COLLIE CLUB OF AMERICA BETRAYS BREED!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Leslie Mamer
The Collie Club of America has, without any examination by the Ethics
Committee or discussion with the governing body, reinstated Mary Ann
Keefer as a member in good standing. If the name doesn't ring a bell,
let me enlighten you:
Mary Ann Keefer, of Thornacre Collies, was and IS the intimate partner
of one Dan Pierce, the convicted dog killer reported at the "Scenes From
A death Camp" web site. She was his next door neighbor, who knew of his
systematic death by torture of those Collies. Worse yet, she not only
did NOTHING to intervene; she also REFUSED to cooperate with law
endorsement authorities and testify against him in court!!!
In February of this year, after Pierce's conviction, Carmen Leonard,
Secretary of the Collie Club of America, sent a post to the Collie mail
list stating that Mary Ann Keefer had NOT been a member since 1995,
having failed to renew her membership for 1996. However, the 1996 CCA
Yearbook just published and distributed not only lists Keefer as a 1996
member, it also gives her NEW (as of March or April 1997) address and
telephone number!!
If Keefer was NOT a member in 1996, as stated by Leonard (the
administrator of the membership roster) what is she doing as listed in
the 1996 CCA Yearbook, huh?? Worse yet is Keefer's integral role in the
puppy murders by her friend and neighbor Pierce. Keefer herself acquired
some insulation from prosecution by initially advising law enforcement
that she would cooperate with them in Pierce's prosecution. She held
this immunity up until the 11th hour of the case, when other players
became reluctant to testify and helped them lobby the prosecution for a
plea agreement. This crime, being only considered a MISDEMEANOR, didn't
merit pursuit of Keefer even for forcing the plea agreement in the eyes
of the Guernsey Co. prosecutors office.
The Collie Club of America, having failed to take any stand whatsoever
in the matter prior to the disciplinary action of the American Kennel
Club, had through Secretary Carmen Leonard, led the membership to
understand that Keefer would NOT be reinstated to membership without
some sort of examination of her part in these horrifying crimes. In
essence, Carmen Leonard LIED to the membership deliberately, authorized
the inclusion of Keefer's name in the 1996 Yearbook AND provided the
Yearbook Editor with Keefer's brand new 1997 address and phone number.
So, at the absolutely highest level of power, even greater than that of
the Club President's, the welfare and concern for the ENTIRE breed has
been summarily judged by ONE person to be of less interest than the
amount of $50: the price of membership reinstatement.
The membership has lobbied for years for Constitutional revisions. In my
opinion, the breed has never had a better reason to demand protection
from neglect of it's needs through the oversight of the American Kennel
Club. THIS careless disregard by a breed club is why animal rights
organizations and breed-specific legislation gets a foot in the door.
BTW, though I am ashamed to be a member of the Collie Club of America, I
recognize that change can only be brought from "within". Therefore, it
is my intention to run for national office again. At least I'm willing
to put my money where my mouth is. I'm copying this to the AKC. If you
think that AKC should investigate this betrayal of the breed by a PARENT
CLUB, please send them an e-mail yourselves. More is better in this
case.
--
Leslie Mamer
Heirlair Collies
#1 PITA to CCA/CCAF
*******
Remember the Pierce Collies!
http://ic.net/~dwayne/pierce
"Scenes From A Death Camp"
NEVER FORGET THESE CRIMES !!!!!!
Meridel1
>THIS careless disregard by a breed club
What careless disregard? To quote from the CCA constitution - Article
VIII/Sec. 2:
"Any member who has voluntarily resigned or discontinued paying his
membership dues may be accepted as an active member upon payment of the
current year's dues, together with a reinstatement fee."
Now, I can remember one year when I didn't have the $ to pay when dues
were due and had to cough up $50 also, later on in the year. So of
course, the secretary included my name in the following year's CCA
Yearbook, just like she/he was supposed to do.
As far as Ms. Leonard's leading the membership to"understand that Keefer
would NOT be reinstated......." When was this? I, too, am part of the
membership and, through my District Director, have access to Communiques.
I do not recall seeing any such statement on the part of the Secretary,
nor would such a statement be warranted since she was only FOLLOWING THE
DICTATES OF THE CONSTITUTION.
Meredith Ponedel
Meridel Collies
Doug Jones
meri...@aol.com (Meridel1) wrote:
>>THIS careless disregard by a breed club
>
>What careless disregard? To quote from the CCA constitution - Article
>VIII Section 2:
>
>"Any member who has voluntarily resigned or discontinued paying his
>membership dues may be accepted as an active member upon payment of the
>current year's dues, together with a reinstatement fee."
>
>Now, I can remember one year when I couldn't come up with the $ to pay my
>dues on time and also ended up paying $50 at a later date.
>
>As far as Secretary Leonard's having "......led the membership to
>understand that Keefer would NOT be reinstated......." When was this? I,
>too, am part of the membership and, through my District Director, have
>access to the Communiques. I do not recall getting any information to
>this effect, nor, should there have been any necessary since Secretary
>Leonard was only complying with THE DICTATES OF THE CONSTITUTION.
>
>Meredith Ponedel
>Meridel Collies
Meredith,
You're right.... and you're wrong. While you have accurately stated
the CCA Constitution, you have overlooked that the CCA passed a policy
several years back, where a member who had more than a one year lapse
was treated as a "new member".
You are also right in that the statement by Secretary Leonard was not
in the CCA Communiques. However, a statement to this effect *was*
forwarded to the Collie List from Secretary Leonard.
Since Mary Anne Keefer was not a member in 1996, and only re-applied
recently, her re-instatement should have been treated as a "new
application", BY CCA POLICY.
Doug Jones
Norbrook Collies
IamPitbull
Forwarded to this Newsgroup per CCAPITA's request:
Oh, Leslie, you are a such legend in your own mind!
"Half truths---No Truths----Nothing But The Lies"--Leslie Mamer
I see you didn't take my advice and seek treatment and lock yourself up.
More's the pity, because you are getting crazier by the minute. You lost
your forum on Collie-I; you can't post to the new list; so what does a
crazy person do? Why, she takes her garbage to a "pet newsgroup". Way to
go Leslie!!! Let everyone from all the breeds witness first hand, how
nuts you are!
Currently on another rampage?? When you can't base your arguments on
facts, you make things up, as you go along. It has served you well in the
past, but no more. It has gone beyond the art of simple lying. You have
moved into the realm of delusions and hallucinations. For your
information, Mrs. Leonard did not make any statements regarding Mary Ann
Keefer. Number one, why would the club want to examine Mary Ann's part?
Not only was she not convicted of ANY crime, but it was never proven that
she had any connection whatsoever to the sordid Pierce mess. The remarks
you attribute to Mrs. Leonard are completely fabricated--you must have
heard them in your dreams. Secondly, Mrs. Leonard as the club secretary,
is not the "administrator of the membership" roster. Nor does she have
the authorization to admit or exclude any members from the CCA.
Certainly, even you must realize this. You know Leslie, something has
become very obvious--you continue to include Mrs. Leonard in most of your
personal vendettas and attacks. It is very apparent, that you are so
jealous of her success and influence, and her club stature, that you can't
stand it. Let me explain something to you--in terms you can relate
to--you aren't even a pimple on her ass!
It's the same old story--tell a couple of lies---embellish the
truth---slant things a little--stretch your limited imagination--make
things up as you go along--then trash and bash--It's Leslie at her worse!!
But, it's the only style you know and you don't even do it well!. You
are currently doing a "number" on Jeanne Welch. Let me give you a
friendly warning--someday Leslie, your ass is going to end up in a sling
and you will lose all the money you made from your lawsuits.
BTW, in case you weren't aware of it--thanks to your efforts, the Dan
Pierce prosecution case was completely undermined. Because of your
barrage of insults, abuse, and harassment, the prosecution smelled another
rat. The integrity of the entire investigation was compromised, thanks
solely to you. You exploited the whole affair for your own glorification
and gratification. Furthermore, your continued tirades removed any hope
of any of the witnesses ever testifying. YOU MS. MAMER ARE THE SOLE
REASON DAN PIERCE RECEIVED SUCH A LIGHT SENTENCE, WITH NOTHING MORE THAN A
SLAP ON THE WRIST! You are still at it, egging Dan and others on--even
bringing his sexual preferences into it (like that has anything to do with
the situation!).
Speaking of abuse and cruelty to animals---I bet you never brag about the
1996 Columbus National, when you arrived with your nasty dogs in tow???
Remember the fights with several people over the conditions and general
state of your dogs? Remember how soiled, filthy, dirty and spooky they
were? Remember all the fighting? And you my dear, criticize others
regarding the care of their dogs? I mean really Leslie, pinch
yourself--it's time for a reality check! If I remember correctly (in
listening to all the shouting and commotion), certain people did not want
the dogs bred by them and now owned by you, to be shown. They considered
it an embarrassment not only to themselves, but most of all, to the dogs
because of their condition (i.e. poop and urine stained, dirty,
undernourished and prick-eared). All of the breeders, without exception,
were sorry they had ever sold you the dogs in the first place. One
breeder who screamed at you, even refused to handle one of your dogs.
Remember all this? Hmmm?? Why haven't you been bragging about this on
the newsgroup??
Oh and by the way Leslie, a word of advice--don't ever let your CCA
membership lapse! This I know to be a fact--you will never get back into
the club! You are "ashamed to be a member of CCA"?? Guess what? It
won't take much imagination to figure this one out----the club and its
members look at you in shame AND pity. And BTW, go ahead and run for
office--that will be good for a couple of laughs. How many votes last
time--26? Even people you consider your friends laugh behind your back.
One of your friends, Athena says you need a permanant choke collar! Ask
your friend Doug about some of his private comments. They make for great
reading. The trash annihilating the trash!
Congratulations, YOU Leslie Mamer--breeder of one champion--abuser of your
own dogs--Dan Pierce's Salvation--Keep up the great work!!!!!!
The Real CCAPITA
No imitation here!!!
Be sure and visit my web site (under construction) exposing Ms. Mamer for
the charlatan, fake and fraud she is! See her own dogs that she
abused--pictures from the 1996 National!!
**********
Remember Leslie Mamer!
NEVER FORGET LESLIE MAMER SET DAN PIERCE FREE!!!!!
Vlad
with you anyway? You think that it's okay to live yards away from a
torture chamber KNOWING what that piece of shit is doing, forget to pay
your member dues for more than a year, BACK OUT of using what you know
to put his ass in jail, and then be warmly WELCOMED back into the breed
club as a member with full privileges??? Probably SOP for a Neo-Nazi
outfit but it sure as hell ain't right for a PARENT CLUB!!!!!
> >What careless disregard? To quote from the CCA constitution - Article
> >VIII Section 2:
> >
> >"Any member who has voluntarily resigned or discontinued paying his
> >membership dues may be accepted as an active member upon payment of the
> >current year's dues, together with a reinstatement fee."
Uhuh. Now maybe the Collie Club should think about changing their
Constitution to add a provision that says that lapsed or current members
who have had some incidences which might be viewed as breed ethics
violations will be reviewed by the membership before being given any
member privileges. "course, that might be TOO RESPONSIBLE for a club
that can't even make a public statement about a lower life form like
Pierce, who wasn't even a member PERIOD!!! I mean what the hell did they
have to lose, huh??? He was arrested and convicted and the Collie Club
still NEVER uttered a peep until weeks AFTER the AKC acted on behalf of
the breed FOR THEM!!!!
> >Now, I can remember one year when I couldn't come up with the $ to pay my
> >dues on time and also ended up paying $50 at a later date.
Yeah, but did you help one of your buddies to cover up a series of
crimes against your breed??
> >As far as Secretary Leonard's having "......led the membership to
> >understand that Keefer would NOT be reinstated......." When was this? I,
> >too, am part of the membership and, through my District Director, have
> >access to the Communiques. I do not recall getting any information to
> >this effect, nor, should there have been any necessary since Secretary
> >Leonard was only complying with THE DICTATES OF THE CONSTITUTION.
>
Naaawwww.....that dictatorial paranoid made a personal decision and
hoped nobody would figure it out!
> >Meredith Ponedel
> >Meridel Collies
>
Doug Jones wrote:
> Meredith,
>
> You're right.... and you're wrong. While you have accurately stated
> the CCA Constitution, you have overlooked that the CCA passed a policy
> several years back, where a member who had more than a one year lapse
> was treated as a "new member".
Yup. That's how they barred two others whose memberships lapsed from
rejoining. That Khaddafi-ette Carmen Leonard got on the phone to her
pals on the Executive Committee and waged a slander campaign so that
these folks who had NEVER been involved in anything detrimental to the
breed got denied membership reinstatement. Can you say DOUBLE
STANDARD????
> You are also right in that the statement by Secretary Leonard was not
> in the CCA Communiques. However, a statement to this effect *was*
> forwarded to the Collie List from Secretary Leonard.
Uh..I DO believe that Ms. Mamer stated ONLY that the membership "was led
to believe". She didn't say how and it's not relevent in the first
place! Who gives a flying fart if Carmen Leonard puts it on a billboard
or sends it to a Collie mailing list?!?! The idea here is that she made
a promise to people concerned for the Collie breed!!
> Since Mary Anne Keefer was not a member in 1996, and only re-applied
> recently, her re-instatement should have been treated as a "new
> application", BY CCA POLICY.
Yeah. See above.
> Doug Jones
> Norbrook Collies
>
Meridel1
Vlad,
Why are you assuming that what you read - especially when it's so blatanly
one sided - is the only and absolute truth? You speak of the Dan Pierce
episode as though you were an eye-witness? Were you? Is there something
you're not telling us?
>You think that it's okay to live yards away from a
>torture chamber KNOWING what that piece of shit is doing, forget to pay
>> >Now, I can remember one year when I couldn't come up with the $ to pay
my
>> >dues on time and also ended up paying $50 at a later date.
>
>Yeah, but did you help one of your buddies to cover up a series of
>crimes against your breed??
>
>
Maybe I did and maybe I didn't; how would you presume to know either way?>
>Yup. That's how they barred two others whose memberships lapsed from
>rejoining.
Please re-read the quote from the CCA constitution: these
"reinstatements" involved lapses of more than one year.
Can you spell INTELLIGENCE?
CCAPita
Leslie Mamer writes:
Got something to say and the stones to back it up?? Well, if you can't do
it
with your real name, TROLL, do it on the newsgroups. I'll answer you
there.
>>
BE MY GUEST, MAMER. TAKE IT ANYWHERE YOU WANT--EVERYONE ALREADY KNOWS
WHAT YOU ARE GOING TO SAY, WITH YOUR USUAL HELLFIRE AND BRIMSTONE---NO
SUBSTANCE, OF COURSE--THE USUAL LIES, DENIALS AND BS--COMPLETE WITH RACIAL
AND SEXUAL SLURS, MORE INNUENDO, ETC. WHAT YA GONNA ADD MAMER?? :-)
Leslie Mamer
On 1 Aug 1997 03:42:34 GMT, meri...@aol.com (Meridel1) wrote:
>Vlad,
>
>Why are you assuming that what you read - especially when it's so blatanly
>one sided - is the only and absolute truth? You speak of the Dan Pierce
>episode as though you were an eye-witness? Were you? Is there something
>you're not telling us?
You mean the photos at the web site aren't enough for you, Meredith? What
part of that, taken from the evidence submitted to the court, is NOT true?
I suppose that pleading guilty to two rather than the original 10 charges
somehow minimizes Pierce's culpability? I think NOT!
>>Yeah, but did you help one of your buddies to cover up a series of
>>crimes against your breed??
>
>Maybe I did and maybe I didn't; how would you presume to know either way?>
Well, if you are somewhat acquainted with the English language and can read
the Mary Shingle letter posted in it's entirety at the web site, you too
might come to that same conclusion. How DOES one walk
away from a "puppy Auschwitz" and recant statements to law enforcement, or
ask for a plea agreement in lieu of having to testify against a friend you
know to be a monster? Clearly Shingle *was* an eyewitness to these acts of
barbarism. Perhaps her "friendships" meant more than the lives ebbing way
in front of her? I know I would have not done the same as she; nor would
most of the people here on r.p.d. What about you, Meredith?
Doug Jones
meri...@aol.com (Meridel1) wrote:
>
>>
>
>Maybe I did and maybe I didn't; how would you presume to know either way?>
>
>>Yup. That's how they barred two others whose memberships lapsed from
>>rejoining.
>
>Please re-read the quote from the CCA constitution: these
>"reinstatements" involved lapses of more than one year.
>
>Can you spell INTELLIGENCE?
>
Merideth,
Can you spell READING COMPREHENSION? Re-read the quote from the CCA
Constitution yourself. Tell me *where* in that quote does it put a
TIME LIMIT on re-instatement? I'll give you a helpful hint - it
doesn't, and it doesn't anywhere *ELSE* in the CCA Constitution.
Doug Jones
Leslie Mamer
On Sat, 26 Jul 1997 04:04:58 -0700, lawr...@cyberspace.com wrote:
>> Leslie,
>> As I told Dogman, if I can do ANYTHING to help keep the public aware
>> of the awful fate of those dogs, just let me know. Id be happy to help.
>> Those photos will NEVER leave my mind. Im not normally a *cryer*,
>> but those pictures made me cry. Especially the one of the Collie
>> buried in shit and mud, with it's head towards an empty water bucket.
>> I couldn't even tell it was a dog except for it's head!
>> This *man*, AND his *supporters* should be keelhauled.
>> Cheers,
>> Terri
>
>
>Oh, Terri!
>
> Larry
Well Larry, since this has sparked your interest, here are the important
addresses and phone numbers I said I would put up. I'll stick them at each
of the Dan Pierce references and the topic: Collie Club of America... so
they get seen all over. I know, I know. It's probably considered "spamming"
but I'm doing it for the puppies sake so don't jump on me too much about
it. You never know when this bit of information might come in handy. As of
today my best information is that these are current.
ADDRESS FOR DAN PIERCE: HOME AND WORK
25391 Penrose Rd.
Quaker City, Ohio 43773-9509
phone: 614-758-9831
Telespectrum Worldwide
18 10th St.
Ohio Valley Bldg.
Wheeling, W. VA. 26003
phone: 304-232-2166
Site manager's name is Tom Estep
ADDRESS FOR MARYANN KEEFER (works at the same place as Pierce)
Rt. 1, Box 297
Cadiz, Ohio 43907
phone: 614-546-3207
ADDRESS FOR JEANNE WELCH
26 County Route 40
Box 444
Mexico, New York 13114
phone: 315-963-3078
ADDRESS FOR COLLIE CLUB OF AMERICA
George Roos, President
Carmen Leonard, Secretary (all correspondence to her)
1119 S. Fleming Rd.
Woodstock, Illinois 60098
phone: 815-337-0323
fax: 815-337-0437
e-mail: SE...@aol.com
http://www.members.aol.com/collie (and that's all I can remember of the
address)
Each of these addresses is freely available
and published in some type of directory.
Delmont & Laurie Fredricks
In article <19970730063...@ladder01.news.aol.com>,
meri...@aol.com says...
> >THIS careless disregard by a breed club
>
> VIII/Sec. 2:
>
> "Any member who has voluntarily resigned or discontinued paying his
> membership dues may be accepted as an active member upon payment of the
> current year's dues, together with a reinstatement fee."
>
> were due and had to cough up $50 also, later on in the year. So of
> course, the secretary included my name in the following year's CCA
> Yearbook, just like she/he was supposed to do.
>
Why then wasn't Doug Jones afforded the same treatment? Why was he
required to reapply like a new member and rejected with no rational ever
publically given, or privately to Mr. Jones himself for that matter?
Is there a double standard being practiced? Who decides when the
Constitution is adhered to literally, in the spirit of, or outright
ignored?
>
> I do not recall seeing any such statement on the part of the Secretary,
> nor would such a statement be warranted since she was only FOLLOWING
THE
> DICTATES OF THE CONSTITUTION.
>
>
That same Constitution mandates that when approved by the EC, a warrant
for payment shall be made by the Secretary. Why then after nearly a year
or so has the Secretary still failed to issue said warrant to pay the
bills incurred by Mrs. Ireland to stave off ridiculous charges aimed
simply at by-passing the Constitution and the edict of the membership
when they elected her as President?
Again, who decides when the Constitution is to be followed and when it is
not? Seems to me the only fair and honest solution it to follow it AT
ALL TIMES, not simply when it suits someones agenda!!!!!!
Delmont & Laurie Fredricks
In article <33e25d55...@news.telenet.net>, jon...@telenet.net
says...
>
>
> Can you spell READING COMPREHENSION? Re-read the quote from the CCA
> Constitution yourself. Tell me *where* in that quote does it put a
> TIME LIMIT on re-instatement? I'll give you a helpful hint - it
> doesn't, and it doesn't anywhere *ELSE* in the CCA Constitution.
>
Ahh, but Doug, you are missing the point made in Colombus where we do not
need to follow the "Letter" of the Constitution, only the "Spirit" of the
Constitution. Besides, we all lead to believe that we are to damn stupid
to read it and figure it out on our own, so let's let someone else do it
for us and follow along like blind little sheep.
Meridel1
>Why then wasn't Doug Jones afforded the same treatment? Why was he
>required to reapply like a new member and rejected with no rational ever
>publically given, or privately to Mr. Jones himself for that matter?
Again, please re-read the quote from the constitution! In Doug's case,
it had been more than a year since his membership laped. So that didn't
apply to him.
Meredith
lb3...@navix.net
In article <19970731162...@ladder02.news.aol.com>,
I'll stop it right here and advise all readers that, AOL being the server
which affords lots of opportunity for TROLLS to flourish, has served up
THIS TROLL who has been following me around for several months. It
appeared on the Collie e-mail list first. Then, when I unsubscribed very
discreetly to prevent any of it's further disruption of the list, it
followed me here. Looks like it was afraid of being traced so it invented
another screen name (not very complimentary to the bully-breeds) to try
and avoid detection.
The other thing I know about this TROLL is that it is not one person but
a GROUP of Collie persons who take ANY criticism of the Collie Club of
America very personally. You can see the different styles as it rotates
from one TROLL to the next. But really, all you have to do is read what
it is screeching about and balance that against what I have said and what
is at the web site. Everything there is from the evidence files, court
transcripts and that 5 page letter written by one of the witnesses who
backed out. We have a deposition coming from the spectators in court that
day who ALSO participated in the post-court meeting with the prosecutor.
It affirms the reasons for the plea agreement and, I assure you, there is
no mention of me at all. It will be added to the web site when all 10 of
the spectators have finished signing it, and adding their own comments.
At that point you can judge for yourself whether or not to take the
rantings of an anonymous TROLL, who has killfiled me from return e-mail
("delivery refused" is the message); or to accept what you can actually
see as some proof of my integrity. The comments about the "conditions" of
my dogs at the National by the TROLL are nothing more than pure lies
meant to draw me out into it's pissing contest. Kind of funny in a way
since every dog I had with me was a Veteran which was bred and co-owned
by THE top breeders in the country who WERE there and saw them. I WAS
criticized for their "malnourished condition". They were a bit on the
pudgy side, which in view of their advanced ages could be strictly
interpreted as being detrimental <G>. I put on a few pounds after I
passed middle-age, too. The rest of the accusations are pure BS, and my
partner who roomed with me can vouch for having to fight for space on the
beds with the "old timers". NONE of their breeders asked for them back or
expressed concern for either health or condition.
Ahh well... decide for yourselves. Bottom line is that the TROLL doesn't
want the web site up or me in the Collie Club. Lies are the best it can
offer.
-------------------==== Posted via Deja News ====-----------------------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Post to Usenet
Delmont & Laurie Fredricks
In article <19970802191...@ladder02.news.aol.com>,
meri...@aol.com says...
You know, I have read, re-read, and read again the Constitution and NO
WHERE does it sate this phantom 1 year moritorium you speak of. Perhaps
you should read it for yourself and then identify where you are drawing
your reference from. Given that you continually make the reference to
something which is not there, I think you are unfamiliar with what is
really written within that document.
At any rate, we never heard why is membership renewal was rejected. In
fact, Doug himself was never told. But I am willing to bet that he has
not done anything or associated himself with as scurrilous as someone
connected with Mr. Starve'em&Kill'em Pierce.
Doug Jones
meri...@aol.com (Meridel1) wrote:
>>Why then wasn't Doug Jones afforded the same treatment? Why was he
>>required to reapply like a new member and rejected with no rational ever
>>publically given, or privately to Mr. Jones himself for that matter?
>
>Again, please re-read the quote from the constitution! In Doug's case,
>it had been more than a year since his membership laped. So that didn't
>apply to him.
>
>Meredith
Meredith,
Once again. There is NO time limit specified in the CCA Constitution
for re-instatement. That is a *POLICY*, not something in the
Constitution. If you're going to insist people read the document,
you'd better read it yourself.
It was *also* more than a year for Mary Ann Keefer's membership lapse.
However, unlike me, she hadn't said anything about her fellow
breeders. Why, she lived next door to one collie breeder, a guy named
Dan Pierce, and has adamantly refused to say ANYTHING bad about him!
Gosh, that makes her a prime candidate for a back-door reinstatement,
doesn't it? <sarcasm intended>
Doug Jones
CCAPita
Mamer writes---->THIS TROLL who has been following me around for several
months. It
>appeared on the Collie e-mail list first. Then, when I unsubscribed very
>discreetly to prevent any of it's further disruption of the list, it
>followed me here. Looks like it was afraid of being traced so it invented
>another screen name (not very complimentary to the bully-breeds) to try
>and avoid detection.
>The other thing I know about this TROLL is that it is not one person but
>a GROUP of Collie persons who take ANY criticism of the Collie Club of
>America very personally. You can see the different styles as it rotates
>from one TROLL to the next.
Nice try Leslie, but no cigar. Number 1, I was never on the Collie e-mail
list. Following you around??? In your dreams Leslie! I wrote you
previously regarding some garbage you were ranting and raving about on the
Collie List (the Gazette column, remember?). A kind individual sent me
copies of your posts. You didn't unsubscribe from the list---you were
kicked off---suspended. "Discreetly" you say? That's a funny one!!!!
Somehow that is not a description I would ever think of in reference to
you. Must be another famous Mamer joke! For your information, the now
famous CCAPITA, troll or whatever you choose to call me, is one person
and always has been. No one takes turns, although I have to admit, there
are several hundred people who would love to give it a try! Not one
person knows the true identity of CCAPITA. "Afraid of being traced?" I
mean really Leslie-- Shame on you! Who is going to trace me?? The
Internet cops?? "Screeching"?? I don't think so, but that does sound a
bit like you. "Evidence, transcripts, depositions...blah, blah, blah".
Garbage in--Garbage out! Everyone knows your involvement in the Pierce
affair was for your own glorification and nothing more. It gave you lots
of practice at grandstanding and posturing. You prevented Dan from
getting the kind of sentence he deserved and you further undermined the
entire case by flying off the handle with wild accusations, levelled at
everyone he knew or had close dealings with. BORING! Quite frankly, I am
not interested in a pissing contest with you--I am just interested in
telling it like it is! And at the same time, informing others about what
a phony you are--full of garbage and hot air. BTW, you and I both know
everything I wrote about you and your dogs at the National, was true. Ask
the breeders involved. Why was the one TOP breeder screaming and swearing
at you?? Huh??? I won't mention names out of respect for their privacy,
but you know who they are and lots of other people heard the entire sordid
affair. One nice thing about being a troll and being anonymous---you
can't reduce the argument to racial, sexual or personal attacks because
you know nothing about me. That must kill you! The great Leslie Mamer's
hands tied--- can't come up with hits below the belt. Too bad, huh?
Keep up the good work Leslie--your excellent work continues to make you
look stupid and foolish, not to mention sick, petty, and very very
tiring. BORING!!
jon...@telenet.net
Hello, TROLL!
>
> Forwarded to this Newsgroup per CCAPITA's request:
>
> Oh, Leslie, you are a such legend in your own mind!
>
<snipped>
>information, Mrs. Leonard did not make any statements regarding Mary Ann
> Keefer. Number one, why would the club want to examine Mary Ann's part?
> Not only was she not convicted of ANY crime, but it was never proven that
> she had any connection whatsoever to the sordid Pierce mess. The remarks
Really? Neither was Joe Latz conviced of any crime. But, gosh, he lived
in the same house as Dan.
> you attribute to Mrs. Leonard are completely fabricated--you must have
> heard them in your dreams.
No, she heard them the same place as everyone else on the collie list.. a
forwarded message from Carol Zielke to the list. Happy?
Secondly, Mrs. Leonard as the club secretary,
> is not the "administrator of the membership" roster. Nor does she have
> the authorization to admit or exclude any members from the CCA.
> Certainly, even you must realize this. You know Leslie, something has
> become very obvious--you continue to include Mrs. Leonard in most of your
> personal vendettas and attacks. It is very apparent, that you are so
> jealous of her success and influence, and her club stature, that you can't
> stand it. Let me explain something to you--in terms you can relate
> to--you aren't even a pimple on her ass!
>
Read the CCA Constitution, TROLL. Since you seem to be willing to stand
up for this, look under the fact that the SECRETARY *IS* responsible for
maintaining the OFFICIAL MEMBERSHIP LIST!
<snipped>
> BTW, in case you weren't aware of it--thanks to your efforts, the Dan
> Pierce prosecution case was completely undermined. Because of your
> barrage of insults, abuse, and harassment, the prosecution smelled another
> rat. The integrity of the entire investigation was compromised, thanks
> solely to you. You exploited the whole affair for your own glorification
> and gratification. Furthermore, your continued tirades removed any hope
> of any of the witnesses ever testifying. YOU MS. MAMER ARE THE SOLE
> REASON DAN PIERCE RECEIVED SUCH A LIGHT SENTENCE, WITH NOTHING MORE THAN A
> SLAP ON THE WRIST! You are still at it, egging Dan and others on--even
> bringing his sexual preferences into it (like that has anything to do with
> the situation!).
>
Yeah, right. The *fact* that Mary Shingle, Mary Anne Keefer, et.al.
refused to testify had *nothing* to do with it, would it? Have you
*ever* heard of a case where a DA knew there was publicity, had a lawyer
*hired by collie fanciers* looking over his shoulder, had a number of
collie breeders *IN THE COURTROOM*, and plea bargained for *less*? Come
on.. what is *your* fevered imagination?
> Speaking of abuse and cruelty to animals---I bet you never brag about the
> 1996 Columbus National, when you arrived with your nasty dogs in tow???
> Remember the fights with several people over the conditions and general
> state of your dogs? Remember how soiled, filthy, dirty and spooky they
> were? Remember all the fighting? And you my dear, criticize others
> regarding the care of their dogs? I mean really Leslie, pinch
> yourself--it's time for a reality check! If I remember correctly (in
> listening to all the shouting and commotion), certain people did not want
> the dogs bred by them and now owned by you, to be shown. They considered
> it an embarrassment not only to themselves, but most of all, to the dogs
> because of their condition (i.e. poop and urine stained, dirty,
> undernourished and prick-eared). All of the breeders, without exception,
> were sorry they had ever sold you the dogs in the first place. One
> breeder who screamed at you, even refused to handle one of your dogs.
> Remember all this? Hmmm?? Why haven't you been bragging about this on
> the newsgroup??
>
Really? What an imagination *you* have. Unfortunately for *you*, I WAS
THERE! I helped unload those dogs, I helped groom them. They were *not*
poop and urine stained. Malnourished? Sorry, if anything they were
slightly overweight. They weren't prick eared either. How would I know
this? I actually saw the dogs, I had my hands on them, and handled one
of them myself.
I was also there when Leslie brought out one of those breeders, who also
happened to co-own one of the dogs. *HE* didn't see anything wrong. In
fact, Leslie made the offer to him to take the dog back, if he felt the
dog was being mistreated, or was in poor condition! His response? "No,
they look good. No need for that."
Obviously you were either *not* at the National, or, if you were, you
never bothered to join the parade of breeders who went out and looked for
themselves - and saw nothing wrong. Why don't you get *your* facts
straight!
> Oh and by the way Leslie, a word of advice--don't ever let your CCA
> membership lapse! This I know to be a fact--you will never get back into
> the club! You are "ashamed to be a member of CCA"?? Guess what? It
> won't take much imagination to figure this one out----the club and its
> members look at you in shame AND pity. And BTW, go ahead and run for
> office--that will be good for a couple of laughs. How many votes last
> time--26? Even people you consider your friends laugh behind your back.
> One of your friends, Athena says you need a permanant choke collar! Ask
> your friend Doug about some of his private comments. They make for great
> reading. The trash annihilating the trash!
>
You haven't looked at the vote totals from the last election.. try 10
times higher. There is nothing that I have said in any private e-mail
that I haven't said to Leslie. Nice try at "divide and conquer" though.
> Congratulations, YOU Leslie Mamer--breeder of one champion--abuser of your
> own dogs--Dan Pierce's Salvation--Keep up the great work!!!!!!
>
> The Real CCAPITA
> No imitation here!!!
> Be sure and visit my web site (under construction) exposing Ms. Mamer for
> the charlatan, fake and fraud she is! See her own dogs that she
> abused--pictures from the 1996 National!!
> **********
> Remember Leslie Mamer!
> NEVER FORGET LESLIE MAMER SET DAN PIERCE FREE!!!!!
I'll love to see your site. It'll help me get an idea as to who you
really are. Right now, I just see yet another gutless wonder of a TROLL
who hides behind a stupid AOL Screen name. This seems to be a habit with
the CCA people.
Doug Jones
Meridel1
>Once again. There is NO time limit specified in the CCA Constitution
>for re-instatement. That is a *POLICY*, not something in the
>Constitution.
Doug,
You are right and I am wrong - as far as my quoting the constitution is
concerned and I apologize.
However, the time limit for reinstatement is not just "policy" as you
state, it is a *standing rule* that was voted on and approved by the EC
back in 1990 and it is this info through the communiques, that I was
confusing with the constitution. After a time period of one year,
following the year of non-payment, a new application is required to be
submitted, along, of course, with EC approval.
Meredith
Doug Jones
cca...@aol.com (CCAPita) wrote:
>Nice try Leslie, but no cigar. Number 1, I was never on the Collie e-mail
>list. Following you around??? In your dreams Leslie! I wrote you
>previously regarding some garbage you were ranting and raving about on the
>Collie List (the Gazette column, remember?). A kind individual sent me
>copies of your posts. You didn't unsubscribe from the list---you were
Hate to break this to you, TROLL, but Leslie unsubscribed from the
list 2 days before being "kicked".
>are several hundred people who would love to give it a try! Not one
>person knows the true identity of CCAPITA. "Afraid of being traced?" I
>mean really Leslie-- Shame on you! Who is going to trace me?? The
>Internet cops?? "Screeching"?? I don't think so, but that does sound a
Actually, listening to you, I'm getting a pretty good idea of who you
are. Keep posting, *TROLL*. Put up your web page.
>bit like you. "Evidence, transcripts, depositions...blah, blah, blah".
>Garbage in--Garbage out! Everyone knows your involvement in the Pierce
>affair was for your own glorification and nothing more. It gave you lots
>of practice at grandstanding and posturing. You prevented Dan from
>getting the kind of sentence he deserved and you further undermined the
>entire case by flying off the handle with wild accusations, levelled at
>everyone he knew or had close dealings with.
Yeah, right. BULLSHIT. You forget who broke the story on the Collie
list.
>BORING! Quite frankly, I am
>not interested in a pissing contest with you--I am just interested in
>telling it like it is! And at the same time, informing others about what
>a phony you are--full of garbage and hot air. BTW, you and I both know
>everything I wrote about you and your dogs at the National, was true. Ask
>the breeders involved. Why was the one TOP breeder screaming and swearing
>at you?? Huh??? I won't mention names out of respect for their privacy,
>but you know who they are and lots of other people heard the entire sordid
>affair. One nice thing about being a troll and being anonymous---you
>can't reduce the argument to racial, sexual or personal attacks because
>you know nothing about me. That must kill you! The great Leslie Mamer's
>hands tied--- can't come up with hits below the belt. Too bad, huh?
>Keep up the good work Leslie--your excellent work continues to make you
>look stupid and foolish, not to mention sick, petty, and very very
>tiring. BORING!!
>
Really. TROLL. I was there. I heard that "Top breeder" screaming.
I happen to have known that same breeder for more than 10 years. Read
my other post, TROLL. That particular breeder was having a conniption
fit over *nothing*. That's right. They were running around ranting
and raving over something that didn't exist. I stood right there when
they were doing it.. and told them flat out that they were wrong.
Want to know something else? Not once did they bother to go talk to
Leslie herself. This "TOP BREEDER" spent the entire show running
around ranting and raving, and despite being told SEVERAL times by
myself and others to talk to Leslie, they *DIDN'T*.
Anything else you'd like to say? I guess it *is* true that venomous
creatures are immune to their own poison!
Doug Jones
Meridel1
>WHERE does it sate this phantom 1 year moritorium you speak of. Perhaps
>you should read it for yourself and then identify where you are drawing
>your reference from.
You're right, Laurie and I issued an apology to Doug, under this header
elsewhere in this newsgroup. I also identified the source of my
reference: it's a standing rule that the EC had voted on back in 1990;
apparently I was just confusing the two documents and I apologize for any
misunderstanding that may have caused.
Meredith
CCAPita
Oh Doug!
How disappointing-even from you I expected better. What a weak response!
It figures that you would jump in-just a matter of time-something I
expected. Mamer can't fight her own battles effectively, so bring in the
discontented masses (Where's Del-with his verbiage of robed society, hoods
and the Klan?). You guys always say and write the same thing. You all
think alike and write alike, but overall say nothing. As I wrote-Garbage
in-Garbage out. It's just sour grapes Doug-you were denied membership
overwhelmingly in a club you despise with a vengeance (only twice has this
ever happened in club history). Your reputation was trashed from your
days of the Collie Review where you managed to bluster, lie, trash and
bash, with no effect whatsoever, other than to "do" yourself and the
magazine in--BUT that's another story!! "You have a pretty good idea who
I am"---Right Doug-sure thing. You might think you know, but you don't.
Remember, I am scores of people each taking their turn, poking and
punishing all of you??? Beside what if you do know?? So, big deal! "You
were there" at the National-Oh excuse me, I forgot that you and Mamer were
roommates (who was on top Doug??) You two had better get your stories
straight--Mamer says nothing happened--THEN you say nothing happened--BUT
THEN you say, "that particular breeder was having a conniption over
nothing"-then you say "they" were running around---which story is it-hers
or yours (story #1 or #2?)---they--them? What's going on here, huh???
Personally I trust my own eyes and ears far more than any of yours! I saw
and heard what happened and I saw the poorly kept dogs (how come none of
her dogs live very long-hmmm?). Oh and BTW--would you like me to post your
private comments made by yourself about Leslie?? Hmmm?? One more thing
about Dan Pierce---Leslie's total irrational behavior during the entire
affair, scared the living daylights out of the investigators and the
prosecuting attorneys AND the witnesses. Too bad Doug-you flunk, but you
never were much good at anything-- except making yourself look like an
idiot. You do it so effectively!!!
BTW--you don't need my web site to determine who I am ---Remember
Doug--you already know!!
Delmont & Laurie Fredricks
In article <8707332...@dejanews.com>, jon...@telenet.net says...
>
>
> Ahh... so *I'm* responsible for the Review's demise. New take on
things.
> Actually, I've got you narrowed down to two people. Initials DF or GK.
> Am I close? ;-)
>
Well I should probably jump in here with the Robed Society comment, but
will leave that to another famous person who likes to compare the Club to
the KKK. Remember that little comment, but another supporter like this
Pita drone?
FYI CCAPita, you might want to go back an review some history to see who
REALLY made the KKK comment. Actually it was made on the BEHALF OF THE
CCA to justify the two members in the history of the Club who were
discriminated against. Do you need it spelled out for you.
I certainly hope that DF stand for the great and almighty Dante and not
myself. Actually the Review demise comment was *VERY* revealing.
The Garbage-In, Garbage-Out comment was quite true though. CCAPita has
been spewing garbage ever since she dreamed up this little screen name
for her AOL account. But then what can one expect from a drone troll who
needs to have everything dictated to them.
Would love to continue this little flame war, but feel just a little
guilty about entering a battle of wits with an unarmed opponent.
Besides, it is something that is inappropriate for an open forum. But
then, CCAPita is not a person who can hold their own in a private forum,
at least judging from the way she blocks mail from those she vehemently
maligns in open forums.
Dogman
On a cold day in Hell, 4 Aug 1997 02:38:28 GMT, cca...@aol.com
(CCAPita) wrote:
>>Mamer writes---->THIS TROLL who has been following me around for several
>>months.
[...]
>Nice try Leslie, but no cigar. Number 1, I was never on the Collie e-mail
>list. Following you around??? In your dreams Leslie! I wrote you
>previously regarding some garbage you were ranting and raving about on the
>Collie List (the Gazette column, remember?). A kind individual sent me
>copies of your posts. You didn't unsubscribe from the list---you were
>kicked off---suspended. "Discreetly" you say? That's a funny one!!!!
>Somehow that is not a description I would ever think of in reference to
>you. Must be another famous Mamer joke! For your information, the now
>famous CCAPITA, troll or whatever you choose to call me, is one person
>and always has been. No one takes turns, although I have to admit, there
>are several hundred people who would love to give it a try!
Who are these "several hundred people", CCAPITA? And WHY would they
want to harass and censure Leslie?
>Everyone knows your involvement in the Pierce
>affair was for your own glorification and nothing more.
And just how do you know that? Huh? HOW?
>It gave you lots
>of practice at grandstanding and posturing.
TRANSLATION: Leslie, be quiet, damn it, we don't want the whole world
to know how the Collie Club of America CONTRIBUTED to Dan Pierce's
HORRIFIC CRIMES.
That just about covers it, doesn't it CCAPITA?
>You prevented Dan from
>getting the kind of sentence he deserved and you further undermined the
>entire case by flying off the handle with wild accusations, levelled at
>everyone he knew or had close dealings with.
Let's see here. By your way of thinking, we shouldn't have wasted our
precious time having those silly trials in Nuremberg, either, eh?
I mean, Hitler was already dead, so why should we bother with those
people who were just CLOSE TO HIM, eh?
People like Herman Goering, Joseph Mengela, Adolph Eichmann, Rudolph
Hess, Hans Frank, Wilhelm Frick, Julius Streicher, Walter Funk, Alfred
Jodl, Martin Bormann, Albert Speer, et al.
Yeah, right.
>BORING!
OIC...what happened to Dan Pierce's collies is "boring," eh?
I think that says more about you than about Leslie, eh?
>Quite frankly, I am
>not interested in a pissing contest with you--I am just interested in
>telling it like it is!
If that were true, you'd be SUPPORTING Leslie, not harassing or
censuring her!
> One nice thing about being a troll and being anonymous---you
>can't reduce the argument to racial, sexual or personal attacks because
>you know nothing about me.
I think personal attacks are pretty good medicine for the people who
had anything to do with HELPING DAN PIERCE perpetrate his CRIME
against humanity, don't you?
Actually, I think public HANGINGS would be even BETTER medicine.
And there's another thing about being a troll: You can LIE THROUGH
YOUR FREAKIN' TEETH and no one can do much about it, can they?
Why don't you come out from behind that curtain and tell us who you
really are? Are you the Wizard? Or are you the Wicked Witch of the
West?
Yeah, that's what I thought. You're JEANNE WELSH, Lochwynde Collies
(i.e., "Herman Goering").
[...]
>Keep up the good work Leslie--
[...]
Personally, I hope she does. And I think a LOT of people around here
will try to help her in any way they can.
--
Dogman
qbt...@v1.arg
E-mail address rot13 encoded to foil advertising spam
Join in the hunt for NicKenChip! (our resident TROLL) <<-- A "must see" for newbies!
http://www.i1.net/~dogman/thehunt.htm
As of July 30, 1997 there are now 37 aliases on The Sybil List!
Remember the Pierce collies!
http://www.i1.net/~dogman/pierce.htm
"Scenes From A Death Camp"
On retriever field trials!
http://www.i1.net/~dogman/ontrials.htm
Retriever Field Trial News
http://www.retrievernews.com
IamPitbull
GO PITA GO----------
jon...@telenet.net
In article <19970804151...@ladder01.news.aol.com>,
cca...@aol.com (CCAPita) wrote:
>
> Oh Doug!
>
> How disappointing-even from you I expected better. What a weak response!
> It figures that you would jump in-just a matter of time-something I
> expected. Mamer can't fight her own battles effectively, so bring in the
> discontented masses (Where's Del-with his verbiage of robed society, hoods
> and the Klan?). You guys always say and write the same thing. You all
> think alike and write alike, but overall say nothing. As I wrote-Garbage
> in-Garbage out. It's just sour grapes Doug-you were denied membership
> overwhelmingly in a club you despise with a vengeance (only twice has this
> ever happened in club history). Your reputation was trashed from your
Yes, I suppose in your twisted imagination, that a 22-15 vote (15 votes
against) could be considered "overwhelming". Let's talk about the
*other* example, shall we? That a "well-known" breeder felt it incumbent
to run around making phone calls trashing this other person's reputation?
Despite the fact that this person had been an officer of several major
collie clubs, and co-chair of the National Seminar? Would you like to
know who was calling around about me? They're now an officer, you know.
> days of the Collie Review where you managed to bluster, lie, trash and
> bash, with no effect whatsoever, other than to "do" yourself and the
> magazine in--BUT that's another story!! "You have a pretty good idea who
> I am"---Right Doug-sure thing. You might think you know, but you don't.
Ahh... so *I'm* responsible for the Review's demise. New take on things.
Actually, I've got you narrowed down to two people. Initials DF or GK.
Am I close? ;-)
> Remember, I am scores of people each taking their turn, poking and
> punishing all of you??? Beside what if you do know?? So, big deal! "You
> were there" at the National-Oh excuse me, I forgot that you and Mamer were
> roommates (who was on top Doug??) You two had better get your stories
> straight--Mamer says nothing happened--THEN you say nothing happened--BUT
> THEN you say, "that particular breeder was having a conniption over
> nothing"-then you say "they" were running around---which story is it-hers
> or yours (story #1 or #2?)---they--them? What's going on here, huh???
> Personally I trust my own eyes and ears far more than any of yours! I saw
> and heard what happened and I saw the poorly kept dogs (how come none of
> her dogs live very long-hmmm?). Oh and BTW--would you like me to post your
> private comments made by yourself about Leslie?? Hmmm?? One more thing
> about Dan Pierce---Leslie's total irrational behavior during the entire
> affair, scared the living daylights out of the investigators and the
> prosecuting attorneys AND the witnesses. Too bad Doug-you flunk, but you
> never were much good at anything-- except making yourself look like an
> idiot. You do it so effectively!!!
>
Really? I see. So, you admit that I *WOULD* have personal knowledge of
the state of Leslie's dogs. Considering that the youngest dog there was
6.. and the rest were entered in *VETERANS* 8 and older or up.... How is
*that* not living long? I really doubt that you actually bothered to see
the dogs.
Another apologist for Dan, too. Do you believe his story that this was
all concocted by jealous collie breeders? I'm sure you do. Suuure
Leslie scared off a DA. Yeah, right. Any other fantasies you'd like to
regale us with? Keep posting, TROLL. Let the world see what sort of
people supported Dan.
> BTW--you don't need my web site to determine who I am ---Remember
> Doug--you already know!!
Yes.. I have pretty good idea, TROLL. I haven't seen your web site yet,
either. I doubt I will. There's nothing like the light to kill a troll.
scr...@scritto.com
Let me say first that I am hated in this newsgroup as well as others. That's
okay. I have done my research on the thread in DejaNews. I have visited Leslie
Mamer's website. Leslie Mamer and Dogman are both in my killfile. I only believe
half of what I hear and see, and then I only half-believe. I don't care for
breeders, responsible or otherwise. I *know* the Internet is an excellent
resource and tool to desseminate information. It is also a cesspool of
propaganda and time-wasters. I *know* cruelty exists. I think people who care
enough to take action agaisnt cruelty should be lauded for their efforts. I
think people who think they know better than those directly involved would be
better served if they kept to logic and refrained from name-calling and making
derogatory personal, racist or sexist remarks. I *know* a headline such as
COLLIE CLUB OF AMERICA BETRAYS BREED can be considered libel. I think asking
questions is the only way to get to the truth, so: what is so objectionable
and/or reprehensible about Leslie Mamer's website? - Michelle
------------------------------------------------------------------------
To save time and energy on everyone's part, the following people are in
my killfile and I do not entertain e-mail from them: Andrew Mandeville,
Anne Sweeney, Bun Mui (Patrick Chung), Buran, C, dissident, Donald Yee, Engdome,
J Matthew Greene, Jim Tsou, Moe, Richard Lee, SAGE (and aliases), Gina-D (and
aliases), MoinA, Shabati, Gruengtep, Alicia Knapp, Anne Green, Anthony Russo,
BHK, Bob Maida, BOZO, Candace A. Hume, Carrie Morton, Carol
Dunster, Cat & Ace, CelticPhD (Leslie) ChBoxers(Joyce), Cindii, Christy
Overmann, Cindy O'Neal, Confucious, Daisy, Denna Lasik, Dennis Gare, Dogman, Ed,
Francis Farmer, Garrison St. Clair, Gary & Lois Edwards, Glenn (yakkety-yak),
Gman, Hastini, Jake Stone, Jane Webb, JaymeJ, Jeanne Figolah Jeremy Wilson, Joan
Lasz, Joyce Roberts, Joy P. Vidheecharoen-Glatz, Kieron Dodds, Korat, Lablover,
Leslie Mamer, Liz Bauer, Lwcollier, Marie Moore, Mary Kennedy, McKim, Mishelle
Fresener, Mojo's Mum (Terri/Dognus), Mtmn(Alan Stuart), Mushroom, Nancy Holmes,
Negativecreep, Ricardo Cabeza, Rick Ellis, Robert Crim, Roxanne Neufeld, Ruth
Mays, Sandra Pover, Saxon Brown, Stacy Ferguson, Steve Barnard, Sue Abbott,
Susan Mudgett, Tibbi Scott, Timothy Riordan, Vera Casteel, Virginia Elliot,
William Reeds, Yorstrooly, Yvette Hebb. This list will be upated periodically.
ITrainDogs
>Subject: Re: COLLIE CLUB OF AMERICA BETRAYS BREED!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
>From: qbt...@v1.arg (Dogman)
>Date: Mon, 04 Aug 1997 19:52:35 GMT
>Message-ID: <33f132fa...@news1.i1.net>
>
>I think personal attacks are pretty good medicine for the people who
>had anything to do with HELPING DAN PIERCE perpetrate his CRIME
>against humanity, don't you?
>
>Actually, I think public HANGINGS would be even BETTER medicine.
>
>And there's another thing about being a troll: You can LIE THROUGH
>YOUR FREAKIN' TEETH and no one can do much about it, can they?
>
>Why don't you come out from behind that curtain and tell us who you
>really are? Are you the Wizard? Or are you the Wicked Witch of the
>West?
>
>Yeah, that's what I thought. You're JEANNE WELSH, Lochwynde Collies
>(i.e., "Herman Goering").
>
>[...]
>>Keep up the good work Leslie--
>[...]
>
>Personally, I hope she does. And I think a LOT of people around here
>will try to help her in any way they can.
>
>
>
>--
>Dogman
>qbt...@v1.arg
>E-mail address rot13 encoded to foil advertising spam
>
Hey! I have heard enough of this slandering and preaching hate on this
group. There is no evidence that Jeanne Welsh sent that message. Dogman
this is just another opportunity for you to hook your dirty teeth into
someone for more of your slander!
If you cared about dogs at all you would being doing something to help
prevent the millions of dogs in death camps, from being put down, at the
humane societies all over this country.
Let's all try and forget the Pierce Collies and move on. This is turning
into a slaughter house and I'm personally tired of reading about it.
Move on!
And Dogman you owe Jeanne Welsh one BIG apology if you are man enough!
-Barbara Greenall
CCAPita
Doug Jones writes:
>Yes, I suppose in your twisted imagination, that a 22-15 vote (15 votes
>against) could be considered "overwhelming". Let's talk about the
>*other* example, shall we? That a "well-known" breeder felt it incumbent
>to run around making phone calls trashing this other person's reputation?
> Despite the fact that this person had been an officer of several major
>collie clubs, and co-chair of the National Seminar? Would you like to
>know who was calling around about me? They're now an officer, you know>.
The vote was not 22-15. Nice try Doug!!
>Ahh... so *I'm* responsible for the Review's demise. New take on things.
>Actually, I've got you narrowed down to two people. Initials DF or GK.
>Am I close? ;-)
Not even close, although I am flattered. You think those are the only
two people in the country blaming you for the Review's belly up? I don't
think so Doug--the entire country knows of your shameless involvement. It
has been no secret. Besides which, both of those individuals have never
been afraid to attach their names to what they write. Let me put it this
way--so you can understand--- I have a tad more to lose. You have no
idea--no one does--not Leslie--not any of your cohorts! You would
probably be completely surprised! So far, all guesses have been way off
base, but very entertaining!
>Really? I see. So, you admit that I *WOULD* have personal knowledge of
Actually I never suggested that you had any kind of knowledge of anything.
Where did you get that idea??. From your posts--it appears you are
grasping at straws---and totally on the defensive---not a very good
position!
>the state of Leslie's dogs. Considering that the youngest dog there was
>6.. and the rest were entered in *VETERANS* 8 and older or up.... How is
>*that* not living long? I really doubt that you actually bothered to see
>the dogs.
Which story is it Doug?
>Another apologist for Dan, too. Do you believe his story that this was
>all concocted by jealous collie breeders? I'm sure you do. Suuure
Actually I am a firm believer that Dan was guilty as hell and should have
received a prison sentence. What goes around, comes around and he will
get his someday, somewhere, but it won't be because of you people who
continue to rant and rave like lunatics, claiming all the credit for
exposing him. WRONG again Doug!!!!!!.
>Leslie scared off a DA. Yeah, right. Any other fantasies you'd like to
>regale us with? Keep posting, TROLL. Let the world see what sort of
>people supported Dan.
>Yes.. I have pretty good idea, TROLL. I haven't seen your web site yet,
>either. I doubt I will. There's nothing like the light to kill a troll.
>
>Doug Jones
Bye Doug--have a nice day and continue groping in the dark! I will let
you know when the web site is done!
Leslie Mamer
On 5 Aug 1997 02:12:33 GMT, itrai...@aol.com (ITrainDogs) wrote:
>Hey! I have heard enough of this slandering and preaching hate on this
>group. There is no evidence that Jeanne Welsh sent that message. Dogman
>this is just another opportunity for you to hook your dirty teeth into
>someone for more of your slander!
>
>If you cared about dogs at all you would being doing something to help
>prevent the millions of dogs in death camps, from being put down, at the
>humane societies all over this country.
>
>Let's all try and forget the Pierce Collies and move on. This is turning
>into a slaughter house and I'm personally tired of reading about it.
>
>Move on!
>
>And Dogman you owe Jeanne Welsh one BIG apology if you are man enough!
>
>
>-Barbara Greenall
Barbara,
FORGET????? You want people to take up YOUR standard when, to actually do
the job right from it's foundation, the members of the breed clubs could
and should be policing their own! Most parent clubs don't permit sales to
pet stores or brokers. However, what about the clubs, like the Collie Club,
that DO NOT enforce their own Codes of Ethics??!! Worse yet, they turn a
deliberately blind eye and clap their hands over their collective (at the
Officer level) mouths - "See No Evil; Hear No Evil; Speak No Evil" - and
deliberately AVOID offering the membership a position statement on what, if
any, should be considered when faced with an open and shut case/conviction
of cruelty, abuse and neglect within their own breed!!
The topic originated with the information that Dan's
co-breeder/partner/neighbor/friend Mary Ann Keefer had been reinstated to
full membership without inquiry or examination of her role. Her ROLE is
established in the transcripts, and is even described in the Shingle
letter. But since you seem to need some form of "physical proof", try THIS:
ADDRESS FOR DAN PIERCE:
25391 Penrose Rd.
Quaker City, OH 43773
ADDRESS FOR MARY ANN KEEFER BEFORE APRIL 1997:
25301 Penrose Rd.
Quaker City, OH 43773
Notice anything FAMILIAR Barbara??? Oh, but then you want to FORGET, like
Jeanne Welch. I suppose that you could live down the road (this is a rural
area) from Pierce and DO NOTHING, TOO!!!
You don't like this thread?? Get off of it. Use your "skip" button or
"delete" key. And remain oblivious to the fact that other breeds have their
versions of "Dan Pierce" who DO get away with murder. By using the internet
to share the incident, the outcome and even the gruesome details, it has
helped other people and clubs with a METHOD of monitoring such cases. It
has also educated persons who WANT to PREVENT further acts by such
individuals, no matter how "highly esteemed" because they show/breed/handle
a National Specialty winner, by sharing procedures and resources.
Want an example between PROACTIVE and INACTIVE?? Check out the 10 year
suspension for DAVID RAMSEY, top breeder/handler/owner of BEDLINGTON
TERRIERS for being convicted of 13 counts of cruelty and neglect!! Maybe
the difference was that no animals died. Maybe the difference was that he
was the Group winner at the Garden this year. Or maybe the difference was
that the Bedlington folks couldn't flood the law enforcement authorities or
AKC as well as we could because of sheer numbers (more Collies/fanciers)
through internet/fax/e-mail communications. I don't know but I did try to
locate a parent club contact source through net searches, to no avail. But
hey, 10 years for Ramsey is a helluva lot better than NOTHING -
particularly since Rhode Island has barred him from posessing any animals
and gave him jail time to boot. That was largely due to the media coverage
of the case. So in Pierce's case, given his rural area of Ohio's penchant
for blowing off animal cruelty, if there had been NO coordinated
communications monitoring the spectacle, just what do you think might have
been the result, HHMMMMMMM???????? He would have gotten the plea bargain he
wanted: LITTERING!!!! (No joke here.)
BTW, if Dogman says it's Jeanne Welch then I'm apt to believe him. He's got
a pretty good record when it comes to tracking and killing TROLLS.
Interesting that Welch, who has lurked around the Usegroups, hasn't made
her own reply, but thinks herself pretty handy with a knife via e-mail! She
can take care of herself.
Leslie Mamer
Heirlair Collies
#1 PITA to CCA/CCAF
*******
Remember the Pierce Collies!
http://ic.net/~dwayne/pierce
"Scenes From A Death Camp"
ITrainDogs
>Subject: Re: COLLIE CLUB OF AMERICA BETRAYS BREED!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
>Date: Tue, 05 Aug 1997 07:25:23 GMT
>Message-ID: <33e6c076...@news.navix.net>
>BTW, if Dogman says it's Jeanne Welch then I'm apt to believe him. He's
got
>a pretty good record when it comes to tracking and killing TROLLS.
>Interesting that Welch, who has lurked around the Usegroups, hasn't made
>her own reply, but thinks herself pretty handy with a knife via e-mail!
She
>can take care of herself.
>
>
>Leslie Mamer
I've spoken to Jeanne Welsh. She was ready to retrieve her bitch when all
hell broke loose! You and your cronies calling the prosecutor and making a
carnival out of the criminal justice system, just to satisfy your own
agenda.
Me thinks you are lonely and have nothing else better to do with your
life. Quit thriving on the negative and enjoy the positive side of your
life. If there is one.
If you believe everything Dogman says I've got some cheap beach front
property for sale in Arizona.
-Barbara Greenall
Dogman
On a cold day in Hell, Tue, 05 Aug 1997 07:25:23 GMT, Barbara
Greenall itrai...@aol.comlb34002 wrote:
>On 5 Aug 1997 02:12:33 GMT, itrai...@aol.com (ITrainDogs) wrote:
>
>>Hey! I have heard enough of this slandering and preaching hate on this
>>group.
You mean I SHOULDN'T hate what Dan Pierce and his CRONIES did to those
poor collies, eh?
Is that what you're saying here, Babs? Geeeez. You wackos deserve
everything you're getting.
>>There is no evidence that Jeanne Welsh sent that message. Dogman
>>this is just another opportunity for you to hook your dirty teeth into
>>someone for more of your slander!
Well, maggot, I do enjoy hooking my teeth into slimeball scumbags,
that's for sure. But I'm saving all my real anger for when I meet Dan
Pierce someday. If you see him, tell him that, eh?
As far as slander goes, as they say in Palermo, Sicily: Via in culo!
Andate tutti a 'fanculo!
I THINK that post was made by Jeanne Welsh and that's my privilege in
a free country. I can even THINK that YOU'RE an asshole, eh?
But if that post (and the other posts) wasn't made by Welsh, she
should just come here and say so, eh? Instead of HIDING behind the
curtain of anonymity.
>>If you cared about dogs at all you would being doing something to help
>>prevent the millions of dogs in death camps, from being put down, at the
>>humane societies all over this country.
Well, Babs, as someone who has for almost 25 years worked PRO BONO
rehabilitating shelter dogs for ADOPTION, I feel uniquely qualified to
tell you to stick it in your freakin' ear.
By the way, Babs, what the hell have YOU ever done about those poor
shelter dogs? Huh? What?
>>Let's all try and forget the Pierce Collies and move on.
OIC...you want to FORGET about those poor dogs, eh? Well, asshole,
I'm going to see to it that those dogs are NEVER forgotten.
I'm going to rub your freakin' nose in those pictures until you and
all the other "Dan Fans" puke all over your freakin' Gucci loafers,
you compassionless commode-dwelling carpsucker!
We're NEVER going to forget the Jeffrey Dahmers, Andrew Cunanans,
Charles Mansons, John Wayne Gacys, OR the DAN PIERCES of the world!
And if you don't like it, stick it in your freakin' ear.
>>This is turning
>>into a slaughter house and I'm personally tired of reading about it.
Well you ain't seen nothing yet, Babs. Stick around. There's lots
more to come!
>>Move on!
Stick it in your ear!
>>And Dogman you owe Jeanne Welsh one BIG apology if you are man enough!
Yo! Babs! You will see the Cubs in the World Series before you ever
witness an apology by me to Jeanne Welsh! That just ain't gonna ever
happen. I guarantee it!
So go stick it in your ear, eh? Yes, AGAIN!
--
Dogman
qbt...@v1.arg
E-mail address rot13 encoded to foil advertising spam
Join in the hunt for NicKenChip! (our resident TROLL) <<-- A "must see" for newbies!
http://www.i1.net/~dogman/thehunt.htm
As of July 30, 1997 there are now 37 aliases on The Sybil List!
Remember the Pierce collies!
http://www.i1.net/~dogman/pierce.htm
"Scenes From A Death Camp"
On retriever field trials!
IamPitbull
What an appropriate heading. Not only does Leslie Mamer betray justice,
but she betrays the club she is a member of, the Collie Club of America
and the breed. She gives the Collie breed a bad name. She needs to get a
productive life. Go out and buy one, do whatever you have to do. It is
obvious you don't work because you wouldn't have so much free time on your
hands to be bashing everyone over the head. If you aren't going on and on
regarding Dan Pierce (a dead issue with most people) then you are
attacking everyone who doesn't agree with you. You, as well as others on
this list, must have nothing better to do than to live, eat and breathe
these newsgroups. You and Dogman sound like one and the same person. You
both want dissension and disruption in your lives. You must crave it.
Grow up and get a life! Time to move on to other things.
Doug Jones
cca...@aol.com (CCAPita) wrote:
<snipped>
>>Ahh... so *I'm* responsible for the Review's demise. New take on things.
>>Actually, I've got you narrowed down to two people. Initials DF or GK.
>>Am I close? ;-)
>
>Not even close, although I am flattered. You think those are the only
>two people in the country blaming you for the Review's belly up? I don't
>think so Doug--the entire country knows of your shameless involvement. It
>has been no secret. Besides which, both of those individuals have never
>been afraid to attach their names to what they write. Let me put it this
>way--so you can understand--- I have a tad more to lose. You have no
>idea--no one does--not Leslie--not any of your cohorts! You would
>probably be completely surprised! So far, all guesses have been way off
>base, but very entertaining!
>
Gee, and it only took me 7 years of writing for the Review to kill it!
Gosh, I must have been doing something wrong. I did send your little
"blame Doug" over to Leslie Rugg.. it gave her a good laugh. Thanks
for helping lighten up someone's day.
I'm glad you have more to lose.. it'll be that much more fun when I
*do* pull you out into the light! BTW, *don't* think that an AOL
account is going to make you safe. ;-) There's been a history of
identifying TROLLS on this newsgroup.
>>Really? I see. So, you admit that I *WOULD* have personal knowledge of
>
>Actually I never suggested that you had any kind of knowledge of anything.
> Where did you get that idea??. From your posts--it appears you are
>grasping at straws---and totally on the defensive---not a very good
>position!
>
No. You are twisting in the wind. You questioned my knowledge of the
state of Leslie's dogs at the '96 National... and then proceeded to
confirm that I would have indeed had such knowledge. Although you
do, typical of trolls, have to cloak it with a lot of innuendo.
You know, I sort of like the KKK motif.. it reminds me of you.. hooded
and cowardly.
>>the state of Leslie's dogs. Considering that the youngest dog there was
>>6.. and the rest were entered in *VETERANS* 8 and older or up.... How is
>>*that* not living long? I really doubt that you actually bothered to see
>>the dogs.
>
>Which story is it Doug?
>
Your little twisted shot about the age that her dogs die. Having
memory problems? If you'd like, I can send you the post. If (which I
doubt) you are more than one person.. which you contradict with every
post.. you really need to keep your stories straight. It makes you
look even stupider than you are.
>>Another apologist for Dan, too. Do you believe his story that this was
>>all concocted by jealous collie breeders? I'm sure you do. Suuure
>
>Actually I am a firm believer that Dan was guilty as hell and should have
>received a prison sentence. What goes around, comes around and he will
>get his someday, somewhere, but it won't be because of you people who
>continue to rant and rave like lunatics, claiming all the credit for
>exposing him. WRONG again Doug!!!!!!.
>
I've never seen Leslie claim the credit for exposing him. I've never
claimed the credit for exposing him. Speaking of raving like a
lunatic, what do you think you're doing?
>>Leslie scared off a DA. Yeah, right. Any other fantasies you'd like to
>>regale us with? Keep posting, TROLL. Let the world see what sort of
>>people supported Dan.
>
>
>>Yes.. I have pretty good idea, TROLL. I haven't seen your web site yet,
>>either. I doubt I will. There's nothing like the light to kill a troll.
>>
>>Doug Jones
>
>Bye Doug--have a nice day and continue groping in the dark! I will let
>you know when the web site is done!
>
>
Please do. I can't wait to see it.
You *still* haven't answered any serious question in this thread.
You have been ducking and weaving a lot.. getting real defensive
yourself.
Now, let's get *back* to the thread... Do you really think Mary Ann
Keefer *didn't* know about what Dan was doing? Do you approve of her
being re-instated to membership? What is *your* opinion of the lack
of response to Dan's case by the CCA? It was a no-lose proposition
for them... They could've stood on a stump, screaming their heads off
about how horrible it was... and they really didn't have to do
anything else, because he wasn't a member. No suspension procedures
necessary (not that they can get those right)! But, instead....
silence.
So, are you going to continue to throw smoke to cover the CCA?
Doug Jones
IamPitbull
--Leslie, see what I have been referring to?? You have created a
backlash. All your great work and efforts have been undermined by
yourself and your cronies (see Doug "garbagemouth's" reoccurring post on
what else--surprise, Dan Pierce!). You have made people so tired of the
entire Pierce thing, that they couldn't care less. Was this your intent?
If so, what a pity! Defeated by your own cause. It's time for you and
Dogman to retire. Time to move on Leslie--get another life. Go pick on
another breed, but please, not Pitbulls! How about guppies? They eat
their young! That could give you plenty of material for years to come!
lb3...@navix.net
In article <19970805201...@ladder01.news.aol.com>,
iampi...@aol.com (IamPitbull) wrote:
>
> What an appropriate heading.
Running out of gas, CCAPita??? Need to change the heading and go to
another alias to try and throw the TROLL KILLERS off the scent???? You'd
have to soak in vinegar and baking soda for a week to accomplish the
removal of your stench.
Not only does Leslie Mamer betray justice,
> but she betrays the club she is a member of, the Collie Club of America
> and the breed. She gives the Collie breed a bad name.
So far TROLL, you haven't demonstrated ANYTHING (except your stupidity)
to PROVE your baseless rantings. See, if you're going to say somebody did
something BAAADDD, you have to say HOW they did it.
She needs to get a
> productive life. Go out and buy one, do whatever you have to do. It is
> obvious you don't work because you wouldn't have so much free time on your
> hands to be bashing everyone over the head. If you aren't going on and on
> regarding Dan Pierce (a dead issue with most people) then you are
> attacking everyone who doesn't agree with you.
THIS is a hoot!! Now the TROLL thinks it's "Dear Abbey". Your definition
of "productive" seems to be churning out mounds of mindless babble on
subjects which you know nothing about. We call that TROLL TURDS here.
You, as well as others on
> this list, must have nothing better to do than to live, eat and breathe
> these newsgroups. You and Dogman sound like one and the same person. You
> both want dissension and disruption in your lives. You must crave it.
> Grow up and get a life! Time to move on to other things.
This isn't a "list", moron! It's a "newsgroup". It's not as easy to
control and blither to as moderated e-mail lists are. Here the "real"
people come to share ideas, help others and express opinions WITHOUT your
need for censorship and control of free speech. I didn't think you'd last
too long in the real world of the internet. Time to consider yourself
roadkill on the information super highway, insect. Pissing Dogman off was
a BIG mistake. I'm sure the bully-breeders aren't amused either. And the
only day that the Dan Pierce incident will be a "dead issue" is when he
himself is dead!! We'll make room in the torture chamber for you though,
so don't worry CCAPita/IamPi...@aol.com.
You may be excused now, to go sulk and pout in the sewers with
the other Dan-Fans.
lb3...@navix.net
In article <19970805154...@ladder01.news.aol.com>,
itrai...@aol.com (ITrainDogs) wrote:
>
> >Subject: Re: COLLIE CLUB OF AMERICA BETRAYS BREED!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
> >From: lb3...@navix.net (Leslie Mamer)
> >Date: Tue, 05 Aug 1997 07:25:23 GMT
> >Message-ID: <33e6c076...@news.navix.net>
>
> >BTW, if Dogman says it's Jeanne Welch then I'm apt to believe him. He's
> got
> >a pretty good record when it comes to tracking and killing TROLLS.
> >Interesting that Welch, who has lurked around the Usegroups, hasn't made
> >her own reply, but thinks herself pretty handy with a knife via e-mail!
> She
> >can take care of herself.
> >
> >
> >Leslie Mamer
>
> I've spoken to Jeanne Welsh. She was ready to retrieve her bitch when all
> hell broke loose! You and your cronies calling the prosecutor and making a
> carnival out of the criminal justice system, just to satisfy your own
> agenda.
Yeah?? Want a copy of the e-mail she sent me AFTER Dan was convicted,
asking if I knew ANYTHING about the well-being (dead or alive) of her
blue bitch, Feather??? "Set to retrieve"...?? I DON'T THINK SO!!! Pierce
was arrested in June 1996 and convicted and sentenced in January 1997!
Everyone who had dogs they WANTED to "retrieve" from him had done so in
that time. And WELCH asks me in February if *I* know anything!!! You
wasted a long distance phone call, Babs.
>
> Me thinks you are lonely and have nothing else better to do with your
> life. Quit thriving on the negative and enjoy the positive side of your
> life. If there is one.
Yeppers. I'm POSITIVELY delighted that Welch didn't get away with trying
to bury her connection to Pierce and stop my signature line. And I'm
POSITIVELY thrilled with publicly disclosing the reinstatement of Mary
Ann Keefer to the Collie Club of America membership. That, and their
thundering silence on the Pierce incident, illustrates the complete
disregard the CCA has for it's own breed. And I'm POSITIVELY ROTFLMAO at
the way you've been suckered in to the "head in the sand" position they
all assume at the Club's highest levels. Know why??? Because now I know
that YOU would be a hazard for even a rescue foster home. It takes people
with GUTS to do that job.
You didn't seem to get it the first time, so I'll post it again now:
ADDRESS FOR DAN PIERCE
25391 PENROSE RD.
QUAKER CITY, OH. 43773
ADDRESS FOR MARY ANN KEEFER (BEFORE APRIL 1997)
25301 PENROSE RD.
QUAKER CITY, OH. 43773
Are we paying attention yet??? Can you say "NEIGHBOR"???????? Oh, and try
to remember that she STILL works with him in Wheeling, W.VA.....
>
> If you believe everything Dogman says I've got some cheap beach front
> property for sale in Arizona.
>
> -Barbara Greenall
You mean the "cheap beachfront property" in Arizona that YOU bought??
Sorry Babs. But not too surprising you'd fall for it, considering that
you seem to have all the intellectual capacity of a small soap dish. Ah
well...there's a sucker born every minute........
ITrainDogs
>Subject: Re: COLLIE CLUB OF AMERICA BETRAYS BREED!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
>Date: 6 Aug 1997 13:08:19 -0700
>Message-ID: <5saljj$t...@drn.zippo.com>
>No, the only ones that I see complaining are those who *seem* to have
>something
>to hide. Leslie has done a wonderful job of educating this group on
'dirty
>politics' as well as letting us exactly WHY we should be looking out for
>people
>like Dan Pierce (scum of the earth).
>
>And no, I do not think that the horrible atrocities committed by Dan
should
>be
>swept away and forgotten, I think they should be held up for EVERYONE to
see,
>so
>that responsible, ethical breeders and owners know what kind of people to
>watch
>out for and avoid. Dan should have gotten jail time - and a lot of it.
By
>holding him up as an example, perhaps the next POS to come along won't be
as
>lucky.
>
>The reason that you have perhaps not gotten as much response on this
thread
>is
>that Leslie and Dogman have been doing a wonderful job so far in
defending
>their
>position. Just remember that they speak for *many* of us on the group,
and if
>you'd like to call for a "vote" here, I'll bet dollars to donuts that
your
>views
>are gonna lose--hands down.
>Cat in Alaska
Oh, pleeeze girl, chill out. Every community has a "Dan Pierce" to deal
with. Why should everyone on the Net worry about this guy? Quit beating a
dead horse.
-Barbara Greenall
CCAPita
Doug Jones writes:
>Gee, and it only took me 7 years of writing for the Review to kill >it!
Gosh, I must have been doing something wrong. I did send >your little
"blame Doug" over to Leslie Rugg.. it gave her a good >laugh. >
Yeah you both would think that's real funny. That's the kind of mentality
you both have. It only took her one year, with you at the helm, to undo
what the previous owner had worked a lifetime for! That's real
hysterical. I bet she laughed all the way to the bank. She really
thought a magazine could be carried by someone like you--the laughing
stock of Collies. Doug, you are losing it!
>I'm glad you have more to lose.. it'll be that much more fun when >I *do*
pull you out into the light! BTW, *don't* think that an AOL
>account is going to make you safe. ;-) There's been a history of
>identifying TROLLS on this newsgroup.
Who cares Doug, that your life's work has become hunting down and exposing
AOL trolls. Do you really think this has some kind of relevance to people
in dogs? This is what the Great Review writer is reduced to? You make me
so nervous, I don't know if I can finish this message. Doug, honestly,
you are worse off than I ever thought!
>>>Really? I see. So, you admit that I *WOULD* have personal >knowledge
of
I will reiterate, READ MY LIPS---one thing I never accused you of is
having any kind of knowledge whatsoever. I don't care what you saw or did
at that National. Obviously you don't see very well, or you were so busy
chasing around after Leslie, you're vision was blurred. That'll do it
everytime. Speaking of Mamer, where is she? Did she get cold feet and
send you to fight her battles? Not up to the task anymore? That's a
bad sign. Next, you'll send along Del. NEXT------
>Although you do, typical of trolls, have to cloak it with a lot of
innuendo. You know, I sort of like the KKK motif.. it reminds me of you..
hooded and cowardly.
There's that Klan stuff again. It's really weird how none of you can make
a response without some mention of it. And you want to be taken
seriously? (that's a morbid thought, in itself!))
> you really need to keep your stories straight. It makes you
>look even stupider than you are.
Is this your best shot--this is the best you can do? You need to give
this a rest, as you are losing it man--if you ever had it!
>you'd like to regale us with? Keep posting, TROLL. Let the >world see
what sort of people supported Dan.
Move on Doug. The Dan Pierce issue is dead--gone---buried. It's time for
you to start thinking about something else in life, like maybe breeding
some quality dogs, making a contribution other than making a nuisance of
yourself.
>There's nothing like the light to kill a troll.
You and your trolls-- who cares?
> You *still* haven't answered any serious question in this thread.
>You have been ducking and weaving a lot.. getting real defensive
yourself.
If I really thought you were interested in hearing my answers to the
questions below, I would be more than happy to communicate with you. But
you are almost like an unintelligible life form. You would be impossible
to communicate with on any rational level. You would listen to nothing I
had to say. If by some chance you did listen, you would contradict
everything without the facts to back it up. One thing has become very
obvious, you are jealous as hell that Mary Ann was let back in the club,
while you were denied membership. Why don't you start your own club---It
could be called The Collie Club of Discontent.
>Now, let's get *back* to the thread... Do you really think Mary Ann
>Keefer *didn't* know about what Dan was doing? Do you approve of her
>being re-instated to membership? What is *your* opinion of the lack
>of response to Dan's case by the CCA? It was a no-lose proposition
>for them... They could've stood on a stump, screaming their heads off
>about how horrible it was... and they really didn't have to do
>anything else, because he wasn't a member. No suspension procedures
>necessary (not that they can get those right)! But, instead....
>silence.
>
>So, are you going to continue to throw smoke to cover the CCA?
Bye Doug--bring on the next discontent--I have grown tired of you. You're
about as much fun as Leslie!
Cat in Alaska
In article <19970806225...@ladder02.news.aol.com>, itrai...@aol.com
says...
>Yea, guess we will see. Every community in this world has experienced a
>tragedy like this one.
Yes, and as long as people turn a blind eye to it as you have these things will
continue to happen.
> There are sick people everywhere. And fools like
>you, who have never been exposed to the real world (beyond a keyboard) get
>all excited and make people like Pierce famous.
BWAAHAAHAAHAA
What do you know of the "real world". From your postings, it seems more like you
are doing everything you can *not* to face the real world.
Naw, Pierce isn't going to get "famous" over this, just infamous, as Ted Bundy
or Manson.
What do you consider the "real world", Barbara. I've lived in big cities, small
rural areas and have done a very wide variety of jobs in my life; started
working a 'full time' job at age 12, and worked my way through college without
ANY financial assistance from anyone. The area I live in is certainly
considered a part of the "real world" and the living here is probably much
harsher than anything you've ever acclimated to in your life.
>
>BTW, how did you get along with your father?
>
>-Barbara Greenall
Probably much better than you got along with yours. We are still on speaking
terms and I am accepted on equal terms in my family... how about you?
<snort>
And have you always had this problem with facing reality. Those who face reality
and don't like what they see DO something about it, they just don't hide behind
the scenes "hoping it'll all just go away".
Cat in Alaska
ITrainDogs
>Subject: Re: COLLIE CLUB OF AMERICA BETRAYS BREED!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
>Date: Wed, 06 Aug 1997 09:29:45 -0800
>Message-ID: <33E8B4...@zzyx.ucsc.edu>
>
>I'll probably get the quote wrong but
>"Those who forget history are doomed to repeat it."
>Wendy
>Kyzyl Kum Salukis - Smooth & Feathered
>kyzy...@cruzio.com
Hi Wendy!
We wouldn't want to forget about the Collies, but must we be reminded of
them everytime we turn on our computers? Most of the members I've spoken
to, wish to forget about them and move ahead to more positive issues.
-Barbara Greenall
Susan Lennard
In article <3409f83d...@news1.i1.net>, qbt...@v1.arg (Dogman) wrote:
In article <3409f83d...@news1.i1.net>, qbt...@v1.arg (Dogman) wrote:
and you see the
> people involved in the first episode slowly getting all their
> privileges back, and more dogs, would you really want everyone to
> FORGET about this so soon??????
And this is the point, isn't it? I have reviewed the website and the
photos are horrific; a thing not exclusive to the collie breed and a
situation that rarely results in the proper punishment of the abusers. Two
years ago, we experienced a similar tragedy with nine Saints rescued and
three found dead and partially decomposed on the ground. The abuser was
sentenced to a fine and barred from breeding for one year; hardly worth
the lives of three Saint Bernards. Guess what he's doing now?
For me, it is not a matter of rehashing the past that becomes of utmost
importance but rather, reacting to subsequent events that are sure to
allow the same atrocities to occur. How does one react to recent events
without reminding others of the original offense? How does one accept
repeated insults by the original offenders when the likely outcome will
be, no doubt, the discovery of dead and mutilated dogs? It would be
another matter altogether if the offenders were no longer involved in
dogs. But, they're here...they're motivated...and they are bound to repeat
their behavior.
While I haven't followed all of the posts on this subject, it seems only
natural and responsible for those who are proactive in this matter, to
react to recent signals by the original offenders, treating them as a
precursor to a similar tragedy. Frankly, I would rather be accused of
annoying a few posters than remain silent and, perhaps, bear partial
responsibility for more dead dogs.
Susan
--
The "Complete Saint Bernard Dog" web page at:
http://nbb.emory.edu/saint/
ENJOY!
Cat in Alaska
In article <19970806224...@ladder01.news.aol.com>, itrai...@aol.com
says...
>
>>Subject: Re: COLLIE CLUB OF AMERICA BETRAYS BREED!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
You bet Barbara...
every community has it's animal abusers, child abusers, rapists, murderers, etc.
to deal with. One of the damn reasons that every community has these problems is
EXACTLY the people like you who bury their heads in the sand. You don't wish to
see the nastiness of this world, so you close your eyes and ignore it, hoping
that it will go away. And until all the different communities *realize* that
they don't have to put up with the garbage from the punks, gangs, or people like
Dan Pierce, it is going to continue to worsen. It's called the devaluation of
life, Barbara. Life, whether human or animal has little meaning to some people
anymore and MANY people have gotten to the point where violence and abuse is
part of everyday life that they *accept*. Sorry, I choose not to accept it,
and I deal with violence and abuse every single day at work. There is little
difference between someone like Dan Pierce, who let those poor dogs suffer, and
the parent who leaves an infant in a dumpster to starve or die of exposure, or
the man that beats his wife (in front of their children) so severely that she
has to be put in intensive care. Willfull and intentional cruelty and abuse are
wrong, and people need to be informed about these things to CORRECT them.
Yeah, I've met people like Dan Pierce before. Took a horsewhip away from one
once and sent him to the hospital after he struck me with it in the process.
Would do it again in a heartbeat to prevent the abuse he was showering on a
horse that refused a jump that was too high for it; or for any other unwarrented
abuse on an animal. I've taken in animals for rehab that had been treated so
cruely that they didn't even look like their species. I've gone with other
Humane Society workers and carefully cut a too-tight collar off of a full grown
Dobie that was starved down to 27 lbs and half dead from thirst because the
owner didn't think it was mean enough and "wanted to punish it for awhile"
(several weeks of practically no food and water... neighbors basically ignored
the situation because they were afreaid of the guy). That guy got jail time...
even though the dog lived.
It is VERY obvious that you have never done rehab/rescue work. If you had, you
would be as outraged as the rest of us. It is also very obvious that you don't
give a sh*t about any animal's welfare except perhaps how it can benefit YOU.
Sorry, I'm not like that... I happen to have a heart, and a conscience. I
wouldn't be able to sleep at all at night if something like what Dan did was
going on in my neighborhood and I knew about it but did nothing.
You are discrediting people who are trying to correct a problem. What have you
got to hide that you do not wish them to make an attempt to stop the abuse? You
are one strange troll, Barbara and an original... I don't believe there are any
other trolls on this group that recommend turning a *blind* eye to abuse.
"Chill out"???
Nah, I've barely started, thank you very much!
Cat in Alaska
Leslie Mamer
In article <19970804023...@ladder02.news.aol.com>,
cca...@aol.com (CCAPita) wrote:
>
> Mamer writes---->THIS TROLL who has been following me around for several
>
> Nice try Leslie, but no cigar. Number 1, I was never on the Collie e-mail
> list. Following you around??? In your dreams Leslie! I wrote you
> previously regarding some garbage you were ranting and raving about on the
> Collie List (the Gazette column, remember?).
Oh, THIS is good, TROLL! Which story is it? You were on the List (yes,
you were; want me to post the notes you sent when you subscribed as
CCAPita); or now, in some delusional episode, you were NEVER there!!
HAHAHAHA!!!!! Wearing a cape and changing in phone boothes too,
mini-PITA??
A kind individual sent me
> copies of your posts.
Yeah, yourself, Asshole! It's a subscriber-only, moderated e-mail list.
Your posts were DIRECT, not forwarded by some mindless "individual".
You didn't unsubscribe from the list---you were
> kicked off---suspended. "Discreetly" you say? That's a funny one!!!!
> Somehow that is not a description I would ever think of in reference to
> you. Must be another famous Mamer joke!
Get your facts straight for just once, TROLL. I had already unsubscribed
because you were clearly TROLLING for me and disrupted the e-mail list. I
found out from the moderator that I had been suspended with one of your
close and crazy AOL buddies ONLY TO MAKE IT LOOK GOOD TO YOU KIDDIES!!!
The moderator knew you'd go whining about how "unfair" it was that just
YOU people were in trouble; so I went along with the charade. JOKE'S ON
YOU, ASSHOLE!!!
For your information, the now
> famous CCAPITA, troll or whatever you choose to call me, is one person
> and always has been. No one takes turns, although I have to admit, there
> are several hundred people who would love to give it a try! Not one
> person knows the true identity of CCAPITA. "Afraid of being traced?" I
> mean really Leslie-- Shame on you! Who is going to trace me?? The
> Internet cops??
No, I was thinking of the hackers who cracked the DES encryption code.
Getting your IP address can be done by them in a coffee-break!!!
BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!
"Screeching"?? I don't think so, but that does sound a
> bit like you. "Evidence, transcripts, depositions...blah, blah, blah".
> Garbage in--Garbage out!
Well, you certainly would know a lot about garbage, TROLL! How's the
smell down there, in the AOL TROLL domain of the sewer running beneath
the rest of us on the information superhighway?? Yum Yum!!!
Everyone knows your involvement in the Pierce
> affair was for your own glorification and nothing more. It gave you lots
> of practice at grandstanding and posturing. You prevented Dan from
> getting the kind of sentence he deserved and you further undermined the
> entire case by flying off the handle with wild accusations, levelled at
> everyone he knew or had close dealings with. BORING!
What a load of TROLL shit!! I'm NOT the one who broke the story; all I
did BEFORE he was convicted was pass on update and resource information
to the Collie list. You, on the other hand, were busy making sure that
your protege had the bucks for HIS private attorney, since you couldn't
find more idiots like yourself to support him morally. How exactly could
I have prevented a prosecutor in another state (or the Judge for that
matter) from giving Pierce jail time, huh?? The congratulations for
getting him off go right to YOU and the other Dan-Fans: Mary Ann Keefer,
Mary Shingle, Melody Nolan,...and the list goes on. YOU take the bows for
the mess you made of things, TROLL!!!
Quite frankly, I am
> not interested in a pissing contest with you--I am just interested in
> telling it like it is! And at the same time, informing others about what
> a phony you are--full of garbage and hot air.
I didn't think you'd last very long TROLL! Running out of urine??
"Telling it like it is". Wipe that sewage out of your eyes, first! Why
don't I tell it like it is. Your a stooge for the power-mad dictators
running the Collie Club of America!! Tell the people here how you and
yours crashed and trashed a DM prjoect making headway in genetic
markers!! Tell them how you and yours pltted and schemed to suspend the
President of the CCA and then got disciplined yourselves by the AKC for
doing it!!! Tell them all how you tried to stop club members, peons to
you, from meeting at the National in '96!!! Tell them how we, the peons,
were told by you, the "gods", that we had no RIGHT to meet!!! But we that
we had to pay for some "Top Twenty" competition that charged it's own
entry fees and kept all the profit while using the site and the set-ups
that WE members had paid for!!! Oh, and don't forget to tell everyone
about how you make the membership PAY for the CCA Secretary's AOL account
(and the shitty web page with NO information or intrinsic value)!!! Yeah,
you arrogant assholes could do all this but you wouldn't DARE to make a
no-lose statement about a guy who murdered puppies at will - and who YOU
gave the Club's highest show award to!! I think I just heard all the hot
air escape from YOUR balloon, TROLL.
BTW, you and I both know
> everything I wrote about you and your dogs at the National, was true. Ask
> the breeders involved. Why was the one TOP breeder screaming and swearing
> at you?? Huh??? I won't mention names out of respect for their privacy,
> but you know who they are and lots of other people heard the entire sordid
> affair.
What we DO know is that you are nothing more than a lying sack of shit,
TROLL!! You've already gotten posts from people who were actually at the
Nationals, actually saw my dogs, actually handled my dogs, and who have
contradicted EVERYTHING you've said. It's not MY word against a TROLL's
now. And, if just one single iota of this particular lie were true, what
the hell stop YOU and your hordes of followers from calling a Bench Show
Committee at the single LARGEST Collie Club of America National Specialty
show in years?!?! Geeze!! You already had your version of the Gestapo
following me around there, in the name of "wethics"!! I guess since
nothing happened in reality, it has been pretty hard for you to swallow,
until you thought you had an audience who would believe this
ahllucination of yours! People on the newsgroups aren't as stupid as the
crowd you hang with.
Hehehehe...here's another one for you, shit-for-brains: THE undisputed
TOP breeder in the country STILL co-owns one of the Veterans (now 10 and
doing well) with me. He not only stated he saw no problem, but I notice
that he has been removed from the list of people you have been cc'ing
your garbage to. Get a phone call, did we????
One nice thing about being a troll and being anonymous---you
> can't reduce the argument to racial, sexual or personal attacks because
> you know nothing about me. That must kill you! The great Leslie Mamer's
> hands tied--- can't come up with hits below the belt. Too bad, huh?
> Keep up the good work Leslie--your excellent work continues to make you
> look stupid and foolish, not to mention sick, petty, and very very
> tiring. BORING!!
So, now you ADMIT you're a troll, TROLL!! Why would I reduce an argument
I'm winning to any racial or sexual slurs?? You're doing that very nicely
yourself, FOOL! You are wrong about a couple of things though. I DO know
that you are a coward. I DO know that you are particularly AFRAID of me.
And I DO know that your obsessive stalking behavior and lunatic ravings
are a form of expressing your ADMIRATION for me. You stole my signature
line (CCAPita). Everyone knows that imitation is the sincerest form of
flattery. Pathetic TROLL. All those mixed emotions must be wreaking havoc
with your antipsychotic medications. If you let me know who and where you
are, I'll have you committed on an Emergency Protective Custody order
until you're all better. You've just demonstrated what a danger you are
to yourself, and I still have my license to practice. We'll give you a
lovely padded room where you can ping off the walls all day long without
hurting anyone.
BTW, speaking of hurting?? Go after my dogs again and their breeders or
co-owners and, once you're found mentally competent, you'll find that you
won't be able to PRINT enough money to save your sorry, chickenshit ass
from what we'll have done to you!!! This is your ONLY warning, until the
HAHA Hotel lets you out.
Get Well Soon, TROLL!!
Leslie Mamer
Heirlair Collies
#1 PITA to CCA/CCAF
*******
Remember the Pierce Collies!
http://ic.net/~dwayne/pierce
"Scenes From A Death Camp"
Leslie Mamer
On 6 Aug 97 09:48:21 CDT, els...@kuhub.cc.ukans.edu (Elizabeth B. Naime)
wrote:
>In article <5s62gh$3...@drn.zippo.com>, scr...@scritto.com writes:
>
>> COLLIE CLUB OF AMERICA BETRAYS BREED can be considered libel. I think asking
>> questions is the only way to get to the truth, so: what is so objectionable
>> and/or reprehensible about Leslie Mamer's website? - Michelle
Well, as there is no libel in newsgroups, since it is a form of free
expression, which is closely protected by the US Constitution and recently
upheld in the Supreme Court (both the CDA and Falwell v Flint), AND all
libel must be a written and provable LIE, that particular issue is rendered
moot.
>I think answering a question with a question is often a good tactic,
>so: who exactly has been saying that Leslie Mamer's website is
>reprehensible or even objectionable?
Actually, if you look in the comments section of the web site, and I have
reviewed them all, there are NO references to objectionable or
reprehensible contents EXCEPT those comments speaking directly to what the
commenter feels about Pierce and his crimes.
>I know there are some people who would like to see the subject itself
>dropped, who feel -- incorrectly IMHO but it's their honest opinion
>too and in no way indicates collaboration or approval -- that the
>"never forget!" attitude only keeps an old wound from healing. But
>I've missed the ones who say the site itself is objectionable -- they
>have objected, generally quite mildly, to its constantly being brought
>up. And from this mild objection to "reprehensible" is a leap I have
>not yet seen made.
Yup. Me neither.
>I'll grant that my newsreader is sometimes late with posts, so perhaps
>I have missed something. BUT it is quite possible to object
>(strenuously) to some of Ms. Mamer's posts, and even to find certain
>aspects of them reprehensible, without applying either of those
>adjectives to the web site. It is also possible to wish the whole
>subject would go away without either being a "Dan Fan" or objecting to
>the site itself.
Yes, and if someone wants the entire subject to "all go away" then they can
put it out of their own minds. It is not for anyone to impose their
personal wishes on an entire group. This has been the effort brought
forward on the Collie e-mail list.
I guess I'd like to know why MANY breed clubs have linked their web sites
to ours but the Collie Club of America, the "guardian" of the Collie breed,
HAS NOT!! Instead, I am threatened with membership loss, maligned within
the Executive Committee and then insulted by my club by the
welcoming back with open arms a lapsed member (Mary Ann Keefer) who refused
to cooperate with authorities AND had the best information as to Pierce's
history of torturing these puppies.
Sorry, but in MY opinion, negligence perpetuates negligence. It won't be
stopped unless someone does something. And a member of a breed club
shouldn't be damned for showing that they care enough to DO SOMETHING!!!
>-----------------------------------------------------------------------
>Elizabeth B. Naime * Email may be forwarded and/or posted
Doug Jones
cca...@aol.com (CCAPita) wrote:
>Doug Jones writes:
>>Gee, and it only took me 7 years of writing for the Review to kill >it!
>Gosh, I must have been doing something wrong. I did send >your little
>"blame Doug" over to Leslie Rugg.. it gave her a good >laugh. >
>Yeah you both would think that's real funny. That's the kind of mentality
>you both have. It only took her one year, with you at the helm, to undo
>what the previous owner had worked a lifetime for! That's real
>hysterical. I bet she laughed all the way to the bank. She really
>thought a magazine could be carried by someone like you--the laughing
>stock of Collies. Doug, you are losing it!
Well, you need to check your facts. Which are, as usual, shakey. Try
2 and a half years. Oh, BTW, don't forget that the founder's wife ran
it for a while, too. Laughed all the way to the bank? You really
need a reality check there! I wasn't at the "helm", nor was I
"carrying" the magazine.
You also show that you *didn't* know the founder of the magazine very
well.
[.....]
>Who cares Doug, that your life's work has become hunting down and exposing
>AOL trolls. Do you really think this has some kind of relevance to people
>in dogs? This is what the Great Review writer is reduced to? You make me
>so nervous, I don't know if I can finish this message. Doug, honestly,
>you are worse off than I ever thought!
No, now this may be *real* hard for you to understand, but hunting
AOL trolls is a hobby. Light entertainment. It is by no means my
"life's work". My real life's work is much more important than that.
It involves finding treatments and cures for a very nasty disease.
But, I guess you don't understand things like that.
>>>>Really? I see. So, you admit that I *WOULD* have personal >knowledge
>of
>I will reiterate, READ MY LIPS---one thing I never accused you of is
>having any kind of knowledge whatsoever. I don't care what you saw or did
>at that National. Obviously you don't see very well, or you were so busy
>chasing around after Leslie, you're vision was blurred. That'll do it
>everytime. Speaking of Mamer, where is she? Did she get cold feet and
>send you to fight her battles? Not up to the task anymore? That's a
>bad sign. Next, you'll send along Del. NEXT------
I see just fine, thank you. I even have a sense of touch.. which is
why I know damn well (from having lifted those dogs onto a grooming
table) exactly what condition they *were* in. I think if you look
around, you'll see that Leslie has anything but cold feet in fighting
her battles.
>>Although you do, typical of trolls, have to cloak it with a lot of
>innuendo. You know, I sort of like the KKK motif.. it reminds me of you..
>hooded and cowardly.
>There's that Klan stuff again. It's really weird how none of you can make
>a response without some mention of it. And you want to be taken
>seriously? (that's a morbid thought, in itself!))
Well, I didn't start it. Would you like to know who did? As I
recall, it was one of the District Directors, who, attempting to
justify the voting down of the previous former member, favorably
compared the membership policies of the CCA to the KKK. Somehow,
something like that sticks in your mind. Of course, the Nazi
metaphor might also be apropos...
>> you really need to keep your stories straight. It makes you
>>look even stupider than you are.
>Is this your best shot--this is the best you can do? You need to give
>this a rest, as you are losing it man--if you ever had it!
Well, considering that you have come up with several different
stories, and have yet to get your facts in order, I have to assume
that you must be the one losing it
>Move on Doug. The Dan Pierce issue is dead--gone---buried. It's time for
>you to start thinking about something else in life, like maybe breeding
>some quality dogs, making a contribution other than making a nuisance of
>yourself.
I see. So, in a few years, when it turns out that there's another
dead litter in Ohio, you will go "thank god, at *least* Doug Jones
stopped making a nuisance of himself!" Because of people like you..
it will happen again.
As to the quality of my dogs.. hmm, that one I just sold to a kennel
that wanted to "clean up the mess left by (deleted) Kennel", the one
that someone else is breeding to because they want something good - as
opposed to what they've been getting going to the "well-known"
kennels, and of course, the litters I have in the works.. well, see
you next year in the ring. BTW, just out of curiosity - how many
Westminster winners do *you* have in your kennel?
>>There's nothing like the light to kill a troll.
>You and your trolls-- who cares?
Wrong place to ask that question.. :-D
>If I really thought you were interested in hearing my answers to the
>questions below, I would be more than happy to communicate with you. But
>you are almost like an unintelligible life form. You would be impossible
>to communicate with on any rational level. You would listen to nothing I
>had to say. If by some chance you did listen, you would contradict
>everything without the facts to back it up. One thing has become very
>obvious, you are jealous as hell that Mary Ann was let back in the club,
>while you were denied membership. Why don't you start your own club---It
>could be called The Collie Club of Discontent.
I'm "Jealous"? Oh, please. Saddened is more like it. Let's see.. a
National club re-instates (conveniently forgetting a standing rule
along the way) a former member, who, is very closely involved with one
of the nastiest abuse cases seen. Lived nearby, co-owned dogs, was a
regular visitor, refused to testify in the case.. oh yes, did I forget
that she had the same lawyer as Dan? That she was running back from
the DA to the lawyer? I guess everyone else did, too. But, what the
heck, welcome her back into the club with open arms, because she
wasn't arrested or convicted of animal cruelty. All is forgiven and
forgotten! Come to think of it, neither was Joe Latz arrested or
convicted. I'm sure I'll see *his* name in the Yearbook soon.
Speaking of the "Collie Club of Discontent".. hmm, have you looked at
the membership figures lately? You should.
>>
>>So, are you going to continue to throw smoke to cover the CCA?
>Bye Doug--bring on the next discontent--I have grown tired of you. You're
>about as much fun as Leslie!
Yes, you're going to throw smoke. I figured you would. <sigh> I
should have taken bets.
Doug Jones
Mary Kennedy
>
> I see the same 'ol people responding to these replies....Terri, Leslie,
> Dogman, Cat and nobody else.
>
Since you want someone else, here goes. I think you're an idiot for
ever suggesting that anyone even forget about the atrocities commited
by Dan Pierce. I also thin you, girl, have a hidden agenda.
Mary
rice...@worldnetla.net
> Oh, pleeeze girl, chill out. Every community has a "Dan Pierce" to
deal
> with. Why should everyone on the Net worry about this guy? Quit
beating a
> dead horse.
>
> -Barbara Greenall
Pardon me, but maybe in your community, but certainly not in mine.
Here they hang sons of bitches like that from the closest tree, then
dump the body in the woods.
I think they refer to ot as Southern Justice.
dogsnus
ITrainDogs wrote:
>
> >Subject: Re: COLLIE CLUB OF AMERICA BETRAYS BREED!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
> >From: dogsnus <"Terri"@cyberhighway .net>
> >Date: Wed, 06 Aug 1997 09:35:29 -0700
> >Message-ID: <5sa5du$b...@news2.zippo.com>
> >
> >ITrainDogs wrote:
>
> >> If you cared about dogs at all you would being doing something to help
> >> prevent the millions of dogs in death camps, from being put down, at
> the
> >> humane societies all over this country.
was supposed to be a *respected* collie breeder. And YOU condone
forgetfullness of this man and the dog's he abused and destroyed??
Go figure some *folks.....*
snip
> >> Let's all try and forget the Pierce Collies and move on. This is
> turning
> >> into a slaughter house and I'm personally tired of reading about it.
Then dont read it. Simple enough, even for a nimrod like yourself.
>
> >You WANT the world to forget about the Pierce Collies??? WHY????
> >You want the same thing to happen AGAIN??????
> >Have you actually VIEWED those photos??? Do you also want the world
> >to forget about concentration camps of WWII????
> >You WANT to see this stuff happen again, and again???
> >My GOD you're an ass!
>
> Terri I'm more concerned as to why you are reacting to this topic with
> such malice and disapproval. I've been training dogs since 1980 and always
> use positive reinforcement methods.
Now THATS a lesson in convoluted logic! Have you considered submitting
yourself into a local *denial* facility? They'd have a blast with you.
Do you feel Pierce used *postitive refinforment?* Hell,it's not
even negative, it's abuse, pure and simple.
Period. But when I see others, such as
> friends and associates, who continue to thrive on negative issues I can't
> help but wonder what has happened to them in their lives.
Well, most of us in this category love animals, and dont intend to let
another Pierce go unnoticed thouroughout life, nor his supporters.
No, we're not the mentally afflicted, YOU are.
So many times,
> recations like yours, could indicate being caught in a abusive
> relationship, or you could be suffering from an abusive childhood.
BAHWAHAHAHA!!!! Not even a close equal to a really good troll!Yet
onether
self-immersed yokel, attempting poor attempts in armchair high school-
techno-mumbo-jumbo!
Thanks for the smile!
> >
> >> Move on!
On Babs, I will, never fear, I WILL! Thank you for gaining even
more attention to the questionable habits of your chapter of the
CCAA! Thank you for giving me a torch to carry! God I LOVE the
torch! Carried it through the tuna boycott and right through the
Sears puppy mill activities! These grass roots movements work well!
THANKS for calling attention to the fact that the CCAA wants to
sweep this under the rug!( You ARE speaking for them, eh?)
Up til now, the dog day's of August had
little meaning, now it means the *real *heat can be turned up! You
think the reporters are going to be content with the comment from
the CCAA that it should be forgotten? I dont think so. They're going
to smell something fishy and I DONT mean tuna!
Babsy, poopsums,
YOU can explain the your local CCAA why the media and heat has
suddently risen, because of YOU! Up til now, the Pierce incident
has gone largely unrecognized outside the dog world and your local
media, NEVER FEAR.....Soon you can expect to see it on CNN and
every single local tabloid in the supermarket! Im looking at
bumper stickers, t-shirts, and my ever beloved color printer is
working overtime to print out copies for everyone who asks about it!
Including of course, your name and your flimsy reasons for covering
the whole mess up....AINT free speech GREAT?????
I , mean,I have access to 7 different cities every day in
my 2 hour commute! I have access to @ 8k people every day!
AND the web!!! God, life is good!!!!
> >
> >NEVER!! I will NEVER forget those photos as long as I live! NEVER!
> >This man should be keel hauled, and anyone who wants to *forget*
> >the Pierce Collies should be keel hauled too. You cannot EVER
> >call yourself a dog lover if you endorse the policy of "moving on"!
> >You JACKASS!!!!
>
> This is what I am referring to. You are afraid to let this issue go and
> release it from your memory. You really feel I should be "keel hauled"
> because I prefer to place myself around positive issues?
No, just because of your ostrich head in the sand attitude....Someone
has
to kick you ostiches in the patoot! Im happy to do so!
No fear here, poopys babs. Just a desire to tell the whole world what
you are trying to cover up! Gee, if we can get the Royal Family's
support,
there just might be more fines involved and a re-opening of the Pierce
case!
Happy days!
Your pattern of
> abuse is now showing, loud and clear. Let it go Terri, just release the
> hate and set yourself free, or your will never feel good about yourself,
> or your life.
Actually, Babsy, Im feeling even better about myself and my life right
now, thanks directly to YOU! I'll say a little prayer tonight before
I retire! YOU have given me a new torch to carry and nurture! I havent
felt
this ALIVE in months!
>
> >
> >Shove it Babs! I will never let this "man's " cruel acts to his dogs
> >fade away! NEVER!!!!
> >People, NEVER forget the name of Dan Pierce or what he did to his
> >Collies!
> >Terri
>
> Me thinks you need help, girl!
I got it, Babsy babe, yes, thanks DIRECTLY TO YOU!!! HAHAHAHAH!
YEOW, I feel good,,,,, *James Brown tune*......YEAH!!!!!
> -Barbara Greenall
Remember this name folks! Write your local papers, supply the
web site and names, contact your local pet stores, post flyers,
talk to the people you work with. Plaster this site and PICTURES
of the Pierce Collies everywhere you can, laundry mats, vets
offices, supermarkets... EVERYWHERE!!!!!
And dont forget to name Barbara Greenall to the list of people
OBJECTING to the site!!!!
We've done it before, we can do it again!!!! GO!!!
(Printer chugging away, hope it doesnt cause a brown out!)
I REFUSE to GIVE UP!
Terri
On a mission ........
Cat in Alaska
In article <19970807170...@ladder02.news.aol.com>, itrai...@aol.com
says...
>
>Girl, you can't be serious. Listen up. The Dan Pierce was dealt with by
>the courts. The justice system didn't work too well. No reason to loose
>sleep. It's over.
Not over when he is still attempting to breed dogs.
>
>I see the same 'ol people responding to these replies....Terri, Leslie,
>Dogman, Cat and nobody else.
>
>Does that tell you something? Let's move in girl, please.
>
>-Barbara Greenall
no, not the "same 'ol people". There has been replies on the subject from quite
a few on the group.
As I asked, why do you and *one* other poster want it buried? As long as there
is abuse, there will be those who will educate others as to its existance. If it
saves just ONE dog's life, then the effort is worth it. If it prevents just ONE
person from committing abuse (for fear he/she will go to jail) then it is worth
the effort.
You don't have to read the thread. Get a killfile if you don't wish to see it.
If you aren't doing something to correct the problem, then you end up part *of*
the problem.
Cat in Alaska
scr...@scritto.com
In article <19970808002...@ladder01.news.aol.com>, edgu...@aol.com
says...
>
>>Subject: Re: COLLIE CLUB OF AMERICA BETRAYS BREED!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
>>Date: 7 Aug 1997 11:22:54 -0700
>>Message-ID: <5sd3pu$k...@drn.zippo.com>
>
>>Sure - find whoever you like to be objectionable. But she has a right to
>post
>>and do whatever she wants to with her web site. In the case of the Pierce
>>Collies, it's fair warning to new dog owners to be careful who they buy
>their
>>puppies from and train their dogs with, even and especially people who
>claim
>>to
>>be "professionals" or "experts." I would never buy from a breeder no
>matter
>>how
>>legitimate - prefer to adopt from a shelter any time. Say again, who said
>you
>>had to read her posts? I don't! - Michelle
>>
>
>Connie and I viewed the Pierce Collies and it wasn't very pleasant. I can
>understand why some would want to forget about this, and why others would
>fight to prevent this from happening again. I wonder why this character
>didn't get any jailtime?
>
>ED & CONNIE GURSKIN
>
>http://www.expage.com/page/gurskins
Same question I asked on Mamer's website when I posted there. I also don't
understand how he's allowed to continue having dogs - Michelle
scr...@scritto.com
>Hi Scritto!
>
>The law works in mysterious ways. I recall that pitbull that was thrown
>from the car. How did things work out for ya?
>
>
>-Barbara Greenall
Waaahhhh!!! He got adopted today after spending three nights with us, and I MISS
HIM!!!!! I have the story in installments on *my* website ;-) at
http://scritto.com/mt_puppy.html and http://scritto.com/mt_puppy2.html, with
pcitures coming next week or so ... At least my beagle's eating now! He's been
so jealous he hasn't eaten for three days! (He can afford it, but he was
beginning to scare us!) - Michelle
Cat in Alaska
In article <5sdnt7$a...@news2.zippo.com>, dogsnus says...
<Enormus snip, lol>
>Remember this name folks! Write your local papers, supply the
>web site and names, contact your local pet stores, post flyers,
>talk to the people you work with. Plaster this site and PICTURES
>of the Pierce Collies everywhere you can, laundry mats, vets
>offices, supermarkets... EVERYWHERE!!!!!
>And dont forget to name Barbara Greenall to the list of people
>OBJECTING to the site!!!!
>We've done it before, we can do it again!!!! GO!!!
>(Printer chugging away, hope it doesnt cause a brown out!)
>I REFUSE to GIVE UP!
>Terri
>On a mission ........
Oh Terrrrrrriiiii,
I've lost that address for the CCA (darn thing jumped *right*out* of my
computer). I don't suppose you or Leslie have that address handdddyyyy?? (along
with the name of the person we should direct *inquiries* to) <BEG>
Also, does the CCA have an EMAIL ADDRESS???
Cat in Alaska
<chuckling>
ITrainDogs
>Subject: Re: COLLIE CLUB OF AMERICA BETRAYS BREED!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
>Message-ID: <5sbql3$a...@drn.zippo.com>
>>Oh, pleeeze girl, chill out. Every community has a "Dan Pierce" to deal
>>with. Why should everyone on the Net worry about this guy? Quit beating
a
>>dead horse.
>>
>>-Barbara Greenall
>You bet Barbara...
>every community has it's animal abusers, child abusers, rapists,
murderers,
>etc.
>to deal with. One of the damn reasons that every community has these
problems
>is
>EXACTLY the people like you who bury their heads in the sand. You don't
wish
>to
I've never buried my head in the sand. In our town we had a psyhco
poisoning dogs last year. I helped the police apprehend the maniac, whi is
still in jail.
Girl, you can't be serious. Listen up. The Dan Pierce was dealt with by
the courts. The justice system didn't work too well. No reason to loose
sleep. It's over.
I see the same 'ol people responding to these replies....Terri, Leslie,
scr...@scritto.com
In article <1997Aug...@kuhub.cc.ukans.edu>, els...@kuhub.cc.ukans.edu
says...
>
>In article <5s62gh$3...@drn.zippo.com>, scr...@scritto.com writes:
>
>> COLLIE CLUB OF AMERICA BETRAYS BREED can be considered libel. I think asking
>> questions is the only way to get to the truth, so: what is so objectionable
>> and/or reprehensible about Leslie Mamer's website? - Michelle
>
>so: who exactly has been saying that Leslie Mamer's website is
>reprehensible or even objectionable?
You're right about the tactic: have you done your research on the thread?
>I know there are some people who would like to see the subject itself
>dropped, who feel -- incorrectly IMHO but it's their honest opinion
>too and in no way indicates collaboration or approval -- that the
>"never forget!" attitude only keeps an old wound from healing. But
>I've missed the ones who say the site itself is objectionable -- they
>have objected, generally quite mildly, to its constantly being brought
>up. And from this mild objection to "reprehensible" is a leap I have
>not yet seen made.
Hence the "and/or" part of my original question. Besides, for newbies, it's only
fair they have an idea of what's been happening in the newsgroups several months
ago. I have no problem with discussing what you'd consider old news - it's new
news to many. Killfile the thread if you don't want to read it. Heck, everyone
knows I do!
>I'll grant that my newsreader is sometimes late with posts, so perhaps
>I have missed something. BUT it is quite possible to object
>(strenuously) to some of Ms. Mamer's posts, and even to find certain
>aspects of them reprehensible, without applying either of those
>adjectives to the web site. It is also possible to wish the whole
>subject would go away without either being a "Dan Fan" or objecting to
>the site itself.
>--
>-----------------------------------------------------------------------
>Elizabeth B. Naime * Email may be forwarded and/or posted
>els...@kuhub.cc.ukans.edu *
>CUR 70 / FUR 212 * * Standard Disclaimers Apply*
>------------------------------------------------------------------------
Sure - find whoever you like to be objectionable. But she has a right to post
and do whatever she wants to with her web site. In the case of the Pierce
Collies, it's fair warning to new dog owners to be careful who they buy their
puppies from and train their dogs with, even and especially people who claim to
be "professionals" or "experts." I would never buy from a breeder no matter how
legitimate - prefer to adopt from a shelter any time. Say again, who said you
had to read her posts? I don't! - Michelle
------------------------------------------------------------------------
To save time and energy on everyone's part, the following people are in
my killfile and I do not entertain e-mail from them: Andrew Mandeville,
Ange, Anne Sweeney, Bryan Hinkle, Bun Mui (Patrick Chung), Buran, C, dissident,
Donald Yee, Engdome, J Matthew Greene, Jim Tsou, Moe, Richard Lee, SAGE (and
aliases), Gina-D (and aliases), MoinA, Shabati, Greg Hartingdale, Gruengtep,
Alicia Knapp, Anne Green, Anthony Russo, BHK, Bob Maida, BOZO, Candace A. Hume,
Carrie Morton, Carol Dunster, Cat & Ace, CelticPhD (Leslie) ChBoxers(Joyce),
Cindii, Christy Overmann, Cindy O'Neal, Confucious, Daisy, Denna Lasik, Dennis
Gare, Dogman, Ed, Francis Farmer, Garrison St. Clair, Gary & Lois Edwards, Glenn
(yakkety-yak), Gman, Hastini, Jake Stone, Jane Webb, JaymeJ, Jeanne Figolah,
Jeremy Wilson, Joan Lasz, Joyce Roberts, Joy P. Vidheecharoen-Glatz, Kieron
Dodds, Korat,
Lablover, Leslie Mamer, Liz Bauer, Lwcollier, Marie Moore, Mary Kennedy, McKim,
Melanie L.Chang, Mishelle Fresener, Mojo's Mum(Terri/Dognus), Mtmn(Alan Stuart),
Mushroom, Nancy Holmes, Negativecreep, Ricardo Cabeza, Rick Ellis, Robert Crim,
Roxanne Neufeld, Ruth Mays, Sandra Pover, Saxon Brown, Stacy Ferguson, Steve
Barnard, Sue Abbott, Susan Mudgett, Tibbi Scott, Timothy Riordan, Vera Casteel,
Virginia Elliot, William Reeds, Yorstrooly, Yvette Hebb. This list will be
upated periodically.
Leslie Mamer
On 6 Aug 1997 15:21:58 GMT, itrai...@aol.com (ITrainDogs) wrote:
>Elizabeth I'm new here. I have been reading the dog groups
>on a friend's computer for months. You are correct, as there
>are many I've been communicating with via mail, who agree,
>they are just plain tired of hearing about these Collies. It was a
>horrible event, but time to move on.
>
Well let's see, Babs. Run through DejaNews and see how many posts in the
last 6 months have applied to "these Collies"? Go ahead.... it won't take
long. We've had nearly 9,000 visitors to the web site. Some have stopped to
comment. Most have sent their feelings in private e-mails. Not a single
objection to "tired about hearing about these Collies". I'd say almost
9,000 to 1 is a pretty good indicator of how we've been doing, and that
number is certainly NOT reflected in the numbers of newsgroup posts you'll
find archived on DejaNews.
Why don't you go tell a Jewish person to "move on" and "forget" about the
Holocaust?? I'll bet you'll get a very toasty reception there!!! Oh, and
don't forget to tell the people who are still trying to recover the MIA's
from Viet Nam....then go out and buy some Napalm insurance. Tell the Desert
Storm people who are sick and dying to forget about their illness
too.....but I'd be checking my ductwork after that if I were you!
>Leslie Mamer's filthy mouth is reprehensible.
Maybe so, but freedom of expression allows for "reprehensible filthy
mouths". Get used to it or get off the Newsgroups.
>
>-Barbara Greenall
Have a NICE day!
Wendy Duggan
Yes, they should be reminded. Absolutely. You know, *you* don't HAVE to
read any posts that you don't want to, but the new people to the group
may not have heard about this horrendous occurance. Simply don't read
any thread that "offends" your sensibilities.
NO ONE SHOULD FORGET THESE THESE DOGS AND THIS EVIL MAN. You can still
move on to "positive" issues while NEVER EVER forgetting this situation.
Maybe the CCA people want to forget about it (ashamed, maybe?), but that
doesn't mean that the majority of other dog people want to. And the CCA
ought to be the one spreading the word the MOST, not trying to sweep it
under the carpet.
ash...@mindless.com
In article <19970806215...@ladder02.news.aol.com>, itrai...@aol.com says...
>
>>Subject: Re: LESLIE MAMER BETRAYS JUSTICE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
>>From: lb3...@navix.net
>>Date: Wed, 06 Aug 1997 15:41:59 -0600
>>Message-ID: <8708993...@dejanews.com>
> Time to consider yourself
>>roadkill on the information super highway, insect. Pissing Dogman off was
>>a BIG mistake. I'm sure the bully-breeders aren't amused either. And the
>>only day that the Dan Pierce incident will be a "dead issue" is when he
>>himself is dead!! We'll make room in the torture chamber for you
>>
>
>
>
>-Barbara Greenall
Not real bright, are ya Babs?
--
Posted using Reference.COM http://www.reference.com
Browse, Search and Post Usenet and Mailing list Archive and Catalog.
InReference, Inc. accepts no responsibility for the content of this posting.
Dogman
On a cold day in Hell, 6 Aug 1997 22:48:43 GMT, itrai...@aol.com
(ITrainDogs) wrote:
[...]
>Oh, pleeeze girl, chill out.
>Every community has a "Dan Pierce" to deal
>with. Why should everyone on the Net worry about this guy? Quit beating a
>dead horse.
Chill this, Babs: if we find out about them, they'll join DAN PIERCE
and his Chamber of Horrors on yet ANOTHER web site.
We may NEVER have found out about Dan Pierce if it weren't for people
like Leslie Mamer.
Keep it up, Babs, it's disgusting, but VERY helpful, to see the kinds
of people that REPRESENT the CCA.
Geeeez, what a freakin' "club."
--
Dogman
qbt...@v1.arg
E-mail address rot13 encoded to foil advertising spam
Join in the hunt for NicKenChip! (our resident TROLL) <<-- A "must see" for newbies!
http://www.i1.net/~dogman/thehunt.htm
As of July 30, 1997 there are now 37 aliases on The Sybil List!
Remember the Pierce collies!
http://www.i1.net/~dogman/pierce.htm
"Scenes From A Death Camp"
On retriever field trials!
http://www.i1.net/~dogman/ontrials.htm
Retriever Field Trial News
http://www.retrievernews.com
Dogman
On a cold day in Hell, 5 Aug 1997 20:18:45 GMT, iampi...@aol.com
(IamPitbull) wrote:
>What an appropriate heading. Not only does Leslie Mamer betray justice,
>but she betrays the club she is a member of, the Collie Club of America
>and the breed. She gives the Collie breed a bad name.
[...]
It's hard to imagine anyone further injuring a club that rubs
shoulders, covers up for, and actually HELPS scumbags like DAN PIERCE
and his cronies.
Why anyone in their right mind would ever want to me known as a member
of the the CCA is simply beyond my comprehension.
ITrainDogs
>Subject: Re: COLLIE CLUB OF AMERICA BETRAYS BREED!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
>Date: Wed, 06 Aug 1997 20:23:01 -0400
>Message-ID: <33E915...@interport.net>
>Sorry you are wrong. Many communities may have an individual dog owner
>who abuses his/her dogs and many communities have puppy millers. But,
>thankfully, most communities don't have a Dan Pierce. When a so-called
>reputable breeder starves and abuses dogs as Dan Pierce did, it is a
>significant event of a very different hue than some greedy puppy miller.
>
>Breed organizations are supposed to represent the best - the people who
>care the most about the breed and devote their lives and livelihoods to
>caring for and producing high quality dogs - whether they be pets or
>show dogs. When a person priviledged to breed dogs causes harm or death
>to dogs, it is unforgivable and unforgettable.
>
>Jane M.
Hi Jane,
It's awful when anybody abuses or kills animals. They don't have to be a
reputable breeder for the crime to be sickening.
A dog's life is just that. As I said, every community has had a Pierce
type of experience. Rehashing the tragedy over and over helps to lose the
effectiveness of the problem.
Everyone is tired of hearing about it. That's my only point.
-Barbara Greenall
Wendy Duggan
ITrainDogs wrote:
> Girl, you can't be serious. Listen up. The Dan Pierce was dealt with by
> the courts. The justice system didn't work too well. No reason to loose
> sleep. It's over.
>
> I see the same 'ol people responding to these replies....Terri, Leslie,
> Dogman, Cat and nobody else.
>
> Does that tell you something? Let's move in girl, please.
>
> -Barbara Greenall
I don't much like being called nobody.....and there are a few more
"nobodies" who've also thrown in their .02 worth. Perhaps not as
eloquently or as frequently as Terri, Leslie, Dogman and Cat.....
The Dan Pierce situation is FAR from over. Your insistance that it IS is
ludicrous. What he did to those dogs is forever, and that fact that he's
trying, through his "fronts", to get his hands on MORE dogs to abuse, is
nothing short of criminal. As soon as we "move on" we set the stage for
him (and others) to continue their cruelty. And next time they'll know
better how to cover it up.....
Disgusting crawly things thrive in the dark. But shine the light on them
and they scuttle away. We must follow people like Dan Pierce with the
light until there are no dark places for them to hide.
ITrainDogs
>Subject: Re: COLLIE CLUB OF AMERICA BETRAYS BREED!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
>Date: Thu, 07 Aug 1997 07:46:12 -0400
>Message-ID: <33E9B5...@template.com>
>ITrainDogs wrote RE: dogman:
>> Yea, guess we will see. Every community in this world has experienced a
>> tragedy like this one. There are sick people everywhere. And fools like
>> you, who have never been exposed to the real world (beyond a keyboard)
>
>HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA--gasp choke cough! Is she talking about OUR
>Dogman? Never exposed to the real world? And what planet does
>*she* consider to be "the real world"? Sheesh!
>
Hey girl, I work everyday, but not from behind a keyboard! What medication
are you on?
-Barbara Greenall
ITrainDogs
>Subject: Re: COLLIE CLUB OF AMERICA BETRAYS BREED!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
>Date: Thu, 07 Aug 1997 19:54:00 GMT
>Message-ID: <341027d4...@news1.i1.net>
>
>On a cold day in Hell, 7 Aug 1997 17:03:43 GMT, itrai...@aol.com
>(ITrainDogs) wrote:
>
>[...]
>>>HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA--gasp choke cough! Is she talking about OUR
>>>Dogman? Never exposed to the real world? And what planet does
>>>*she* consider to be "the real world"? Sheesh!
>
>>Hey girl, I work everyday, but not from behind a keyboard! What
medication
>>are you on?
>>
>>-Barbara Greenall
>
>their sentences with "Hey girl," are either street hookers, black
>beauticians, cross-dressers, or Oprah Winfrey.
>
>Let me guess. Hmmmn. Okay. You're not Oprah Winfrey, eh?
>
>That leaves street hookers, black beauticians, or cross-dressers.
>
>Aah, never mind. That's close enough for me.
>
>
>--
>Dogman
>qbt...@v1.arg
>E-mail address rot13 encoded to foil advertising spam
>
>Join in the hunt for NicKenChip! (our resident TROLL) <<-- A "must see"
for
>newbies!
>http://www.i1.net/~dogman/thehunt.htm
>As of July 30, 1997 there are now 37 aliases on The Sybil List!
>
>Remember the Pierce collies!
>http://www.i1.net/~dogman/pierce.htm
>"Scenes From A Death Camp"
Names don't bother me. But I'm determined to find out what happened in
your childhood that you felt was a ~horror~ so you can set those Collies
free.
Abusive name calling and obsessions aren't healthy.
-Barbara Greenall
dogsnus
No, she's not. In fact, she's as dumb as a fence post.
AND she chose the wrong people to try and intimidate!
Which is why Im asking EVERYONE to copy the site and pictures
of the Pierce Collies, INCLUDING "BABS" posts to every single
place you frequent. Laundromats, Bowling Alleys, Work, Supermarket
bulletin boards, Humane shelters, Vet's offices, Petstores, EVERYWHERE!
Do NOT let this silly minded fool intimidate you into thinking she can
make you
can let this matter rest and be forgotten!
FIGHT! I want to see this
thing addressed in every single tabloid, every single local newspaper,
every single part of the world! Keep it up! The press is like a
bloodhound,
they scent blood ,they investigate!!! Let's make a* blood-scent *that
crosses
the entire world!
Ive got my design for a bumper sticker AND T-shirt in the works right
now.
Should anyone inquire,( and they DO ), Ive got handout ready and
available
for them to read.
Its time to stomp out this sort of thing AND the supporters of animal
abuse!
Terri
Lauri Carey
OK, Barb. You say you speak for 'everyone'.
I prefer to hear from them myself.
Please respond to this post with a simple yes or no - Are you tired of
hearing about Dan Pierce and the collies he murdered?
Lauri Carey
ITrainDogs <itrai...@aol.com> wrote in article
<19970807043...@ladder02.news.aol.com>...
> >Subject: Re: COLLIE CLUB OF AMERICA BETRAYS BREED!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
> >From: Jane McGroarty <jmc...@interport.net>
> >Date: Wed, 06 Aug 1997 20:23:01 -0400
> >Message-ID: <33E915...@interport.net>
>
snipped
Dogman
On a cold day in Hell, 6 Aug 1997 22:52:24 GMT, itrai...@aol.com
(ITrainDogs) wrote:
>>Dogman
>>qbt...@v1.arg
>>E-mail address rot13 encoded to foil advertising spam
>
>
>Yea, guess we will see. Every community in this world has experienced a
>tragedy like this one.
That's BULL CA CA. The DAN PIERCE incident is in a class all by
itself. And here's why.
Because as TRAGIC as this was by itself, as absolutely sickening to
the human sensibility as this incident was by itself, thanks to people
like YOU and the many other DAN PIERCE co-conspirators at the CCA,
like Jeanne Welch, this incident is about to be REPEATED again!
That's what makes this incident so UNIQUE to any others that I've ever
even heard of. The absolute NONCHALANCE of the CCA (and other sickos
like you Babs) regarding this matter is almost as sickening as the
actual incident itself!
And now, to see this incident about to be REPEATED, thanks to the
COMPLICITY of the CCA and the "Dan Fans," puts THIS incident in a
class all by itself!
The horror. The horror.
>There are sick people everywhere.
That may be true, but there appears to be a CLUSTER of sick people at
the CCA, eh?
I wonder what the demographers would say about that? Hmnnnnnn.
>And fools like you, who have never been exposed to the real world
> (beyond a keyboard) get all excited and make people like Pierce famous.
Your clairvoyance is on a par with your ignorance, Babs. Of course,
if the "real world" meant being confined to some Nut Farm surrounded
by a moat, no, I've never been to one. But the odds are good that
YOU have, ain't that right, Babs?
Only someone totally desensitized to pain and suffering, like in
LOBOTOMIZED, could remain so absolutely nonchalant about what happened
to those DAN PIERCE collies!
I may, indeed, be a fool, Babs, but I'd rather be a fool than a cruel,
compassionless, nonchalant nazi-bastard with no heart.
Like you, Babs.
>BTW, how did you get along with your father?
>
>-Barbara Greenall
Do you fancy yourself some kind of amateur psychologist, Babs? Or are
you simply running out of things to say?
Because if it weren't for all your many uses of phrases like "hey
girl" and "how did you get along with your father/mother" it's very
clear that you really don't have much to say, do you, Babs?
That's what I thought. Geeez.
--
Dogman
qbt...@v1.arg
E-mail address rot13 encoded to foil advertising spam
Join in the hunt for NicKenChip! (our resident TROLL) <<-- A "must see" for newbies!
http://www.i1.net/~dogman/thehunt.htm
As of July 30, 1997 there are now 37 aliases on The Sybil List!
Remember the Pierce collies!
http://www.i1.net/~dogman/pierce.htm
"Scenes From A Death Camp"
On retriever field trials!
Dogman
On a cold day in Hell, 7 Aug 1997 21:46:23 GMT, itrai...@aol.com
(ITrainDogs) wrote:
[...]
>>>>HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA--gasp choke cough! Is she talking about OUR
>>>>Dogman? Never exposed to the real world? And what planet does
>>>>*she* consider to be "the real world"? Sheesh!
>>
>>>Hey girl, I work everyday, but not from behind a keyboard! What
>>>medication
>>>are you on?
>>>
>>>-Barbara Greenall
>>
>>You know, Babs, it appears to me that the people who always start off
>>their sentences with "Hey girl," are either street hookers, black
>>beauticians, cross-dressers, or Oprah Winfrey.
>>
>>Let me guess. Hmmmn. Okay. You're not Oprah Winfrey, eh?
>>
>>That leaves street hookers, black beauticians, or cross-dressers.
>>
>>Aah, never mind. That's close enough for me.
>>Dogman
>>qbt...@v1.arg
>>E-mail address rot13 encoded to foil advertising spam
>Names don't bother me.
Unfortunately, Babs, I know that. How? Because all those dead
collies, those same collies that were slowly starved to death and
eaten by maggots, yes, DAN PIERCE'S collies, didn't seem to "bother"
you very much either, eh?
So what could being called a few names possibly do to you compared to
that, eh?
>But I'm determined to find out what happened in your childhood that
> you felt was a ~horror~ so you can set those Collies free.
Sorry, Babs, you should start looking at YOURSELF, not at me. I lived
what can only be called an Ozzie and Harriet childhood, Babs. Great
parents, great childhood.
>Abusive name calling and obsessions aren't healthy.
>
>-Barbara Greenall
Oh, but it keeps me out of jail, eh?
If I didn't get to release some of that STEAM that builds up inside me
whenever I look at or hear about those poor collies or have to listen
to how NONCHALANT all you CCA collie people are about the whole
incident -- I'd probably hunt you all down, one by one, and rip your
HEARTS out and EAT THEM.
So hope that I ONLY keep calling you names, Babs, and that I don't do
anything else.
lb3...@navix.net
In article <19970806025...@ladder01.news.aol.com>,
cca...@aol.com (CCAPita) wrote:
> Yeah you both would think that's real funny. That's the kind of mentality
> you both have. It only took her one year, with you at the helm, to undo
> what the previous owner had worked a lifetime for! That's real
> hysterical. I bet she laughed all the way to the bank. She really
> thought a magazine could be carried by someone like you--the laughing
> stock of Collies. Doug, you are losing it!
Speaking from experience TROLL? Time to change your screen name
again....how about TROLL...@aol.com?? Oh, I forgot. You hold stock in
the soon to be defunct Collie Expressions. Yeah....I hear that the CE
publisher wants out, too. Ever think it's people like you who drive
magazines into the ground??
Here's a thought, since I know you can't give birth to one on your own:
why don't YOU take over the CCA BULLETIN when it's present Editor bails
out next year. Now, since Doug isn't a CCA member he can't be in the
remotest neighborhood of responsibility for the loss of yet ANOTHER
Editor!!! EGADS!!!! Then we would all be subject to such imbecilic tripe
as "Whelping Puppies With Carmen Leonard..."; and my personal favorite,
the JAVMA-published (NOT!!) reprint of bloat first aid, developed and
supported by the Great Dane Club of America. They, who had the foresight
and openness of mind to look at a serious problem without worrying about
*who* got the credit!!! Naaawww... with you at the helm of the BULLETIN
we'll be awash in self-agrandizing ad-libs from Schwartz about how
healthy *she* has single-handedly made the breed (again, NOT!!!)
> >I'm glad you have more to lose.. it'll be that much more fun when >I *do*
> pull you out into the light! BTW, *don't* think that an AOL
> >account is going to make you safe. ;-) There's been a history of
> >identifying TROLLS on this newsgroup.
>
> Who cares Doug, that your life's work has become hunting down and exposing
> AOL trolls.
YOU care, TROLL!!! Getting worried that Doug and so many others are
getting particularly adept at exterminating you CYBER-LICE???? See, when
they get your IP, your covers will be pulled and you'll be bare-ass NAKED
to the masses of REAL dog people just waiting to shred you for trying to
cloud the issue on this thread: the absolute responsibility incumbent
upon the Collie Club of America to defend and protect it's breed and
membership from the Pierce cronies like Keefer!!
Do you really think this has some kind of relevance to people
> in dogs? This is what the Great Review writer is reduced to? You make me
> so nervous, I don't know if I can finish this message. Doug, honestly,
> you are worse off than I ever thought!
How's that, TROLL?? There were a LOT of writers and contributors to the
Review on a regular basis. Can you say "Impromptu Repartee", hmmm????
Forgetting the regular columnists intentionally??? Want everyone to think
that you are some kind of "newbie" who never heard of the Review until 4
years ago??? Naawww...TROLL. I know you've been slithering around long
enough to know that a majority of the "important friends" you claim to
have were columnists or regular contributors CONCURRENTLY with Doug
Jones. <sound of the TROLL's sphincter contracting> HEHEHEHEHEHEH
>
> I will reiterate, READ MY LIPS---one thing I never accused you of is
> having any kind of knowledge whatsoever. I don't care what you saw or did
> at that National. Obviously you don't see very well, or you were so busy
> chasing around after Leslie, you're vision was blurred. That'll do it
> everytime.
Oh, I see... you spew specious LIES which are handily refuted by other
posters who WERE at the Nationals and saw my dogs and now you want to
dismiss the claims because you can no longer support them. Oh, and let's
muddy it up with a lot of sexual innuendo. Okay, but you won't like it
very well when we have your subscriptions to "SLUT Magazine" cancelled
and they want the money back that they paid you for doing that "scratch
'n sniff" fold-out.
Speaking of Mamer, where is she? Did she get cold feet and
> send you to fight her battles? Not up to the task anymore? That's a
> bad sign. Next, you'll send along Del. NEXT------
Ooops, Asshole!! Spoke a tad too soon, eh? And I plan to be your worst
freakin' nightmare for LIFE.......BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA! 'Course, I'll have
to share that spot with only a few THOUSAND others who are after your
chickenshit ass. Maybe you forgot that TROLLING a newsgroup is like
flashing kindergardeners: punishable by ass-reaming!!!
>
> There's that Klan stuff again. It's really weird how none of you can make
> a response without some mention of it. And you want to be taken
> seriously? (that's a morbid thought, in itself!))
Well, we so commonly find your membership cards in the "Fourth Reiche" and
"KlanspeopleAnonymous" among the remaining ashes....
> > you really need to keep your stories straight. It makes you
> >look even stupider than you are.
>
> Is this your best shot--this is the best you can do? You need to give
> this a rest, as you are losing it man--if you ever had it!
Putt...putttt....sphwttttzzz :<sound of CCAPita running out of steam>
>
> >you'd like to regale us with? Keep posting, TROLL. Let the >world see
> what sort of people supported Dan.
>
> Move on Doug. The Dan Pierce issue is dead--gone---buried. It's time for
> you to start thinking about something else in life, like maybe breeding
> some quality dogs, making a contribution other than making a nuisance of
> yourself.
No TROLL!!! The Dan Pierce issue will NEVER be dead--gone--buried. Just
you, MAGGOT SHIT!!! The one reality which doesn't seem to have sunk
through to that poverty of intellect you call a brain is that REAL dog
people will ALWAYS care about the brutal savagery Pierce perpetrated; and
the disgraceful stain that the CCA has left on the carpet for all to see
and smell in their recognitiona and handling of the matter....INCLUDING
but not limited to the no-questions-asked reinstatement of a member
already proven to have been enmeshed in his crimes!!
> >There's nothing like the light to kill a troll.
>
> You and your trolls-- who cares?
YOU do, TROLL. We can hear those bullets of sweat plinking to the
floor...heheheh
> > You *still* haven't answered any serious question in this thread.
> >You have been ducking and weaving a lot.. getting real defensive
> yourself.
>
> If I really thought you were interested in hearing my answers to the
> questions below, I would be more than happy to communicate with you. But
> you are almost like an unintelligible life form. You would be impossible
> to communicate with on any rational level. You would listen to nothing I
> had to say. If by some chance you did listen, you would contradict
> everything without the facts to back it up. One thing has become very
> obvious, you are jealous as hell that Mary Ann was let back in the club,
> while you were denied membership. Why don't you start your own club---It
> could be called The Collie Club of Discontent.
!WARNING! BULLSHIT METER OVERLOAD!!! Borrowing from one of my own
descriptions of you again, I see. Uh..TROLL??? His contradictions of your
incoherent exudate yhave been right on point - including the one on your
head! You have not once offered any factual evidence to dispute those
with whom you disagree. Typical TROLL behavior. JEALOUS??? Of Mary Ann
Keefer????? Doug has no apirations to become a 380lb. tub of gelatinous
offal. At the time he reapplied, the Pierce incident hadn't even been
uncovered! Nor would he have reapplied had he known that the Club had
degenerated to being led by a plurality of ignorance. You assholes did
him a favor! The rest of us are left with governance by the illiterate,
irresponsible, opressive, insensitive control-freaks who go positively
apopleptic at the mention of the Consitution (theirs or all of ours) or
of moral and ethical obligations!!
>
> >Now, let's get *back* to the thread... Do you really think Mary Ann
> >Keefer *didn't* know about what Dan was doing? Do you approve of her
> >being re-instated to membership? What is *your* opinion of the lack
> >of response to Dan's case by the CCA? It was a no-lose proposition
> >for them... They could've stood on a stump, screaming their heads off
> >about how horrible it was... and they really didn't have to do
> >anything else, because he wasn't a member. No suspension procedures
> >necessary (not that they can get those right)! But, instead....
> >silence.
> >
> >So, are you going to continue to throw smoke to cover the CCA?
> Bye Doug--bring on the next discontent--I have grown tired of you. You're
> about as much fun as Leslie!
OOOOHHHHHHHH!!!! I'm soooooo wounded, TROLL! ROTFLMAOTNTPMP.....
Anybody home up there TROLL?? He asked you a valid, intelligent question.
Oops....sorry. I forgot that intelligence had escaped you, MORON! But hey,
thanks for opening the door to my *next* disclosure of lunacy at the upper
echelons. Better pass the Valium, Toots.
Diane Blackman
Oh for heavens sake. She cares because she cares. I'm more interested
in knowing why you want to diminish that caring with psycho mumbo jumbo.
--
Diane Blackman
di...@dog-play.com http://www.dog-play.com
- - - - - - - - - - - -
ITrainDogs (itrai...@aol.com) wrote:
<snip>
: Please Terri, think about what I've said. What do the Collies remind you
: of? What really happened in your life that made you feel like this. Talk
: to someone about it and set yourself free.
: -Barbara Greenall
ITrainDogs
>Subject: Re: LESLIE MAMER BETRAYS JUSTICE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
>Date: Thu, 07 Aug 1997 18:39:13 -0700
>Message-ID: <5sdplb$3...@news1.zippo.com>
>
>ash...@mindless.com wrote:
>> >
>>
>> >-Barbara Greenall
>>
>> Not real bright, are ya Babs?
>
>No, she's not. In fact, she's as dumb as a fence post.
>AND she chose the wrong people to try and intimidate!
Intimidate? No, girl! You got me beat in that department.
>Which is why Im asking EVERYONE to copy the site and pictures
>of the Pierce Collies, INCLUDING "BABS" posts to every single
>place you frequent. Laundromats, Bowling Alleys, Work, Supermarket
>bulletin boards, Humane shelters, Vet's offices, Petstores, EVERYWHERE!
>Do NOT let this silly minded fool intimidate you into thinking she can
>make you
>can let this matter rest and be forgotten!
Terri, why is it now so important to try and lander my name? I didn't
starve the Pierce Collies. I didn't commit any crimes. I didn't badger and
harass the prosecutors in this case. Your cronies did. And everytime you
scream you drive logical people so far away from your cause, it's self
defeating. But i realize you cannot help yourself in your current mental
state.
> FIGHT! I want to see this
>thing addressed in every single tabloid, every single local newspaper,
>every single part of the world! Keep it up! The press is like a
>bloodhound,
>they scent blood ,they investigate!!! Let's make a* blood-scent *that
>crosses
>the entire world!
Anger! Desperation! Avoidance! Revenge!
Who hurt you, Terri? Who abused you? Were you a child or did it happen
recently? Pull yourself together from this sheer madness and try and
figure out who you really are. Think of those Collies. What does it make
you "feel" like? What does it really remind you of? The others on these
groups aren't acting like you. Have you considered the possibility you
might have a serious emotional problem?
>Ive got my design for a bumper sticker AND T-shirt in the works right
>now.
>Should anyone inquire,( and they DO ), Ive got handout ready and
>available
>for them to read.
>
>Its time to stomp out this sort of thing AND the supporters of animal
>abuse!
>Terri
Terri, I don't support animal abuse. Every community has some deviant who
enjoys abusing animals and it's up to the criminal justice system to take
care of the problem, not a self-appointed vigilante like you, who has
become so obsessed, you are unable to control yourself or see the harm
your are doing to yourself and others.
ITrainDogs
>Subject: Re: COLLIE CLUB OF AMERICA BETRAYS BREED!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
>Date: Thu, 07 Aug 1997 19:36:33 -0600
>Message-ID: <8709234...@dejanews.com>
>
>
>
>> Oh, pleeeze girl, chill out. Every community has a "Dan Pierce" to
>deal
>> with. Why should everyone on the Net worry about this guy? Quit
>beating a
>> dead horse.
>>
>Pardon me, but maybe in your community, but certainly not in mine.
>Here they hang sons of bitches like that from the closest tree, then
>dump the body in the woods.
>
>I think they refer to ot as Southern Justice.
>
Pardon me, but don't get caught. Better to let the authorities handle it.
-Barbara Greenall
ITrainDogs
>Subject: Re: COLLIE CLUB OF AMERICA BETRAYS BREED!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
>From: scr...@scritto.com
>Date: 7 Aug 1997 17:30:16 -0700
>Message-ID: <5sdpao$b...@drn.zippo.com>
>
>In article <19970808002...@ladder01.news.aol.com>,
edgu...@aol.com
>says...
>>
>>>Subject: Re: COLLIE CLUB OF AMERICA BETRAYS BREED!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
>>>From: scr...@scritto.com
>>>Date: 7 Aug 1997 11:22:54 -0700
>>>Message-ID: <5sd3pu$k...@drn.zippo.com>
>>
>>>Sure - find whoever you like to be objectionable. But she has a right
to
>>post
>>>and do whatever she wants to with her web site. In the case of the
Pierce
>>>Collies, it's fair warning to new dog owners to be careful who they buy
>>their
>>>puppies from and train their dogs with, even and especially people who
>>claim
>>>to
>>>be "professionals" or "experts." I would never buy from a breeder no
>>matter
>>>how
>>>legitimate - prefer to adopt from a shelter any time. Say again, who
said
>>you
>>>had to read her posts? I don't! - Michelle
>>>
>>
>>Connie and I viewed the Pierce Collies and it wasn't very pleasant. I
can
>>understand why some would want to forget about this, and why others
would
>>fight to prevent this from happening again. I wonder why this character
>>didn't get any jailtime?
>>
>>ED & CONNIE GURSKIN
>>
>>http://www.expage.com/page/gurskins
>
>Same question I asked on Mamer's website when I posted there. I also
don't
>understand how he's allowed to continue having dogs - Michelle
Hi Scritto!
Diane Blackman
It's funny. I was skipping this thread entirely. But you managed to
catch my attention. I started noticing that you weren't complaining that
people are wrong, you are complaining that they care. Changes come from
that intense focussed caring. Why should things be any better if people
will just let bad things go quietly away. Change is rarely comfortable or
easy. It's accomplished by people who care enough to keep things stirred
up for as long as it takes to accomplish that change. I applaud that
intensity as necessary for the health of our society.
If you can't participate in those changes then just get out of the way.
--
Diane Blackman
ITrainDogs (itrai...@aol.com) wrote:
: Let's all try and forget the Pierce Collies and move on. This is turning
: into a slaughter house and I'm personally tired of reading about it.
: Move on!
Mushroom
NO. It should be talked forever!
Lauri Carey wrote:
> OK, Barb. You say you speak for 'everyone'.
>
> I prefer to hear from them myself.
>
> Please respond to this post with a simple yes or no - Are you tired
> of
> hearing about Dan Pierce and the collies he murdered?
>
> Lauri Carey
>
> ITrainDogs <itrai...@aol.com> wrote in article
> <19970807043...@ladder02.news.aol.com>...
> > >Subject: Re: COLLIE CLUB OF AMERICA BETRAYS
> BREED!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Ch Boxers
In article <33E8B4...@zzyx.ucsc.edu>, Wendy Duggan
<we...@zzyx.ucsc.edu> writes:
>Ramseys of this world are scum, and we
>cannot ever forget that, MUST NOT ever forget that. If it makes someone
>uncomfortable to be reminded of this, good. All the more chance it will
>be remembered for a long, long time.
Uh, we gotta remember here folks that although Pierce was found guilty,
the Ramseys have not yet been charged, let alone convicted. I'm not
defending them but we shouldn't throw them in with Pierce just yet.
Joyce G.
Cat in Alaska
In article <19970808045...@ladder01.news.aol.com>, itrai...@aol.com
says...
>
>>Subject: Re: COLLIE CLUB OF AMERICA BETRAYS BREED!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
>>Date: Thu, 07 Aug 1997 18:08:33 -0700
>>Message-ID: <5sdnt7$a...@news2.zippo.com>
>>
>>ITrainDogs wrote:
<extensive snippage done>
>
>No, Terri. I am really concerned for you. Your obsession with the Collies
>is not healthy. Do you see others on this group, acting like you? The
>frustration you are *feeling* is the result of something else in your life
>that made you feel helpless, and now you are acting out in a rage.
No, but I sure see someone who is squirming over the issue. Or better put,
someone who's going to be squirming...
>>Well, most of us in this category love animals, and dont intend to let
>>another Pierce go unnoticed thouroughout life, nor his supporters.
>>No, we're not the mentally afflicted, YOU are.
>
>
>You won't find too many people who love animals as much as I do. But you
>are now totally blinded by emotions and cannot control yourself.
>
>
>>So many times,
>>> recations like yours, could indicate being caught in a abusive
>>> relationship, or you could be suffering from an abusive childhood.
>
>
>>BAHWAHAHAHA!!!! Not even a close equal to a really good troll!Yet
>>onether
>>self-immersed yokel, attempting poor attempts in armchair high school-
>>techno-mumbo-jumbo!
>>Thanks for the smile!
>
>
>Mumbo-jumbo? Isn't that another term Dogman uses frequently? You need to
>find out what is really bothering you and "find yourself" so your self
>esteem can be restored.
BWAAHAAHAAHAA
Psychotherepy definiately *ain't* your bag... my kid can do better than that.
>
>You are now so out of control you have actually lost your ability to
>logically deal with the Pierce Collies. I am not a Collie owner. I am not
>a member of the CCA, nor do I know anyone personally, who is. I have been
>receiving numerous letters from people who have taken different positions
>about the Pierce Collies.
Yadda, yadda, yadda, and I'm Mother Theresa, right??
Stop, think... avoids real issues, claims to have emails not shown, likes to be
in the center of attention while ungracefully side-stepping anything that has
any importance in most people's lives.... sound familiar Terri, Dogman?
>
>If you print my name in your flyers as someone who is involved in a
>coverup, then you'd be a liar, period. I have no involvement with the
>Pierce Collies. The matter was handled by the courts and many are unhappy
>with the way the prosecutors dealt with this. Do you know why the
>prosecutors backed off and offered Pierce a plea? Because they were
>suspicious of the screaming lunatics who were loudly demanding hard
>jailtime fir him. They smelled something funny. Do you blame them?
SOMEBODY please give this *person* a definition of the term "cover-up". Oh never
mind... I'll do it.
From Webster's- Cover up: to cover entirely, to keep blunders, crimes, facts,
etc. from being known. To conceal information
Now Barbara, according to Webster's dictionary (and I'm sure the "Watergate"
folks could give you an even more 'in depth' definition), Terri would not be
considered a liar in this case, because you are indeep trying to get this
particular discussion squelched.
>There you are again. So pitiful and out of control, suggesting I am
>involved in a coverup.
If you aren't part of the solution, then you're part of the problem...
>That's a result of anger. And now you step out into the spotlight to
>slander me when I have no connection with the Pierce Collies. Some
>therapy, possibly medication, and a vacation is what your would benefits
>from now. Not slandering, yelling, and seeking instant gratification that
>will void your overall cause. Wake up, please.
As has been mentioned here before... the term is lible, and I doubt very
seriously that it has been done in this thread by Terri.
>Yes, Terri. Remember my name. Barbara Greenall. Someone who tried to help
>you and talk some logical sense into your distorted logic. What little
>logic is actually left. I have searched up some dejanews articles, along
>with letters from others, and have learned you became angry at some other
>users, and encouraged Dogman to construct a website containing a "Sybil"
>list.
BWAAAAHAAAAHAAAHAAAHAAAHAAAHAAAHAA!!!!
WHEEEEEEEE
Troll *will* out.
Yes, Terri, *defininately* remember THAT name!!! Read in context.
(***ROTFLMAO***)
Cat
(still on the *original* mission)
<snip>
>-Barbara Greenall
(yeah... right...)
Ch Boxers
In article <5saljj$t...@drn.zippo.com>, Cat in Alaska
<out...@mosquitonet.com> writes:
>The reason that you have perhaps not gotten as much response on this
thread
>is
>that Leslie and Dogman have been doing a wonderful job so far in
defending
>their
>position. Just remember that they speak for *many* of us on the group,
and if
>you'd like to call for a "vote" here, I'll bet dollars to donuts that
your
>views
>are gonna lose--hands down.
>Cat in Alaska
Hi Cat,
You didn't exactly call for a vote, but I wanted to throw mine in anyway.
No one, not ever should be allowed to forget Pierce and what was done to
those poor Collies. I've followed this entire thread and haven't
commented before simply because like you, I agree that Leslie and Dogman
are speaking for all of us. May Pierce burn in hell and all of his
"supporters" along with him.
Joyce G.
dwa...@mika.com
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
On 4 Aug 1997 02:38:28 GMT, cca...@aol.com (CCAPita) wrote:
> You didn't unsubscribe from the list---you were
> kicked off---suspended
I can't really speak to the other points made in this post, so
I've clipped them out. But this one I CAN respond to. I own
and moderate the list being spoken of here, and I can tell you
that NOBODY has yet been "kicked off." Some warnings have been
issued, of course. I would be a liar if I said that I hadn't
issued one such warning to Leslie. But she left VOLUNTARILY.
It wasn't even my idea - I asked her to come back. She decided
to stay away for a while, because of the heat being generated
here.
- --
Dwayne Bailey + WHAT is your name? Sir Galahad
MIKA Systems, Bingham Farms, MI + WHAT is your quest? I Seek the Holy Grail
dwa...@mika.com + What is your favorite color?
http://www.mika.com/~dwayne + Blue ... no, Yelloooooooooooooooooow
finger dwa...@mika20.mika.com for PGP Public Key
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Tanzendog
NO!!
>
>Please respond to this post with a simple yes or no - Are you tired of
>hearing about Dan Pierce and the collies he murdered?
Candace A. Hume
Tanzen Poodles
Doug Jones
No
Doug Jones
Norbrook Collies
"Lauri Carey" <care...@iwc.net> wrote:
>OK, Barb. You say you speak for 'everyone'.
>
>I prefer to hear from them myself.
>
>Please respond to this post with a simple yes or no - Are you tired of
>hearing about Dan Pierce and the collies he murdered?
>
>Lauri Carey
>
>ITrainDogs <itrai...@aol.com> wrote in article
><19970807043...@ladder02.news.aol.com>...
>> >Subject: Re: COLLIE CLUB OF AMERICA BETRAYS BREED!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Wendy Duggan
I believe that in the AKC Gazette (don't remember which issue, but
recent) Ramsey was listed as suspended as a result of the court case. As
I recall, you are correct in that he wasn't CONVICTED of cruelty, but
used one of those legal "outs" (maybe nolo contendre?)....he had to have
been charged to plea (or whatever it was he did), and the AKC won't
suspend until after the court case is over.
I'll have to see if I still have that Gazette at the house....and post
the details if I can find it. Or maybe someone else has it at their
fingertips?
ITrainDogs
>Subject: Re: COLLIE CLUB OF AMERICA BETRAYS BREED!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
>Date: 8 Aug 1997 10:36:38 GMT
>Message-ID: <19970808103...@ladder01.news.aol.com>
>
>In article <19970807043...@ladder02.news.aol.com>,
>itrai...@aol.com (ITrainDogs) writes:
>
>>A dog's life is just that. As I said, every community has had a Pierce
>>type of experience. Rehashing the tragedy over and over helps to lose
the
>>effectiveness of the problem.
>>
>>
>>-Barbara Greenall
>>
>>
>
>will keep it fresh in everyones mind and maybe, just maybe, some other
>owner/handler/breeder will think twice about the ramifications before
they
>do what Pierce did. He may have thought that he was only letting a few
>useless dogs die, but he was so very wrong. His reputation is destroyed
>and perhaps the next "Dan Pierce" will remember his persecution before
>allowing the same thing to happen to them.
>
>Joyce G.
Well then you won't mind if I post some photos of dead children who were
killed in a bloody crash, and hit by a drunk driver? I'll post them every
night so we can remind everyone not to drive drunk? My brother in law
showed me the photos, he's a trooper.
That OK with you, girl? Eventually you might wish to see some ~positive~
images.
-Barbara Greenall
ITrainDogs
>Subject: Re: COLLIE CLUB OF AMERICA BETRAYS BREED!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
>Date: 8 Aug 1997 04:39:35 GMT
>Message-ID: <5se7u7$ju5$2...@nntp1.ba.best.com>
>
>It's funny. I was skipping this thread entirely. But you managed to
>catch my attention. I started noticing that you weren't complaining that
>people are wrong, you are complaining that they care. Changes come from
>that intense focussed caring. Why should things be any better if people
>will just let bad things go quietly away. Change is rarely comfortable
or
>easy. It's accomplished by people who care enough to keep things stirred
>up for as long as it takes to accomplish that change. I applaud that
>intensity as necessary for the health of our society.
>
>If you can't participate in those changes then just get out of the way.
>--
>Diane Blackman
What changes Dianne? If you wish to change the laws for mandatory
sentences then lobby the legislature.
I applaud the intensity also. Being vigilantes and publishing names and
addresses across the internet could have a backlash effect and harm
others.
Changes are more effective when done correctly.
-Barbara Greenall
Bryan Hinkle
: I prefer to hear from them myself.
Agreed.......
: Please respond to this post with a simple yes or no - Are you tired of
: hearing about Dan Pierce and the collies he murdered?
: Lauri Carey
Evein if I *were* the answer would be NO. It can NEVER be forgotten
or covered up.
: > Everyone is tired of hearing about it. That's my only point.
Who is that shadowy "everyone" you refer to Barbara? Do you presume
yourself to be spokesperson for all of us? Or perhaps you have some
reason you'd prefer this dry up and fade away?
B.
: >
: > -Barbara Greenall
: >
ITrainDogs
>Subject: Re: COLLIE CLUB OF AMERICA BETRAYS BREED!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
>Date: 7 Aug 1997 23:16:25 -0700
>Message-ID: <5sedjp$k...@drn.zippo.com>
>
>>Hi Scritto!
>>
>>The law works in mysterious ways. I recall that pitbull that was thrown
>>from the car. How did things work out for ya?
>>
>>
>>-Barbara Greenall
>
I
>MISS
>HIM!!!!! I have the story in installments on *my* website ;-) at
>http://scritto.com/mt_puppy.html and http://scritto.com/mt_puppy2.html,
with
>pcitures coming next week or so ... At least my beagle's eating now! He's
>been
>so jealous he hasn't eaten for three days! (He can afford it, but he was
>beginning to scare us!) - Michelle
So happy to hear he was rescued! Bless you!
-Barbara Greenall
Mary Kennedy
NO!!!
CelticPhD
NO - anyone who wants to can delete the messages, for all the new people
on the list daily it serves as a reminder to look behind appearances when
dealing with anyone in dogs.
Leslie
Christy O
No
MissusToad
Yes - in terms of quantity of messages per day - NO in terms of people's
"tags" and less frequent posting. . . and certainly not the message in and
of itself.
FanFan1928
No!
Please respond to this post with a simple yes or no - Are you tired of
hearing about Dan Pierce and the collies he murdered?
Lauri Carey
Barbara Fletcher
MtnMan5
NO.
Alan Stuart
CelticPhD
>Oh for heavens sake. She cares because she cares. I'm more interested
in knowing why you want to diminish that caring with psycho mumbo jumbo.
-
Ditto, Diane! I, too, wonder why Ms. Greenall is so obsessed with sweeping
the Pierce collie outrage under a rug - and why she is trying popular
psyche 101 here to denigrate someone else's concern... After all, she
doesn't have to read about the collies - I assume her computer has a
delete key like everyone else's?
Leslie
FanFan1928
Nah, hanging the SOB would be too easy on him. Perhaps some of the really
traditional methods would be best...such as staking him out next to a red
ant bed with honey in every body orifice??
Barbara Fletcher
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------> with. Why should everyone on
CCAPita
One more item of interest:
----*A new club on the Horizon*----
THE COLLIE CLUB OF DISCONTENT, Inc.
President: Leslie HH Mamer (AKA Dogman, Cat from Alaska,
Terri)
Vice President: Doug "Troll Hunter" Jones
1st Vice President: Athena What's-her-face
2nd Vice President: Delmont "Robed Society" Fredricks
Treasurer: Dogman, Eh?
Secretary: Leslie HH Mamer
Bulletin Editor: Leslie Rugg
Executive Committee: Abolished per order of the President
Director At Large: Leslie HH Mamer
Gazette Columnist: Terri the terror from cyberspace
Committees: Under advisement per order by President
Ethics Committee: Dan Pierce (as his punishment for his war crimes)
Health Committee: Dan Pierce
OBJECT: SHALL BE TO ENCOURAGE PEOPLE WITH NOTHING BETTER TO DO, IN THE
FINE ART OF LYING, FABRICATING, INSULTING, TRASHING AND BASHING. LEARN HOW
TO WITCH HUNT AND PLACE BLAME EFFECTIVELY. PEOPLE INTERESTED IN THE
COLLIE BREED-NOT WELCOME AND NEED NOT APPLY. ALL EMOTIONAL WRECKS ARE
WELCOME TO JOIN. WE WELCOME THE MALADJUSTED-THE DISCONTENTED. LEARN HOW
TO CUSS!!. ANYONE WITH A DEGREE OF SANITY---STAY THE HELL AWAY!
VISIT OUR WEBSITE, CONCENTRATING ON ONE SUBJECT-(SURPRISE)---DAN "THE MAN"
PIERCE. SORRY BUT WE HAVE'T BEEN ABLE TO THINK OF ANYTHING ELSE FOR THE
PAST YEAR!! BUT STAY TUNED---BECAUSE WHEN WE DO--------LOOKOUT!!
CCAPita
My god, girl--are you settled down yet? That posting you sent with the
venom, hatred, anger and sputum spewing from your monitor must have been a
sight to behold! I can just envision you slumped over your keyboard,
foaming and frothing at the mouth! It is very obvious the entire club
thing is eating you from the inside out. Your continual haranguing must
have some people wondering why you continue wasting your time, money and
energy on club membership-in a club you so despise-that according to you
encourages and promotes people like Dan Pierce. If other people really
knew the entire truth, they would probably be amazed. As usual your
posts are full of loose facts, half-truths and just plain out and out
lies. Your position is so shaky and weak that you have to resort to
fabrication and name-calling. It is a known fact when a person resorts to
such behavior, they are losing ground! Therefore, Mamer, the only part of
your post that I will deal with are the outright lies. Take a deep
breath-wipe that spit off your face and count to 10-THEN TAKE CONTROL OF
YOURSELF.
Lie #1- I was never on the old Collie List-not as a subscriber or as a
poster. Not only can this be verified by the list moderator, but by the
scores of people subscribing to the list. No forwarded posts were made.
I e-mailed you privately twice and once recently-nothing more. If you are
attempting to make a case that I have been dogging you --good luck. If
you do happen to have posts I supposedly made to the List, they are
completely forged. Too many people were on that list for you to get away
with lying about this one.
Lie #2- you were suspended, from the old Collie list (moderator Ashley
McClure) along with another party because the two of you were going back
and forth and had both been warned by the moderator. You did not
unsubscribe because I was supposedly "trolling" you.
Lie #3- I am sure the hackers of the DES encryption code would really want
to waste their time finding out my identity!
Lie #4- The DM project was dumped because of the Veterinarian involved.
The club chose to take their chances with a more reliable Veterinarian
and situation, as the previous one lost her tenure.
Lie #5- No one purposely schemed to suspend the previous President--she
did it all by herself, by not following the constitution and by her
mean-spirited actions.
Lie #6- The "club peons" did meet at the 1996 National-only 32 people
showed up. Out of this number, a majority was there simply out of
curiosity. The purpose of the club is not to provide a forum or meeting
place for a bunch of dissidents and malcontents.
Lie #7- I had nothing to do with the Dan Pierce case-not with him
personally or his attorney's-nor have I supported him nor am I a fan of
his. I don't even know the man. Why would I give him money for an
attorney? I have absolutely no involvement or any connection with that
case in any stretch of the imagination.
Lie #8- DAN PIERCE IS NOT, WAS NOT AND NEVER HAS BEEN A MEMBER OF THE
COLLIE CLUB OF AMERICA. I notice you conveniently fail to ever mention
this fact in your tirades. Why or what could the club do in the case of a
person that is not a member? Absolutely nothing!! If he had been a
member, the club would have dealt with it. As it was, the club had
absolutely no authority or power to do one single thing to the man!! FYI,
the Club secretary did acknowledge in the April Bulletin that the AKC had
suspended him. What else did you want her to do? Go out and shoot
somebody?
Lie #9- Dan Pierce happened to be the co-breeder of the Best Of Breed
winner at the 1994 National Specialty. He didn't own or co-own the dog,
as you so imply. Besides which, this win was a full two years prior to
his arrest.
Lie #10- Anyone who disagrees with you is a "Dan Fan"--I noticed the
typical response on this newsgroup is if anyone doesn't agree with your
methods or tactics, they are automatically labeled a "Dan Fan". You
aren't even close on this one. This is so lubricous that I won't go
into it--except to mention that 99.9% of all Collie breeders share in your
contempt and abhorrence of Dan. However, I don't know of one rational
individual that approves of your methods-your own kangaroo court right
here on this newsgroup--trying and convicting others that are not in the
slightest way connected to the Pierce case. A good case in point is one
of the posts stating they will do T-shirts, bumper stickers, signs in
Laundromats, etc. linking a lady who doesn't even own a Collie to the
Pierce case. This is real rational, sane behavior!! It is this kind of
behavior that turns off most normal people. I think the appropriate term
for this is "backlash". Look it up. While you are at it, look up
"Kangaroo Court".
Lie #11- Mary Ann Keefer was never arrested, tried or convicted of any
animal abuse or cruelty charges. YOU Leslie Mamer are very lucky she has
never hired an attorney to go after you, because she would have an
excellent case, as would the others involved that you continually harass
and link to Dan's crimes that are his crimes alone.
Lie #12- Quote from you-- "INCLUDING but not limited to the
no-questions-asked reinstatement of a member already proven to have been
enmeshed in his crimes." "Already proven?" When did this happen-was there
a trial that I missed? A real trial or Mamer's Kangaroo Court? BTW,
Mary Ann was reinstated to the club, on a perfectly legal basis. She had
until April 1, 1997 to pay her dues on a reinstatement. The only year she
missed was 1996. So she had to pay by the next year's dues deadline.
Doug wasn't afforded the same privilege because several years had lapsed
between his membership and reapplication. That's why he was revoted on.
It is the same for everyone-no exceptions made.
Lie #13- I have not gotten any posts from people who saw your dogs at the
National. All I am aware of is one person, your roommate at that
National, who made comments right here on this newsgroup. Check it out.
Lie #14- At the 1996 National there was much two-do over the state of your
dogs. You think you are so smart--the breeder to which I have been
referring is not the one you think. I am referring to Marion Durholz, who
was overheard screaming at you regarding the conditions of your dogs. She
has made no secret of her contempt for you. Say what you want, but even
your buddy Doug admitted there was a commotion and one breeder was having
a conniption.
Lie #15- I have "Admiration (?)" for a whacked-out, old, has-been,
dried-up psycho living an out of control, deranged life in the middle of
Nebraska, with nothing better to do than to rail like a complete
lunatic?---not even close Mamer-Fortunately, not in this lifetime!!
I told you Mamer, I will not get into it with you nor will I debate this
with you any longer. It is impossible to argue intelligently or
effectively with someone that fabricates and doesn't tell the entire
truth. Compounding the lies is your complete irrational behavior-you are
on emotional overload. Soon we will be reading about your massive heart
attack---but the club will be sure to send flowers (I can't promise,
though-we'll have to take a vote!)! Basically any discussion with you is
a complete waste of time. Any further argument would only serve to inform
others and I can tell from the other postings on this newsgroup that it
would be a complete waste of time. Have a nice day, Mamer! I am outta
here!!
The Real CCAPita
NO IMITATIONS HERE!!!
ITrainDogs
>Subject: Re: COLLIE CLUB OF AMERICA BETRAYS BREED!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
>Date: 8 Aug 1997 22:50:03 GMT
>Message-ID: <19970808225...@ladder01.news.aol.com>
>Lie #8- DAN PIERCE IS NOT, WAS NOT AND NEVER HAS BEEN A MEMBER OF THE
>COLLIE CLUB OF AMERICA. I notice you conveniently fail to ever mention
>this fact in your tirades. Why or what could the club do in the case of
a
>person that is not a member? Absolutely nothing!! If he had been a
>member, the club would have dealt with it. As it was, the club had
>absolutely no authority or power to do one single thing to the man!!
FYI,
>the Club secretary did acknowledge in the April Bulletin that the AKC had
>suspended him. What else did you want her to do? Go out and shoot
>somebody?
>
Now the truth surfaces! Interesting! Thanks girl..
-Barbara Greenall
ITrainDogs
>Subject: Re: COLLIE CLUB OF AMERICA BETRAYS BREED!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
>Date: Thu, 07 Aug 1997 18:08:33 -0700
>Message-ID: <5sdnt7$a...@news2.zippo.com>
>
>ITrainDogs wrote:
>>
>> >You WANT the world to forget about the Pierce Collies??? WHY????
>> >You want the same thing to happen AGAIN??????
>> >Have you actually VIEWED those photos??? Do you also want the world
>> >to forget about concentration camps of WWII????
>> >You WANT to see this stuff happen again, and again???
>> >My GOD you're an ass!
>> Terri I'm more concerned as to why you are reacting to this topic with
>> such malice and disapproval. I've been training dogs since 1980 and
always
>> use positive reinforcement methods.
>Now THATS a lesson in convoluted logic! Have you considered submitting
>yourself into a local *denial* facility? They'd have a blast with you.
>Do you feel Pierce used *postitive refinforment?* Hell,it's not
>even negative, it's abuse, pure and simple.
No, Terri. I am really concerned for you. Your obsession with the Collies
is not healthy. Do you see others on this group, acting like you? The
frustration you are *feeling* is the result of something else in your life
that made you feel helpless, and now you are acting out in a rage.
>
> Period. But when I see others, such as
>> friends and associates, who continue to thrive on negative issues I
can't
>> help but wonder what has happened to them in their lives.
>Well, most of us in this category love animals, and dont intend to let
>another Pierce go unnoticed thouroughout life, nor his supporters.
>No, we're not the mentally afflicted, YOU are.
You won't find too many people who love animals as much as I do. But you
are now totally blinded by emotions and cannot control yourself.
>So many times,
>> recations like yours, could indicate being caught in a abusive
>> relationship, or you could be suffering from an abusive childhood.
>BAHWAHAHAHA!!!! Not even a close equal to a really good troll!Yet
>onether
>self-immersed yokel, attempting poor attempts in armchair high school-
>techno-mumbo-jumbo!
>Thanks for the smile!
Mumbo-jumbo? Isn't that another term Dogman uses frequently? You need to
find out what is really bothering you and "find yourself" so your self
esteem can be restored.
>> >> Move on!
>On Babs, I will, never fear, I WILL! Thank you for gaining even
>more attention to the questionable habits of your chapter of the
>CCAA! Thank you for giving me a torch to carry! God I LOVE the
>torch! Carried it through the tuna boycott and right through the
>Sears puppy mill activities! These grass roots movements work well!
>THANKS for calling attention to the fact that the CCAA wants to
>sweep this under the rug!( You ARE speaking for them, eh?)
> Up til now, the dog day's of August had
>little meaning, now it means the *real *heat can be turned up! You
>think the reporters are going to be content with the comment from
>the CCAA that it should be forgotten? I dont think so. They're going
>to smell something fishy and I DONT mean tuna!
> Babsy, poopsums,
>YOU can explain the your local CCAA why the media and heat has
>suddently risen, because of YOU! Up til now, the Pierce incident
>has gone largely unrecognized outside the dog world and your local
>media, NEVER FEAR.....Soon you can expect to see it on CNN and
>every single local tabloid in the supermarket! Im looking at
>bumper stickers, t-shirts, and my ever beloved color printer is
>working overtime to print out copies for everyone who asks about it!
>Including of course, your name and your flimsy reasons for covering
>the whole mess up....AINT free speech GREAT?????
>I , mean,I have access to 7 different cities every day in
>my 2 hour commute! I have access to @ 8k people every day!
>AND the web!!! God, life is good!!!!
You are now so out of control you have actually lost your ability to
logically deal with the Pierce Collies. I am not a Collie owner. I am not
a member of the CCA, nor do I know anyone personally, who is. I have been
receiving numerous letters from people who have taken different positions
about the Pierce Collies.
If you print my name in your flyers as someone who is involved in a
coverup, then you'd be a liar, period. I have no involvement with the
Pierce Collies. The matter was handled by the courts and many are unhappy
with the way the prosecutors dealt with this. Do you know why the
prosecutors backed off and offered Pierce a plea? Because they were
suspicious of the screaming lunatics who were loudly demanding hard
jailtime fir him. They smelled something funny. Do you blame them?
>> >NEVER!! I will NEVER forget those photos as long as I live! NEVER!
>> >This man should be keel hauled, and anyone who wants to *forget*
>> >the Pierce Collies should be keel hauled too. You cannot EVER
>> >call yourself a dog lover if you endorse the policy of "moving on"!
>> >You JACKASS!!!!
>> This is what I am referring to. You are afraid to let this issue go and
>> release it from your memory. You really feel I should be "keel hauled"
>> because I prefer to place myself around positive issues?
>No, just because of your ostrich head in the sand attitude....Someone
>has
>to kick you ostiches in the patoot! Im happy to do so!
>No fear here, poopys babs. Just a desire to tell the whole world what
>you are trying to cover up! Gee, if we can get the Royal Family's
>support,
>there just might be more fines involved and a re-opening of the Pierce
>case!
>Happy days!
There you are again. So pitiful and out of control, suggesting I am
involved in a coverup.
Terri, let's pretend you are driving home from work, noticed cars in the
road, slow down and witness three dead children, covered with blood and
mangled, who were just killed by a drunk driver. Would you be as angry as
you are now? Would you be printing fliers and brochures, demanding this
drunk driver be "put away" for life? Or would you be contacting your
legislators, in an effort to have harsher laws put in force? Why do you
choose impulsive, quick acting, and irrational methods, instead of ways to
really combat the issue for good?
> Your pattern of
>> abuse is now showing, loud and clear. Let it go Terri, just release the
>> hate and set yourself free, or your will never feel good about
yourself,
>> or your life.
>Actually, Babsy, Im feeling even better about myself and my life right
>now, thanks directly to YOU! I'll say a little prayer tonight before
>I retire! YOU have given me a new torch to carry and nurture! I havent
>felt
>this ALIVE in months!
That's a result of anger. And now you step out into the spotlight to
slander me when I have no connection with the Pierce Collies. Some
therapy, possibly medication, and a vacation is what your would benefits
from now. Not slandering, yelling, and seeking instant gratification that
will void your overall cause. Wake up, please.
>
>> >Shove it Babs! I will never let this "man's " cruel acts to his dogs
>> >fade away! NEVER!!!!
>> >People, NEVER forget the name of Dan Pierce or what he did to his
>> >Collies!
>> >Terri
>> Me thinks you need help, girl!
>I got it, Babsy babe, yes, thanks DIRECTLY TO YOU!!! HAHAHAHAH!
>YEOW, I feel good,,,,, *James Brown tune*......YEAH!!!!!
I don't think so Terri. I know deep down inside you are in pain. I feel
bad that you are hurting so much.
>> -Barbara Greenall
>Remember this name folks! Write your local papers, supply the
>web site and names, contact your local pet stores, post flyers,
>talk to the people you work with. Plaster this site and PICTURES
>of the Pierce Collies everywhere you can, laundry mats, vets
>offices, supermarkets... EVERYWHERE!!!!!
>And dont forget to name Barbara Greenall to the list of people
>OBJECTING to the site!!!!
>We've done it before, we can do it again!!!! GO!!!
>(Printer chugging away, hope it doesnt cause a brown out!)
>I REFUSE to GIVE UP!
>Terri
>On a mission ........
>
Yes, Terri. Remember my name. Barbara Greenall. Someone who tried to help
you and talk some logical sense into your distorted logic. What little
logic is actually left. I have searched up some dejanews articles, along
with letters from others, and have learned you became angry at some other
users, and encouraged Dogman to construct a website containing a "Sybil"
list.
We will stop for now. And maybe others will know what your are all about.
A pitiful, irrational woman who doesn't know why she's reacting the way
she is, all over some Collies that were abused and starved.
Think of those Collies, Terri. Think real hard. And when you can connect
those Collies to a pattern of past abuse in your life, you can be set
free. Let it go, Terri and rid yourself of the pain and torure that's
drving you to do irrational things.
-Barbara Greenall
FanFan1928
Being a member of the Collie Club of America can be very interesting.
Seems as if everytime there is an election, I am assigned to a different
district. Go figure.
Barbara Fletcher
Wendy Duggan
NO--it must never be forgotten.
Wendy
Kyzyl Kum Salukis - Smooth & Feathered
kyzy...@cruzio.com
Lauri Carey wrote:
>
> OK, Barb. You say you speak for 'everyone'.
>
> I prefer to hear from them myself.
>
> Please respond to this post with a simple yes or no - Are you tired of
> hearing about Dan Pierce and the collies he murdered?
>
> Lauri Carey
>
> ITrainDogs <itrai...@aol.com> wrote in article
> <19970807043...@ladder02.news.aol.com>...
> > >Subject: Re: COLLIE CLUB OF AMERICA BETRAYS BREED!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
> > >From: Jane McGroarty <jmc...@interport.net>
> > >Date: Wed, 06 Aug 1997 20:23:01 -0400
> > >Message-ID: <33E915...@interport.net>
> >
> snipped
>
> > Everyone is tired of hearing about it. That's my only point.
> >
> > -Barbara Greenall
> >