ear cropping and tail docking
Christy
<shary...@my-deja.com> wrote in message
news:8a1gtd$j26$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
> I agree that this topic has been done to death. I have to say tho,
> that I find it interesting that people that are so concerned about
> rescue and the exploitation of dogs by the BYB can justify so easilythe
> cutting off of a dogs ears because it looks good.
I'd say the reason that most folks here are pro-docking and cropping and
anti-BYB and puppy-mill is that the act of docking and cropping does not
produce unhealthy puppies or add to the problem of dog overpopulation. I
suppose when the problem of misbreeders who are only out for profit is
solved (and thank you AKC for helping by enacting the Frequently Used Sire
program, which has the puppy millers in an uproar!!) then the "issue" of
docking and cropping may command more attention.
Just curious. Why do you feel docking tails is acceptable and not cropping?
I know of many folks who feel that neither procedure is acceptable. I know
of many folks who feel both are acceptable. But to support the cosmetic
procedure of tail docking and NOT the cosmetic procedure of ear cropping,
well, that seems odd to me! All of the anti-cropping folk seem to be
anti-docking as well. The argument that tails are done at a young age and
ears are not doesn't hold water as neither is necessarily required to be
done at all. I'm not anti-docking and cropping though - I feel it is a
personal choice and support those breeders who breed to the standard and as
such perform these procedures. If someone dislikes the procedure, that is
fine, as everyone has the right to their opinion, but they shouldn't try to
REMOVE the choice from other people. If members of the breed club work to
change the standard to allow natural ears and tails, and those dogs can
compete in the show ring and not suffer prejudices, that is great.
But I find it REALLY odd that someone would be so anti-cropping and
pro-docking. Just really odd. I can't wait for your explanation! :)
Christy
Lisasv1
tail was docked, but her ears were never cropped. We all thought she was
cute with her floppy ears. She still got regular grooming at the salon and
was well taken care of.
In my own opinion, if a dog is going to be shown in dog shows, then sure....
do the cosmetic surgery. But if they are just going to be sold as pets, I
think the slicing of their body parts should be considered cruel and should
be outlawed.
ElizabethK <eliza...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:38c48f0c...@news.earthlink.net...
> On Tue, 07 Mar 2000 00:01:51 GMT, shary...@my-deja.com wrote:
>
> >I agree that this topic has been done to death. I have to say tho,
> >that I find it interesting that people that are so concerned about
> >rescue and the exploitation of dogs by the BYB can justify so easilythe
> >cutting off of a dogs ears because it looks good.
>
> The cropping of ears and docking of tails doesn't usually mean that
> the dog will end up in a small wire crate, in a row, along with
> thousands of other dogs, sometimes in an open field with only a metal
> roof for shelter and open sides. It doesn't mean that the dog will
> spend almost it's entire life pregnant and when too old dumped or shot
> out in a field somewhere and buried quickly so nobody sees.
> It doesn't usually mean that it will be lucky to be fed and watered
> regularly.
> It doesn't mean that it will never be wormed.
> It doesn't mean that it will never be given medical attention if sick.
> It doesn't mean that it will be left to die if trouble occurs during
> whelping.
> It doesn't mean that it will be so matted that it's skin actually is
> torn apart over the years.
> It doesn't mean that it will never be free of fleas.
> It doesn't mean that it will never know a friendly pat or kind word.
> Nothing says that because it's got ears and a tail it's life was
> good.
> Mostly docked tails heal within about 3 or 4 days.
> Ears are carefully tended and taped and I have seen litters of happy
> cropped Great Dane puppies playing and tugging on each other's ears
> without so much as a whimper within days of being cropped.
> I personally have breeds which are cropped and docked. Not all are.
> That was my preference. But I still am disgusted by puppy mills and
> the average backyard breeder.
> And should I come back as a dog and be given a choice of being a puppy
> mill dog or a cropped and docked one - well I know which I whould
> chose!
> Liz
shary...@my-deja.com
that I find it interesting that people that are so concerned about
rescue and the exploitation of dogs by the BYB can justify so easilythe
cutting off of a dogs ears because it looks good.
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
DogStar716
>that I find it interesting that people that are so concerned about
>rescue and the exploitation of dogs by the BYB can justify so easilythe
>cutting off of a dogs ears because it looks good.
My dog has ears. They were not CUT OFF.
Dogstar716
Come see Gunnars Life: http://hometown.aol.com/dogstar716/index.html
ElizabethK
>I agree that this topic has been done to death. I have to say tho,
>that I find it interesting that people that are so concerned about
>rescue and the exploitation of dogs by the BYB can justify so easilythe
>cutting off of a dogs ears because it looks good.
The cropping of ears and docking of tails doesn't usually mean that
MaryBeth
"Lisasv1" <Lis...@email.msn.com> wrote in message
news:u4LPt7$h$GA.70@cpmsnbbsa02...
> In my own opinion, if a dog is going to be shown in dog shows, then
sure....
> do the cosmetic surgery. But if they are just going to be sold as pets, I
> think the slicing of their body parts should be considered cruel and
should
> be outlawed.
Now see? This doesn't make any sense to me.
If it is to be considered so *cruel* and should be *outlawed* then why
in the world should it be allowed for show dogs??
It isn't cruel and it isn't painful if done at the proper time, and by a
competent breeder/vet.
When I first came here years ago, I thought the same way. But by getting
to know the ppl that *are* very credible in many other ways, and hearing
them tell me over and over, from many of them, that it isn't cruel, I happen
to believe them. They aren't the type of ppl that have a record of lying,
especially when it comes to the safety of their, or any, dogs.
What I'm saying is that if you think it's cruel, *except* when showing,
how does that make any sense????? I'm really not jumping on you here, I
really want to know what kind of logical answer you have.
FWIW I also happen to think that if I had a few dogs of the breeds that
are usually cropped and docked, I'd probably do the 'show' dogs and not the
'pet' dogs, so we are on the same page with that. But to call one cruel and
the other not, doesn't make sense. If you don't care for it, and there's no
need for it, (i.e. not showing), then don't do it. I wouldn't. But you can't
say it's okay for one, and not for the other, especially when you're not
just giving an opinion, as you are with 'thinking' it's cruel, but actually
*advocating* a *law* to stop it from being done.
There is a vast difference in these two views. Do you understand what I
mean here? I hope so, and I hope you don't take this the wrong way. This is
only meant to point out something I don't understand, at all, and ask for
your reasons. Perhaps make you think a little about the two different views.
:)
MaryBeth
Solaris Dobermans
rescue work with both Dobes and Basenji's, and is also pro-
cropping/docking.
I can tell you that I WOULD NEVER EVER put my dogs or puppies through
"torture" therefore I firmly believe the procedures in no way harm the
dog when done by a professional person.
Now, take my right to have those procedures done, and you will see more
and more dogs like the ones I get into rescue where the ears have been
hacked off because the vet was not properly "trained" on how to crop,
or did not properly instruct the owners how to post ears therefore they
had to go back and make them shorter in order to stand. Or...if it is
completely outlawed....see the dogs with home made crops that look like
butchers have done the job...and it happens!!!!!!! I just placed one
like that. Poor girl had NO EARS and the scar tissue was horrid!
Now, the backyard breeders, puppy mills, etc. are the main contributors
to these botched jobs because ETHICAL breeders have them done by
trained professional people before the puppies are sold and ETHICAL
breeders are there for their puppy owners to walk them through every
step to insure proper taping, posting, cleanliness, care, and proper
ear carriage.
Also, 95% of the people that come to me wanting to adopt a Doberman
want a CROPPED/DOCKED dog. So, I would suggest you taking in all the
non cropped/docked Dobes and trying to find homes for them, then come
back here and tell us your experiences. Then again...how about telling
us what you are doing for rescue?????? Any type of rescue??
Kumiko Wilkison
Solaris Dobermans
Ohio Valley Doberman & Basenji Rescue
In article <8a1gtd$j26$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>,
shary...@my-deja.com wrote:
> I agree that this topic has been done to death. I have to say tho,
> that I find it interesting that people that are so concerned about
> rescue and the exploitation of dogs by the BYB can justify so
easilythe
> cutting off of a dogs ears because it looks good.
>
DogStar716
>do the cosmetic surgery. But if they are just going to be sold as pets, I
>think the slicing of their body parts should be considered cruel
So, you think just because a person is going to show a dog, that it's going to
be a totally different type of operation? Not.
My dog is cropped, he is NOT shown in breed, and he is completely happy, well
cared for and loved, and has never had any trauma associated with his ears. It
was MY preference, the operation was done at the right age, with a knowledgable
vet, and diligent aftercare. No problems at all.
And you know? I also had my sons circumcised. Oh the horror!
chingus
are cutting off his nuts...I would think a dog would want his ears cropped
or tail docked before you cut his nuts off....just think about it....
Lisasv1
heard them screaming from the other room when they were babies. I'm glad
they were able to forget about the pain. But I think they will be happy
someday it was done. As for dogs, other than estedic reasons, I don't see
any reason why it is necessary for cutting off pieces of their bodies. How
do these people "know" it doesn't hurt? Have they ever broken their tail
bone? I did, and it hurt VERY much.
It's just become popular to mutilate these dogs when their young and so
society has just accepted it to be ok and they like to brainwash themselves
to think it doesn't hurt. But I'd but my bottom dollar that if someone cut
off your ear, it would definantly hurt!
DogStar716 <dogst...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20000307094804...@ng-de1.aol.com...
Solaris Dobermans
nothing about. WE DON'T BREAK TAIL BONES!!!!!! And...do you think we
crop ears with the puppies awake?????? "Here Billy Bob..hold the
squirrly thing while I fix to cut his ears and tail off" For crying
out loud!
I'm so soooooooo sick of this discussion!
In article <OrnTphHi$GA.253@cpmsnbbsa05>,
DogStar716
Why? Its not a health problem if they aren't circumcised, it's all for looks.
And your babies obviously weren't given a local anethestic to make it painless;
my boys were and they didn't feel a thing. Just like my dog didn't feel
anything when his ears were cropped.
>t's just become popular to mutilate these dogs when their young and so
>society has just accepted it to be ok
Here, lets rewrite the above, but we'll use circumcision as the example::
>t's just become popular to mutilate these BABY BOYS when their young and so
>society has just accepted it to be ok
>and they like to brainwash themselves
>to think it doesn't hurt. But I'd but my bottom dollar that if someone cut
>off your FORESKIN, it would definantly hurt!
>
Welcome to the mutilation club! You really shouldn't throw stones....
ElizabethK
.......to say nothing of circumcising children with no pain killers or
anaesthetics. And much of the world is now getting away from doing
that these days too. And many grown men are having the procedure
reversed.
Liz
Nancy Holmes or Nelson Ruffin
many seem to cling to it!
Nancy
<sigh>news:OrnTphHi$GA.253@cpmsnbbsa05...
> I also had both my sons circumcised, and it was very painful for them. I
> heard them screaming from the other room when they were babies. I'm glad
> they were able to forget about the pain. But I think they will be happy
> someday it was done. As for dogs, other than estedic reasons, I don't see
> any reason why it is necessary for cutting off pieces of their bodies.
How
> do these people "know" it doesn't hurt? Have they ever broken their tail
> bone? I did, and it hurt VERY much.
> society has just accepted it to be ok and they like to brainwash
themselves
> to think it doesn't hurt. But I'd but my bottom dollar that if someone
cut
>
> DogStar716 <dogst...@aol.com> wrote in message
> news:20000307094804...@ng-de1.aol.com...
> > >In my own opinion, if a dog is going to be shown in dog shows, then
> sure....
> > >do the cosmetic surgery. But if they are just going to be sold as
pets,
> I
> > >think the slicing of their body parts should be considered cruel
> >
> >
> > So, you think just because a person is going to show a dog, that it's
> going to
> > be a totally different type of operation? Not.
> >
> > My dog is cropped, he is NOT shown in breed, and he is completely happy,
> well
> > cared for and loved, and has never had any trauma associated with his
> ears. It
> > was MY preference, the operation was done at the right age, with a
> knowledgable
> > vet, and diligent aftercare. No problems at all.
> >
> > And you know? I also had my sons circumcised. Oh the horror!
> >
> >
> >
MaryBeth
"ElizabethK" <eliza...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
And many grown men are having the procedure
> reversed.
> Liz
>
Did their moms keep the extra skin around....just in case????
MaryBeth <WEG>
ElizabethK
wrote:
Well MaryBeth, I don't know the exact details, but I hear it's
becoming a popular thing to do - according to Dr.Dean Edel on talk
radio anyway, who has made this one of his major causes in life. Maybe
we will get first hand information here from someone who has been the
recipient of the procedure.
Enquiring minds and all that....
Liz
Gwen Watson
ElizabethK wrote:
> On Tue, 07 Mar 2000 14:59:14 GMT, "chingus" <chin...@home.com> wrote:
>
> >What is wrong with...Cropping a dogs ears...when you neuter...the dog...you
> >are cutting off his nuts...I would think a dog would want his ears cropped
> >or tail docked before you cut his nuts off....just think about it....
> >
> .......to say nothing of circumcising children with no pain killers or
> anaesthetics. And much of the world is now getting away from doing
> that these days too. And many grown men are having the procedure
> reversed.
> Liz
Now this I can not see or believe. Not that I am totally
doubting, I just can not imagine any grown man wanting
anyone happering with his pride and joy. Just seems as
though they have lived with it like this a lifetime why
in the world would they want to reverse something
that causes sooooo many health problems in their
partners?
I'm just being curious and definately not wanting
to start an argument, but sort of wanting some
details or facts on this subject.
Gwen
Gwen Watson
ElizabethK wrote:
> Well MaryBeth, I don't know the exact details, but I hear it's
> becoming a popular thing to do - according to Dr.Dean Edel on talk
> radio anyway, who has made this one of his major causes in life. Maybe
> we will get first hand information here from someone who has been the
> recipient of the procedure.
> Enquiring minds and all that....
> Liz
Now you have that right! Enquiring minds do definately
want to know.
The only men I can think of that would allow anyone
to touch their pride and joy are those that have decided
to become women instead of men and they have the
whole thing snipped off. At least I am having trouble
buying into this.
Gwem
Gwen Watson
Mays wrote:
> Well, I am not a recipient <WEG>, but there was a program on the telly
> on this subject a while ago. What they do is take a tiny piece of
> remaining skin and culture it, then use the cultured skin for a graft.
> Seems like a waste of time to me...
>
Not only a waste but a well known health risk to their
female partners they share intimate relationships with.
I can't imagine why anyone would put theirselves
through the unnecessary pain and cost, just so they
could be 'al la naturale". Seems very masochistic somehow
to me.
> Ruth Mays
> Cinnaminson NJ
> --
> I'm not disorganized- I have an organization which is beyond comprehension.
Gwen
DogStar716
>to start an argument, but sort of wanting some
>details or facts on this subject.
>
I have never heard of a circumcised man reverting to his natural state because
wouldn't that involve skin grafting and stuff? And I highly doubt there would
be any feeling left or anything, so yuk!
But, I do know that men can be circumcised later in life, and some opt for that
surgery.
Gwen Watson
DogStar716 wrote:
> >I'm just being curious and definately not wanting
> >to start an argument, but sort of wanting some
> >details or facts on this subject.
> >
>
> I have never heard of a circumcised man reverting to his natural state because
> wouldn't that involve skin grafting and stuff? And I highly doubt there would
> be any feeling left or anything, so yuk!
>
>
Like I said in another post I have heard of men whowanted sex changes to opt to
allow Dr to mess
with their "pride and joy" especially since in their
circumstances it is not considered a "pride and joy"
but an unwanted apparatus.
I have never heard of any man that would opt to be
messed with in order to go back to the way they
entered this world. Somehow it just doesn't make any sense
to me.
>
>
> Dogstar716
> Come see Gunnars Life: http://hometown.aol.com/dogstar716/index.html
Gwen
DogStar716
>messed with in order to go back to the way they
>entered this world. Somehow it just doesn't make any sense
>to me.
Me neither, and I honestly don't see how they physically could.
I can picture the scene:
Dr: "Well, putting back your foreskin will involve alot of stretching and skin
grafts, and you probably won't have any feeling in the foreskin itself, and you
won't be able to use it for at least 6 months"
Man: "Stretching? Skin grafts? And no sex for 6 MONTHS??? Forget it!"
:)
Gwen Watson
DogStar716 wrote:
> Dr: "Well, putting back your foreskin will involve alot of stretching and skin
> grafts, and you probably won't have any feeling in the foreskin itself, and you
> won't be able to use it for at least 6 months"
>
> Man: "Stretching? Skin grafts? And no sex for 6 MONTHS??? Forget it!"
>
> :)
Yep, but you did leave out the NO feeling part!<VBG>
It just doesn't add up in my book, especially not
with any man I have ever known.
Now
enlargement is a whole different ballpark
for men. One that some men who are
not as fortunate as others would more
than likely opt for.
Gwen
ElizabethK
>>I have never heard of any man that would opt to be
>>messed with in order to go back to the way they
>>entered this world. Somehow it just doesn't make any sense
>>to me.
>
>Me neither, and I honestly don't see how they physically could.
>
>I can picture the scene:
>
>Dr: "Well, putting back your foreskin will involve alot of stretching and skin
>grafts, and you probably won't have any feeling in the foreskin itself, and you
>won't be able to use it for at least 6 months"
>
>Man: "Stretching? Skin grafts? And no sex for 6 MONTHS??? Forget it!"
>
>:)
This is far from "uncommon" and I have been hearing programs about it
for at least the last two years. And more especially now that the
thinking about it giving women problems has pretty much been disproved
by the medical community.
On very extensive surveys done on many thousands of women, the rate of
problems was no different whether their sex partners were or were not
circumcised.
One would also hope that the custom of circumcising women as is done
in many countries still, will soon be a thing of the past. And
thinking about that, I think I'd rather have my ears cropped.
Liz
Lisa D.
> . . . Mostly docked tails heal within about 3 or 4 days.
> Ears are carefully tended and taped and I have seen litters of happy
> cropped Great Dane puppies playing and tugging on each other's ears
Last week I was able to watch a licensed D.V.M. crop the ears of a
litter
of Doberman pups. I can say that the pups were not even phased by their
crops, not phased one bit. I, however, was WORN OUT from playing with
each puppy (which eventually turned into playing with ALL 8 puppies) for
hours as each was done with the entire procedure.
The next day, the puppies were just as energetic and wore me out once
again...
--
Lisa Ldouz@earthlinkdotnet
(replace "dot" to email)
Solaris Dobermans
over you. I can't wait for my litter this summer! I can almost smell
the puppy breath and see the lil' cup heads running around.
LoL,
Kumi
In article <38C7B3...@no-spam.net>,
shary...@my-deja.com
cropping ears at twelve weeks, not by a long shot!!! I,too, believe
that it is a choice and that if the "cropped dog" people want to
continue with this practice then so be it. There are many articles
written by Veterinarians that add to the argument that cropping is an
uneccesary procedure and, indeed is painful. I am not saying that one
should stop doing it, just be honest about it and don't try and justify
cropping by saying that it is not painful, how ludicrous. The post
that talked about playing with the Dobee's while they were being
cropped must have been referring to the before certainly not the after
since these pups have to "wake up" from the surgery before they can
play for sure. Crop if you want, its a personal choice and I am not
going to get on a radical bandwagon about it. Debarking is another
thing, I do not like that either, I just bypassed a dog that I really
wanted to add to my breeding program because he is debarked and I
personally can't abide watching the dogs trying to bark. Again,
personal choice. My argument is that when anyone in this group does
something that is controversial it is justified. You make it sound
like these pups look forward to their little cups on their heads.
Please!!! Bthe way, off the subject but the "Leeza" show is doing a
show on APBT"s and it is a pro APBT not an anti APBT!!
They are talking about the fighters and the new laws governing
fighting, but they also have a forum about the APBT as a family pet.
and n article <8a27lr$3c2$1...@slb7.atl.mindspring.net>,
"Christy" <cool...@nospamix.netcom.com> wrote:
>
> <shary...@my-deja.com> wrote in message
> news:8a1gtd$j26$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
> > I agree that this topic has been done to death. I have to say tho,
> > that I find it interesting that people that are so concerned about
> > rescue and the exploitation of dogs by the BYB can justify so
easilythe
> > cutting off of a dogs ears because it looks good.
>
and
> anti-BYB and puppy-mill is that the act of docking and cropping does
not
> produce unhealthy puppies or add to the problem of dog
overpopulation. I
> suppose when the problem of misbreeders who are only out for profit is
> solved (and thank you AKC for helping by enacting the Frequently Used
Sire
> program, which has the puppy millers in an uproar!!) then the "issue"
of
> docking and cropping may command more attention.
> Just curious. Why do you feel docking tails is acceptable and not
cropping?
> I know of many folks who feel that neither procedure is acceptable. I
know
> of many folks who feel both are acceptable. But to support the
cosmetic
> procedure of tail docking and NOT the cosmetic procedure of ear
cropping,
> well, that seems odd to me! All of the anti-cropping folk seem to be
> anti-docking as well. The argument that tails are done at a young age
and
> ears are not doesn't hold water as neither is necessarily required to
be
> done at all. I'm not anti-docking and cropping though - I feel it is a
> personal choice and support those breeders who breed to the standard
and as
> such perform these procedures. If someone dislikes the procedure,
that is
> fine, as everyone has the right to their opinion, but they shouldn't
try to
> REMOVE the choice from other people. If members of the breed club
work to
> change the standard to allow natural ears and tails, and those dogs
can
> compete in the show ring and not suffer prejudices, that is great.
> But I find it REALLY odd that someone would be so anti-cropping and
> pro-docking. Just really odd. I can't wait for your explanation! :)
>
> Christy
Solaris Dobermans
By the way, can you tell us more about your breeding program????
In article <8a8hmb$lh9$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>,
Denna Pace
<solar...@my-deja.com> wrote:
>It's Dobes, Dobies, Dobermans, or Dobermanns..not Dobees.
>
>By the way, can you tell us more about your breeding program????
>
Or velcro dogs. Can't forget that one.
Hey, at least she didn't call them "doobies." ;-)
Denna
"Egotism is the anesthetic given by a kindly nature to relieve the
pain of being a damned fool." -Bellamy Brooks
The Official Site for the upcoming Unofficial RPD Par-tay:
http://www.picantes.com/partay
http://www.picantes.com/pitbull - The Real Pit Bull
http://www.picantes.com/caleb - Come admire my puppy!
http://www.picantes.com/sameold - Are you an unethical Backyard Breedeer or Puppymill?
Shea Kelley
Shea
DogStar716
>cropping ears
<sarcasm mode very on>
Oh, but doesn't this also cause the dog pain? I mean, come on, there has to be
at least a twinge of pain when they chop the tail off?
And don't forget spaying and neutering! I mean, those stitches may be painful,
there may be infection later, and this can be all painful for the dog. A
person who is really against causing dogs any kind of pain will be a diligent
dog owner and never let their unaltered pets out of their site.
I mean, to use your words "just be honest about it and don't try to justify
*insert surgery here* by saying that it is not painful, how ludicrous".
DogStar716
>IThis is easy, docking a tail at three days old does not equate with
>cropping ears at twelve weeks, not by a long shot!!
And oh yeah, do you dock the tails of these little Poo MIXES you breed?
Solaris Dobermans
dogst...@aol.com (DogStar716) wrote:
> >
> >IThis is easy, docking a tail at three days old does not equate with
> >cropping ears at twelve weeks, not by a long shot!!
>
> And oh yeah, do you dock the tails of these little Poo MIXES you
breed?
>
> Dogstar716
That would explain it....I was wondering about her "breeding program".
> Come see Gunnars Life: http://hometown.aol.com/dogstar716/index.html
>
>
Lisa D.
Cropping is usually done at 8, 9 or 10 weeks...
> I,too, believe
> that it is a choice and that if the "cropped dog" people want to
> continue with this practice then so be it. There are many articles
> written by Veterinarians that add to the argument that cropping is an
> uneccesary procedure and, indeed is painful. I am not saying that one
> should stop doing it, just be honest about it and don't try and justify
> cropping by saying that it is not painful, how ludicrous. The post
> that talked about playing with the Dobee's while they were being
> cropped
No, I did not write that I played with them WHILE they were being
cropped,
> must have been referring to the before certainly not the after
> since these pups have to "wake up" from the surgery before they can
> play for sure.
I wrote:
"I, however, was WORN OUT from playing with each puppy (which
eventually turned into playing with ALL 8 puppies) for hours
as each was done with the entire procedure."
Yes, I played with them AFTER each pup was done with the ENTIRE
procedure,
entire procedure meaning after each pup woke up...
> Crop if you want, its a personal choice and I am not
> going to get on a radical bandwagon about it. Debarking is another
> thing, I do not like that either, I just bypassed a dog that I really
> wanted to add to my breeding program because he is debarked and I
> personally can't abide watching the dogs trying to bark. Again,
> personal choice. My argument is that when anyone in this group does
> something that is controversial it is justified. You make it sound
> like these pups look forward to their little cups on their heads.
> Please!!!
I'll tell you...(and this pertains ONLY to Dobermans bought from
unethical and irresponsible puppy producers) the people who get a
Doberman but think the ear cropping is torture, almost ALWAYS change
their minds. So, what happens? Well I'll tell you what happens...
Doberman puppy is now 6, 7, 8 months or MORE old and ends up at the
mercy of Jo(e) Schmucko bargain "hack ear cropper" who is NOT licensed
to practice veterinary medicine.
-Jo(e) Schmucko bargain "hack ear cropper" only wants $40.00 or $50.00
to crop.
-Jo(e) Schmucko bargain "hack ear cropper" doesn't use sterile
equipment.
-Jo(e) Schmucko bargain "hack ear cropper" uses a mish-mash of whatever
can be obtained cheaply for anesthesia.
-Jo(e) Schmucko bargain "hack ear cropper" uses poulty shears to cut the
ear leather.
-Jo(e) Schmucko bargain "hack ear cropper's" sutures make a tressed
Thanksgiving turkey look like a FINELY STITCHED LINEN.
-Jo(e) Schmucko bargain "hack ear cropper" ALWAYS crops both pup's ears
in the same direction (IOWs pup appears to have TWO left leaning ears or
TWO right leaning ears).
-Jo(e) Schmucko bargain "hack ear cropper" uses duct tape to tape the
ears up.
-Jo(e) Schmucko bargain "hack ear cropper" who is not licensed to
practice veterinary medicine and can't get the Doberman puppy to stop
bleeding because
Jo(e) has no clue about clotting factors, thinks MORE duct tape wrapped
tightly
WILL stop the bleeding.
-Jo(e) Schmucko bargain "hack ear cropper" now gives profusely bleeding
puppy back to owner.
Then what happens? After the owner realizes that the puppy may be in
grave danger, owner calls the vet (the same vet I watched do the ear
crops). Only NOW,
the vet is not only trying to save the life of the pup, but also has to
fix the hack ear crop.
Okay, so you've read all that and that's all the more reason to OUTLAW
cropping and docking procedures, right? WRONG!!!! People are going to
have these procedure done anyways!!! Get it??? People will continue to
have their dogs docked and cropped. Outlaw those procedures and there
will be more dogs now at the mercy MORE Jo(e) Schmucko bargain "hack ear
croppers". DUH!
My friend's vet practice has seen a rise in emergency cases that are
just as I described. So, do I now need to repeat WHY responsible and
ethical breeders of cropped/docked breeds (at least in the USA) ALWAYS
(except in a few cases) make sure their pups are cropped and docked (by
licensed veterinary professionals) before going to their new homes????
Jeez...
Christy
<shary...@my-deja.com> wrote in message
news:8a8hmb$lh9$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
> IThis is easy, docking a tail at three days old does not equate with
> cropping ears at twelve weeks, not by a long shot!!!
Why? Prove your claim, please. Docking a tail - amputation, removal of
tissue and bone. Cropping ears - removal of tissue, no bone. Tail docking
sounds much more more of a "mutilation" from that aspect. If you dock tails
you are just as much of a "mutilator."
I,too, believe
> that it is a choice and that if the "cropped dog" people want to
> continue with this practice then so be it. There are many articles
> written by Veterinarians that add to the argument that cropping is an
> uneccesary procedure and, indeed is painful.
And just as many say that about docking tails. So explain why tails are ok?
Do you breed a docked breed, by any chance?
I am not saying that one
> should stop doing it, just be honest about it and don't try and justify
> cropping by saying that it is not painful, how ludicrous. The post
> that talked about playing with the Dobee's while they were being
> cropped must have been referring to the before certainly not the after
> since these pups have to "wake up" from the surgery before they can
> play for sure.
Are you calling that poster a liar? Not nice.
Crop if you want, its a personal choice and I am not
> going to get on a radical bandwagon about it. Debarking is another
> thing, I do not like that either, I just bypassed a dog that I really
> wanted to add to my breeding program because he is debarked and I
> personally can't abide watching the dogs trying to bark. Again,
> personal choice. My argument is that when anyone in this group does
> something that is controversial it is justified.
Really? Like what? Cropping ears and debarking? Hardly controversial. Puppy
milling? Misbreeding? We don't have any of those folks here... do we?
Christy
ElizabethK
> Debarking is another
>thing, I do not like that either, I just bypassed a dog that I really
>wanted to add to my breeding program because he is debarked and I
>personally can't abide watching the dogs trying to bark.
Hmm. Maybe I missed your posts about what you show/breed and wasn't
aware that you had a breeding programme either so maybe you would
write about it again. Always interested in those who are on the
improvement end rather than "the other" end of dog breeding.
However, let me add my thoughts and what little knowledge I have,
about debarking.
Debarked dogs don't "Try to bark". They bark exactly like they did
before the process. The ONLY difference is that the sound they make is
usually less piercing to the human ear, and on a much lower key. And
every debarked dog has a different level. Done early the sound they
make when barking is less. Done later, the sound is often more
pronounced but still loud enough for the owner to hear but not the
neighbours.
Debarking most certainly has it's place in modern society. And not all
dogs can be trained easily not to bark. In many elder apartments
buildings the elderly may keep a dog as long as it is debarked. Sounds
like a great plan to me. Dogs are wonderful company but those who have
them don't have to worry about them annoying those who don't. Some
breeds are particularly barky and for the fanciers of those breeds who
have many, well it can keep the noise level down to a lower "roar"!
Please don't think that the dogs know that there is anything
different at all after the operation as opposed to before. Barkers
will still remain barkers and the only difference is that after the op
they don't get scolded nearly as often.
About the operation. It takes about as long as it will take me to tell
you about it.
Dog has no dinner the night before. No big deal.
Dog goes to the Vet next morning. Quick needle in front leg. Dog is
asleep. Nurse or owner holds dog. Vet opens mouth. Snip.
Vet closes dog's mouth. Vet direct owner to recovery room.
That's it. That's all. It's that quick.
Usually takes about 25 mins for the dog to come around. Very little
bleeding if any.
Just water that night.
Soft food next day.
After that back to normal.
Happy little dog barking it's head off and none the wiser.
This simple operation has saved many a dog from being killed by angry
neighbours. It has saved thousands more from going to the pound.
It has helped many elderly keep their pets when going to elder
apartments.
I have never, ever seen anything wrong with the debarking of dogs at
all.
I have two who are debarked here and have had some to came to me that
way. I have seen the op done several times. I only wish the
neighbours behind me would get their little dog debarked since he's
deaf and barks all day when they are gone. Of course when I suggested
it they thought it was soooo cruel, yet one day his constant barking
could be his downfall - or theirs.
Now about your not wanting to breed to a dog you like because he was
debarked. Well that's just about the craziest thing I have heard
today.
If there is a dog who is perfect for my bitch and has the pedigree I
seek etc. and I don't like something his owner does, believe me if it
will further the quality of the breed I will breed to him. Nothing
says I have to like the owner to produce a top quality litter by using
her stud dog. Thats pretty childish. If you have quality dogs in mind
then you breed to the best dog you can whether he's debarked or his
owner has green hair or wears cowboy boots!
None of that matters!
Liz
Again,
>personal choice. My argument is that when anyone in this group does
>something that is controversial it is justified. You make it sound
>like these pups look forward to their little cups on their heads.
>Please!!! Bthe way, off the subject but the "Leeza" show is doing a
>show on APBT"s and it is a pro APBT not an anti APBT!!
>They are talking about the fighters and the new laws governing
>fighting, but they also have a forum about the APBT as a family pet.
>and n article <8a27lr$3c2$1...@slb7.atl.mindspring.net>,
> "Christy" <cool...@nospamix.netcom.com> wrote:
>>
>> <shary...@my-deja.com> wrote in message
Nancy Holmes or Nelson Ruffin
Lisa D. <Breed_re...@no-spam.net> wrote in message
news:38C800...@no-spam.net...
> shary...@my-deja.com wrote:
snip some good comments about bad croppers
>
> My friend's vet practice has seen a rise in emergency cases that are
Bad news is Joe Hacker can be a licensed vet too and the good guy can be Mr
or Ms LayPerson ear cropper who ONLY specializes in that.
As for an increase in emergency care cases - I have yet to figure out why
someone (read a veterinarian) doing an OK job of cropping suddenly needs
2-400 dollars per pup to crop and won't do litters (oh just sell the pup and
send the new owner to me - Like I would do that!) when I could get a
superior job done on the entire litter for $35-50 per pup as an alternative.
(and yes in a vet clinic and all by a licensed vet who shows) When the vet
I used moved south I found I was surrounded by high priced incompetents or
vets who refused to do cropping at all. Choices are go out of state or
import someone who does a great job or skip cropping at all.
I measure ear cropping ability by quality of the job (which includes look,
speed and carefulness), care for the pups health during and after the
procedure, and finally cost and willingness to work with a breeder vs.
wanting only to control the new pet owner's cash flow. IME Sometimes you get
that from a vet and sometimes you don't.
Nancy
RihadinK9
>think the slicing of their body parts should be considered cruel and should
>be outlawed.
>
Sort of like circumsion..............
jonbgood
done for a good reason. I won't say that I admire [?] people
who are against it, but I do understand and respect where they
are coming from. If you don't like it---don't do it. Maybe one
day in the future, maybe we'll be able to do it with some sort
of gene surgery. Of course, people will probably not like that
either.
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