.
> In between classes, what sort of practice did you do?
Everything the obedience trainer told us to. Perhaps we got a bad trainer.
But, she seemed concerned and thorough.
Dave McKay
> The OP said that she went to 2 or 3 weeks of classes, up to three times a
week.
> I can't remember the exact wording, but, as I remember it, this was
shortly
> after she was brought home, which of course, meant puppy training.
Approx. 9 months old for the classes. Puppy? Ok. But the breeder didn't
frown on it.
Muffy starting biting people at 14 months. Still a puppy? But, for a 14
month old dog to start biting severely is a little alarming, don't you
think?
> this is not sufficient training, especially for a breed whose temperament
tends
> toward the dominant.
Too bad the breeder didn't tell us it was insufficient.
So, yes, I think the owner has to take some
> responsibility for how the dog turned out. Sorry, Dave.
So, you're saying that just because that Muffy had insufficient training,
that caused 12 stitches for the UPS man?
Wow, I wish the books and the breeder would have told us how crucially
important that lessons were to avoid a mauling dog. They didn't. Shelties
don't have that drawback!
Melinda Shore
Dave McKay <A52...@att.net> wrote:
>Health problems can cause temperament problems. Our friends had to put their
>Collie down. Turns out it developed a brain tumor. Dog became very
>aggressive. Maybe Muffy developed one too. Again, the breeder won't tell us
>anything.
It's very, very unlikely.
We only know what you've told us, but a bunch of us here
have long experience with dogs and a lot of experience with
rescue dogs. Health problems can cause aggressive behavior
(did you have your vet do a thyroid check?) and on rare
occasion there's a dog that simply insane, but it's usually
the case that the sort of problem you've described is caused
by mismanagement and poor training. Your dog didn't get
very much training, frankly, and with more work with a good
trainer things could have turned out very, very differently.
WhansaMi
>week.
>> I can't remember the exact wording, but, as I remember it, this was
>shortly
>> after she was brought home, which of course, meant puppy training.
>
>Approx. 9 months old for the classes. Puppy? Ok. But the breeder didn't
>frown on it.
>Muffy starting biting people at 14 months. Still a puppy? But, for a 14
>month old dog to start biting severely is a little alarming, don't you
>think?
What did you do after the first bite? Did you resume training? Did you consult
a behaviorist?
>
>> this is not sufficient training, especially for a breed whose temperament
>tends
>> toward the dominant.
>
>Too bad the breeder didn't tell us it was insufficient.
>
> So, yes, I think the owner has to take some
>> responsibility for how the dog turned out. Sorry, Dave.
>
>So, you're saying that just because that Muffy had insufficient training,
>that caused 12 stitches for the UPS man?
>Wow, I wish the books and the breeder would have told us how crucially
>important that lessons were to avoid a mauling dog. They didn't. Shelties
>don't have that drawback!
Know thy breed.
Sheila
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
diddy
Firstly, Training is a lifestyle.. it never quits.
Secondly, you are assuming that a TRAINER is being paid to do that
lifelong training.. Wrong again.
YOU do the training. The trainer teaches YOU how.. and it's YOU that
teaches the DOG.
Melinda Shore
Lisa Baird <agi...@columbus.rr.com> wrote:
>I say it about mine. <G> And YOURS Melinda, having had a Siberian, for over 13
>years myself. ; >
They're fun to work with. But actually I never felt that
Greta, my Newf/Collie x needed a lot of formal training.
She came to me as an adult with some behavioral problems
(housetraining, chewing) that were relatively easy to fix
and other than that was a quick, clever learner who was
happy to work for praise and pets. *Very* different from
the Sibes and from the terriers we had when I was growing
up.
Melinda Shore
Lisa Baird <agi...@columbus.rr.com> wrote:
>Boy is it ever! Hubby is still trying to figure out when he lost control
>of life. <G>
Last year someone posted something really funny to one of
the mushing mailing lists about how the dogs had gradually
taken over her life, and when her husband asked how many
dogs they had (18) she said "eight," and he took her word
for it. By the time she had 24 he stopped asking and
started spending more time in his wood shop.
diddy
> Muffy starting biting people at 14 months. Still a puppy? But, for a 14
> month old dog to start biting severely is a little alarming, don't you
> think?
What did you do to teach Muffy bite inhibition?
What did you do to teach Muffy that chasing people would NOT be
tolerated (It's normal for a herding breed to nip/bite and try to herd..
especially young children)
What effort did you take to guide Muffy into understanding that even the
lowest/youngest member of the family was higher than she was in the pack
order and off limits from being herded and nipped?
> Shelties don't have that drawback!
Perhaps your next dog should be an older sheltie with an established
behavior and already proven good with children, that has had the
preliminary manners and structure already provided as in a rescue dog?
Dave McKay
"
> Your dog went to an obedience class: did she learn "leave it"? "Stay?" "No
> dogs", so she wouldn't go through any open door? Was the dog loose in your
> yard when someone opened the gate to deliver a package, or did she just
> burst through an open front door?
Yes, we thought it was a good school. Muffy bit the UPS man in our front
foyer in front of my wife.
>
> >or why, after the first bite, something wasn't done to
> >> supervise her.
>
> >We did, but like children, you can't supervise them 24/7.
>
> Um, if she is not trained, then yes, you have to. You may not supervise a
> 15 year old kid 24/7, but I bet you supervised your kid as a baby much
> more carefully. And if there was a situation that was too much for kid, I
> bet you kept your kid away from it. Which is what you have to do when you
> have a dog and deliveries to your house.
Perhaps with a beardie, but not a sheltie, or a lab or most any other kind
of dog.
>
> >hardly. We're very experienced. And if a dog has to extract 12 stitches
from
> >a delivery man to "protect her territory", and that's not a defective
dog,
> >then nobody should ever own a dog for safety reasons!
>
> I'd like to hear more about that...was she out in the yard? Or did she
> burst through the front door to nail the delivery person?
See above.
> >Maybe we should. But we are NOT first time owners. And beardies were
> >supposed to be good with children.
>
> Said who?
Numerous dog books.
>>I don't think that most herding dogs are good with kids
That's debatable. I happen to disagree.
>Herding dogs
> are often not tolerant of kids running around and screaming: they wind up
> nipping the kids to keep the herd in line. Kid screams louder, bite gets
> harder.
Perhaps without any obedience training. I agree.
Dave McKay
"
> There ARE nasty dogs, no doubt. But, most of us here have seen more owners
who
> mishandled dogs, than "bad" dogs.
Ok, fair enough.
>
> I am NOT saying it's your "fault", as in you deliberately mishandled the
> situation, but when dogs actually get to a bite, especially of a child,
it's
> rarely "out of the blue". Herding breeds DO tend to want to keep "their"
flock
> together, and that includes people leaving the property.
I guess we had a "out of the blue" situation.
>
> I've seen a couple of references to obedience classes. One seemed to say
you
> took her for 2 or 3 weeks, another that you went 2-3 times EACH week. Just
> curious as to how much obedience training you actually had?
Exactly as stated above. Please re-read closer.
(these public
> classes are for the owners, really <g> Then you go home and work the dog).
We did go home and "work the dog"
> Muffy was about a year old when the bites occurred? Were you still
enrolled in
> classes
No.
(I recommend until dogs are about 18-24 mos. old, hopefully some sort
> of organized class activity longer)?
Who could ever afford that? You'd need to take a second job!
Did you speak with the trainer after the
> first time?
no. spoke to the breeder instead. Not much help.
>
> I'm sorry this didn't work out for you. But I have to tell you, I've seen
many
> Beardies in my classes, and they are all delightful. I'm not saying you
> couldn't have had a "lemon", but you can't condemn an entire breed because
of
> it.
You're right. I shouldn't do that. A broken heart and now anger with the
breeder's unprofessionalism have taken over.
Dave McKay
"Lisa Baird" <agi...@columbus.rr.com> wrote in message
news:3C93503F...@columbus.rr.com...
> diddy wrote:
>
> > Owning and training a dog is a lifestyle.
>
> Boy is it ever! Hubby is still trying to figure out when he lost control
> of life. <G>
ROFL!
Lisa Baird
> ""> How long did she go to classes?
>
> 2 weeks. 3-4 times a week
>
Okay, I'm thinking this ws the beginning of a problem right here. Going two to
three times a week, really isn't needed. Once a week, for a 7-9 week session is
much more valuable. (I don't think I've ever heard of cramming all lessons in a
two week period before). This means you go to class, the instructor watches the
owners and dogs interact, gives you the lessons, you go home and work for a
week. The next week, you review, figure out where you went wrong with what you
THOUGHT you ere supposed to be doing <g>, and so on.
> Everything that the professional trainer thought was important with
> Beardies.
>
I'm getting an icky feeling here... did you go to one of those horribly
expensive private dog training "businesses", that teaches you quick force
training? Those places suck a lot of people in. Folks think because they are
paying so much, it must be better than the local obedience club group classes.
Usually not the case. (not to say ALL obedience club classes are great, but they
don't have so much invested in getting QUICK results, regardless of method)
Dave McKay
> >I suppose I could see them giving the money back in such a situation, but
> >I definitely see and support them not giving another animal to the buyer.
> >And really, if it was the buyer's problem, why should the breeder have to
> >give the money back? They sold a perfectly good dog, and now they have to
> >spend more money trying to place it again.
>
> Well, sort of. My advice in mediating breeder/buyer disputes is to always,
> no matter what, return the full purchase price. If it costs $1,000 or
> whatever the puppy cost to get the buyer to leave the breeder alone, it is
> money well spent. It is scary to me how often people will not return the
> money, simply because they do not have it. That's not good.
We're beginning to think that Muffy had a health problem (brain tumor?) and
the breeder put her down and now won't tell us anything because she would
then have to give the money back.
>
> Again, we're not hearing both sides, but if the breeder took back the
> puppy and the buyer is still not happy and is possibly litigious, my
> advice to the breeder would have been to write a check for the full puppy
> price and turn it over. End of story, end of problems.
Wouldn't that be nice?
Twzl, Sligo and Roy Happy Together
>""> How long did she go to classes?
>2 weeks. 3-4 times a week
That's not very long at all. Even a basic puppy class will run for 8
weeks. You go once a week. In between you should be practicing every day.
What I tell my students is that your dog should be able to hold a down
stay and not be a PITA, while you watch TV. Let the dog up during
commercials and back down again during the show. Dogs who are unable to
settle, because they don't know what you want, or dogs who growl at their
owners, often straighten right up.
>Everything that the professional trainer thought was important with
>Beardies.
So this trainer owns Beardies? What has she done with hers?
>> Did you tell your instructor when you still had problems?
>No. Problems started many months after the lessons. Biting incidents were
>close together, and we couldn't risk another neighborhood child getting bit
>or mauled.
So why didn't you call this professional trainer and go back to classes?
>> In between classes, what sort of practice did you do?
>Everything the obedience trainer told us to. Perhaps we got a bad trainer.
>But, she seemed concerned and thorough.
Who knows: I never heard of anyone thinking a dog would be fully trained
after two weeks though.
Ann, Twzl, Sligo and Roy
--
Twzl, Sligo and Roy Happy Together
>Approx. 9 months old for the classes. Puppy? Ok. But the breeder didn't
>frown on it.
That's actually very old to start out classes with a breed that can be
reactive or a problem with outsiders. Did she suggest that you go to puppy
kindergarten?
FWIW I see people who don't think they need to train their puppy. So they
finally show up for classes at 9 or 10 or 11 mnths with a physically
mature dog, mentally a basketcase dog. These dogs often can't function at
first in a group class: they haven't seen other dogs in months.
>Muffy starting biting people at 14 months. Still a puppy? But, for a 14
She was a puppy at 14 months, yes.
>month old dog to start biting severely is a little alarming, don't you
>think?
No. It's very typical: she was reaching maturity, and with no one in
charge she took the job.
>So, you're saying that just because that Muffy had insufficient training,
>that caused 12 stitches for the UPS man?
Yes. This was a dog who should have had early puppy training, and
continuing training until she was at least a year old. You invested all of
two weeks into training her.
>Wow, I wish the books and the breeder would have told us how crucially
>important that lessons were to avoid a mauling dog. They didn't. Shelties
>don't have that drawback!
Sure they do: lots of them in rescue. Why? They snapped at the kids.
Dave McKay
"
> We only know what you've told us, but a bunch of us here
> have long experience with dogs and a lot of experience with
> rescue dogs. Health problems can cause aggressive behavior
> (did you have your vet do a thyroid check?)
We were hoping that our breeder would thoroughly have Muffy checked out with
her vet. It was never agreed that we were giving Muffy back permanently. A
one year old beardie in a loving home who bites severely is rare, don't you
think?
>and on rare
> occasion there's a dog that simply insane, but it's usually
> the case that the sort of problem you've described is caused
> by mismanagement and poor training. Your dog didn't get
> very much training, frankly, and with more work with a good
> trainer things could have turned out very, very differently.
Perhaps. Lots of scenarios are possible. One thing is certain and that is
the dog was loved greatly and wasn't abused in any way.
Doesn't say much for the breed, does it? If you don't get proper and
voluminous training, the dog will naturally maul little kids and delivery
men. Jeez, pit bulls can do better than that!
Alice Cabrera
: That's ridiculous.
: If a dog needs expensive "lifelong" professional obedience training, nobody
: would ever buy a dog. Who could afford the constant lessons? You'd have to
: take a second job!
The lessons are there to teach you how to train the dog. To keep a dog
well trained you always have to make sure you tell it when he is doing the
right thing and when he is doing the wrong thing. You have to keep telling
the dog what you want and knowing the signs of what he might be leaning
towards. Those expensive lessons are not supposed to be forever, they are
supposed to teach you how to train the dog and then you are supposed to go
from there. Most people who research dogs learn this pretty quickly, it's
nmot a secret fact.
Alice
--
The root cause of problems is simple overpopulation. People just aren't
worth very much any more, and they know it. Makes 'em testy. ...Bev
|\ _,,,---,,_ Tigress
/,`.-'`' -. ;-;;,_ http://havoc.gtf.gatech.edu/tigress
|,4- ) )-,_..;\ ( `'-' tig...@havoc.gtf.gatech.edu
'---''(_/--' `-'\_) Cat by Felix Lee.
Twzl, Sligo and Roy Happy Together
>> dogs", so she wouldn't go through any open door? Was the dog loose in your
>> yard when someone opened the gate to deliver a package, or did she just
>> burst through an open front door?
>Yes, we thought it was a good school. Muffy bit the UPS man in our front
>foyer in front of my wife.
Right: What command did Muffy know so as to not run to the front door to
bite people? Did she know "leave it"? "stay"? "Go lie down"? Anything?
Could your wife, if she wanted to, have told Muffy to go lie down in the
corner and not move?
>> bet you kept your kid away from it. Which is what you have to do when you
>> have a dog and deliveries to your house.
>Perhaps with a beardie, but not a sheltie, or a lab or most any other kind
>of dog.
Sure you do. Many delivery people HATE dogs. All dogs need a no dogs
command, or something that allows you to open up the front door, and keep
the dog a good 10 or 20 feet back from that point.
>>>I don't think that most herding dogs are good with kids
>That's debatable. I happen to disagree.
Well, you're the one who has a herding dog who bit two people.
>>Herding dogs
>> are often not tolerant of kids running around and screaming: they wind up
>> nipping the kids to keep the herd in line. Kid screams louder, bite gets
>> harder.
>Perhaps without any obedience training. I agree.
Which describes your ex-dog.
Melinda Shore
Dave McKay <A52...@att.net> wrote:
>We're beginning to think that Muffy had a health problem (brain tumor?) and
>the breeder put her down and now won't tell us anything because she would
>then have to give the money back.
This is very, very, very unlikely.
None of us know you and vice versa - what's your investment
in trying to convince us that you had no responsibility
whatsoever for how things ended?
Twzl, Sligo and Roy Happy Together
>We're beginning to think that Muffy had a health problem (brain tumor?) and
>the breeder put her down and now won't tell us anything because she would
>then have to give the money back.
Please: You totally abdicated your responsibility for training this dog.
BTW, my other favorites are dogs who wind up dysplastic. Buyer screams
about the bad awful breeder. Dog goes back to breeder. Dog weighs 125
pounds or more at 10 months...
Melinda Shore
Dave McKay <A52...@att.net> wrote:
>We were hoping that our breeder would thoroughly have Muffy checked out with
>her vet. It was never agreed that we were giving Muffy back permanently. A
>one year old beardie in a loving home who bites severely is rare, don't you
>think?
Yes, but when it happens it's not usually the result of
health problems. BTW, thyroid problems can come on very
suddenly (I have one dog that tested okay and then two months
later tested hypothyroid). It's always (always always
always) a good idea to take the dog to a vet when there's a
behavioral change. If there was an untreated thyroid
problem or some other health-related problem (again, not
very likely), it was your responsibility as the dog's owner
to get it taken care of.
>Doesn't say much for the breed, does it? If you don't get proper and
>voluminous training, the dog will naturally maul little kids and delivery
>men. Jeez, pit bulls can do better than that!
Pit bulls are friendly, happy dogs with an undeserved
bad-ass reputation. I think you're blaming the breed too
much. Regardless of breed, if your dog doesn't respect you
and thinks she's above you in the pack hierarchy, she's
going to act to protect her position if she believes you're
threatening it. Lots of us live with dominant dogs who
don't bite - it's a training issue. And it's not a question
of endless training, it's a question of good training and
appropriate day-to-day interactions with the dog.
Lisa Baird
> much. Regardless of breed, if your dog doesn't respect you
> and thinks she's above you in the pack hierarchy, she's
> going to act to protect her position if she believes you're
> threatening it. Lots of us live with dominant dogs who
> don't bite - it's a training issue. And it's not a question
Even worse, IME, are the dogs that are NOT dominant, but feel that no one else
in the family is willing to be "pack leader" and they grudgingly take the task
on. Insecure dogs in an alpha position worry me even more than dominant ones!
WhansaMi
>>voluminous training, the dog will naturally maul little kids and delivery
>>men. Jeez, pit bulls can do better than that!
>
>Pit bulls are friendly, happy dogs with an undeserved
>bad-ass reputation. I think you're blaming the breed too
>much. Regardless of breed, if your dog doesn't respect you
>and thinks she's above you in the pack hierarchy, she's
>going to act to protect her position if she believes you're
>threatening it. Lots of us live with dominant dogs who
>don't bite - it's a training issue. And it's not a question
>of endless training, it's a question of good training and
>appropriate day-to-day interactions with the dog.
>--
> Melinda Shore - Software longa,
That was my point, too. Each time we've started to look for a new addition,
I've played with the idea of getting some of the more "dominant" breeds. There
are many that I think, aesthetically, are wonderful, and, depending on the
breed, some of their temperament/behavioral characteristics are very pleasing.
But, I know **ME**. I know I am not the type to deal well with a dog vying
with to be alpha. I also know that I don't have a lot of time to spend in
training the dog, and reinforcing that training. So, I discarded the idea of
getting some of the breeds I liked in other ways.
Sheila
TD Yandt
> If a dog needs expensive "lifelong" professional obedience training, nobody
> would ever buy a dog. Who could afford the constant lessons? You'd have to
> take a second job!
I don't think anyone here means that for the entire life of a dog you (not
meaning you specifically) have to be taking them to see a professional. But
you do need to be constantly training. I'm not a professional trainer, but I
do training sessions with my dogs EVERY day. It reminds them that I'm in
charge, and also helps to build up their confidence. They love to train. *s*
--
Lots of Love & Blessings, From TD.
Hu-mom to Nico, Misty, and Thunder
http://www.artbytd.com/ http://ChihuahuaLovers.com/
http://www.community.webshots.com/user/conte_crayon/
I held Thunders head as he crossed the bridge on Oct 31/01,
he is loved and well remembered, now young and cancer free.
TD Yandt
> Wow, I wish the books and the breeder would have told us how crucially
> important that lessons were to avoid a mauling dog. They didn't. Shelties
> don't have that drawback!
I am disappointed in the breeder you chose. They do not sound to me like a
responsible breeder (reputable does not mean responsible). They should have
been sure that you could handle this dog before selling Muffy to you. And
they should have continued to give you support through out Muffys life time.
Yes, some blame also falls to you, for picking the breeder, and for not
seeking help elsewhere when the breeder refused to advise you. But I do think
the ultimate blame has to fall to the breeder in this case... she/he should
have ensured that you would be able to handle this dog, and should have been
there to provide the support and knowledge you obviously lacked.
Terrie Strike
>(I recommend until dogs are about 18-24 mos. old, hopefully some sort
>> of organized class activity longer)?
>
>Who could ever afford that? You'd need to take a second job!
Huh? Training is part of the cost of owning a dog. This includes time and
money. Those dogs you admire in public, or on tv or in shows... They all had
training. It seems to me that part of the problem is that you failed to
research everything related to dog ownership. That is, not just breed traits,
but what would be required of you as an owner. If you can't afford to train
your dog, get a cat instead.
-Terrie
TD Yandt
> > >We did, but like children, you can't supervise them 24/7.
> >
> > Um, if she is not trained, then yes, you have to. You may not supervise a
> > 15 year old kid 24/7, but I bet you supervised your kid as a baby much
> > more carefully. And if there was a situation that was too much for kid, I
> > bet you kept your kid away from it. Which is what you have to do when you
> > have a dog and deliveries to your house.
>
> Perhaps with a beardie, but not a sheltie, or a lab or most any other kind
> of dog.
With any untrained, or not fully trained, dog. It has nothing to do with the
breed. If your dog will not obey a "leave it" (refering to the delivery
person) and a "down"... then yes... you have to do what ever you have to do to
keep your dog away from the situation it can't handle. We have a gate up in
our house that keeps our dogs away from the front door. Nico is afraid of
strangers and is very reactive, Misty just wants to get in there and cuddle
with them. Both receive daily training, but new people at our front door is
THE most difficult situation for them to handle... both loose control still (in
different ways)... both will still receive daily training until this is no
longer an issue... and then they will still receive daily training but
focusing on other things.
diddy
>
> We were hoping that our breeder would thoroughly have Muffy checked out with
> her vet. It was never agreed that we were giving Muffy back permanently. A
> one year old beardie in a loving home who bites severely is rare, don't you
> think?
>
year old range.
Firstly, they aren't cute little fuzzballs anymore. They are large
enough that behavior tolerated as a puppy, isn't cute any more, and
actually downright dangerous.
The dogs were kept long enough that they thought the dog would outgrow
the puppy antics that were never (or at least "properly") discouraged in
the cute puppy stage.
They think spoiling a dog constitutes "LOVE".
By the time the puppy that never was trained NOT to do those cute little
puppy things has grown to an awesome size, and out of control, The
family FINALLY decides to do something about their young juvenile
delinquent... usually giving it up.
No.. Not unusual at all.
One thing is certain and that is
> the dog was loved greatly and wasn't abused in any way.
*ERK* See above in the LOVED statement
>
> Doesn't say much for the breed, does it? If you don't get proper and
> voluminous training, the dog will naturally maul little kids and delivery
> men. Jeez, pit bulls can do better than that!
Doesn't say anything about the breed. Says a lot about its owners. This
would not be the first such dog. Shelters and pounds overflow with all
kinds (INCLUDING SHELTIES AND LABS.. Check Labs in regard to dog bite
statistics!!!) with aggression problems due to a family not having a
clue how to properly raise a puppy.
Jen
agressive biter, but a play-time biter -- he spent a year at Best Friends
Sanctuary in Utah being retrained and socialized -- my guess is just what
diddy mentioned below -- he was an adorable puppy who was never trained and
once he hit 60 pounds his owners sent him to the shelter where he was almost
put down.
I feel extra fortunate that someone took the energy and time to give Jersey
another chance at life. And yes, because he was a biter I have constant work
ahead of me -- he and I work together everyday and he is improving, and I do
have to supervise him around people. I'm OK with that. I am blessed to have
him in my life.
I just can't believe condemning an entire breed because of one experience.
dog's are a lifetime commitment -- training, socializing, health and love...
"diddy" <di...@nospam.diddy.net> wrote in message
news:3C9364ED...@nospam.diddy.net...
Jkpoulos7
>of ONE dog and based on that you condemn the entire breed.
>
Well bred dogs of many breeds do share an amazing amount of characteristics. I
am constantly amazed to hear other Ridgeback owners say " my dog did this ..."
and I think or say " mine does the same thing" so dogs within a breed share
character traits.
>The breeder did the right thing in taking the dog back.
>
But he/she kept the money. So now the breeder has $800 plus a dog he/ she can
sell again . That's a good deal. A reputable breeder would have refunded money
(or a percentage) to ease hard feelings and not get badmouthed on usenet.
dianne marie schoenberg
>But he/she kept the money. So now the breeder has $800 plus a dog he/she
>can sell again . That's a good deal.
You're making a common mistake. We are accustomed to
thinking of items that are sold as either appreciating
(i.e., buy a house for $100K, sell it later for $150K)
or depreciating (buy a car for $10K, sell it in two
years for $7K).
Dogs sort of defy that pattern. Dogs have their
maximum financial value at about 8 weeks of age
and depreciate so rapidly afterwards it's not
funny. A puppy that sells for $800 may be worse
than useless a few months later--you may not be
able to find anyone to take him/her off your
hands even for free.
In particular, a dog with a history of biting is
*not* an asset--it is a liability. (Think of the
potential lawsuits and you'll see why.) Regardless
of whether or not this dog can be rehabbed enough
to be placed in another home--a big if--the breeder
is going to be out care expenses (vet bill, food,
training) and time. As anyone who does rescue knows,
it's difficult to get enough to even recoup expenses
on such a dog.
I agree with those who have already said that it
would be foolhardy to come to a judgement about
this particular situation based on having heard
only one side of the story. However I must point
out that the breeder is more likely to lose money
than to make money on having taken back this dog,
and therefore the breeder's willingness to take
back this dog *is* a point in his/her favor.
JFWIW,
Dianne
kuranes
Dave McKay wrote:
>
> We did, but like children, you can't supervise them 24/7.
You can't?! That's a new one.
Maybe we should. But we are NOT first time owners. And beardies were
> supposed to be good with children.
With training, yes. 2-3 weeks of obedience training (which I believe you said
is the only thing you did) doesn't sound like it really cut it.
Cari
kuranes
Dave McKay wrote:
>
> (I recommend until dogs are about 18-24 mos. old, hopefully some sort
> > of organized class activity longer)?
>
> Who could ever afford that? You'd need to take a second job!
If you can't afford that then why are you getting a dog in the first place? Can
you afford vet bills? Food?
Cari
Lee Ann Rucker
<gaJk8.14817$Ex5.1...@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net>, Dave
McKay <A52...@att.net> wrote:
>
> (I recommend until dogs are about 18-24 mos. old, hopefully some sort
> > of organized class activity longer)?
>
> Who could ever afford that? You'd need to take a second job!
Huh? I'm in a basic group class, one lesson per week for 8 weeks,
about $120 total - I spend more than that at Starbucks.
Once I've done the basic classes, I may go into agility, and I expect
to spend more on that - but basic sit-stay-socialize? It's not that
expensive.
Stephanie Gelman
news:160320021139474510%lru...@mac.com...
> Huh? I'm in a basic group class, one lesson per week for 8 weeks,
> about $120 total - I spend more than that at Starbucks.
>
Likewise - around here in Southwestern CT most classes range in price from
about $90 to $120 and last anywhere from 7 to 9 weeks. You can't find a
much more expensive part of the US to live in and there are people that live
around here that would (and could) gladly pay more than double that for
their "designer dogs" to get trained.
We aren't exactly "rolling in the dough," if you know what I mean, so I got
recommendations and "shopped around". It turns out that one of the classes
that was suggested to me is offered by a local KC and was the cheapest cost
($90) for the most classes (7).
--
Steph Gelman
(and Callie)
http://photos.yahoo.com/StephG72
AussieGoldenLuv
don't you think? >>
A self-righteous owner giving an untrained and probably unsocialized dog the
opportunity to bite, that's alarming. Unfortunately it happens every day, and
perfectly wonderful dogs lose their life as a result.
<< Too bad the breeder didn't tell us it was insufficient. >>
If you'd done your research, as you claim you did, then you'd know that for
working dogs you need more than one obedience class, starting at puppyhood and
stretching through adolescence. You would have understood that herding breeds
are high prey drive and are also known for being guardians, thus more care
needs given to their training.
That you say the bites were "out of the blue" shows just how clueless you are.
Your dog was giving you plenty of signals before that bite, but because you
were too cheap to invest in a couple more training classes (especially after
the first bite) you missed it.
<< So, you're saying that just because that Muffy had insufficient training,
that caused 12 stitches for the UPS man? >>
Nobody can say for sure, since we didn't see the dog in person. But based on
breed knowledge and the comments you've made, yes, TRAINING AND MANAGEMENT
could have prevented the situation. With a bite history the dog should never
have been given access to the UPS man.
<< Shelties don't have that drawback! >>
Every dog has the ability to bite.
Hope
proud mom to rescues:
Shyraphic Shanayagan, 1 leg HCT, CGC
Shyraphic Shining Light
TO...@dog-play.com
>>This is a description
>>of ONE dog and based on that you condemn the entire breed.
>>
> Well bred dogs of many breeds do share an amazing amount of characteristics. I
> am constantly amazed to hear other Ridgeback owners say " my dog did this ..."
> and I think or say " mine does the same thing" so dogs within a breed share
> character traits.
Yes, there are breed characteristics. But the fact that ONE dog presents a
particular behavior is no evidence at all that the dog is presenting a
breed characteristic.
>>The breeder did the right thing in taking the dog back.
>>
> But he/she kept the money. So now the breeder has $800 plus a dog he/ she can
No, the dog may have been purchased for such sum, but it had no value when
given up. It was not placeable. If you buy a Cadalliac and after a year it
no longer runs it doesn't matter whether the cause is manufacturing defect
or owner neglect the result is a vehicle worth a pitance. Its value is
determined only upon what someone would pay for it in its present
condition. Assuming the story is true dog was a liability, not a monetary
benefit.
> sell again . That's a good deal. A reputable breeder would have refunded money
> (or a percentage) to ease hard feelings and not get badmouthed on usenet.
A responsible breeder cares more about the dog than the rumour mill.
People judging the breeder based only on hearing one side of the story are
such shallow thinkers that they aren't worth worrying about. No one can
fairly judge either side based on hearing only one side.
It is extremely unlikely that the breeder will get much money, if any, for
the dog. A responsible Beardie breeder is not going to allow into society
a Beardie that is unreasonably aggressive. That is what the OP complained
of - and that the problem was innate to the dog. IF that is true then the
dog will most certainly not be sold.
If the problem is not the innate temperament of the dog but its upbringing
then the breeder will be spending resources on trying to overcome that
problem. That is assuming that the breeder believes the dog is redeemable.
Based on the story the breeder would be taking tremendous liabilty risks
if the breeder even attempts to place this dog. The breeder did the right
thing in taking the dog back but it is very unlikely that the breeeder
benefitted in any way.
While the breeder did not gain in anyway, I think the lack of refund
likely reflects the breeders opinion that the fault was not innate to the
dog. Cadillac is not going to refund for damages caused by owner neglect
and neither should the breeder. Whether the breeder was right or wrong in
this we can't tell - we have only one side of the story and no dog to
evaluate for ourselves.
Diane Blackman
Alice Cabrera
: Well bred dogs of many breeds do share an amazing amount of characteristics. I
: am constantly amazed to hear other Ridgeback owners say " my dog did this ..."
: and I think or say " mine does the same thing" so dogs within a breed share
: character traits.
And then I can tell you about my golden retriever who would fight most any
male dogs and almost all dogs that look like him... should I say all
goldens are dog aggressive (you'll notice that is explicitly written
against in the breed standard)? I mean, it was one dog and he was a breed
so obviously others of his breed must share the same trait. There is no
such thing as dog individuality. They're all the same after all.
Alice Cabrera
: While the breeder did not gain in anyway, I think the lack of refund
: dog. Cadillac is not going to refund for damages caused by owner neglect
I think this is my point. And the more and more I read of the poster's
replies, the more and m ore my opinion lessons of him and I could easily
see why the breeder might not trust him with another dog.
Tigress
TO...@dog-play.com
> I guess we'll never know since the breeder refuses to tell us the status of
> Muffy. If the breeder has put the dog down, she should refund our money.
Why should she refund your money if she put the dog down? That decision
may be based entirely on the fact the dog has bitten twice, and once a
child. It may have no reflection whatsoever on the breeder's belief as to
the cause of the problem. Certainly it was the only choice you would have
had if you had not returned the dog. It was not placeable by you.
> Maybe that's why she won't tell us?
Liekly she decided that you gave up the right to know when you handed the
problem over to her to deal with instead of taking care of it yourself.
>> I have rarely ever seen a dog who ACTUALLY HAD a temperament problem.
> Health problems can cause temperament problems. Our friends had to put their
> Collie down. Turns out it developed a brain tumor. Dog became very
> aggressive. Maybe Muffy developed one too. Again, the breeder won't tell us
> anything.
Did YOU take the dog to be evaluated by a vet? Did YOU attempt to find
out if there were health causes? If not, why should the breeder? The
breeder knows here dogs and would, therefore, be reasonably certain it was
nothing in the breeding that created the problem. Why then should the
BREEDER be spending the money to determine the non-genetic cause? Its not
as if it matters to the disposition of the dog at that point. The
breeders obligation to investigate really is as to whether the problem is
genetic. Based on the availabel evidence I can't see why the breeder
would believe the problem to be genetic. Could it be? Yes. But to
honestly suspect it to be so would require more incidences with other dogs
in the line. We don't know of any such. I don't see any reason for the
breeeder to be spending money on a cause the breeder has no control over.
>> MOST were owner caused problems (Who actually THOUGHT they were
>> excellent experienced owners!!)
> Well, we have had a Sheltie for 7 years who hasn't bit anybody (it was a
> rescue dog, by the way!) I think that makes us experienced.
Sorry but a Sheltie is just not much in the way of preparation for a large
energetic dog like the Beardie.
Your experience with one dog is helpful, but limited.
You certainly needed more than six days worth of dog training classes.
Twice that many *might* be sufficient to teach you what you need to know -
but even then would only be effective if you continued to practice on a
regular basis on your own. For a lot of people this means simply working
"obedience" into everyday life, and often they get so used to it they
don't even notice. Eg. the the dog must sit and wait quietly while the
food is being prepared and must wait for permission before diving into the
bowl even after it is set on the ground. E.g. the dog must sit and wait
calmly and quietly while the collar and leash are attached prior to an
outing. E.g. the dog goes lots of differently places and sees lots of
different people and situations. But all too often people accommodate
their dogs instead of teaching them manners - and they too, are rarely
aware of it. The big advanatage of continuing to take obedience classes is
the opportunity to be deliberate about teaching of good manners.
I guess my biggest question is what steps were taken between the first
bite and the second.
Veterinary exams to evaluate blood hormomone levels? Presence of
neurological disease? Joint x-rays and manipulation to rule out joint
pain? Behaviorist to evaluate basic temperament? Additional training
with professional trainer to ensure steadiness and obedience? Was the
breeder contacted IMMEDIATELY after the first bite? Professional
evaluation to determine the cause and avoidence of the first problem?
In my experience there are dogs that have inate temperament problems.
In my experience it is far more common that there are owner problems. The
thing is that I don't know that even owner problems are mean "blame" in
the sense that one should feel guilt.
The one thing I can reasonably be certain about is that you are completly
sincere in your efforts to have prepared to have this dog competently.
Regardless of whether you were or you weren't actually prepared I believe
you did what was within YOUR ability to believe you were prepared. I
think a lot of what we, who are very experienced with dogs, take for
granted as obvious and "common sense" is neither obvious nor necessarily
common sense to those less involved with dogs. The way dogs are shown in
stories, tv, and the general media gives a very skewed image.
Studies have shown that some 63% of dogs are gone from their original home
after a mere two years. Most of the dogs we kill in shelters are under
two years old. THe majority of dogs killed in shelters are large
dogs. What these statistics should tell you is that you are not
alone in mistaking what it takes to successfully raise a large breed dog.
The one thing that most of those dogs in the shelters have in common?
Lack of formal obedience training. People don't do it mostly because
they don't see the need as critical. But it is.
Diane Blackman
TO...@dog-play.com
> <
>> That is about as poorly reasoned a post as I have seen in a long time.
> Sorry, our hearts are broken and after 10 months of being ignored by the
> breeder, we're angry.
I can understand how you feel.
But your credibilty depends upon whether you present yourself as able to
relate events fairly. Condemning an entire breed based on one experience
with one breeder is not a good way to establish your view as fairly
presented.
>> Do some breeders breed dogs of poor temperament? Yes. But (a) that is
>> no reason to condemn the entire breed and (b) there is zero evidence that
>> the problem was the innate temperament of the dog. This is a description
>> of ONE dog and based on that you condemn the entire breed.
> Ok, fair enough. I guess we got a lemon. But what if there is indeed
> improper inbreeding? Problems like ours will crop up in ever increasing
> frequency.
Yes, they will. And in some breeds they do. But nothing you have said
supports a conclusion that the dog "is a lemon." Or rather more to the
point - nothing suggests that the dog is a lemon because of poor breeding.
That doesn't mean it isn't - just there is nothing to support bad breeding
as the cause. Breeds, and their predictable characteristics, are created
by inbreeding. That is exactly how you get a whole line of dogs known for
their good temperament. So inbreeding in and of itself is not a problem.
Whether inbreeding on this particular line is a problem depends upon FIRST
evaluating whether there is an innate temperament problem. And you can't
do that based upon experience with a single dog (neither can the breeder)
- how many it takes depends upon many factors. It could be as few as two,
but not just one.
>> The breeder did the right thing in taking the dog back.
> We agree. The question is...what has happened to Muffy? Contract says that
> the breeder has to tell us what she does with the dog. Breeder hasn't lived
> up to that part of the contract.
If the contract says the breeder has to tell you then the breeder should
be telling you.
> They
>> were also owned by people who knew what a responsible breeder was and how
>> to evalauate one.
> So did we. Our breeder had a great reputation. And still does, according to
> e-mails I've just gotten.
Actually in your description you focussed on the breeders success in the
show ring, not on her qualities as a responsible breeder. A winnning
breeder and a responsible breeder may or may not be the same thing. Based
on my research I see no reason to condemn the responsibilities of this
breeder. But my point is that the qualities you mentioned were the
qualities of a breeder with a reputation (reputable breeder), and you
mentioned none of the qualities of a repsonible breeder (other than the
contract clause in which you returned the dog.) So while you may have
gotten a responsible breeder I'm not sure you even now know the qualities
of a responsible breeder. I'm not willing to condemn this breeder based
on your version of the events however, if I were to accept what you say as
true - a responsible breeder keeps in touch with their puppy buyers. a
responsible breeder actively asks for updates, and will insist, for
example, that they be told of any problems. The experienced responsible
breeder will go further and state things in a way that encourages
revalation of problems. Instead of "Is everything going OK?" They say
"Gee at that age I would have expected some puppy rebellion? Well maybe
she's just late in entering that stage. Nothing? Ha, well do be sure to
call me when it happens before you start tearing your hair out"
>> Whether your problems stemmed from a problem with the dog itself or the
>> way in which you raised and managed it is simply impossible to tell given
>> the lack of significant information.
> Ok, what more do YOU need to know? We bought books, and read them before we
> bought Muffy. We knew exactly what kind of dog we were getting. We took her
> to obedience school for weeks. We selected a nationally reputable breeder.
> We are experienced dog owners. We already had a herding dog, a sheltie. Both
> my wife and I have always had dogs since we were children. Our children are
> well behaved.
> WHAT MORE could we have possibly done to ensure a successful dog purchase?
Well, going to obedience school that lasted more than six days would have
been a good start. As for the rest of it.
How much time every day did the dog spend doing things away from your
property? Or weekly?
How much walking on leash did you do with the dog? Daily? Weekly?
Did the dog live in the house?
Could your dog have passed the Canine Good Citizen test? Can your
sheltie?
http://www.akc.org/love/cgc/testprocedures.cfm
Was the dog left unattended in a backyard for long periods (e.g. more than
a couple hours at a time)?
Was the dog in a position where neighborhood kids could cause the dog to
get excited?
What kind of activities did you do regularly with the dog that would both
engage its mind and get it working with you? Obedience? Tricks training?
Informal games? Agility? Herding? What kinds of things did you do in
which the dog would find following your leadership to be rewarding and
satisfying?
Too many people think of "obedience" only as a form of control - an
imposition of will on the dog rather than an exercise in leadership. If
the dog only "obeys" because it fears not to, rather than out of its
respect for the leader, then you really don't have a relationship that can
be counted on. The dog will only do what it is told not to do, rather
than behaving in a way so as to please its leader.
As I asked in another post what was done immediately after the first
biting incident? Consult with veterniarian? Complete medical workup?
Observation and consulation with behaviorist? Work with trainer? Change
in containment and control method?
> It doesn't really matter at this
>> point as regardless it was obviously the wrong dog for you.
> No, it was the right choice, just the victim of a bad example.
OK, I'm in no position to know one way or another.
Diane Blackman
TO...@dog-play.com
> "
>> We only know what you've told us, but a bunch of us here
>> have long experience with dogs and a lot of experience with
>> rescue dogs. Health problems can cause aggressive behavior
>> (did you have your vet do a thyroid check?)
> We were hoping that our breeder would thoroughly have Muffy checked out with
> her vet. It was never agreed that we were giving Muffy back permanently. A
> one year old beardie in a loving home who bites severely is rare, don't you
> think?
It is. But why should the breeder have Muffy checked by her vet? Why not
YOUR vet?
>>and on rare
>> occasion there's a dog that simply insane, but it's usually
>> the case that the sort of problem you've described is caused
>> by mismanagement and poor training. Your dog didn't get
>> very much training, frankly, and with more work with a good
>> trainer things could have turned out very, very differently.
> Perhaps. Lots of scenarios are possible. One thing is certain and that is
> the dog was loved greatly and wasn't abused in any way.
> Doesn't say much for the breed, does it? If you don't get proper and
> voluminous training, the dog will naturally maul little kids and delivery
> men. Jeez, pit bulls can do better than that!
What some people see as "voluminous" training, others see as just normal.
Like sending the kids to school.
TO...@dog-play.com
>> Um, if she is not trained, then yes, you have to. You may not supervise a
>> 15 year old kid 24/7, but I bet you supervised your kid as a baby much
>> more carefully. And if there was a situation that was too much for kid, I
>> bet you kept your kid away from it. Which is what you have to do when you
>> have a dog and deliveries to your house.
> Perhaps with a beardie, but not a sheltie, or a lab or most any other kind
> of dog.
Not true. Dog bites a a very big problem - for almost all breeds across
the board.
See this pdf (you need Adobe ACrobat to read it)
http://www.avma.org/press/dogbite/dogbite.pdf
if you have problems accessing it go to the main page at National Center
for Injury Prevention and Control at
http://www.cdc.gov/ncipc/duip/dogbite.htm
Rocky
(news:gaJk8.14817$Ex5.1...@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.n
et) wrote:
>> (I recommend until dogs are about 18-24 mos. old, hopefully
>> some sort
>> of organized class activity longer)?
>
> Who could ever afford that? You'd need to take a second
> job!
If you're willing to personally put a lot of dedicated time into
your dog, you can minimize the training expenses. A couple of 8
week training classes (at, say, 4-6 months and 12-18 months),
good books, knowledgable friends, and lots of socialisation will
get you a good distance.
--
--Matt. Rocky's a Dog.
Rocky
(news:a6vgop$fc2$1...@panix2.panix.com) wrote:
>>Tricia, of course, you are right about all dogs needing
>>more, but, like you, I think that relatively speaking, the
>>Beardie needs more than the average.
>
> I think I've heard that said about every breed.
Yup. Every breed has their own specific needs. I don't know
many Beardies (3), but all have been wonderful, especially the
young male in Friday's agility class.
If I was to generalise, I'd say that Bearded Collie owners
should emphasise the socialisation aspect of their training.
Rocky
(news:3C934695...@nospam.diddy.net) wrote:
> Owning and training a dog is a lifestyle.
More than that, in my case. Heh.
I moved to a new city a few years ago. I knew no one. Now, all
of my good friends are those I met because of my dogs. (If that
sounds pitiful, you're not a dog person ;)
Tara
Dave McKay wrote:
> Doesn't say much for the breed, does it? If you don't get proper and
> voluminous training, the dog will naturally maul little kids and delivery
> men. Jeez, pit bulls can do better than that!
Its statements like this that bring me right back to thinking you're a
troll of some sort.
Look, you keep on admitting that holding this incident against the whole
breed is silly.....and then you just keep right on doing it.
I don't know of a single trainer that thinks that *2* weeks of training
is sufficient......FOR ANY BREED. You don't have to actively "abuse" a
dog in order to be grossly insufficient in meeting its needs......not
the least of which is appropriate and ongoing teaching and training. As
others have said, teaching and training don't *have* to mean that you
are paying through the nose forever......just that you keep on *doing
the work*. Though (and my own prejudices are going to be showing here) I
don't know of ANY two week "training" programs that don't involve a
hellova lot of overly harsh corrections....so, if that was the case,
sometimes I'd rather that inexperienced people *not* continue with that
sort of work.
Maybe you're right and the first bite was (as you put it) "out of the
blue". I doubt this....especially with the lack of training involved
her. One f the nifty side effects of learning to train your dog is that
you become profoundly aware of your dog's behavior and motivations. That
enables the owner to see things in their dog's behavior long before they
develop into full blown problems. Let's just say, though, that is *was*
out of the blue. That explains the first bite. I'm still unclear as to
why you didn't' seek out help, or at least manage this individual dog to
prevent the *second* one.....or any that followed.
The fact that you sent the dog back to the breeder before you even took
the dog to the vet also makes me think twice about what you are trying
to convince people of. I'm sure you feel fully taken advantage of (and
this is a heartbreaking situation in any case). It still seems as though
you played a role here. You can choose to deflect all blame and maintain
victim status.....or you could choose to learn about why this happened.
Some of why this happened might very well be due to crappy breeding. I
don't know. But I think you are doing any future dogs you may own a
great disservice by spending more time deflecting than educating
yourself about training a family dog that is a joy to live with. This
could be a great learning experience for you.....on SO many more levels
than "I learned that I got victimized".
Its pretty much your choice.
Tara
Tricia9999
>rescue dog, by the way!) I think that makes us experienced.
>
No actually it really doesn't.
Manadero
>I guess we had a "out of the blue" situation.
No. You didn't. If you were experienced, you could have read your dog's
intentions and would have known there were dominance/territory issues before
the "out of the blue" bite. That said, do you also consider the second
"mauling" to be "out of the blue"?
>Who could ever afford that? You'd need to take a second job!
Spending $1,200 for a pet is acceptable, but a couple of hundred in classes is
going to break the bank? Again, your logic is faulty at best. How would you
have ever afforded the vet bills if, being left to run at will, she had been
hit by the UPS truck? You wouldn't have, would be my guess, since you returned
your one year old dog to the breeder, expecting her to pick up the tab for
medical testing. She probably doesn't need a vet to tell her that you aren't
experienced enough for that dog and that it didn't have sufficient training,
socialization and supervision.
>You're right. I shouldn't do that. A broken heart and now anger with the
>breeder's unprofessionalism have taken over.
>
You probably won't appreciate this but your posts here, IMO, demonstrate beyond
a shadow of a doubt that you have some fairly serious denial issues. Your
failure to accept any responsibility for your actions tells me that you have
probably been just this unreasonable all along. I sure wouldn't want to deal
with a puppy buyer like that. I can just imagine, if you will present yourself
in this manner to strangers, how sick she must be of being hounded by someone
so "experienced" that they didn't train/supervise the dog and then dumped it
instead of making any effort to solve the problems caused by the former. If
the breeder is smart, her first change will be to buck up her screening
process.
And, by the way, your statement earlier that owning one Sheltie makes you an
experienced dog person would be funny, if it weren't so sad. Your Beardie bit,
so all Beardies are inbred genetic nightmares, but your Sheltie doesn't bite,
therefore all Shelties are wonderful. Geeez. What color is your hair? I once
knew a blonde guy that was a complete moron. If you are also blonde, you must
be stupid too.....
Robin
Shuddering to think of the example being set for the kids...
Manadero
>Yes, we thought it was a good school. Muffy bit the UPS man in our front
>foyer in front of my wife.
So she broke a down stay to do so?
>Perhaps with a beardie, but not a sheltie, or a lab or most any other kind
>of dog.
You are kidding, right? You are again basing your expert opinion on the fact
that you have owned one -> 1 <- Sheltie that has done ok despite your lack of
experience. A rescue to boot (see also: probably belonged at some point to
someone that trained and socialized them)
>>>I don't think that most herding dogs are good with kids
>
>That's debatable. I happen to disagree.
Well, speaking as someone that has a bit more experience than yourself. -
Thirty four years of living with, raising, training and rescuing nothing BUT
Herding Breeds (Corgis, Shelties, Australian Shepherds, Border Collies,
Australian Cattle Dogs and a German Shepherd), I assure you that you are VERY
wrong. The majority of herding breeds are less than terrific choices for
families with children. I would like to tell you how many "dump calls" I've
gotten for dogs that chase, nip, bite, etc the children in the family
(likewise, calls for dogs that have done the same to 'strangers' in the home)
but I couldn't possibly, there have been too many. Suffice it to say I
probably turn down some 25% of the dogs that we are called for because of a
bite history. Same song, different verse. Someone thinks that puppy is cute,
herding breeds are cool (after all, BOTH Lassie _and_ Rin Tin Tin were herding
dogs!), and they take them home, offer them little guidance and less
supervision and ultimately, the dog, now a clueless teenager, pays the price.
>Perhaps without any obedience training. I agree.
>
Hmm, like maybe someone that spent all of a few weeks on training and
socialization?
Robin
Manadero
>We're beginning to think that Muffy had a health problem (brain tumor?) and
>the breeder put her down and now won't tell us anything because she would
>then have to give the money back.
Not likely, since a brain tumor wouldn't be considered genetic.
Most likely, she's just learned (as we are here) that any attempt to discuss
the situation rationally with you is an effort in futility. After all, you
take responsibility for NOTHING, least of all your own actions.
Robin