Anyone has a dog or pub from Monks of New Skete?
Simon Birch
I have been on the waiting list for a German Shepherd pup from Monks
of New Skete for over two years now. I registered with them after
extensive research and decided that they are the most responsible
breeders out there. Although the wait has been agonizing, I kept
telling myself that it’s the price to pay for getting a truly noble
animal. But lately, I started having doubt. For one, I just don’t want
to wait any longer, but also, after another round of research, I found
out that there are many other breeders in the U.S that has very good
reputation and many claim that they have imported blood lines from
Germany.
So my question is this: Does anyone know if the Monks of New Skete
have truly excellent blood lines that they can produce from? Are those
stocks from Germany?
Thank you very much for your help.
P.S If you have suggestions on truly reputable breeders, please leave
their information as well. Thanks.
Jo Wolf
when it comes to quality. The fact that a GSD comes from Germany does
NOT mean that it is a top quality dog in any sense of the word. It may
be... but it very well may be tougher temperament and personality than
you and your homeowner insurance carrier want to deal with. I don't
know what stock the monks are using these days.
Your post sounds as if this is the first dog or at least the first GSD
for you... You want a decent, healthy, mentally stable, friendly, very
trainable dog. You might very well be overwhelmed by a tough working
lines German-based GSD such as used by law enforcement agencies. Such a
dog can be found in both US and German lines and combined lines. And it
can probably be found reasonably nearby, and within a reasonable time
period.
Go to the AKC web site Breeder Referal section and contact some of the
advertisers. Find the address of the German Shepherd Dog Club of America
at the site and contact, requesting referal to breeders near you.
There may also be a local or regional GSD club near you.... and there
are always members of these local clubs who assist people like you who
want a great pet and companion to evaluate your needs and often will
refer you to area breeders who produce great companion dogs... and
suggest the dog obedience trainers in the area who are best equipped to
teach you to train your dog. With a nearby responsible breeder, you can
call anytime for questions, advice, to share a silly puppy tale, to
worry with if the dog is ill or injured, etc. The GSD club nearest me
even has puppy socialization time before each meeting, and welcomes pet
owners to membership! Oh, and you will be able to at least meet your
puppy's mother... and perhaps the father will be in the area and
available to meet... and you will probably be able to spend time
watching the litter before the pups are old enough for their new homes.
And no, this isn't my breed.... <grin>
Simon Birch
Indeed it's my first dog and first GSD. That's why I did so much
research and was being very cautious, especially after reading horror
stories of injuries caused by GSD with unsound temperament. But I
guess I went to the extreme.
I'll start looking for local breeders now, and hopefully I can find a
really good one.
Thanks again!
jo-...@webtv.net (Jo Wolf) wrote in message news:<23807-3E1...@storefull-2157.public.lawson.webtv.net>...
staf...@webtv.net
From: simonbir...@yahoo.com
< I found out that there are many other breeders in the U.S that has
very good reputation and many claim that they have imported blood lines
from Germany. >
There's good breeders around... of course, much of that depends on
*your* definition of 'good breeder'. ;-) There's good dogs of many
bloodlines, depending on what you want. I wanted a hard, drivey bitch,
and went to a sport dog breeding to get her. I looked at lots and lots
of dogs, but couldn't find the drive and 'spark' I wanted from American
show lines, or high lines dogs, let alone the structure I needed.
If you want a pet, you might try the AKC site. If you want a working
dog, you might have some luck checking here for a club close to you:
http://www.dvgamerica.com/index.html
DVG is an all breed training organization. A local DVG club will give
you contacts to GSD breeders/available pups in your area.
But first, define what you want in a dog. It will be hard to look for
that 'perfect' dog if you don't know what you really want. ;-)
Debbie
Tara
> Anyone has a dog or pub from Monks of New Skete?
>
> I have been on the waiting list for a German Shepherd pup from Monks
> of New Skete for over two years now. I registered with them after
> extensive research and decided that they are the most responsible
> breeders out there.
What brought you to this conclusion?
Personally, I think they are some of the more irresponsible breeders of
GSDs around, so I'm curious (honestly) about what aspects of their
breeding program you liked.
> Although the wait has been agonizing, I kept
> telling myself that it’s the price to pay for getting a truly noble
> animal.
While GSDs ARE worth the wait, I wouldn't say waiting for one of theirs
would be worth it at all. Unless sick, prone to inherited diseases and
fear biters are something noble. Ok....that was biting and I apologize.
I ADORE GSDs, but I frankly abhor what the Monks have done. They're not
much more than a glorified puppy mill for a specific breed.....and
temperament means basically zilch to them.
> But lately, I started having doubt. For one, I just don’t want
> to wait any longer,
well, while I don't think their dogs are worth any wait at all, I think
it *is* worth it to sit down and reevaluate your breeder
criteria.....and search for a new one. This means you might end up
waiting quite awhile after all. Given how many physical and temperament
problems our breed has on a widespread scale (basically due to crappy
breeding), it is WELL worth the wait, as long as what you're waiting for
is worth it.
> but also, after another round of research, I found
> out that there are many other breeders in the U.S that has very good
> reputation and many claim that they have imported blood lines from
> Germany.
> So my question is this: Does anyone know if the Monks of New Skete
> have truly excellent blood lines that they can produce from? Are those
> stocks from Germany?
The monks basically have created an unstable line of dogs that have no
consistency that I've seen. The good, stable dogs that I've seen from
their kennel have been the exception rather than the rule.
> Thank you very much for your help.
> P.S If you have suggestions on truly reputable breeders, please leave
> their information as well. Thanks.
That I don't have, but Diane Blackman (one of the more diplomatic
regulars here) has an excellent web site that addresses what qualities
to look for in a responsible breeder.
http://dog-play.com/ethics.html
Good luck.
Tara
--
Very funny, Scotty. Now beam down my clothes!
Simon Birch
cost to insure a GSD. Would it make a difference that the dog comes
from New Skete?
Thanks much.
Jo Wolf
find that out now, before you have the dog, so you can change companies
if necessary. Having at least basic obedience training and earning the
AKC's Canine Good Citizen Certificate show that you are a more
responsible owner than the average guy because you've "bothered" to get
the two of you trained to work as a very polite team. Where the dog
comes from will mean exactly Nothing to the insurance folks. In most
cases the Only important thing to them is the breed.
Jo Wolf
Martinez, Georgia
diddy
>
> Another question: talking about homeowner insurance, how much does it
> cost to insure a GSD. Would it make a difference that the dog comes
> from New Skete?
> Thanks much.
Some insurance agencies will not insure German Shepherds at all.
Regardless of who the breeder is. Where they come from would not make a
difference in any event.
Check your insurance policy regarding their dog policy.
Simon Birch
to provide me with so much information.
I’m not necessarily looking for a ‘working dog’, since I don’t hunt
and I don’t have a farm. I’m looking for a true family companion (I
don’t like the word ‘pet’). In a sense, I wouldn’t mind at all if the
GSD I’m getting has the same quality as an Seeing Eye Dog (a lot
people don’t realize that the first generations of Seeing Eye Dogs
were mostly German Shepherd dogs. They can be as gentle as a Golden
Retriever, given they have the correct temperament. The irresponsible
breeders have brought such a bad name to this noble animal, it makes
me sick. The problem is that it’s often so hard to tell a good breeder
from a bad one. According to some of the books I read, even some of
the ‘good’ breeders has been knowingly producing and selling problem
dogs).
As for my feelings towards the Monks of New Skete. They impressed me
with their two books, which I feel are full of compassion and
understanding; also, two books I read, also pointed them out as one of
the responsible breeders. So I was surprised by Tara’s comment about
them. Would you mind, Tara, to provide me with some insight and
specifics on why you believe they are not as good as people think they
are? Have you seen many of their pups and dogs yourself?
Anyone here from the Pittsburgh area? I’m reluctant to go with the
AKC’s breeder’s list because first of all, I don’t know if they any
good.
Thanks much!
diddy
Simon,
Why not contact seeing eye groups for German Shepherd's that don't make
seeing eye dogs? Often they are sound individuals with a single issue
that prevents them from making the grade. It might be something as small
as they don't pull enough!
They come well socialized and already trained.
Lisa Baird
> As for my feelings towards the Monks of New Skete. They impressed me
> with their two books, which I feel are full of compassion and
> understanding; also, two books I read, also pointed them out as one of
Haven't read their second, but their first was much too much force and
brute overpowering ht dog for me.
A Google search turned up:
http://realgsd.info/Discuss/Q&A/questlist.htm
--
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Lisa Baird - Haleakala PWDs
"Truly" - CH Fantaseas Truly Scrumptious, CD, AAD, AX, NAJ
"Havoc" - Stargazer Come Hell'R HiWater (puppy with promise!)
Wiley MAD, SM, JM, RM - Beloved All American
Buckeye Region Agility Group <http://www.bragagility.com/>
PAWZitive Beginnings Dog Training <http://www.PAWZitiveBeginnings.com>
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
staf...@webtv.net
From: simonbir...@yahoo.com (Simon Birch)
<I'm looking for a true family companion (I don't like the word 'pet').
In a sense, I wouldn't mind at all if the GSD I'm getting has the same
quality as an Seeing Eye Dog>
Have you thought about getting on the 'career change' list for some of
the service dog organizations? I know several people that have gotten
nice companion dogs this way.
< So I was surprised by Tara's comment about them. >
FWIW, I have the same opinion of them as Tara has. :-)
<Anyone here from the Pittsburgh area? I'm reluctant to go with the
AKC's breeder's list because first of all, I don't know if they any
good. >
You're going to have to decide what you expect out of a breeder, and do
some research. If I were looking for a pet pup, I'd want to see health
clearances, temperament tests, and possibly obedience titles on the
parents. YMMV.
Debbie
diddy
> So I was surprised by Tara’s comment about
> them.
The Monks of New Skete are marketing experts, and you were about to
become a victim
Simon Birch
> Simon,
> Why not contact seeing eye groups for German Shepherd's that don't make
> seeing eye dogs? Often they are sound individuals with a single issue
> that prevents them from making the grade. It might be something as small
> as they don't pull enough!
> They come well socialized and already trained.
That's a great idea. I'm going to try to do that.
Thanks guys.
Marcel Beaudoin
training method is designed off of an old study of wolves and the social
order in wolf packs. It involves a lot of shows of dominance over your dog.
Unfortunately, it has been discovered that dogs are about as similar to
wolves as we are to chimps.
As for finding a breeder, the best thing for you to do is to go visit the
breeders. Get a feel for yourself. Their are others on here who are MUCH
more experinced than I would claim to be, but here is my $0.02 worth about
going to a breeder.
You will get lots of questions. Type of family you have. Where the dog will
live. Hours you work. Hours wife works. Will it be trained. Do you have
kids. How old. How many. The more questions the breeder asks, the better. If
they just up and sell you a pup. Back away quickly!!! You should be able to
see the mother, and most (if not all) of the kennels. They should give you
some health garauntees, and possibly even a warantee (sp??) (Sorry, I don't
know the proper term for it)
--
Marcel Beaudoin
Remove urka-gurka to reply
"Simon Birch" <simonbir...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:cb058864.03010...@posting.google.com...
Simon Birch
Thank you so much, Lisa! What a wonderful site this is!
Lynn K.
> brute overpowering ht dog for me.
The late Job Michael Evans
was their lead trainer and wrote much of
the 1st book, but even he denounced it after he
left the order. The 2nd book is worse, as are
their current dogs. They started out very badly
with really bad breeding stock but were taken
under the wing of a long time GSD fancier who
advised them and greatly improved their program.
She retired 10 or so years ago and they've
reverted to producing a whole lot of very
mediocre dogs.
> A Google search turned up:
> http://realgsd.info/Discuss/Q&A/questlist.htm
Another man with a "mission" and a web site that
clearly shows his prejudices. One that he's
been successfully sued about.
My advice to Simon - go see the Kirchenwald dogs
in Pgh., but don't buy. Just go to educate your
eye about the breed. Find the contact info for
your local GSD club from the GSDCA website and
go to a meeting or a specialty show to meet
breeders in your area.
Lynn K.
Jerry Sheldon
> Lisa Baird <agi...@columbus.rr.com> wrote in message news:
>
> > Haven't read their second, but their first was much too much force and
> > brute overpowering ht dog for me.
>
> The late Job Michael Evans
> was their lead trainer and wrote much of
> the 1st book, but even he denounced it after he
> left the order. The 2nd book is worse, as are
> their current dogs. ....
>
Lynn,
I'm confused. Evans is the Co-author of the second book under the Monks of
New Skete Byline.... also, probably I'm too dense, but i really didn't find
the first (or second) book to advocate "too much force."
No hassle, just confused.
Jerry Sheldon
Avrama Gingold
in peace, who left the Monks and became a protessional trainer and dog
writer. I spoke with him only a few times, but I do know that he recommended
a friend looking for a GSD for much the same reason as you NOT go to the
Monks.
Incidentally, the advice about not wanting a dog from working lines if this
is your first dog is very good. You might also consider getting a bitch
instead of a dog; a tad smaller and often considered by many easier to
train. (P.S., I too am not in GSDs although I like them: note my tagline,
and as a one-dog-at-a-time person (living in an apartment) I prefer males.)
--
avrama & baruch
academi...@earthlink.net
<> If I have but one life to lead, let my lead be on a Doberman! <>
"
montana
Jerry Sheldon <jsheld...@his.com> wrote:
> Lynn,
>
> I'm confused. Evans is the Co-author of the second book under the Monks of
> New Skete Byline.... also, probably I'm too dense, but i really didn't find
> the first (or second) book to advocate "too much force."
>
> No hassle, just confused.
I'm not Lynn, but the Monks have this idea that dogs try to
"dominate" and should be scruff shaken and "alpha" rolled to show them
who's boss.
The Monks talk about how a wolf pack dynamic works, but dogs are not
wolves and I am not a wolf. I have never seen any instance where
bullying a dog is an appropriate solution. I used to dog sit for years
and my DH & I have three dogs. We're no trainers, mind you.
There is no question that DH & I are the leaders of our pack and we've
never treated our dogs with anything but kindness and gentle methods. We
believe in training and we've found clicker training to be very useful
and fun.
Have you read any Ian Dunbar or Karen Pryor training books? There have
been a lot of discussions here about behavior books and you could go to
google.com to peruse some of them.
Suja
Jerry Sheldon wrote:
> New Skete Byline.... also, probably I'm too dense, but i really didn't find
> the first (or second) book to advocate "too much force."
Use of scruff shakes and "alpha rolls" are what I consider to be too
much force. Maybe it does work in a wolf pack situation, but my dog is
a dog, not a wolf, and I am human, not a wolf, and my dog is smart
enough to tell the difference. Besides, why use physical confrontation
when there are easier, safer methods that work well and won't damage the
trust your dog has placed in you?
Suja
Jerry Sheldon
>
> Use of scruff shakes and "alpha rolls" are what I consider to be too
> much force. ...
Suja,
How about my question about the author in fact still being "on-board" with this
approach, used by many, as he is the Co-author of the second New Skete book.
Seems that he is not too far alienated from this approach, contrary to the post
above.
It is/was my understanding that the author left his religious order over
life-style/philosophic issues unrelated to dogs.
Thanks for your reply.
Jerry Sheldon
Suja
Jerry Sheldon wrote:
>
> How about my question about the author in fact still being "on-board" with this
> approach, used by many, as he is the Co-author of the second New Skete book.
> Seems that he is not too far alienated from this approach, contrary to the post
> above.
>
> It is/was my understanding that the author left his religious order over
> life-style/philosophic issues unrelated to dogs.
I quite honestly do not know why he left the Monks. After reading the
first book, which seemed quite primitive and heavy handed in its
approach compared to those of Pryor, Dunbar, McConnel et al., I haven't
read anything written by Evans. He has published a few books since he
left the Monks, but I don't really know how he approaches training in
those books, and therefore can't comment on whether he has changed his
training philosophy.
I believe that the Monks have apologized at some point for the harshness
of their training methods, and don't believe them to be appropriate any
more. I could look it up if you want cites.
Suja
diddy
>
> Jerry Sheldon wrote:
> >
> > How about my question about the author in fact still being "on-board" with this
> > approach, used by many, as he is the Co-author of the second New Skete book.
> > Seems that he is not too far alienated from this approach, contrary to the post
> > above.
> >
> > It is/was my understanding that the author left his religious order over
> > life-style/philosophic issues unrelated to dogs.
>
> I quite honestly do not know why he left the Monks.
the church and died of AIDS. This is no secret. But you are right,
Micheal Evans and the Monks of New Skete both and separately recanted
some of their published practices.
As in everyone, beliefs we once held to be true are often revised as we
are led down our respective paths in life. However, once published, time
stands still. It's most difficult to recall the record once it becomes
public, even if you no longer feel that way.
> Suja
Chris Williams
> dog', since I don't hunt and I don't have
> a farm. I'm looking for a true family
> companion (I don't like the word 'pet').
pulled the wonderful Sinatra from a kill-shelter on the last day of 2002
which was to be the last day of his life. We got to enjoy his perfect
termperament for just a few days until a family qualified to adopt him.
http://www.sbacc.org/dogsadopted/jan/sinatrafull.jpg
They got a prince among dogs.
Melinda Shore
Suja <span...@nhgri.nih.gov> wrote:
>I believe that the Monks have apologized at some point for the harshness
>of their training methods, and don't believe them to be appropriate any
>more. I could look it up if you want cites.
Job Michael Evans was the one who apologized. However, if
you take a look at the revised edition of "How To Be Your
Dog's Best Friend," which was published last year
(i.e. after Evans' death), they state very clearly that you
should not alpha roll your dog (and they're generally
softer about physical corrections, etc.).
--
Melinda Shore - Software longa, hardware brevis - sh...@panix.com
If you send me harassing email, I'll probably post it
shelly
"Jerry Sheldon" <jsheld...@his.com> wrote in message
news:3E1ADA86...@his.com...
> How about my question about the author in fact still being "on-board"
with this
> approach, used by many, as he is the Co-author of the second New Skete
book.
> Seems that he is not too far alienated from this approach, contrary to
the post
> above.
FYI it was first published in 1978. he died in the mid-90s. the
revised addition of the book came out last year, long after his death.
i haven't read either edition, so i don't know what changes were made or
whether or not those changes reflect his later feelings about alpha
rolls.
> It is/was my understanding that the author left his religious order
over
> life-style/philosophic issues unrelated to dogs.
that may be, but IIRC he stated that he regretted some of the harsher
methods in the Monks books (e.g. scruff shakes and alpha rolls). that
doesn't mean they aren't worthwhile books, but don't treat them--or any
other book--like the bible of dog training. it's a good idea to read a
wide variety of books and to find a local trainer you're comfortable
working with.
--
shelly and elliott & harriet
http://home.bluemarble.net/~scouvrette
Chris Williams
> seemed quite primitive and heavy
> handed in its approach
since I refused to do any of those things, I thought, "My pore dawgs.
They'll have to get by with no training." Then came:
> compared to those of Pryor, Dunbar,
.. and Pat Miller and Clothier.
Eureka! and I found interaction _is training. I'd been doing it all
along. :)
AgilPWD
> Micheal Evans and the Monks of New Skete both and separately recanted
> some of their published practices.
> As in everyone, beliefs we once held to be true are often revised as
> we are led down our respective paths in life. However, once published,
> time stands still. It's most difficult to recall the record once it
> becomes public, even if you no longer feel that way.
This is a very good point. I used to teach Puppy Classes with Alpha rolls.
I no longer do. But I am not in print anywhere. <g>
Tara
> Suja wrote:
>
>
>>Use of scruff shakes and "alpha rolls" are what I consider to be too
>>much force. ...
>
>
> Suja,
>
> How about my question about the author in fact still being "on-board" with this
> approach, used by many, as he is the Co-author of the second New Skete book.
a) he's not still "on board" with their methods as he died several years
ago.
b) by saying he authored the first book, people are saying that he
authored the first
series. Apparently even the monks themselves have changed their methods
drastically as
they have (from what I've been told. I won't spend money on their books)
reissued
their books with al new training methods.
c) Job himself had stated himself that he had moved away from the
methods proposed in
the monks books quite some time before he died.
> Seems that he is not too far alienated from this approach, contrary to the post
> above.
Well, you'd have to read his later works to see that he really had changed.
Gwen Watson
"Lynn K." wrote:
> > A Google search turned up:
> > http://realgsd.info/Discuss/Q&A/questlist.htm
>
> Another man with a "mission" and a web site that
> clearly shows his prejudices. One that he's
> been successfully sued about.
>
Really, this is interesting. What was he sued for?
By who? I am just curious. Do you have information
of the outcome? What were the charges for the lawsuit?
Fraud?
Gwen
Lynn K.
> Really, this is interesting. What was he sued for?
You know the examples of "bad" GSDs and breeders
Martin had on the site? He was sued by one or
more of those breeders, I believe for libel.
Lynn K.
Lynn K.
>
> I'm confused. Evans is the Co-author of the second book under the Monks of
> New Skete Byline....
I could be wrong, but I think the timing was
that he left the order as the 2nd book was in
early draft stages. He later said that the
alpha roll was dangerous and the advice in the
1st book to mount toy breeds was ridiculous.
Lynn K.
Gwen Watson
"Lynn K." wrote:
I don't think I really ever looked at the breeder site. I did
look at the stud dog site I think.
I can see how if he was saying bad things about a line
of GSD and breeders he got sued.
Gwen